Q:  Does anyone have a guide or good idea to the appropriate pricing of
lands in the baronies and surrounding areas?

Cheers
Chris


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One heroic act, or more likely, political bribe to the ruling duke/Count.
Then you get to be a landed knight or similar.

Buying a small holding as a freeman will be pocket change for adventurers,
but the local baron/landowner/feudal overlord won't allow you to buy up
large tracts, as it reduces their powerbase and control. There are plenty of
small freemen/farmers around owning up to 50 acres. Anything bigger is
generally hereditary

You might want to know rates for *renting* lands from your overlord instead.
These vary based on crops, war, and how much you've annoyed them lately by
inviting necromancers & orcs home for dinner.

I admit my view here is quite conservative. But that's all the nobles have
over us adventurers and the merchants.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Caulfield [mailto:Chris.Caulfield@WaitemataDHB.govt.nz] 
Sent: Thursday, 8 May 2003 2:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Lands prices in the baronies


Q:  Does anyone have a guide or good idea to the appropriate pricing of
lands in the baronies and surrounding areas?

Cheers
Chris


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I know us as adventurers could seriously disrupt the economies if we started
buy available land and we can get land by doing 'good deeds' for the rulers.

But for in game purposes I'd like approx idea of what prices to pay (buy
outright or freehold) for certain things, a small farm, a business in a
rural or urban setting, 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 8 May 2003 15:08
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Lands prices in the baronies


One heroic act, or more likely, political bribe to the ruling duke/Count.
Then you get to be a landed knight or similar.

Buying a small holding as a freeman will be pocket change for adventurers,
but the local baron/landowner/feudal overlord won't allow you to buy up
large tracts, as it reduces their powerbase and control. There are plenty of
small freemen/farmers around owning up to 50 acres. Anything bigger is
generally hereditary

You might want to know rates for *renting* lands from your overlord instead.
These vary based on crops, war, and how much you've annoyed them lately by
inviting necromancers & orcs home for dinner.

I admit my view here is quite conservative. But that's all the nobles have
over us adventurers and the merchants.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Caulfield [mailto:Chris.Caulfield@WaitemataDHB.govt.nz] 
Sent: Thursday, 8 May 2003 2:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Lands prices in the baronies


Q:  Does anyone have a guide or good idea to the appropriate pricing of
lands in the baronies and surrounding areas?

Cheers
Chris


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

The 15th and 22nd were both booked as well.

From memory we could have had 9am on Sunday 8th but I figured that we'd have
0 turn-out to that.

Queens birthday is a bit of a pain but I knew it would annoy  Errol and that
decided it for me. ;)
Nice wine btw.  I wondered why Wordsmith was being so pleasant.

On a more serious note... to avoid breaking with tradition for only the second
time in 20 years, on the 1st of June we will be having a SGM (special gods meeting)
at leicester hall at 1pm and inviting all players along to organise adventures,
relate stories, etc.  
The guild meeting will take place on the 8th as normal from an hour after noon
until 1pm - personally I'll be boycotting it as I don't believe the footpath
is an appropriate venue.

Historical footnote - the only other time the guild meeting has been changed
from the 2nd Sunday of every 3rd month was to avoid a long weekend when many
people were expected to be away. :)


>Bugger. (It's the stress I tell you)
>
>So did the excellent Mr Martin (who just happens to be my GM) realise this

>at the time and find he had no alternative, or do we find out their policy

>on trying to change to the 15th?
>
>PS tonight's wine is Morten's 'The Mercure' 2000
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 7 May 2003 3:37 p.m.
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: [dq] Whens da meeting
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephen_martin@clear.net.nz] 
>> Sent: Thursday, 27 February 2003 3:47 p.m.
>> To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: [dq-announce] Guild Meeting Dates This Year
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I have booked the hall for our meetings this year but two of 
>> our usual times
>> were taken!
>> For the June and December meetings, I have booked the prior 
>> Sunday instead.
>> 
>> 
>> Bookings Are:
>> Sun 9th March 2003, 12:30 to 2:30
>> Sun 1st June 2003, 12:30 to 2:30
>> Sun 14th September 2003, 12:30 to 2:30
>> Sun 7th December 2003, 12:30 to 2:30
>> 
>> I will announce to everyone the change in date for the June 
>> meeting at the
>> meeting
>> on the 9th but please remind your fellow players during the 
>> next session.
>> There
>> will be someone who turns up a week late but hopefully we can 
>> minimise the
>> damage.
>> 
>> 
>> Next year I'll try to remember to make the bookings in 
>> January and we'll get
>> our preferred times.
>> 
>> Cheers, Stephen.
>> 
>> 
>> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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> I know us as adventurers could seriously disrupt the economies if
> we started buy available land and we can get land by doing 'good deeds'
for
> the rulers.
>
> But for in game purposes I'd like approx idea of what prices to pay (buy
> outright or freehold) for certain things, a small farm, a business in a
> rural or urban setting,

I paid about 100,000sp for 100 arces in the back of beyond. I had no idea of
appropriate prices at the time so simply paid as much as I could.

While this may not really help it could serve as a starting point :)

Mandos
/s


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If adventurers were meant to work the land, they'd be
draughthorses.  If you mean you'd like to *hold* land and
control the serfs working it for you, then land cannot be
bought ... theoretically.

 The correct method to purchase land in such cases is to
marry the heiress -- of which there are a limited supply at
any one time.   If the character is not noble, he must pass
for noble & not be known locally; although inventing a
bastard half-brother who looks amazing like you will often
answer, in most circumstances.  This method will cost you
however, because in order to secure the well-endowed maiden,
you will have to bribe officials and (in effect) her liege
lord.  It may also be politic to give gifts to your
fellow-competitors who were also seeking her land ... I mean
hand.  And one of the problems being noble is that you are
often obliged to be politic, even when you don't want to be!

The other way to get land is to do a liege lord a valuable
service -- preferably one that can be portrayed as
honourable.   Although in fact, if you do services that are
not honourable, you'll still be rewarded: it's just that the
cover story has to be a bit more inventive.

The last way of buying land is to have a strict
understanding with your local arch-bishop.  In exchange for
massive "donations" & other good works (e.g., not saying
where the cash came from), you may be made abbot of a
suitable abbey:  if necessary, you can pay for a new abbey
to be constructed.  This sometimes has disadvantages in what
you're later allowed to do & to whom.

MP

> Q:  Does anyone have a guide or good idea to the
> appropriate pricing of
> lands in the baronies and surrounding areas?
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify
mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Michael Parkinson wrote:

>The other way to get land is to do a liege lord a valuable service
>
Bearing in mind that such a grant of land may well come with attached 
strings -- Adventurers, being the martial and often magical folk they 
are, have been known to get land grants that nobody else wanted because 
of their close proximity to belligerent barons, gruesome goblins, pesky 
pirates and the like.  Even those who have been given land that is not 
intrinsically hostile have found it to be lacking in amenities... or 
drainage.

And then there's the added complication of fealty -- often a clause of 
land grants -- and being called upon by one's liege lord for additional 
valuable services.

Beware Dukes bearing gifts.  :-)

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Chris Caulfield wrote:

>Q:  Does anyone have a guide or good idea to the appropriate pricing of
>lands in the baronies and surrounding areas?
>
>Cheers
>Chris
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>  
>
This isn't from the right period (i.e. c1800), but from reading too much 
Jane Austen:

Low or zero maintenance investments pay about 5% p/a. This would include 
government bonds (or equivalent), rent on land compared to purchase 
price. A business or job that will occupy you full time pays about 15% 
of purchase price - e.g. purchasing an army commission, a 'living' as a 
clergyman, a farm that you manage full time yourself.

Based on this, a farm with an annual profit of 1000sp would cost about 
6000sp. If you didn't want to manage it yourself, you could hire a 
manager at about 650sp/year, or you could let it for about 300sp/year. 
(This size farm gives an owner-manager an income of a bit under 
30sp/day, sufficient to maintain a comfortable/middle class family.)


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1000sp/365 is a bit under 3sp per day - subsistence living for an
individual.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----

Low or zero maintenance investments pay about 5% p/a. This would include 
government bonds (or equivalent), rent on land compared to purchase 
price. A business or job that will occupy you full time pays about 15% 
of purchase price - e.g. purchasing an army commission, a 'living' as a 
clergyman, a farm that you manage full time yourself.

Based on this, a farm with an annual profit of 1000sp would cost about 
6000sp. If you didn't want to manage it yourself, you could hire a 
manager at about 650sp/year, or you could let it for about 300sp/year. 
(This size farm gives an owner-manager an income of a bit under 
30sp/day, sufficient to maintain a comfortable/middle class family.)


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>1000sp/365 is a bit under 3sp per day - subsistence living for an
>individual.
>
>Andrew
>
Oops, sorry, out by 10 error. Multiply everything by 10.


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>1000sp/365 is a bit under 3sp per day - subsistence living for an
>individual.
>
Subsistence, yes, except that standard of living rates are given for 
hearths or households, rather than individual.

A family living on a 6,000sp farm (Michael's original out by 10 figure), 
gaining 1000sp equivalent a year (15%) are at subsistence level -- and 
live in a hovel eating turnips, sauerkraut and beet-soup.  This is what 
I'd term "serf" conditions.

In order (at 15%) to make 10sp a day / 3650 sp a year for the household, 
bringing the family to the level of most landed peasantry, the farm 
would be worth 24k or so.

The country squire in a smallish village (with a two storey house and a 
couple of menials) probably holds and works lands worth around 60,000sp 
(Michael's adjusted figure).

So... if you manage to get lands worth 60k, a PC could put in a manager 
for peasant wages (just offer the poor family at subsistence the chance) 
:-) and keep the remainder. 60K * 15% = 9,000 - 3,650 = 5350 - 40% Ducal 
tax (non-adventuring income) = 3210sp per annum.  Deducting 5sp a day 
(should one care to live in the Guild's salubrious accomodation), with 
one small and one large meal, plus bath once a week, (and occasional 
laundry), leaves one the princely sum of  2 silver pennies and 1 whole 
farthing a day to do with as you desire.  Wheeeee!  :-)

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Martin Dickson wrote:

>
> So... if you manage to get lands worth 60k, a PC could put in a 
> manager for peasant wages (just offer the poor family at subsistence 
> the chance) :-) and keep the remainder. 60K * 15% = 9,000 - 3,650 = 
> 5350 - 40% Ducal tax (non-adventuring income) = 3210sp per annum.  
> Deducting 5sp a day (should one care to live in the Guild's salubrious 
> accomodation), with one small and one large meal, plus bath once a 
> week, (and occasional laundry), leaves one the princely sum of  2 
> silver pennies and 1 whole farthing a day to do with as you desire.  
> Wheeeee!  :-)

Except that the manager needs to hire and oversee workers, plan crops, 
keep the accounts etc. If you hired a random poor farmer to do this job, 
you should expect significantly less than 9-10K profit.

In any case, investments that pay 5% make fine sense for a country 
gentleman who wants to have something for his eldest son to inherit, but 
very little sense for a PC adventurer (except for character flavour.)


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Michael Woodhams wrote:

> Except that the manager needs to hire and oversee workers, plan crops, 
> keep the accounts etc. If you hired a random poor farmer to do this 
> job, you should expect significantly less than 9-10K profit. 

It may depend on whether the poor farmer and family have moved up to 
poor by dint of hard work or started off richer.  :-)  There's an old 
acquaintance of mine about whom the joke went: "How do you get X into a 
small business?  Start him in a large one".  :-)

As before the 3650 per annum is for a household (i.e. poor farmer and 
family) rather than an individual so that should cover dad, mum and a 
couple of farm hand children (plus toddler, baby and granny).

> In any case, investments that pay 5% make fine sense for a country 
> gentleman who wants to have something for his eldest son to inherit, 
> but very little sense for a PC adventurer (except for character flavour.) 

Yep, best use of a farm for a PC is to have their own wine label.  :-)

-- 

 _/_/  Peace Software International     Email: martin.dickson@peace.com
_/     Martin Dickson                   Phone: +64-9-373-0400
       Senior Analyst                   Fax  : +64-9-373-0401


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Of course there's always the time honoured method of simply taking the damn
stuff by force. Worked for everyone's granddad.

Of course, given the strange artifacts that sit glowing in the attics of
Western Baronies this may not be wise. "Smithers my dear chap, get the
Omnistatic Wand of Death, we have a case of adventurers."

PS Do not invade Barretskine...


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