>
> Some of you assert that there is no place for passive use of skills in DQ.
> I disagree, 80% of the use of skills in a role-playing game should be
passive.
>

I think you misunderstand my use of the word passive. It IMEO applys to
those abilities which require me to impart infomation to the party whether
the player sits there sucking their thumb or gets in and trys stuff. If
they're doing things then they deserve all the infomation they get. The
worst passive skill is detect ambush, not only does it not require any
effort on behalf of the player it implies that the party will always be on
the back foot. Set ambush would be a better skill and demand a more
proactive attitude from players.

Talking to an NPC is an action. Take their skills into account.
Scoping the throne room is an action. Take their skills into account.
Deciding how to get to point B is an action. take their skills into account.
Sitting there eating the chips and demanding why they did not get to detect
the ambush because they're a Rk8 ranger is not and furthermore is asking for
a poisoned quarrel in the head. Smack them upside the head and fudge the
spec grev result.


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salient@kcbbs.gen.nz wrote:

>Insert a new first paragraph, under section 46.2 Benefits:
>
>At rank zero... After rank 4... 
>
Agree.  Generic ability for all Courtiers is a good way to handle 
this... it's very hard to imagine a courtier who is incapable of social 
chit-chat.

>Also, remove the play instrument ability - following the spy logic used, go
>learn Troubador.
>
Disagree.  Learning an instrument also covers the music played and 
Courtier already has the caveat that they will "tend to know mostly 
formal, structured music".

Perhaps it should note that only certain instruments are available this 
way -- whatever instruments are considered part of the overall education 
of a Lord/Lady -- as opposed to a minstrel.  Hmmm.... if a gentleman is 
one who knows how to play the piano accordion, but doesn't... does that 
make it a courtly instrument, or no? :-)

Basically there's a difference between singing opera and bawdy songs -- 
in the same way that ""Formal Dance -  a good grounding in formal 
courtly dances, particularly suitable for fetes and balls" is part of 
Courtier and "Dance - mostly traditional, often rural dances, performed 
for an audience" is part of Troub.

>  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
>watercolours are taught by artists.
>
[Aside] In genre, painting is largely taught by Master artisans to their 
Apprentices so that the Master can sketch out the commission and do the 
difficult bits and the Apprentices can fill in the blank areas in the 
exact same style.  This is why Artist/Painter is an Artisan trade.

Cheers,
Martin

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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dworkin@ihug.co.nz wrote:

>Sitting there eating the chips and demanding why they did not get to detect
>the ambush because they're a Rk8 ranger is not [active]
>
IMHO, (and why am I guessing that the "E" in IMEO stands for "evil"?) 
even the most passive skills should be actively activated, and lack of 
activation is very likely to result in skill failure.  The Ranger whose 
player states "I'll be checking for ambushes as the party travels" is 
much more likely to roll a successful detection of the ambuscade than 
the one who sits quitely scoffing the chips.  :-)

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mandos@iconz.net [mailto:mandos@iconz.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, 1 October 2002 11:25 a.m.
> 
> 
> The Seduction is included for Casanova style thieves, I.e. 
> seduce person,
> get them to bedroom, slope off in the middle of the night 
> with all their
> belongings. This is simply to assist in covering as many of the thief
> archetypes as possible.
> 

It is easy to get rather good at seduction fairly quickly. Rk2 Courtier can
be effective Rk4 Seduction for 550ep (750 odd if self-taught and ugly) and
11wks (what are you doing in your evenings anyway? :-), and pick up
carousing while they are at it. There is nothing in the courtier ability to
say that it only applies to ladies of the court. Carousing works with 'all
social classes'. In this context, I don't see the benefit of adding the
overlap to Thief.


> The extend senses should perhaps be extend hearing only, but 
> a thief does
> need to have a greater awareness of surroundings while stealing.
> 

I like the 'danger sense while sneaking' and 'know the way out'.

Cheers
Errol


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errolc@tranzlink.co.nz wrote:

>Rk2 Courtier can be effective Rk4 Seduction for 550ep (750 odd if self-taught and ugly)
>
Self-taught at seduction?!   Ummm... do you have to _practice_ with 
someone else?  :-)

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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That would only count if they were actually teaching you to _seduce_. This
is normally done by older siblings, peer group members, etc. In this case
you are at listed EP. If the pro's (no, _not_ the seamstresses) are teaching
you get the 10% discount. Trying (it on) by 'yourself' will cost the extra
25% I assume, plus the occasional slap in the face. Now if there is
no-one/thing to practice _on_ (as opposed to _with_), I would argue that
book learning alone will not help in ranking this skill. Although
roleplaying someone who _thought_ they knew what they were doing after
learning from books could be fun.

For help with what happens _after_ the seduction is successful, go to your
local chapter of the Church of the One Horned God - you will no doubt have
seen some of the literature that Darien has distributed....

:-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: martin.dickson@peace.com [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 9:45 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief
> 
> 
> errolc@tranzlink.co.nz wrote:
> 
> >Rk2 Courtier can be effective Rk4 Seduction for 550ep (750 
> odd if self-taught and ugly)
> >
> Self-taught at seduction?!   Ummm... do you have to _practice_ with 
> someone else?  :-)
> 
> -- 
>


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I disagree about the "talk and spy" section moving to Courtier - otherwise
*every* courtier is not taking their role seriously. Most courtiers really
do believe that Isil Eth's hem lines are significant - its only the cynical
spy types who can talk about them without real thought, because they wrongly
believe other things are more important.

The subskill could be re-written to being able to do "normal" things -
haggling in a market-place, talking about the weather, juggling, courtier
small-talk, whatever your other skills allow as simple tasks.

andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]

 After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of
social interaction that they can hold a light conversation while doing
something else such as using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips,
memorising, or even daydreaming.


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Oops - can do "normal" things without attention while doing
something else such as using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips,
memorising, or even daydreaming.

My apologies - I was emailing while programming - need another rank in
spy...


Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) 
Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 10:23 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Courtier amendment proposal


I disagree about the "talk and spy" section moving to Courtier - otherwise
*every* courtier is not taking their role seriously. Most courtiers really
do believe that Isil Eth's hem lines are significant - its only the cynical
spy types who can talk about them without real thought, because they wrongly
believe other things are more important.

The subskill could be re-written to being able to do "normal" things -
haggling in a market-place, talking about the weather, juggling, courtier
small-talk, whatever your other skills allow as simple tasks.

andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]

 After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of
social interaction that they can hold a light conversation while doing
something else such as using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips,
memorising, or even daydreaming.


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S From: salient@kcbbs.gen.nz [mailto:salient@kcbbs.gen.nz]
S 
S  After rank 4 a courtier is so familiar with this form of
S social interaction that they can hold a light conversation while doing
S something else such as using wizard eye, mind speech, reading lips,
S memorising, or even daydreaming.
S 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: AndrewW@datacom.co.nz [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]

> 
> I disagree about the "talk and spy" section moving to 
> Courtier - otherwise
> *every* courtier is not taking their role seriously. Most 
> courtiers really
> do believe that Isil Eth's hem lines are significant 

and they _are_ significant if enough of the people that they deal with
_think_ that they are. Society, wonderful thing :-)


> The subskill could be re-written to being able to do "normal" things -
> haggling in a market-place, talking about the weather, 
> juggling, courtier
> small-talk, whatever your other skills allow as simple tasks.
> 

Most skills have elements that can be dual-tracked - a street vendor can
haggle with a housewife while watching for urchins pilfering, I can do
simple excel stuff while recalling account codes for someone else, courtiers
can appear attentive to the Baron while watching for the Duke's entrance,
Andrew can add bugs while posting confusing emails ;-)

I think that 'two simple things can be done by competently skilled people'
is implicit in almost any skill.

Are we trying to say that Spies (either as a base skill or an option) can do
some fairly intensive observation-type stuff (like lip-reading) while doing
simple tasks that are part of the character's skillset?

The first bit of 'Gossip and Converse' in Simple Spy should be somewhere in
Spy IMO.
"Gossip and Converse: a spy may quickly fall into light conversation with a
mark that can then be steered onto interesting topics."

Cheers
Errol


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errolc@tranzlink.co.nz wrote:

>I think that 'two simple things can be done by competently skilled people'
>is implicit in almost any skill.
>
Yes, Adventurers can walk and chew gum.  Well... most of them anyway.

>Are we trying to say that Spies (either as a base skill or an option) can do
>some fairly intensive observation-type stuff (like lip-reading) while doing
>simple tasks that are part of the character's skillset?
>
That appears to be the original intention from the list of "wizard eye, 
mind speech, reading lips, memorising".  The last entry, "daydreaming" 
is perhaps more appropriate to Courtiers being entertained by the third 
hour of conversation on hem-lines.

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 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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  Playing instruments are taught by minstrels, as painting
> watercolours are taught by artists.  All courtly employment, but not
> courtier stuff.

not true. Ask Buckingham. Read Pride and Prejudice. The list of counter
examples is long...

Ian



>
> Regards,
> Sally
>
>
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>


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