> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> AndrewW@datacom.co.nz
> Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2002 4:35 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design
>
>
> Apart from having a difference of opinion from Sally on the points that I
> raised & she cogently replied to, I have a real problem with the scope of
> the spy skill she is proposing.
>
> Spies cover a wider range than just watching & charming. Torture,
> Blackmail
> & Intimidation are standards of spying. If a character doesn't want to use
> them, fine. Other spies may never want to seduce the enemy, pick a lock or
> do trap stuff. They are still a common part of the spy concept.
> Torture fits
> Spy better than it does Assassin or any other skill.
>
> Spies are not politically correct. Courtesans - oops I mean
> Courtiers - are PC.

I cannot see how it can do anything but help the skill and the characters
using it, if we add a wide range of options.

Mandos
/s


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----- Original Message -----
From: <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, 2 October 2002 10:19
Subject: Re: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design


> Comments on the proposed Spy.
>
> Learn language phrases: halve the time to learn new languages up to rank 3
> The ability is cute, but the benefit is primarily a gaming benefit. This
> ability was removed from Bard because of a really good reason which
escapes
> me now. With languages already taking half the time to rank as other
> weapons, getting them even quicker is wrong. Also, ranking in half-weeks
is
> not good.

I agree - it is an unnecessary weirdness - things to be minimised.
At most it will reduce the cost to get to Rank 3 by 3 weeks plus half the
time to get to Rank 0.
I do not feel the benefit is worth the added variation in the rules.


> Troop assessment - perceive logistics of military organisations
> This is what Military Scientist "Logistics" speciality is for. This
removes
> another reason for people not to always get skirmish as their first Mil
Sci
> speciality at rank 0. Remove.
>

I don't know. Maybe MilSci would provide more clues on the combat
effectiveness of the troops. I think Spy is good for collecting lots of raw
information, but that other skills are needed to get the point.

I think Spy should have a chance of getting the *most relevant* information
(assisted by obvious skill/knowledges).


> Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture. "Not covert
> enough for spies" - huh. Ditto Intimidation / Resist Intimidation. How do
> you think they *really* get information from people? For Assassins,
torture
> is a hobby; for Spies, a tool of the trade.
>

If we use the KGB as the Rank 15 example of Spy, they teach mostly
blackmail, intimidation and seduction. They rarely use torture externally.
Blackmail must include intimidation and use of threats. I would guess that
threat of pain is a useful blackmail.

Perhaps the difference here is that governments are more willing to use
torture on their own subjects, than on the subject of a foreign power.

therefore torture should be an optional skill - for internal informers etc.


> The notion of an Urban Ranger or Urban survival skill fills me with dread.
> Don't know why. I'd rather that Spy (and Thief) had an ability along the
> lines of:
> Underworld Citizen
> This skill helps characters locate and recognize fences, black marketers,
> slavers, hit men, thieves, forgers and most other denizens of the
> underworld. Characters in a familiar city gain high bonuses or do not need
> to roll at all.
>

I would prefer a Knowledge to a specific Spy skill.

The urban ranger equivalent of spot ambush sites etc is quite relevant
though.


Keep up the smiles Sally,

Ian


>
> Andrew
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I agree with Ross.

A lot of interpretation is based on the current wording.

That will change if the words are changed.

And I am not sure that I wish people to learn the game from reading the rule
book. I would prefer people to learn the rules by playing the game.

there is a lot more to the game than the written rules, there is an entire
ethos (some may say pathos) as well. I do not want another generation of
rules-lawyers and number-crunchers.

cheers, Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: <ross.alexander@uk.neceur.com>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 20:25
Subject: Re: [dq] The rulebook (was DA: Modified paragraph)


>
> Keith,
>
> The rulebook is a *rules* book, not an introduction to the game or
> the system.  It is written the way it is to keep it from getting too large
> or verbose.  If somebody wants to write a document explaining
> the system or the world then fine.  If anybody has such a document
> and wants it prepended to the existing rules then also fine, but
> tinkering with the language/layout of the current rules is asking for
> a lot of work with little real gain.
>
> Boo hoo hoo,
>
> Ross
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
> Ross Alexander                           "We demand clearly defined
> MIS - NEC Europe Limited            boundaries of uncertainty and
> Work ph: +44 20 8752 3394         doubt."
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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> Spies are not politically correct. Courtesans - oops I mean Courtiers -
are PC.

Because Coutiers - oops, I mean Courtiers - define Political Correctness.

Ian

>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]
>
> >Torture is a classic spy ability, along with resist torture.
> Actually, I think torture is a classic ability of torturers.  Spies are
> classicly background operaters, who don't want to be found out as being
> spies.
>
> >Intimidation / Resist Intimidation. How do
> >you think they *really* get information from people?
> Befriending them - learn people manipulation skills to get people to tell
> you stuff without really realising what it is they have said.  r.
>
> I think Spy is a secret skill.  If characters want to be a non-secret spy,
> then they learn other skills to complement it.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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mandos@iconz.net wrote:

>I cannot see how it can do anything but help the skill and the characters
>using it, if we add a wide range of options.
>
There are sensible (I hope) reasons for not having significant overlap 
between skills.  I would prefer that a PC learn a number of skills and 
combine them to gain a "professional" ability, rather than have us try 
to incorporate all applicable abilities under a single skill heading.

Yes, there will be Spies who snoop around foreign or domestic courts, 
toadying, seducing, and charming the locals with their knowledge of the 
correct fork.  These PCs should learn Spy and Courtier.

There will be Spies who scale walls to break into locked rooms and 
vaults and memorize, or copy, or steal documents.  These PCs should 
learn Spy and Thief.

The military Spy who needs to trek through the wilds to spy on enemy 
encampments will probably need Ranger, and may need Mil Sci if they are 
to percieve tactics. (I do like the idea that Spies are good at troop 
estimation -- something distinct from commanding troops).

The idea (IMHO) is to figure out which sub-skills are not already 
adequately covered by extant DQ Skills and to use these as the basis for 
Spy.  If there are some abilities that fit much better in Spy than their 
current position then we should consider duplicating or moving them. 
 But if they fit well in their current location then the PC should gain 
some ranks in that skills to access those abilities.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> > Spies are not politically correct. Courtesans - oops I mean 
> Courtiers -
> are PC.
> 
> Because Coutiers - oops, I mean Courtiers - define Political 
> Correctness.
> 
> Ian
> 

Do we need a movie/education session?

Ridicule + Gosford Park + The Third Man? :-)


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 9:03 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design
> 
> 
> mandos@iconz.net wrote:
> 
> >I cannot see how it can do anything but help the skill and 
> the characters
> >using it, if we add a wide range of options.
> >
> There are sensible (I hope) reasons for not having 
> significant overlap 
> between skills.  

I agree that too much overlap is not a good idea. However I think we need
some. For instance, the courtier-type may want the option to pick the lock
of the fop's safe while he is sleeping it off.

Note that Spy is 2-3 times as expensive as Courtier. However, Spy (as
proposed), has base skills plus options, while courtier just has options.
Thief is more expensive (around 1.5x), so maybe their pick lock ability is
more effective? The scope of the sub-skills should attempt to take this into
account.

Starting to get ugly, isn't it? This is an argument for less overlap.

[Statement of interest: I have a (in order of competence)
Courtier-Spy-Courtier. I'd probably want to drop some courtier rank to get
some EP to spend on presumably-more-expensive-now Spy]

Cheers
Errol


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errolc@tranzlink.co.nz wrote:

>I agree that too much overlap is not a good idea. However I think we need
>some. For instance, the courtier-type may want the option to pick the lock
>of the fop's safe while he is sleeping it off.
>
But that's not an argument for overlap, is it?

If the "courtier-type" wants to pick locks or crack safes then the PC 
needs to learn some ranks in Thief.

IMHO, DQ skills work best when they define a fairly tight-knit package 
of effects without attempting to match directly to every possible 
application of this effects.

Sally has stated that the current Spy skill does not cover the skill 
requirements for a spy character and proposed a new skill.  There are 
lots of good things in the proposed skill (disguise, forgery, hiding, 
military assessment).  Others have come out of discussion and should be 
included in the next version (Resist Torture).

The sub-skills that I do not agree with are those that are directly 
lifted from Thief (lock picking, and trap removal).  I would also 
suggest that the Spy version of Mimicry be re-written for Spy skill 
rather than lifted from Troubadour -- the Troub ability is to make 
winter nights fly by pretending to be a turkey-hawk, or parodying the 
speech and impediment of the Duke of Dimdell, the Spy version is to 
imitate accents (usually) to pass as an uninteresting native.

Sleight of Hand could be included in a more general Fieldcraft sub-skill 
-- which would cover handing off messages, the use of dead-drops and the 
like.  I suggest that this should be a Rk 0 skill (perhaps instead of 
Assimilate Guise -- many spies can do their job while still being 
foreign merchants, or whatever, without attempting to pass as native).

The one exception I'm happy with to the general no-overlap rule is 
Simulate Emotions -- I think that's just too intrinsic to Spies to leave 
out.

Anyhoo... my 0.5 cents worth (inflation adjusted).

Cheers,
Martin

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Much as I dislike "Me too" emails, I totally agree with Martin's lastest [12:36] posting.
Concening other postings ....

> ... With languages already taking half the time to rank as other
> weapons, getting them even quicker is wrong. Also, ranking in half-weeks
> is not good.

Actually I like the "pick-up phrases" skill.  I think something like this is good.  And upto Rank 3
is an excellent target rank to choose (because low levels are deliberately ineffectual).  Although
it may be that the time bonus is not appropriate mechanism.

Actually we do have other skills that rank in half weeks for certain conditions (e.g. Artisan
skills -- provided that you fill the prerequisites). Elsewhere is is clear that you round-up
lefteover half weeks, so that in practice it may not amount to much.

From	Standard    Suggested spy
nil to 3	7                 4
nil to 2	4                 2
nil to 1	2                 1
nil to 0	1                 1
0 to 3	6                 3
0 to 2	3                 2
0 to 1	1                 1
1 to 3	5                 3
1 to 2	2                 1
2 to 3	3                 2

Might I say that I like the proposed subskill -- it is appropriate, optional, and balanced.
However, here is a possible alternative for those who don't.

LANGUAGE SKILLS: Because spies have a good memory, aural skills, and are socially perceptive, they
may develope their language skills -- especially if other people are doing most of the talking.  For
any spoken language that a spy has ranked to rank 4 or less, they may function as if one rank
higher.

ILLUSTRATION OF WHAT I MEAN:  That is the spy can get the gist out of what is said -- even if they
don't know all the words. With trained sensitivity (& their blending-in skills) they can use their
limited vocabulary to its best.  For instance the spy distinguishes between  "No!"  "No?" "No ...!"
"Oh no!" "No really?"  "No. Really"  "Never."  and uses them all well.
Whereas the non-spy requires more literal or formal structures to convey the meaning, e.g. "Is it
that what you have said is true?"


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Sorry,  on my lists of the 7 levels of courtier persuasion I cut & pasted incorrectly.  For

> 3. engendering a common interest (2 courtiers, even of different ranks) will.

read:

3. engendering a common interest (2 courtiers, even of different ranks will do each other favours or
temporarily combine together for their mutual benefit -- especially if it is to the detriment of
other parties).

Also, by the implicitness of "5. implied revenge"  I mean that it is often easier to placate somone
than risk them being pissed off at you, especially when they are know to have a waspish tongue, or
are vindictive, or otherwise just looking for a reason to make someone else suffer instead of them.
Hey! Being a courtier takes long hours, a ready wit, & hard work -- you get your laughs where you
can.


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I still fail to see the need for this weirdness, just for the sake of 4
weeks. Political blindness?

I would be happy for Spies to use their trained memory to remember perfectly
phrases and inflections beyond their rank in a language. But not to
understand it.

Use of a good memory to pose as another trade is one thing, but I do not
like the Language bit causing a precendent that may lead some to suggest
that Good Memory justifies the ability to emulate just about any other skill
<shudder>.

I do like the separation of Spy 'estimate forces'  with MilSci 'perceive the
tactics they are training in'.

"I saw eight groups, each of about 50 pikemen. They were standing around,
raising and lowering their pikes. I also saw about 70 men at arms waving a
sword about and hitting straw men."

If the Spy is also a MilSci, then they will recognise these for the tactics
they represent.

If the Spy recalls what they saw to a MilSci, then they will perceive its
worth and organise which block the cavalry will charge, and which block
needs to be shattered by magic.

Anyhoo, I vote for least overlap.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, 3 October 2002 14:53
Subject: Re: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design


> Much as I dislike "Me too" emails, I totally agree with Martin's lastest
[12:36] posting.
> Concening other postings ....
>
> > ... With languages already taking half the time to rank as other
> > weapons, getting them even quicker is wrong. Also, ranking in half-weeks
> > is not good.
>
> Actually I like the "pick-up phrases" skill.  I think something like this
is good.  And upto Rank 3
> is an excellent target rank to choose (because low levels are deliberately
ineffectual).  Although
> it may be that the time bonus is not appropriate mechanism.
>
> Actually we do have other skills that rank in half weeks for certain
conditions (e.g. Artisan
> skills -- provided that you fill the prerequisites). Elsewhere is is clear
that you round-up
> lefteover half weeks, so that in practice it may not amount to much.
>
> From Standard    Suggested spy
> nil to 3 7                 4
> nil to 2 4                 2
> nil to 1 2                 1
> nil to 0 1                 1
> 0 to 3 6                 3
> 0 to 2 3                 2
> 0 to 1 1                 1
> 1 to 3 5                 3
> 1 to 2 2                 1
> 2 to 3 3                 2
>
> Might I say that I like the proposed subskill -- it is appropriate,
optional, and balanced.
> However, here is a possible alternative for those who don't.
>
> LANGUAGE SKILLS: Because spies have a good memory, aural skills, and are
socially perceptive, they
> may develope their language skills -- especially if other people are doing
most of the talking.  For
> any spoken language that a spy has ranked to rank 4 or less, they may
function as if one rank
> higher.
>
> ILLUSTRATION OF WHAT I MEAN:  That is the spy can get the gist out of what
is said -- even if they
> don't know all the words. With trained sensitivity (& their blending-in
skills) they can use their
> limited vocabulary to its best.  For instance the spy distinguishes
between  "No!"  "No?" "No ...!"
> "Oh no!" "No really?"  "No. Really"  "Never."  and uses them all well.
> Whereas the non-spy requires more literal or formal structures to convey
the meaning, e.g. "Is it
> that what you have said is true?"
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Brilliant start Sally.

I am not sure that Stealthiness is needed in Spy - except for historic
reasons. I like it, I just am not sure if it should be a basic. After all,
all Ambassadors are spies. Just not covert ones. and there is an Adventuring
skill of the same name. May be a Rank skillet of different name?

Enhanced Memory: I am sure that all trades would increase their ability to
remember remarkable aspects of their trade (a swordsman would remember a
remarkable sword - a princess would a truly excellent wine (nah - they are
far too common in those circles)). Can this be generalised across all
skills?

I would like the basic skillets to include Assess Information. Start low,
but always increases with rank. Can also be chosen as a Rank skillet and can
be specialised.

I would like the idea of a sub-skill called Manipulation to be discussed. It
suggests to me that the Spy is able to get people to do all sorts of things.
It would replace Intimidation and Seduction (they are means to an end,
enjoyable but every jobs should have its perks).

Also, Identify Appropriate Targets. split this off Bribing, and use as a
bonus to other sub-skills. Should probably be a Rank 0 Basic skillet.

Befriending should definitely stay, and would reduce the chance or scale of
retaliation if the target notices that they are being manipulated into doing
something they normally wouldn't do.

Bribing is different to manipulation and should stay.

Disguise - change to: _convincingly_ alter appearance and _voice_.
Appearance should include race and gender and accent (perhaps specialising
in this would activate one of either race or gender)

Hiding: Brilliant idea.

Learn language phrases - as per other email - change to ability to remember
heard phrases beyond level of comprehension. (this would include technical
jargon).

Mimicry - Drop - include in Disguise\Voice

Pick Locks - Drop, Manipulate another into giving you the key !

Simulate Emotions - Drop, add to Disguise perhaps with specialisation?

Sleight of Hand - keep

Trap removal - Keep - I hate traps.

Troop Assessment - this is only an example of a specialisation amongst the
many things that could be observed. (Trade goods, nobles, amount of trade,
military,fortifications, feasts, religions, Spies etc). Change to a skillet
enabling the Spy to specialise in their area of expertise. It would add to
their basic Observation skillet

Add: Assess information: the blind ability to pull information together into
a cogent whole.

I have suggested that you Drop quite a few, so we would need to come up with
replacement options.

One overall request, Please remove the comparative skill and Attribute Ranks
(EG Hiding) Please change to only requiring the Spy's attributes and ranks.
I could argue that once a hiding place is found, perception is not needed.
But, the Spy's ability to hide precludes people being drawn to look where
they are. Same for Assimilate Guise.


Don't know if that helps,


Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <salient@kcbbs.gen.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Monday, 30 September 2002 22:56
Subject: [dq] Proposed Spy Revision - sketch design


> Hi there,
>
> Thanks to everyone for their feedback on my earlier posting.  I've come up
> with a proposal which of course will make eveybody happy, although it is
> obviously still in its sketch design stage.  Find attached.
>
> I've developed a spy skill, spurning the idea of merging it with Thief.
> However, I think there definitely is a need for some sort of "urban
ranger"
> skill, which I think should be an adventuring skill.  It would cover the
> streetwise, scrounging, not getting lost, recognising urban landmarks,
> where to find the church and markets, sort of things.  I think that that
> sort of skill is too useful for most characters, that they shouldn't be
> taking spy (or thief) skill to just get those abilities.  One should learn
> spy to become an information gatherer.
>
> The formulaic references in my document are just indicative of what stats
I
> think should be involved in the final number, and if someone actually
> enjoys playing with numbers to get something that is appropriate and that
> works, then by all means, do so.
>
> I wanted to have some reference to the other skills like courtier,
> troubador, assasin, thief, that different spy types can be, in a similiar
> way that ranger does with specialised fields, but it was all starting to
> get too hard. I'm left with a vague notion of adding the rank of these
> other appropriate skills into the base chances of a spy performing stuff
> when operating in their chosen field, or using the higher rank of (spy &
x).
>
> This is because spy is different from other skills in that it only works
> well when a covering skill is also present.  All the other DQ skills work
> in isolation, but I think some reference for this spy overlap is required.
>
> The reason for including formulae with each sort of skill was to make it
> possible to have the spy ability either work, fail, or catastrophic
failure
> that ends up with them being hung and quartered. Something like +40% over
> base chance, to max of 90+rank%.
>
> Happy Reading,
> Regards,
> Sally


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