SubjectRe: [dq] Racial EMs
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 09:21:06 +1200
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs
> 
> 
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was 
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons 
> Martin mentioned.
> 
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.
> 
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount 
> discussion as I don't think they are part of
> the current problem.  And it saves confusion between EMs and 
> race specific discounts on skills
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.


Agree with this.

> 
> 
> [Cracking open the worm can]
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were 
> designed as a balance point for a single
> GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early 
> benefits in terms of stats and special
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.

Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly,
then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.

> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so 
> adventures along their career and they keep on
> paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed 
> by GMs for various reasons.
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been 
> given out to humans as a one-off
> item/reward for an adventure.
> 
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can 
> be paid off eventually?

Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or
some other method?

An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified
abilities, and remove the EMs


> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
<snip>

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Stephen Martin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po=
intclark.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Racial EMs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple =
to EP costs.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; We changed that early on in our rules changes =
to say it was </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; applied as a divisor to XP earned as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that was what most people did anyway for all =
the good reasons </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Martin mentioned.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hence the probable confusion over what the rule =
is.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the =
Discount </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discussion as I don't think they are part =
of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the current problem.&nbsp; And it saves =
confusion between EMs and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; race specific discounts on skills</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling =
Thieves...) which are relevant.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agree with this.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; [Cracking open the worm can]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that =
they were </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; designed as a balance point for a single</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM game of limited duration.&nbsp; Non-humans =
get some early </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; benefits in terms of stats and special</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay =
for them over time.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to =
'medium' very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that =
needs addressing.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or =
so </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; adventures along their career and they keep =
on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; paying.&nbsp; But not all of them, some have =
had their EMs removed </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; by GMs for various reasons.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And many of the special abilities of the =
non-humans have been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; given out to humans as a one-off</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; item/reward for an adventure.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp =
value that can </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; be paid off eventually?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' =
extra EP via the EM? Or some other method?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each =
race's modified abilities, and remove the EMs</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And also used as a guide for GMs who give out =
these abilities.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromJacqui Smith
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 10:48:23 +1200
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 From Helen Saggers:


>Jacqui you said you would forward stuff to the list for me. Thanks
>
>I don't use a spread sheet for ranking.
>Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most 
>of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap 
>paper.
>Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 
>10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.
>
>To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial 
>multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) 
>rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.
>
>Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that 
>where some characters get more than one discount players have been using 
>several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 
>100% discounts.
>
>As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off 
>by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as 
>there is no current agreed method.
>
>I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from 
>the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc 
>discounts where there are more than one.
>We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application 
>that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the 
>players. They can't balk at that.
>
>If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for 
>error more working for the poor Gm to check.
>While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have 
>always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration 
>to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view.
>Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit 
>more playing time.
>
>As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the 
>working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do 
>it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use 
>spread sheets will find room to show working.
>
>Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with 
>a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending 
>time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don't have 
>even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread 
>sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.
>
>Helen
>
>-----Original Message-----
>Mandos Mitchinson
>
>Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
>
> > I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%
> > discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the
> > game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.
>
>The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than
>multiplying is for simplicity.
>
>Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for
>training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out
>25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.
>
>In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are
>people out there who don't.
>
>In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet
>for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.
>
>Mandos
>/s
>
>
>

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<body>
 From Helen Saggers:<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font face="Courier New, Courier">Jacqui
you said you would forward stuff to the list for me. Thanks<br>
</font><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2 color="#0000FF">&nbsp;<br>
</font><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>I don't use a spread
sheet for ranking. <br>
Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do
most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on
scrap paper. <br>
Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out
10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial
multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking)
rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that
where some characters get more than one discount players have been using
several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids
100% discounts.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed
off by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved
one, as there is no current agreed method.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts
from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc
discounts where there are more than one. <br>
We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application
that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the
players. They can't balk at that.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for
error more working for the poor Gm to check.<br>
While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I
have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of
consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view.&nbsp;
<br>
Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit
more playing time.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the
working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who
do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who
use spread sheets will find room to show working.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with
a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending
time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have
even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread
sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Helen<br>
&nbsp;<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
Mandos Mitchinson<br><br>
Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%<br>
&gt; discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill
the<br>
&gt; game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather
than<br>
multiplying is for simplicity.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount
for<br>
training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work 
out<br>
25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there
are<br>
people out there who don't.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a
spreadsheet<br>
for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who
doesn't.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Mandos<br>
/s<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;</font></blockquote></body>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial EMs
FromRMansfield@ingnz.com
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 11:10:02 +1200
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When we reviewed Character Generation a number of years ago we did a 
serious look at removing Racial EMs, including the idea of 'evening out' 
the racial differences. 

A number of approaches were investigated and most LOATHED was the 'evening 
out' starting characters. 

We considered one of the strengths of the game was the different races 
being quite different.

We reviewed the EM structure and the concept of having a specific EP debt 
for your race was rejected.  Even at high levels no player wants a vanilia 
human character - we go to some lengths to get weird (warped : - ) 
abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from Gods; and willingly pay the price.

IMO 
Nothing in the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial 
discounts are broken and need fixing.
Rosemary






Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz>
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz
28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.
Please respond to dq
 
        To:     dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        cc:     (bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)
        Subject:        Re: [dq] Racial EMs




> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26 
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs 
> 
> 
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs. 
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was 
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as 
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons 
> Martin mentioned. 
> 
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is. 
> 
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount 
> discussion as I don't think they are part of 
> the current problem.  And it saves confusion between EMs and 
> race specific discounts on skills 
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant. 

Agree with this. 
> 
> 
> [Cracking open the worm can] 
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were 
> designed as a balance point for a single 
> GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early 
> benefits in terms of stats and special 
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time. 
Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly, 
then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.
> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so 
> adventures along their career and they keep on 
> paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed 
> by GMs for various reasons. 
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been 
> given out to humans as a one-off 
> item/reward for an adventure. 
> 
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can 
> be paid off eventually? 
Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or 
some other method? 
An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified 
abilities, and remove the EMs 

> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities. 
> 
> Cheers, Stephen. 
> 
<snip> 
Cheers 
Errol 

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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When we reviewed Character Generation
a number of years ago we did a serious look at removing Racial EMs, including
the idea of 'evening out' the racial differences. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A number of approaches were investigated
and most LOATHED was the 'evening out' starting characters. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We considered one of the strengths of
the game was the different races being quite different.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We reviewed the EM structure and the
concept of having a specific EP debt for your race was rejected. &nbsp;Even
at high levels no player wants a vanilia human character - we go to some
lengths to get weird (warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from
Gods; and willingly pay the price.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">IMO </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Nothing in the recent emails has made
me think that Racial EMs / or racial discounts are broken and need fixing.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Errol Cavit &lt;tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to dq</font>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject:
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: [dq] Racial EMs</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3><br>
</font>
<p><font size=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; From: Stephen Martin [</font><a href=mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net><font size=2 color=blue><u>mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</u></font></a><font size=2>]</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; Subject: [dq] Racial EMs</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
&gt; We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was <br>
&gt; applied as a divisor to XP earned as</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons <br>
&gt; Martin mentioned.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount <br>
&gt; discussion as I don't think they are part of</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; the current problem. &nbsp;And it saves confusion between EMs and
<br>
&gt; race specific discounts on skills</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant.</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p>
<p><font size=2>Agree with this.</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; [Cracking open the worm can]</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were <br>
&gt; designed as a balance point for a single</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; GM game of limited duration. &nbsp;Non-humans get some early <br>
&gt; benefits in terms of stats and special</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p><font size=2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium'
very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing.</font>
<p><font size=2>&gt; The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so
<br>
&gt; adventures along their career and they keep on</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=2><br>
&gt; paying. &nbsp;But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed
<br>
&gt; by GMs for various reasons.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been <br>
&gt; given out to humans as a one-off</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; item/reward for an adventure.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can <br>
&gt; be paid off eventually?</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra
EP via the EM? Or some other method?</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's
modified abilities, and remove the EMs</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<p><font size=2>&gt; And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these
abilities.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers, Stephen.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
&gt; <br>
&lt;snip&gt;</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=2>Cheers</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
Errol</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromRMansfield@ingnz.com
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 11:21:33 +1200
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For those comparing methods I use a spreadsheet and have a standard 
formula 

(Ability EP cost) * (discount for trainer or MA) * (special discounts - 
racial, adventure reward, etc)

Regards,
Rosemary


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For those comparing methods I use a
spreadsheet and have a standard formula </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">(Ability EP cost) * (discount for trainer
or MA) * (special discounts - racial, adventure reward, etc)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
<br>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial EMs
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 12:24:23 +1200
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-----Original Message-----
From: RMansfield@ingnz.com [mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]
Sent: Thursday, 28 April 2005 11:10
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial EMs



When we reviewed Character Generation a number of years ago we did a serious
look at removing Racial EMs, including the idea of 'evening out' the racial
differences.   

A number of approaches were investigated and most LOATHED was the 'evening
out' starting characters. 

We considered one of the strengths of the game was the different races being
quite different. 

 

By 'evening out', I mean having a package of bonuses and disadvantages (when
compared to the baseline) with approximately the same total perceived
'value' for each race, and therefore no need to have any EMs. So the races
stay quite different, with stereotypes encouraged for instance. They would
lose only the difference of non-humans taking more adventures to gain ranks
and abilities, and presumably gain whatever + and - differences we add to
even out.

 
 We reviewed the EM structure and the concept of having a specific EP debt
for your race was rejected.  Even at high levels no player wants a vanilia
human character -  

I'm not sure I understand how this EP debt concept would work. Could you
please set out your memory of the proposal(s) rejected.
 
An alternative method that occurred to me (and which may have been
considered and rejected), would be to say that your EM only applies to the
first say 300,000ep spent. This is obviously not a perfect approach.

 
 
 we go to some lengths to get weird (warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts,
favours from Gods; and willingly pay the price.  


IMO 
Nothing in the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial
discounts are broken and need fixing. 
Rosemary 






	Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> 
Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz 


28/04/2005 09:21 a.m. 
Please respond to dq 

        
        To:        dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
        cc:        (bcc: Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ) 
        Subject:        Re: [dq] Racial EMs






> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Stephen Martin [  <mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 27 April 2005 11:26 
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> Subject: [dq] Racial EMs 
> 
> 
> DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs. 
> We changed that early on in our rules changes to say it was 
> applied as a divisor to XP earned as 
> that was what most people did anyway for all the good reasons 
> Martin mentioned. 
> 
> Hence the probable confusion over what the rule is. 
> 
> May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount 
> discussion as I don't think they are part of 
> the current problem.  And it saves confusion between EMs and 
> race specific discounts on skills 
> (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) which are relevant. 



Agree with this. 


> 
> 
> [Cracking open the worm can] 
> Of course the problem with Racial EMs is that they were 
> designed as a balance point for a single 
> GM game of limited duration.  Non-humans get some early 
> benefits in terms of stats and special 
> abilities and a few XP discounts and they pay for them over time. 


Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' very quickly,
then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs addressing. 


> The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so 
> adventures along their career and they keep on 
> paying.  But not all of them, some have had their EMs removed 
> by GMs for various reasons. 
> And many of the special abilities of the non-humans have been 
> given out to humans as a one-off 
> item/reward for an adventure. 
> 
> Shouldn't the racial abilities be given an xp value that can 
> be paid off eventually? 


Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP via the EM? Or
some other method? 


An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's modified
abilities, and remove the EMs 



> And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these abilities. 
> 
> Cheers, Stephen. 
> 
<snip> 


Cheers 
Errol 





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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> RMansfield@ingnz.com 
  [mailto:RMansfield@ingnz.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 28 April 2005 
  11:10<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Racial 
  EMs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>When we reviewed Character Generation a 
  number of years ago we did a serious look at removing Racial EMs, including 
  the idea of 'evening out' the racial differences. &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>A number of approaches were investigated and most 
  LOATHED was the 'evening out' starting characters. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>We considered one of the strengths of the game was the 
  different races being quite different.</FONT>&nbsp;<BR><BR><FONT 
  face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=197412123-27042005><FONT 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=197412123-27042005>By 
'evening out', I mean having a package of bonuses and disadvantages (when 
compared to the baseline) with approximately the same total perceived 'value' 
for each race, and therefore no need to have any EMs. So the races stay quite 
different, with stereotypes encouraged for instance. They would lose only the 
difference of non-humans taking more adventures to gain ranks and abilities, and 
presumably gain whatever + and - differences we add to even 
out.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005>&nbsp;</SPAN>We reviewed the EM structure and the 
  concept of having a specific EP debt for your race was rejected. &nbsp;Even at 
  high levels no player wants a vanilia human character -&nbsp;<SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005><FONT 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=197412123-27042005>I'm not sure I understand how this EP debt concept 
would work. Could you please set out your memory of the proposal(s) 
rejected.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT><FONT 
face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=197412123-27042005>An alternative&nbsp;method that occurred to me (and 
which may have been considered and rejected), would be to say that your EM only 
applies to the first say 300,000ep spent. This is obviously not a perfect 
approach.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=197412123-27042005>&nbsp;</SPAN>we go to some lengths to get weird 
  (warped : - ) abilities - wishes, pacts, favours from Gods; and willingly pay 
  the price.</FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;<SPAN class=197412123-27042005><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>IMO </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Nothing in 
  the recent emails has made me think that Racial EMs / or racial discounts are 
  broken and need fixing.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>Rosemary</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Errol Cavit 
        &lt;tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>Sent by: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>28/04/2005 09:21 a.m.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>Please respond to dq</FONT> </P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(bcc: 
        Rosemary Mansfield/AJNzl/NZ)</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;Re: [dq] Racial EMs</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT 
  size=3><BR></FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT><FONT size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; From: Stephen Martin [</FONT><A 
  href="mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net"><FONT color=blue 
  size=2><U>mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</U></FONT></A><FONT 
  size=2>]</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 27 
  April 2005 11:26</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; To: 
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; Subject: [dq] 
  Racial EMs</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 
  DQ2 rules stated EMs were applied as a multiple to EP costs.</FONT><FONT 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; We changed that early on in our rules 
  changes to say it was <BR>&gt; applied as a divisor to XP earned 
  as</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; that was what most people 
  did anyway for all the good reasons <BR>&gt; Martin mentioned.</FONT><FONT 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Hence the probable confusion 
  over what the rule is.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; 
  <BR>&gt; May I suggest that we drop the EMs from the Discount <BR>&gt; 
  discussion as I don't think they are part of</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  size=2><BR>&gt; the current problem. &nbsp;And it saves confusion between EMs 
  and <BR>&gt; race specific discounts on skills</FONT><FONT size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; (E.g. Elven Ranger/Healers, Halfling Thieves...) 
  which are relevant.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Agree with this.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; [Cracking open the worm 
  can]</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; Of course the problem 
  with Racial EMs is that they were <BR>&gt; designed as a balance point for a 
  single</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; GM game of limited 
  duration. &nbsp;Non-humans get some early <BR>&gt; benefits in terms of stats 
  and special</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; abilities and a 
  few XP discounts and they pay for them over time.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>Yep. I've also heard people say that Giants get to 'medium' 
  very quickly, then stall. Not sure if this is something that needs 
  addressing.</FONT> 
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; The problem is that the balance is reached 20 or so 
  <BR>&gt; adventures along their career and they keep on</FONT><FONT size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; paying. &nbsp;But not all of them, some have had 
  their EMs removed <BR>&gt; by GMs for various reasons.</FONT><FONT size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; And many of the special abilities of the 
  non-humans have been <BR>&gt; given out to humans as a one-off</FONT><FONT 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; item/reward for an adventure.</FONT><FONT 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Shouldn't the racial abilities 
  be given an xp value that can <BR>&gt; be paid off eventually?</FONT><FONT 
  size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>Do you mean paid off automatically as they 'spend' extra EP 
  via the EM? Or some other method?</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>An alternative approach would be you 'even out' each race's 
  modified abilities, and remove the EMs</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P>
  <P><FONT size=2>&gt; And also used as a guide for GMs who give out these 
  abilities.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Cheers, 
  Stephen.</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT size=2><BR>&gt; 
  <BR>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  size=2><BR>Errol</FONT><FONT size=3> </FONT>
  <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromBernard Hoggins
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 11:22:04 +1000 (EST)
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From Helen Saggers:

I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. 
Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap paper. 
Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.
 
To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.
 
Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that where some characters get more than one discount players have been using several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 100% discounts.
 
As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off by a GM the method used by the player at the time was an approved one, as there is no current agreed method.
 
I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc discounts where there are more than one. 
We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the players. They can't balk at that.
 
If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for error more working for the poor Gm to check.
While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view.  
Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit more playing time.
 
As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the working, promotes a simpler easy to follow ranking sheet from those who do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use spread sheets will find room to show working.
 
Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.
 
Helen
 
-----Original Message-----
Mandos Mitchinson

Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts
 
> I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%
> discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the
> game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.
 
The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than
multiplying is for simplicity.
 
Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for
training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out
25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.
 
In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are
people out there who don't.
 
In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet
for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.
 
Mandos
/s


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk


---------------------------------
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<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">From Helen Saggers:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>I don't use a spread sheet for ranking. <BR>Very occasionally I use a calculator to add up my ep totals, but I do most of the math including spell multipliers, discounts etc in my head/on scrap paper. <BR>Since most discounts are 5%, 10%, 25% I find it fairly easy to work out 10% of 1650 (165) or 25% of 500 (125) or whatever.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>To keep things simple I have always divided my raw ep by the racial multiplier (it's usually the only time I use a calculator while ranking) rather than Multiply 5 - 15+ separate ep values.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Mandos's extreme example of multiple discounts has just high lighted that where some characters get more than one discount players have been using several methods, and we really should have a standard method that avoids 100% discounts.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>As for previous rankings, since ranking sheets should have been signed off by a GM the method used by the player at the
 time was an approved one, as there is no current agreed method.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I Personally Id be in favor of as Mandos says, spilt racial discounts from the other discounts and apply separately, adding trainer, stat etc discounts where there are more than one. <BR>We avoid that nasty 100% discount, we have a firm method of application that is simple and clear, has a logical division, and mostly favors the players. They can't balk at that.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>If one has to apply all separately its just more calcs, more room for error more working for the poor Gm to check.<BR>While as a Player its just a few mins more work on ranking day, and I have always tried to keep my sheet lay out easy to follow out of consideration to everyone with the poor GM having 7 sheets to view.&nbsp; <BR>Fewer calculations make doing so easier, gaining us just that little bit more playing time.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>As a GM myself I like the Idea of just two calcs, simpler to follow the working, promotes a simpler easy
 to follow ranking sheet from those who do it by hand (its not just me there are others) and maybe even those who use spread sheets will find room to show working.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Personally I'm sick of being handed a computer printed ranking sheet with a list of spells, ranks, time, final ep costs, and totals; and spending time trying to work out how they got to those figures, as they don’t have even so much as a MA discount listed, with a player who uses a spread sheet and doesn't know how the computer got those numbers.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Helen<BR>&nbsp;<BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>Mandos Mitchinson<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [dq] 0.9 x 1.1 Discounts<BR>&nbsp;<BR>&gt; I would keep the multiplication even in this case, as a 1%<BR>&gt; discount (ie 10 ep in every 1000 spent) is not going to kill the<BR>&gt; game. look upon it as divine reward for having one good stat.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>The reason I suggest adding most of the discounts together rather than<BR>multiplying is for
 simplicity.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Working out a 25% discount for racial stuff and then a 35% discount for<BR>training and good stats is for me far easier than trying to work out<BR>25%*25%*10% in order to apply the result.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>In the end I use a spreadsheet for ranking so I don't care but there are<BR>people out there who don't.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>In fact I note that just about everyone in the discussion uses a spreadsheet<BR>for the calcs. It might pay to get the opinion of someone who doesn't.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Mandos<BR>/s</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p><br><hr size=1>
Find local movie times and trailers on <a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com" target=_blank><b>Yahoo! Movies.</b></a><br>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Discounts
FromMichael Woodhams
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 14:26:08 +1200
I used to do my ranking by hand and calculator, so if I return to
Auckland I'd prefer keeping additive rather than multiplicative
modifiers.

The simplest fix is just to add a rule that EP modifiers never reduce
the cost of something below 20% (or 25% or whatever) of base.

Michael W.


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Subject[dq] Apprentice position
FromMichael Woodhams
DateThu, 28 Apr 2005 14:30:59 +1200
While I'm haunting the DQ list, Anathea has been away from adventuring
long enough to have trained an apprentice. This apprentice could become
a PC. If anyone is interested, contact me.

Michael W.


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