File - New.

You must be mistaking the DQ Guild for a modern organisation with processes
and standards. Each rule amendment is hand-crafted by artisans out of
materials specifically chosen for the subtle shadings required for that work
- using a simple template to structure all such works of art leads to the
senseless "modernism" pervading our culture and dooming it to a consumerist
facsimile of still-life.

Hope that helps.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]

BTW, where can I get a word document with the right sort of format to use
as a template for the proposal?

Regards,
Sally


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<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">02/10/2002 07:50</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to dq</font>
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<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [dq] Spy from here [dq] Thief</font></table>
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<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">File - New.<br>
<br>
You must be mistaking the DQ Guild for a modern organisation with processes<br>
and standards. Each rule amendment is hand-crafted by artisans out of<br>
materials specifically chosen for the subtle shadings required for that work<br>
- using a simple template to structure all such works of art leads to the<br>
senseless &quot;modernism&quot; pervading our culture and dooming it to a consumerist<br>
facsimile of still-life.<br>
<br>
Hope that helps.<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]<br>
<br>
BTW, where can I get a word document with the right sort of format to use<br>
as a template for the proposal?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Sally<br>
<br>
<br>
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</font>
<br>
<br>

> ieeeeeeeeeee ! shock, stun and amazement.
>
> but societal sphere _is_ intrinsic. A peasant will have a smaller aura than
> a princess, and possibly even other nobles. (with subtle shading on the word
> 'will').

My dear IE, you have been seriously misled by whoever discussed the matter with you.  Pray do not
confuse the magical term "intrinsic" with anything relevant to the social sphere, or even reality
itself.

A stone wall has no aura but a lace curtain does -- that does not imply that a stone wall is less of
a barrier than a lace curtain or that stone walls & lace curtains cannot fulfil similar functions in
a civilised society.    Similarly a mundane sword has no aura but is probably a better weapon than a
pointed stick.

Speaking of which, an heretical philosopher once suggested a theoretical mechanism called
speciation: that if an isolated subgroup of a more common GTN bred solely within itself, the certain
persevering social & physical traits (and Fate) would ensure that the subgroup's descendents would
"evolve" into a new species -- that is, have a new GTN.  Thus undoubtedly any social group, say
princesses, will evolve to having GTN all of their own (how much more intrinsic can you get?),
provided of course that they only breed within their social group.


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Comments on the proposed Spy.

Learn language phrases: halve the time to learn new languages up to rank 3 
The ability is cute, but the benefit is primarily a gaming benefit. This
ability was removed from Bard because of a really good reason which escapes
me now. With languages already taking half the time to rank as other
weapons, getting them even quicker is wrong. Also, ranking in half-weeks is
not good. We have no other skill that reduces ranking time, and time is one
of the few remaining game balances not hacked into little pieces. Rewrite to
different mechanism.

Troop assessment - perceive logistics of military organisations
This is what Military Scientist "Logistics" speciality is for. This removes
another reason for people not to always get skirmish as their first Mil Sci
speciality at rank 0. Remove.

Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture. "Not covert
enough for spies" - huh. Ditto Intimidation / Resist Intimidation. How do
you think they *really* get information from people? For Assassins, torture
is a hobby; for Spies, a tool of the trade.

The notion of an Urban Ranger or Urban survival skill fills me with dread.
Don't know why. I'd rather that Spy (and Thief) had an ability along the
lines of:
Underworld Citizen
This skill helps characters locate and recognize fences, black marketers,
slavers, hit men, thieves, forgers and most other denizens of the
underworld. Characters in a familiar city gain high bonuses or do not need
to roll at all.


Andrew


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: AndrewW@datacom.co.nz [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2002 10:20 a.m.
> 
> Troop assessment - perceive logistics of military organisations
> This is what Military Scientist "Logistics" speciality is 
> for. This removes
> another reason for people not to always get skirmish as their 
> first Mil Sci
> speciality at rank 0. Remove.
> 

Having some way of telling a halberd from a glaive (I don't know if that is
a good example), and having a decent guess at the experience level of troops
without being a warrior or mil sci doesn't seem unreasonable. Could a
'Knowledge' of the military let you report more usefully than "50 scruffy
blokes with long pointy things."? Those that serve for any length of time
past 'scared conscript' level tend to pick it up. Just a thought.


> Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture. 
> "Not covert
> enough for spies" - huh. Ditto Intimidation / Resist 
> Intimidation. How do
> you think they *really* get information from people? For 
> Assassins, torture
> is a hobby; for Spies, a tool of the trade.

Hmmm, I find myself <FX stroke chin> agreeing.

I suggest that the proposal include more rather than less sub-skills (in
full, not just 'same as xxx"') to make it easier to weigh them up - simpler
to cross them out than look them up in the rulebook.

BTW, looking at Assassin, the skill doesn't say that they can handle
poisons, it is only said in Combat (3.13) - not that I think they are likely
to forget.....

> 
> The notion of an Urban Ranger or Urban survival skill fills 
> me with dread.
> Don't know why. I'd rather that Spy (and Thief) had an 
> ability along the
> lines of:
> Underworld Citizen
> This skill helps characters locate and recognize fences, 
> black marketers,
> slavers, hit men, thieves, forgers and most other denizens of the
> underworld. Characters in a familiar city gain high bonuses 
> or do not need
> to roll at all.
> 
Societies significantly different from those the PC has experience with
would have penalties as well.

Also from the outline
>Bribing: recognise appropriate people & amounts to gain information/access 
>(courtiers' beauracracy is applicable to courts only)

Beauracracy would be a considerable bonus in the right situation, however,
as would other skills.  Perhaps two base chances, one for target selection,
another for working out the right bribe (cash, item, or service).

Beauracracy gives "an understanding of organisations and
hierarchies". You could argue that the intro to courtier limits it to high
society, but carousing , for instance, explicitly includes "all classes".


>Befriending

Note that Seduction
"may also be used to create a sense of friendship
and trust, even with a being not sexually compatible
with the seducer."

This only works on those of refined manners, presumably?

Cheers
Errol


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At 10:19 2/10/02 +1200, Andrew wrote:
>Comments on the proposed Spy.
>
>Learn language phrases: Rewrite to
>different mechanism.
Half ep cost, which does not stack with philosopher skill ep bonuses.

>Troop assessment - perceive logistics of military organisations
>This is what Military Scientist "Logistics" speciality is for. 

The mil sci skill gives knowledge of how to _organise_ such logistics
stuff, and perceive tactics gives tactics of how enemey is operating.  I
wanted a skill that is used to _assess_ foe, to determine size and
capabilities, not what their tactics might be, or how much food they have.
e.g. The spy sees half a dozen camp fires, and can assess that as thirty
soldiers and thus three commanders, or whatever.  Perhaps Logistics was a
confusing word to use.

>Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture. 
Actually, I think torture is a classic ability of torturers.  Spies are
classicly background operaters, who don't want to be found out as being
spies.  Certainly resist torture is a valid skill, but dishing it out is
not.  If a spy wants to be a torturer as well, they need to learn assassin
too. I don't think torture is a fun part of DQ roleplaying that we need to
make mainstream in such a readily available skill.  That may be too PC for
many, but that's my opinion.

>Intimidation / Resist Intimidation. How do
>you think they *really* get information from people? 
Befriending them - learn people manipulation skills to get people to tell
you stuff without really realising what it is they have said.  Certainly
many people who become spies have abilities of intimidation, and I think
that intimidation is a natural ability of the character, that they can use
at their whim.  I don't think it is something that needs to be taught at
spy school.  Indeed there is every effort to stop potential spies from
being overtly intimidating, because that blows their cover.  (If it becomes
a spy skill, and one doesn't have that on the charcter sheet, does that
mean that they can't use it?)

I think Spy is a secret skill.  If characters want to be a non-secret spy,
then they learn other skills to complement it.

>
>The notion of an Urban Ranger or Urban survival skill fills me with dread.
>Don't know why. I'd rather that Spy (and Thief) had an ability along the
>lines of:
>Underworld Citizen
>This skill helps characters locate and recognize fences, black marketers,
>slavers, hit men, thieves, forgers and most other denizens of the
>underworld. Characters in a familiar city gain high bonuses or do not need
>to roll at all.

As I said, I see this in Thief, not a spy.  Many spies may well be thiefs
just to get this skill, but many already are, and get the ep discount to
learn it too I suppose.  

Regards,
Sally


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Apart from having a difference of opinion from Sally on the points that I
raised & she cogently replied to, I have a real problem with the scope of
the spy skill she is proposing.

Spies cover a wider range than just watching & charming. Torture, Blackmail
& Intimidation are standards of spying. If a character doesn't want to use
them, fine. Other spies may never want to seduce the enemy, pick a lock or
do trap stuff. They are still a common part of the spy concept. Torture fits
Spy better than it does Assassin or any other skill.

Spies are not politically correct. Courtesans - oops I mean Courtiers - are
PC.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]

>Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture. 
Actually, I think torture is a classic ability of torturers.  Spies are
classicly background operaters, who don't want to be found out as being
spies.

>Intimidation / Resist Intimidation. How do
>you think they *really* get information from people? 
Befriending them - learn people manipulation skills to get people to tell
you stuff without really realising what it is they have said.  r.

I think Spy is a secret skill.  If characters want to be a non-secret spy,
then they learn other skills to complement it.


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> >Troop assessment - perceive logistics of military organisations
> >This is what Military Scientist "Logistics" speciality is for.

Military estimates?  (" Estimation of quantity" was a key skill in SunTzu).  I quite agree with
Sally's suggestion & the logic behind it.   Estimating the strength of a force is certainly a _lot_
easier that the command of logistics necessary to mobilize that force -- not to mention cheaper &
faster).   Of course a skilled general will aim to deceive enemy scouts.   Actually Hagan *is* a
Rank-2 MilSci with logistics (or the Art of Party-throwing as he likes to consider it)

One great advantage of reworking the skill is that if you're a spy you can top-out at medium
evel  -- assuming that you took the skill for the the spy-like memorisation etc (if you took the
skill to pick locks, then you're a thief-spy).

I do like the "befriending" and the stance it takes -- which is not what most courtiers do (to judge
by "Ridicule", for example).  Instead, a sucessful courtier will rely on the full spectrum of:

1. judicious toadying or arse-kissing
2. courtly flattery (which nobody believes, but which makes good press)
3. engendering a common interest (2 courtiers, even of different ranks) will
4. being in favour with the ruler (seldom does one cross the King's current favourites)
5. implied revenge (a.k.a. "never do a man a slight injury")
6. intimidation (it's not polite, but effective as long as you have the power)
7. blackmail (ditto -- plus it can backfire).

NONE of these techniques is subtle -- except perhaps implied revenge, which is implicit in most
courtier dealings.


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