Anathea is not the usual barely literate near-idiot priest - she is
persecuted (by other PCs) for her different beliefs and approach. Someone
like Father Rowan represents the strengths and weaknesses of a typical
priest far better. The requirements for a typical priest would be something
like:

* Unwashed
* Uncouth
* Unpleasant
* Rabid
* Sincere (c.f. real-estate agent)
* Hellfire Rank 10+

In the case of priests of the Powers of Light, replace Hellfire with Hand &
a half.


Andrew
-----Original Message-----
> To be ordained in the Western church for a pastoral role, you need:
>  * Rank 5+ in artisan skill 'priest' (representing skills like conducting
> services, conflict resolution, etc.)

This is a very modern priest. It maybe part of the personal baggage of your
priest, but it's not any part of the general body of priesthood. If
anything, village priests were more like political officers and
propagandists for the Holy Mother Church at large. They were responsible for
finding ways to extend the political, and financial powers of their
corporate entity.

They were not organs of diplomacy and peace. Some were, I've no doubt, but I
think it's possibly a sweeping to suggest that these were common. Our idea
of a priest being someone who communicates the issues of his flock to the
community is not a medieval view. Hell, it's not even a Victorian view. It's
VERY modern.

>  * Rank 1+ in courtier, including oratory (for sermans)

This must be some new kind of polite sermonising, then.

One imagines that the sermons of most village priests were, in fact, the
rantings of some barely literate near-idiot with rather more time on his
hands than might have been good for his health.

I don't think it's possible to be this kind of priest. I do think it's
unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.


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Getting away from the philosophical debate on Wiccans and their perversions,
I quite like the idea of an Apocrypha.

I am happy to record and maintain such a document online, and bring copies
to the Guild meetings.

Mandos
/s


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Just some thoughts (statement of interest: one of my characters has vaguely
similar interests)

> > From Michael W
> From: Jim Arona [mailto:jimarona@ihug.co.nz]
> 
> >  * Rank 1+ in courtier, including oratory (for sermans)
> 
> 
> >  * Rank 1+ in philosophy, including theology
> 

Am I right in thinking that specific artisan skills can include those small
aspects of other skills that are needed/useful. eg a middle-rank priest has
been taught to spout their church's line on Theology, they have figured out
effective ways to publicly discredit those who might challenge their
authority etc.
Or am I stretching Artisan too much?


> 
> >  * Rank 6+ in Elven (on the assumption that the Western 
> Church uses Elven
> > like the Catholics use Latin - also apocraphal)
> 
> Not as far as I'm aware. Elven is a living, thriving 
> language, whereas Latin
> was a dead language at the correspondant time that DQ would 
> represent, and,
> indeed, that was one of its attractions. Dead languages don't 
> change that
> much, so they provide a lingua franca that is stable wherever 
> you are in
> Christendom.
> 

At the village priest level was it normal to actually converse in it, rather
than just be able to conduct services in it? You could probably do this at
rank 4, I would guess. Is there an Old-elven (or Old-something else) that
would fulfil the same role? This could perhaps be included in the
Artisan:Priest skill?

Not that the Western Church is a perfect copy of the Catholic, but they have
some things in common.


> 
> I don't think it's impossible to be this kind of priest. I do think it's
> unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.
> 
> 
Agreed (FWIW). Some extra requirements for Anathea (to counter her having a
college, for Christ-sakes - Western Church Theology 101 The Evils of Mag*c,
isn't it?) would be one way of looking at it.

Cheers
Errol


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Errol Cavit wrote:

>Am I right in thinking that specific artisan skills can include those small
>aspects of other skills that are needed/useful. eg a middle-rank priest has
>been taught to spout their church's line on Theology, they have figured out
>effective ways to publicly discredit those who might challenge their
>authority etc.
>Or am I stretching Artisan too much?
>
Artisan was created to provide a fairly simple way of modelling a wide 
range of craft type skills so that PCs could have a consistent way of 
gaining background style skills (such as coming from a family of 
fullers), and to allow for character interest skills -- there are PCs 
who have wanted to be toymakers, or seamstresses, or pewterers, etc.

It wasn't intented to replace any existing DQ skills, or to replace 
role-playing... rather to provide some tools to enhance 
characterization.  For example, there should not be a "Publican" artisan 
ability.  Running a tavern is probably a combination of Merchant (the 
financial side), perhaps some low rank in Troubadour (entertaining 
stories, drinking songs) or Courtier (depending on the nature of the 
tavern), and perhaps others skills such as Thief.  :-)  If the 
tavern-keeper _also_ wants to brew beer or cook or bake then those would 
be reasonable Artisan skills to pick up.

I don't see that the skills "package" of a village priest and Artisan 
 have much cross-over.  If the priest wants to make wine then sure, pick 
up vintner, but rhetoric and theology... and ranting and outside of 
Artisan.  If one wishes to model the basic theological knowledge of a 
half-drunk, ranting priest then the skill Knowledge (Western Church) is 
probably your best bet as the "knowledge held by the character may not 
be entirely factual, and may contain certain popular misconceptions or 
superstitions".

>>[Michael] Church uses Elven like the Catholics use Latin - also apocraphal)
>>
>>[Jim] Not as far as I'm aware. Elven is a living, thriving language, whereas Latin...
>>
>
>At the village priest level was it normal to actually converse in it, rather
>than just be able to conduct services in it?
>
No.  Medieval church scholars often bemoaned the dog latin of the 
uneducated priests.

> Is there an Old-elven (or Old-something else) that would fulfil the same role?
>
Yes.  This is mea culpa by the way.  It has been my contention that the 
"modern" Western church dates to the fall of the Old Elven Empire... 
something like the medieval church dating to pre-fall Rome.  The Old 
Elven (or Eldarin) of the empire is no longer in use by modern elves and 
a particularly doggy form of it could easily be a ritual tongue of the 
Western Church.

>This could perhaps be included in the Artisan:Priest skill?
>
No... apart from the inappropriateness of Artisan: Priest, they should 
learn any languages the standard way.  Artisan should not replace extant 
skills.

>>[Jim] I don't think it's impossible to be this kind of priest. I do think it's
>>unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.
>>
Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at 
her attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper" 
priest who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered 
the choir boys.  :-)

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Apologies for any undue facetiousness; my morning needs livening up.

Since she's an artisan [i.e. a maker of things], say rank 6, I assume that --rather than using any
rank-0 midwife who only producees one baby-- your average peasant prefers Mother Anathea who
produces 1.3 babies

> > Here are a few apocrophal rulings that have applied to Anathea:
> > Midwife is an artisan skill.
>
> I would have said this wasn't really an artisan skill, it sounds like it's
> more of a herbalist skill, but of limited level.

Indeed, Alternatively, what is wrong with a midwife being a Rank-2 healer?  You don't need MA, so
it's a career option open to any.

Frankly I dislike the concept of an artisan Priest skill -- and not just because certain priest are
non-productive.  The same way I dislike the concept of artisan Adventurer skill as a single
one-track way of learning & doing everything you need to adventure.

Furthermore the our churches operate along the medieval lines that you are assigned a job which
suits your abilities  Until the 18th century blossoming of the Royal Navy, the church was the
greatest institutional employer in England.  A rank-6 courtier with Oratory & extra ranks in
Intimidation  makes an excellent roving preacher along the lines of a hellfire-&-damnation.  The
unskilled illiterate son of a innkeeper?  well there's still a high demand for lay-brethren ... all
those flagstones to be scrubbed for a start.  An artisan cook -- out of that refractory kitchen, why
waste your skills on preparing gruel when His Grace has an opportunities in his Domestic Household
for skilled cooks & smiths as much as for scribes & clerks.


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Michael Parkinson wrote:

> Apologies for any undue facetiousness; my morning needs livening up.
>
> Since she's an artisan [i.e. a maker of things], say rank 6, I assume that --rather than using any
> rank-0 midwife who only producees one baby-- your average peasant prefers Mother Anathea who
> produces 1.3 babies

:-)
30% faster labour, and (because rank is 5+) an extra point of EN during labour.

I'll make some comments about the priesthood side of things in a while, but that will take longer than
I can justify taking on company time.

The major point of my post was suggesting the Apocrypha rather than details of Anathea's abilities.
Thank you Mandos, for volunteering to help compile this. If you have anything useful (e.g. writeups on
PCs ability to create holy water) please send them to Mandos.

Michael W.


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Martin Dickson wrote:

> >>[Jim] I don't think it's impossible to be this kind of priest. I do
think it's
> >>unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.
> >>
> Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at
> her attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"
> priest who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered
> the choir boys.  :-)

Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?


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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
Jim Arona wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:004d01c1ca7c$af09e020$0200a8c0@jim">
  <pre wrap="">Martin Dickson wrote:<br></pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at<br>her attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"<br>priest who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered<br>the choir boys.  :-)<br></pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap=""><!----><br>Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?<br></pre>
    </blockquote>
The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and not aimed
at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.<br>
(As an aside, is Father Rowan concerned that people may think he's been molesting
the choir boys, or that none were provided?) &nbsp;:-)<br>
    <br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol"><br><br>-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">martin.dickson@peace.com</a>
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401</pre>
    <br>
    </body>
    </html>


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> > >>[Jim] I don't think it's impossible to be this kind of priest. I do
> think it's
> > >>unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.
> > >>
> > Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at
> > her attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"
> > priest who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered
> > the choir boys.  :-)
>
> Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?

Hmm,  one wonders why the good father has never been allowed to see a choir boy.
Oh these days they have "choir boys" in most cathedrals (provided the bishop has an Ear, or other
suitably appreciative organ).  Its like having an ordinary Monastic choir -- but with additional,
higher voices.   Technically you could use elves or women, rather than boys (except that's obviously
immoral and blasphemous).


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Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes ather
attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"priest who
ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggeredthe choir boys.
:-)
Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?
  The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and not aimed
at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.
  (As an aside, is Father Rowan concerned that people may think he's been
molesting the choir boys, or that none were provided?)  :-)

I thought he was just trying to act inoccent :-) But I do note that he stops
short of outright denial ;-)

Mandos
/s

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3314.2100" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"mid:004d01c1ca7c$af09e020$0200a8c0@jim" =
type=3D"cite">
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Agreed.  and who knows, =
Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at<BR>her attmpts at =
"conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"<BR>priest who =
ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered<BR>the choir =
boys.  :-)<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->Choir boys? What =
bloody choir boys?<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and =
not aimed=20
  at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.<BR>(As an aside, is =
Father=20
  Rowan concerned that people may think he's been molesting the choir =
boys, or=20
  that none were provided?) &nbsp;:-)<BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D033541023-12032002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I thought =
he was just=20
trying to act in</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">occent=20
:</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">-)&nbsp;But I&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman">do=20
note that he stops short of ou</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
size=3D3>tright denial ;-)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D033541023-12032002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>Mandos</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
> 
> Hmm,  one wonders why the good father has never been allowed 
> to see a choir boy.
> Oh these days they have "choir boys" in most cathedrals 

Is the good father allowed in cathedrals then? Other than the plane where he
is known as 'Pope Rowen', of course.


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I just want to know where my bloody choir boys were...No bugger told me =
anything about choir boys. Damned cheek.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Martin Dickson=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Priesthood and Artisan (was Apocrypha)


  Jim Arona wrote:

Martin Dickson wrote:
Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes ather =
attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"priest =
who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggeredthe choir =
boys.  :-)
Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?
  The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and not =
aimed at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.
  (As an aside, is Father Rowan concerned that people may think he's =
been molesting the choir boys, or that none were provided?)  :-)

  Cheers,
  Martin

--=20

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401

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<DIV>I just want to know where my bloody choir boys were...No bugger =
told me=20
anything about choir boys. Damned cheek.</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dmartin.dickson@peace.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">Martin Dickson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 13, 2002 =
12:07=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Priesthood =
and Artisan=20
  (was Apocrypha)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Jim Arona wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid:004d01c1ca7c$af09e020$0200a8c0@jim =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Martin Dickson wrote:<BR></PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Agreed.  and who knows, =
Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at<BR>her attmpts at =
"conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"<BR>priest who =
ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered<BR>the choir =
boys.  :-)<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!----><BR>Choir boys? =
What bloody choir boys?<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>The=20
  comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and not aimed =
at any=20
  particular follower of an agrarian deity.<BR>(As an aside, is Father =
Rowan=20
  concerned that people may think he's been molesting the choir boys, or =
that=20
  none were provided?) &nbsp;:-)<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Martin<BR><PRE =
class=3Dmoz-signature cols=3D"$mailwrapcol"><BR><BR>--=20

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">martin.dickson@peace.com</A>
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : =
+64-9-373-0401</PRE><BR>-- to=20
  unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- =
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I feel a HEALING COMIN' ON!!!!
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Mandos Mitchinson=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:12 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Priesthood and Artisan (was Apocrypha)


Agreed.  and who knows, Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes ather =
attmpts at "conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"priest =
who ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggeredthe choir =
boys.  :-)
Choir boys? What bloody choir boys?
    The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and not =
aimed at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.
    (As an aside, is Father Rowan concerned that people may think he's =
been molesting the choir boys, or that none were provided?)  :-)
    =20
  I thought he was just trying to act inoccent :-) But I do note that he =
stops short of outright denial ;-)

  Mandos
  /s=20

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I feel a HEALING COMIN' ON!!!!</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dmandos@iconz.net href=3D"mailto:mandos@iconz.net">Mandos =
Mitchinson</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 13, 2002 =
12:12=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Priesthood =
and Artisan=20
  (was Apocrypha)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid:004d01c1ca7c$af09e020$0200a8c0@jim =
type=3D"cite">
      <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Agreed.  and who knows, =
Anathea's "flock" may well roll their eyes at<BR>her attmpts at =
"conflict resolution" and wish that they had a "proper"<BR>priest who =
ranted hell-fire sermons through foaming lips and buggered<BR>the choir =
boys.  :-)<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->Choir boys? What =
bloody choir boys?<BR></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV>The comment about hellfire preachers was meant generically and =
not=20
    aimed at any particular follower of an agrarian deity.<BR>(As an =
aside, is=20
    Father Rowan concerned that people may think he's been molesting the =
choir=20
    boys, or that none were provided?) &nbsp;:-)<BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D033541023-12032002>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman">I thought he was just trying to act =
in</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Times New Roman">occent =
:</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman">-)&nbsp;But=20
  I&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">do note that he stops =
short of=20
  ou</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>tright denial=20
  ;-)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D033541023-12032002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000000=20
  size=3D3>Mandos</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D033541023-12032002><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
color=3D#000000=20
  =
size=3D3>/s</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0073_01C1CAEC.B1DE19E0--


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The problem with this approach is that we end up with a rulebook and a
folder of addendums and odd rules.  Not dissimilar to what we had 6 years
ago before we started re-printing the rules with all our changes in it.

There is nothing wrong with adding to the rules, this is part of what this
forum is about - discussing the rules and sometimes adding to them or
changing them.
I would far prefer to have Artisan: Teamster in the rules to having it in a
folder of optional changes.  The whole idea of a new and better ordered rule
book is to make it easier to use.

Taking the specific example, I don't think it matters whether Artisan:
Teamster is in the rules, it will have almost no impact on the game either
way.  If more than a couple of people start ranking it then add it in to the
standard list, otherwise let it just be an odd skill that 1 or 2 characters
have for their own reasons.
The Adventuring skill of Driving Carts/Wagons/... is worth adding to the
rules.  Several characters already have it and others (me at least) want to
acquire it.  So lets add it to the rules and enrich the game environment by
0.5%.  It doesn't require legthy discussions, it's never going to break the
game, the rules are not a sacrosanct document which should never be touched.
They are a collection of world rules that we have inherited or defined to
help provide a consistent world for us all to play in.
Obviously we don't reprint the rules or reprint a section of them to put
this change into play, but what we do is agree on the 3 lines of text that
encapsulate the rule, ask Ross to include it in his source document and then
next time we print a new version it goes into play.

Cheers, Stephen.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Woodhams [mailto:michael.woodhams@peace.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 12 March 2002 5:30 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Apocrypha


I don't think stuff about how teamster skill works is important enough to go
through rules changes for. A better approach I think would be to have in
parallel to the official rules a Rules Apocrypha, where GMs can submit
optional rules that they play (e.g. Keith's swimming and drowning rules,
Mandos and Williams backfire table from hell), or how they've ruled on
borderline cases (like whether teamster is an adventuring skill or artisan
skill). Nothing in the Apocrypha would be binding, but it allows GMs to be
consistent with other GMs when they have no strong opinions on which way a
ruling should go.


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Stephen Martin wrote:

>I don't think it matters whether Artisan: Teamster is in the rules, it will have almost no impact on the game either
>way. If more than a couple of people start ranking it then add it in to the
>standard list, otherwise let it just be an odd skill that 1 or 2 characters
>have for their own reasons.
>

Indeed.  The list of skills under Artisan is not intended to be 
exhaustive.  Section 31.1 Artisan Skills states:  "The most common 
skills under the heading of artisan are:  <list follows>".

Provided a GM is happy that the specialization a PC wants is appropriate 
to model with Artisan then go for it, there is no need to add it to the 
rulebook.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> The problem with this approach is that we end up with a rulebook and a
> folder of addendums and odd rules.  Not dissimilar to what we had 6 years
> ago before we started re-printing the rules with all our changes in it.

I think the teamster is a bad example. Unless we look to the past for how it
would have worked with an apocyrpha.

One day a character wants to learn teamster. The GM knows there is nothing
in the rules and checks the apocrypha to find nothing is there. They make a
ruling on the spur of the moment and the character is happy. They then
submit it to the apocrypha.

A few months or years later someone else wants to have a teamster. They
check the rules and apocrypha and find the previous submission. They then
choose to either take the previous GM interpretation or invent their own and
add it.

A few months later we arrive on the list and someone sugests we have a rule
to cover the skill as there are now 5 or 6 players using the skill.

If there is one interpretation in the apocrypha then it can slide easily
into the rules with limited argument. If there are multiple possibilities
then we can discuss the options in play or in fact they could be brought up
for discussion as soon as there are two possibilities.

Rather than a fixed rule it would simply allow people to look at judgement
calls and make their own minds up for things that really are not worth
adding to the rules.

Mandos
/s


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Me:

> To be ordained in the Western church for a pastoral role, you need:
>  * Rank 5+ in artisan skill 'priest' (representing skills like conducting services,
conflict resolution, etc.)

Jim:
> This is a very modern priest.
Think of it as training in the rituals of the church if you prefer.

Me
>  * Rank 1+ in courtier, including oratory (for sermans)
Jim:
> This must be some new kind of polite sermonising, then.
> One imagines that the sermons of most village priests were, in fact, the
> rantings of some barely literate near-idiot with rather more time on his
> hands than might have been good for his health.
Me:
>  * Rank 1+ in philosophy, including theology
Jim:
> A village priest armed with theology? The Bishop is going to want to know
> about this dangerous crypto-heretic.

Some interesting points there. I had not thought about these points, but I think I can
justify things.

The skills that Anathea learned are probably typical of the training for clergy expecting
to minister to nobles and to advance in the church (e.g. become a bishop one day) so such
training would exist. It is unusual for someone with such training to become a village
priest, but it makes a great deal of sense for Anathea to do so given her background. Why
did she get the high class priest education rather than the low class one? Either because
the institution she was trained at (Convent of Lost Souls in Valar, selected because of
adventuring events) happened to teach that way, or because being fairly well educated
already she was not satisfied with the lesser training, and being rich (by village priest
candidate standards, not guild standards) she could afford the better education. (As Errol
points out, it also may have been necessary to go the extra distance to neutralise the
disadvantage of being a mage.)

Jim:
> I don't think it's impossible to be this kind of priest. I do think it's
> unlikely that it's at all the standard priest of our period.

She is already very non-standard by also being a witch.

I'm not strongly attached to the idea of the artisan priest skill. It was required by the
GM, and didn't seem unreasonable, so I went with it. In a way it is just my showing (by
spending EP and time) my comittment to this piece of character background. What you call
the result of the EP and time expenditure doesn't matter too much.


Errol wrote:
> At the village priest level was it normal to actually converse in it, rather
> than just be able to conduct services in it? You could probably do this at
> rank 4, I would guess. Is there an Old-elven (or Old-something else) that
> would fulfil the same role? This could perhaps be included in the
> Artisan:Priest skill?

Again, probably the difference between minimal clerical training for peasants and high
class clerical training.

Martin:
> It has been my contention that the
> "modern" Western church dates to the fall of the Old Elven Empire...
> something like the medieval church dating to pre-fall Rome.  The Old
> Elven (or Eldarin) of the empire is no longer in use by modern elves and
> a particularly doggy form of it could easily be a ritual tongue of the
> Western Church.

My view of 'church Elven' was that from the point of view of a real elf, it is spoken with
a very thick accent. As Anathea has met real elves, her accent is probably intermediate.
As long as it is understood that what Anathea learned was whatever the ritual tongue of
the Western Church is, I can adapt to changes in opinion about what that language is.

Michael.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
> 
> Rather than a fixed rule it would simply allow people to look 
> at judgement
> calls and make their own minds up for things that really are not worth
> adding to the rules.
> 

There is an approximation to this in our legal system. When a judge makes a
ruling, they can make comments not directly related to the matter before
them (obiter dictum - good old Latin, eh!). Other judges can draw on this if
they wish, but it is not binding on lower courts, while the ratio decidendi
("reason for deciding") is. 

I would expect that obiter made by judges that later rise to high legal
office have more chance of being taken notice of later on!

Cheers
Errol
(with thanks to the internet, for fleshing out my 10 year old memory of law
lectures)


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Cart Driving? Midwifery? Conflict Resolution?

Did I fall into some alternate dimension where I play characters in the
Seagate Guild of Jolly Good Chums and Ladies Sewing Circle?

IMEO a player can choose to waste time and EP for their character to have
whatever daft skill they think it should have. Or not, they can just pretend
and beleive that in their character's spare time they deliver babies or move
turnips. Why say they cannot? It's their heroic protagonist and fantasy
after all.

What I don't want to see in one of my games (If you can see yourself as B
it's intentional).

(The party is bickering over what course of action to take while in a
runaway cart.)

Player A: I'll grab the riens and stop the horses.
Player B: Do you have cart driving?
A: I have rk 6 horsemanship.
B: You won't be successful. We need a cart driver.
A: What!

But since I forsee a rash of these 'skills' how about the optional skills of
rodgering, kicking ass and bickering. All much more suitable for adventurers
:-)

Ta muchly
William.


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