----- Original Message -----
From: "Errol Cavit" <ecavit@tranzrail.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Compel Obedience


> [snip good points, especially the bits about closing GM loopholes after
> down-powering the spell]

I'm not sure my point was understood. You cannot legislate for closing DM
loopholes. The nature of DMing leads one to look for  holes to exploit. It's
inevitable.

In the event that DMs in generalbelieve that spells are unreasonably
powerful, then they not only look for a variety of loopholes to apply
against it, but they collect other DMs loopholes until the spell is
valueless.


> Clare
> > > > If the spell isn't meant to be able to be used on hostile
> > targets rename
> > > > it Charm. If it is meant to be used on hostile targets
> > then lets allow
> > > > their obedience to be compelled, rather than letting the
> > Namer give them
> > > > suggestions and hope they'll listen.
>
>
> Jim
> > That said, however, one has to ask what the point is of
> > having two mind
> > control spells not only in the same college, but in the same body of
> > knowledge.
> >
> > I see no major problem with them having it, but as a Namer, I
> > don't think
> > I'd bother learning charm. Especially now that Compelling
> > Obedience does
> > pretty much the same thing AND lets me issue instructions in
> > any language.
> >
>
> Sorry, I don't follow this point. Namers only have Compel, Clare suggested
> renaming it to Charm (any presumably making it the same as the E&E to save
a
> bit of hassle) as it now seems too wimpy. They used to have Charm too?
>
> I asked someone a while back 'why do Namers have Compel anyway?', and was
> told that it reflects the power of Names. This is now covered in the
college
> intro, and it all seems to hang together reasonably IMO.

I didn't know that they had lost their Charm spell. I don't mind that they
lost it. I was unaware that they had, however.


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At 16:01 4/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
>However, as the campaign is what players and GMs make it, I would like to
>know what Mind mages who use it expect from Undetectability, as that may
>help us to understand the problem. If what they want is to be invulnerable
>in combat, we can't help them, but if what they really mean is "I vant to be
>alone", or "I like to get a spell off before the bad guys see me", or "I
>like to run and hide", or "I love to fool storm troopers", or "I like to
>watch - so what?", thats five different effects that are all possible.

Okay - as a player of one of the aforementioned Mind Mages and GM I expect 
Indetectability to conceal a character by what I've heard described as a 
"Somebody Else's Problem" effect. It's not so much that the character is 
not seen, but that the character is ignored. One of the best renditions of 
this into gaming comes from White Wolf with their "obfuscate" ability.

Now, those of you who know me well enough will know that I rarely have 
anything positive to say about White Wolf - but it does seem to me that 
they have got it right regarding some of the traditional powers of vampires 
- and in DQ almost all vampires are mind mages. Their "invisibility for 
vampires" or obfuscate seems to work, so maybe we should try applying it to 
DQ (we've lifted ideas liberally from just about every other game system).

The key point is that obfuscate does get more powerful as it is ranked - 
and that the mind mage would be able to perform increasing intrusive acts 
and retain the spell's effect as they gain higher ranks in the spell. This 
makes sense to me, and it would certainly encourage ranking the spell, and 
let's not forget that it's got a pretty high EM.

Jacqui


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacqui Smith" <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Invulnerability spell needs to be fixed... again.



>
> Okay - as a player of one of the aforementioned Mind Mages and GM I expect
> Indetectability to conceal a character by what I've heard described as a
> "Somebody Else's Problem" effect.

Just a simple identification of how you expect it to work is all that's
called for. It doesn't matter if you DM, at all.

 It's not so much that the character is
> not seen, but that the character is ignored. One of the best renditions of
> this into gaming comes from White Wolf with their "obfuscate" ability.
>
> Now, those of you who know me well enough will know that I rarely have
> anything positive to say about White Wolf - but it does seem to me that
> they have got it right regarding some of the traditional powers of
vampires > - and in DQ almost all vampires are mind mages. Their
"invisibility for
> vampires" or obfuscate seems to work, so maybe we should try applying it
to
> DQ (we've lifted ideas liberally from just about every other game system).

I don't care if they do Vampires well. I don't care that in DQ, vampires are
almost always mind mages. The question that was asked is what you expect it
to behave like, and the example you are drawing is something called
'obfuscate'.

> The key point is that obfuscate does get more powerful as it is ranked -
> and that the mind mage would be able to perform increasing intrusive acts
> and retain the spell's effect as they gain higher ranks in the spell.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS OBFUSCATE DO?

All you have said, basically, is that it gets better with rank, and it
probably has something to do with a somebody else's problem field.

 This
> makes sense to me, and it would certainly encourage ranking the spell, and
> let's not forget that it's got a pretty high EM.

No, COMPLETELY WRONG.

Let's totally forget about its EM for the  moment, and consider the nature
of the effect that's offered. In fact, prior to that, lets decide whether or
not DQ mind mages increase the net enjoyment of the game by allowing them a
concealment spell.

Whatever else is being discussed, this particular line stalls until an
actual definition of the way the effect works is offered. Otherwise, raising
the 'obfuscate' point simply suggests that another system has a way of doing
it.  But,then, no one seriously contends that the mechanics of White Wolf
games are startlingly good.

Without knowing more, this is a red herring.


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At 11:06 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
>BUT WHAT DOES THIS OBFUSCATE DO?

Here follows the description of this ability scanned from (somebody else's)=
=20
Vampire rulebook:
(I suspect that "unseen presence" best describes what I expect=20
undetectability to do).


Obfuscate

Kindred with this Discipline excel at hiding among and away from crowds.=20
When they do not wish to be seen, others, especially mortals, rarely notice=
=20
them even if they stand right in front of a crowd. Though this Discipline=20
affects others minds and does not actually render the users invisible, the
end result is much the same  Kindred employing Obfuscate simply can't be=20
seen. However, surveillance devices still track the character normally.
Unless the vampire purposely makes herself seen, she can remain obscure=20
indefinitely. At higher ratings, a vampire may slowly fade from the view of=
=20
those around simply by not
thinking about remaining in sight.
Auspex and Obfuscate are opposed to one another. When Obfuscate is used=20
against a Kindred who possesses a higher Auspex score than a character's=20
Obfuscate score, the character is unable to conceal himself from the=20
searcher. However, if the hider's score is higher, then the Kindred is
fooled normally.
While mortals normally have no ability to divine the location of Kindred=20
with this Discipline, the Storyteller may rule that those with psychic=20
powers may be able to see the vampire directly. Furthermore, children,=20
especially those who retain their own unique perspective on the universe and
have not fully accepted the reality imposed by their parents, are often=20
able to see through Obfuscate.

=95 Cloak of Shadows
Your ability to conceal yourself is not yet fully developed, so you need=20
some sort of cover in order to hide yourself effectively (or at least you=20
must be in a position that eyes easily pass over anyway). Most often, such=
=20
cover is the shadows of an alley or a recessed door frame, but this power
also works if you can interpose a tree or lamppost (no matter how narrow)=20
between yourself and the ones from whom you hide.
Once under cover, you must remain completely motionless in order to remain=
=20
obscured. If you move, if a light is turned on which would illuminate you,=
=20
or if a viewer moves to an angle at which you are directly in his line of=20
sight, the Cloak of Shadows fails.
System: No roll needs to be made, since the Obfuscate succeeds once the=20
criteria have been met. However, those with Auspex higher than the=20
character's Obfuscate will see right through the shadows.

=95=95 Unseen Presence
Your powers of remaining unseen have become so potent that you can=20
effectively cause yourself to disappear indefinitely and remain hidden even=
=20
if you walk around.
You are completely ignored unless someone specifically looks for you.=20
People will move about in ways that cause them to avoid you and will even=20
take actions to remove themselves from your vicinity. Their unconscious=20
minds will do nearly anything to prevent their conscious minds from=20
realizing that you are there.
System: No roll is normally required; however, if the character speaks or=20
engages in violent physical activity (e.g. combat), she will probably draw=
=20
attention to herself. The Storyteller may ask for a Wits + Stealth roll to=
=20
determine how well the character remains unseen. At least three successes=20
are required to allow her to speak and still not be seen.

=95=95=95 Mask of the Thousand Faces
This potent ability does not hide you from the gaze of others, but makes=20
you appear as someone other than who you truly are. Your appearance does=20
not actually change  you simply make people think they see someone else.
System: The player must roll Manipulation + Acting (difficulty 7) to=20
determine how well the character assumes his mask. Refer to the chart to=20
see how successful the attempt is.
1 success      People could still pick you out of a police lineup.
2 successes    The character looks somewhat different; subjects describe=20
him differently.
3 successes     The desired look is successfully broadcast.
4 successes    Appearance, movement and actions are completely different.
5 successes    The character can even appear as someone of the opposite sex.

**** Vanish from Mind=92s Eye
Your power has advanced to such a degree that you may actually disappear=20
from plain view. Even if you are standing face to face with a mortal, you=20
may exercise this power and simply vanish. Those who witness such a=20
disappearing act, especially mortals, are normally stunned with indecision=
=20
for a turn. One member of a large group might be able to react (such as to=
=20
fire into the space where the character vanished), but this is the=20
exception. Moreover, mortals with low strength of will may actually forget=
=20
that they every saw you at all.
System: The player must roll Charisma + Stealth (difficulty is the Wits +=20
Alertness of the target). If more than three successes are obtained, the=20
vampire completely disappears from sight. If the player obtains more=20
successes than the target's Willpower, she completely forgets the vampire's=
=20
existence, but the vampire must leave her presence immediately or be=20
remembered.

***** Cloak the Gathering
This incredibly manipulative power allows you to extend any of your=20
Obfuscate powers to those around you. Not only are you concealed, but so is=
=20
everyone else with you whom you wish to conceal.
If one character compromises the disguise or invisibility, then only she is=
=20
no longer under the protection of your powers. However, if you compromise=20
the position, the Cloak drops completely and everyone may be seen.
System: The character can conceal one additional individual for every point=
=20
of Stealth possessed. See the appropriate power above to see what must be=20
rolled to determine how successfully the power is used. A single roll=20
determines the effectiveness for everyone; each character does not roll=20
separately.



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<html>
At 11:06 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite>BUT WHAT DOES THIS OBFUSCATE
DO?</blockquote><br>
Here follows the description of this ability scanned from (somebody
else's) Vampire rulebook:<br>
(I suspect that &quot;unseen presence&quot; best describes what I expect
undetectability to do).<br><br>
<br>
<font face=3D"Courier New, Courier">Obfuscate<br><br>
Kindred with this Discipline excel at hiding among and away from crowds.
When they do not wish to be seen, others, especially mortals, rarely
notice them even if they stand right in front of a crowd. Though this
Discipline affects others minds and does not actually render the users
invisible, the<br>
end result is much the same&nbsp; Kindred employing Obfuscate simply
can't be seen. However, surveillance devices still track the character
normally.<br>
Unless the vampire purposely makes herself seen, she can remain obscure
indefinitely. At higher ratings, a vampire may slowly fade from the view
of those around simply by not<br>
thinking about remaining in sight.<br>
Auspex and Obfuscate are opposed to one another. When Obfuscate is used
against a Kindred who possesses a higher Auspex score than a character's
Obfuscate score, the character is unable to conceal himself from the
searcher. However, if the hider's score is higher, then the Kindred
is<br>
fooled normally.<br>
While mortals normally have no ability to divine the location of Kindred
with this Discipline, the Storyteller may rule that those with psychic
powers may be able to see the vampire directly. Furthermore, children,
especially those who retain their own unique perspective on the universe
and<br>
have not fully accepted the reality imposed by their parents, are often
able to see through Obfuscate.<br><br>
=95 Cloak of Shadows<br>
Your ability to conceal yourself is not yet fully developed, so you need
some sort of cover in order to hide yourself effectively (or at least you
must be in a position that eyes easily pass over anyway). Most often,
such cover is the shadows of an alley or a recessed door frame, but this
power<br>
also works if you can interpose a tree or lamppost (no matter how narrow)
between yourself and the ones from whom you hide.<br>
Once under cover, you must remain completely motionless in order to
remain obscured. If you move, if a light is turned on which would
illuminate you, or if a viewer moves to an angle at which you are
directly in his line of sight, the Cloak of Shadows fails.<br>
System: No roll needs to be made, since the Obfuscate succeeds once the
criteria have been met. However, those with Auspex higher than the
character's Obfuscate will see right through the shadows.<br><br>
=95=95 Unseen Presence<br>
Your powers of remaining unseen have become so potent that you can
effectively cause yourself to disappear indefinitely and remain hidden
even if you walk around.<br>
You are completely ignored unless someone specifically looks for you.
People will move about in ways that cause them to avoid you and will even
take actions to remove themselves from your vicinity. Their unconscious
minds will do nearly anything to prevent their conscious minds from
realizing that you are there.<br>
System: No roll is normally required; however, if the character speaks or
engages in violent physical activity (e.g. combat), she will probably
draw attention to herself. The Storyteller may ask for a Wits + Stealth
roll to determine how well the character remains unseen. At least three
successes are required to allow her to speak and still not be
seen.<br><br>
=95=95=95 Mask of the Thousand Faces<br>
This potent ability does not hide you from the gaze of others, but makes
you appear as someone other than who you truly are. Your appearance does
not actually change&nbsp; you simply make people think they see someone
else.<br>
System: The player must roll Manipulation + Acting (difficulty 7) to
determine how well the character assumes his mask. Refer to the chart to
see how successful the attempt is.<br>
1 success&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; People could still pick you out
of a police lineup.<br>
2 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The character looks somewhat different;
subjects describe him differently.<br>
3 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The desired look is successfully
broadcast.<br>
4 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Appearance, movement and actions are
completely different.<br>
5 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The character can even appear as someone of
the opposite sex.<br><br>
**** Vanish from Mind=92s Eye<br>
Your power has advanced to such a degree that you may actually disappear
from plain view. Even if you are standing face to face with a mortal, you
may exercise this power and simply vanish. Those who witness such a
disappearing act, especially mortals, are normally stunned with
indecision for a turn. One member of a large group might be able to react
(such as to fire into the space where the character vanished), but this
is the exception. Moreover, mortals with low strength of will may
actually forget that they every saw you at all.<br>
System: The player must roll Charisma + Stealth (difficulty is the Wits +
Alertness of the target). If more than three successes are obtained, the
vampire completely disappears from sight. If the player obtains more
successes than the target's Willpower, she completely forgets the
vampire's existence, but the vampire must leave her presence immediately
or be remembered.<br><br>
***** Cloak the Gathering<br>
This incredibly manipulative power allows you to extend any of your
Obfuscate powers to those around you. Not only are you concealed, but so
is everyone else with you whom you wish to conceal.<br>
If one character compromises the disguise or invisibility, then only she
is no longer under the protection of your powers. However, if you
compromise the position, the Cloak drops completely and everyone may be
seen.<br>
System: The character can conceal one additional individual for every
point of Stealth possessed. See the appropriate power above to see what
must be rolled to determine how successfully the power is used. A single
roll determines the effectiveness for everyone; each character does not
roll separately.<br><br>
<br>
</font></html>

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It seems obvious to me that the first point of difference between this =
effect and mind mage undetectability is that there is no Auspex ability. =
If, on the other hand, the effect was called Invisibility, then =
Witchsight is an obvious comparative effect, regardless of =
rationalisation or name.

In other words, the problem with undetectability has always been the way =
that it is not detectable. Obfuscate, on the other hand, has several =
inherent limitations. Auspex can see through it if it's higher than the =
Obfuscate. Devices are not affected by it. If a detection of similar =
commonality as Witchsight were available to penetrate Witchsight, then =
there would be no problem.=20

If spells like Wizard's Eye, or Crystals of Vision etc, could penetrate =
Undetectability, well, there's another useful limitation.

Unseen Presence

While the effect is not hard to understand, it is sufficiently loosely =
written so that the lattitude with which the DM applies the principle =
will vary from DM to DM. Personally, this doesn't worry me. Some people =
consider this to be anathematical, however.

That aside, it does seem to have enough loopholes that you could drive =
an 18 wheel truck through them. Possibly somersaulting it along the way.

The Mask of 1,000 Faces.

This effect is okay, but there is no particular reason to assign it to =
undetectability, in DQ. Vampire abilities represent an elemental form of =
development, after all, rather than distinct abilities. A spell may =
become more powerful with advancement, and perhaps not simply in =
standard terms of reference.=20

It seems to me that this ability does two things that aren't good, and =
it does them at once.=20

1. I would imagine this to be something that an Illusionist might be =
able to do. At present, they cannot. I would be loath to allow a mind =
mage such a function, where an Illusionist didn't have it.

2. It lets the spell move into a related, but different area. Where that =
is reasonable as a rationalisation for some kind of inherent function of =
being a particular kind of creature, I don't think it's the sort of =
thing that we can map onto a spell. The feeling I have of what a spell =
is, is as something that does something relatively discrete.=20

Vanish From the Mind's Eye

This effect is probably too powerful as written, although I think it =
reasonable, should you allow undetectability to continue to exist, that =
it could force observers to resist or forget that the target of the =
spell was present.

The other stuff is pretty average.=20

I note, however, that Obfuscate is considered an enhancement to Stealth. =


As a general comment on White Wolf games, then while I believe that the =
way they try and implement their ideas is pretty pathetic, the general =
idea of those abilities are often quite good. But, then, White Wolf is =
not a 'role playing game' in the sense that DQ is. It is a 'story =
telling game'.=20

Each form has strengths and weaknesses. I would not be looking at White =
Wolf for rules grammar, though. Mind you, I believe Jacqui has already =
uttered that caveat.


----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jacqui Smith=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 12:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Invulnerability spell needs to be fixed... again.


  At 11:06 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:

    BUT WHAT DOES THIS OBFUSCATE DO?

  Here follows the description of this ability scanned from (somebody =
else's) Vampire rulebook:
  (I suspect that "unseen presence" best describes what I expect =
undetectability to do).


  Obfuscate

  Kindred with this Discipline excel at hiding among and away from =
crowds. When they do not wish to be seen, others, especially mortals, =
rarely notice them even if they stand right in front of a crowd. Though =
this Discipline affects others minds and does not actually render the =
users invisible, the
  end result is much the same  Kindred employing Obfuscate simply can't =
be seen. However, surveillance devices still track the character =
normally.
  Unless the vampire purposely makes herself seen, she can remain =
obscure indefinitely. At higher ratings, a vampire may slowly fade from =
the view of those around simply by not
  thinking about remaining in sight.
  Auspex and Obfuscate are opposed to one another. When Obfuscate is =
used against a Kindred who possesses a higher Auspex score than a =
character's Obfuscate score, the character is unable to conceal himself =
from the searcher. However, if the hider's score is higher, then the =
Kindred is
  fooled normally.
  While mortals normally have no ability to divine the location of =
Kindred with this Discipline, the Storyteller may rule that those with =
psychic powers may be able to see the vampire directly. Furthermore, =
children, especially those who retain their own unique perspective on =
the universe and
  have not fully accepted the reality imposed by their parents, are =
often able to see through Obfuscate.

  . Cloak of Shadows
  Your ability to conceal yourself is not yet fully developed, so you =
need some sort of cover in order to hide yourself effectively (or at =
least you must be in a position that eyes easily pass over anyway). Most =
often, such cover is the shadows of an alley or a recessed door frame, =
but this power
  also works if you can interpose a tree or lamppost (no matter how =
narrow) between yourself and the ones from whom you hide.
  Once under cover, you must remain completely motionless in order to =
remain obscured. If you move, if a light is turned on which would =
illuminate you, or if a viewer moves to an angle at which you are =
directly in his line of sight, the Cloak of Shadows fails.
  System: No roll needs to be made, since the Obfuscate succeeds once =
the criteria have been met. However, those with Auspex higher than the =
character's Obfuscate will see right through the shadows.

  .. Unseen Presence
  Your powers of remaining unseen have become so potent that you can =
effectively cause yourself to disappear indefinitely and remain hidden =
even if you walk around.
  You are completely ignored unless someone specifically looks for you. =
People will move about in ways that cause them to avoid you and will =
even take actions to remove themselves from your vicinity. Their =
unconscious minds will do nearly anything to prevent their conscious =
minds from realizing that you are there.
  System: No roll is normally required; however, if the character speaks =
or engages in violent physical activity (e.g. combat), she will probably =
draw attention to herself. The Storyteller may ask for a Wits + Stealth =
roll to determine how well the character remains unseen. At least three =
successes are required to allow her to speak and still not be seen.

  ... Mask of the Thousand Faces
  This potent ability does not hide you from the gaze of others, but =
makes you appear as someone other than who you truly are. Your =
appearance does not actually change  you simply make people think they =
see someone else.
  System: The player must roll Manipulation + Acting (difficulty 7) to =
determine how well the character assumes his mask. Refer to the chart to =
see how successful the attempt is.
  1 success      People could still pick you out of a police lineup.
  2 successes    The character looks somewhat different; subjects =
describe him differently.
  3 successes     The desired look is successfully broadcast.
  4 successes    Appearance, movement and actions are completely =
different.
  5 successes    The character can even appear as someone of the =
opposite sex.

  **** Vanish from Mind's Eye
  Your power has advanced to such a degree that you may actually =
disappear from plain view. Even if you are standing face to face with a =
mortal, you may exercise this power and simply vanish. Those who witness =
such a disappearing act, especially mortals, are normally stunned with =
indecision for a turn. One member of a large group might be able to =
react (such as to fire into the space where the character vanished), but =
this is the exception. Moreover, mortals with low strength of will may =
actually forget that they every saw you at all.
  System: The player must roll Charisma + Stealth (difficulty is the =
Wits + Alertness of the target). If more than three successes are =
obtained, the vampire completely disappears from sight. If the player =
obtains more successes than the target's Willpower, she completely =
forgets the vampire's existence, but the vampire must leave her presence =
immediately or be remembered.

  ***** Cloak the Gathering
  This incredibly manipulative power allows you to extend any of your =
Obfuscate powers to those around you. Not only are you concealed, but so =
is everyone else with you whom you wish to conceal.
  If one character compromises the disguise or invisibility, then only =
she is no longer under the protection of your powers. However, if you =
compromise the position, the Cloak drops completely and everyone may be =
seen.
  System: The character can conceal one additional individual for every =
point of Stealth possessed. See the appropriate power above to see what =
must be rolled to determine how successfully the power is used. A single =
roll determines the effectiveness for everyone; each character does not =
roll separately.




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<DIV>It seems obvious to me that the first point of difference between =
this=20
effect and mind mage undetectability is that there is no Auspex ability. =
If, on=20
the other hand, the effect was called Invisibility, then Witchsight is =
an=20
obvious comparative effect, regardless of rationalisation or name.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In other words, the problem with undetectability has always been =
the way=20
that it is not detectable. Obfuscate, on the other hand, has several =
inherent=20
limitations. Auspex can see through it if it's higher than the =
Obfuscate.=20
Devices are not affected by it. If&nbsp;a detection of similar =
commonality as=20
Witchsight were available to penetrate Witchsight, then there would be =
no=20
problem. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>If spells like Wizard's Eye, or Crystals of Vision etc, could =
penetrate=20
Undetectability, well, there's another useful limitation.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Unseen Presence</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>While the effect is not hard to understand, it is sufficiently =
loosely=20
written so that the lattitude with which the DM applies the principle =
will vary=20
from DM to DM. Personally, this doesn't worry me. Some people consider =
this to=20
be anathematical, however.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>That aside, it does seem to have enough loopholes that you could =
drive an=20
18 wheel truck through them. Possibly somersaulting it along the =
way.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Mask of 1,000 Faces.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This effect is okay, but there is no particular reason to assign it =
to=20
undetectability, in DQ. Vampire abilities represent an elemental form of =

development, after all, rather than distinct abilities. A spell may =
become more=20
powerful with advancement, and perhaps not simply in standard terms of=20
reference. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It seems to me that this ability does two things that aren't good, =
and it=20
does them at once. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>1. I would imagine this to be something that an Illusionist might =
be able=20
to do. At present, they cannot. I would be loath to allow a mind mage =
such a=20
function, where an Illusionist didn't have it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>2. It lets the spell move into a related, but different area. Where =
that is=20
reasonable as a rationalisation for some kind of inherent function of =
being a=20
particular kind of creature, I don't think it's the sort of thing that =
we can=20
map onto a spell. The feeling I have of what a spell is, is as something =
that=20
does something relatively discrete. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Vanish From the Mind's Eye</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This effect is probably too powerful as written, although I think =
it=20
reasonable, should you allow undetectability to continue to exist, that =
it could=20
force observers to resist or forget that the target of the spell was=20
present.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The other stuff is pretty average. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I note, however, that Obfuscate is considered an enhancement to =
Stealth.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As a general comment on White Wolf games, then while I believe that =
the way=20
they try and implement their ideas is pretty pathetic, the general idea =
of those=20
abilities are often quite good. But, then, White Wolf is not a 'role =
playing=20
game' in the sense that DQ is. It is a 'story telling game'. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Each form has strengths and weaknesses. I would not be looking at =
White=20
Wolf for rules grammar, though. Mind you,&nbsp;I believe Jacqui has =
already=20
uttered that caveat.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dflamis@ihug.co.nz href=3D"mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz">Jacqui =
Smith</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 06, =
2002 12:24=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Invulnerability spell=20
  needs to be fixed... again.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>At 11:06 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">BUT WHAT DOES THIS =
OBFUSCATE=20
  DO?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Here follows the description of this ability =
scanned from=20
  (somebody else's) Vampire rulebook:<BR>(I suspect that "unseen =
presence" best=20
  describes what I expect undetectability to do).<BR><BR><BR><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New, Courier">Obfuscate<BR><BR>Kindred with this =
Discipline=20
  excel at hiding among and away from crowds. When they do not wish to =
be seen,=20
  others, especially mortals, rarely notice them even if they stand =
right in=20
  front of a crowd. Though this Discipline affects others minds and does =
not=20
  actually render the users invisible, the<BR>end result is much the =
same&nbsp;=20
  Kindred employing Obfuscate simply can't be seen. However, =
surveillance=20
  devices still track the character normally.<BR>Unless the vampire =
purposely=20
  makes herself seen, she can remain obscure indefinitely. At higher =
ratings, a=20
  vampire may slowly fade from the view of those around simply by=20
  not<BR>thinking about remaining in sight.<BR>Auspex and Obfuscate are =
opposed=20
  to one another. When Obfuscate is used against a Kindred who possesses =
a=20
  higher Auspex score than a character's Obfuscate score, the character =
is=20
  unable to conceal himself from the searcher. However, if the hider's =
score is=20
  higher, then the Kindred is<BR>fooled normally.<BR>While mortals =
normally have=20
  no ability to divine the location of Kindred with this Discipline, the =

  Storyteller may rule that those with psychic powers may be able to see =
the=20
  vampire directly. Furthermore, children, especially those who retain =
their own=20
  unique perspective on the universe and<BR>have not fully accepted the =
reality=20
  imposed by their parents, are often able to see through =
Obfuscate.<BR><BR>=95=20
  Cloak of Shadows<BR>Your ability to conceal yourself is not yet fully=20
  developed, so you need some sort of cover in order to hide yourself=20
  effectively (or at least you must be in a position that eyes easily =
pass over=20
  anyway). Most often, such cover is the shadows of an alley or a =
recessed door=20
  frame, but this power<BR>also works if you can interpose a tree or =
lamppost=20
  (no matter how narrow) between yourself and the ones from whom you=20
  hide.<BR>Once under cover, you must remain completely motionless in =
order to=20
  remain obscured. If you move, if a light is turned on which would =
illuminate=20
  you, or if a viewer moves to an angle at which you are directly in his =
line of=20
  sight, the Cloak of Shadows fails.<BR>System: No roll needs to be =
made, since=20
  the Obfuscate succeeds once the criteria have been met. However, those =
with=20
  Auspex higher than the character's Obfuscate will see right through =
the=20
  shadows.<BR><BR>=95=95 Unseen Presence<BR>Your powers of remaining =
unseen have=20
  become so potent that you can effectively cause yourself to disappear=20
  indefinitely and remain hidden even if you walk around.<BR>You are =
completely=20
  ignored unless someone specifically looks for you. People will move =
about in=20
  ways that cause them to avoid you and will even take actions to remove =

  themselves from your vicinity. Their unconscious minds will do nearly =
anything=20
  to prevent their conscious minds from realizing that you are =
there.<BR>System:=20
  No roll is normally required; however, if the character speaks or =
engages in=20
  violent physical activity (e.g. combat), she will probably draw =
attention to=20
  herself. The Storyteller may ask for a Wits + Stealth roll to =
determine how=20
  well the character remains unseen. At least three successes are =
required to=20
  allow her to speak and still not be seen.<BR><BR>=95=95=95 Mask of the =
Thousand=20
  Faces<BR>This potent ability does not hide you from the gaze of =
others, but=20
  makes you appear as someone other than who you truly are. Your =
appearance does=20
  not actually change&nbsp; you simply make people think they see =
someone=20
  else.<BR>System: The player must roll Manipulation + Acting =
(difficulty 7) to=20
  determine how well the character assumes his mask. Refer to the chart =
to see=20
  how successful the attempt is.<BR>1 =
success&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  People could still pick you out of a police lineup.<BR>2=20
  successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The character looks somewhat different; =
subjects=20
  describe him differently.<BR>3 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The =
desired=20
  look is successfully broadcast.<BR>4 successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Appearance,=20
  movement and actions are completely different.<BR>5=20
  successes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The character can even appear as someone =
of the=20
  opposite sex.<BR><BR>**** Vanish from Mind=92s Eye<BR>Your power has =
advanced to=20
  such a degree that you may actually disappear from plain view. Even if =
you are=20
  standing face to face with a mortal, you may exercise this power and =
simply=20
  vanish. Those who witness such a disappearing act, especially mortals, =
are=20
  normally stunned with indecision for a turn. One member of a large =
group might=20
  be able to react (such as to fire into the space where the character=20
  vanished), but this is the exception. Moreover, mortals with low =
strength of=20
  will may actually forget that they every saw you at all.<BR>System: =
The player=20
  must roll Charisma + Stealth (difficulty is the Wits + Alertness of =
the=20
  target). If more than three successes are obtained, the vampire =
completely=20
  disappears from sight. If the player obtains more successes than the =
target's=20
  Willpower, she completely forgets the vampire's existence, but the =
vampire=20
  must leave her presence immediately or be remembered.<BR><BR>***** =
Cloak the=20
  Gathering<BR>This incredibly manipulative power allows you to extend =
any of=20
  your Obfuscate powers to those around you. Not only are you concealed, =
but so=20
  is everyone else with you whom you wish to conceal.<BR>If one =
character=20
  compromises the disguise or invisibility, then only she is no longer =
under the=20
  protection of your powers. However, if you compromise the position, =
the Cloak=20
  drops completely and everyone may be seen.<BR>System: The character =
can=20
  conceal one additional individual for every point of Stealth =
possessed. See=20
  the appropriate power above to see what must be rolled to determine =
how=20
  successfully the power is used. A single roll determines the =
effectiveness for=20
  everyone; each character does not roll=20
separately.<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007A_01C1AE4A.26442E60--


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At 13:36 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
>In other words, the problem with undetectability has always been the way 
>that it is not detectable. Obfuscate, on the other hand, has several 
>inherent limitations. Auspex can see through it if it's higher than the 
>Obfuscate. Devices are not affected by it. If a detection of similar 
>commonality as Witchsight were available to penetrate Witchsight, then 
>there would be no problem.

I have been of the opinion that part of the invisibility problem in DQ was 
that witchsight was TOO common. In Vampire, Auspex is an ability that 
ordinary humans don't get, only vampires, so it isn't exactly common.

The balance works better in D&D where Detect Invisibility is a spell.

I don't like the idea of Witchsight penetrating Indetectability partly 
because Witchsight is so darn common, and partly because I see 
Indetectability as affecting the mind directly rather than through the senses.

>If spells like Wizard's Eye, or Crystals of Vision etc, could penetrate 
>Undetectability, well, there's another useful limitation.

Actually it's an idea with appeal - perhaps an Indetectable entity can be 
detected indirectly. Isn't there something about vampires and mirrors? Or 
was that ghosts... Whatever, it could be fun to play.

Jacqui


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jacqui Smith" <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Invulnerability spell needs to be fixed... again.


> At 13:36 5/02/02 +1300, you wrote:
> >In other words, the problem with undetectability has always been the way
> >that it is not detectable. Obfuscate, on the other hand, has several
> >inherent limitations. Auspex can see through it if it's higher than the
> >Obfuscate. Devices are not affected by it. If a detection of similar
> >commonality as Witchsight were available to penetrate Witchsight, then
> >there would be no problem.
>
> I have been of the opinion that part of the invisibility problem in DQ was
> that witchsight was TOO common. In Vampire, Auspex is an ability that
> ordinary humans don't get, only vampires, so it isn't exactly common.

Irrelevant. Vampire is a game about Vampires and other non humans. Mortals
are mostly scenery rather than actual combatants, anthough a few of them ARE
a threat. From a players point of  view, Auspex or abilities like it are
reasonably easy to get  hold of.

I don't agree that Witchsight is too common. It is fine the way it is. It
means that Invisibility and the standard concealment affects are useful to a
certain point, but stealth becomes much more valuable at the top end of the
game, which is what one would imagine, really.


>
> The balance works better in D&D where Detect Invisibility is a spell.
>
> I don't like the idea of Witchsight penetrating Indetectability partly
> because Witchsight is so darn common, and partly because I see
> Indetectability as affecting the mind directly rather than through the
senses.

There are a great many inherent restrictions on invisibility that balance
against it. Being able to make Intelligence rolls to penetrate invisibility,
for example, the fact that it fails once an attack of any kind is made, the
fact that invisibility is as liable to be dispelled interactively, rather
than as a result of a ritual by a caster who knows Dispel Magic, etc, etc,
etc.

In the original game, invisibility was just simple invisibility. You were
rendered unseeable unless someone had an ability to penetrate that illusion.
Over time, various limitations crept into the spell, like the 'you attack
and the invisibility effect ends' rule. That is completely specious. How can
a spell like invisibility know that someone is going to make an attack? And,
even if it can know this, why does it react by going away?

Nevertheless, the spell works that way because the alternative is that
whoever can make themselves invisible is virtually immune to harm. Which is
the situation that undetectability puts us in ,now, and may be one of the
reasons why Witchsight is common.

If Witchsight is common enough, then you don't need a rule as specious as
the 'you attack, you're invisibility fails' rule, because then it is not a
threat to the balance of the game.

Undetectability is,  however.

> >If spells like Wizard's Eye, or Crystals of Vision etc, could penetrate
> >Undetectability, well, there's another useful limitation.
>
> Actually it's an idea with appeal - perhaps an Indetectable entity can be
> detected indirectly. Isn't there something about vampires and mirrors? Or
> was that ghosts... Whatever, it could be fun to play.

YeahsurerightIbelievethat. The mind mages will like this until they realise
that any character with the funds to be able to buy half a dozen rank 6
Crystals of Vision can use it to identify the mind mage by getting an aerial
overview of the field of combat, if they suspect a mind mage.

All this is doing is finding loopholes in the wording of the spell,because,
ultimately, DMs probably consider it to be an unbalanced effect.

It is better to attempt an objective view of the game, and the world, and
assume that a spell must have sufficient advantages to be useful, and
sufficient disadvantages to encourage forming groups and the wider
development of skills to shore up weaknesses.

Again, the question should be asked, do Mind Mages need a concealment spell?
That should be the first order of business. If the general tenor is that
they really shouldn't have one, then get rid of undetectability. It is no
longer necessary.

If the feeling is that Mind Mages should have a concealment spell, then,
perhaps we should discuss what form that concealment should take.


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