Dear all,

as mentioned before the _cost_ of armour is broken.  Since, amongst other motivations for getting
this right, I don't want to give away ridiculous amounts of loot from my party for setting a nasty
ambush for a bunch of heroes; I intend pricing the armourer-made armour at [base cost, i.e. 80% of
list] x [days taken to make] x [armour's rank squared; or 5, if under rank3] silver pennies.

The silvered set of armour I intend pricing as a surcharge equal to 50% of armour's weight in silver
pennies.  Does this seem reasonable?  any other suggestions?

Michael Parkinson
Mathematics & Statistics Subject Librarian
===============================

PS: aside to party -- it was only as I was figuring out whose bodies the various potios were on that
I realised, in turning the page, I had confused Sir Rafael de llavve's armour with Dottore
Bartollini's [hey -- Doc & Dopey are quite close together].


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
>
>
> Dear all,
>
> as mentioned before the _cost_ of armour is broken.

You're referring to the +30,000 cost for silvered armour? A party I was on
(Jhensi Hallenger's Birthday) had the same issue. From memory (after much
discussion about purity of coin metal and so on) we valued it at 'value'
rather than cost.

HTH

Errol


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Errol Cavit wrote:

>You're referring to the +30,000 cost for silvered armour?
>
 From memory this was a replacement for the previous "x 10" for 
silvered, (x 120 for gilded and x 180 for True Silver).

It is massively over-priced... quick calculations show (assuming 
Carzalan silver pennies are indeed silver, and not as suspected by many, 
heavily debased with lesser metals... and mud) that for 30,000 silver 
pennies worth of silver one would have the materials to build two entire 
suits of human sized, solid silver improved plate.

A "cost" to the Armourer of something like 5-15% of the armour weight in 
silver (which for improved plate would be 770 to 2,300sp) would seem 
reasonable to me... even 5% armour weight in silver is pretty heavy for 
"silvering" assuming a dip/coat/veneer... 15% would be a substantial 
alloy percentage.

Applying the same principles to Gold and True Silver would give ranges 
of 9,250 to 27,700 for gold and 96,750 to nearly 300,000 for True 
Silver.  Still looks way too high at the top end -- given the effect 
that the metal conveys -- but either the amount needed is much lower... 
or perhaps True Silvered armour is an inefficient way to spend your 
money.  :-)

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 0000613ACC256BD1_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

The rumour that Carzalan pennies are debased with mud has arisen directly 
from the common myth (primarily spread by Guild members) that absolutely 
any idiot can make it rich in Seagate.  And since mud is one of the few 
free commodities to be found in our fine town ...
During my commission as Inspector of the Ducal Mint I can assue you all 
that Carzalan currency contained no water or soil.


Pennywise
Guild Accountant
--=_alternative 0000613ACC256BD1_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The rumour that Carzalan pennies are debased with mud has arisen directly from the common myth (primarily spread by Guild members) that absolutely any idiot can make it rich in Seagate. &nbsp;And since mud is one of the few free commodities to be found in our fine town ...</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">During my commission as Inspector of the Ducal Mint I can assue you all that Carzalan currency contained no water or soil.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Pennywise</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Guild Accountant</font>
--=_alternative 0000613ACC256BD1_=--


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The rumour that Carzalan pennies are debased with mud has arisen directly
from the common myth (primarily spread by Guild members) that absolutely any
idiot can make it rich in Seagate.  And since mud is one of the few free
commodities to be found in our fine town ...
During my commission as Inspector of the Ducal Mint I can assue you all that
Carzalan currency contained no water or soil.


Pennywise
Guild Accountant

-------------------


It follows, as any dwarf can tell you, that it is NOT filthy lucre - dubious
translations of obscure religious texts notwithstanding.

WordSmith


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The x10 was for weapons.

The +30,000sp is silly / a quick rule of thumb. Michael P's rule seems much
more sensible.

Anyone who wears gilded or true-silvered armour is asking to be mugged,
while someone wearing 100,000sp of magical armour is asking to be left
alone. What does this tell you about cost/benefit?


Note that true-silvered armour may actually be much lighter if you provide
enough true silver - e.g. 6 lbs of true-silver is half that required to make
mithral chainmail, add that to 50% of normal chainmail weight in iron, and
you've got 27 lb chainmail with AP 8 rather than 6, + armouring bonuses, or
a pret-a-porter supply of coinage.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2002 11:43 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Pricing amourer's wares


Errol Cavit wrote:

>You're referring to the +30,000 cost for silvered armour?
>
 From memory this was a replacement for the previous "x 10" for 
silvered, (x 120 for gilded and x 180 for True Silver).

It is massively over-priced... quick calculations show (assuming 
Carzalan silver pennies are indeed silver, and not as suspected by many, 
heavily debased with lesser metals... and mud) that for 30,000 silver 
pennies worth of silver one would have the materials to build two entire 
suits of human sized, solid silver improved plate.

A "cost" to the Armourer of something like 5-15% of the armour weight in 
silver (which for improved plate would be 770 to 2,300sp) would seem 
reasonable to me... even 5% armour weight in silver is pretty heavy for 
"silvering" assuming a dip/coat/veneer... 15% would be a substantial 
alloy percentage.

Applying the same principles to Gold and True Silver would give ranges 
of 9,250 to 27,700 for gold and 96,750 to nearly 300,000 for True 
Silver.  Still looks way too high at the top end -- given the effect 
that the metal conveys -- but either the amount needed is much lower... 
or perhaps True Silvered armour is an inefficient way to spend your 
money.  :-)

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> Errol Cavit wrote:
>
> >You're referring to the +30,000 cost for silvered armour?

Yes, and the fact that it's irrelevant whether the armour is chain for a halfling (10-12 lbs) or
improved jousting plate for a man (90lbs); suggesting that the process is the cost (despite the fact
it takes no longer) & the actual amount of silver is irrelevant.  Now an alchemist might get away
with that, since they trained at transforming gold into thin air, but an armourer ...

> A "cost" to the Armourer of something like 5-15% of the armour weight in
> silver (which for improved plate would be 770 to 2,300sp) would seem
> reasonable to me... even 5% armour weight in silver is pretty heavy for
> "silvering" assuming a dip/coat/veneer... 15% would be a substantial
> alloy percentage.
>
> Applying the same principles to Gold and True Silver would give ranges
> of 9,250 to 27,700 for gold and 96,750 to nearly 300,000 for True
> Silver.  Still looks way too high at the top end -- given the effect
> that the metal conveys -- but either the amount needed is much lower...
> or perhaps True Silvered armour is an inefficient way to spend your
> money.  :-)

There is no longer any benefit to gilding armour -- except that it goes with almost any accessory.
However, before I reread the rules, I was going to suggest that gilding probably is the same as
silvering, but that a small percentage of the silver replaced with gold.  This would give a
mechanism whereby perhaps "truesilvered" alloy might be something like 5% truesilver, 20% silver,
75% iron  -- or about 103 Ksp in hard currency.


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As a random aside to this conversation:

In the MMORPG 'Dark Age of Camelot', I calculate that with one mithral 
piece you can buy about 250,000 pounds of mithral.


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>Note that true-silvered armour may actually be much lighter if you provide
>enough true silver - e.g. 6 lbs of true-silver is half that required to make
>mithral chainmail, add that to 50% of normal chainmail weight in iron, and
>you've got 27 lb chainmail with AP 8 rather than 6, + armouring bonuses, or
>a pret-a-porter supply of coinage.
>
Errr.... is this assuming that True Silver and Mithril are the same 
metal, no?

If that were true then Mithril could be purchased rather than have a 
"Quest" price tag.  I've always assumed that TS and Mithril were related 
in some way, perhaps Mithril is a refined and hardened (by secret 
Dwarven techniques) form of TS, but they aren't exactly the same thing.

Given that, a suit to semi-TS chainmail will have the same weight as 
Iron... though you do gain the benefits of carrying your coinage in a 
form at which most cut-purses are going to balk.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Oh, didn't you know? You just add 0.8% charcoal, and Gloin's your uncle. I
don't know why the dwarves insist on keeping it a secret.

I feel that mithral can't be purchased easily because whenever you ask for
20 pounds of mithral from your local hardware store, they bring men with
white coats. There's not an open labour market for mithralsmiths either -
its not just the forges that are hard to fake.

However, I have a process that turns lead to mithral - I just need a *small*
amount of gold as a catalyst...

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Friday, 7 June 2002 1:59 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Pricing amourer's wares


Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>Note that true-silvered armour may actually be much lighter if you provide
>enough true silver - e.g. 6 lbs of true-silver is half that required to
make
>mithral chainmail, add that to 50% of normal chainmail weight in iron, and
>you've got 27 lb chainmail with AP 8 rather than 6, + armouring bonuses, or
>a pret-a-porter supply of coinage.
>
Errr.... is this assuming that True Silver and Mithril are the same 
metal, no?

If that were true then Mithril could be purchased rather than have a 
"Quest" price tag.  I've always assumed that TS and Mithril were related 
in some way, perhaps Mithril is a refined and hardened (by secret 
Dwarven techniques) form of TS, but they aren't exactly the same thing.

Given that, a suit to semi-TS chainmail will have the same weight as 
Iron... though you do gain the benefits of carrying your coinage in a 
form at which most cut-purses are going to balk.

Cheers,
Martin


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RMansfield@ingnz.com wrote:

> The rumour that Carzalan pennies are debased with mud has arisen 
> directly from the common myth (primarily spread by Guild members) that 
> absolutely any idiot can make it rich in Seagate.

All good myths are rooted in fact -- many idiots have made it rich in 
Seagate.

It's worth noting however, that this myth has not so much been spread 
"by" Guild members as "about" them.

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Okay, it's going well, thanks to those who have contributed so far...

But, I need a couple more news in brief articles... I've got quite a bit 
from Parkie's outing... Seir gets the front page this issue, but I'm fairly 
sure that not all the adventures which went out have reported to the Times.

I could also use some rumours... actually I'm fairly desperate for 
rumours.... Anything juicy out there?

Some more suggestions for what's hot/not and tips for success would also be 
nice...

T'ana Silverwind
Editor
Seagate Times


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