A group of us are currently working on a high level mission and find
ourselves a little underpowered.

We have room for an additional player and would be looking for a blast mage,
a very tough fighter or a high level E&E.

The game is on Tuesdays in Lynfield with William as the GM.

Interested parties please email mandos@dragonquest.org.nz


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Hi there
As my character comes to develop her spying ability, I'm finding the spy
skill to not do the things I expect spies to be able to do.  It was
obviously written without much thought, being a simple derivative of the
Theif skill. I don't believe the spy skill has yet been revamped in our
campaign.  I have several ideas of incorporating into the skill to give it
more of it's own definition, as follows.  At this stage I'm wondering if
it's worth persuing the ideas to come up with a written up proposal, or
whether people are content with the current skill.

Regardless of talk about horse and cart and which should determine which, I
want to produce a skill that is appropriate for the current experience
costings, and so that current spies do not have any conversion worries
regarding ep, and being able to do what they can still do.  I think this is
important for a campaign such as ours.  

This leads to the question of whether the basic structure should a) remian
the same - gain all abilities and increase base chance of performing them
with rank, or 
b) to go to the troubador/courtesan structure of getting to choose
proficiencies at each rank, giving more variety between characters at
middling ranks
c) combination of both - all get some base proficencies, with the option of
adding from a list every 1, 2 or 3 ranks, or at spending additional ep.

Suggested skill proficiencies (in no particular order):
Retain from current skill:
1) Open locks and safes
2) detect secret spetures
3) photographic memory - visual things
4) "photographic" memory - audial things 
4b) extend senses
5) increase stealth ability

Remove from current skill:
-detect & remove traps
-pick pocket

Suggested new stuff:
6) Bribing - recognise the appropriate time, person and amount to bribe for
information, access, etc
7) Gossip/Pump for information - spend time buttering up an informant to
slip in the questions to gain information without them realising they are
giving away information (reduces time consuming roleplaying of chit chat)
8) Blend into society - study locals for some time then be able to act
normally/unsuspiciously, use appropriate clothing/makeup skills to aid this.
9) Simulate emotions - as per courtesan
10) read upside down writing - at 200% -10/rank time normally takes to read
11) spend time and ep to gain knowledge of underworld connections of an
area to utilise that for more information.
12) time/ep discount for learning new languages up to rank 3 - ease of
remebering phrases, but not necessarily the grammar structure etc for
higher ranks of the language.  

Feedback welcomed.  Also, suggested numbers for formulae if required.

Regards,
Sally


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Hi Sally,

I tend to agree that Spy as it stands is so close to Thief that it's 
hard to know why the two should not just be amalgamated.  The other 
option of course (and the one that provides the most interest for 
characters and flexibility) is to make the two more distinct as you suggest.

One question that does arise in my mind though -- do we see Spy as a 
suitable stand-alone DQ skill, or is Spy a profession made up of a 
number of skills -- such as Thief, Courtier/Courtesan, perhaps 
Troubadour, perhaps some Knowledge areas?  Basically, is it "I have Spy 
skill" , or "I am a Spy".

If most of the Thief abilities would be retained in the revised Spy, and 
some Courtier abilities added (Intimidation, Carousing, Simulate 
Emotions, Etiquette, Dress Sense, perhaps Seduction) then I'm not sure 
what a PC would gain from having Spy that they could not gain from 
having Thief and Courtier -- and that having these two skills would give 
them significant flexibility.

Where do you see the value in having a separate Spy skill?  (As opposed 
to a collection of skills making a "professional" package).

Regards,
Martin

salient@kcbbs.gen.nz wrote:

>Hi there
>As my character comes to develop her spying ability, I'm finding the spy
>skill to not do the things I expect spies to be able to do.
>
-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Martin (and Sally)

As another Player who has a character (Glass) who is a Spy (and, quite
explicitly, not a Thief) that is possibly the only major argument I have
against Spy becoming a "professional" conglomeration of the skill sets
noted.
Glass also has all the skills listed in your example: Courtier almost
exactly as listed plus Formal dancing ("Do you Tango?" - 'True Lies'),
Troubadour, Area Knowledge skills, Languages.
But the abilities gained from the Spy skill are also essential to the
professional role, including the memory ability and the difference of
focus reflected in the different base chances between Spy and Thief.

That said, the major differences, professionally, between a Spy and a
Thief, are to mind one of degree.
- What is it that you are taking? (Information or things) A copy or the
original?
- How important is it that the taking remains undiscovered?

In fact, on second thought, it is these two points that the major
difference (to my mind) lies.
As a Spy, it is usually an accurate copy that is sought and it's value
is seriously dimished if the fact of the copy's existence becomes known.
Whereas a Thief, usually desires the original and cares little if it's
removal becomes known after the getaway has been successful.

The planning, process and payoff are often very similar.

TTFN,
Struan.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On 
> Behalf Of martin.dickson@peace.com
> Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 11:03
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision
> 
> 
> Hi Sally,
> 
> I tend to agree that Spy as it stands is so close to Thief that it's 
> hard to know why the two should not just be amalgamated.  The other 
> option of course (and the one that provides the most interest for 
> characters and flexibility) is to make the two more distinct 
> as you suggest.
> 
> One question that does arise in my mind though -- do we see Spy as a 
> suitable stand-alone DQ skill, or is Spy a profession made up of a 
> number of skills -- such as Thief, Courtier/Courtesan, perhaps 
> Troubadour, perhaps some Knowledge areas?  Basically, is it 
> "I have Spy 
> skill" , or "I am a Spy".
> 
> If most of the Thief abilities would be retained in the 
> revised Spy, and 
> some Courtier abilities added (Intimidation, Carousing, Simulate 
> Emotions, Etiquette, Dress Sense, perhaps Seduction) then I'm 
> not sure 
> what a PC would gain from having Spy that they could not gain from 
> having Thief and Courtier -- and that having these two skills 
> would give 
> them significant flexibility.
> 
> Where do you see the value in having a separate Spy skill?  
> (As opposed 
> to a collection of skills making a "professional" package).
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> salient@kcbbs.gen.nz wrote:
> 
> >Hi there
> >As my character comes to develop her spying ability, I'm finding the 
> >spy skill to not do the things I expect spies to be able to do.
> >
> -- 
> 
>  _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: 
> martin.dickson@peace.com
> _/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
>        Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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(Mundane) information gathering roles include :
* The mole - who insinuates themselves in an organisation (long con)
* The seducer - who turns other people to their side, knowingly or otherwise
* The thief - who breaks/sneaks in & steals papers/secrets
* The saboteur - who breaks/sneaks in & destroys people/equipment
* The poser - who gleans information from talking to people (short con)
* The eavesdropper - observation techniques/magics to overhear other people
* The analyst - who collates information from all of these and draws
conclusions
* The cleaner - who tidies up other agents' mistakes
* The watcher - tails people, observes behaviour, meetings, etc.
* The cryptographer - messages coded/decoded/broken
* Others - forgers, messengers, tailors, language/accent coaches, thugs,
quartermasters, etc.
* Also Information transfer - blind drops, hand-offs, etc.

A person in the spy "industry" might be someone who does any of these, or
all. Some of these roles are best done by Thieves, Assassins or Philosophers
in the spy network. However, the best general field agents should be Spies.

I think Spies need some subset of the above skills. There should be no need
for a Spy to have any Thief skills - that is, locks, safes, traps, pick
pockets. Some sorts of Spies will operate as thieves to gather their
information. Some will operate as assassins. Some as courtiers. Or they
could hire professionals in those fields. Its what they do with the
information that makes them Spies. However, they will want to get involved
in the field-work, and need some style of profession to allow it.

How about:
Spies get some info skills - maybe some of photo memory, phrase memory,
extend senses, stealth, detect secret apertures, collate information (like
mil sci assess enemy tactics), coding, tailing, forgery, general
understanding of spy stuff. They choose another skill - thief, spy,
courtier, which they are linked to - and this gives them a 50% discount on
the skill of equal/lower rank - like the spy/thief link now, and maybe a
bonus to an overlap skill - +2%/ Spy Rank to Seduction, Open Locks, or Add
Poison to Drink skill.

Thus, you can be a Courtier/Spy like Glass, a Thief/Spy like in DQII, or an
Assassin/Spy if you want to be nasty. Maybe even a Philosopher Spy for the
spider in the middle of a web.

That might deal with the overlap, and create a range of distinct flavours,
without going as far as troubadour/courtier sub-skill lists.

Not convinced, but considering.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 11:03 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision


Hi Sally,

I tend to agree that Spy as it stands is so close to Thief that it's 
hard to know why the two should not just be amalgamated.  The other 
option of course (and the one that provides the most interest for 
characters and flexibility) is to make the two more distinct as you suggest.

One question that does arise in my mind though -- do we see Spy as a 
suitable stand-alone DQ skill, or is Spy a profession made up of a 
number of skills -- such as Thief, Courtier/Courtesan, perhaps 
Troubadour, perhaps some Knowledge areas?  Basically, is it "I have Spy 
skill" , or "I am a Spy".

If most of the Thief abilities would be retained in the revised Spy, and 
some Courtier abilities added (Intimidation, Carousing, Simulate 
Emotions, Etiquette, Dress Sense, perhaps Seduction) then I'm not sure 
what a PC would gain from having Spy that they could not gain from 
having Thief and Courtier -- and that having these two skills would give 
them significant flexibility.

Where do you see the value in having a separate Spy skill?  (As opposed 
to a collection of skills making a "professional" package).

Regards,
Martin

salient@kcbbs.gen.nz wrote:

>Hi there
>As my character comes to develop her spying ability, I'm finding the spy
>skill to not do the things I expect spies to be able to do.
>
-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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I like.

Will consider more.

TTFN,

> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of AndrewW@datacom.co.nz
> How about:
> Spies get some info skills - maybe some of photo memory, 
> phrase memory, extend senses, stealth, detect secret 
> apertures, collate information (like mil sci assess enemy 
> tactics), coding, tailing, forgery, general understanding of 
> spy stuff. They choose another skill - thief, spy, courtier, 
> which they are linked to - and this gives them a 50% discount 
> on the skill of equal/lower rank - like the spy/thief link 
> now, and maybe a bonus to an overlap skill - +2%/ Spy Rank to 
> Seduction, Open Locks, or Add Poison to Drink skill.
> 
> Thus, you can be a Courtier/Spy like Glass, a Thief/Spy like 
> in DQII, or an Assassin/Spy if you want to be nasty. Maybe 
> even a Philosopher Spy for the spider in the middle of a web.
> 
> That might deal with the overlap, and create a range of 
> distinct flavours, without going as far as 
> troubadour/courtier sub-skill lists.
> 
> Not convinced, but considering.
> 
> Andrew


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-----Original Message-----
From: Sally

<snip>  At this stage I'm wondering if
it's worth persuing the ideas to come up with a written up proposal, or
whether people are content with the current skill.

[EGC] I agree, the current skill is somewhat ineffective, being a cheaper,
less effective Thief skill, with a couple of abilities that it isn't worth
having at more than low ranks. Higher ranks are only useful if the GM
'gives' you abilities not specifically listed.

<snip>

This leads to the question of whether the basic structure should a) remian
the same - gain all abilities and increase base chance of performing them
with rank, or 
b) to go to the troubador/courtesan structure of getting to choose
proficiencies at each rank, giving more variety between characters at
middling ranks
c) combination of both - all get some base proficencies, with the option of
adding from a list every 1, 2 or 3 ranks, or at spending additional ep.


[EGC] Another option is 
d) revamp Spy _and_ Thief, and have option b) or c) for the 'Covert Ops'
skill.
This effects rather more PCs, of course.



Suggested skill proficiencies (in no particular order):
Retain from current skill:
1) Open locks and safes
2) detect secret spetures
3) photographic memory - visual things
4) "photographic" memory - audial things 
4b) extend senses
5) increase stealth ability

[EGC] Generally agree

Remove from current skill:
-detect & remove traps
-pick pocket
[EGC] Actually, some kind of sleight of hand seems like a reasonable option
for spies. OTOH, I would think many 'scout/pointman' type thieves aren't
interested in picking pockets.


Suggested new stuff:
6) Bribing - recognise the appropriate time, person and amount to bribe for
information, access, etc
[EGC] the 'who' aspect _can_ come from Bureaucracy in Courtier. A skill in
working out people's weaknesses could be useful (is this Intimidation?)


7) Gossip/Pump for information - spend time buttering up an informant to
slip in the questions to gain information without them realising they are
giving away information (reduces time consuming roleplaying of chit chat)
8) Blend into society - study locals for some time then be able to act
normally/unsuspiciously, use appropriate clothing/makeup skills to aid this.

[EGC] This is more general than the 'Dress Sense' in courtier IMO.

9) Simulate emotions - as per courtesan
10) read upside down writing - at 200% -10/rank time normally takes to read
11) spend time and ep to gain knowledge of underworld connections of an
area to utilise that for more information.
12) time/ep discount for learning new languages up to rank 3 - ease of
remebering phrases, but not necessarily the grammar structure etc for
higher ranks of the language.  

[EGC] Spycraft, in the sense of letter drops (selection and implementation),
tailing contacts, that kind of thing doesn't seem to  be covered.

Cheers
Errol


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At 10:29 27/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Suggested skill proficiencies (in no particular order):
>Retain from current skill:
>1) Open locks and safes
>2) detect secret spetures
>3) photographic memory - visual things
>4) "photographic" memory - audial things
>4b) extend senses
>5) increase stealth ability
>
>Remove from current skill:
>-detect & remove traps
>-pick pocket

I'd prefer to see thief and spy amalgamated into a single "Covert 
Operations" skill - I know that term is too modern, but I've yet to come up 
with a suitable fantasy equivalent. My reasoning is that I see relatively 
few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a 
"thief" or a "spy". They take them because they feel they need some of the 
abilities included in those skills - and incidentally find other skills 
thrown into the mix as being quite inappropriate. Thief/Spy are the "urban 
ranger" skills that let you spot trouble in a non-wilderness environment. 
Adventurers need that kind of skill, even when they never dream of actually 
stealing stuff. For example, if you see your character as a "thief-taker" 
or "bounty hunter" you have to take either thief or spy to get the skills 
you need.

I suspect a lot of players would be annoyed if spies lost the ability to 
find and remove traps. It's one of the major reasons people take this skill 
group. On the other hand, only those who really want to should have to take 
it - or any other skill in the covert skills grouping.

Jacqui


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If you take Spy, its because you are a Spy. DQ is a profession-based system.
You are trained by Assassins to slit throats in alleys, or by Spies to break
in & steal stuff (poorly).

To quote the Assassin skill, "Assassin is not a skill which should be
carelessly chosen." This is a lifestyle decision, not a collection of
nice-to-have skills.

Breaking into people's basements (dungeons) is the same as breaking into
their bedrooms. You are still a looter by stealth, driven by avarice - a
thief by any other name.

If you took a profession for a skill that no longer exists, you can bring
that up in conversion and maybe get the EP transferred to Thief. Its a
conversion issue, and a player issue.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: flamis@ihug.co.nz [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]

I'd prefer to see thief and spy amalgamated into a single "Covert 
Operations" skill - I know that term is too modern, but I've yet to come up 
with a suitable fantasy equivalent. My reasoning is that I see relatively 
few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a 
"thief" or a "spy". They take them because they feel they need some of the 
abilities included in those skills - and incidentally find other skills 
thrown into the mix as being quite inappropriate. Thief/Spy are the "urban 
ranger" skills that let you spot trouble in a non-wilderness environment. 

Adventurers need that kind of skill, even when they never dream of actually 
stealing stuff. For example, if you see your character as a "thief-taker" 
or "bounty hunter" you have to take either thief or spy to get the skills 
you need.

I suspect a lot of players would be annoyed if spies lost the ability to 
find and remove traps. It's one of the major reasons people take this skill 
group. On the other hand, only those who really want to should have to take 
it - or any other skill in the covert skills grouping.

Jacqui


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Has there been a change to the list so that it displays Email addresses
rather than the Display Name on each post or is it just me?

Mandos
/s


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> My reasoning is that I see relatively
> few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a
> "thief" or a "spy". They take them because they feel they need
> some of the
> abilities included in those skills - and incidentally find other skills
> thrown into the mix as being quite inappropriate. Thief/Spy are
> the "urban
> ranger" skills that let you spot trouble in a non-wilderness environment.
> Adventurers need that kind of skill, even when they never dream
> of actually
> stealing stuff. For example, if you see your character as a "thief-taker"
> or "bounty hunter" you have to take either thief or spy to get the skills
> you need.

Actually while I agree with the possibility of amalgamating them, I disagree
with the reasoning for it.

Most of the Spies and thieves of good to high ranks in the skills have
chosen them for the reason of being a thief or spy. While a lot of players
do not advertise this as there is no real need in most adventurers I believe
the spy/theif is a very valid character driven choice.

Hmm in thinking about the characters involved most of them are actually
driven to be a Spy OR a Theif with only a few character driven to learn all
of the dark arts so I will change my mind part way through an Email and go
back to liking them as seperate skills.

Mandos
/s


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It's happening for me too, so presumably everyone.

It wasn't happening on the 9th

-----Original Message-----
From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 1:29 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] List changes.


Has there been a change to the list so that it displays Email addresses
rather than the Display Name on each post or is it just me?

Mandos
/s


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> I'd prefer to see thief and spy amalgamated into a single "Covert
> Operations" skill - I know that term is too modern, but I've yet to come up
> with a suitable fantasy equivalent. My reasoning is that I see relatively
> few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a
> "thief" or a "spy".

I strongly disagree  (Hagan is a spy, but not a criminal).  Conversely what is the use of Spy
memorisation skills to a pick-pocket or "applied locksmithing"

[...]
> I suspect a lot of players would be annoyed if spies lost the ability to
> find and remove traps. It's one of the major reasons people take this skill
> group.

Not personally; but of course it may well be a major reason ... because there's nothing much in the
Spy skill as written!   Now there may well be characters who are, or want to be spy/thieves (but
that is an other matter).

I see a "generic" spy as someone who has good memory; observational skills; and definitely
*disguise* (!!!) -- not in the sense of fake noses, but in knowing how to look like a generic
merchant, or a labourer's apprentice, or a tricoteuse, etc.   Perhaps there are lots of little
abilities or (as with troubadour or courtier): bribery; lip-reading, shorthand, whatever, ...

However the strength of many PCs is that they are not JUST a professional ___ [fill in blank], but
that they have a synthesis of skills.  I anticipate that would be spy-courtier (ranging from the
ambassador, or a diplomatic attache, down to freelance weasel); spy-troubadours who listen & look
whilst playing the music; spy-rangers or spy-ranger-milscientists ("scouts") for the outdoor
spying -- especially on military forces; ...  etc.

"Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business." (Chap13, v.18)

This is over & above the fact that successful spies may find it best to pursue a "legitimate"
profession or artisan skill.  Besides, as every secret-police master knows, you can hang or
"disappear" travelling merchants, troubadours or tinkers as spies and most of the populace will
believe the verdict.

> On the other hand, only those who really want to should have to take
> it - or any other skill in the covert skills grouping.

Yes! this is the point.  I can see some spies wanting to be able to pick pockets, or locks, etc.  Or
even some thieves wanting to maximise the gain that they make from a burglary.
A good mechanism for such characters *may* be to rank both thief and the new Spy skill  -- to
whatever proportion of ranks suits the character concerned.

regards, Michael.
===============
PS: XIII. The Use of Spies

 6. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other men.
7. Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local spies; (2) inward spies; (3)
converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies.
8. When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the secret system. This is called
"divine manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's most precious faculty.
9. Having local spies means employing the services of the inhabitants of a district.
10. Having inward spies, making use of officials of the enemy.
11. Having converted spies, getting hold of the enemy's spies and using them for our own purposes.
12. Having doomed spies, doing certain things openly for purposes of deception, and allowing our
spies to know of them and report them to the enemy.
13. Surviving spies, finally, are those who bring back news from the enemy's camp.
14. Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate relations to be maintained than
with spies. None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other business should greater secrecy be
preserved.
15. Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive sagacity.
16. They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and straightforwardness.
17. Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth of their reports.
18. Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business.
19. If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is ripe, he must be put to death
together with the man to whom the secret was told.
20. Whether the object be to crush an army, to storm a city, or to assassinate an individual, it is
always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the aides-de-camp, and
door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be commissioned to ascertain
these.
21. The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out, tempted with bribes, led away
and comfortably housed.
[...]
27. Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest
intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. Spies are a
most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move.


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At 13:27 27/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>If you take Spy, its because you are a Spy. DQ is a profession-based system.
>You are trained by Assassins to slit throats in alleys, or by Spies to break
>in & steal stuff (poorly).
>
>To quote the Assassin skill, "Assassin is not a skill which should be
>carelessly chosen." This is a lifestyle decision, not a collection of
>nice-to-have skills.

I didn't actually mention Assassin skill, and I suspect its abilities would 
not be able to be integrated into a combined covert operations skill.

The fact remains that there is no way to learn how to effectively spot 
hidden entrances in an urban environment without going to Spy class or 
Thief school. So a character who is intent on breaking the case, and 
finding the thieves hiding in their sub-urban enclave has to learn one of 
these skills. The idea that in so doing you become a "spy" or a "thief" is 
simply labelling.

A similar argument applies to many of the sub-skills in Thief or Spy. Our 
characters are adventurers by profession (well, most of them are). In order 
to carry out that profession effectively they need to learn certain skills 
which many also be those used by professional thieves or spies. A NPC who 
acts as a bodyguard might learn assassin skills in order to better protect 
her principle from assassins, but would never call herself an assassin. 
Sometimes you have to learn how the opposition does their thing. And the 
only way to do this in DQ is to learn that profession.

>Breaking into people's basements (dungeons) is the same as breaking into
>their bedrooms. You are still a looter by stealth, driven by avarice - a
>thief by any other name.

Are you? Motives vary - you might be breaking in to rescue a kidnap victim, 
or find the evidence that will trap the blackmailer...

>If you took a profession for a skill that no longer exists, you can bring
>that up in conversion and maybe get the EP transferred to Thief. Its a
>conversion issue, and a player issue.

But, what if I don't WANT to be a thief...

Jacqui


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AndrewW@datacom.co.nz wrote:

>How about:
>Spies get some info skills - maybe some of photo memory, phrase memory,
>extend senses, stealth, detect secret apertures, collate information (like
>mil sci assess enemy tactics), coding, tailing, forgery, general
>understanding of spy stuff.
>
If enough Spy-like abilities can be found that do not significantly 
overlap or replace another skill (or serve solely to replace 
role-playing) then I'd be keen to see the current pseudo-Thief Spy be 
replaced with a skill with those abilities.

> They choose another skill - thief, spy,
>courtier, which they are linked to - and this gives them a ... discount
>
Not sure I see a need for a discount (though there could be cause 
depending on the exact skills that made up Spy).  If new-Spy was approx 
same EP cost as current-Spy then its not an overly expensive skill 
anyway. (Never mind, all a bit cart-before-horse anyway...)

>Maybe even a Philosopher Spy for the spider in the middle of a web.
>
Moriarty.  :-)

>That might deal with the overlap, and create a range of distinct flavours,
>without going as far as troubadour/courtier sub-skill lists.
>
It doesn't automatically answer Sally's queston re. skill style -- the 
new-Spy could still be structured in either the Courtier or Thief 
fashion -- pick one skill per x ranks, or get all at increasing BC. 
 (There's also Healer style -- get one skill _in order_ per x ranks) 
 There are reasons for each of these -- Healer's structure prevents 
powerful abilities at low rank, Courtier's is better IMHO for more 
flavour-type/character-personality type skills.  Yes, if the sub-skills 
of new-Spy all pretty much applied to all Spies then I agree Thief 
structure is probably best -- but other structures need not be discounted.

>Not convinced, but considering.
>
Not convinced (yet) that there are enough _in genre_  Spy abilities. 
 But willing to be convinced.

Regards,
Martin

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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-----Original Message-----
From: flamis@ihug.co.nz 

>Breaking into people's basements (dungeons) is the same as breaking into
>their bedrooms. You are still a looter by stealth, driven by avarice - a
>thief by any other name.

Are you? Motives vary - you might be breaking in to rescue a kidnap victim, 
or find the evidence that will trap the blackmailer...

>If you took a profession for a skill that no longer exists, you can bring
>that up in conversion and maybe get the EP transferred to Thief. Its a
>conversion issue, and a player issue.

But, what if I don't WANT to be a thief...

[EGC]Try explaining that to the town guard when they find the lockpicks on
you.


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At 13:28 27/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Actually while I agree with the possibility of amalgamating them, I disagree
>with the reasoning for it.
>
>Most of the Spies and thieves of good to high ranks in the skills have
>chosen them for the reason of being a thief or spy. While a lot of players
>do not advertise this as there is no real need in most adventurers I believe
>the spy/theif is a very valid character driven choice.

Having a skill, even at high ranks, doesn't necessarily make that your 
profession - many adventurers consider adventuring to be their profession, 
whatever the skills they have mastered. There are several adventurers who 
have high ranks in courtier without considering themselves to be 
professional courtiers - they're more adventurers with good people skills.

Many characters have medium ranks in thief or spy, without considering that 
to be a career choice - more part of the package which makes a successful 
adventurer. Once you get to ranks approaching mastery, you're like to see 
yourself as a professional thief or spy, and I don't see a problem with 
retaining those titles - I'm just hoping for a bit more flexibility here.

Jacqui Smith


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flamis@ihug.co.nz wrote:

> The idea that in [learning thief skills] you become a "spy" or a 
> "thief" is simply labelling.
> [snip]
> But, what if I don't WANT to be a thief... 

I'm confused.  According to your own argument it's just a label.  If a 
character doesn't want to be a thief -- don't steal things!

Just rifle though people's personal mail and call yourself a spy.  :-)

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> Many characters have medium ranks in thief or spy, without
> considering that
> to be a career choice - more part of the package which makes a successful
> adventurer. Once you get to ranks approaching mastery, you're like to see
> yourself as a professional thief or spy, and I don't see a problem with
> retaining those titles - I'm just hoping for a bit more flexibility here.

Exactly how do you gain more flexibility by removing an option?

You are proscribing removing a valid option (albeit similar in flavour to
another option) and then telling people they have more flexibility?

Something seems wrong in the logic there.

Mandos
/s


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[EGC] Is this "Dell' arte della guerra"?, or the better known one? If it
goes into the detail of techniques, it would be an indication as to the 'the
of the art' that is reasonable.

-----Original Message-----
From: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz 
===============
PS: XIII. The Use of Spies

 6. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other
men.
omfortably housed.
[...]
27. Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use
the highest
intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve
great results. Spies are a
most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability
to move.


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-----Original Message-----
From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]

> [JS] Many characters have medium ranks in thief or spy, without
> considering that
> to be a career choice - more part of the package which makes a successful
> adventurer. Once you get to ranks approaching mastery, you're like to see
> yourself as a professional thief or spy, and I don't see a problem with
> retaining those titles - I'm just hoping for a bit more flexibility here.

[mandos]Exactly how do you gain more flexibility by removing an option?

[EGC]
Jacqui has been advocating merging the skills, and giving the ability to
choose which sub-skills to learn.



[mandos]You are proscribing removing a valid option (albeit similar in
flavour to
another option) 

[EGC]
I wouldn't describe the current _writeup_ of Spy as a valid option past
about Rank 3 (and that mainly because of the double-up on stealth). It is
mainly a flavour thing (spy sounds 'nicer' than thief). The _writeup_
doesn't give you the skills a master spy would have. GMs generally (in my
experience) let you do sensible things that the skill probably should cover.
Spy pretty much gives you lower chances for less EP and the same amount of
time.

Cheers
Errol


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At 14:45 27/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
> > Many characters have medium ranks in thief or spy, without
> > considering that
> > to be a career choice - more part of the package which makes a successful
> > adventurer. Once you get to ranks approaching mastery, you're like to see
> > yourself as a professional thief or spy, and I don't see a problem with
> > retaining those titles - I'm just hoping for a bit more flexibility here.
>
>Exactly how do you gain more flexibility by removing an option?
>
>You are proscribing removing a valid option (albeit similar in flavour to
>another option) and then telling people they have more flexibility?

I am?

Sorry, I don't see how. What I'm after is a combined Spy/thief skill with 
lots of different options leading to multiple different "career paths" as 
it were. Something much more flexible than we have now.

Jacqui


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Hi All,

Im trying to locate a contact email address for Ian
Wood. If anyone has this could they sent it to me
please. 

Thanks

Terry

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