part of the idea behind clustering was to limit it to subskills that a spy
would have. SPies do not necessarily steal anything. Nor need they break and
enter, the better spies get a servant to deliver them for copying etc. If
you want to B&E, then you can learn thief - whether you steal documents or
jewels, you are a thief. If you want another to do something relevant, then
be a spy.

Whether or not we cluster, there are several subskills that only spy should
have.

On the clustering, leaving aside specialisation, the clusters hold fairly
similar skills so the GM only has to know which clusters a Spy has, not the
absolute ranks.
Keeping note of specialisation, and hence success chances of individual
subskills is a job for the charactersheet. I thought that by suggesting
specialisation be optional, then it would be up to the Player and GM if they
wanted the added depth. If Spy is a core part of the   (N)PC, then go for
it. If not then don't.

BTW - I do not expect a GM to remember every subskill Isil Eth has. Or even
every rank of her skills or spells. They should be able to tell that she is
highly ranked in Courtier and some mind spells. I do not expect courtier to
operate passively, unless I have put in a lot of effort so that everyone
remembers that it is happening.

I am not sure where my logic is going wrong. I think we can loose a lot if
we assume the GM is going to do the player's work for them. It is up to the
player to breath life into the charactersheet. It is not the role of the
rules to do so. Even my complex version of Spy is nowhere near as complex as
Mind (thank goodness), so I think we can dispense with worrying about
overloading GMs. They will time share their resources and rely on the
Players being good. Won't they?

cheers,
Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: <helen@owbn.net.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, 15 October 2002 04:59
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy - Theif, Courtier etc


> so could someone help me understand why
> > > everyone wants
> > > to leave out Thief & Assassin overlap and put in lots of Courtier
> overlap?
> > > Thief & Spy have historically (DQ rules-wise) been a lot closer than
> > > Courtier & Spy.
>
> Thieves steal property
> Spies steal information
> Thus the traditional Theif /spy overlap.
>
> IMHO the spy/courtier overlap arises because there have been Too few uses
of
> PC spies to B&E into merchant or naval ship yards, guard houses or other
> such places were valuable information is kept, to steal or copy/memorise
> documents.
> And far more use of PC Spies to gather information from sailors,
guardsmen,
> courtiers in social interaction, ie using the courtier skill.
> Thus current thinking of many on the skills needed for spy has a strong
lean
> towards the spy/courtier overlap needed for an embasidor or social spy
> rather than the military scout or corporate espianage type spy, who would
> need b&e skills, as well as camoflage/disguise type skills to successful
> observe a target, ie obsevring military camps, fleets outfitting for
> voyages, merchant wagon trains.
>
> TO ADD MY THOUGHTS
>
> What sub skills do spies really need, seperate from theif, courtier or
> troubadour (milsci & merchant) ?Nothing really.
>
> Under the current rules, if you have both theif and spy you get to use the
> best BC  but otherwise, everything in the current spy is in theif, its
just
> theives do it better than spies of equal rank.
>
> WHAT IF instead of a Spy skill with sub skills, we just have a spy skill
> that adds to the rank or BC as apropriate of the theif, courtier and
> troubabour etc skill?
>
> This way you will have bonuses from ranks in spy improve a B& E
specialists
> rank in theif to give a better BC, or an embasidorial type spies ability
> choices in courtier, simular to chosing to specialise.
> Keep the photographic memory and stealth bonus, and make the using of
Theif
> abilities (or any other enhanceable skill) with out rank 0 in the skill,
> 1/2 (BC at Rk0) + spy bonus. All theory, no or very little practice.
>
> Example lock pick - theif  (2x MD + 6x Rk) - (6x lock Rk) thus Spy no
theif
> becomes (MD + bonus)-(6x lock Rk) very simular to current spy of (MD + 4x
> Rk)-(6x lock Rk)
>
> Thus low characters with few skill, or a high rank social spy trying some
> B&E out side their normal specialisation would still have some chance of
> sucess.
> The advantange to having spy over the skills alone, is spy will improve
more
> than one skill for your ep. plus the memory and stealth bonus.
>
> Warrior is after all a skill that enhances combat skills why not make spy
> simular.
> Simple enough of a solution?
>
> Helen Saggers
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I think you are confusing *Greater Noble* with *Spy*, darling.

Not all spies act like Isil Eth - though it would be an interesting world of
court intrigue if we did.

-----Original Message-----
From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]

limit it to subskills that a spy would have. <snip> 
the better spies get a servant to deliver them for copying etc. <snip> 
If you want another to do something relevant, then be a spy.


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Perhaps the nature of our game encourages gathering of info by talking to
NPCs rather than direct action. B&E is usually a solo mission, requiring
careful planning and often local knowledge. Courtier stuff *should* usually
have the same requirements, but is usually played as "everyone piles in and
talks over the top of the local ranking nobles, arguing amongst themselves".
Do that on a B&E mission and you get caught, on a social mission and the GMs
let you get away with it. So Spy/Courtier is the safe way to get info, and
involves more players.

To fix that, GMs could give more leniency on B&E or less leniency on social
interaction.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: helen@owbn.net.nz [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]

Thieves steal property
Spies steal information
Thus the traditional Theif /spy overlap.

IMHO the spy/courtier overlap arises because there have been Too few uses of
PC spies to B&E into merchant or naval ship yards, guard houses or other
such places were valuable information is kept, to steal or copy/memorise
documents.
And far more use of PC Spies to gather information from sailors, guardsmen,
courtiers in social interaction, ie using the courtier skill.
Thus current thinking of many on the skills needed for spy has a strong lean
towards the spy/courtier overlap needed for an embasidor or social spy
rather than the military scout or corporate espianage type spy, who would
need b&e skills, as well as camoflage/disguise type skills to successful
observe a target, ie obsevring military camps, fleets outfitting for
voyages, merchant wagon trains.


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I think there is a translation problem here - what the lady has rendered as
'servant' is probably a Court Elvish expression for 'one who serves'. She
has been confused by the different emphasis of the word in the Common
tongue.

:-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AndrewW@datacom.co.nz [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 8:18 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Spy -oblique and Theif, Courtier etc
> 
> 
> I think you are confusing *Greater Noble* with *Spy*, darling.
> 
> Not all spies act like Isil Eth - though it would be an 
> interesting world of
> court intrigue if we did.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]
> 
> limit it to subskills that a spy would have. <snip> 
> the better spies get a servant to deliver them for copying 
> etc. <snip> 
> If you want another to do something relevant, then be a spy.

>


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Andew

-To fix that, GMs could give more leniency on B&E or less leniency on social
interaction.

Expecting a player from an egalatarian, 21st century society with absolutly
no tradition of aristocracy, let alone nobility to keep their gob shut is
like expecting heavy elements to not undergo radioactive decay.
But we all know that and so don't have the PCs imprisoned every time they
meet some nobles. It would get boring, repetitive and we would soon run out
of nobles.
Besides sitting there twiddling your thumbs wondering what particular tele
show I'm missing while watching the equivalent of a costume drama without
even the, well costuming is not fun. Well, not yet.
On the other hand there is waiting while the thieves go do some B&E and for
them to either come out or run into the guards. In which case you can shout
"Dwarf Stealth" and go in charms blazing and reduce the warehouse to a
smoking crater. This is always fun, esp if said thief gets fragged by the
poisoned, whirling, scythed, spring loaded, gas vent trap. Nasty. Except
mabye for the thief. But at least they'll be quiet for a while :.-)

And now back to your regular program,
William


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I like this overhaul of the spy skill as it has for all intents been a
flimsy skill in nthe DQ system thus far and this may encourage some spy
players to use their skills and seek adventures suited to them and their
cunning.  
----
There is also the spy type - spy or ring master who is at the centre of a
'web'
of information, while the master may be seen as a 'normal' individual he
through his
trusted Lt's is carrying out spying activitis of various types.
While this would seem to be 'passive' with his minions collecting, listening
and waiting for tidbits to be dropped and then the information collated
somewhere it is not so.

Many ways of collecting information may appear passive but are exactly the
more spy'y sorts of activities whereby the ppl don't actively look for
information/things unless specifically tasked for them that is.
----
The establishment of a spying network would require the cooperation of a GM
or two and discussion of what and how the network will be structured for
each individual PC - not that there are that many high ranked Spy characters
I think!
Or the Spy characters could all come together and jointly design a 'network'
across specific areas to start with (this could grow over time along with
contacts etc) which would cater for their needs and also utilise their
specialty sub skills such as Social/noble spy as well as military scout etc.

Cheers   Chris
 
-----Original Message-----
From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
Sent: Monday, 14 October 2002 15:39
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Simple Spy


errolc@tranzlink.co.nz wrote:

>An issue with the 'Base Skill plus chose from 17+ options' method was
>brought up by Stephen last  week
>
>...
>
>How do GMs feel about keeping which options a mid-to-high rank spy has
taken
>in their head? Is this a problem worth worrying about?
>
Stephen's comments seemed to be more around abilities at different 
ranks.  He stated that it's "not too hard to remember that Kate is a 
socially oriented spy and Kryan is a military scout and make descisions 
on what they are likely to notice".  A social oriented spy would 
presumably be one who had selected several social type sub-skills.  He 
went on to say that it would be "somewhat harder to remember that Kate 
is Rk 9 in polite intimidation, Rk 6 in forgery and Rk 4 in social 
observation when trying to decide how likely she is to notice the 
curtain twitching as if someone is behind it".

To me this argues more against over complexity than elective sub-skills. 
 But, that said, there are good reasons not to have too many sub-skills 
of a similar nature.  In the quick re-hash I made this morning I 
deliberately threw several of the manipulation subs together, and two of 
the conversation ones.  Too many fiddly subs = more complexity and too 
much for moi to remember when GM-ing.

>With Spy, I would
>think there are more instances of it being passive from the PCs point of
>view, requiring the GM to remember it.
>
Passivley spying?  Well, if you mean just sitting around and waiting to 
hear something... but even then the spy PC may be actively 
disguised/acting native and the like. Don't see this as a major issue.

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Picking up a side thread from the Spy/skill discussions...

Some of you assert that there is no place for passive use of skills in DQ.
I disagree, 80% of the use of skills in a role-playing game should be passive.


It's a matter of having the characters skills support the players role-playing.

A Courtier/Spy asking leading questions in polite conversation should have much
greater success than another character without those skills.

A Rk 9 Courtier can get away with their player "Oi Noddy what're you up to?"
to the local lords favourite nephew where the Rk 1 Courtier would find themselves
trying to explain their actions to the Chief Steward and his friend Guido.
Of course if the Rk 9 Courtier made an effort to role-play their skill and said
"What ho good m'lord" the nephew might answer their question without considering
what type of poison best suits your complexion.

The high rank Spy is more likely to notice the curtain twitching than anyone
else in the party.
The high rank Assassin is more likely to notice the crossbow rigged up in the
eaves to shoot the king (it's where they'd put it).
The Rk 10 Mil Sci can say we should charge them accross open ground and it will
take the enemy by suprise and catch the weak point in their defences.  The Rk
0 Mil Sci announcing the same plan would lead their party through a hail of
arrows with no cover.

When the rank 10 Ranger says that climbing the mountain range will be safer
than going through the pass, it is.

The problem with this and when it fails is when I (while GMing) forget the characters
skills or abilities that apply to a situation.  It usually disrupts the flow
too much to stop and ask who has x skill and it gives things away to ask who
is an Assassin with decent PC.

I'll finish with one of my favourite player use of skill stories (sadly I can't
remember who it was).  The party wanted to do an astrology reading about the
success of the mission, so the player of the astrologer got out their Tarot
deck, laid out the cards and gave the party a reading based on the cards.  A
quick roll of the dice against their skill and then I altered the adventure
slightly to fit in with their reading.
When a player goes to that sort of effort in their role-playing (and they have
the character skills to back it up) they get my full GM support.

Cheers, Stephen.


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ahem, she meant get the lord's servant to slip you the documents. Or
distract him whilst he should be tending to other things... Surely you
didn't suggest that any of her servants are spies, did you? <g>


Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: <errolc@tranzlink.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 08:30
Subject: Re: [dq] Spy -oblique and Theif, Courtier etc


> I think there is a translation problem here - what the lady has rendered
as
> 'servant' is probably a Court Elvish expression for 'one who serves'. She
> has been confused by the different emphasis of the word in the Common
> tongue.
>
> :-)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AndrewW@datacom.co.nz [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 16 October 2002 8:18 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Spy -oblique and Theif, Courtier etc
> >
> >
> > I think you are confusing *Greater Noble* with *Spy*, darling.
> >
> > Not all spies act like Isil Eth - though it would be an
> > interesting world of
> > court intrigue if we did.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]
> >
> > limit it to subskills that a spy would have. <snip>
> > the better spies get a servant to deliver them for copying
> > etc. <snip>
> > If you want another to do something relevant, then be a spy.
>
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Are you after a role-playing game where players talk there way through
things, or a game where everything is decided on the roll of a dice with
very little character talking and interaction

Jason

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
dworkin@ihug.co.nz
Sent: Tuesday, 15 October 2002 11:55 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Simple Spy 


>
> How do GMs feel about keeping which options a mid-to-high rank spy has
taken
> in their head? Is this a problem worth worrying about?
> Nearest thing that we have now is Courtier. In most cases the PC would
be
> actively doing something to bring the skill into play. With Spy, I
would
> think there are more instances of it being passive from the PCs point
of
> view, requiring the GM to remember it.

I dislike 'passive' abilities that require me to fork over infomation
whether the player is snoozing in the chair or not. And I am never going
to
remember them unless I know the character (and their players don't take
naps).
'Active' abilities are better. That way the player informs me of
whatever
skill, subskill, wierdo thang that they have. Active stuff is far more
fun
too and I prefer the players to act rather than react.

Example: The PC needs to retrieve some documents from a town house of
some
minor noble. I will ask the character what skills they are using to do
the
deed.

Like:

I use my spy to look like a servant and bribe the guard if found
snooping.
I use thief and sneak in through the back window, crawl through the
house
and sneak out.
I use courtier and intimidate the guard to let me into the palour and
seduce
the noble, I leave with the documents.
I use assasian, sap the guard, poison the servant with a blow dart and
torture the noble until he gives me the documents.
I tell the noble that as an Imperial Princess of Alfhiem he had better
hand
it over. NOW!
I open a warp gate and little pixies run round the house while a balrog
flattens it, picks up the documents and says 'here you are master'.
I use warrior and smack anybody who tries anything. I go through the
front
door.


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Simultaneous to the Spy proposal, is a proposed amendment to Courtier.  

Insert a new first paragraph, under section 46.2 Benefits:

At rank zero courtiers learn how to respond to social chit chat (gossip)
and instigate innocuous conversations on safe subjects.  The courtier may
recognise when the topic of conversation is not safe based on their
respondants' answers (or lack thereof). 
The beginning courtier learns the correct submissive gestures required to
survive at court, and how to make obsequiousities, gallant apologies and
the like. The success of these conversations depend on the roleplaying of
the player, though the GM should make allowances for slip ups on the
player's behalf.
The courtier may quickly fall into light, apparently friendly,
conversation. After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of
social interaction that they can hold a light conversation while doing
something else such as using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips,
memorising, or even daydreaming.

Also, remove the play instrument ability - following the spy logic used, go
learn Troubador.  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
watercolours are taught by artists.  All courtly employment, but not
courtier stuff.

Regards,
Sally


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