William Dymock wrote:

>>I want an easy calculation and motivation for people to use them. Currently the only reason to rank chain weapons is for warrior ranking. Hell, what Mandos said.
>>    
>>
I understand and appreciate your desire for simplicity -- negation is 
far easier than reduction.  I just wonder if perhaps an effect reduced 
in scope (but not numbers) might acheive the same effect with less 
collateral change.

Specifically, have chain weapons negate Main-Gauche, and perhaps 
Buckler, but have the larger shields remain effective.  They are 
infrequently used as is, and already have their own down-sides of weight 
and MD loss.

This intermediate step would give a bonus to chain weapons against the 
(anecdotely) most frequently used "shield" the M-G, while at the same 
time effectively granting a small bonus to the big shields -- they aid 
against chain weapons.

>>I'd also add that Warhorses need to be 2-hex creatures.
>>    
>>
>>It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that used to come with the combat section.
>>    
>>
Errmm... it was clearly implied by the picture of the 1-hex horseman?  
OK... wasn't that clear to me.  Seriously -- have a look -- the mounted 
figure is single hex.

By the way -- was thinking about your suggestions re. Polearms 
overnight.  I tend to agree with the extended range change with a few 
caveats:
1) Exclude Javelins -- these are light 1-handed spears and are already 
special,  having throwing Range.
2) Ensure that the extended attack option is a Special Attack (see 3.9) 
which means that it cannot be combined with another Special Attack -- 
I'd prefer not to see a Multi-Hex strike at extended range.
3) Give some special ability to Pike.  Currently Pike has extended. If 
the other Polearms are given extended I think Pike should retain a 
difference.  Pike is seldom used by PCs but is good for NPC military... 
perhaps give it extended and double extended, but remove basic Melee.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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William Dymock wrote:

>  
>
>>You mean like it is now? "Used by an assassian, any hit knocks out the target"
>>    
>>
>>Any hit meaning you just have to get the strike to hit, damage is irrelevant.
>>    
>>
"D The sap may only be used to knock out targets wearing only leather, 
cloth or no armour.  Used by an assassin, any hit knocks out the target; 
for anyone else, any hit stuns and 4 or more points of effective damage 
knocks out the target. This will not work on targets larger than human 
size."

You are correct -- it is restricted however to "leather, cloth or no 
armour".  It does not currently work against heavier armour.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Alternate suggestion for Morningstar vs. shield etc.

Main-Gauche does not give defense against ANY C class weapons (a little bar
of metal is not going to stop a weapon designed to crush armour and brake
bones). Missile weapons are already excluded so we are just adding one more
class and the weapon is really designed to be used against swords and spears
which are A & B class weapons.( Axes being B class remain for simplicity.)

Flail's & Morningstar's either add a +10 to strike chance against shield
(although this affects EN calcs etc. it's not much and easy to do). Or take
the 10 of the opponents def. (yes I know 10 may be more than the def gained
from the shield which is why I like the +10 best.)

Helen


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-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 10:57 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.

>I like the MR idea. I'd also add that Warhorses need to be 2-hex creatures.


>It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that used to come with the
combat section.

It is implied in the War horse description, as war houses can make trample
attacks and only multi hex creatures can trample.

Helen


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Creatures that have special Trample attacks:
Boar (1 hex), Oxen (1 hex) elephants (4 hex), rhinos (3 hex), mammoths
(4 hex) and war horse (? Hex), unicorn (as per warhorse), pegasi (as per
warhorse)

Any sized figure may potentially trample. (3.8 - Charge & Close para 3)

Multi-hex figures may freely pivot and then trample. Their initial
trample is D+(hex), but subsequent tramples are as per bestiary. (3.15
para 4)

A trample attack does not define the creature's size.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 10:57 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.

>I like the MR idea. I'd also add that Warhorses need to be 2-hex 
>creatures.


>It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that used to come with the
combat section.

It is implied in the War horse description, as war houses can make
trample attacks and only multi hex creatures can trample.

Helen


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Helen Saggers wrote:

>It is implied in the War horse description, as war houses can make trample
>attacks and only multi hex creatures can trample.
>  
>
It would be best perhaps to list them as 2-hex creatures -- assuming we 
desire that -- rather than trust to inference; given the general level 
of consistency in wording we know and love in the DQ rules. :-)

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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my opinion would be war-horses of various flavours
(Unicorns, pegasi etc) are all 2 hex creatures mostly
due to size and maneuverablity. Also I envision a war
horse standing approx 16-17 hands and a horse that
size would (in a stable) require at least a 10' by 10'
stall given how the horse moves about and it's overall
length etc.

just my 2 cents worth.

Zane

*trys to recall why I know this stuff then puts it
down to roleplaying*

--- "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
wrote:

> Creatures that have special Trample attacks:
> Boar (1 hex), Oxen (1 hex) elephants (4 hex), rhinos
> (3 hex), mammoths
> (4 hex) and war horse (? Hex), unicorn (as per
> warhorse), pegasi (as per
> warhorse)
> 
> Any sized figure may potentially trample. (3.8 -
> Charge & Close para 3)
> 
> Multi-hex figures may freely pivot and then trample.
> Their initial
> trample is D+(hex), but subsequent tramples are as
> per bestiary. (3.15
> para 4)
> 
> A trample attack does not define the creature's
> size.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
> [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> William Dymock
> Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 10:57 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more
> fun.
> 
> >I like the MR idea. I'd also add that Warhorses
> need to be 2-hex
> >creatures.
> 
> 
> >It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that
> used to come with the
> combat section.
> 
> It is implied in the War horse description, as war
> houses can make
> trample attacks and only multi hex creatures can
> trample.
> 
> Helen
> 
> 
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> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 



		
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Please find image of second edition attached.

Also, from same rules, Mounted Combat section, a screen shot (text
wouldn't copy /paste).

I get from this:
(a) most horses were intended to be single hex.
(b) The horse in the diagram appears to be single hex.
(c) The horse in the diagram can trample.
From bestiary
(d) only warhorses can trample.
thus
(e) warhorses appear to be single hex.

On the other hand, what do we want.

Friday afternoon...

Andrew
-----Original Message-----

I like the MR idea. I'd also add that Warhorses need to be 2-hex
creatures. I still don't think this will make riding more desirable, but
may as you say, make the mounted fighter an option. (Sorry if you
covered that already -- for some odd reason I didn't get your original
post, only all the replies). :-)

>It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that used to come with the
combat section.


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Stephen wrote
>Allow a rider to control the flight spell on their mount and people
will take their horses
>adventuring.  The main reason why people don't take them is that they
are too slow for general
> travel. If I could fly my horse the 100 miles to the adventure site
and then ride around once there then
> I'd do it.

I agree with this on so many levels
from a player perspective ive only once been able to take a mount on
adventure, we ended up being so slow that the bad guy destroyed the
plane, whoops. From a gm perspective I love the idea of landing rolls
with half a ton of warhorse being in the equation as well, although the
idea of aerial stomp attacks with the flying mammoth does make me
shudder.

Would suggest requirement of R7 Horseman & R7 Flying to be able to do
this & require a mount that you had trained with ( beastmaster training
) or some such, rather than any old nag to stop aerial bombardment
attacks - the player would value his mount too much.

Cheers Noel


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Helen Saggers wrote:

>Main-Gauche does not give defense against ANY C class weapons (a little bar
>of metal is not going to stop a weapon designed to crush armour and brake
>bones).
>
The use of an M-G is to deflect the line of the attack causing it to 
miss -- not to stop a warhammer dead in its tracks.  Any shield is used 
in a similar fashion; presenting your shield square on to a hammer is a 
good way to end up with a shattered shield and a broken arm.

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Zane Mendoza wrote:

>Also I envision a war horse standing approx 16-17 hands...
>
Perhaps this is true on Alusia.  Historical warhorses were not generally 
that big.

Brief article on subject:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/ANIMALS/warhorse-size-art.html

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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	charset="iso-8859-1"

There is the technical point that Shadow Wings is target:Sentient Entity -
one reason I didn't take up the offer of a fine horse, trained in the Flying
skill.

We could change this, obviously.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel Livingston (DSL AK) [mailto:NoelL@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 11:35
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.
> 
> 
> Stephen wrote
> >Allow a rider to control the flight spell on their mount and people
> will take their horses
> >adventuring.  The main reason why people don't take them is that they
> are too slow for general
> > travel. If I could fly my horse the 100 miles to the adventure site
> and then ride around once there then
> > I'd do it.
> 
> I agree with this on so many levels
> from a player perspective ive only once been able to take a mount on
> adventure, we ended up being so slow that the bad guy destroyed the
> plane, whoops. From a gm perspective I love the idea of landing rolls
> with half a ton of warhorse being in the equation as well, 
> although the
> idea of aerial stomp attacks with the flying mammoth does make me
> shudder.
> 
> Would suggest requirement of R7 Horseman & R7 Flying to be able to do
> this & require a mount that you had trained with ( 
> beastmaster training
> ) or some such, rather than any old nag to stop aerial bombardment
> attacks - the player would value his mount too much.
> 
> Cheers Noel
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There is the technical point that Shadow Wings is =
target:Sentient Entity - one reason I didn't take up the offer of a =
fine horse, trained in the Flying skill.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We could change this, obviously.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Noel Livingston (DSL AK) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:NoelL@datacom.co.nz">mailto:NoelL@datacom.co.nz</A>]</FON=
T>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 11:35</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, =
more fun.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Stephen wrote</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Allow a rider to control the flight spell =
on their mount and people</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; will take their horses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;adventuring.&nbsp; The main reason why =
people don't take them is that they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; are too slow for general</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; travel. If I could fly my horse the 100 =
miles to the adventure site</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and then ride around once there then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I'd do it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I agree with this on so many levels</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; from a player perspective ive only once been =
able to take a mount on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; adventure, we ended up being so slow that the =
bad guy destroyed the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; plane, whoops. From a gm perspective I love the =
idea of landing rolls</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; with half a ton of warhorse being in the =
equation as well, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; although the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; idea of aerial stomp attacks with the flying =
mammoth does make me</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; shudder.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Would suggest requirement of R7 Horseman &amp; =
R7 Flying to be able to do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this &amp; require a mount that you had trained =
with ( </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; beastmaster training</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ) or some such, rather than any old nag to stop =
aerial bombardment</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attacks - the player would value his mount too =
much.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cheers Noel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
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I'm with Zane on this one.

Riding horses in alusia tend to be what GMs (most not hugely
horse-literate - Helen, Jon, etc can claim exception) have ridden or
seen - so 14.2 to 16 hands.

War horses (from the besitary) "are often five and a half feet at a
shoulder and can weigh more than a ton".

This seems very much to be 16-17+ hands, and solid.

Also, as Martin reminds us when covering technology, we are in the
Renaissance, so should look at Heroic 16th century, not medieval 13th,
the focus of the article linked to.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 11:42 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.


Zane Mendoza wrote:

>Also I envision a war horse standing approx 16-17 hands...
>
Perhaps this is true on Alusia.  Historical warhorses were not generally

that big.

Brief article on subject:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/ANIMALS/warhorse-size-art.html

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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I think making horses to fly within the game too easy removes one of the
adventuring constraints.  Yes most people would love to fly there and
then ride, as it has all the advantages of quickly getting there, and
then appearing unconspicuous amongst the locals.  All the advantages,
with no disadvantages.  There often is and I believe should be the
discussion of mode of transport at the start of adventure.  Which is
more important - speed or blending in, or riding unknown, possibly
untrained hired hacks?  

There have evolved methods  and special abilities are out there, to help
overcome the hindrances of riding away from home.  

If GM's want more riding in their adventures then address that issue eg
setting adventure on Alusia, close to guild, having horses readily
buyable when they get there, punish the conspicuous fliers by
locals/society.

(Declaration of interest : my two main characters are a dedicated flying
air mage; and a horse loving warrior-magea with a said special ability) 

Regards,
Sally


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Noel Livingston (DSL AK)
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 11:35 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.


Stephen wrote
>Allow a rider to control the flight spell on their mount and people
will take their horses
>adventuring.  The main reason why people don't take them is that they
are too slow for general
> travel. If I could fly my horse the 100 miles to the adventure site
and then ride around once there then
> I'd do it.

I agree with this on so many levels
from a player perspective ive only once been able to take a mount on
adventure, we ended up being so slow that the bad guy destroyed the
plane, whoops. From a gm perspective I love the idea of landing rolls
with half a ton of warhorse being in the equation as well, although the
idea of aerial stomp attacks with the flying mammoth does make me
shudder.

Would suggest requirement of R7 Horseman & R7 Flying to be able to do
this & require a mount that you had trained with ( beastmaster training
) or some such, rather than any old nag to stop aerial bombardment
attacks - the player would value his mount too much.

Cheers Noel


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There is nothing saying Boar of Oxen are 1 hex or for that matter that they
are not, but then what the beastly doesn't say is what started this in the
first place.

3.6 Charge and close only says that a figure in close may attempt a grapple
action or a trample attack.

To trample you must be on your feet. 3.5 close combat says figures in close
are prone, 3.15 last lines says multi hex figures in close with smaller
figure do not automatically fall prone.
So the trample attack in 3.6 applies to multi hex figures and the grapple to
1 hex or two same sized creatures.

Helen 
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 11:09 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.

Creatures that have special Trample attacks:
Boar (1 hex), Oxen (1 hex) elephants (4 hex), rhinos (3 hex), mammoths
(4 hex) and war horse (? Hex), unicorn (as per warhorse), pegasi (as per
warhorse)

Any sized figure may potentially trample. (3.8 - Charge & Close para 3)

Multi-hex figures may freely pivot and then trample. Their initial
trample is D+(hex), but subsequent tramples are as per bestiary. (3.15
para 4)

A trample attack does not define the creature's size.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 10:57 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Hitting people for fun and, more fun.

>I like the MR idea. I'd also add that Warhorses need to be 2-hex 
>creatures.


>It was clearly implied in all the diagrams that used to come with the
combat section.

It is implied in the War horse description, as war houses can make
trample attacks and only multi hex creatures can trample.

Helen


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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DNumbers=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
extra subskill costs:
Armourer         5,000ep
Beastmaster      5,000ep=20
Courtier         1,000ep
Mechanician      2,500ep
Merchant         4,000ep
Military Sci     3,000ep
Spy (proposed)   2,500ep
Thief (proposed) 4,000ep
Troubadour       1,000ep
Weaponsmith      5,000ep
=20
All take 4 weeks.
=20
Available at any Rank. All EP & time halved at Rank 8 (or 10).
=20
This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) for
Rank 8+. Its simple, has a "logical" foundation, and feels right to me.
=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DRationale=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
I started with a guideline for cost of subskills being ~ Rank 4 ep &
time. This is 1,000 to 4,000 ep.
=20
This means you will be at least Rank 5 before bothering to get subskills
for the sake of subskills, and probably Rank 7.
=20
Some subskills aren't available at every rank. This makes them more
valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 2 ranks. Merchant
is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I multiplied the
ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used "every 2
ranks" to avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this gives the above
table.
=20
I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time for Rank 8+ (or just Rank
10?). This gives some benefit for those who reach Master ranks, and a
reason to wait if you can.
=20
Note that Ranger only ever allows one primary environment, which you may
*change* for EP at any rank. This is not the same, so is not in the
above table.
=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Andrew

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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Numbers</SPAN></o:p></SPAN>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN =

style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>extra subskill =
costs:</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New">Armourer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;5,000e=
p</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">Beastmaster&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
5,000ep&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New">Courtier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000e=
p</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">Mechanician&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
2,500ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New">Merchant&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4,000e=
p</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Military=20
Sci&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3,000ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>=

<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Spy =
(proposed)&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
2,500ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Thief=20
(proposed)&nbsp;4,000ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier =
New">Troubadour&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000ep</FONT></=
SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
face=3D"Courier New">Weaponsmith&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
5,000ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>All take 4 weeks.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Available at any Rank. All EP &amp; time =
halved at Rank=20
8 (or 10).</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>This closely matches current rates (except=20
Armourer/Weaponsmith) for&nbsp;Rank 8+. Its simple, has a "logical"=20
foundation,&nbsp;and feels right to=20
me.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DI=
V>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN =

style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Rationale</SPAN></o:p></SPAN>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>I started with a guideline for cost of =
subskills being=20
~&nbsp;Rank 4 ep &amp; time. This is 1,000 to 4,000=20
ep.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>This means you will be at least Rank 5 before =
bothering=20
to get subskills for the sake of subskills, and probably Rank=20
7.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Some subskills aren't available at every =
rank. This=20
makes them more valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 2 =
ranks.=20
Merchant is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I multiplied =
the=20
ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used "every 2 =
ranks" to=20
avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this gives the above=20
table.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time for =
Rank 8+=20
(or just Rank 10?). This gives some benefit for those who reach Master =
ranks,=20
and a reason to wait if you can.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Note that Ranger only ever allows one primary =

environment, which you may *change* for EP at any rank. This is not the =
same, so=20
is not in the above table.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></o:p><=
/SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV=
>
<DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005>Andrew</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>=

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Helen Saggers [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 14:35
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10
<snip>

>  
> Set the cost too cheap and for example, every Rank 7 Courtier 
> will have all
> the subskills within a year. At 500ep and only 2 wks training 
> as is the
> current cost it would take 10 wks and 2,500 ep. 
> Fine for it to be so cheap if you a rank 10 master, picking 
> up the last 2 or
> 3 subskills. 
> But not at Rank 7! 
> 2800 ep and 7 wks is a lot closer to what it should be to make players
> choose between a rank in a spell or ritual and another subskill.

One thing I hadn't considered when I suggested a variable cost depending on
your rank when you get the extra subskill was the encouragement this gives
characters to branch out early (unless we get complicated with how much
later ranks cost).
This factor suggests that things will be better if extra subskills are only
available over a small range of ranks for a fixed cost regardless of current
rank e.g. 7+.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Helen Saggers [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 14:35</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills =
below Rank 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Set the cost too cheap and for example, every =
Rank 7 Courtier </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; will have all</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the subskills within a year. At 500ep and only =
2 wks training </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; as is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; current cost it would take 10 wks and 2,500 ep. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Fine for it to be so cheap if you a rank 10 =
master, picking </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; up the last 2 or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 3 subskills. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; But not at Rank 7! </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2800 ep and 7 wks is a lot closer to what it =
should be to make players</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; choose between a rank in a spell or ritual and =
another subskill.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>One thing I hadn't considered when I suggested a =
variable cost depending on your rank when you get the extra subskill =
was the encouragement this gives characters to branch out early (unless =
we get complicated with how much later ranks cost).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This factor suggests that things will be better if =
extra subskills are only available over a small range of ranks for a =
fixed cost regardless of current rank e.g. 7+.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Helen Saggers wrote:

>There is nothing saying Boar of Oxen are 1 hex or for that matter that they
>are not, but then what the beastly doesn't say is what started this in the
>first place.
>  
>
Indeed --consistency and the DQ rules are often only nodding 
acquaintances. :-)

The Bestiary only mentions hexes when they are greater than 1.  The 
picture Andrew sent of the mounted fighter shows a one hex horse. Oxen 
aside, Boars have never been played as multi-hex (based on Shapechanger 
Boars).

Some multi-hex creatures have no Trample listed (e.g. Chimera); 
according to a strict reading of the rules then a Chimera can trample a 
1-hex creature initially for D+3 (D10 + size) but cannot then trample 
further because they have no trample listed in the Beastiary. :-)

Turning to another source: among the demon descriptions pretty much all 
those who have four feet have hooves listed, along with Close Combat 
base chances.

Of those with hooves or trample listed as attack forms Bune (Dragon), 
Marax (Bull), Marchosias ("Great Ox"), and Zagan (Bull) are listed as 
being greater than 1 hex in size.  The others with stampy feet include: 
Orobas (Horse), Buer (Centaur), Furfur (Stag), and Samgina ("a small 
ass").  It is hard to see how Samgina in particular gets to be 
multi-hex, and his description explicitly gives him trample. :-)

    - Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>  
> Note that Ranger only ever allows one primary environment, which you 
> may *change* for EP at any rank. This is not the same, so is not in 
> the above table.

Fair enough -- perhaps I misunderstood when initially sifting the skills 
for applicable ones.

Ranger allows changing of Primary during Ranking at a cost of 1 week and 
+50% EP (max 3000).  Any previously learnt primary can be switched back 
to for 500ep and 2 weeks in the environment.

At Rk 10 the Ranger can add new Primaries to thier pool for a cost of 
3000ep and 4 weeks.

Would we not want to make these extra primaries available for that same 
cost at below Rk 10 if other skills are allowing this?  (and that their 
cost would remain 3000ep and 4 weeks).

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Allow flying for Beast master trained animals trained to fly, as was
suggested and making control of a mount flying by magical effect (ei.
doesn't naturally fly) an ability gained with rank 7 in both Horsemanship
and Flying sounds okay to me.

 

As the aim is to encourage horse riding above low adventures, let's just set
a firm rule for how horses may flown

Don't change the Celestial wings spell, air mages have target entity fly
spells and a ritual which lets clouds carry entities, and witch/ binder can
instill in objects which could carry a horse.

This way you still need the right mage with the right spell, or an expensive
investment.

 

Higher Characters who want to take a horse can usually find a way to do so

As it stands if My binder wanted to fly a horse she would Petrify it,
Itemize it, and carry it that way. (The full size statue horse would be too
heavy to instill flight on.

This autumn Thorn, Aqualina, Arwin and Vanderhand used skinchanges and
carried the moused horses to the adventure location and back. 

Wild fires is an entity spell and speeds up travel to 20+ Miles an hour with
out riding you horse into the ground.

Players just need to know that having got the animal to the location the
result will be worth the expense, and the animal will not just die with the
first spell of the first combat. 

Then again I know of a Necro who would be up for an undead mount. :-)

 

Helen

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Allow flying for Beast master trained animals trained =
to fly,
as was suggested and making control of a mount flying by magical effect =
(ei.&nbsp;
doesn&#8217;t naturally fly) an ability gained with rank 7 in both =
Horsemanship
and Flying sounds okay to me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As the aim is to encourage horse riding above low =
adventures,
let&#8217;s just set a firm rule for how horses may =
flown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Don&#8217;t change the Celestial wings spell, air =
mages have
target entity fly spells and a ritual which lets clouds carry entities, =
and
witch/ binder can instill in objects which could carry a =
horse.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This way you still need the right mage with the right =
spell,
or an expensive investment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Higher Characters who want to take a horse can =
usually find
a way to do so<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>As it stands if My binder wanted to fly a horse she =
would
Petrify it, Itemize it, and carry it that way. (The full size statue =
horse
would be too heavy to instill flight on.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This autumn Thorn, Aqualina, Arwin and Vanderhand =
used
skinchanges and carried the moused horses to the adventure location and =
back. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Wild fires is an entity spell and speeds up travel to =
20+
Miles an hour with out riding you horse into the =
ground.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Players just need to know that having got the animal =
to the
location the result will be worth the expense, and the animal will not =
just die
with the first spell of the first combat. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Then again I know of a Necro who would be up for an =
undead
mount. </span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Helen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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As someone with Rank 10 Troubadour, I certainly didn't run out and buy
all the remaining subskills. Neither did Silverfoam, the other Rank 10+
Troubadour I know. I asquierd new skills on meeting interesting people
(or musical instruments). With Trouabdour / Courtier, each subskill is a
personality reflection, not a gaming option. Which of these skills give
big gaming advances to create a flat topped-out Rank 7? And does it
matter?

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2005 2:35 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10

Set the cost too cheap and for example, every Rank 7 Courtier will have
all the subskills within a year. At 500ep and only 2 wks training as is
the current cost it would take 10 wks and 2,500 ep. 
Fine for it to be so cheap if you a rank 10 master, picking up the last
2 or 3 subskills. 
But not at Rank 7! 
2800 ep and 7 wks is a lot closer to what it should be to make players
choose between a rank in a spell or ritual and another subskill.


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Current Ranger rules
Primary Environment
A ranger knows far more about the environment with which they are most
familiar. While in this primary environment the ranger's base chances
and formulas should be calculated as if they were 2 Ranks higher. A
ranger's initial primary environment is that in which they learnt the
skill. A ranger may later chose to change their primary environment
during ranking.
The ranger must train in the new environment, the ranking time is
increased by 1 week and the EP cost for this rank is increased by 50%
(to maximum of +3000 EP). To return to a previously learnt primary
environment the ranger must spend 500 EP and 2 weeks in the environment.
After rank 10 a ranger may learn a new environment by training for 4
weeks in the new environment and spending 3000 EP.


The reference to "new environment" in Rank 10+ is also in the < Rank 10
sentences, and all expound on the sentence "A ranger may later chose to
change their primary environment during ranking.". I also understand
that Rosemary's intent when re-writing this skill was to have a single
environment.

Its like a favourite colour. You can like red and blue and green (or the
other 4 colours), but blue is your favourite, no matter what rank of
colour consultant you are.

Again, if we want to change ranger, we can, but it's a different
subject.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 2:09 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10


Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>  
> Note that Ranger only ever allows one primary environment, which you
> may *change* for EP at any rank. This is not the same, so is not in 
> the above table.

Fair enough -- perhaps I misunderstood when initially sifting the skills

for applicable ones.

Ranger allows changing of Primary during Ranking at a cost of 1 week and

+50% EP (max 3000).  Any previously learnt primary can be switched back
to for 500ep and 2 weeks in the environment.

At Rk 10 the Ranger can add new Primaries to thier pool for a cost of 
3000ep and 4 weeks.

Would we not want to make these extra primaries available for that same 
cost at below Rk 10 if other skills are allowing this?  (and that their 
cost would remain 3000ep and 4 weeks).

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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P.S I'm experiencing delays of up to 20+ minutes between posting and seeing
on the list. Are other people experiencing this?
Not that I'm complaining or anything, just making people aware that there is
a significant time during which posts can cross.
 
Comments below.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 13:24
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10




========Numbers========
extra subskill costs:                      (existing @rk10) 
Armourer         5,000ep  (10,000) 
Beastmaster      5,000ep  (2,500) 
Courtier         1,000ep  (1,000) 
Mechanician      2,500ep  (1,500) 
Merchant         4,000ep  (1,500) 
Military Sci     3,000ep  (1,500) 
Spy (proposed)   2,500ep
Thief (proposed) 4,000ep
Troubadour       1,000ep  (500) 
Weaponsmith      5,000ep  (10,000) 
 
All take 4 weeks.
 
Available at any Rank. All EP & time halved at Rank 8 (or 10).
 
This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) for Rank
8+. Its simple, has a "logical" foundation, and feels right to me.
 
========Rationale========
 
I started with a guideline for cost of subskills being ~ Rank 4 ep & time.
This is 1,000 to 4,000 ep.
 
This means you will be at least Rank 5 before bothering to get subskills for
the sake of subskills, and probably Rank 7. 
 
 

I like this part - you can branch out early if you _really_ want to _now_
e.g. one-off training offer in rare subskill (assuming it isn't 8+
restricted). Can anyone see any skills that seem unreasonable with this
(given the additional rk8+ limit available)?

 
Some subskills aren't available at every rank. This makes them more
valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 2 ranks. Merchant is
every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I multiplied the ranks/subskill
times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used "every 2 ranks" to avoid a silly
number. With 10% rounding, this gives the above table. 
 
 

My currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand this last
part. Could you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is this trying to
account for the different utility of extra sub-skills for different skills?
 

 


 
I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time for Rank 8+ (or just Rank 10?).  
 

Or indeed Rank 9 (giving something special for each of the 3 master ranks)

 
 
 This gives some benefit for those who reach Master ranks, and a reason to
wait if you can.
 
Note that Ranger only ever allows one primary environment, which you may
*change* for EP at any rank. This is not the same, so is not in the above
table.
 
================================ 

I'll try to look at the detailed impact over the weekend.
 
Cheers
Errol 

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>P.S=20
I'm experiencing delays of up to 20+ minutes between posting and seeing =
on the=20
list. Are other people experiencing this?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>Not=20
that I'm complaining or anything, just making people aware that there =
is a=20
significant time during which posts can cross.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D215473701-08072005>Comments below.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy (DSL =
AK)=20
  [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 8 July 2005=20
  13:24<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
purchase of=20
  extra subskills below Rank 10<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  =
class=3D832570101-08072005>Numbers</SPAN></o:p></SPAN>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=
=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005>extra subskill costs:<SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  =
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  (existing @rk10)&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier =
New">Armourer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;5,000=
ep</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000080>=20
  (10,000)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New">Beastmaster&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  5,000ep&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT face=3D"Courier New"=20
  =
color=3D#000080>(2,500)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></=
DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier =
New">Courtier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000=
ep</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000080>=20
  (1,000)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New">Mechanician&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  2,500ep</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#000080>=20
  (1,500)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier =
New">Merchant&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;4,000=
ep</FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000080>=20
  (1,500)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Military=20
  Sci&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3,000ep</FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT =
face=3D"Courier New"=20
  color=3D#000080> =
(1,500)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Spy =
(proposed)&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  2,500ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT face=3D"Courier New">Thief=20
  (proposed)&nbsp;4,000ep</FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier =
New">Troubadour&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000ep</FONT><=
FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" color=3D#000080>=20
  (500)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New">Weaponsmith&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  5,000ep</FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;<FONT face=3D"Courier New" =
color=3D#000080>=20
  (10,000)</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>All take 4 =
weeks.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>Available at any Rank. All EP &amp; time =
halved at=20
  Rank 8 (or 10).</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>This closely matches current rates (except =

  Armourer/Weaponsmith) for&nbsp;Rank 8+. Its simple, has a "logical"=20
  foundation,&nbsp;and feels right to=20
  =
me.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></D=
IV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  =
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=
=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  =
class=3D832570101-08072005>Rationale</SPAN></o:p></SPAN>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>I started with a guideline for cost of =
subskills=20
  being ~&nbsp;Rank 4 ep &amp; time. This is 1,000 to 4,000=20
  ep.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>This means you will be at least Rank 5 =
before=20
  bothering to get subskills for the sake of subskills, and probably =
Rank=20
  7.<SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>I=20
like this part - you can branch out early if you _really_ want to _now_ =
e.g.=20
one-off training</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff>offer in rare =
subskill=20
(assuming it isn't 8+ restricted). Can anyone see any skills that seem=20
unreasonable with this (given the additional rk8+ limit=20
available)?</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>Some subskills aren't available at every =
rank. This=20
  makes them more valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every =
2 ranks.=20
  Merchant is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I multiplied =
the=20
  ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used "every 2 =
ranks" to=20
  avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this gives the above =
table.<SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BL=
OCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005>My=20
currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand this last =
part. Could=20
you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is this trying to account =
for the=20
different utility of extra sub-skills for different=20
skills?</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV><SPAN =

  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN =

  class=3D832570101-08072005>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time =
for Rank 8+=20
  (or just Rank 10?).&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>=
</BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Or=20
indeed Rank 9 (giving something special for each of the 3 master=20
ranks)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN =
class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;</SPAN>This=20
  gives some benefit for those who reach Master ranks, and a reason to =
wait if=20
  you can.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005>Note that Ranger only ever allows one =
primary=20
  environment, which you may *change* for EP at any rank. This is not =
the same,=20
  so is not in the above table.</SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></o:p>=
</SPAN>
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D832570101-08072005>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<SPAN=20
  class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
  =
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUO=
TE>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>I'll=20
try to look at the detailed impact&nbsp;over the=20
weekend.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C58363.E7CAB670--


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> Now... if I could only figure out what the $&%^ to do for Rk 10 Mech...

A wine bottle opener that always worked without leaving cork behind...
Maybe large, steam powered with a wood burner, and lots of grease.


Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Martin Dickson
> Sent: 6 July 2005 5:29 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10
> 
> Stephen Martin wrote:
> 
> >I've always thought of the special requirements for ranks 8, 9, and 10 as
> a "guild" thing.
> >
> >
> Yes, an in-game guild thing, but explained to me many years back as a
> campaign tool for ensuring that these ranks remian reasonably
> (believably?) rare, and more sought for character reasons than "power
> gaming" -- basically requiring more of a committment than just paying
> the ep.
> 
> We may not have always handled masterworks well but the system does seem
> to have worked OK-ish.
> 
> Now... if I could only figure out what the $&%^ to do for Rk 10 Mech...
> 
>     - Martin
> 
> --
> Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
> User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
> Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
> Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Jonathan Bean wrote:

>A wine bottle opener that always worked without leaving cork behind...
>Maybe large, steam powered with a wood burner, and lots of grease.
>  
>
Cool... a 5 ton, smoke belching, coal consuming, bottle opener.

Hmmm... going to be hard call between this and William's idea of 
building a fully mechanised thinking engine capable of rebellion... and 
probably taking over the world.

:-)

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Helen Saggers wrote:

>
> As the aim is to encourage horse riding above low adventures, let’s 
> just set a firm rule for how horses may flown...
>
All good.

> Don’t change the Celestial wings spell, air mages have target entity 
> fly spells...
>
If Air flying works on horseys and wings do not, I suggest that we have 
an unintentional inconsistency. We added the "Target: Sentient Entity" 
to wings on the assumption that non-sentients cannot control flight. The 
same restriction should be added to Air flying or removed from Celestial.

Clouds and instill flight are a different type of flying and unrealted 
for this purpose.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

> ========Numbers========
> ...
>  
> This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) 
> for Rank 8+.

What was the rationale for halving the Armourer and Weaponsmith costs 
please?

> I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time for Rank 8+ (or just Rank 10?).

I'd go with Rk 10 as it retains a reason for being the best, rather than 
the easier Rk 8.

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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The rationale for halving the armourer & weaponsmith cost of an extra
sub skill is that the formula gave a lower answer, and 10000ep always
seemed silly to me, so I was happy.

If the main driver of ranking armourer/weaponsmith is to increase the
number of subskills known, then maybe it should be high, but the
artifacts produced by these skills are rated by the rank, not the number
of subskills. The subskill limitation seems to be just frustrating
rather than beneficial. They are non-adventuring skills, anyway. I put
the idea of a rank 7 armourer with all armour categories (except
mithral/dragon???) in the who cares category.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

> ========Numbers=======> ...
>  
> This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith)
> for Rank 8+.

What was the rationale for halving the Armourer and Weaponsmith costs 
please?

> I suggested a discount of 50% ep and time for Rank 8+ (or just Rank 
> 10?).

I'd go with Rk 10 as it retains a reason for being the best, rather than

the easier Rk 8.

Cheers,
Martin


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Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote:

>On the other hand, what do we want.
>  
>
To make mounted combat more possible / desirable.  To make Warhorses 
scarier / to prevent oddness like keeping the warhorse out of close with 
a dagger. :-)

I'd be very interested to see a test combat using 2-hex warhorses and 
(per one of William's other suggestions) extended range polearms 
(including lances).

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Troubadour gets a subskill at every rank. The value of a subskill is
thus less than a rank.
Armourer gets a subskill at every second rank. The value of a subskill
is thus less than 2 ranks. Subskills are rarer, so more valuable than if
available every rank.
=20
e.g. Mil Sci. sub skills gained every 2 ranks. Rank 4 cost =3D 1500ep. 2 =
x
1500 =3D 3000ep. It costs 3000ep to get an extra subskill in Mil Sci.
Halved at Rank ?10?.
=20
Andrew
=20
=20
NB: subskill gained at 0,3, 6, 8, 10, which is every 2 ranks for Rank
5+, which is the rank range we care about for this

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Errol Cavit
=09
	=20

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
[mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
		Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 13:24
		To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
		Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank
10
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09
	=09
		=20

		Some subskills aren't available at every rank. This
makes them more valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 2
ranks. Merchant is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I
multiplied the ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I
used "every 2 ranks" to avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this
gives the above table.=20
		=20
		=20

	My currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand
this last part. Could you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is
this trying to account for the different utility of extra sub-skills for
different skills?
	=20

		 Errol=20


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005>Troubadour gets a subskill at every rank. The =
value of=20
a subskill is thus less than a rank.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005>Armourer gets a subskill at every second =
rank. The=20
value of a subskill is thus less than 2 ranks. Subskills are rarer, so =
more=20
valuable than if available every rank.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D303324803-08072005>e.g.=20
Mil Sci. sub skills gained every 2 ranks. Rank 4 cost =3D 1500ep. 2 x =
1500 =3D=20
3000ep. It costs 3000ep to get an extra subskill in Mil Sci. Halved at =
Rank=20
?10?.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D303324803-08072005>NB:&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D303324803-08072005>subskill gained at 0,3, 6, 8, =
10, which is=20
every 2 ranks for Rank&nbsp;5+, which is the rank range we care about =
for=20
this</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Errol=20
  Cavit<BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy =
(DSL AK)=20
    [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 8 July 2005=20
    13:24<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
purchase of=20
    extra subskills below Rank 10<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005>
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005>
    <DIV><FONT=20
    =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o=
:p></SPAN>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></=
BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005>Some subskills aren't available at every =
rank. This=20
    makes them more valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are =
every 2=20
    ranks. Merchant is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I =
multiplied=20
    the ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used =
"every 2=20
    ranks" to avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this gives the =
above=20
    table.<SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
    color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
    class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCK=
QUOTE>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
  class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005>My=20
  currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand this last =
part.=20
  Could you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is this trying to =
account=20
  for the different utility of extra sub-skills for different=20
  skills?</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
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  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
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  class=3D215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN=20
    class=3D215473701-08072005>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p><SPAN=20
    class=3D832570101-08072005><SPAN class=3D215473701-08072005><FONT=20
    =
color=3D#0000ff>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BLOC=
KQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
------_=_NextPart_001_01C58370.8CE56B93--


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You're only having problems because you're attempting to satisfy your own
needs -- Hagan has had no worries for Rank 8+ because he has a patron ...
someone who says "I want this done" & is prepared to wait several seasons
before a working prototype is available.

> Cool... a 5 ton, smoke belching, coal consuming, bottle opener.
>
> Hmmm... going to be hard call between this and William's idea of
> building a fully mechanised thinking engine capable of rebellion... and
> probably taking over the world.

Hagans suggestions...

a solar-powered piza oven;  a working fire engine;  and I've heard dwarves
mention a "holy gruel" of  seige-warfare ...  a steam-powered cannon that
kills more enemy than the number of cannoneers.  A high-powered thrower,
perhaps powered by springs, that launches nets cold-iron chain nets at mages
or suspected mages.

And if you *can* get a machine to think &/or be self-propelled
[Mechanician-talk for hiding a goblin in a box with levers] ... why not a
machine that disassembles mechanical devices that are not by master
mechanicians ... or which do not bear the appropriate guild logo.

Speaking of which... everybody has heard of a "Deus ex machina", but I
reckon you'd have to be *really* good to build a device that stuffs deuses
into said machinas in the first place  -- I suggest that you start with a
scale model that stuffs pimento into olives & then scale it up.


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OK, got that now thanks.
 
So this doesn't explicitly take into account that e.g. having an extra
Merchant speciality isn't that useful, but knowing how to make another type
of weapon is.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 15:53
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10


Troubadour gets a subskill at every rank. The value of a subskill is thus
less than a rank.
Armourer gets a subskill at every second rank. The value of a subskill is
thus less than 2 ranks. Subskills are rarer, so more valuable than if
available every rank.
 
e.g. Mil Sci. sub skills gained every 2 ranks. Rank 4 cost = 1500ep. 2 x
1500 = 3000ep. It costs 3000ep to get an extra subskill in Mil Sci. Halved
at Rank ?10?.
 
Andrew
 
 
NB: subskill gained at 0,3, 6, 8, 10, which is every 2 ranks for Rank 5+,
which is the rank range we care about for this

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 13:24
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10






 

Some subskills aren't available at every rank. This makes them more
valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 2 ranks. Merchant is
every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I multiplied the ranks/subskill
times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used "every 2 ranks" to avoid a silly
number. With 10% rounding, this gives the above table. 
 
 

My currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand this last
part. Could you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is this trying to
account for the different utility of extra sub-skills for different skills?
 

 Errol 


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<DIV><SPAN class=335140704-08072005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>OK, 
got that now thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=335140704-08072005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=335140704-08072005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So 
this doesn't explicitly take into account that e.g. having an extra Merchant 
speciality isn't that useful, but knowing how to make another type of weapon 
is.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) 
  [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 8 July 2005 
  15:53<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] purchase of 
  extra subskills below Rank 10<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005>Troubadour gets a subskill at every rank. The value 
  of a subskill is thus less than a rank.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005>Armourer gets a subskill at every second rank. The 
  value of a subskill is thus less than 2 ranks. Subskills are rarer, so more 
  valuable than if available every rank.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=303324803-08072005>e.g. 
  Mil Sci. sub skills gained every 2 ranks. Rank 4 cost = 1500ep. 2 x 1500 = 
  3000ep. It costs 3000ep to get an extra subskill in Mil Sci. Halved at Rank 
  ?10?.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=303324803-08072005>NB:&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2><SPAN class=303324803-08072005>subskill gained at 0,3, 6, 8, 10, which 
  is every 2 ranks for Rank&nbsp;5+, which is the rank range we care about for 
  this</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
    face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of 
    </B>Errol Cavit<BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
    style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
      size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) 
      [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 8 July 2005 
      13:24<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] purchase 
      of extra subskills below Rank 10<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005>
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005>
      <DIV><FONT 
      color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>
      <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN class=215473701-08072005><FONT 
      color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
    style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005>Some subskills aren't available at every rank. 
      This makes them more valuable. Armourer, Weaponsmith and Mil Sci are every 
      2 ranks. Merchant is every 3 Ranks. Beastmaster is every 5 ranks. I 
      multiplied the ranks/subskill times the Rank 4 ep. For Beastmaster I used 
      "every 2 ranks" to avoid a silly number. With 10% rounding, this gives the 
      above table.<SPAN class=215473701-08072005><FONT 
      color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
      class=215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
      class=215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
    class=832570101-08072005><SPAN class=215473701-08072005>My 
    currently-stressed-and-overworked brain doesn't understand this last part. 
    Could you set out the steps for say Mil Sci please? Is this trying to 
    account for the different utility of extra sub-skills for different 
    skills?</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV dir=ltr><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
    class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
    class=215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
    class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
    class=215473701-08072005></SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
    style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN 
      class=215473701-08072005>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN><SPAN 
      style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p><SPAN 
      class=832570101-08072005><SPAN class=215473701-08072005><FONT 
      color=#0000ff>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></o:p></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I could live with something like this, Courtier and Troubadour are supposed
to have many sub skills at low ranks it is why you get 3 at 0.

It is much the same for the proposed spy and thief just the cost below puts
things even more in to the rank 4+ area.

Armourer, Beastmaster, Merchant, Mil sci, Weaponsmith, all have rank, more
than subskill dependant effects.

Mechanician, those subskills that are game affecting are rank affected.

If we limit some subskills in some Skills to higher ranks, and give say a
20, 30, 50% discount for ranks 8, 9, and 10. Then there is some point to
waiting until then for those who wish to specialize.

I'm just not sure if there will be any point to adventurers going beyond
rank 5 troubadour if we did this, other than to say they are a master
troubadour but then again maybe that's as it should be.

 

Helen

 

========Numbers========

extra subskill costs:

Armourer        5,000ep

Beastmaster     5,000ep 

Courtier        1,000ep

Mechanician     2,500ep

Merchant        4,000ep

Military Sci    3,000ep

Spy (proposed)  2,500ep

Thief (proposed)4,000ep

Troubadour      1,000ep

Weaponsmith     5,000ep

 

All take 4 weeks.

 

Available at any Rank. All EP & time halved at Rank 8 (or 10).

 

This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) forRank 8+.
Its simple, has a "logical" foundation, and feels right to me.

 

Andrew

 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I could live with something like this, Courtier and Troubadour =
are
supposed to have many sub skills at low ranks it is why you get 3 at =
0.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It is much the same for the proposed spy and thief =
just the cost
below puts things even more in to the rank 4+ =
area.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Armourer, Beastmaster, Merchant, Mil sci, =
Weaponsmith, all
have rank, more than subskill dependant =
effects.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mechanician, those subskills that are game affecting =
are
rank affected.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If we limit some subskills in some Skills to higher =
ranks, and
give say a 20, 30, 50% discount for ranks 8, 9, and 10. Then there is =
some
point to waiting until then for those who wish to =
specialize.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I&#8217;m just not sure if there will be any point to =
adventurers
going beyond rank 5 troubadour if we did this, other than to say they =
are a
master troubadour but then again maybe that&#8217;s as it should =
be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Helen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DNumbers=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>extra subskill =
costs:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Armourer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
5,000ep</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Beastmaster&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
5,000ep&nbsp;</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Courtier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
1,000ep</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Mechanician&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
2,500ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Merchant&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
4,000ep</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Military
Sci&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Spy
(proposed)&nbsp; 2,500ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Thief
(proposed)4,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Troubadour&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,000ep</s=
pan></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'>Weaponsmith&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
5,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All take 4 =
weeks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Available at any Rank. All EP &amp; =
time
halved at Rank 8 (or 10).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This closely matches current rates =
(except
Armourer/Weaponsmith) forRank 8+. Its simple, has a &quot;logical&quot;
foundation,&nbsp;and feels right to me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

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