I have managed to misplace all the new thief info
including where to download it. Might just be too much
work draining the intellect.

can anyone point me in the right direction?

"The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them."


		
____________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Sports 
Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football 
http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com


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Much of this stuff is available at http://www.dragonquest.org.nz

Including http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/files/discussion/thief2.03.rtf

TTFN, Struan.

On 7/6/05, Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have managed to misplace all the new thief info
> including where to download it. Might just be too much
> work draining the intellect.
> 
> can anyone point me in the right direction?
> 
> "The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them."
> 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Sports
> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football
> http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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DQ library updated

I've fixed the link to the Wiki and added the following

	Seagate Times #49
	Scribe notes:
		Searching Sol for Paradise (summer 04)
		Progress of Disease II (Winter 88)
		Ruby Waters Adventure (Summer 85)
		A Timely Ghost (Summer 05)
		Against the Necromancers (Winter 98)

Any broken links etc, let me know please.

Keith


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1) Why do Thieves need to read/write to get above Rk 3?
I agree that there are some sub-skills that may not be available to an 
illiterate thief, but one doesn't really need literary skills for 
climbing, or mugging, or picking pockets, or intimidation... unless in 
the latter case one wishes to recite odd religious lines before offing 
people.

Proposal: drop the restriction, but mark any sub-skills that require 
literacy.

2) Does Mugging work irrespective of the victim's armour?
As written the thief can jump the knight by surprise, smack him with a 
stick across his plate helmet, and make off with his purse (and if a 
high enough ranked thief) his sword and shield, and escape with a 
reasonable headstart.  Should this sub-skill perhaps require a certain 
amount of effective damage from the surprise blow?  What of victims who 
do not stun (or confuse)?  Can you mug a Mind Mage?

Proposal: require at least some effective damage for a successful 
mugging and perhaps compare with sap.

3) Do we want consistency across other skills with regards the Rank for 
additional sub-skills?
Thief allows extra / individually purchased sub-skills from Rank 7+, 
most other skills that allow additional purchases only allow this from 
Rank 10.  Thief's way appears to me to be more desirable, offering 
additional character scope and breadth without requiring the 
committments and in-game portrayl of mastery associated with possessing 
Rank 10 in a skill.  If  7 is seen as too low can we consider 8, usually 
seen as the first of the Master levels and requiring some form of master 
work to gain.  Having completed a master work and gained Rank 8 being 
able to purchase additional abilities would be a nice reward.

Proposal: review skills that allow extra sub-skills and see if it is 
possible to drop their purchase requirement to Rank 7+, or conversely to 
Rank 8 and raise Thief to match.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Breaking out Martin's point on gaining extra subskills below Rank 10 to
its own thread.
=20
I agree with Martin. I suggest that we also briefly check for
inconsistencies between ep / time values. e.g. Armourer costs 10,000ep
per extra subskill, but Troubadour cost 500ep per subskill.
=20
Arguments for Rank 10 - Makes Rank 10 much better than Rank 8 or 9. Only
the best can be true experts ?? Status quo.
=20
Arguments for Rank 7 - getting to 8 is difficult, so at Rank 7, if you
want to learn a new subskill, it is a lot harder than if you were at
rank 4, 5, or 6. Particualrly relevant for skills with subskills per
rank (Troubadour, Courtier).
=20
Arguments for Rank 8 - stops people from getting too many subskills
casually. Adds kudos to Rank 8?? Particularly relevant for skills with
few subskills - 1/3 or 5 ranks (Merchant, Beastmaster, Mil Sci).
=20
NB: Conversion for this change would be nil.
=20
Andrew
-----------------------------------
=20
Do we want consistency across other skills with regards the Rank for
additional sub-skills?
Thief allows extra / individually purchased sub-skills from Rank 7+,
most other skills that allow additional purchases only allow this from
Rank 10. Thief's way appears to me to be more desirable, offering
additional character scope and breadth without requiring the
committments and in-game portrayl of mastery associated with possessing
Rank 10 in a skill. If 7 is seen as too low can we consider 8, usually
seen as the first of the Master levels and requiring some form of master
work to gain. Having completed a master work and gained Rank 8 being=20
able to purchase additional abilities would be a nice reward.
=20
Proposal: review skills that allow extra sub-skills and see if it is
possible to drop their purchase requirement to Rank 7+, or conversely to
Rank 8 and raise Thief to match.
=20
Martin

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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Breaking out=20
Martin's point on gaining extra subskills below Rank 10 to its own=20
thread.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
agree with Martin.=20
I suggest that we also briefly check for inconsistencies between ep / =
time=20
values. e.g. Armourer costs 10,000ep per extra subskill, but Troubadour =
cost=20
500ep per subskill.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Arguments for Rank=20
10 - Makes Rank 10 much better than Rank 8 or 9. Only the best can be =
true=20
experts ?? Status quo.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Arguments for Rank 7=20
- getting to 8 is difficult, so at Rank 7, if you want to learn a new =
subskill,=20
it is a lot harder than if you were at rank 4, 5, or 6. Particualrly =
relevant=20
for skills with subskills per rank (Troubadour, =
Courtier).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Arguments for Rank 8=20
- stops people from getting too many subskills casually. Adds kudos to =
Rank 8??=20
Particularly relevant for skills with few subskills - 1/3 or&nbsp;5 =
ranks=20
(Merchant, Beastmaster, Mil Sci).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NB: =
Conversion for=20
this change would be nil.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D358435622-05072005>-----------------------------------</SPAN></FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D358435622-05072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Do we want consistency across =
other skills=20
with regards the Rank for&nbsp;</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>additional=20
sub-skills?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thief allows extra / individually =
purchased=20
sub-skills from Rank 7+, </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>most other =
skills that=20
allow additional purchases only allow this from </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Rank 10. Thief's way appears to me to be more desirable, =
offering=20
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>additional character scope and =
breadth without=20
requiring the </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>committments and =
in-game portrayl=20
of mastery associated with possessing </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Rank 10 in=20
a skill. If 7 is seen as too low can we consider 8, usually </FONT><FONT =

face=3DArial size=3D2>seen as the first of the Master levels and =
requiring some form=20
of master </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>work to gain. Having =
completed a master=20
work and gained Rank 8 being </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>able to purchase additional abilities =
would be a=20
nice reward.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Proposal: review skills that allow =
extra sub-skills=20
and see if it is </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>possible to drop =
their purchase=20
requirement to Rank 7+, or conversely to </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Rank 8=20
and raise Thief to match.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D358435622-05072005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Martin</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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> 1) Why do Thieves need to read/write to get above Rk 3?
>
> Proposal: drop the restriction, but mark any sub-skills that require 
> literacy.

Historical consistancy. More than happy to make the proposed change and
will do so. 

> 2) Does Mugging work irrespective of the victim's armour?
>
> Proposal: require at least some effective damage for a successful 
> mugging and perhaps compare with sap.

The intention was more of a surprise thing than a doing damage thing.
One presumes that Mind mages can be surprised just like anyone else
unless they have telepathy working and I would prefer not to have to
write in all possible exceptions. 

Basically, a push into a wall, a hit on the noggin, a trip or just about
any physical approach is the intention, the writing may need tidying,
but I would prefer damage not be required. Is it the lack of defense
against it that is the main concern?

> 3) Do we want consistency across other skills with regards 
>
> Proposal: review skills that allow extra sub-skills and see if it is 
> possible to drop their purchase requirement to Rank 7+, or 
> conversely to Rank 8 and raise Thief to match.

My personal impression is that it is stupid to limit peoples ability to
develop due to a requirement to perform 3 amazing feats.

To use an example of a skill I don't have a character who it a
specialist for it....Mechanician. 

A mechanician can learn and develop in new area's up till rank 7, then
all of a sudden their brain stops working and they can no longer learn
about another area of mechanicianing until they perform a master work. I
think it is far more sensible to allow people to learn all the area's
they want in a skill and use them, rather than have the whole process
stagnate due to game mechanics. 

If the game mechanic is a strong driver, we actually do not want people
to be able to learn all of the aspects of a skill, then I agree we
should require the masterworks but I personally cannot see any benefits
from that. 

Mandos
/s


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change from my previous message - Mordrin is available after all, and 
Ithilmor is not - could *possibly* play a night or two if needed,

cheers

clare


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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>>2) Does Mugging work irrespective of the victim's armour?
>>    
>>
>The intention was more of a surprise thing than a doing damage thing. One presumes that Mind mages can be surprised just like anyone else unless they have telepathy working and I would prefer not to have to write in all possible exceptions. 
>  
>
But are there exceptions?  When GMing I usually try to run with the 
current rulings and interpretations but I'd rather not have to allow 
something that seemed silly... or conversely disallow a player from 
doing something that their skill strongly implied they were capable of.

>Basically, a push into a wall, a hit on the noggin, a trip or just about any physical approach is the intention, the writing may need tidying, but I would prefer damage not be required. Is it the lack of defense against it that is the main concern?
>  
>
Yes -- it requires an attack at -30 with a blunt object (current 
writeup), which implies to me at least that it's intended to stun but 
then ignores armour.

There is also no restriction on what can be grabbed -- does it have to 
be obvious, or accessible, or both?  Can you snatch a purse using this 
skill? A sheathed weapon? A ring? A breastplate? Trousers?? :-)

It's too vague -- which is fine in some ways... like all things it 
becomes open to GM interpretation... I'd just prefer a bit more 
guideance for GMs and players. I know consistency is my hobbyhorse 
but... I want the players to be able to be able to predict the 
reasonableness of their actions (if not their outcome).  If a PC 
attempts to mug a knight, using a chair leg, and then tries to take off 
with pieces of armour I'm more than happy to laugh at them... I just 
want them to be able to predict beforehand that the actions they are 
describing are unlikely to succeed.

On the other hand... I'm tempted to have a party set upon by a horde of 
halfling muggers and stripped buck naked. :-)

>>Proposal: ...or conversely to Rank 8 and raise Thief to match.
>>
>If the game mechanic is a strong driver, we actually do not want people
>to be able to learn all of the aspects of a skill, then I agree we
>should require the masterworks...
>  
>
Just for clarity -- my preference is for either Rank 7 or 8; when I 
write "raise Thief to match" I meant only that if we settled on Rank 8 
then Thief should be raised from 7 to 8.  I have no desire to see Thief 
at 10... and any other skill for that matter.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

> I agree with Martin. I suggest that we also briefly check for 
> inconsistencies between ep / time values. e.g. Armourer costs 10,000ep 
> per extra subskill, but Troubadour cost 500ep per subskill.

Yes, Troubadour is definitely overpriced. :-)

>  
> Arguments for Rank 7 - getting to 8 is difficult, so at Rank 7, if you 
> want to learn a new subskill, it is a lot harder than if you were at 
> rank 4, 5, or 6. Particualrly relevant for skills with subskills per 
> rank (Troubadour, Courtier).
>  
> Arguments for Rank 8 - stops people from getting too many subskills 
> casually. Adds kudos to Rank 8?? Particularly relevant for skills with 
> few subskills - 1/3 or 5 ranks (Merchant, Beastmaster, Mil Sci).

Following Andrew's arguments here perhaps there is a reasonable case for 
using both 7 & 8 depending on the skill / structure. Not completely 
consistent, but then neither are the skills.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> > Arguments for Rank 8 - stops people from getting too many subskills
> > casually. Adds kudos to Rank 8?? Particularly relevant for 
> skills with 
> > few subskills - 1/3 or 5 ranks (Merchant, Beastmaster, Mil Sci).
> 
> Following Andrew's arguments here perhaps there is a 
> reasonable case for 
> using both 7 & 8 depending on the skill / structure. Not completely 
> consistent, but then neither are the skills.

Which skills are concerning in terms of getting subskills casually? 

It would be good to see a breakdown in terms of which skills fall into
which category? 

Mandos
/s


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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>Which skills are concerning in terms of getting subskills casually? 
>
>It would be good to see a breakdown in terms of which skills fall into
>which category? 
>  
>
Category 1
No purchasable subskills. Either has no sub-skills, or skills are 
acquired in a structured manner with no additional purchases possible:

Adventuring skills
Alchemist*
Artisan
Assassin
Astrologer
Healer
Herbalist
Languages
Navigator
Stealth
Warrior

*Alchemist has sub-skills, but these are all gained by Rank 9.

Category 2
Additional subskills can be purchased. Total number of sub-skills is 
shown beside skill name. Second number is qty of sub-skills at Rank 10 
(assuming normal selection:

Armourer (9/6)
Beast Master (monster sections?/3)
Courtier (14+/12)
Mechanician (22+/10)
Merchant (12+/3)
Military Scientist (7/5)
Philosopher**
Ranger***
Spy (15/10)
Thief (17/10)
Troubadour (21+/13)
Weaponsmith (9/6)

**Philosopher has a great many sub-skills of vary size and cost. These 
are all priced and may be purchased spearately from Rank 10.
***Rangers have learnable terrains similar ot sub-skills

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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I would just like so inform you all:

Truly excellent scribe notes from Serendipity, Serendipity has restored my
faith in the hope that scribe notes may in fact be useful to others!!

Well done Serendipity!

http://dq.sf.org.nz/library/snwi9804.pdf 

Is their a Exp reward given out to players for excellent scribe notes and if
so what is the range from poor to excellent?

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66


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> Armourer (9/6)
> Beast Master (monster sections?/3)
> Courtier (14+/12)
> Mechanician (22+/10)
> Merchant (12+/3)
> Military Scientist (7/5)
> Philosopher**
> Ranger***
> Spy (15/10)
> Thief (17/10)
> Troubadour (21+/13)
> Weaponsmith (9/6)

So of these which ones would pose a problem if people got all of the
subskills prior to Rk 8? 

Armourer - I think if anything it would be preferable in this case to
limit the Mithril and Magical creature armour to the higher ranks. 

Mechanicians and Philosophers I really cannot see as the types of people
who stop learning if they have gone to the trouble of getting Rank 7 and
in fact they are the ones that seem the oddest when it comes to the rank
10 issue. 

Merchant and Beastmaster are fairly underutilised skills anyway so no
problem. 

So realistically the only real issue is if we want people to be able to
collect all the troubadour/Courtier/Spy and Thief skills. Again I cannot
see a problem but am willing to accept there may be issues from those
who play/GM people with these skills. 

Mandos
/s


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Answer: in the Duchy of Carzala, on the Sweetwater, about half a day's ride
from Seagate.

Andrew's answer is fundamentally correct, except that he is not Destinian
(Pre-Destinian in fact).  He is a friend of Motley & of a few other
guildmembers.  Lord AnteCarzala is a reknown healer -- especially of many
animal types non-humanoid sentients.  He has volunteered be teaching
guildmembers how to be "animal healers" ... once the guild sorts out how he
actually does this.

Many many centuries ago, AnteCarzala (various spellings) was the title
granted to a retired dragon slayer (i.e. an ex-slayer of evil dragons) and
was the lower valley of the Sweetwater ... Carzala being the Mouth of the
river, in those times.   After waking from his hibernation, Sir Prudence
(for that is his name, which is why he prefers to be called Lord
AnteCarzala) found that the place had changed somewhat while he was
sleeping -- villages, towns, even a city, in what had been wilderness.   To
avoid any awkwardness, he purchased the barony about 12 or 15 years ago from
the Duke & build his semi-fortified seat, which is called "The Inn of the
Silver Dragon" on the Southern (Guild side) of the Sweetwater -- he also
owns a few of the near-by villages.

It is a very small barony; one can casually stroll around its boundaries in
a few hours.   Exact place on map uncertain, because of imprecision as to
who owns what/whom ... but it is only a few hours ride from the Guild.  The
place has had problems in the past with various brigands seeking for
AnteCarzala's rumoured dragon hoards -- but the evil-doers are never heard
of again.  Conincidentally, his "pet Cats" don't seem to worry the local
livestock.

Most recent Game invovlement was  "Harbouring the Enemy (Moskada)" Winter
804 -- when AnteCarzala hosted the party's employers who were from the Spice
Isles ... his "aunt", Mme du Lally, & her protege. [SGT#46].   Still no
scribe notes yet on file; but should she want write-ups of her items ...

regards, Michael


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 July 2005 8:12 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Where is Anticasala?
>
>
> I believe AnteCarzala is the northern most part of Carzala, along the
> coast towards Ranke. While in practise a series of subsistence villages
> and brigands preying on those foolish enough to believe the maps
> promising a road to Ranke, it is nominally under the control of the
> Baron of AnteCarzala, an absentee  Destinian noble who bought the title
> from Ranke or Carzala. The name stems from the days where the entrance
> to Carzala was via Ranke, who of course was largely responsible for the
> founding of Carzala in ?703WK? or thereabouts.
>
> More details probably available from Michael Parkinson, who runs Baroni
> il AnteCarzala, an occasional guild employer.
>
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Monday, 4 July 2005 10:03 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Where is Anticasala?
>
>
> It is mentioned in the Gazetteer and I have copied its details into the
> Wiki, but what/where is it?
>
> Does anyone know or remember?  Or should we put it down to the delusion
> of drug taking scribes?
>
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Anticasala
>
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
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Generally I agree, being able to pick up extra sub-skills before Rk 10 is a great idea.

How about even earlier than Rk 7?  How about allowing you to pick up sub-skills at any rank.  That
way you could be a Troubador who plays every instrument, sings, dances, has puppet shows, but all
very badly because you never progressed beyond rank 0.
The same with Weaponsmiths and Armourers - the people who never progress beyond being apprentices
but trundle along with the army making crap swords and downgrading good quality armour.

The sub-skills would need to be "priced" (in xp and time) appropriately.  And some should probably
have pre-requisites of other subskills or a skill rank.
And some skills still give you "free" subskills with new ranks which will sometimes be wasted if
you have already bought the subskills but that's fine - it was your choice to do so.


I've always thought of the special requirements for ranks 8, 9, and 10 as a "guild" thing. 
Basically the Healers Guild will not recognise you or train you as a master until you have
performed a Masterwork to prove your value to the Healers Guild.
This fits in with classic Apprentice/Journeyman/Master model with having to gain skill and then
prove yourself in order to progress to the next level.
Sometimes what is required to prove yourself is as much about politics as it is about skill, but I
think we accurately represent that in our campaign. :)

I think the master ranks should be special, and hard.  And I think that allowing breadth without
requiring high ranks strengthens that.  It means that someone who has achieved rank 10 has done so
because they wanted to be the best, not because it was the only way they could craft the
Dragonhide they picked up on their first adventure.

I think I had a point somewhere there...

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> Breaking out Martin's point on gaining extra subskills below Rank 10 to its own thread.
>
> I agree with Martin. I suggest that we also briefly check for
> inconsistencies between ep / time values. e.g. Armourer costs 10,000ep per extra subskill, but
> Troubadour cost 500ep per subskill.
>
> Arguments for Rank 10 - Makes Rank 10 much better than Rank 8 or 9. Only the best can be true
> experts ?? Status quo.
>
> Arguments for Rank 7 - getting to 8 is difficult, so at Rank 7, if you want to learn a new
> subskill, it is a lot harder than if you were at rank 4, 5, or 6. Particualrly relevant for
> skills with subskills per rank (Troubadour, Courtier).
>
> Arguments for Rank 8 - stops people from getting too many subskills casually. Adds kudos to Rank
> 8?? Particularly relevant for skills with few subskills - 1/3 or 5 ranks (Merchant, Beastmaster,
> Mil Sci).
>
> NB: Conversion for this change would be nil.
>
> Andrew
> -----------------------------------
>
> Do we want consistency across other skills with regards the Rank for additional sub-skills?
> Thief allows extra / individually purchased sub-skills from Rank 7+, most other skills that
> allow additional purchases only allow this from Rank 10. Thief's way appears to me to be more
> desirable, offering
> additional character scope and breadth without requiring the
> committments and in-game portrayl of mastery associated with possessing Rank 10 in a skill. If 7
> is seen as too low can we consider 8, usually seen as the first of the Master levels and
> requiring some form of master work to gain. Having completed a master work and gained Rank 8
> being  able to purchase additional abilities would be a nice reward.
>
> Proposal: review skills that allow extra sub-skills and see if it is possible to drop their
> purchase requirement to Rank 7+, or conversely to Rank 8 and raise Thief to match.
>
> Martin


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Hi,

my thoughts are that while consistency is nice we don't need all skills 
to fit the same mold. Skills with many subskills suit allowing extra 
subskill purchase at lower ranks than those with fewer sub-skills in my 
opinion. Rank 7 is what I consider a very skilled journeyman, and they 
should be able to gain the vast majority of the subskills by that stage 
if desired.

If you want a one size fits all solution then I vote for making the 
rank 7, but I also am quite comfortable with a solution that treats 
skills individually.

cheers,

clare


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Stephen Martin wrote:

>I've always thought of the special requirements for ranks 8, 9, and 10 as a "guild" thing.
>  
>
Yes, an in-game guild thing, but explained to me many years back as a 
campaign tool for ensuring that these ranks remian reasonably 
(believably?) rare, and more sought for character reasons than "power 
gaming" -- basically requiring more of a committment than just paying 
the ep.

We may not have always handled masterworks well but the system does seem 
to have worked OK-ish.

Now... if I could only figure out what the $&%^ to do for Rk 10 Mech...

    - Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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As a general idea, I think that allowing extra subskills before rank 10 is a
useful change to the game.

Given that any complexity (due to different skills having different ways of
implementing this) can be handled primarily by the player, I think that
having 2 or 3 ways of doing this will be fine.

If we allow extra purchases over a wide range of ranks, then a cost based on
the cost of a rank increase could be useful e.g. "additional sub-skills of
this skill my be attained at two-thirds the cost in ep and time (round up to
next week) of the current rank held, once rank 4 has been achieved" or
somesuch.
Each skill should be reviewed for the most suitable approach (no option,
Rk10 only, Rk7 on, etc) and cost (fixed, 2/3s of rank, 1/2 of rank, etc) as
they vary a lot, but I don't think we want 10 totally different ways of
doing things.

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clare Baldock [mailto:clare@orcon.net.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:21
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> my thoughts are that while consistency is nice we don't need 
> all skills 
> to fit the same mold. Skills with many subskills suit allowing extra 
> subskill purchase at lower ranks than those with fewer 
> sub-skills in my 
> opinion. Rank 7 is what I consider a very skilled journeyman, 
> and they 
> should be able to gain the vast majority of the subskills by 
> that stage 
> if desired.
> 
> If you want a one size fits all solution then I vote for making the 
> rank 7, but I also am quite comfortable with a solution that treats 
> skills individually.
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As a general idea, I think that allowing extra =
subskills before rank 10 is a useful change to the game.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Given that any complexity (due to different skills =
having different ways of implementing this) can be handled primarily by =
the player, I think that having 2 or 3 ways of doing this will be =
fine.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If we allow extra purchases over a wide range of =
ranks, then a cost based on the cost of a rank increase could be useful =
e.g. &quot;additional sub-skills of this skill my be attained at =
two-thirds the cost in ep and time (round up to next week) of the =
current rank held, once rank 4 has been achieved&quot; or =
somesuch.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Each skill should be reviewed for the most suitable =
approach (no option, Rk10 only, Rk7 on, etc) and cost (fixed, 2/3s of =
rank, 1/2 of rank, etc) as they vary a lot, but I don't think we want =
10 totally different ways of doing things.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Clare Baldock [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:clare@orcon.net.nz">mailto:clare@orcon.net.nz</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2005 17:21</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills =
below Rank 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hi,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; my thoughts are that while consistency is nice =
we don't need </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; all skills </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to fit the same mold. Skills with many =
subskills suit allowing extra </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; subskill purchase at lower ranks than those =
with fewer </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; sub-skills in my </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; opinion. Rank 7 is what I consider a very =
skilled journeyman, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and they </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should be able to gain the vast majority of the =
subskills by </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that stage </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; if desired.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If you want a one size fits all solution then I =
vote for making the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rank 7, but I also am quite comfortable with a =
solution that treats </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; skills individually.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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I like the idea that additional subskills can be gained before rank 10.

Rank 10 in most skills should be only for NPCs or characters that are semi
retired, very few Rank 10 troubadours would be adventuring when they could
be living in luxury, employed in some court. Nor the Armourer whose
commission on a single suit of armour, is more than I got from my last 2
adventures gross. 
Some like warrior or healer are more adventuring type skills, but a rank 10
thief or spy should probably be running their own ring.

I kind of like Stephens idea of doing all things badly but I don't see it a
practical in game terms. 

Besides isn't rank 0 supposed to be journeyman level able to do a reasonable
job or turn out a saleable product?
The addition of subskills after rank 0 just shows proficiency in a new area
or less commonly practiced area. E.g. the bulk of an army would wear cloth
Armour and all armour has padding which needs repair or replacement so Rank
0 Armourer earns you a living, you want to get officer or town watch custom
so you study for leather or chain and improve on the quality of your
goods.(Rank 2 maybe Rank 4)

At present once you hit rank 7 no matter what you study a weaponsmith can't
learn to make another weapon without those mastery Levels and that's plain
silly. A character needs to be a master Weaponsmith just to replace or
repair the party's most common weapons, Axes, Swords shields and bows, after
that you might as well just aim for 10 so you can in the get them all. 

We can limit the grabbing of too many additional subskills by time and ep
cost, say equal to the rank 7 cost. And as a bonus to those who do go to
Mastery ranks 8, 9, 10 give a Rank related time and ep discount. 
Maybe even try to bring it down to about the same as the rank tens pay in ep
now.
And some Subskills like Mithril Armour can be amended so they can only be
attained at rank 8 or above, like experimental engineering is in Mechanican

Jason says that if we lower the point at which subskills are gained we
remove the incentive to get ranks 8,9,10. His argument being that many
skills are performed at 90 +rank so why bother with the last 2 or 3%.
My though is that those skills are just the Skills that rank 10 is only
attained so you CAN get more subskills and are probably ones you should have
given up adventuring to work at full time long ago.
And the rest have bonuses like weaponsmiths improvement to Dm or SC being
rank dependant to encourage those who really want to be masters.

Helen


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hi all,

i have read and agreed with all the posts todate. 

i would like to offer an amendment / augmentation ?

There are subskills that might reasonably be restricted to masters in a skill (ie Rank 8+)

Many may be generic. some would be specific to that skill, eg Mithril armour for armourer.

so you can choose from all non-master subskills when Rank 7-, and can (under this proposal) choose more subskills are Rank 7 (for a given ep and time cost). Then at Rank 8+ more subskills become available, and can (under this proposal) acquire more subskills if already at Rank 10.

small change that may make Rank 8 quite desirable for some characters and boring for others.

Ian


> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2005/07/06 Wed PM 01:56:12 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10
> 
> > Armourer (9/6)
> > Beast Master (monster sections?/3)
> > Courtier (14+/12)
> > Mechanician (22+/10)
> > Merchant (12+/3)
> > Military Scientist (7/5)
> > Philosopher**
> > Ranger***
> > Spy (15/10)
> > Thief (17/10)
> > Troubadour (21+/13)
> > Weaponsmith (9/6)
> 
> So of these which ones would pose a problem if people got all of the
> subskills prior to Rk 8?
> 
> Armourer - I think if anything it would be preferable in this case to
> limit the Mithril and Magical creature armour to the higher ranks.
> 
> Mechanicians and Philosophers I really cannot see as the types of people
> who stop learning if they have gone to the trouble of getting Rank 7 and
> in fact they are the ones that seem the oddest when it comes to the rank
> 10 issue.
> 
> Merchant and Beastmaster are fairly underutilised skills anyway so no
> problem.
> 
> So realistically the only real issue is if we want people to be able to
> collect all the troubadour/Courtier/Spy and Thief skills. Again I cannot
> see a problem but am willing to accept there may be issues from those
> who play/GM people with these skills.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
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>


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Now... if I could only figure out what the $&%^ to do for Rk 10 Mech...

    - Martin


Turing capable difference engine?
If it rebels and overthrows its creator you get R10


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