The other thing to bear in mind is this concept of freehold land.  Quite a
few houses in England (and, I presume Europe) are still actually owned by
some noble, but is used by someone with a leasehold title.  The leaseholder
is for all intents and purposes the owner of the land and buildings, except
that in the distant future (99 years is often the original lease period),
the ownership reverts to the holder of the free hold title.  Usually, they
just re-issue the leasehold for an appropriate amount of money.

So there could well be places in the Baronies where it is simply not
possible to buy land.

(Bit of an aside I know, but I'm sure people who know a bit more about this
part of European history may be able to verify or refute this ...)

Cheers,
	Brent.


At 15:18 8/05/03 +1200, you wrote:
>> I know us as adventurers could seriously disrupt the economies if
>> we started buy available land and we can get land by doing 'good deeds'
>for
>> the rulers.
>>
>> But for in game purposes I'd like approx idea of what prices to pay (buy
>> outright or freehold) for certain things, a small farm, a business in a
>> rural or urban setting,
>
>I paid about 100,000sp for 100 arces in the back of beyond. I had no idea of
>appropriate prices at the time so simply paid as much as I could.
>
>While this may not really help it could serve as a starting point :)
>
>Mandos
>/s
>
>
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>


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Brent Jackson wrote:

>...except that in the distant future (99 years is often the original lease period),
>the ownership reverts to the holder of the free hold title.
>
Just some interesting trivia -- in our world at least 99 year leases are 
largely an American invention, Europe favouring the rather longer term 
999 year lease into the 17th century, having changed from a 1,000 year 
lease term sometime in the late middle ages / renaissance.  There is 
speculation that a court may have ruled 1,000 years as fraudulent -- on 
the grounds that a period that long was really a sale -- and 999 was the 
reduced / loophole value.

99 years leases appear to have been common with the US colonists, 
although there doesn't appear to be strong evidence explaining either 
the change or the reason for 99 rather than 100.

>So there could well be places in the Baronies where it is simply not
>possible to buy land.
>
Almost certainly true -- but for most non-elven PCs, and certainly 
within the scope of the campaign, taking on a 999 year lease, even part 
of the way through its term, is effectively the same as buying the land 
with a fee-simple freehold.

Cheers,
Martin

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Martin Dickson wrote:

> Almost certainly true -- but for most non-elven PCs, and certainly 
> within the scope of the campaign, taking on a 999 year lease, even 
> part of the way through its term, is effectively the same as buying 
> the land with a fee-simple freehold. 

Actually, I've figured out a method of achieving immortality, but I 
figure the world isn't ready for it until we can solve the top-out and 
power balance issues of a 1000+ year DQ campaign.


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Michael Woodhams wrote:

> Actually, I've figured out a method of achieving immortality, but I 
> figure the world isn't ready for it until we can solve the top-out and 
> power balance issues of a 1000+ year DQ campaign. 

You know... from most people I'd be prepared to dismiss that claim out 
of hand... however...   :-)

Umm... OK, I think your conservative approach is fair enough... how 
about just sharing the method with the DQ membership then so that we may 
tackle this thorny problem in a leisurely manner?

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[...] leaves one the princely sum of  2
> silver pennies and 1 whole
> farthing a day to do with as you desire.  Wheeeee!  :-)

what?? One can own land that MAKES money? How is this
possible?  By the time one has trained the peasants
(ex-serfs) in the basics of reading, numeracy &
versification, encouraged the more promising into
appropriate crafts (it takes a lot of apprentices to make
siege engines, but they are so educational for one's child)
...

Not to mention the improvements that the farmers *say* the
land needs -- hauling out perfectly picturesque trees just
because it is hard to plough around them, cutting channels
to take perfectly good water AWAY from the fields (for some
obscure agricolous reason), losing all those pretty
marsh-flowers, ...

And there's one's obligation to the national improvement!
One of these days we must extend the canal system to the
River (and dredge that while we're about it), with the
necessary locks of course.  Fortunately the roads are
currently adequate (what use is a siege engine if you've got
no place to take it), for this year at least.

Silverfoam [Baron].

PS (from Michael):  there are lots of reasons to own or
lease land.  If you're merely looking for an entertaining
way to spend money, there are many estates that will quite
happily be leased out to you for the pleasures of the
countryside -- preferably for several years.  There are
quite a few nobles "wintering" in Middelmarkhauptstadt while
their hunting lodges or other estates are hired out to
retired merchants/traders/bandits.

Fortunately, with Alusian magic, there are more
opportunities for land development than was possible in
Europe.  One Bohemian ancestor in the 1390s had land that
was so poor, the only way to get anything out of it was to
flood it & "grow" fish.  Likewise there are career
opportunities.  I can see some Alusian Count or Graf
promoting a suitable PC to "Waldgraf of Leichensumpf" with
rights to all land within 15 miles, provided he stops those
pesky mountain trolls from getting at the Graf's swans or
salmon (or serfs, come to think of it).  "Naturally it is
traditional for the new vassal to give his lord a gift in
return, but because you're so busy shall we say a purse of
10,000 [gold]."


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Plenty of land to the South East that I'm sure the Duke would happily lease to
an ally who could hold it by force of arms.
Large grassy plains, clear starry nights, regular exercise and activity in running
from and after raiding undead.

And remember we're powerful mages, we don't have to be limited to the surfaces
controlled by the nobles.
Flying homesteads, floating towns, bedrock boarding houses, DIY island creation,
terraced housing on previously sheer mountain faces... the possibilities are
endless.


>Of course there's always the time honoured method of simply taking the damn

>stuff by force. Worked for everyone's granddad.
>
>Of course, given the strange artifacts that sit glowing in the attics of
>Western Baronies this may not be wise. "Smithers my dear chap, get the
>Omnistatic Wand of Death, we have a case of adventurers."
>
>PS Do not invade Barretskine...
>
>
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>


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Everything is controlled by the nobles. They just sometimes can't enforce
it. You would technically have to pay taxes to someone, and you would have
to lease the air/rock/cliff from someone. Of course, if they don't think it
through, it might be very cheap rent...

And a farm that moved would be asking for conflict between different lords -
"I want to rent some air space on Moondays and alternate Satyrdays - the
rest of the time I'll be a vassal of various of your rival lords."

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephen_martin@clear.net.nz] 



And remember we're powerful mages, we don't have to be limited to the
surfaces
controlled by the nobles.
Flying homesteads, floating towns, bedrock boarding houses, DIY island
creation,
terraced housing on previously sheer mountain faces... the possibilities are
endless.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 9 May 2003 12:42 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Lands prices in the baronies
> 
> 
> Everything is controlled by the nobles. They just sometimes 
> can't enforce
> it. 

This is one of the benefits of the artificial island/huge ship, yes?


You would technically have to pay taxes to someone, and 
> you would have
> to lease the air/rock/cliff from someone. Of course, if they 
> don't think it
> through, it might be very cheap rent...
> 
:-) when you pay people for scrub-clearing, there is a weighting for the
lands steepness, due to the extra surface area (vs the acreage as measured
on a map).

Cheers
Errol


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One of the things that has just been pointed out to me, is that the idea of
paying peasants that work the land for an owner etc. only came about after
the plague.
There was a big labour shortage, some land owners started offering money on
top of  'room & board' to get enough labour to work their land properly.

I guess they started cutting back on provision of the basics once the
shortage was over to offset the expense of the wages.

As for land prices, this is not something you can just say land costs x sp
per acre.

Provided that the land is available in the first place.
I think the idea of a 5% return on investment for land worked by others, or
15% for single family is a good start for working out rural land prices.
Then work out the income you need for the standard of living.
It don't matter much then if its a vegetable farm, a vineyard or a sheep
station.

There is however a limit to how much one family can work, and therefore the
maximum standard of living that could be earned.
Standards of living that included the employment of servants, would most
likely be supported by a farm worked by more than the one family.

If you wanted to work out acreage's from there, you start getting into
productivity per acre for the land use, factoring in the sale price of what
it produces. And remembering that price is often seasonally dependant, and
farm prices are lower than seagate prices. (Headache.)

The only thing that really matters is animal farms are likely to be many
times larger than crop farms, producing the same income.

Helen


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Helen saggers wrote:

>The only thing that really matters is animal farms are likely to be many
>times larger than crop farms, producing the same income.
>
Yes, but often on land that cannot be used effectively for crops -- 
consider NZ high country, and Ozzie outback sheep stations for example. 
 As such, while the acreage (or in Oz the square mileage) is likely to 
be greater, the value of the land will be less per unit of area than for 
fertile crop-land.


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> This is one of the benefits of the artificial
> island/huge ship, yes?

There is a distinct difference between an A.I. & a ship
(vassal vs vessel).  It is not unusual for a power or vassal
to be given control of all lands west of ... / beyond ... /
as far as ...  Just because it wasn't there before, doesn't
mean someone thinks they own it.  You just have to make a
case to the technical owner of why it worth it *to them*
letting you use it.  Sometimes promising not to hit them is
sufficient, but that policy is normally unwise in the long
term; implicit flattery & a cut of the action work so much
better.

Conversely it is possible to exploit Feudalism/warlordship,
especially when the land involved is considered useless, or
when one power would rather see a small place independent,
de facto or even de jure, rather than see it under the power
of their rival. E.g., displaced mainlanders taking refuge on
pathetic islands in a muddy lagoon, building settlements
that became a significantly international city in less than
3 centuries because it was situated between two powerful
empires.

Mind you, it also helps that the Venetians didn't allow
their internal squabbles to effect external trade,
restricted the exercise of democracy to those who knew how
to handle it safely, sabotaged their trade rivals, and
ensured that all open warfare had a sound commercial basis.


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Martin Dickson wrote:

> Yes, but often on land that cannot be used effectively for crops --
> consider NZ high country, and Ozzie outback sheep stations for example.
>  As such, while the acreage (or in Oz the square mileage) is likely to
> be greater, the value of the land will be less per unit of area than for
> fertile crop-land.

I was trying to keep it simple, hopefully good crop land is used for just
that.
Even on good land animals take more space, one of those weird things I recall
from school is the corn fed to to one of those american beef cows would feed
10 times the people the cow itself.

The question was for the baronies, no out back type country on the maps Ive
seen. :)

Helen


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> The question was for the baronies, no out back type country on
> the maps Ive seen. :)

The area in the baronies that I am GM'ing in has lots of high hill country
:-) The NZ varient of the outback farming wise :-)

Mandos
/s


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 What is the inherent value of ancient evil? The human lords may lay claim
to 'all points west' but the dwarves may have their own documents for the
same area...
And Alfhiem still reaches from sea to shining sea.

Of course this could make for a fun low fantasy game.  "This elf sold me the
title to ..."


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Helen saggers wrote:

>I was trying to keep it simple, hopefully good crop land is used for just
>that.
>
S'Okay, it's just one of those little sensitive / soap-box things, 
usually inspired by the contention that come next on (mostly US) 
discussion forums that...

>
>...the corn fed to to one of those american beef cows would feed 10 times the people the cow itself.
>
...which is then used as an argument for a vegetarian / vegan / 
frutarian / solarian diet.   :-)    Which, being in NZ and not in the 
US, always manages to get my goat since 95% of NZ beef is raised on rain 
watered pasture and is not corn-fed.  Apologies if I jumped at phantoms. 
:-)

>The question was for the baronies, no out back type country on the maps Ive seen. :)
>
The climate of the Western Kingdom and north-western Baronies  is not 
hot / dry enough for Oz outback type conditions though quite a bit of 
Ranke is fairly arid, and as Mandos said, there's plenty of NZ style 
high country.

Cheers,
Martin

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Martin Dickson wrote:

> Helen saggers wrote:
>
>> The only thing that really matters is animal farms are likely to be many
>> times larger than crop farms, producing the same income.
>>
> Yes, but often on land that cannot be used effectively for crops -- 
> consider NZ high country, and Ozzie outback sheep stations for example.

In a pre-industrial world, another reason to prefer husbandry to 
horticulture is that you can't herd the corn  60 leagues to the city to 
sell it.

Michael.


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The English still laid claim to parts of France and gave titles to it well
after the hundred years war. During that war, there were "rightful" English
& French lords for the same lands, often with one sitting outside the
other's town, sieging it. You need a title from the "right" nobility. And
everyone knows orcs (hobbits, giants, dwarves..) can't own land so the human
title must count...

Amdrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dworkin [mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz] 
Sent: Friday, 9 May 2003 4:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Lands prices in the baronies



 What is the inherent value of ancient evil? The human lords may lay claim
to 'all points west' but the dwarves may have their own documents for the
same area...
And Alfhiem still reaches from sea to shining sea.

Of course this could make for a fun low fantasy game.  "This elf sold me the
title to ..."


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Michael Woodhams wrote:

> In a pre-industrial world, another reason to prefer husbandry to 
> horticulture is that you can't herd the corn  60 leagues to the city 
> to sell it.

Actually, if you planted your corn is some parts of the Baronies -- the 
Fastness of Gwyllion springs to mind -- you may very well be able to 
herd it to market. :-)

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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>You need a title from the "right" nobility. And
>everyone knows orcs (hobbits, giants, dwarves..) can't own land so the human
>title must count...
>
Years ago, when exiled Destinian noble Don Fracisco Pizzaro de Cordoba 
was setting out on his expedition to "discover" the western continent 
(later named Terrranova at the party's suggestion... which he accepted 
over his initial thought of "New Alusia"), he sought out letters of 
marque from the Elven crown through Prince Gyronnwy of the Elven Isles, 
who is, by ancient fiat, "Lord of the Isles and the Uttermost West" (an 
up-till-then fairly empty title since the elves had pretty much 
forgotten about any lands to the west of the Isles) and explored and 
claimed lands in the name of the Elven Queen, later being granted the 
title of "Governor of the West" in return for a mere 25% of everything 
plundered... err... "salvaged"... err... "discovered" there.   :-)

And on that note, if PCs do desire lands (outside of the Baronies), I 
know of a place that hundreds, nay thousands of acres can be purchased 
for a most reasonable price.  'Course the indigenous inhabitants may be 
less than completely friendly towards their new landlord.   :-)

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