<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Ian at Dawn's Haven&quot; dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</b></font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>terryintransit@yahoo.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">27/09/2002 23:37</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to dq</font>
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<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
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<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[dq] Looking for Ian Wood.</font></table>
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<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hi All,<br>
<br>
Im trying to locate a contact email address for Ian<br>
Wood. If anyone has this could they sent it to me<br>
please. <br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Terry<br>
<br>
__________________________________________________<br>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
New DSL Internet Access from SBC &amp; Yahoo!<br>
http://sbc.yahoo.com<br>
<br>
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<br>

This brings up an important factor:

> Or to do spy like things without thinking or acting like a spy?

Should skills, & rank in skills, show up on DA? -- I've always assumed so, but I believe we've
glossed over the implications.  The character has learnt the skill by cashing in EP and it *is*
intrinsic (You can't "navigate" a ship of certain length unless you have sufficient rank).

Is this desirable?  For PCs it doesn't matter much, indeed it can be a helpful GM tool  -- e.g. once
an NPC got off a ship & when his reasonable facsimile "returned" that afternoon he was 3 ranks
higher in assassin (made sure the party got a nudge in the right direction).

However, why bother with a secret police force when a namer, celestial, whatever (even an earth mage
!),  could identify all the professional spies in town in a few hours.   I agree that you can do
nothing about gifted amateurs like Isil Eth (but one never could anyway).  It's bizarre if, in
practice, the best people at using a skill would be those with no training in it.

Either a successful spy MUST have an illusionist on tap [it's a loathsome spell, by the way], or one
is forced to introduce other magics.  For instance, I *have* had DA-scrambling magic; but it's been
high level stuff & clearly inappropriate for subtlety -- Hypothetical case: partymember notices
suspicious "orange-seller" almost within earshot; Lashes her with a DA ("rank in Spy?"); gets answer
"woolly mammoth."

regards, Michael


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m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz wrote:

>Should skills, & rank in skills, show up on DA?
>
 From the re-write (v2.02) of Auras (in play for a couple of years now) 
-- the last two lines are the most relevant:

"Information that may be gained from a living being includes: its 
Generic True Name, its plane of origin, approximately how far it is 
through its life-span (e.g. juvenile, 50%, about 100 years old), its 
general state of health (e.g. healthy, diseased, 1/2 Endurance), 
aptitude with a magical ability (e.g. low overall, Rank of specific 
ability) and to which College of magic (if any) it is attuned. These 
last two facts are discernible because the skills that they represent 
have an affect on the level and type of magic in the entity's Aura. 
Relatively little information can be divined regarding the non-magical 
learned abilities of an entity. It will be possible to learn what is the 
being's most intrinsic skill or ability, but lesser skills may not be 
sufficiently intrinsic so as to have made an impression on the being's 
aura".

So... most intrinsic skill or ability, yes (what is it that "makes" the 
person), but lesser abilities, no.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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If you allow DA to reveal a skill (which I think most of us do), then you
have to change how people react to this info. Otherwise there are fatal
wards on every city entrance for Assassins & Spies (except those carrying an
orange silk 'kerchief).

The easiest cultural change is to behave like gentlemen. It is not illegal
to carry a lethal weapon (dress rapier) or to be capable of betraying a lord
(spies, also most petty nobles & palace servants). It is the deed, not the
potential that marks a criminal. This fits in with the treatment of
adventurers, who have the potential to destroy most towns they visit, yet
are assumed to be politic, if not polite.

The only exception seems to be preparation which has no moral excuse.
Garottes, poison, undead & mind magics most often fall under this exception.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
Sent: Monday, 30 September 2002 8:55 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DA, was Spy skill revision


This brings up an important factor:

> Or to do spy like things without thinking or acting like a spy?

Should skills, & rank in skills, show up on DA? -- I've always assumed so,
but I believe we've
glossed over the implications.  The character has learnt the skill by
cashing in EP and it *is*
intrinsic (You can't "navigate" a ship of certain length unless you have
sufficient rank).

Is this desirable?  For PCs it doesn't matter much, indeed it can be a
helpful GM tool  -- e.g. once
an NPC got off a ship & when his reasonable facsimile "returned" that
afternoon he was 3 ranks
higher in assassin (made sure the party got a nudge in the right direction).

However, why bother with a secret police force when a namer, celestial,
whatever (even an earth mage
!),  could identify all the professional spies in town in a few hours.   I
agree that you can do
nothing about gifted amateurs like Isil Eth (but one never could anyway).
It's bizarre if, in
practice, the best people at using a skill would be those with no training
in it.

Either a successful spy MUST have an illusionist on tap [it's a loathsome
spell, by the way], or one
is forced to introduce other magics.  For instance, I *have* had
DA-scrambling magic; but it's been
high level stuff & clearly inappropriate for subtlety -- Hypothetical case:
partymember notices
suspicious "orange-seller" almost within earshot; Lashes her with a DA
("rank in Spy?"); gets answer
"woolly mammoth."

regards, Michael


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Whoops, yet again I've been surprised by the rewrite.  Normally the rewrites are a marked an
improvement, but in this case, I think matters have been made *worse.*

> Relatively little information can be divined regarding the non-magical
> learned abilities of an entity. It will be possible to learn what is the
> being's most intrinsic skill or ability, but lesser skills may not be
> sufficiently intrinsic so as to have made an impression on the being's
> aura".

But what is a being 's MOST intrinsic skill or ability?

I can see some GMs going for RANK, especially since it is an easy number to compare [Rank10 Chef has
prepared a dish to die for, with an ancillary skill (merely rank 7) should the dish prove
ineffective].

Other GMs may go for what is being practiced at THAT specific moment (since it is presumably most
relevant), which sounds good and is especially suited to DAing PCs who are multi-talented & who may
evolve over time -- but in effect gives multiple DA answers with time.  Alternatively

Those GMs with tables perhaps prefer net EP expenditure (a rank 9 assassin is trumped by Rk 7
healer).  And it still brings up the problem that the more discrete (& hence more effective) spy
will be someone who is relatively incompetent at the skill.  Although a lithe stunning Elf princess
(for example) pays so very little EP to be a Courtesan that, paradoxically, she'd never be
considered one according to EP expenditure.

Conversely, as we have all experienced, it is the *combinations* which truly contribute to a
characters effectiveness [a mundane master assassin has to be very good to out-perform a low-level
assassin who has spent 120K to be Rank-20 in Shadow-walking].
Indeed ranking a single weapon or a spell can outweigh the EP cost of one's profession (even to
master level).  The EP cost of being a mediocre namer (all spells say at Rank 6-10) outweighs any
Rank-10 profession.   And if one considers all the weapon ranking necessary [in EP, let alone time],
being a Rank-7 warrior surely outranks all other Rank-10 professions.


Furthermore one could argue isn't a character's moral state, fibre, or attitude more intrinsic than
learned abilities.  Does it matter whether an NPC court-attendant's "most intrinsic skill or
ability" is Courtier, Military scientist, philosopher, ... or is it more relevant that they're a
toadying weasel or a social lion.  Conversely a *minor* ability may outweigh a highly ranked
professional skill   e.g. if the resurrecting Healer's  "m.i.s.o.a." is Blackmail  or the Rank-9
astrologer views his awesome or terrifying ability to predict the future as merely a cash-cow job,
but being a Rank-5 seducer is his true avocation.

The usefulness of DA will vary even more markedly between adventures than before [some variance
can't be helped, or is desirable -- but let's not go to extremes]

regards, Michael


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At 08:55 30/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>Should skills, & rank in skills, show up on DA? -- I've always assumed so, 
>but I believe we've
>glossed over the implications.  The character has learnt the skill by 
>cashing in EP and it *is*
>intrinsic (You can't "navigate" a ship of certain length unless you have 
>sufficient rank).

I've regularly seen it played with the question usually being 
"highest-ranked skill, not language" or "rank in assassin", "rank in spy" etc.
Generally, this is the question asked when "college of magic" doesn't seem 
relevant.

>Is this desirable?  For PCs it doesn't matter much, indeed it can be a 
>helpful GM tool  -- e.g. once
>an NPC got off a ship & when his reasonable facsimile "returned" that 
>afternoon he was 3 ranks
>higher in assassin (made sure the party got a nudge in the right direction).

Clever trick that...

>However, why bother with a secret police force when a namer, celestial, 
>whatever (even an earth mage
>!),  could identify all the professional spies in town in a few hours.   I 
>agree that you can do
>nothing about gifted amateurs like Isil Eth (but one never could 
>anyway).  It's bizarre if, in
>practice, the best people at using a skill would be those with no training 
>in it.
>
>Either a successful spy MUST have an illusionist on tap [it's a loathsome 
>spell, by the way], or one
>is forced to introduce other magics.  For instance, I *have* had 
>DA-scrambling magic; but it's been
>high level stuff & clearly inappropriate for subtlety -- Hypothetical 
>case: partymember notices
>suspicious "orange-seller" almost within earshot; Lashes her with a DA 
>("rank in Spy?"); gets answer
>"woolly mammoth."

There is an alternative... we drop the titles "Spy" and Thief" from the 
skill headers in the process of amalgamating them into one "Investigative 
Skills" package. Then there would be no negative connotation to having rank 
in covert skills - all sorts of people use them from common pickpockets, to 
bounty hunters, to the Duke's own investigators.

Jacqui Smith


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> If you allow DA to reveal a skill (which I think most of us do), then you
> have to change how people react to this info. Otherwise there are fatal
> wards on every city entrance for Assassins & Spies (except those
> carrying an orange silk 'kerchief).

I have never allowed it. DA is a dirt cheap talent that can be ranked at
little cost to a rank that guarantee's success.

Why on earth would your aura reflect what you can do? In the case of Magic
the magic would presumably affect your Aura but that fact that you are a
carpenter shouldn't.

One of the best changes in recent times was the new DA which implicitly
stated you couldn't get skills.

Mandos
/s


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<html>
<head>
</head>
<body>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz">m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:200209300103.NAA07984@smtp.sig.net.nz">
  <pre wrap="">But what is a being 's MOST intrinsic skill or ability?<br><br>Conversely...</pre>
  </blockquote>
  <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:200209300103.NAA07984@smtp.sig.net.nz">
    <pre wrap="">Furthermore one could argue... <br><br>The usefulness of DA will vary even more markedly between adventures than before...</pre>
    </blockquote>
Hi Parky,<br>
    <br>
One writes and re-writes these things and gets reviews, and... &nbsp;[sigh] &nbsp;never
mind. :-) :-)<br>
    <br>
The intent of the re-write was not to introduce a major dillema for either
players or GMs, but rather to limit the effects of a 75 EM talent and ensure
that a Silverfoam-esque DA question such as "What is the being's second lowest
ranked non-adventuring skill that is not a weapon?" is met with a well deserved
"No answer". :-)<br>
    <br>
If the exact wording of the Aura section appears too limiting, or likely
to cause conflict/confusion/distress, then a minor re-word may be in order.
&nbsp;I'd suggest:<br>
    <br>
"It will be possible to learn what the<span class="moz-txt-citetags"></span>
 being's most intrinsic <b>skills</b> or <b>abilities are</b>, but..."<br>
    <br>
What think you?<br>
    <br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">martin.dickson@peace.com</a>
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401</pre>
    <br>
    </body>
    </html>


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mandos@iconz.net wrote:

>One of the best changes in recent times was the new DA which implicitly
>stated you couldn't get skills.
>
Technically, it explicity states that one cannot DA "lesser skills", but 
otherwise I completely agree with you -- especially the reason for 
stating the limitation.

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also affects
Wards :

"Specifics of the triggering mechanism must be something intrinsic to the
object or entity (similar to Detect Aura). Hence a Ward could be set up to
be triggered by a Rank 4 or higher assassin ..."

If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual is
being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.

=====================

DA should vary in usefulness between adventures. Some GMs (e.g. me) are
lazy, and leave clues for the party lying around in peoples' auras - other
take the trouble of setting up encounters and people to talk to. Sometimes I
want DA to be more useful than other times. Sometimes I like it to be useful
in only some areas - big on GTNs, low on magical ability details. Sometimes
DA is used annoyingly, and the player gets less information. And no one can
say "but I spent all my EP on this ability, and now its never useful", like
Mind & Illusion players have been known to claim, because its soooo cheap.
If I'm aware I'm being particularly weird, I'll talk to my Namer players -
earth mages & celestials never notice.

=====================

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Monday, 30 September 2002 2:31 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DA, was Spy skill revision


m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz wrote:

But what is a being 's MOST intrinsic skill or ability?Conversely...
Furthermore one could argue... The usefulness of DA will vary even more
markedly between adventures than before...
Hi Parky,

One writes and re-writes these things and gets reviews, and...  [sigh]
never mind. :-) :-)

The intent of the re-write was not to introduce a major dillema for either
players or GMs, but rather to limit the effects of a 75 EM talent and ensure
that a Silverfoam-esque DA question such as "What is the being's second
lowest ranked non-adventuring skill that is not a weapon?" is met with a
well deserved "No answer". :-)

If the exact wording of the Aura section appears too limiting, or likely to
cause conflict/confusion/distress, then a minor re-word may be in order.
I'd suggest:

"It will be possible to learn what the being's most intrinsic skills or
abilities are, but..."

What think you?

Cheers,
Martin


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AndrewW@datacom.co.nz wrote:

>If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual is
>being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.
>
[shrug] Only because the wording of Ward wasn't tweaked at the same 
time.  Wards could be more powerful than DA, although preventing Wards 
that work of Rk 4+ Assassin, but not Rk 3 is probably no big deal., and 
whilst some players certainly do use Wards, they are still more often 
used by GMs.

>Sometimes I want DA to be more useful than other times.
>
Me too.  DA can be a great way of giving the party info -- but as Parky 
noted if it's too powerful/accurate then it can blow a lot of options 
for subterfuge and mystery.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also affects
> Wards :
>
> "Specifics of the triggering mechanism must be something intrinsic to the
> object or entity (similar to Detect Aura). Hence a Ward could be set up to
> be triggered by a Rank 4 or higher assassin ..."
>
> If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual is
> being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.

To be honest (and this might be biased as I play a thief character) I
believe that wards shouldn't trigger on skills either and the ability to
store a spell in an area for an indefinate length of time is well worth
400EM and should indeed be higher if you can target skills.

In game if all it takes is a ward to detect a thief it takes the fun out of
playing one, the the point where I have located a way of sneaking through
wards for my character so as to ensure I can utilise the skills I have paid
many thousands of EP for.

I don't believe that Wards are depowered or limited at all.

Mandos
/s


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> Me too.  DA can be a great way of giving the party info -- but as Parky
> noted if it's too powerful/accurate then it can blow a lot of options
> for subterfuge and mystery.

If all else fails take their Namers away :-)

Mandos
(Who notes after removing both Namers from his current party that this was
done as part of the story and not as a deliberate attempt to depower DA :-)


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]

> 
> > Me too.  DA can be a great way of giving the party info -- 
> but as Parky
> > noted if it's too powerful/accurate then it can blow a lot 
> of options
> > for subterfuge and mystery.
> 
> If all else fails take their Namers away :-)
> 
> Mandos
> (Who notes after removing both Namers from his current party 
> that this was
> done as part of the story and not as a deliberate attempt to 
> depower DA :-)
> 
Na, all you have to do is not give them any rest for 3 hours straight, and
preferably not even 1!

Errol


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mandos@iconz.net wrote:

>(Who notes after removing both Namers from his current party that this was
>done as part of the story and not as a deliberate attempt to depower DA :-)
>
I recall a party, from long ago, whose DA arsenal consisted of 3 Earth 
Mages, 2 Celestials and a Namer -- who shall remain nameless... but 
whose name ryhmes with "FilverSoam".  :-)

Oh the DA's... those long wilderness nights just flew by. :-)

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> If the exact wording of the Aura section appears too limiting, or likely to cause
> conflict/confusion/distress, then a minor re-word may be in order.  I'd suggest:
>
> "It will be possible to learn what the being's most intrinsic skills or abilities are, but..."
>
> What think you?

Perhaps DA should be pruned back even further -- limiting it to just

0.  Predominant Aura level [automatic]
1.  GTN [automatic for namers]
2.  physical aproximates (vague age, approx PS, etc)
3.  magic IN EFFECT
4.  magic-related states (including quasi-magic such as existance of a pact)
5.  College (maybe).

Drop ALL skills, weapons, indead all learning except college [I'd even be willing that a targets
college, per se, would not be DA-able ... except I suspect that it would upset the game-balance too
much].

Likewise drop Plane of origin -- although the bare fact that a creature is susceptible to
banishment, or name of the specific counterspell which will banishment her, are valid "magic-related
states."


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]
<snip>
> 

> 
> So I guess I am more in favour of each skill having sub 
> skills which you
> choose as you advance through the ranks (like troubadour and 
> courtier).
> Perhaps they would have mandatory zero level skills based on 
> information
> (spy) and assets (theif).
> 
> This means you can choose the skillets to fit your character.
> 
> spy     information and burglary based
> thief    assets and burglary based
> 
Looking over the skills that people of suggested as useful to a spy, I
notice several that "almost fit but not quite" eg Courtier(Indimidation) is
designed to let you bully subordinates, but includes "a good general
grounding in methods of personal manipulation" - vital for spies who intend
to use others to get info for them (rather than getting their own hands
dirty). Philosophers have an understanding of how to organise information
for later access, also useful for many spies. Likewise pickpocket seems
similar to the fast moves that some spy utilise.

I'm quite keen on the idea of an entry-level basic skill-set (like
mechanician) that will help define a character, and some skills that can
only be learnt by high ranks.

Cheers
Errol


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> Perhaps DA should be pruned back even further -- limiting it to just
>
> 0.  Predominant Aura level [automatic]
> 1.  GTN [automatic for namers]
> 2.  physical aproximates (vague age, approx PS, etc)
> 3.  magic IN EFFECT
> 4.  magic-related states (including quasi-magic such as existance of a
pact)
> 5.  College (maybe).

To be honest with the addition to that list of highest rank spell etc, this
is how I tend to run DA.

Mandos
/s


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m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz wrote:

>Likewise drop Plane of origin -- although the bare fact that a creature is susceptible to
>banishment, or name of the specific counterspell which will banishment her, are valid "magic-related
>states."
>
"Plane of origin" as a DA question is usually a way for the GM to 
communicate to the players some necessary information -- namely "You're 
not in Kansas anymore"... or perhaps "You are in Kansas".

 I think this attribute of Auras is a keeper.

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> > Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also affects
> > Wards :
> >
> > "Specifics of the triggering mechanism must be something intrinsic to the
> > object or entity (similar to Detect Aura). Hence a Ward could be set up to
> > be triggered by a Rank 4 or higher assassin ..."
> >
> > If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual is
> > being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.

Yes let's fix up Ward.  e.g. [Quote]
"Once the Ward is cast, the entry or exit of any object or being in the area occupied by the Ward
(determined
by the range of the spell incorporated into the Ward) may trigger the Ward."

-- so I can set a ward to go off when, say, the magic statuette is removed from the area, and
hopefully catch at least one of the thieves ?  NO.  Later in the paragraph ...

"Once a ward has been triggered, it ceases to exist. It takes full effect on the entity(s) or
object(s) that triggered it, but is dissipated thereafter."
Therfore I can only target the statuette although, by leaving the area, it is no longer a target ???


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Andrew wrote-

The easiest cultural change is to behave like gentlemen. It is not illegal
to carry a lethal weapon (dress rapier) or to be capable of betraying a lord
(spies, also most petty nobles & palace servants). It is the deed, not the
potential that marks a criminal. This fits in with the treatment of
adventurers, who have the potential to destroy most towns they visit, yet
are assumed to be politic, if not polite.

--------------------------------------------------------

My thoughts on cultural impediments to nationwide scans of the citizenry and
wards on every gate.

One of the main things to remember is that all DQ characters (including the
PCs) cannot open the DQ rulebook to page xx and know unequivocly know all
there is about the DA talent. Or wards, or anything.

Most will know that mages can 'find out your secrets just by looking at you'
if they know anything at all. This is not an assumption that naturally leads
to a lot of trust in nobles. Fantasy worlds traditionally are not known for
embodying such nicities as 'rule of law'. Nobles rule and with patronage,
bribery and corruption rife you are back to just accusing your enemies of
everything you can get away with. Knowing is fine, proving is another.

Likewise with wards, 'a spell that lies in wait, like an assassin'. Unlike
real assassins these are invisible and silent to boot. Anyway, how do you
know that the whitefire ward against would be murderers has not been reset
against you? Mabye the Celestial (who are typically untrustworthy) has been
bought out by your brother?

And so the society polices itself although 'fell down the stairs and shot
attempting escape' is more appropiate. Thieves, spies, assassins, mind-mages
and binders can plot the downfall of civilisation in relative peace and
safety.


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can we also tidy all 'remotely triggered' devices, such as that silent
tongue or what ever that damned warning thingys is.

Nice dilemma on the range of ward, but one can always create a magic using
lower ranked sub-effects. So I assume one could set the range of 'movement
by the magical statue' to be less than the range of the effects of ward.

having written all that, the interpretation of the rules is what GMs are
for.
some variation is good - it is trying to limit the wide swings that
roundabout GMs employ. so we do not have to tie it down too tightly (maybe
some guidelines is all).

cheers, Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Monday, 30 September 2002 15:39
Subject: Re: [dq] DA, was Spy skill revision


> > > Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also
affects
> > > Wards :
> > >
> > > "Specifics of the triggering mechanism must be something intrinsic to
the
> > > object or entity (similar to Detect Aura). Hence a Ward could be set
up to
> > > be triggered by a Rank 4 or higher assassin ..."
> > >
> > > If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual
is
> > > being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.
>
> Yes let's fix up Ward.  e.g. [Quote]
> "Once the Ward is cast, the entry or exit of any object or being in the
area occupied by the Ward
> (determined
> by the range of the spell incorporated into the Ward) may trigger the
Ward."
>
> -- so I can set a ward to go off when, say, the magic statuette is removed
from the area, and
> hopefully catch at least one of the thieves ?  NO.  Later in the paragraph
...
>
> "Once a ward has been triggered, it ceases to exist. It takes full effect
on the entity(s) or
> object(s) that triggered it, but is dissipated thereafter."
> Therfore I can only target the statuette although, by leaving the area, it
is no longer a target ???
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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flamis@ihug.co.nz wrote:

>
> There is an alternative... we drop the titles "Spy" and Thief" from 
> the skill headers in the process of amalgamating them into one 
> "Investigative Skills" package. Then there would be no negative 
> connotation to having rank in covert skills - all sorts of people use 
> them from common pickpockets, to bounty hunters, to the Duke's own 
> investigators.
>
> Jacqui Smith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
When did the assumption appear that the skills were going to be merged?

Nothing ive read on this thread has decided one way or the other.

The main thought still  seems to be seperate skills with a little crossover.

Scott Whitaker


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> 
> flamis@ihug.co.nz wrote:
> 
> >
> > There is an alternative... we drop the titles "Spy" and Thief" from 
> > the skill headers in the process of amalgamating them into one 
> > "Investigative Skills" package. 

Scott Whitaker
> 
> When did the assumption appear that the skills were going to 
> be merged?
> 
> Nothing ive read on this thread has decided one way or the other.
> 
> The main thought still  seems to be seperate skills with a 
> little crossover.
> 
I read that entire sentence as a proposal.

Errol


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]

> can we also tidy all 'remotely triggered' devices, such as that silent
> tongue or what ever that damned warning thingys is.
> 
Bound Speech (by those B*****s) and Implanting Sounds (by those other
B*****s)

> Nice dilemma on the range of ward, but one can always create 
> a magic using
> lower ranked sub-effects. So I assume one could set the range 
> of 'movement
> by the magical statue' to be less than the range of the 
> effects of ward.
> 

I don't _think_ so
"...the entry or exit of any object
or being in the area occupied by the Ward (determined
by the range of the spell incorporated into the
Ward) may trigger the Ward. The area that the Ward
occupies and the range of the spell incorporated into
the Ward are identical."

Not that I have observed GMs taking much notice of the technicalities of the
Ward write-up anyway. Except if it is a PC doing it of course (it is
rumoured).

On the subject of Wards, am I correct in thinking that the last para of the
description (10.4) has not been changed since Expel Magic was made a Talent
with a comparative-rank-based chance of success? The implication in the
current 10.4 is that it is always successful. Perhaps "either by a Namer
utilising their Expel Magic talent, or..."?
And perhaps a note about counterspells being able to temporarily defuse per
'Use 3' of CSs.

> having written all that, the interpretation of the rules is 
> what GMs are
> for.
> some variation is good - it is trying to limit the wide swings that
> roundabout GMs employ. so we do not have to tie it down too 
> tightly (maybe
> some guidelines is all).

I agree

Errol

> ----- Original Message -----
> 
> > > > Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also
> affects
> > > > Wards :
> > > >


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<P> 
<P>&nbsp; <B><I>errolc@tranzlink.co.nz</I></B> wrote: 
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><BR><BR>&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]<BR><BR>&gt; can we also tidy all 'remotely triggered' devices, such as that silent<BR>&gt; tongue or what ever that damned warning thingys is.<BR>&gt; <BR>Bound Speech (by those B*****s) and Implanting Sounds (by those other<BR>B*****s)<BR><BR>&gt; Nice dilemma on the range of ward, but one can always create <BR>&gt; a magic using<BR>&gt; lower ranked sub-effects. So I assume one could set the range <BR>&gt; of 'movement<BR>&gt; by the magical statue' to be less than the range of the <BR>&gt; effects of ward.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>A ward triggering on the exit of someone from an area can't target them by what I read, But say the ward was on the entrance area to the vault, &amp; someone passed through the ward &amp; exited into the vault side without saying the password, Or somesuch, And the ward then triggers a wall spell sealing the vault as well as an alarm spell to summon guards to the area.....? They may be outside the area of effect, but the ward is still usefull</P>
<P>It admitadly isn't as usefull as if you could set the ward to trigger on the removal of a statue from it's niche, But could you set the ward to trigger on someone touching the statue possibly?</P><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p><br><hr size=1>
<a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/?http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mobile/sms/msgr/index.html" target=_blank><b>Yahoo! Messenger for SMS</b></a>
- Always be connected to your Messenger Friends

Michael,

The "exit" of an entity or object from a warded area tend to only be useful
for spells that have an area of effect (eg windstorm, agony).  (Note that
Blackfire can affect an area outside its range!).

Hence, it is usually the entry of an entity that triggers a ward.

Cheers,
	Brent.


At 15:39 30/09/02 +1200, m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz wrote:
>> > Just a reminder that a discussion of the limitations of DA also affects
>> > Wards :
>> >
>> > "Specifics of the triggering mechanism must be something intrinsic to the
>> > object or entity (similar to Detect Aura). Hence a Ward could be set
up to
>> > be triggered by a Rank 4 or higher assassin ..."
>> >
>> > If we are going to worry about EMs, a EM400 special knowledge ritual is
>> > being limited by the rebalancing of a EM75 talent.
>
>Yes let's fix up Ward.  e.g. [Quote]
>"Once the Ward is cast, the entry or exit of any object or being in the
area occupied by the Ward
>(determined
>by the range of the spell incorporated into the Ward) may trigger the Ward."
>
>-- so I can set a ward to go off when, say, the magic statuette is removed
from the area, and
>hopefully catch at least one of the thieves ?  NO.  Later in the paragraph
...
>
>"Once a ward has been triggered, it ceases to exist. It takes full effect
on the entity(s) or
>object(s) that triggered it, but is dissipated thereafter."
>Therfore I can only target the statuette although, by leaving the area, it
is no longer a target ???
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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At 18:26 30/09/02 +1200, you wrote:
>>There is an alternative... we drop the titles "Spy" and Thief" from the 
>>skill headers in the process of amalgamating them into one "Investigative 
>>Skills" package. Then there would be no negative connotation to having 
>>rank in covert skills - all sorts of people use them from common 
>>pickpockets, to bounty hunters, to the Duke's own investigators.
>When did the assumption appear that the skills were going to be merged?
>
>Nothing ive read on this thread has decided one way or the other.
>
>The main thought still  seems to be seperate skills with a little crossover.

I never said that, Scott... I was merely pointing out that amalgamation 
could led naturally to an alternative method of solving the perceived 
problem with a characters aura reflecting skills such as Spy and Thief.

For what its worth, I tend to think that a character's primary skill may be 
intrinsic to their aura - especially if it's quasi-magical or is something 
very important to the person they are. Thus, Bob the Farmer may well have 
Artisan:farmer in his aura, whereas Phil the Grain Merchant who's learned a 
bit about the grain farming trade so he can tell when the grain's good 
would not.

Jacqui Smith


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Actually, rereading the latest version on Auras – it is quite clear from the
first sentence onwards  “The strength and composition of the Aura reflects
the amount of life-force and magic that the entity or object possesses and
the other properties that are intrinsically part of their being.”

The paragraph “Information that may be gained from a living being ...” is
excellent EXCEPT for the last two sentences.  I’d suggest that it would be
easier to play and the concept of Aura would be more more self-consistent if
you change “Relatively little information” to “No information”, and drop the
last sentence entirely.   This would mean that information some [and only
some] GMs give would no longer be appropriate, but the use of the talent
would be clear -- and so many abuses would be avoided, e.g. DAing &
eliminating spies, assassins, ...

By the way, NO learned behaviour is intrinsic to a creature – it is entirely
extrinsic.  Yes “Artisan/farmer” is important to a farmer – but it is NOT
intrinsic to the human who is farming (even if that is his “self identity”
or if he would starve if he did not farm).  Fortunately the definition makes
learned magic important to the aura.

regards, Michael


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Sorry, I just realised not everyone has DQ manual online.  The suggested
modified (shorter, abuse-resistant, easier to play) paragraph would read as
below.  Regds, Michael.


Information that may be gained from a living being includes: its Generic
True Name, its plane of origin, approximately how far it is through its
life-span (e.g. juvenile, 50%, about 100 years old), its general state of
health (e.g. healthy, diseased, 1/2 Endurance), aptitude with a magical
ability (e.g. low overall, Rank of specific ability) and to which College of
magic (if any) it is attuned. These last two facts are discernible because
the skills that they represent have an affect on the level and type of magic
in the entity’s Aura. No information can be divined regarding the
non-magical learned abilities of an entity.


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--=====================_1033340171==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi there,

Thanks to everyone for their feedback on my earlier posting.  I've come up
with a proposal which of course will make eveybody happy, although it is
obviously still in its sketch design stage.  Find attached.  

I've developed a spy skill, spurning the idea of merging it with Thief.
However, I think there definitely is a need for some sort of "urban ranger"
skill, which I think should be an adventuring skill.  It would cover the
streetwise, scrounging, not getting lost, recognising urban landmarks,
where to find the church and markets, sort of things.  I think that that
sort of skill is too useful for most characters, that they shouldn't be
taking spy (or thief) skill to just get those abilities.  One should learn
spy to become an information gatherer.

The formulaic references in my document are just indicative of what stats I
think should be involved in the final number, and if someone actually
enjoys playing with numbers to get something that is appropriate and that
works, then by all means, do so.  

I wanted to have some reference to the other skills like courtier,
troubador, assasin, thief, that different spy types can be, in a similiar
way that ranger does with specialised fields, but it was all starting to
get too hard. I'm left with a vague notion of adding the rank of these
other appropriate skills into the base chances of a spy performing stuff
when operating in their chosen field, or using the higher rank of (spy & x).  

This is because spy is different from other skills in that it only works
well when a covering skill is also present.  All the other DQ skills work
in isolation, but I think some reference for this spy overlap is required.

The reason for including formulae with each sort of skill was to make it
possible to have the spy ability either work, fail, or catastrophic failure
that ends up with them being hung and quartered. Something like +40% over
base chance, to max of 90+rank%. 

Happy Reading,
Regards,
Sally

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\par \tab }{\i\lang1033 Sally Musgrave
\par }\pard \qj\sa120\keep\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\lang1033 
Amongst the many professionals encountered in everyday life, there will be a scattering of those with the covert skill of Spy.  There are basic information gathering and remembering abilities in common with
 all spies, but the methods of operation, and spheres of influence vary from the seductress to the military scout to the cat burglar.  A spy may specialise in a particular field of operation and if they have the appropriate accompanying skills, will perfo
rm better, with less chance of their actions being discovered and their cover blown.  }{\b\lang1033 
\par 46.2 Benefits
\par }{\lang1033 At Rank 0 all spies have a grounding in basic spycraft including
\par }{\b\lang1033 Stealthiness}{\lang1033 : 2% per rank
\par }{\b\lang1033 Observation skills}{\lang1033 : Extended senses, detect secret apertures & traps, }{\lang1033 recognise }{\lang1033 common }{\lang1033 scents}{\lang1033 
\par }{\b\lang1033 Enhanced Memory}{\lang1033 : photographic, phonographic, routines, remember scents
\par }{\b\lang1033 Assimilate guise}{\lang1033 : the ability to study and copy behaviors and professions, to maintain the role of the average/archetypal/generic.  This will pass common observ
ation, but observers have a chance of detecting the counterfeit equal to (AG + WP + Spy rank) - PC of observer
\par 
\par At each subsequent rank a spy chooses one of the following abilities to aid their spycraft.  Spend EP for more at rank 10, specialise by taking again etc as per Courtier.
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Befriending}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : }{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Used over a long period (weeks), to engender trust in others.  In the short term, g}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 ossip for information}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  to}{
\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  garner kernels of information whilst chatting in friendly manner.  Observer has chance of noticing being pumped for information.
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Bribing}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : recognise appropriate people & amounts to gain information/access (courtiers' beauracracy is applicable to courts only)
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Codes}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : use simple codes, attempt to break other's codes and ciphers.
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Disguise}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : apply makeup, dyes, false hair etc to alter appearance/race/gender 
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Forgery & seal breaking}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : MD + PC + Spy rank + language rank
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Hiding}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : finding and fitting into unlikely hiding places, Spy rank + PC + AG; and keeping still and quiet: WP + Spy rank + EN - PC of observer
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Learn language phrases}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : halve the time to learn new languages up to rank 3 
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Lip reading}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  : clear line of sight required, know language being spoken
\par *}{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Mimicry}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  - as per Troubador, copy accents
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Network (area)}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : join spy rings, details of making safe contacts/ info swapping, 
\par *}{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Pick Locks}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  - as per Thief
\par *}{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Simulate Emotions}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0  - as per courtier
\par }{\b\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 Sleight of hand}{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 : swapping objects, not quite Prestidigitation of Troubador, replicates quickness aspect of pick pockets
\par }{\lang1033 *}{\b\lang1033 Trap removal/disarming}{\lang1033 : - as per mechanician, hmm, I mean Thief
\par }{\b\lang1033 Troop assessment}{\lang1033  - perceive logistics of military organisations
\par }{\b\lang1033 Web Master}{\lang1033 : set up spy ring, }{\cf1\lang2057\cgrid0 where to place spies, how to store information for later reference\page * skill subsets taken directly from other skills, but appropriate for spies too.
\par 
\par Suggested abilities I've not included:
\par }{\lang1033 Torture & Intimidation: not covert enough for spies, befriending covers people manipulation skills 
\par Climbing: separate skill enough already
\par Acrobatics, Tightrope walking, Ventriloquism - keep it in the circus
\par Seduction - this is what Courtiers do
\par Streetwise, Scrounging : urban survival adventuring skill.  
\par General knowledge of the spy and assassin organisations in the local area.: not appropriate for the individual character based aspect of the game/campaign
\par Underworld contacts: finding fences etc should be included in a revamped Thief skill.
\par 
\par }}

<P> I think it looks fairly good as an initial draft from a quick glance.
<P>I do have to say with current numbers alot of the chances end up at about 40% In your average situation or less, But that can be played with for a bit I guess with whoevers looking over it more closely *looks around for volunteers so I don't get landed with that one*
<P>The Hiding, Well, Stealth really needs a clear writeup of exactly what stealth does &amp; doesn't do, Because some would say finding hiding spots fits into stealth allready at a guess, since the stealth writeup is slightly vauge, but a nice idea to work with though.
<P>&nbsp;
<P>Looks to seperate spy quite nicely into it's own skill &amp; hopefully will cut down on people having to take a whole pile of skills to get certian abilities like the simulate emotions for being a spy, I like it for now
<P>&nbsp;
<P>Bernard
<P>&nbsp;
<P>&nbsp; <B><I>salient@kcbbs.gen.nz</I></B> wrote: 
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Hi there,<BR><BR>Thanks to everyone for their feedback on my earlier posting. I've come up<BR>with a proposal which of course will make eveybody happy, although it is<BR>obviously still in its sketch design stage. Find attached. <BR><BR>I've developed a spy skill, spurning the idea of merging it with Thief.<BR>However, I think there definitely is a need for some sort of "urban ranger"<BR>skill, which I think should be an adventuring skill. It would cover the<BR>streetwise, scrounging, not getting lost, recognising urban landmarks,<BR>where to find the church and markets, sort of things. I think that that<BR>sort of skill is too useful for most characters, that they shouldn't be<BR>taking spy (or thief) skill to just get those abilities. One should learn<BR>spy to become an information gatherer.<BR><BR>The formulaic references in my document are just indicative of what stats I<BR>think should be involved in the final number, and if someone actually<BR>enjoys playing with numbers to get something that is appropriate and that<BR>works, then by all means, do so. <BR><BR>I wanted to have some reference to the other skills like courtier,<BR>troubador, assasin, thief, that different spy types can be, in a similiar<BR>way that ranger does with specialised fields, but it was all starting to<BR>get too hard. I'm left with a vague notion of adding the rank of these<BR>other appropriate skills into the base chances of a spy performing stuff<BR>when operating in their chosen field, or using the higher rank of (spy &amp; x). <BR><BR>This is because spy is different from other skills in that it only works<BR>well when a covering skill is also present. All the other DQ skills work<BR>in isolation, but I think some reference for this spy overlap is required.<BR><BR>The reason for including formulae with each sort of skill was to make it<BR>possible to have the spy ability either work, fail, or catastrophic failure<BR>that ends up with them being hung and quartered. Something like +40% over<BR>base chance, to max of 90+rank%. <BR><BR>Happy Reading,<BR>Regards,<BR>Sally &gt; ATTACHMENT part 2 application/rtf charset=us-ascii </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p><br><hr size=1>
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