| Subject | Re: [dq] Racial EMs |
|---|---|
| From | Errol Cavit |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:21:06 +1200 |
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C54B6F.05F91470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] > Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] Racial EMs > > > DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs. > We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was > applied as a divisor to XP earned as > that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons > Martin mentioned. > > Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is. > > May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount > discussion as I don't think they are part of > the current problem. And it saves confusion between EMs and > race specific discounts on skills > (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant. Agree with this. > > > [Cracking open the worm can] > Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were > designed as a balance point for a single > GM game of limited duration. Non-humans get some early > benefits in terms of stats and special > abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time. Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing. > The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so > adventures along their career and they keep on > paying. But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed > by GMs for various reasons. > And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been > given out to humans as a one-off > item/reward for an adventure. > > Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can > be paid off eventually? Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or some other method? An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified abilities, and remove the EMs > And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities. > > Cheers, Stephen. > <snip> Cheers Errol ------_=_NextPart_001_01C54B6F.05F91470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Racial EMs</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <BR> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Stephen Martin [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po= intclark.net</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple = to EP costs.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> We changed that early on in our rules changes = to say it was </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> applied as a divisor to XP earned as</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> that was what most people did anyway for all = the good reasons </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Martin mentioned.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule = is.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the = Discount </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> discussion as I don't think they are part = of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the current problem. And it saves = confusion between EMs and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> race specific discounts on skills</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling = Thieves...) which are relevant.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agree with this.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> [Cracking open the worm can]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that = they were </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> designed as a balance point for a single</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> GM game of limited duration. Non-humans = get some early </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> benefits in terms of stats and special</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay = for them over time.</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to = 'medium' very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that = needs addressing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or = so </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> adventures along their career and they keep = on</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> paying. But not all of them, some have = had their EMs removed </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> by GMs for various reasons.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> And many of the special abilities of the = non-humans have been </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> given out to humans as a one-off</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> item/reward for an adventure.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp = value that can </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> be paid off eventually?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' = extra EP via the EM? Or some other method?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each = race's modified abilities, and remove the EMs</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out = these abilities.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Cheers, Stephen.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><snip></FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C54B6F.05F91470-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Discounts |
|---|---|
| From | Jacqui Smith |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:48:23 +1200 |
--=====================_62853740==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From Helen Saggers: >Jacqui you said you would forward stuff to the list for me. Thanks > >I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. >Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most >of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap >paper. >Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out >10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever. > >To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial >multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) >rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values. > >Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that >where some characters get more than one discount players have been using >several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids >100% discounts. > >As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off >by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as >there is no current agreed method. > >I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from >the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc >discounts where there are more than one. >We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application >that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the >players. They can't balk at that. > >If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for >error more working for the poor Gm to check. >While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have >always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration >to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view. >Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit >more playing time. > >As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the >working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do >it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use >spread sheets will find room to show working. > >Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with >a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending >time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don't have >even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread >sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers. > >Helen > >-----Original Message----- >Mandos Mitchinson > >Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts > > > I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1% > > discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the > > game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat. > >The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than >multiplying is for simplicity. > >Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for >training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out >25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result. > >In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are >people out there who don't. > >In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet >for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't. > >Mandos >/s > > > --=====================_62853740==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> <body> From Helen Saggers:<br><br> <br> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="Courier New, Courier">Jacqui you said you would forward stuff to the list for me. Thanks<br> </font><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2 color="#0000FF"> <br> </font><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. <br> Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap paper. <br> Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.<br> <br> To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.<br> <br> Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that where some characters get more than one discount players have been using several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 100% discounts.<br> <br> As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as there is no current agreed method.<br> <br> I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc discounts where there are more than one. <br> We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the players. They can't balk at that.<br> <br> If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for error more working for the poor Gm to check.<br> While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view. <br> Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit more playing time.<br> <br> As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use spread sheets will find room to show working.<br> <br> Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.<br> <br> Helen<br> <br> -----Original Message-----<br> Mandos Mitchinson<br><br> Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts<br> <br> > I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%<br> > discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the<br> > game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.<br> <br> The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than<br> multiplying is for simplicity.<br> <br> Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for<br> training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out<br> 25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.<br> <br> In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are<br> people out there who don't.<br> <br> In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet<br> for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.<br> <br> Mandos<br> /s<br> <br> <br> </font></blockquote></body> </html> --=====================_62853740==.ALT-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Racial EMs |
|---|---|
| From | RMansfield@ingnz.com |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:10:02 +1200 |
This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 007F42BDCC256FF0_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
When we reviewed Character Generation a number of years ago we did a
serious look at removing Racial EMs, including the idea of 'evening out'
the racial differences.
A number of approaches were investigated and most LOATHED was the 'evening
out' starting characters.
We considered one of the strengths of the game was the different races
being quite different.
We reviewed the EM structure and the concept of having a specific EP debt
for your race was rejected. Even at high levels no player wants a vanilia
human character - we go to some lengths to get weird (warped : - )
abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from Gods; and willingly pay the price.
IMO
Nothing in the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial
discounts are broken and need fixing.
Rosemary
Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz
28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.
Please respond to dq
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc: (bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial EMs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs
>
>
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons
> Martin mentioned.
>
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.
>
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount
> discussion as I don't think they are part of
> the current problem. And it saves confusion between EMs and
> race specific discounts on skills
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.
Agree with this.
>
>
> [Cracking open the worm can]
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were
> designed as a balance point for a single
> GM game of limited duration. Non-humans get some early
> benefits in terms of stats and special
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.
Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly,
then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.
> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so
> adventures along their career and they keep on
> paying. But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed
> by GMs for various reasons.
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been
> given out to humans as a one-off
> item/reward for an adventure.
>
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can
> be paid off eventually?
Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or
some other method?
An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified
abilities, and remove the EMs
> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
<snip>
Cheers
Errol
--=_alternative 007F42BDCC256FF0_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When we reviewed Character Generation
a number of years ago we did a serious look at removing Racial EMs, including
the idea of 'evening out' the racial differences. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A number of approaches were investigated
and most LOATHED was the 'evening out' starting characters. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We considered one of the strengths of
the game was the different races being quite different.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We reviewed the EM structure and the
concept of having a specific EP debt for your race was rejected. Even
at high levels no player wants a vanilia human character - we go to some
lengths to get weird (warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from
Gods; and willingly pay the price.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">IMO </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Nothing in the recent emails has made
me think that Racial EMs / or racial discounts are broken and need fixing.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz></b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to dq</font>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial"> </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> To:
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> cc:
(bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif"> Subject:
Re: [dq] Racial EMs</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font>
<p><font size=2>> -----Original Message-----</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> From: Stephen Martin [</font><a href=mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net><font size=2 color=blue><u>mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</u></font></a><font size=2>]</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was <br>
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons <br>
> Martin mentioned.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount <br>
> discussion as I don't think they are part of</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> the current problem. And it saves confusion between EMs and
<br>
> race specific discounts on skills</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p>
<p><font size=2>Agree with this.</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>> <br>
> <br>
> [Cracking open the worm can]</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were <br>
> designed as a balance point for a single</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> GM game of limited duration. Non-humans get some early <br>
> benefits in terms of stats and special</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p><font size=2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium'
very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.</font>
<p><font size=2>> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so
<br>
> adventures along their career and they keep on</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
> paying. But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed
<br>
> by GMs for various reasons.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been <br>
> given out to humans as a one-off</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> item/reward for an adventure.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can <br>
> be paid off eventually?</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra
EP via the EM? Or some other method?</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's
modified abilities, and remove the EMs</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<p><font size=2>> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these
abilities.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
> Cheers, Stephen.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
> <br>
<snip></font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>Cheers</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
Errol</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
--=_alternative 007F42BDCC256FF0_=--
-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
| |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Discounts |
|---|---|
| From | RMansfield@ingnz.com |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:21:33 +1200 |
This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0080509ECC256FF0_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" For those comparing methods I use a spreadsheet and have a standard formula (Ability EP cost) * (discount for trainer or MA) * (special discounts - racial, adventure reward, etc) Regards, Rosemary --=_alternative 0080509ECC256FF0_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For those comparing methods I use a spreadsheet and have a standard formula </font> <br> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">(Ability EP cost) * (discount for trainer or MA) * (special discounts - racial, adventure reward, etc)</font> <br> <br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br> Rosemary<br> </font> <br> --=_alternative 0080509ECC256FF0_=-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Racial EMs |
|---|---|
| From | Errol Cavit |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:24:23 +1200 |
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C54B88.A100D930
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
-----Original Message-----
From: RMansfield@ingnz.com [mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]
Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2005 11:10
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial EMs
When we reviewed Character Generation a number of years ago we did a serious
look at removing Racial EMs, including the idea of 'evening out' the racial
differences.
A number of approaches were investigated and most LOATHED was the 'evening
out' starting characters.
We considered one of the strengths of the game was the different races being
quite different.
By 'evening out', I mean having a package of bonuses and disadvantages (when
compared to the baseline) with approximately the same total perceived
'value' for each race, and therefore no need to have any EMs. So the races
stay quite different, with stereotypes encouraged for instance. They would
lose only the difference of non-humans taking more adventures to gain ranks
and abilities, and presumably gain whatever + and - differences we add to
even out.
We reviewed the EM structure and the concept of having a specific EP debt
for your race was rejected. Even at high levels no player wants a vanilia
human character -
I'm not sure I understand how this EP debt concept would work. Could you
please set out your memory of the proposal(s) rejected.
An alternative method that occurred to me (and which may have been
considered and rejected), would be to say that your EM only applies to the
first say 300,000ep spent. This is obviously not a perfect approach.
we go to some lengths to get weird (warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts,
favours from Gods; and willingly pay the price.
IMO
Nothing in the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial
discounts are broken and need fixing.
Rosemary
Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz
28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.
Please respond to dq
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc: (bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial EMs
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [ <mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs
>
>
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons
> Martin mentioned.
>
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.
>
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount
> discussion as I don't think they are part of
> the current problem. And it saves confusion between EMs and
> race specific discounts on skills
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.
Agree with this.
>
>
> [Cracking open the worm can]
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were
> designed as a balance point for a single
> GM game of limited duration. Non-humans get some early
> benefits in terms of stats and special
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.
Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly,
then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.
> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so
> adventures along their career and they keep on
> paying. But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed
> by GMs for various reasons.
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been
> given out to humans as a one-off
> item/reward for an adventure.
>
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can
> be paid off eventually?
Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or
some other method?
An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified
abilities, and remove the EMs
> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
<snip>
Cheers
Errol
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
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<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> RMansfield@ingnz.com
[mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 28 April 2005
11:10<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Racial
EMs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>When we reviewed Character Generation a
number of years ago we did a serious look at removing Racial EMs, including
the idea of 'evening out' the racial differences. </FONT> <BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>A number of approaches were investigated and most
LOATHED was the 'evening out' starting characters. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>We considered one of the strengths of the game was the
different races being quite different.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=197412123-27042005><FONT
color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=197412123-27042005>By
'evening out', I mean having a package of bonuses and disadvantages (when
compared to the baseline) with approximately the same total perceived 'value'
for each race, and therefore no need to have any EMs. So the races stay quite
different, with stereotypes encouraged for instance. They would lose only the
difference of non-humans taking more adventures to gain ranks and abilities, and
presumably gain whatever + and - differences we add to even
out.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005> </SPAN>We reviewed the EM structure and the
concept of having a specific EP debt for your race was rejected. Even at
high levels no player wants a vanilia human character - <SPAN
class=197412123-27042005><FONT
color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005>I'm not sure I understand how this EP debt concept
would work. Could you please set out your memory of the proposal(s)
rejected.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT
face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005>An alternative method that occurred to me (and
which may have been considered and rejected), would be to say that your EM only
applies to the first say 300,000ep spent. This is obviously not a perfect
approach.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN
class=197412123-27042005> </SPAN>we go to some lengths to get weird
(warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from Gods; and willingly pay
the price.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <SPAN class=197412123-27042005><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=2>IMO </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Nothing in
the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial discounts are
broken and need fixing.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=2>Rosemary</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
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<TD>
<TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Errol Cavit
<tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz></B></FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1>Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond to dq</FONT> </P>
<TD><FONT face=Arial size=1> </FONT><BR><FONT
face=sans-serif size=1> To:
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1> cc: (bcc:
Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif
size=1> Subject:
Re: [dq] Racial EMs</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT
size=3><BR></FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> From: Stephen Martin [</FONT><A
href="mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net"><FONT color=blue
size=2><U>mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</U></FONT></A><FONT
size=2>]</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> Sent: Wednesday, 27
April 2005 11:26</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> To:
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> Subject: [dq]
Racial EMs</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> We changed that early on in our rules
changes to say it was <BR>> applied as a divisor to XP earned
as</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> that was what most people
did anyway for all the good reasons <BR>> Martin mentioned.</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> <BR>> Hence the probable confusion
over what the rule is.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>>
<BR>> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount <BR>>
discussion as I don't think they are part of</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT
size=2><BR>> the current problem. And it saves confusion between EMs
and <BR>> race specific discounts on skills</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...)
which are relevant.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P>
<P><FONT size=2>Agree with this.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>> <BR>> <BR>> [Cracking open the worm
can]</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> Of course the problem
with Racial EMs is that they were <BR>> designed as a balance point for a
single</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> GM game of limited
duration. Non-humans get some early <BR>> benefits in terms of stats
and special</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> abilities and a
few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium'
very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs
addressing.</FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so
<BR>> adventures along their career and they keep on</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> paying. But not all of them, some have had
their EMs removed <BR>> by GMs for various reasons.</FONT><FONT size=3>
</FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> And many of the special abilities of the
non-humans have been <BR>> given out to humans as a one-off</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> item/reward for an adventure.</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> <BR>> Shouldn't the racial abilities
be given an xp value that can <BR>> be paid off eventually?</FONT><FONT
size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP
via the EM? Or some other method?</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's
modified abilities, and remove the EMs</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P>
<P><FONT size=2>> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these
abilities.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>> <BR>> Cheers,
Stephen.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>>
<BR><snip></FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
<P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT
size=2><BR>Errol</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
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| Subject | Re: [dq] Discounts |
|---|---|
| From | Bernard Hoggins |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:22:04 +1000 (EST) |
--0-189437061-1114651324=:5896 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From Helen Saggers: I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap paper. Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever. To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values. Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that where some characters get more than one discount players have been using several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 100% discounts. As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as there is no current agreed method. I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc discounts where there are more than one. We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the players. They can't balk at that. If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for error more working for the poor Gm to check. While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view. Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit more playing time. As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use spread sheets will find room to show working. Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers. Helen -----Original Message----- Mandos Mitchinson Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts > I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1% > discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the > game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat. The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than multiplying is for simplicity. Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out 25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result. In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are people out there who don't. In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't. Mandos /s From Bernard Hoggins nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. --0-189437061-1114651324=:5896 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">From Helen Saggers:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. <BR>Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap paper. <BR>Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.<BR> <BR>To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.<BR> <BR>Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that where some characters get more than one discount players have been using several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 100% discounts.<BR> <BR>As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as there is no current agreed method.<BR> <BR>I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc discounts where there are more than one. <BR>We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the players. They can't balk at that.<BR> <BR>If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for error more working for the poor Gm to check.<BR>While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view. <BR>Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit more playing time.<BR> <BR>As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use spread sheets will find room to show working.<BR> <BR>Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.<BR> <BR>Helen<BR> <BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>Mandos Mitchinson<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts<BR> <BR>> I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%<BR>> discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the<BR>> game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.<BR> <BR>The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than<BR>multiplying is for simplicity.<BR> <BR>Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for<BR>training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out<BR>25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.<BR> <BR>In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are<BR>people out there who don't.<BR> <BR>In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet<BR>for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.<BR> <BR>Mandos<BR>/s</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p><br><hr size=1> Find local movie times and trailers on <a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com" target=_blank><b>Yahoo! Movies.</b></a><br> --0-189437061-1114651324=:5896-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Discounts |
|---|---|
| From | Michael Woodhams |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:26:08 +1200 |
I used to do my ranking by hand and calculator, so if I return to Auckland I'd prefer keeping additive rather than multiplicative modifiers. The simplest fix is just to add a rule that EP modifiers never reduce the cost of something below 20% (or 25% or whatever) of base. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | [dq] Apprentice position |
|---|---|
| From | Michael Woodhams |
| Date | Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:30:59 +1200 |
While I'm haunting the DQ list, Anathea has been away from adventuring long enough to have trained an apprentice. This apprentice could become a PC. If anyone is interested, contact me. Michael W. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |