Does appear that way to me to.

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
mandos@iconz.net
Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 1:29 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] List changes.

Has there been a change to the list so that it displays Email addresses
rather than the Display Name on each post or is it just me?

Mandos
/s


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One aspect touched on earlier, is the art of recognising truely important
information. Any fool can overhear the Archduke. Oops, I believe that gel
has recently become a nun or something like.

No no, the important thing is sifting the wheat from the chaff.

And knowing how to act on that information. Improper use of information may
endanger the source, or may preclude learning similar information in the
future (or from another source).

As such, a structured approach is becoming desireable - one where at higher
ranks, one learns skills appropriate to a master thief, or theif master.
Perhaps the re-write of MilSci is an appropriate precedent.

I believe Sally has the correct approach, and she should prototype a strong,
separate skill for us.

IMHO, of course.

cheers,

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 14:14
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision


> > I'd prefer to see thief and spy amalgamated into a single "Covert
> > Operations" skill - I know that term is too modern, but I've yet to come
up
> > with a suitable fantasy equivalent. My reasoning is that I see
relatively
> > few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a
> > "thief" or a "spy".
>
> I strongly disagree  (Hagan is a spy, but not a criminal).  Conversely
what is the use of Spy
> memorisation skills to a pick-pocket or "applied locksmithing"
>
> [...]
> > I suspect a lot of players would be annoyed if spies lost the ability to
> > find and remove traps. It's one of the major reasons people take this
skill
> > group.
>
> Not personally; but of course it may well be a major reason ... because
there's nothing much in the
> Spy skill as written!   Now there may well be characters who are, or want
to be spy/thieves (but
> that is an other matter).
>
> I see a "generic" spy as someone who has good memory; observational
skills; and definitely
> *disguise* (!!!) -- not in the sense of fake noses, but in knowing how to
look like a generic
> merchant, or a labourer's apprentice, or a tricoteuse, etc.   Perhaps
there are lots of little
> abilities or (as with troubadour or courtier): bribery; lip-reading,
shorthand, whatever, ...
>
> However the strength of many PCs is that they are not JUST a professional
___ [fill in blank], but
> that they have a synthesis of skills.  I anticipate that would be
spy-courtier (ranging from the
> ambassador, or a diplomatic attache, down to freelance weasel);
spy-troubadours who listen & look
> whilst playing the music; spy-rangers or spy-ranger-milscientists
("scouts") for the outdoor
> spying -- especially on military forces; ...  etc.
>
> "Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business."
(Chap13, v.18)
>
> This is over & above the fact that successful spies may find it best to
pursue a "legitimate"
> profession or artisan skill.  Besides, as every secret-police master
knows, you can hang or
> "disappear" travelling merchants, troubadours or tinkers as spies and most
of the populace will
> believe the verdict.
>
> > On the other hand, only those who really want to should have to take
> > it - or any other skill in the covert skills grouping.
>
> Yes! this is the point.  I can see some spies wanting to be able to pick
pockets, or locks, etc.  Or
> even some thieves wanting to maximise the gain that they make from a
burglary.
> A good mechanism for such characters *may* be to rank both thief and the
new Spy skill  -- to
> whatever proportion of ranks suits the character concerned.
>
> regards, Michael.
> ===============
> PS: XIII. The Use of Spies
>
>  6. Knowledge of the enemy's dispositions can only be obtained from other
men.
> 7. Hence the use of spies, of whom there are five classes: (1) Local
spies; (2) inward spies; (3)
> converted spies; (4) doomed spies; (5) surviving spies.
> 8. When these five kinds of spy are all at work, none can discover the
secret system. This is called
> "divine manipulation of the threads." It is the sovereign's most precious
faculty.
> 9. Having local spies means employing the services of the inhabitants of a
district.
> 10. Having inward spies, making use of officials of the enemy.
> 11. Having converted spies, getting hold of the enemy's spies and using
them for our own purposes.
> 12. Having doomed spies, doing certain things openly for purposes of
deception, and allowing our
> spies to know of them and report them to the enemy.
> 13. Surviving spies, finally, are those who bring back news from the
enemy's camp.
> 14. Hence it is that which none in the whole army are more intimate
relations to be maintained than
> with spies. None should be more liberally rewarded. In no other business
should greater secrecy be
> preserved.
> 15. Spies cannot be usefully employed without a certain intuitive
sagacity.
> 16. They cannot be properly managed without benevolence and
straightforwardness.
> 17. Without subtle ingenuity of mind, one cannot make certain of the truth
of their reports.
> 18. Be subtle! be subtle! and use your spies for every kind of business.
> 19. If a secret piece of news is divulged by a spy before the time is
ripe, he must be put to death
> together with the man to whom the secret was told.
> 20. Whether the object be to crush an army, to storm a city, or to
assassinate an individual, it is
> always necessary to begin by finding out the names of the attendants, the
aides-de-camp, and
> door-keepers and sentries of the general in command. Our spies must be
commissioned to ascertain
> these.
> 21. The enemy's spies who have come to spy on us must be sought out,
tempted with bribes, led away
> and comfortably housed.
> [...]
> 27. Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will
use the highest
> intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve
great results. Spies are a
> most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability
to move.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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----- Original Message -----
From: <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Saturday, 28 September 2002 02:30
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision


> But, what if I don't WANT to be a thief...
>

Am I correct in interpreting this to say that you are advocating the ability
to do thief-like things without acting, thinking or behaving like a thief?

Or to do spy like things without thinking or acting like a spy?

Such a desire goes against my understanding of the strengths of DQ, and I
trust it is rejected as being against the good of the game.


I hope that DQ characters are more than a collection of success chances and
damage. Action-oriented gamers will, I guess, collect a 'swiss-army knife'
set of skills, which they roll out as occasion demands. But where is the
thread that holds the reasoning behind the character? Surely we are beyond
mere survival, and can bring emotions and depth to the game.


If you do not wish to be a thief, do not be one. But please do not complain
that you cannot do thief-like things.

And the same for Spy. Isil Eth has not taken spy, even though it probably
would be useful, because she does not consider herself a spy and would not
delve into another's secrets. On the other hand, she is less strict on the
ownership of men (er, husbands). And enjoys a good gossip.


yikes, this went on for a while...

Ian


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oops,

I think I got this completely wrong - apologies to Jackie,

another post to follow,

Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Saturday, 28 September 2002 11:34
Subject: [dq] character based roll playing, was Spy skill revision


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <flamis@ihug.co.nz>
> To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
> Sent: Saturday, 28 September 2002 02:30
> Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision
>
>
> > But, what if I don't WANT to be a thief...
> >
>
> Am I correct in interpreting this to say that you are advocating the
ability
> to do thief-like things without acting, thinking or behaving like a thief?
>
> Or to do spy like things without thinking or acting like a spy?
>
> Such a desire goes against my understanding of the strengths of DQ, and I
> trust it is rejected as being against the good of the game.
>
>
> I hope that DQ characters are more than a collection of success chances
and
> damage. Action-oriented gamers will, I guess, collect a 'swiss-army knife'
> set of skills, which they roll out as occasion demands. But where is the
> thread that holds the reasoning behind the character? Surely we are beyond
> mere survival, and can bring emotions and depth to the game.
>
>
> If you do not wish to be a thief, do not be one. But please do not
complain
> that you cannot do thief-like things.
>
> And the same for Spy. Isil Eth has not taken spy, even though it probably
> would be useful, because she does not consider herself a spy and would not
> delve into another's secrets. On the other hand, she is less strict on the
> ownership of men (er, husbands). And enjoys a good gossip.
>
>
> yikes, this went on for a while...
>
> Ian
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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At first, I like the separation of skill/motivation that was mooted by
someone (posts deleted). It seems sensible for:

spy     information based
thief    assets based

The sticking point seems to be the ingress/egress profeiciency. In NZ, theft
is taking someone else's property. Breaking and entry is burglary. Perhaps
we need another skill...

New Skill: Burglar. The act of getting into and out of locked rooms etc

nah.

I would see burglary skills being more attuned to Theif.
But some have argued that it is also aligned with Spy. Seems reasonable.
there are spies in fiction that would raid documents from a safe, but leave
the diamonds.

So I guess I am more in favour of each skill having sub skills which you
choose as you advance through the ranks (like troubadour and courtier).
Perhaps they would have mandatory zero level skills based on information
(spy) and assets (theif).

This means you can choose the skillets to fit your character.

spy     information and burglary based
thief    assets and burglary based


Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, 27 September 2002 13:27
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy skill revision


> If you take Spy, its because you are a Spy. DQ is a profession-based
system.
> You are trained by Assassins to slit throats in alleys, or by Spies to
break
> in & steal stuff (poorly).
>
> To quote the Assassin skill, "Assassin is not a skill which should be
> carelessly chosen." This is a lifestyle decision, not a collection of
> nice-to-have skills.
>
> Breaking into people's basements (dungeons) is the same as breaking into
> their bedrooms. You are still a looter by stealth, driven by avarice - a
> thief by any other name.
>
> If you took a profession for a skill that no longer exists, you can bring
> that up in conversion and maybe get the EP transferred to Thief. Its a
> conversion issue, and a player issue.
>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: flamis@ihug.co.nz [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
>
> I'd prefer to see thief and spy amalgamated into a single "Covert
> Operations" skill - I know that term is too modern, but I've yet to come
up
> with a suitable fantasy equivalent. My reasoning is that I see relatively
> few Guild members taking these skills because they see themselves as a
> "thief" or a "spy". They take them because they feel they need some of the
> abilities included in those skills - and incidentally find other skills
> thrown into the mix as being quite inappropriate. Thief/Spy are the "urban
> ranger" skills that let you spot trouble in a non-wilderness environment.
>
> Adventurers need that kind of skill, even when they never dream of
actually
> stealing stuff. For example, if you see your character as a "thief-taker"
> or "bounty hunter" you have to take either thief or spy to get the skills
> you need.
>
> I suspect a lot of players would be annoyed if spies lost the ability to
> find and remove traps. It's one of the major reasons people take this
skill
> group. On the other hand, only those who really want to should have to
take
> it - or any other skill in the covert skills grouping.
>
> Jacqui
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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At 11:34 28/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Am I correct in interpreting this to say that you are advocating the ability
>to do thief-like things without acting, thinking or behaving like a thief?
>
>Or to do spy like things without thinking or acting like a spy?
>
>Such a desire goes against my understanding of the strengths of DQ, and I
>trust it is rejected as being against the good of the game.

I think you have missed my point completely. There are numerous professions 
which utilise the skills found in Thief and Spy, even in a medieval world. 
Among these I would count such professions as "Bounty Hunter", 
"Thief-taker", even a member of the town guard! Characters who wish to play 
these professions should be able to, by taking an appropriate set of covert 
skills.

One set of covert skills would be appropriate to the professional Thief, a 
different, but over-lapping set to the professional Spy, and it's sensible 
to indicate this in the rules, while allowing sufficient flexibility to 
tailor individual types of Thief or Spy. A specialist pick-pocket may never 
learn the skills of the cat burglar - especially if she doesn't like 
heights! It's also appropriate to indicate which set are appropriate to the 
professional Adventurer who chooses to work primarily in urban environments.

I suppose I am advocating a move away from the "profession" model for these 
skills (as Healer, Alchemist etc) to the more flexible structure of 
Troubadour or Courtier. I'm not sure how to implement it, but it feels like 
it could be a lot more fun.

Jacqui Smith


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