Of Course there are limits -- Armourers are used to that...
Can't reduce the weight of cloth/fur/leather armour;
Can't make armour that give someone Agility;
Can't improve the protection of cloth/fur/soft-leather;
Can't make a non-magical suit of armour worth over 100,000 sp BEFORE you even consider the cost of
silverg, etc -- oh no, sorry, they can do that!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Michael Woodhams
> Sent: Thursday, 18 April 2002 3:43
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Shields
>
>
> Michael Parkinson wrote:
>
> > Weight: 1 lb/Rank  --Supposedly because this is the EXACT per-rank equivalent of an Armourer
> > modifying a suit of armour for a male human (in reality, the real reason is that it is
> a convenient,
> > intuitively comfortable number).
>
> Then a high ranked armourer makes a reduced weight small shield, ties a string to it so
> it won't float
> away, and gives it to their kid. :-)
>
>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
> 
> 
> Of Course there are limits -- Armourers are used to that...
.
.
.
> Can't make a non-magical suit of armour worth over 100,000 sp 
> BEFORE you even consider the cost of
> silverg, etc -- oh no, sorry, they can do that!
> 
> 

Um, _costs_ more than 100,000 sp - 'worth' is in the eye of the purchaser,
if any!

Try getting 30,000 sp for a set of silvered Scale, for instance.

Cheers
Errol


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Parkinson
> 
> 
> Of Course there are limits -- Armourers are used to that...
> Can't reduce the weight of cloth/fur/leather armour;
> Can't make armour that give someone Agility;
> Can't improve the protection of cloth/fur/soft-leather;
> Can't make a non-magical suit of armour worth over 100,000 sp 
> BEFORE you even consider the cost of
> silverg, etc -- oh no, sorry, they can do that!
> 
> 

While playing around with this stuff, don't forget that:

56.2 Shields
"All shields except the tower shield and main gauche
are constructed of wood and hides and do not affect
the flow of mana in regard to Adepts."

Given this, what sort of characteristics of a shield is it reasonable (and
preferably consistent) to improve?

The potential for reducing weight seems fairly limited - is it worthwhile
working out a new formula?

My gut reaction is that a better balanced shield would be easier to move
about in general, and would be easier to get in the best position to
deflect/block a blow. Therefore mod'ing MD loss and defence seems right
based on this assumption.

Are there game-play reasons for not allowing Main-Gauche to get extra
defence? At max rank (for a lot more EP), it gives the same defence as a
large round (rk10x2% vs rk(1+4)x4%). Hardly seems unreasonable. Whether it
is worth adding a special rule (to weaponsmith, presumably) is another
matter.

Joking aside, the 'logic' for improving Base chance and damage is dubious
IMO - any other comments on this?

Cheers
Errol


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Errol Cavit wrote:

>Joking aside, the 'logic' for improving Base chance and damage is dubious
>IMO - any other comments on this?
>
Historically there were shields that were designed to be used as 
weapons.  Adding a spike on the front, or sharpening the edges (for 
example) could well explain extra damage... better balance could 
reasonably reduce MD loss or increase attack BC.

Having shields as a Weaponsmith category and allowing increased BC 
and/or DM is simple and requires no new rules.  Allowing increased Def 
or reduced MD loss or weight involves more significant alterations.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Main Gauche is already the "best" weapon for mages who can't use battle axe,
rapier or hand & a half. They get close & melee and defence, and high ranks
for IV / keeping out of close. There are lots of magical MGs as well.
Getting extra bonuses to defence shouldn't be encouraged, as these weapon
would push further out of the bell curve, and reduce more mages to a "batlle
axe and MG" combination.
A MG also give no MD loss.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Errol Cavit [mailto:ecavit@tranzrail.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 19 April 2002 11:33 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Shields

Are there game-play reasons for not allowing Main-Gauche to get extra
defence? At max rank (for a lot more EP), it gives the same defence as a
large round (rk10x2% vs rk(1+4)x4%). Hardly seems unreasonable. Whether it
is worth adding a special rule (to weaponsmith, presumably) is another
matter.

Joking aside, the 'logic' for improving Base chance and damage is dubious
IMO - any other comments on this?

Cheers
Errol


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Errol said:

> While playing around with this stuff, don't forget that:
>
> 56.2 Shields
> "All shields except the tower shield and main gauche
> are constructed of wood and hides and do not affect
> the flow of mana in regard to Adepts."
>
> Given this, what sort of characteristics of a shield is it reasonable (and
> preferably consistent) to improve?

Thanks for pointing this out -- I had missed it; although I'd always assumed that Kite & Tower
shields were metallic (with no penalty for being bronze.

> [...]
>Joking aside, the 'logic' for improving Base chance and damage is dubious
> IMO - any other comments on this.

No I think it is perfectly valid.  Considering all other weapons, a weaponsmith makes them better to
wield &/or to have more "bite" regardless of it's class --this is an acceptable simplification of
reality.  Why shouldn't a weaponsmith be able to make a shield that hits a bit better & harder?
What is stupid (or at least extremely simplistic) is that a 50lb hobbit & a 300lb human do shield
bashes for the same BC & damage.  Certainly a shield-charge from two such disparate would not be
identical.


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I totally concur with Martin's view regarding Weaponsmith ...

> Having shields as a Weaponsmith category and allowing increased BC
> and/or DM is simple and requires no new rules.  Allowing increased Def
> or reduced MD loss or weight involves more significant alterations.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin

Add "make & maintain shield" as a weaponsmith category.  By the way, how do you make a better
garrotte -- is it an experimental weapon?  Do you consider it part of a bow -- as it sometimes was
in fact, although perhaps not as much as it was referred to  (as in "Mustapha is for the
bowstring").

I too am uneasy about Armourer should improve a shield.  Create a new category ...
10 Shields
with the prerequisite of none -- or perhaps that should be leather?  I suggest updating the
paragraph

Weight: 1/2 a factor per 3 full ranks. Never lighter than WT 1. (This attribute may not be affected
for the cloth, leather or mithril categories).
   to something like...
Weight: 1/2 a factor per 3 full ranks. Never lighter than WT 1. (This attribute may not be affected
for the cloth, leather or mithril categories).  The only shield that an armourer may make lighter is
a Tower shield, 1lb per Rank.

Finally -- presumable an Armourer/weaponsmith [as the player of one such] could create a shield with
combined bonuses, but the TOTAL ranks-work of bonuses must be less than his rank in Armourer or
weaponsmith, whichever is the greater.


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