SubjectRe: [dq] Healer
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 1:11:29 +1200
yep, i agree with all of that.

point with poisons is to be 'damage with attitude'

> 
> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 03:19:47 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Healer
> 
> Yes Healer abilities are considered to have worked until they fail.
> 
> Yes a Healer can stop the effects of a poison as long as they keep trying to fix it.
> 
> It rarely happens in combat because the healer is better off casting their spells or wielding
> their items in combat.
> If a healer were able to take one or two pulses to cure someone who is poisoned in the middle of
> combat then they might do so.  Otherwise what happens is they trigger a Trollskin or Petit Mort or
> Hibernation if they have one to stop the poisoned person from dying then carry on with something
> effective until the combat is resolved.  Or the lower level approach is to pour a waters of
> healing down them and hope it's a natural poison.
> 
> My point is that Healer doesn't usually use their skill in combat because it is not a good use of
> their time.
> Tactically you are better off telling the poisoned person to fight to the death and you'll rez
> them later so that you only lose one effective person from the combat as opposed to losing the
> healer and the patient for the minutes it takes to cure them.
> If curing poison only takes a pulse then the balance changes and it probably is worth getting the
> poisoned person and the healer out of melee so they can spend that pulse and both rejoin.
> 
> 
> But I think that's all irrelevent as the problem is not with Healer.  It's that poisons are boring
> (only doing damage as I mentioned before).
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> >
> > er, i thought healer abilities stopped the progress of wounds, and i would expect that to extend
> > to poisons. Am i wrong?
> >
> > It may take several minutes or even an hour to comepltely negate the ill effects of a poison,
> > and that is one of their benefits to the game (PCs have to pay more attention to them and not
> > just quaff another potion). As long as the effects are suspended whilst the healer is
> > 'ministering' to the fallen (er healing them, not knicking their boots)
> >
> > I would prefer poisons to take longer than a normal blow to cure. and to linger. it is hard
> > enough to kill PCs as it is, and i want it easier.
> >
> > poisons should, imHo, not be combat friendly. they should be very unfriendly to any afflicted by
> > them. they should require the PCs to get out of combat quickly so that the fallen can be healed.
> > I beleive GMs need options on how to slow or hinder a party, rather than just damage them, and i
> > look to poisons to help in this.
> >
> > cheers Ian
> >
> >>
> >> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> >> Date: 2005/04/25 Mon PM 10:39:18 GMT+12:00
> >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >> Subject: Re: [dq] Healer
> >>
> >> I believe that one of the reasons behind some of the changes were to make the combat related
> >> healer abilities more combat friendly.
> >>
> >> The problem used to be that the healer cure poison ability took so long that it was never used
> >> and people acquired items and abilites to get rid of the poisons.  Or they just put up with
> >> the poison and took healing potions until it went away or the combat was over and the healer
> >> could attend to them.
> >>
> >> If the rules lead to the Healer being the person least likely to be able to cure the poison
> >> then there's something wrong with the rules. - IMO :-)
> >>
> >>
> >> But I think the key problem here is that poisons just do more damage in varying amounts.  And
> >> basically they're boring and usually  not as effective as a combat spell.
> >> If we were to address the poison issues and make them more interesting then the effects of
> >> "miraculous" healing could be written into the poison effects too.  So Healers might be able
> >> to stop the sleepy poison instantly but only be able to temporarily supress the poison that
> >> makes you vomit every time you eat. (as an arbitrary and not thought through example).
> >>
> >> Cheers, Stephen.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Mandos Mitchinson
> >> Sent: Monday, 25 April 2005 11:08 a.m.
> >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >> Subject: [dq] Healer
> >>
> >>
> >> It came up in a game just recently that the Healer skill of Remove poison now only takes 5
> >> seconds.
> >>
> >> The main thing I note was that none of the players in the game were aware of it, it was only
> >> found while people were loking to see how many minutes it would take.
> >>
> >> I am sure this is the kind of thing that was discussed and voted on etc, but I was wondering
> >> what the rational was behind it? It just seems a bit quick and easy.
> >>
> >> It also seems that a lot of people are still playing the old times which makes me think it may
> >> mot be a change worth hanging onto and going back to the old timings may be appropriate.
> >>
> >> Mandos
> >> /s
> >>
> >>
> >> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >>
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 1:15:37 +1200
happy to be (mis)represented by you andrew, 

yah got it right this tyme mate (aussi is easier to pick than put down).

ian  :-)

> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 03:44:21 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> 
> Stephen,
> As you say, there is a difference between what Mandos proposed and what
> Ian and I replied with. Ian and I believe that multipling all discounts
> is the most common method. We are also suggesting this is preferable to
> Mandos' proposal. Errol then suggests a vote to determine the prefered
> solution.
> 
> Ian - please correct me if I am misinterpreting your email.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 3:37 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> 
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> I believe that Mandos proposed that discounts are grouped by racial vs
> non-racial then multiplied _not_ all individually multiplied.
> 
> For some skills there is no difference.  For others there is a big
> difference. E.g. 1. Thieves get EP Cost * Halfling Racial Discount *
> Higher Rank Spy Discount. - No Difference either way (and yes I do know
> the Spy discount is going away but its an easy example). 2. Courtiers
> get EP Cost * Elven Racial Discount * (AG Discount + PB Discount).
>   As opposed to EP Cost * Elven Racial Discount * AG Discount * PB
> Discount.
> 
> As opposed to the method that causes the originally raised problem which
> is EP Cost * (Elven Racial Discount + AG Discount + PB Discount).  Which
> I believe we all agree is problematic.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> DSL AK said:
> > If every discount is multiplied individually, then Mandos' racial
> > proposal happens automatically, and stupid cumulative bonuses are
> > stopped. This is also what a large number of people have been doing
> > for some time. Most people use spreadsheets these days (yes, Wililam
> > is a person too).
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf
> > Of Mandos Mitchinson
> > Sent: Monday, 25 April 2005 11:07 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Discounts
> >
> >
> >
> > After giving it some more thought I would like to propose the
> > following.
> >
> > Racial Discounts should be Handled seperatly from all other Discounts
> > and applied first.
> >
> > So in the case of the thief the 50% discount applies to the cost then
> > the 10-60% from skill.
> >
> > Seems to be what people are currently doing in some cases and it is
> > nice an easy to apply. If people are happy can we get it added to the
> > Agenda for the next GM's Meeting.
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 1:19:46 +1200
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the ep cost has to be _multiplied_ by the racial EM (some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM). unless someone inversed them in teh last few months...

>, then divided by the Racial EM (see 2.2 Race).
> etc.

Ian

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<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff 
size=2>"All modifiers are cumulative" is a common phrase in DQ rules applying to 
multiple modifiers in a single section. Cumulative means "increasing by 
successive additions". Works for me.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>The EP cost of each <FONT 
size=2>ability improved is multiplied by a</FONT>ll applicable EP modifiers<FONT 
size=2>.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT></FONT><FONT size=2>Note that Racial EM (see 
2.2 Race) is a divisor.
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>The EP cost of each <FONT 
size=2>ability improved is adjusted by the product of a</FONT>ll applicable EP 
modifiers,&nbsp;then divided by the </FONT><FONT size=2>Racial EM (see 2.2 
Race).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff>etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Its actually 
really simple. Please keep it that way.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></SPAN><SPAN 
class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Errol 
Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 26 April 2005 5:06 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> 
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Discounts<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <P><FONT size=2>What you mean by 'every discount' needs to be further defined. 
  Taken to it's illogical extreme, this would mean treating each EP cost 
  modifier available within each skill in the rules as a separate 
  'discount'</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>e.g. A Courtier with PB 14 and AG 23 has cost of EP * (0.9) * 
  (1.1) = EP * 0.99, rather than the EP * 1 + (0.1 - 0.1) = EP * 1.00 that I 
  think we all consider correct, and what those drafting each individual skill 
  intended as default.</FONT></P><BR><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Therefore can your proposal be better given as:</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd 
  column p9) are applied to the EP earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>EP cost 
  modifiers within each Skill or other rules section[1] have percentages added 
  together.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The resulting EP cost modifier percentages 
  from each Skill or other rules section are then multiplied together.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>??</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Mandos's would be </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>Racial modifiers per 
  start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd column p9) are applied to the EP 
  earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>EP cost modifier percentages from '2.2 Race' 
  are multiplied with the result of adding together all other EP cost modifier 
  percentages.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>I think we can drop the current languages 50% 'cap' for either 
  proposal.</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>The other alternative would seem to be:</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd column 
  p9) are applied to the EP earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>All EP cost modifier 
  percentages are added together, except that [some yet-to-be-determined way of 
  stopping the couple of silly results]</FONT></P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>[1] A 'section' being one of e.g. 27 The College of Witchcraft 
  (Ver 1.1), 28 Skills, 29 Adventuring Skills (Ver 1.0), 30 Alchemist (Ver 1.0) 
  etc.</FONT></P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>The wording I've given can probably be improved, but I think 
  it makes the proposals unambiguous.</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Errol</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [<A 
  href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>]</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 08:23</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] 
  Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If every discount is multiplied individually, 
  then Mandos' racial</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; proposal happens 
  automatically, and stupid cumulative bonuses are</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  stopped. This is also what a large number of people have been </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; doing for</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; some time. Most people use 
  spreadsheets these days (yes, Wililam is a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; person 
  too).</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Andrew</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original 
  Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [<A 
  href="mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] On 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Behalf Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Mandos 
  Mitchinson</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 25 April 2005 11:07 
  a.m.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; After giving it some more thought I would like to propose the 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; following.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Racial Discounts should be Handled seperatly from 
  all other Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; and applied first.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; So in the case of the thief 
  the 50% discount applies to the cost then</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the 
  10-60% from skill.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  Seems to be what people are currently doing in some cases and </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; it is nice</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; an easy to apply. If 
  people are happy can we get it added to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the 
  Agenda</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; for the next GM's Meeting.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Mandos</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; /s</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A 
  href="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> 
  --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


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Subject[dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 1:25:54 +1200
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I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1% discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.

lets keep it simple, work out the actual consequences and hopefully we can have short rules without a plethora of sub-rules and cross referencing.

Ian (bit snappier than i meant to be, getting late and 20 hours since last sleep, and can't be bothered worrying if you two are robust enough to handle my snippiness)

feeling better already !!

> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2005/04/26 Tue PM 06:54:53 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> 
> "All modifiers are cumulative" is a common phrase in DQ rules applying
> to multiple modifiers in a single section. Cumulative means "increasing
> by successive additions". Works for me.
>  
> The EP cost of each ability improved is multiplied by all applicable EP
> modifiers. Note that Racial EM (see 2.2 Race) is a divisor. 
> The EP cost of each ability improved is adjusted by the product of all
> applicable EP modifiers, then divided by the Racial EM (see 2.2 Race).
> etc.
>  
> Its actually really simple. Please keep it that way.
>  
> Andrew
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Errol Cavit
> Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 5:06 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> 
> 
> 
> 	What you mean by 'every discount' needs to be further defined.
> Taken to it's illogical extreme, this would mean treating each EP cost
> modifier available within each skill in the rules as a separate
> 'discount'
> 
> 	e.g. A Courtier with PB 14 and AG 23 has cost of EP * (0.9) *
> (1.1) = EP * 0.99, rather than the EP * 1 + (0.1 - 0.1) = EP * 1.00 that
> I think we all consider correct, and what those drafting each individual
> skill intended as default.
> 
> 
> 
> 	Therefore can your proposal be better given as: 
> 
> 	Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd
> column p9) are applied to the EP earned. 
> 	EP cost modifiers within each Skill or other rules section[1]
> have percentages added together. 
> 	The resulting EP cost modifier percentages from each Skill or
> other rules section are then multiplied together. 
> 	?? 
> 
> 
> 	Mandos's would be 
> 	Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd
> column p9) are applied to the EP earned. 
> 	EP cost modifier percentages from '2.2 Race' are multiplied with
> the result of adding together all other EP cost modifier percentages.
> 
> 	I think we can drop the current languages 50% 'cap' for either
> proposal. 
> 
> 
> 	The other alternative would seem to be: 
> 	Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd
> column p9) are applied to the EP earned. 
> 	All EP cost modifier percentages are added together, except that
> [some yet-to-be-determined way of stopping the couple of silly results]
> 
> 
> 	[1] A 'section' being one of e.g. 27 The College of Witchcraft
> (Ver 1.1), 28 Skills, 29 Adventuring Skills (Ver 1.0), 30 Alchemist (Ver
> 1.0) etc.
> 
> 
> 	The wording I've given can probably be improved, but I think it
> makes the proposals unambiguous. 
> 
> 
> 	Cheers 
> 	Errol 
> 
> 	> -----Original Message----- 
> 	> From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz] 
> 	> Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 08:23 
> 	> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> 	> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts 
> 	> 
> 	> 
> 	> If every discount is multiplied individually, then Mandos'
> racial 
> 	> proposal happens automatically, and stupid cumulative bonuses
> are 
> 	> stopped. This is also what a large number of people have been 
> 	> doing for 
> 	> some time. Most people use spreadsheets these days (yes,
> Wililam is a 
> 	> person too). 
> 	> 
> 	> Andrew 
> 	> 
> 	> -----Original Message----- 
> 	> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On 
> 	> Behalf Of 
> 	> Mandos Mitchinson 
> 	> Sent: Monday, 25 April 2005 11:07 a.m. 
> 	> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> 	> Subject: [dq] Discounts 
> 	> 
> 	> 
> 	> 
> 	> After giving it some more thought I would like to propose the 
> 	> following. 
> 	> 
> 	> Racial Discounts should be Handled seperatly from all other
> Discounts 
> 	> and applied first. 
> 	> 
> 	> So in the case of the thief the 50% discount applies to the
> cost then 
> 	> the 10-60% from skill. 
> 	> 
> 	> Seems to be what people are currently doing in some cases and 
> 	> it is nice 
> 	> an easy to apply. If people are happy can we get it added to 
> 	> the Agenda 
> 	> for the next GM's Meeting. 
> 	> 
> 	> Mandos 
> 	> /s 
> 	> 
> 	> 
> 	> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- 
> 	> 
> 
> 
> 

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<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff 
size=2>"All modifiers are cumulative" is a common phrase in DQ rules applying to 
multiple modifiers in a single section. Cumulative means "increasing by 
successive additions". Works for me.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>The EP cost of each <FONT 
size=2>ability improved is multiplied by a</FONT>ll applicable EP modifiers<FONT 
size=2>.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT></FONT><FONT size=2>Note that Racial EM (see 
2.2 Race) is a divisor.
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT size=2>The EP cost of each <FONT 
size=2>ability improved is adjusted by the product of a</FONT>ll applicable EP 
modifiers,&nbsp;then divided by the </FONT><FONT size=2>Racial EM (see 2.2 
Race).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff>etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Its actually 
really simple. Please keep it that way.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></SPAN><SPAN 
class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=822514106-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Errol 
Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 26 April 2005 5:06 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> 
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Discounts<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <P><FONT size=2>What you mean by 'every discount' needs to be further defined. 
  Taken to it's illogical extreme, this would mean treating each EP cost 
  modifier available within each skill in the rules as a separate 
  'discount'</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>e.g. A Courtier with PB 14 and AG 23 has cost of EP * (0.9) * 
  (1.1) = EP * 0.99, rather than the EP * 1 + (0.1 - 0.1) = EP * 1.00 that I 
  think we all consider correct, and what those drafting each individual skill 
  intended as default.</FONT></P><BR><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Therefore can your proposal be better given as:</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd 
  column p9) are applied to the EP earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>EP cost 
  modifiers within each Skill or other rules section[1] have percentages added 
  together.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>The resulting EP cost modifier percentages 
  from each Skill or other rules section are then multiplied together.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>??</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Mandos's would be </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>Racial modifiers per 
  start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd column p9) are applied to the EP 
  earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>EP cost modifier percentages from '2.2 Race' 
  are multiplied with the result of adding together all other EP cost modifier 
  percentages.</FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>I think we can drop the current languages 50% 'cap' for either 
  proposal.</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>The other alternative would seem to be:</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>Racial modifiers per start of '2.2 Race' (table at top of 3rd column 
  p9) are applied to the EP earned.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>All EP cost modifier 
  percentages are added together, except that [some yet-to-be-determined way of 
  stopping the couple of silly results]</FONT></P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>[1] A 'section' being one of e.g. 27 The College of Witchcraft 
  (Ver 1.1), 28 Skills, 29 Adventuring Skills (Ver 1.0), 30 Alchemist (Ver 1.0) 
  etc.</FONT></P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>The wording I've given can probably be improved, but I think 
  it makes the proposals unambiguous.</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Errol</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [<A 
  href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>]</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 26 April 2005 08:23</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] 
  Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If every discount is multiplied individually, 
  then Mandos' racial</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; proposal happens 
  automatically, and stupid cumulative bonuses are</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  stopped. This is also what a large number of people have been </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; doing for</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; some time. Most people use 
  spreadsheets these days (yes, Wililam is a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; person 
  too).</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Andrew</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original 
  Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [<A 
  href="mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] On 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Behalf Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Mandos 
  Mitchinson</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 25 April 2005 11:07 
  a.m.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; After giving it some more thought I would like to propose the 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; following.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Racial Discounts should be Handled seperatly from 
  all other Discounts</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; and applied first.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; So in the case of the thief 
  the 50% discount applies to the cost then</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the 
  10-60% from skill.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  Seems to be what people are currently doing in some cases and </FONT><BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; it is nice</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; an easy to apply. If 
  people are happy can we get it added to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the 
  Agenda</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; for the next GM's Meeting.</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Mandos</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>&gt; /s</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A 
  href="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> 
  --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


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SubjectRe: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 06:53:14 +1200
> I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%
> discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the
> game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.

The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than
multiplying is for simplicity.

Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for
training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out
25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.

In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are
people out there who don't.

In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet
for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromMartin Dickson
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 08:54:10 +1200
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:

>some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM
>
Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes things just a bit easier 
for the GM to check working.  (The raw to racially adjusted calc is done 
once and then the adj points spent normally, reducing the number of 
adjustments involved).

If the plan is to keep these things as simple as possible then dividing 
raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each use of it.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromIan Hasell
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 09:08:08 +1200
I definitely agree with taking the racial adjustment up front. I have
noticed that many GMs actually apply this to the EP given at the end of
the adventure. Then the ranking is done like any other character, you
just have less EP to spend. 

Ian H 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 8:54 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts

dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:

>some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM
>
Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes things just a bit easier
for the GM to check working.  (The raw to racially adjusted calc is done
once and then the adj points spent normally, reducing the number of
adjustments involved).

If the plan is to keep these things as simple as possible then dividing
raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each use of it.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromErrol Cavit
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 09:15:19 +1200
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 08:54
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> 
> 
> dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> 
> >some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM
> >
> Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes things just a 
> bit easier 
> for the GM to check working.  (The raw to racially adjusted 
> calc is done 
> once and then the adj points spent normally, reducing the number of 
> adjustments involved).
> 
> If the plan is to keep these things as simple as possible 
> then dividing 
> raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each use of it.


This is also what the rules say to do. Besides the fewer calculations
effect, this forces this adjustment percentage to be multiplied with (rather
then added to) other other adjustments (including skill-specific racial
discounts).
From memory, Mandos's character sheet spreadsheets explicitly have the
Racial EM on each amount spent, giving flexibility to easily handle odd
cases were the racial EM doesn't apply to the amount spent (there are
perfectly valid cases of this!)

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 08:54</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;some divide their raw ep by the Racial =
EM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes =
things just a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; bit easier </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for the GM to check working.&nbsp; (The raw to =
racially adjusted </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; calc is done </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; once and then the adj points spent normally, =
reducing the number of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; adjustments involved).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If the plan is to keep these things as simple =
as possible </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; then dividing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each =
use of it.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is also what the rules say to do. Besides the =
fewer calculations effect, this forces this adjustment percentage to be =
multiplied with (rather then added to) other other adjustments =
(including skill-specific racial discounts).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>From memory, Mandos's character sheet spreadsheets =
explicitly have the Racial EM on each amount spent, giving flexibility =
to easily handle odd cases were the racial EM doesn't apply to the =
amount spent (there are perfectly valid cases of this!)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromMichael Parkinson
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 09:36:26 +1200
Actually...

> "All modifiers are cumulative" is a common phrase in DQ rules applying to
> multiple modifiers in a single section. Cumulative means "increasing by
> successive additions".

Error #1.  Not always "successive ADDITIONS" -- The emphasis is NOT on
addition (e.g. you do not simply add cumulative errors), the emphasis is
that the various elements "heap up" or pile up.  Likewise, two "cumulative"
50% discounts by a store flogging off stock does not mean they're giving it
away for free.

Error #2.  There is a long history of DQ manuals, both the originals & our
versions, using words imprecisely.  The poplicy is not to legalistically
quibble on the exact meaning of an ill-used word, but to decide what is
equitable --- what we WANT to happen, what is RIGHT for the rules &
campaign.  Remember we are a multi-GM campaign; therefore we need to have
some uniformity of practice, therefore a clarity not envisioned by the
original rule-writers (even had they been prepared to be more precise, which
is dubious).   We have already changed the write-up from the Ed.2 rules
(e.g., an impression was that the multiplier for certain races for
particular skills was *as specified* rather than the generic multiplier)

If you WANT to add modifiers, then say that is what you want and, better
yet, add cogent reasons why that options is better than simple
multiplication or one of the bastardised versions.


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SubjectRe: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
FromErrol Cavit
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 09:53:14 +1200
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:mandos@allowed.to]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 06:53
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
>=20
>=20
> > I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%
> > discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the
> > game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.
>=20


I expect the issue is not the EP saved or lost, it is the extra element =
in
the calculation being an issue for some.

Before anyone suggests that applying the 'multiply everything' logic
consistently means silly amounts of working-out for the MA discount on =
GK
spells, the rules say:

"If the Adept has MA > 15, (MA - 15) =D7 5% of the EP cost of General =
Spells
may be discounted."


> The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather =
than
> multiplying is for simplicity.
>=20
> Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35%=20
> discount for
> training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out
> 25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.
>=20
> In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care=20
> but there are
> people out there who don't.
>=20
> In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion=20
> uses a spreadsheet
> for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who =
doesn't.
>=20

For these calcs, I effectively use Excel as a calculator (with a =
display
showing method).  I don't have the Skill (or weapon) EP costs in a XL =
table,
I look up the required cost 'on demand', and show any discounts as =
'*0.9'
etc in the formula. I find this gives flexibility for any unusual
circumstances (e.g. one rank without trainer, one rank with, in one =
season's
rankings). I'm confident enough in XL (professional, in fact), that =
this
works for me.

For those not using spreadsheets, I don't think it is unreasonable to =
expect
that they have a calculator available for any calcs they aren't =
comfortable
with doing manually. I imagine the issue then becomes not making any =
entry
errors when doing (and checking) say 2,250ep[1] x 0.9 x 1.1 x 0.9 x =
0.5.
This would be 2,250ep x 0.9 x 0.5 under Mandos's proposal (although =
'halve
and take off one tenth' is something I could scrawl on a piece of paper =
if
so inclined.)

Cheers
Errol

[1] made up amount

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:mandos@allowed.to">mailto:mandos@allowed.to</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 06:53</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I would keep the multiplication even in =
this case, as a 1%</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is =
not going to kill the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; game. look upon it as divine reward for =
having one good stat.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I expect the issue is not the EP saved or lost, it is =
the extra element in the calculation being an issue for some.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Before anyone suggests that applying the 'multiply =
everything' logic consistently means silly amounts of working-out for =
the MA discount on GK spells, the rules say:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;If the Adept has MA &gt; 15, (MA - 15) =D7 5% =
of the EP cost of General Spells may be discounted.&quot;</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The reason I suggest adding most of the =
discounts together rather than</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; multiplying is for simplicity.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and =
then a 35% </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discount for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; training and good stats is for me far easier =
than trying to work out</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 25%*25%*10% in order to apply the =
result.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I =
don't care </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but there are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; people out there who don't.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In fact I note that just about everyone in the =
discussion </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; uses a spreadsheet</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion =
of someone who doesn't.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For these calcs, I effectively use Excel as a =
calculator (with a display showing method).&nbsp; I don't have the =
Skill (or weapon) EP costs in a XL table, I look up the required cost =
'on demand', and show any discounts as '*0.9' etc in the formula. I =
find this gives flexibility for any unusual circumstances (e.g. one =
rank without trainer, one rank with, in one season's rankings). I'm =
confident enough in XL (professional, in fact), that this works for =
me.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For those not using spreadsheets, I don't think it is =
unreasonable to expect that they have a calculator available for any =
calcs they aren't comfortable with doing manually. I imagine the issue =
then becomes not making any entry errors when doing (and checking) say =
2,250ep[1] x 0.9 x 1.1 x 0.9 x 0.5. This would be 2,250ep x 0.9 x 0.5 =
under Mandos's proposal (although 'halve and take off one tenth' is =
something I could scrawl on a piece of paper if so =
inclined.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>[1] made up amount</FONT>
</P>

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Subject[dq] Racial EMs
FromStephen Martin
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 11:25:46 +1200 (NZST)
DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.
We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was applied as a divisor to XP earned as
that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons Martin mentioned.

Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.

May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount discussion as I don't think they are part of
the current problem.  And it saves confusion between EMs and race specific discounts on skills
(E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.


[Cracking open the worm can]
Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were designed as a balance point for a single
GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early benefits in terms of stats and special
abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.
The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so adventures along their career and they keep on
paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed by GMs for various reasons.
And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been given out to humans as a one-off
item/reward for an adventure.

Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can be paid off eventually?
And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.

Cheers, Stephen.

Errol Cavit said:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 08:54
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
>>
>>
>> dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:
>>
>> >some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM
>> >
>> Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes things just a
>> bit easier
>> for the GM to check working.  (The raw to racially adjusted
>> calc is done
>> once and then the adj points spent normally, reducing the number of  adjustments involved).
>>
>> If the plan is to keep these things as simple as possible
>> then dividing
>> raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each use of it.
>
>
> This is also what the rules say to do. Besides the fewer calculations effect, this forces this
> adjustment percentage to be multiplied with (rather then added to) other other adjustments
> (including skill-specific racial discounts).
>>From memory, Mandos's character sheet spreadsheets explicitly have the
> Racial EM on each amount spent, giving flexibility to easily handle odd cases were the racial EM
> doesn't apply to the amount spent (there are perfectly valid cases of this!)
>
> Cheers
> Errol


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SubjectRe: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 11:46:28 +1200

there isn't a huge difference between the two (one sumation versus one multiplication).

it isn't just the simplicity of doing it i am after, it is the simplicity of the rules. ask any taxation lawyer.

Ian


> Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for
> training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out
> 25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.
> 
> In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are
> people out there who don't.
> 
> In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet
> for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
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Subject[dq] Phase out Racial EMs
From
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 22:18:06 +1200
i heartily agree. 


Ian
> 
> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> Date: 2005/04/27 Wed AM 11:25:46 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs
> 
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was applied as a divisor to XP earned as
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons Martin mentioned.
> 
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.
> 
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount discussion as I don't think they are part of
> the current problem.  And it saves confusion between EMs and race specific discounts on skills
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.
> 
> 
> [Cracking open the worm can]
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were designed as a balance point for a single
> GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early benefits in terms of stats and special
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.
> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so adventures along their career and they keep on
> paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed by GMs for various reasons.
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been given out to humans as a one-off
> item/reward for an adventure.
> 
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can be paid off eventually?
> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Errol Cavit said:
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 08:54
> >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >> Subject: Re: [dq] Discounts
> >>
> >>
> >> dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz wrote:
> >>
> >> >some divide their raw ep by the Racial EM
> >> >
> >> Yes, commonly done, and in my experience makes things just a
> >> bit easier
> >> for the GM to check working.  (The raw to racially adjusted
> >> calc is done
> >> once and then the adj points spent normally, reducing the number of  adjustments involved).
> >>
> >> If the plan is to keep these things as simple as possible
> >> then dividing
> >> raw ep once is simpler than multiplying each use of it.
> >
> >
> > This is also what the rules say to do. Besides the fewer calculations effect, this forces this
> > adjustment percentage to be multiplied with (rather then added to) other other adjustments
> > (including skill-specific racial discounts).
> >>From memory, Mandos's character sheet spreadsheets explicitly have the
> > Racial EM on each amount spent, giving flexibility to easily handle odd cases were the racial EM
> > doesn't apply to the amount spent (there are perfectly valid cases of this!)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Errol
> 
> 
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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial EMs
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateWed, 27 Apr 2005 22:56:12 +1200
> [Cracking open the worm can]
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were designed
> as a balance point for a single
> GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early benefits
> in terms of stats and special
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.
> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so adventures
> along their career and they keep on
> paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed by
> GMs for various reasons.
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been
> given out to humans as a one-off
> item/reward for an adventure.
>
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can be
> paid off eventually?
> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.

Just on this topic, since the can is open. I know of one character who when
we converted all his ranking into an electronic spreadsheet it showed that
being a non-human had cost the character over 300,000ep.

This is probably the really extreme end of the scale but it does show the
scope of the issue.

Mandos
/s


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