| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:35:40 +1200 |
Mandos Mitchinson wrote: >Pre the dumbing down of experience, the correct method is to multiply any EP >spent by the EM (Experience Multiplier not Experience Divisor). However it >was deemed far too hard for people to use calculators and so became the >above ruling. > > Aren't they mathematically equivalent? But with the revised method requiring only one calculation? (Even when one or other of the discounting methods under discussion is used). -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:49:18 +1200 |
Michael Parkinson wrote: >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). Cheers, Martin -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 08:56:20 +1200 |
Michael Scott wrote: > Rather than adding the discounts together apply them one at a time > > eg rk 8 theif = 12900exp - 50% for halfling = 6450 - 50% for high spy > = 3225 - 10% trainer =3193 exp (rounded up). This is the same as multiplying the discounts. (Aside: the final total is 2903 -- you've only given a 1% trainer disc). ;-) > theif and spy are related skills and should be interconected Thief and Spy were very interconnected skills pre-revision; this is no longer really the case. Cheers, Martrin -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:08:16 +1200 |
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote: >Like Michael, IIRC, I too have always multiplied. But only since mid-late 80's so Martin obviously has precedence. :) > > Hardly precedence. More likely we are seeing two "dialects" of DQ in play. :-) Given that the add vs. multiply doesn't appear to be documented, this is a case were we were each at the mercy of our mentors. :-) >I prefer multiplication. A maximum discount of about 75% (50% . 50% . 10%) is possible and that seems ok given the extremes required to achieve it. > > I have no issue with it (and am very happy to go with the majority view) -- it's just not what I was told/taught and want to understand the ramifications. Given this is a direct EP effecting issue a ruling one way or the other and explicit documentation is desirable. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Errol Cavit |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:34:18 +1200 |
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534A7.1060F6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is what is intended in all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way the discounts are stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max language discount is 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the 50% cap is really needed in these circumstances. -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. Michael Parkinson wrote: >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). Cheers, Martin -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534A7.1060F6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Thief Discounts.</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think = is what is intended in all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due = to the way the discounts are stated), _but_ multiply between sections, = then the max language discount is 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=3D44.1% of full = cost). I'm not sure if the 50% cap is really needed in these = circumstances.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Martin Dickson [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com= </A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Michael Parkinson wrote:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>>Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to = multiply discounts where there</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>>were several discounts and have done so since = April'88 (Game date).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>It is quite possible that different GMs at the time = advised different </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>methods. I make no claim to one or other being = _right_. :-)</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm also wondering if there are two different = criteria being used here: </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>calculation of discounts within a thematic group, = and between groups.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount = or penalty for PB </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and AG. If I have a character with PB less = than 12 (10% penalty), but </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add = and cancel each </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? = (1% discount).</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Martin</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Martin = Dickson  = ;  = ; ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>User Experience = Engineer &nbs= p; fax: +64 9 3730401</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Strategy, Research & = Architecture email: = martin.dickson@peace.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Peace = Software &nbs= p; &nbs= p; <A HREF=3D"http://www.peace.com" = TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.peace.com</A></FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- to unsubscribe notify <A = HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</= A> --</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534A7.1060F6A0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:01:33 +1200 |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=____1112137293027_zbet+O)n(v Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't have the rules on me, but aren't the discounts for languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer = 70% * 80% * 90% = 0.504% remaining cost? With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish ?) this comes in at about 50%. Ian > > From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is what is intended in > all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way the discounts are > stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max language discount is > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the 50% cap is > really needed in these circumstances. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > ------=____1112137293027_zbet+O)n(v Content-Type: text/html; name="reply" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="reply" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Thief Discounts.</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is what is intended in all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way the discounts are stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max language discount is 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the 50% cap is really needed in these circumstances.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Martin Dickson [<A HREF="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Michael Parkinson wrote:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>>Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>>were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-)</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount).</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Martin</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-- </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Peace Software <A HREF="http://www.peace.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.peace.com</A></FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>-- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------=____1112137293027_zbet+O)n(v-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:04:22 +1200 |
hi there, as MArtin wrote, Thief and SPy were related skills. The proposed changes make them less related, and therefore the cross-skill discounts are less relevant, and should IMO be reduced or removed. However, I beleive the level of discount is something to be discussed once the two skills are accepted for the rule book. > theif and spy are related skills and should be interconected > Ian -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Errol Cavit |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:09:45 +1200 |
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534B4.65DF2E50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" language skill Same group OR family is 20% Same group AND family is 30% Philosopher skill "Provided that the Rank of language being learnt is not greater than their Rank of philosopher, philosophers may learn to speak the language or to read an ortho-graphic language at a 10% discount. If the philoso-pher has chosen the Field of Linguistics, the discount is 20% instead; increasing to 30% if the philosopher has chosen the appropriate Language Group subfield Trainer 10% as normal > -----Original Message----- > From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:02 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] Language Discounts. > > > > I don't have the rules on me, but aren't the discounts for > languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer = 70% * > 80% * 90% = 0.504% remaining cost? > > With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish ?) this comes in at about 50%. > > > > Ian > > > > > From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> > > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00 > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > > Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is > what is intended in > > all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way > the discounts are > > stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max > language discount is > > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the > 50% cap is > > really needed in these circumstances. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49 > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply > discounts where there > > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > > > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised > different > > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria > being used here: > > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and > between groups. > > > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or > penalty for PB > > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% > penalty), but > > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each > > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > > > Cheers, > > Martin > > > > -- > > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: > martin.dickson@peace.com > > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > > > > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534B4.65DF2E50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Language Discounts.</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=2>language skill</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Same group OR family is 20%</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>Same group AND family is 30%</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Philosopher skill</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>"Provided that the Rank of language being learnt is not</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>greater than their Rank of philosopher, philosophers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>may learn to speak the language or to read an ortho-graphic</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>language at a 10% discount. If the philoso-pher</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>has chosen the Field of Linguistics, the discount</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>is 20% instead; increasing to 30% if the philosopher</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>has chosen the appropriate Language Group subfield</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>Trainer</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>10% as normal</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [<A HREF="mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:02</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: [dq] Language Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> I don't have the rules on me, but aren't the discounts for </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer = 70% * </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> 80% * 90% = 0.504% remaining cost? </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish ?) this comes in at about 50%. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Ian</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> what is intended in</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> the discounts are</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> language discount is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> 50% cap is</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > really needed in these circumstances.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > From: Martin Dickson [<A HREF="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Michael Parkinson wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> discounts where there</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> different </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> being used here: </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> between groups.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> penalty for PB </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> penalty), but </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount).</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Cheers,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Martin</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > -- </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> martin.dickson@peace.com</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > Peace Software <A HREF="http://www.peace.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.peace.com</A></FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534B4.65DF2E50-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Zane Mendoza |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:40:29 +1200 |
The other option is rather than let multiple bonus's stack you just add together only the 2 highest, as pointed out previously it wasn't very common for more than 2 bonus's to apply (language group + Philosopher + trainer) so taking only 2 bonus's eliminates a lot of the problems of larger bonus's, also it would lend itself towards a maximum without anyone having to impose an actual maximum, as all the issues/complaints are stemming from where more than 2 bonus's are being able to apply to a single ranking. Zane -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:49 a.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. Michael Parkinson wrote: >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). Cheers, Martin -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Zane Mendoza |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:00:38 +1200 |
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534C3.E30561D8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would say just use the 2 highest and put a rule into effect that = no-one can use more than 2 EP modifiers for 1 lot of ranking this would = have an inherant restriction on the maximum discount while also being = easy for everyone to understand. Just suggesting this as all the = dispute's are stemming from the fact that more than 3 bonus's or = reductions seem to be causing grossly underpriced skills. =20 just my 2cents worth =20 Zane -----Original Message----- From: Errol Cavit [mailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:10 a.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Language Discounts. language skill=20 Same group OR family is 20%=20 Same group AND family is 30%=20 Philosopher skill=20 "Provided that the Rank of language being learnt is not=20 greater than their Rank of philosopher, philosophers=20 may learn to speak the language or to read an ortho-graphic=20 language at a 10% discount. If the philoso-pher=20 has chosen the Field of Linguistics, the discount=20 is 20% instead; increasing to 30% if the philosopher=20 has chosen the appropriate Language Group subfield=20 Trainer=20 10% as normal=20 > -----Original Message-----=20 > From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [ mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:02=20 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 > Subject: [dq] Language Discounts.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I don't have the rules on me, but aren't the discounts for=20 > languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer =3D 70% *=20 > 80% * 90% =3D 0.504% remaining cost?=20 >=20 > With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish ?) this comes in at about 50%.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Ian=20 >=20 > >=20 > > From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz>=20 > > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00=20 > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.=20 > >=20 > > Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is=20 > what is intended in=20 > > all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way=20 > the discounts are=20 > > stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max=20 > language discount is=20 > > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=3D44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the=20 > 50% cap is=20 > > really needed in these circumstances.=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message-----=20 > > From: Martin Dickson [ mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]=20 > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49=20 > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20 > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Michael Parkinson wrote:=20 > >=20 > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply=20 > discounts where there=20 > > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). = > > > =20 > > >=20 > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised=20 > different=20 > > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-)=20 > >=20 > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria=20 > being used here:=20 > > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and=20 > between groups.=20 > >=20 > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or=20 > penalty for PB=20 > > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10%=20 > penalty), but=20 > > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each=20 > > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount).=20 > >=20 > > Cheers,=20 > > Martin=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115=20 > > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401=20 > > Strategy, Research & Architecture email:=20 > martin.dickson@peace.com=20 > > Peace Software http://www.peace.com=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --=20 > >=20 > >=20 >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534C3.E30561D8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Language Discounts.</TITLE> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D734545400-30032005>I=20 would say just use the 2 highest and put a rule into effect that no-one = can use=20 more than 2 EP modifiers for 1 lot of ranking this would have an = inherant=20 restriction on the maximum discount while also being easy for everyone = to=20 understand. Just suggesting this as all the dispute's are stemming = from the=20 fact that more than 3 bonus's or reductions seem to be causing grossly=20 underpriced skills.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D734545400-30032005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D734545400-30032005>just=20 my 2cents worth</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D734545400-30032005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D734545400-30032005>Zane</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Errol Cavit=20 [mailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 30 March 2005 = 11:10=20 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] = Language=20 Discounts.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> <P><FONT size=3D2>language skill</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Same group = OR family is=20 20%</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Same group AND family is 30%</FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3D2>Philosopher skill</FONT> <BR><FONT = size=3D2>"Provided that the=20 Rank of language being learnt is not</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>greater = than=20 their Rank of philosopher, philosophers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>may = learn to=20 speak the language or to read an ortho-graphic</FONT> <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>language at a 10% discount. If the philoso-pher</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>has chosen the Field of Linguistics, the discount</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>is 20% instead; increasing to 30% if the philosopher</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>has chosen the appropriate Language Group subfield</FONT> = </P> <P><FONT size=3D2>Trainer</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>10% as = normal</FONT> </P><BR> <P><FONT size=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</A>]</FO= NT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:02</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> = Subject: [dq]=20 Language Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> I don't = have the=20 rules on me, but aren't the discounts for </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer =3D 70% * = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> 80% * 90% =3D 0.504% remaining cost? </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish = ?) this=20 comes in at about 50%. </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 Ian</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > From: Errol Cavit=20 <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz></FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > Date: = 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> = > To:=20 dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > Subject: Re: [dq] = Thief=20 Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>> >=20 Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> what is intended in</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = all cases,=20 and is irrelevant for languages due to the way </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 the discounts are</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > stated), _but_ = multiply=20 between sections, then the max </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> language = discount=20 is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=3D44.1% of = full cost).=20 I'm not sure if the </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> 50% cap is</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > really needed in these circumstances.</FONT> = <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > -----Original=20 Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > From: Martin Dickson = [<A=20 = href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com<= /A>]</FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 = 08:49</FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> = >=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> = > Michael=20 Parkinson wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to = multiply=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> discounts where there</FONT> <BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > >were several discounts and have done so since = April'88=20 (Game date).</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > > = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > ></FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > It is = quite possible=20 that different GMs at the time advised </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> = different=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > methods. I make no claim to one or = other=20 being _right_. :-)</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > I'm also wondering if there are two different = criteria=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> being used here: </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> between groups.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > For example: in Courtier there is a possible = discount or=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> penalty for PB </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>> >=20 and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> penalty), but </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > AG = greater than 22=20 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each </FONT><BR><FONT = size=3D2>>=20 > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% = discount).</FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = Cheers,</FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > Martin</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> = >=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > -- </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> = > Martin=20 = Dickson = &= nbsp; =20 ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > User = Experience=20 = Engineer  = ; =20 fax: +64 9 3730401</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > Strategy, = Research &=20 Architecture email: = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> martin.dickson@peace.com</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> = > Peace=20 = Software  = ; = =20 <A href=3D"http://www.peace.com" = target=3D_blank>http://www.peace.com</A></FONT>=20 <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> > = </FONT><BR><FONT=20 size=3D2>> > -- to unsubscribe notify <A=20 = href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A= >=20 --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> > </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> = >=20 </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>> </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534C3.E30561D8-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Michael Parkinson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:17:04 +1200 |
This is a cute possibility, although it would penalise the odd player who only has several small discounts. Although, apart from languages or racially stereotypical bonuses, I agree that the chances of getting more than 2 discounts is rare. Zane's additive solution does imply that a decent Philosopher typically refuse tutors since having someone more experienced guiding you is a penalty not a help -- which even for philosophers is a bit bizarre. The problem is not the individual discounts which are either reasonable or, better yet cute. The problem arise in the combination of discounts. Multiply the factors, or equivalently applying the discounts sequentially as Clare mentioned, does at least stop absurd results which may happen for the additive model; but I'm happy with any system that will work. As for the need for calculators or spreedsheet -- well, who does manually work out 15,850 at 25% surcharge or 2,650 at 10% discount let alone 125 at 30% and 30% and 10% discount? regards, Michael > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Zane Mendoza > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 12:40 p.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > The other option is rather than let multiple bonus's stack you > just add together only the 2 highest, as pointed out previously > it wasn't very common for more than 2 bonus's to apply (language > group + Philosopher + trainer) so taking only 2 bonus's > eliminates a lot of the problems of larger bonus's, also it would > lend itself towards a maximum without anyone having to impose an > actual maximum, as all the issues/complaints are stemming from > where more than 2 bonus's are being able to apply to a single ranking. > > Zane > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:49 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts > where there > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | dworkin@ihug.co.nz |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:37:59 +1200 |
> As for the need for calculators or spreedsheet -- well, > who does manually work out > 15,850 at 25% surcharge or 2,650 at 10% discount let alone > 125 at 30% and 30% and 10% discount? > > regards, Michael That would be me. Cheers, William (your friendly luddite) -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:41:28 +1200 |
Zane Mendoza wrote: > I would say just use the 2 highest and put a rule into effect that > no-one can use more than 2 EP modifiers for 1 lot of ranking .... Just > suggesting this as all the dispute's are stemming from the fact that > more than 3 bonus's or reductions seem to be causing grossly > underpriced skills. The original case involved a Halfling with higher Rk in Spy learning Thief. Halfling = 50% disc Thief Higher Rk Spy = 50% disc Thief. Trainer = 10% (ignored per your 2 EP mod suggestion) === 100% disc. Limiting to 2 EP mods does not solve this and, as Michael suggests, merely penalises the player who for some odd reason has several small mods. Multiplying the mods still makes it very cheap for this odd Halfling to Rk Thief... but at least it's not free. :-) Cheers, Martin > > just my 2cents worth > > Zane > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Errol Cavit [mailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz] > *Sent:* Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:10 a.m. > *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz > *Subject:* Re: [dq] Language Discounts. > > language skill > Same group OR family is 20% > Same group AND family is 30% > > Philosopher skill > "Provided that the Rank of language being learnt is not > greater than their Rank of philosopher, philosophers > may learn to speak the language or to read an ortho-graphic > language at a 10% discount. If the philoso-pher > has chosen the Field of Linguistics, the discount > is 20% instead; increasing to 30% if the philosopher > has chosen the appropriate Language Group subfield > > Trainer > 10% as normal > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz] > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 11:02 > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Subject: [dq] Language Discounts. > > > > > > > > I don't have the rules on me, but aren't the discounts for > > languages 30% and 20% (group and family) +10% trainer = 70% * > > 80% * 90% = 0.504% remaining cost? > > > > With suitable rounding (IE not Swedish ?) this comes in at about > 50%. > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > > > From: Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> > > > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed AM 09:34:18 GMT+12:00 > > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > > > > Note that _if_ we add within sections (which I think is > > what is intended in > > > all cases, and is irrelevant for languages due to the way > > the discounts are > > > stated), _but_ multiply between sections, then the max > > language discount is > > > 55.9% (70%*70%*90%=44.1% of full cost). I'm not sure if the > > 50% cap is > > > really needed in these circumstances. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 08:49 > > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > > > > > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > > > > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply > > discounts where there > > > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game > date). > > > > > > > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised > > different > > > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > > > > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria > > being used here: > > > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and > > between groups. > > > > > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or > > penalty for PB > > > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% > > penalty), but > > > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel > each > > > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Martin > > > > > > -- > > > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > > > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > > > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: > > martin.dickson@peace.com > > > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > > > > > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > > > > > > > > -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:56:18 +1200 |
er, i beleive we want to reward PCs with unusual atributes, as part of the 'you are all different' campaign. so this suggestion would be counter to that. many thanks, but no, the problem is not due to the number of modifications, but the combinatorial method (add versus multiply). I would prefer to keep it simple and not penalise. Ian > > From: Zane Mendoza <zane@cutabove.co.nz> > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed PM 12:40:29 GMT+12:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > The other option is rather than let multiple bonus's stack you just add together only the 2 highest, as pointed out previously it wasn't very common for more than 2 bonus's to apply (language group + Philosopher + trainer) so taking only 2 bonus's eliminates a lot of the problems of larger bonus's, also it would lend itself towards a maximum without anyone having to impose an actual maximum, as all the issues/complaints are stemming from where more than 2 bonus's are being able to apply to a single ranking. > > Zane > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:49 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Zane Mendoza |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:14:41 +1200 |
Sorry for any double posts my work email is having issues with the the e-group. Either way does have advantages, additive is easier to work out and gives a bigger advantage to the players but also provides some rather absurd EP expenditure's where as multiplying the %'s is a bit more difficult (not everyone is good at math's or even knows how best to do complex equations) but will give more appropriate and less extreme EP costs. aside from that in the greater scheme of things regardless of if we add the bonus's or multiply them the main issue should be consistency. Might be worth asking players in games this session how they have approached it and make a decision from what the masses (no offense intended) have been doing and back date things acordingly. I know personally I have probably missed or ignored a few of the discounts that my characters are entitled to as this is a roleplaying game and I for one like my characters having character not always looking for the best way to get the most out of my EP so I have not always used a trainer if it was something one of my character's would try and learn themselves... Basicly what my ranting and rambling comes down to is what ever we decide can we put it in the rule book so that things are consistent. Zane -----Original Message----- From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz [mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 1:56 p.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. er, i beleive we want to reward PCs with unusual atributes, as part of the 'you are all different' campaign. so this suggestion would be counter to that. many thanks, but no, the problem is not due to the number of modifications, but the combinatorial method (add versus multiply). I would prefer to keep it simple and not penalise. Ian > > From: Zane Mendoza <zane@cutabove.co.nz> > Date: 2005/03/30 Wed PM 12:40:29 GMT+12:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > The other option is rather than let multiple bonus's stack you just add together only the 2 highest, as pointed out previously it wasn't very common for more than 2 bonus's to apply (language group + Philosopher + trainer) so taking only 2 bonus's eliminates a lot of the problems of larger bonus's, also it would lend itself towards a maximum without anyone having to impose an actual maximum, as all the issues/complaints are stemming from where more than 2 bonus's are being able to apply to a single ranking. > > Zane > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 8:49 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Thief Discounts. > > > Michael Parkinson wrote: > > >Hate to disagree -- but I was instructed to multiply discounts where there > >were several discounts and have done so since April'88 (Game date). > > > > > It is quite possible that different GMs at the time advised different > methods. I make no claim to one or other being _right_. :-) > > I'm also wondering if there are two different criteria being used here: > calculation of discounts within a thematic group, and between groups. > > For example: in Courtier there is a possible discount or penalty for PB > and AG. If I have a character with PB less than 12 (10% penalty), but > AG greater than 22 (10% discount), do these two add and cancel each > other (0% discount), or do the two get multiplied? (1% discount). > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- > Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 > User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 > Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com > Peace Software http://www.peace.com > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Errol Cavit |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:42:37 +1200 |
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534D2.229D2E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 13:41 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Language Discounts. > > > Zane Mendoza wrote: > > > I would say just use the 2 highest and put a rule into effect that > > no-one can use more than 2 EP modifiers for 1 lot of > ranking .... Just > > suggesting this as all the dispute's are stemming from the > fact that > > more than 3 bonus's or reductions seem to be causing grossly > > underpriced skills. > > The original case involved a Halfling with higher Rk in Spy > learning Thief. > > Halfling = 50% disc Thief > Higher Rk Spy = 50% disc Thief. > Trainer = 10% (ignored per your 2 EP mod suggestion) > === > 100% disc. > > Limiting to 2 EP mods does not solve this and, as Michael suggests, > merely penalises the player who for some odd reason has > several small mods. > As standard, it just takes the 10% trainer off characters using a couple of the racial abilities, and _all_ Philosophers learning languages similar to one that they already know. PCs who pick up additional non-standard discounts may also suffer. Cute idea, but it doesn't pan out. > Multiplying the mods still makes it very cheap for this odd > Halfling to > Rk Thief... but at least it's not free. :-) > I would suggest that if this odd halfling wants a thief skill that is worth a 50% discount to their EP costs due to having Spy ranked higher, that they should use a spy skill that is 90% like their thief skill, rather than one that is 10% like their thief skill. (I don't think Mandos is trying anything on by the way, he's just asking a sensible question.) If doing this, I would seem sensible to take back the last rank of spy, and re-spend the EP on Thief - there will be EP left over I think? Note also that the Spy/thief 50% discount rule is written in the current-in-rulebook Skills, and not in the versions in playtest (deliberately as far as I know). I wouldn't expect any level of discount to continue, unless the final versions get a lot more in common. Cheers Errol ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534D2.229D2E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Language Discounts.</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <BR> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Martin Dickson [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com= </A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Wednesday, 30 March 2005 13:41</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: Re: [dq] Language Discounts.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Zane Mendoza wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > I would say just use the 2 highest and put = a rule into effect that </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > no-one can use more than 2 EP modifiers = for 1 lot of </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> ranking .... Just </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > suggesting this as all the dispute's are = stemming from the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> fact that </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > more than 3 bonus's or reductions seem to = be causing grossly </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> > underpriced skills.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> The original case involved a Halfling with = higher Rk in Spy </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> learning Thief.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Halfling =3D 50% disc Thief</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Higher Rk Spy =3D 50% disc Thief.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Trainer =3D 10% (ignored per your 2 EP mod = suggestion)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> =3D=3D=3D</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> 100% disc.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Limiting to 2 EP mods does not solve this and, = as Michael suggests, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> merely penalises the player who for some odd = reason has </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> several small mods.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As standard, it just takes the 10% trainer off = characters using a couple of the racial abilities, and _all_ = Philosophers learning languages similar to one that they already know. = PCs who pick up additional non-standard discounts may also = suffer.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cute idea, but it doesn't pan out.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Multiplying the mods still makes it very cheap = for this odd </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Halfling to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Rk Thief... but at least it's not free. = :-)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would suggest that if this odd halfling wants a = thief skill that is worth a 50% discount to their EP costs due to = having Spy ranked higher, that they should use a spy skill that is 90% = like their thief skill, rather than one that is 10% like their thief = skill. (I don't think Mandos is trying anything on by the way, he's = just asking a sensible question.) If doing this, I would seem sensible = to take back the last rank of spy, and re-spend the EP on Thief - there = will be EP left over I think?</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note also that the Spy/thief 50% discount rule is = written in the current-in-rulebook Skills, and not in the versions in = playtest (deliberately as far as I know). I wouldn't expect any level = of discount to continue, unless the final versions get a lot more in = common.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C534D2.229D2E30-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] How big is Carzala? |
|---|---|
| From | Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\) |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:52:29 +1200 |
The area of the Superstition Montains was controlled by Dwavres, and there is the swamp and the Necropolis of Fallen Novadom - which was a bustling independent Principality a few years ago. The Filgeso Forest is pretty-much no-go for humans. The Gatar Depression and the wastelands of Sith are not habitable by Carzalan-style farmers. The Forest to the North-east of the map is also pretty much wilderness. These areas are all well outside the effective control of the Duke. The Duke will claim most of these excluding areas with powers he recognises (there are treaties with the dwarves, and some of the Filgeso Faeries). I believe that the north-west peninsula past the Fastness is also outside effective control, but looks nice shaded Carzalan colours in the castle. -----Original Message----- From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stephen Martin Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 3:25 p.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq] How big is Carzala? What area of the Frontiers map is considered to be part of Carzala? The central area from the forest in the north to Arn's Ferry, Slippery Rock, Reigars Keep, etc is a given. The Fastness of Girwyllan has been established in game as claimed but not really controlled. Brastor is part of Carzala, so too (presumably) is the land in between (Sweet Riding etc). The Sea of Grass and other areas beyond the Choth Pass are presumably outside the borders. But how far east and south does the Duchy extend? The current Dark Circle encroachment aside, how far does the Duke claim and actually control? And how far does he claim but not control? Cheers, Stephen. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Language Discounts. |
|---|---|
| From | Mandos Mitchinson |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:24:34 +1200 |
> I would suggest that if this odd halfling wants a thief skill that > is worth a 50% discount to their EP costs due to having Spy ranked > higher, that they should use a spy skill that is 90% like their thief > skill, rather than one that is 10% like their thief skill. (I don't > think Mandos is trying anything on by the way, he's just asking a > sensible question.) If doing this, I would seem sensible to take back > the last rank of spy, and re-spend the EP on Thief - there will be EP > left over I think? Actually I am not ranking at all, I was working on my charactersheet and working out automated discount calculations when this cropped up. The only time I have ranked with this situation I missed all the discounts and ended up with 60% for either halfling+trainer or Spy+Trainer I am not sure which. Although thinking about this a little bit. THere is the option of using both addition and multiplication. Simply seperate out the Racial from the non racial discounts. Apply them seperatly. So in the extreme case of the halfling thief with high ranked spy and trainer the discount would be ((Amount*50%)*60%) Same can apply to the Elven discounts as well. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] How big is Carzala? |
|---|---|
| From | Stephen Martin |
| Date | Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:55:33 +1200 (NZST) |
Thank you both, this is the kind of info I'm looking for. I am trying to get some basic information about the frontiers area compiled and organised in one place (the Wiki). I'm taking the details from the frontiers guide as "what was true 20 years ago" and updating it with my campaign knowledge of the area and the bits Michael documented in his Gazetteer. Any other facts established during game play would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Stephen. Attached below is the email from Rosemary. ********** From Rosemary **************** Err, my understanding is that historically Carzala is the light green area on the Frontiers map. Brastor isn't properly part of Carzala but is a vassal Barony. The stuff in light yellow is unclaimed territory, generally very lightly inhabited, doesn't pay taxes to anyone but also doesn't gain any protection from the Duke's forces. Since the war with Rashak a few things have changed but the only formal change I'm aware of is the pushing back of the northern forest and the formation of the village of Letostown. Informally a number of Brastor farmers settled west of Carzala along the road from Guignir's Hope leading towards the Plains of Desai. Given they have only been there a few seasons they may want to return to Brastor (or not since Rashak's army never came that way : - ). There is also a village of Halflings in the hills west of Crystal Springs, "Sunnynook". They appeared magically eight years ago, and have been doing some trading with Cazarla. I was the GM for several adventures arising from this.. They may now be formally part of Carzala, at the time there were good reasons for the Duke to accept them as new neighbours but NOT want to take any responsibility for them. It depends what the campaign commitee wants. Regards, Rosemary ******************************************************* DSL AK said: > The area of the Superstition Montains was controlled by Dwavres, and there is the swamp and the > Necropolis of Fallen Novadom - which was a bustling independent Principality a few years ago. > The Filgeso Forest is pretty-much no-go for humans. The Gatar Depression and the wastelands of > Sith are not habitable by Carzalan-style farmers. The Forest to the North-east of the map is > also pretty much wilderness. These areas are all well outside the effective control of the Duke. > The Duke will claim most of these excluding areas with powers he recognises (there are treaties > with the dwarves, and some of the Filgeso Faeries). I believe that the north-west peninsula past > the Fastness is also outside > effective control, but looks nice shaded Carzalan colours in the castle. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Stephen Martin > Sent: Tuesday, 29 March 2005 3:25 p.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] How big is Carzala? > > > What area of the Frontiers map is considered to be part of Carzala? > > The central area from the forest in the north to Arn's Ferry, Slippery Rock, Reigars Keep, etc > is a given. The Fastness of Girwyllan has been established in game as claimed but not really > controlled. > > Brastor is part of Carzala, so too (presumably) is the land in between (Sweet Riding etc). > > The Sea of Grass and other areas beyond the Choth Pass are presumably outside the borders. > > But how far east and south does the Duchy extend? > > The current Dark Circle encroachment aside, how far does the Duke claim and actually control? > And how far does he claim but not control? > > Cheers, Stephen. > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |