Some form of max disc is probably in order. :)  (Like languages).

Actually, with the major changes to Spy and (in-playtest) changes to 
Thief there seems little reason to keep the 50% discount between the 
skills.  While they were essentially the same skill this was OK, but the 
changes have been to make the two very distinctive, removing the basis 
for the discount.

A Halfling Thief could still get a healthy 50% off one skill: Halfling 
50% + Trainer 10% = 60% off.

---

Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>Just working on my charactersheet a little more when the question of thief
>discounts appeared.
>
>Currently a halfling thief with high ranked spy can get 110% discount when
>ranking theif.
>
>50% for being a halfling, 50% for having Spy ranked higher and 10% for
>paying for a trainer.
>
>How do people normally calculate the discounts for this situation. I checked
>back my ranking for Tussock who has only actually been in this situation
>once in her ranking and I had missed the discount at the time so I have no
>idea how this would normally be calculated.
>
>Any Ideas?
>
>Mandos
>/s
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>  
>

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

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Electronic Art Competition - Win a Second Hand Healing Potion!

I would like to add some images to some of our DQ sites to make them more DQish.

I have attached the two that bug me the most, the favicon and the pretty sunflower on the Wiki.

I have a complete lack of artistic talent, does anyone want to volunteer their skills, expertise,
or discrete plagiarism to replacing these?

Submissions for any other portion of the DQ sites also gratefully accepted.

Cheers, Stephen.




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Stephen Martin wrote:

>...Win a Second Hand Healing Potion!
>  
>
Pre-owned... or recycled? :)

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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What's the source for the logo on the front of the rules? That, or the inner
part, seem to be a good substitute for the wiki one.

Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 09:02
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Electronic Art


Electronic Art Competition - Win a Second Hand Healing Potion!

I would like to add some images to some of our DQ sites to make them more
DQish.

I have attached the two that bug me the most, the favicon and the pretty
sunflower on the Wiki.

I have a complete lack of artistic talent, does anyone want to volunteer
their skills, expertise,
or discrete plagiarism to replacing these?

Submissions for any other portion of the DQ sites also gratefully accepted.

Cheers, Stephen.




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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Electronic Art</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>What's the source for the logo on the front of the =
rules? That, or the inner part, seem to be a good substitute for the =
wiki one.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Stephen Martin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po=
intclark.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 09:02</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [dq] Electronic Art</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Electronic Art Competition - Win a Second Hand =
Healing Potion!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would like to add some images to some of our DQ =
sites to make them more DQish.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have attached the two that bug me the most, the =
favicon and the pretty sunflower on the Wiki.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have a complete lack of artistic talent, does =
anyone want to volunteer their skills, expertise,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>or discrete plagiarism to replacing these?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Submissions for any other portion of the DQ sites =
also gratefully accepted.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers, Stephen.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

</BODY>
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Errol Cavit wrote:

> What's the source for the logo on the front of the rules? That, or the 
> inner part, seem to be a good substitute for the wiki one.
>
Good plan.  If we're going to have a Guild/Campaign logo consistent 
would be good.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 08:55
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> 
> Some form of max disc is probably in order. :)  (Like languages).
> 

I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the rules be
multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full cost), but
that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
It solves the over 100% issue however.


> Actually, with the major changes to Spy and (in-playtest) changes to 
> Thief there seems little reason to keep the 50% discount between the 
> skills.  While they were essentially the same skill this was 
> OK, but the 
> changes have been to make the two very distinctive, removing 
> the basis 
> for the discount.

Indeed I seem to remember us voting that the discount no longer applies when
we voted Spy into playtest all those years ago (intended to stop people
grabbing ranks while they were cheap, I think, as we weren't intending to
retrospectively remove the discount from existing ranking). I have no idea
if this has been enforced. 

I haven't claimed the discount for Darien for the rank 4 and 5 Spy that he
has got since then. I've had one adventure since when the new Spy hasn't
been used, so felt a little 'cheated', but I've had unspent EP, and the
extra 2500-odd wouldn't have changed my ranking (I'm saving up for  Shadow
Walking.)

Cheers
Errol

> 
> A Halfling Thief could still get a healthy 50% off one skill: 
> Halfling 
> 50% + Trainer 10% = 60% off.
> 
> ---
> 
> Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> 
> >Just working on my charactersheet a little more when the 
> question of thief
> >discounts appeared.
> >
> >Currently a halfling thief with high ranked spy can get 110% 
> discount when
> >ranking theif.
> >
> >50% for being a halfling, 50% for having Spy ranked higher 
> and 10% for
> >paying for a trainer.
> >
> >How do people normally calculate the discounts for this 
> situation. I checked
> >back my ranking for Tussock who has only actually been in 
> this situation
> >once in her ranking and I had missed the discount at the 
> time so I have no
> >idea how this would normally be calculated.
> >
> >Any Ideas?
> >
> >Mandos
> >/s
> >

> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 08:55</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Some form of max disc is probably in order. =
:)&nbsp; (Like languages).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I was going to suggest that the discounts from each =
section of the rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x =
.5 x .9 of full cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it =
manually.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It solves the over 100% issue however.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Actually, with the major changes to Spy and =
(in-playtest) changes to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Thief there seems little reason to keep the 50% =
discount between the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; skills.&nbsp; While they were essentially the =
same skill this was </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; OK, but the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; changes have been to make the two very =
distinctive, removing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the basis </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for the discount.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Indeed I seem to remember us voting that the discount =
no longer applies when we voted Spy into playtest all those years ago =
(intended to stop people grabbing ranks while they were cheap, I think, =
as we weren't intending to retrospectively remove the discount from =
existing ranking). I have no idea if this has been enforced. =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I haven't claimed the discount for Darien for the =
rank 4 and 5 Spy that he has got since then. I've had one adventure =
since when the new Spy hasn't been used, so felt a little 'cheated', =
but I've had unspent EP, and the extra 2500-odd wouldn't have changed =
my ranking (I'm saving up for&nbsp; Shadow Walking.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; A Halfling Thief could still get a healthy 50% =
off one skill: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Halfling </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 50% + Trainer 10% =3D 60% off.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ---</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Just working on my charactersheet a little =
more when the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; question of thief</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;discounts appeared.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Currently a halfling thief with high ranked =
spy can get 110% </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discount when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;ranking theif.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;50% for being a halfling, 50% for having =
Spy ranked higher </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and 10% for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;paying for a trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;How do people normally calculate the =
discounts for this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; situation. I checked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;back my ranking for Tussock who has only =
actually been in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this situation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;once in her ranking and I had missed the =
discount at the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; time so I have no</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;idea how this would normally be =
calculated.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Any Ideas?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;/s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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I agree with Martin on removing the Spy / thief cross discounts.

We could also wipe the Halfling discount! This would leave a simple 10% for training and most of us can guess that within a 1000 ep or so.

otherwise i agree with the multiplication, and most of us use computers anyway. .5 x .5 x .9 = 0.225 from memory.

Ian

> 
> From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz>
> Date: 2005/03/29 Tue AM 10:28:35 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 08:55
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> > 
> > 
> > Some form of max disc is probably in order. :)  (Like languages).
> > 
> 
> I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the rules be
> multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full cost), but
> that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
> It solves the over 100% issue however.
> 
> 
> > Actually, with the major changes to Spy and (in-playtest) changes to 
> > Thief there seems little reason to keep the 50% discount between the 
> > skills.  While they were essentially the same skill this was 
> > OK, but the 
> > changes have been to make the two very distinctive, removing 
> > the basis 
> > for the discount.
> 
> Indeed I seem to remember us voting that the discount no longer applies when
> we voted Spy into playtest all those years ago (intended to stop people
> grabbing ranks while they were cheap, I think, as we weren't intending to
> retrospectively remove the discount from existing ranking). I have no idea
> if this has been enforced. 
> 
> I haven't claimed the discount for Darien for the rank 4 and 5 Spy that he
> has got since then. I've had one adventure since when the new Spy hasn't
> been used, so felt a little 'cheated', but I've had unspent EP, and the
> extra 2500-odd wouldn't have changed my ranking (I'm saving up for  Shadow
> Walking.)
> 
> Cheers
> Errol
> 
> > 
> > A Halfling Thief could still get a healthy 50% off one skill: 
> > Halfling 
> > 50% + Trainer 10% = 60% off.
> > 
> > ---
> > 
> > Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> > 
> > >Just working on my charactersheet a little more when the 
> > question of thief
> > >discounts appeared.
> > >
> > >Currently a halfling thief with high ranked spy can get 110% 
> > discount when
> > >ranking theif.
> > >
> > >50% for being a halfling, 50% for having Spy ranked higher 
> > and 10% for
> > >paying for a trainer.
> > >
> > >How do people normally calculate the discounts for this 
> > situation. I checked
> > >back my ranking for Tussock who has only actually been in 
> > this situation
> > >once in her ranking and I had missed the discount at the 
> > time so I have no
> > >idea how this would normally be calculated.
> > >
> > >Any Ideas?
> > >
> > >Mandos
> > >/s
> > >
> 
> > 
> 
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A HREF="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 08:55</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Some form of max disc is probably in order. :)&nbsp; (Like languages).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>It solves the over 100% issue however.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Actually, with the major changes to Spy and (in-playtest) changes to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Thief there seems little reason to keep the 50% discount between the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; skills.&nbsp; While they were essentially the same skill this was </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; OK, but the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; changes have been to make the two very distinctive, removing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; the basis </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; for the discount.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Indeed I seem to remember us voting that the discount no longer applies when we voted Spy into playtest all those years ago (intended to stop people grabbing ranks while they were cheap, I think, as we weren't intending to retrospectively remove the discount from existing ranking). I have no idea if this has been enforced. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I haven't claimed the discount for Darien for the rank 4 and 5 Spy that he has got since then. I've had one adventure since when the new Spy hasn't been used, so felt a little 'cheated', but I've had unspent EP, and the extra 2500-odd wouldn't have changed my ranking (I'm saving up for&nbsp; Shadow Walking.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; A Halfling Thief could still get a healthy 50% off one skill: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Halfling </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; 50% + Trainer 10% = 60% off.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; ---</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;Just working on my charactersheet a little more when the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; question of thief</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;discounts appeared.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;Currently a halfling thief with high ranked spy can get 110% </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; discount when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;ranking theif.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;50% for being a halfling, 50% for having Spy ranked higher </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; and 10% for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;paying for a trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;How do people normally calculate the discounts for this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; situation. I checked</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;back my ranking for Tussock who has only actually been in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; this situation</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;once in her ranking and I had missed the discount at the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; time so I have no</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;idea how this would normally be calculated.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;Any Ideas?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;/s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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Errol Cavit wrote:

> I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the 
> rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full 
> cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
>
Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to how it has worked for 20 
years... not that mere historical precedent should stop us. :-)  
Percentages for (I think) everything in DQ are always added (or 
subtracted) and then applied.

In a similar way, the 3% you get per rank on spells is really 3 * Rank 
with the total expressed as a percentage.

Changing this would be a bad thing.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:

>We could also wipe the Halfling discount!
>
Fine, if you wipe the 1.1 EP mod at the same time.

>otherwise i agree with the multiplication, and most of us use computers anyway. .5 x .5 x .9 = 0.225 from memory.
>  
>
Manual vs. Computer is not the issue.  Very different numbers is.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Done, the Wiki now uses the shield image.

Martin Dickson said:
> Errol Cavit wrote:
>
>> What's the source for the logo on the front of the rules? That, or the  inner part, seem to be
>> a good substitute for the wiki one.
>>
> Good plan.  If we're going to have a Guild/Campaign logo consistent  would be good.
>


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 11:25
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> 
> Errol Cavit wrote:
> 
> > I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the 
> > rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x 
> .9 of full 
> > cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
> >
> Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to how it has 
> worked for 20 
> years... not that mere historical precedent should stop us. :-)

I just looked back, and when Darien did Spy rk 0 - 3 (in one go, for
character and Real Life reasons), I used Normal cost * 0.5 (Thief higher) *
0.9 (trainer). I'm not surprised that this wasn't noticed!
I also just realised that I haven't taken up the 10% philosopher discount on
a couple of languages up to rk 2 or 3 - how will I cope with knowing I threw
away hundreds of EP over half a dozen adventures! :-)


> Percentages for (I think) everything in DQ are always added (or 
> subtracted) and then applied.

Normally the discounts are 5-30%, and it is rare for more than 2 to apply
(something specific plus 10% trainer). Exceptions include languages (covered
by 50% max rule) and racial aptitudes (Halfling/thief 50%,
Dwarf/Ranger-cavern 50% etc). It is quite possible the halfling + thief/spy
+ trainer situation hasn't occurred in practice previously - a halfling was
much more likely to get old spy ranks after thief, old spy having inferior
BCs for the same abilities at the same rank, at 2/3s the full cost.
Presumably anyone in this situation trying to claim back 10% of notional
cost to rank thief was suitably chastised by their GM, and a reasonable
solution applied.

If we make it a straight 50% max discount for all skill rankings, this is a
slight disadvantage to some races with skill-specific discounts (50% vs 60%
or possibly 55% (10% off 50% of full)) - they may as well not pay for a
trainer (small cheese most of the time anyway). Probably should leave as is
(and perhaps state the 50% + 10% = 60% discount explicitly). I would also
suggest adding the 50% max as a note to the languages line on the EP cost
table, and perhaps state that Philosopher bonuses are available in the same
place.

Nixing the Spy/thief combo seems to get rid of the big anomaly, and provide
an incentive to sort Spy out properly sooner rather than later. Shall we
pencil in Thief + Spy workshopping in early May?

> 
> In a similar way, the 3% you get per rank on spells is really 
> 3 * Rank 
> with the total expressed as a percentage.
> 
> Changing this would be a bad thing.
> 

No one is suggesting making cumulative (?? multiplicative ??) adjustments
within one modifier, or even rules section. We tend to re-write rules
section by section, there is some logic in treating relationships between
rules sections differently from within rules sections. You could argue that
the racial mods be treated differently from the discounts, as they are not
stated as a % off (e.g. "If an elf character takes the healer skill, the elf
pays three-quarters the EP to advance ranks, though they cannot resurrect
the dead.")

OTOH, there is also logic in being as consistent as possible in the
mechanics of the game.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 11:25</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Errol Cavit wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I was going to suggest that the discounts =
from each section of the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; rules be multiplied rather than added (so =
cost is .5 x .5 x </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; .9 of full </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; cost), but that feels icky, especially if =
doing it manually.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to =
how it has </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; worked for 20 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; years... not that mere historical precedent =
should stop us. :-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I just looked back, and when Darien did Spy rk 0 - 3 =
(in one go, for character and Real Life reasons), I used Normal cost * =
0.5 (Thief higher) * 0.9 (trainer). I'm not surprised that this wasn't =
noticed!</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I also just realised that I haven't taken up the 10% =
philosopher discount on a couple of languages up to rk 2 or 3 - how =
will I cope with knowing I threw away hundreds of EP over half a dozen =
adventures! :-)</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Percentages for (I think) everything in DQ are =
always added (or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; subtracted) and then applied.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Normally the discounts are 5-30%, and it is rare for =
more than 2 to apply (something specific plus 10% trainer). Exceptions =
include languages (covered by 50% max rule) and racial aptitudes =
(Halfling/thief 50%, Dwarf/Ranger-cavern 50% etc). It is quite possible =
the halfling + thief/spy + trainer situation hasn't occurred in =
practice previously - a halfling was much more likely to get old spy =
ranks after thief, old spy having inferior BCs for the same abilities =
at the same rank, at 2/3s the full cost. Presumably anyone in this =
situation trying to claim back 10% of notional cost to rank thief was =
suitably chastised by their GM, and a reasonable solution =
applied.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If we make it a straight 50% max discount for all =
skill rankings, this is a slight disadvantage to some races with =
skill-specific discounts (50% vs 60% or possibly 55% (10% off 50% of =
full)) - they may as well not pay for a trainer (small cheese most of =
the time anyway). Probably should leave as is (and perhaps state the =
50% + 10% =3D 60% discount explicitly). I would also suggest adding the =
50% max as a note to the languages line on the EP cost table, and =
perhaps state that Philosopher bonuses are available in the same =
place.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Nixing the Spy/thief combo seems to get rid of the =
big anomaly, and provide an incentive to sort Spy out properly sooner =
rather than later. Shall we pencil in Thief + Spy workshopping in early =
May?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In a similar way, the 3% you get per rank on =
spells is really </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 3 * Rank </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; with the total expressed as a =
percentage.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Changing this would be a bad thing.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>No one is suggesting making cumulative (?? =
multiplicative ??) adjustments within one modifier, or even rules =
section. We tend to re-write rules section by section, there is some =
logic in treating relationships between rules sections differently from =
within rules sections. You could argue that the racial mods be treated =
differently from the discounts, as they are not stated as a % off (e.g. =
&quot;If an elf character takes the healer skill, the elf pays =
three-quarters the EP to advance ranks, though they cannot resurrect =
the dead.&quot;)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>OTOH, there is also logic in being as consistent as =
possible in the mechanics of the game.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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What area of the Frontiers map is considered to be part of Carzala?

The central area from the forest in the north to Arn's Ferry, Slippery Rock, Reigars Keep, etc is
a given.
The Fastness of Girwyllan has been established in game as claimed but not really controlled.

Brastor is part of Carzala, so too (presumably) is the land in between (Sweet Riding etc).

The Sea of Grass and other areas beyond the Choth Pass are presumably outside the borders.

But how far east and south does the Duchy extend?

The current Dark Circle encroachment aside, how far does the Duke claim and actually control?
And how far does he claim but not control?

Cheers, Stephen.


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Courtier has almost the same issue...

High AG & high PB elves get Courtier at 20% of normal cost.
5k xp to get rank 10 (or just 1,600 to Rk 7) as opposed to about 25k for us average humans.


Errol Cavit said:
>
> Normally the discounts are 5-30%, and it is rare for more than 2 to apply (something specific
> plus 10% trainer). Exceptions include languages (covered by 50% max rule) and racial aptitudes
> (Halfling/thief 50%,
> Dwarf/Ranger-cavern 50% etc).


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The flip-side being that they pay 20% extra on _everything_ just for 
being elves... that said, I do tend to agree with Errol's idea of 
extending the 50% max discount from Languages to cover all of the 
skills.  (Or perhaps 60% to allow for the few cases of a racial 50% -- 
paid for with EP mod -- + trainer 10%).

Stephen Martin wrote:

>Courtier has almost the same issue...
>
>High AG & high PB elves get Courtier at 20% of normal cost.
>5k xp to get rank 10 (or just 1,600 to Rk 7) as opposed to about 25k for us average humans.
>  
>
>  
>

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> Errol Cavit wrote:
>
> > I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the
> > rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full
> > cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
> >
> Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to how it has worked for 20
> years...

Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there
were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date).
Although, for my halfling, I did neglect the nominal 1% discount (-10% MA
disct; +10% EM, as is was at the time) for convenience.

At the time the GM (Mike, Bart, ...? -- someone numerate) used the Hobbit
thief & Elven Courtier example ...

> not that mere historical precedent should stop us. :-)

Absolutely not.  Getting it right is by far preferable ... failing that,
even stating things explicitly would be desirable.

regards, Michael


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then perhaps we should lower all EP mods by 0.1?

or perhaps we should reduce the EP discounts to 30% for race, and reduce the EP mods by 0.1?

I disagree with extending the 50% maximum to all skills. 

But i would agree IFF we scrap all racial ep Modifiers AND add in some modifiers for Humans.

Ian


> 
> From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com>
> Date: 2005/03/29 Tue PM 03:55:03 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> The flip-side being that they pay 20% extra on _everything_ just for 
> being elves... that said, I do tend to agree with Errol's idea of 
> extending the 50% max discount from Languages to cover all of the 
> skills.  (Or perhaps 60% to allow for the few cases of a racial 50% -- 
> paid for with EP mod -- + trainer 10%).
> 
> Stephen Martin wrote:
> 
> >Courtier has almost the same issue...
> >
> >High AG & high PB elves get Courtier at 20% of normal cost.
> >5k xp to get rank 10 (or just 1,600 to Rk 7) as opposed to about 25k for us average humans.
> >  
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> -- 
> Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
> User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
> Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
> Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com
> 
> 
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>


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When we looked at Character Generation it was decided to keep the skill EP 
discounts that some races enjoyed.

I can't remember if we discussed whether the "half" et al EP skill cost 
was applied before or after other discounts.

Regards,
Rosemary





Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz
29/03/2005 03:40 p.m.
Please respond to dq
 
        To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        cc:     (bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)
        Subject:        Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.


Courtier has almost the same issue...

High AG & high PB elves get Courtier at 20% of normal cost.
5k xp to get rank 10 (or just 1,600 to Rk 7) as opposed to about 25k for 
us average humans.


Errol Cavit said:
>
> Normally the discounts are 5-30%, and it is rare for more than 2 to 
apply (something specific
> plus 10% trainer). Exceptions include languages (covered by 50% max 
rule) and racial aptitudes
> (Halfling/thief 50%,
> Dwarf/Ranger-cavern 50% etc).


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When we looked at Character Generation
it was decided to keep the skill EP discounts that some races enjoyed.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I can't remember if we discussed whether
the &quot;half&quot; et al EP skill cost was applied before or after other
discounts.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Stephen Martin &lt;stephenm@castle.pointclark.net&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">29/03/2005 03:40 p.m.</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to dq</font>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Courtier has almost the same issue...<br>
<br>
High AG &amp; high PB elves get Courtier at 20% of normal cost.<br>
5k xp to get rank 10 (or just 1,600 to Rk 7) as opposed to about 25k for
us average humans.<br>
<br>
<br>
Errol Cavit said:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Normally the discounts are 5-30%, and it is rare for more than 2 to
apply (something specific<br>
&gt; plus 10% trainer). Exceptions include languages (covered by 50% max
rule) and racial aptitudes<br>
&gt; (Halfling/thief 50%,<br>
&gt; Dwarf/Ranger-cavern 50% etc).<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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Like Michael, IIRC, I too have always multiplied. But only since mid-late 80's so Martin obviously has precedence. :)

I must go through the ranking and see how many hundred EP i have over spent... and how many an elf saves compared to it paying...

I prefer multiplication. A maximum discount of about 75% (50% . 50% . 10%) is possible and that seems ok given the extremes required to achieve it. 

Stephen's example appears fairly apt, but is rapidly negated as the elf does pay for it, and keeps on paying regardless of skill, atribute, talent, weapon or magic being ranked.

tra la, Ian

> 
> From: Michael Parkinson <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
> Date: 2005/03/29 Tue PM 04:12:19 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> > Errol Cavit wrote:
> >
> > > I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the
> > > rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 x .9 of full
> > > cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
> > >
> > Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to how it has worked for 20
> > years...
> 
> Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there
> were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date).
> Although, for my halfling, I did neglect the nominal 1% discount (-10% MA
> disct; +10% EM, as is was at the time) for convenience.
> 
> At the time the GM (Mike, Bart, ...? -- someone numerate) used the Hobbit
> thief & Elven Courtier example ...
> 
> > not that mere historical precedent should stop us. :-)
> 
> Absolutely not.  Getting it right is by far preferable ... failing that,
> even stating things explicitly would be desirable.
> 
> regards, Michael
> 
> 
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>


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Parkinson [mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz]
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 16:12
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.
> 
> 
> > Errol Cavit wrote:
> >
> > > I was going to suggest that the discounts from each section of the
> > > rules be multiplied rather than added (so cost is .5 x .5 
> x .9 of full
> > > cost), but that feels icky, especially if doing it manually.
> > >
> > Mmm... not just icky, but utterly different to how it has 
> worked for 20
> > years...
> 
> Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply 
> discounts where there
> were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date).
> Although, for my halfling, I did neglect the nominal 1% 
> discount (-10% MA
> disct; +10% EM, as is was at the time) for convenience.
> 

You _might_ not have ignored it, there is a good case for treating the EM
multiplier as a separate calc from sundry discounts:

2.2 Race (bottom of p9, 2nd column)
"Humans learn faster than non-humans. Learning is
represented in game by spending Experience Points
(EP). Divide any experience points a character gains
by the "racial modifier" and then spend the result nor-mally."

Not sure if this was the exact wording in 1988, however :-)

By the way, Mike checked Darien's Spy Rk 0-3 expenditure, so that possibly
explains my approach.


> At the time the GM (Mike, Bart, ...? -- someone numerate) 
> used the Hobbit
> thief & Elven Courtier example ...
> 



20% of normal cost for Elven courtiers doesn't seem too excessive IMHO -
well, maybe a little. Add back on EM multiplier (20/80 = .25) makes it 25%
BTW, if you multiply it out (50% * (10%+10%) * 10%) = 36% of cost. With EM
multiplier gives 45% of cost.

The more think about it, the less I like a cap that diminishes the value of
racial mods (which are paid for in EP, unlike the language mods)

> > not that mere historical precedent should stop us. :-)
> 
> Absolutely not.  Getting it right is by far preferable ... 
> failing that,
> even stating things explicitly would be desirable.
> 

This is one area where I would rate consistency highly.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Thief Discounts.</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Michael Parkinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz">mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.a=
c.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 16:12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Errol Cavit wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; I was going to suggest that the =
discounts from each section of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; rules be multiplied rather than added =
(so cost is .5 x .5 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; x .9 of full</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; cost), but that feels icky, =
especially if doing it manually.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Mmm... not just icky, but utterly =
different to how it has </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; worked for 20</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; years...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to =
multiply </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discounts where there</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; were several discounts and have done so since =
April'88 (Game date).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Although, for my halfling, I did neglect the =
nominal 1% </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discount (-10% MA</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; disct; +10% EM, as is was at the time) for =
convenience.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You _might_ not have ignored it, there is a good case =
for treating the EM multiplier as a separate calc from sundry =
discounts:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>2.2 Race (bottom of p9, 2nd column)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;Humans learn faster than non-humans. Learning =
is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>represented in game by spending Experience =
Points</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>(EP). Divide any experience points a character =
gains</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>by the "racial modifier" and then spend the result =
nor-mally.&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Not sure if this was the exact wording in 1988, =
however :-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>By the way, Mike checked Darien's Spy Rk 0-3 =
expenditure, so that possibly explains my approach.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; At the time the GM (Mike, Bart, ...? -- someone =
numerate) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; used the Hobbit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; thief &amp; Elven Courtier example ...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>20% of normal cost for Elven courtiers doesn't seem =
too excessive IMHO - well, maybe a little. Add back on EM multiplier =
(20/80 =3D .25) makes it 25%</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>BTW, if you multiply it out (50% * (10%+10%) * 10%) =
=3D 36% of cost. With EM multiplier gives 45% of cost.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The more think about it, the less I like a cap that =
diminishes the value of racial mods (which are paid for in EP, unlike =
the language mods)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; not that mere historical precedent should =
stop us. :-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Absolutely not.&nbsp; Getting it right is by =
far preferable ... </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; failing that,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; even stating things explicitly would be =
desirable.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is one area where I would rate consistency =
highly.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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</HTML>
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> 2.2 Race (bottom of p9, 2nd column)
> "Humans learn faster than non-humans. Learning is
> represented in game by spending Experience Points
> (EP). Divide any experience points a character gains
> by the "racial modifier" and then spend the result normally."
> Not sure if this was the exact wording in 1988, however :-)

Pre the dumbing down of experience, the correct method is to multiply any EP
spent by the EM (Experience Multiplier not Experience Divisor). However it
was deemed far too hard for people to use calculators and so became the
above ruling.

Which of course makes no difference to the question at hand but does annoy
me that it is assumed people are too stupid to manage basic maths.

Mandos
/s


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>From: Mandos Mitchinson <mandos@allowed.to>

>Just working on my charactersheet a little more when the question of thief
>discounts appeared.
>
>Currently a halfling thief with high ranked spy can get 110% discount when
>ranking theif.
>
>50% for being a halfling, 50% for having Spy ranked higher and 10% for
>paying for a trainer.
>
>How do people normally calculate the discounts for this situation. I 
>checked
>back my ranking for Tussock who has only actually been in this situation
>once in her ranking and I had missed the discount at the time so I have no
>idea how this would normally be calculated.
>
>Any Ideas?

Rather than adding the discounts together apply them one at a time

eg rk 8 theif = 12900exp - 50% for halfling = 6450 - 50% for  high spy = 
3225 - 10% trainer =3193 exp (rounded up).

while this is still an obseenly small amount of exp for rk 8 theif its 
better tha none or even gaining back exp lol.

the racial mods are a part of what sets the game apart and makes it 
interestng.

theif and spy are related skills and should be interconected

If you still think the discount should be changed try 25% rather than 
eiminating it all together.

TTFN
Michael

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On 29/03/2005, at 22:26, Michael Scott wrote:
> Rather than adding the discounts together apply them one at a time
>
> eg rk 8 theif = 12900exp - 50% for halfling = 6450 - 50% for  high spy 
> = 3225 - 10% trainer =3193 exp (rounded up).

This is how I had always done it.

clare


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