Helen Saggers wrote:

>  
>
> I could live with something like this, Courtier and Troubadour are 
> supposed to have many sub skills at low ranks it is why you get 3 at 0.
>
Hi Helen,

3 sub-skills were granted at Rk 0 in the revised Troubadour to replicate 
existing functionality and to make conversion simple -- PCs would have 
the same number of sub-skills that they already possessed. Previous 
version of the skill gave Bardic Voice (and Prestidigitation if I recall 
correctly) automatically along with one of the player's choice for a 
total of 3 at Rk 0.

Ditto Courtier conversion from Courtesan --  Seduction and 1 pick at Rk 
0 for a total of 2 at Rk 0 (and the reason that the two skills grant 
different qtys at Rk 0).

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
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> If GM's want more riding in their adventures then address 
> that issue eg setting adventure on Alusia, close to guild, 
> having horses readily buyable when they get there, punish the 
> conspicuous fliers by locals/society.

Or more dangerous skies :0-)

Personally I tend to think that the flying spells are far too good,
durations are long, EM's are cheap and the only downside is the fatigue
costs of getting the whole party flying. Personally I think flying
should be more like the speed of birds, and the fatigue costs of walking
:-)

I think if we want people using horses we should look to fix these
issues, if we don't want to change flying we have to accept horses will
be the exception not the rule. 

Mandos
/s


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> As someone with Rank 10 Troubadour, I certainly didn't run 
> out and buy all the remaining subskills. Neither did 
> Silverfoam, the other Rank 10+ Troubadour I know. I asquierd 
> new skills on meeting interesting people (or musical 
> instruments). With Trouabdour / Courtier, each subskill is a 
> personality reflection, not a gaming option. Which of these 
> skills give big gaming advances to create a flat topped-out 
> Rank 7? And does it matter?

Just as a small question. Given that in Troubadour/Courtier, you can
rebuy subskills, should there be a limit applied? 

Not that I think an effective rank 40 flute player is going to be game
breaking but it is something to consider. 

Mandos
/s


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> >A wine bottle opener that always worked without leaving cork 
> behind... 
> >Maybe large, steam powered with a wood burner, and lots of grease.
> >  
> >
> Cool... a 5 ton, smoke belching, coal consuming, bottle opener.
> 
> Hmmm... going to be hard call between this and William's idea of 
> building a fully mechanised thinking engine capable of 
> rebellion... and 
> probably taking over the world.

Go with the bottle opener, otherwise people might mistake you for a
binder......

Mandos
/s


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Im writing up an adventure for next session, low-bunny doing good works
throughout Cazala and Ive looked in the wiki site and cannot find
anything about these towns. Does anyone have rough populations & any
sites of interest in these.

Does Regars Keep have an town by it or is it stand alone ?

Cheers Noel


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Just as a small question. Given that in Troubadour/Courtier, you can
rebuy subskills, should there be a limit applied? 

Not that I think an effective rank 40 flute player is going to be game
breaking but it is something to consider. 

Mandos
----------------

Putting on a cunning "evil megalomaniacal troubadour" hat (with bells):

While a Troubadour can't raise their subskills above Rk 10 even by
rebuying subskills, a Rank 7 Troubadour could buy all their (10)
subskills to Rank 10, for a measly 500*3*10 ep (under current costs),
saving 500ep! The subtle ones will buy all ten subskills to Rank 8, plus
their "Rank 8" subskill, for 500*(10+2) ep, but it will cost them an
extra 2,100ep.

Of course, they'll be mocked and taunted by *Master* hecklers, for being
jumped-up journeymen, but still...

I can live with a career path for the gifted and a second-class
existence for the wannabes - its better than being stalled at Rank 7
permanently because they offended the Master at their guild.

Of course, this is all a subtle argument for subskills costing more for
Rank 7- than Rank 8+ (or 10).

Andrew


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Hi Noel,

Have a look at the top of the Carzala page:
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Carzala

This info is from the Frontiers booklet and may be out of date for our 
campaign, but is a good starting point.  Letoville I have not heard of. :-)

Cheers,
Martin

Noel Livingston (DSL AK) wrote:

>Im writing up an adventure for next session, low-bunny doing good works
>throughout Cazala and Ive looked in the wiki site and cannot find
>anything about these towns. Does anyone have rough populations & any
>sites of interest in these.
>
>Does Regars Keep have an town by it or is it stand alone ?
>
>Cheers Noel
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>  
>

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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good points Mandos,

It would help me to know how common 'flying' is in the game. PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe NPCs using magic to travel?

Ian

> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2005/07/11 Mon PM 01:15:14 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses
> 
> > If GM's want more riding in their adventures then address
> > that issue eg setting adventure on Alusia, close to guild,
> > having horses readily buyable when they get there, punish the
> > conspicuous fliers by locals/society.
> 
> Or more dangerous skies :0-)
> 
> Personally I tend to think that the flying spells are far too good,
> durations are long, EM's are cheap and the only downside is the fatigue
> costs of getting the whole party flying. Personally I think flying
> should be more like the speed of birds, and the fatigue costs of walking
> :-)
> 
> I think if we want people using horses we should look to fix these
> issues, if we don't want to change flying we have to accept horses will
> be the exception not the rule.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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> good points Mandos,
> 
> It would help me to know how common 'flying' is in the game. 
> PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe NPCs using magic to travel?

Flying is definatly very common from a PC perspective, Celestial being
one of the more commom collages and flying (in one form or another)
being one of the more common abilities out there. 

For example one of my parties this season recently flew 2 miles down
rather than wait for a lift, and the other party (all low characters)
went to see the Lord of the Bats rather than use horses to go 60 miles
even though a number of characters had never flown before (Yes they just
about all sustained injuries while landing). So definatly a culture of
flight there. 

From a PC perspective, on Medium to high games the NPC's usually have
some form of flight depending on the nature of the game. Among GM's who
use high fantasy flying is definatly an NPC tool. Among those who play
dark realism or low fantasy flying is much less common although in many
cases the NPC's do not need to fly they live there :0-)

Just as an adendum, people mentioned that playing close to the guild
will cut out the flying. In the current session I am GM'ing two parties
both games on the frontiers of Allusia Map and both within 100 miles of
the Guild. Both parties flew (although one group will be walking back).
One party was threatened with some form of flying nasty that hunted down
Michealine knights and the other was threatened with harpies. 

Without having the Lord of the bats explode killing all his apprentices
or a magical fog restricting flying vision there is not really much more
I co do to encourage horseriding, and still they chose to fly. 

Mandos
/s


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Letoville is a new village at the north end of Cazala, on the road to 
Ranke.
When the 1st wave of refuges came out of Brastor (998?), and it became 
obvious they weren't going home again soon, Duke Leto arranged for a big 
chunk of forest to be cleared (about 3 hexes on the map) and a new village 
constructed.  IE make the refugees work for their food and have shelter 
for them at the end of it.

Andrew ran a game in the forest near there recently (last year?)

Regars Keep is fortified and has never had much 'civilian village' 
associated with it.  Since the trouble with Rashak and the building of 
Dark wall it has been pretty much army only. 

Various charactors have ridden through Southgate and none of them remember 
anything about it.

Rosemary
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Letoville is a new village at the north
end of Cazala, on the road to Ranke.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When the 1st wave of refuges came out
of Brastor (998?), and it became obvious they weren't going home again
soon, Duke Leto arranged for a big chunk of forest to be cleared (about
3 hexes on the map) and a new village constructed. &nbsp;IE make the refugees
work for their food and have shelter for them at the end of it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Andrew ran a game in the forest near
there recently (last year?)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regars Keep is fortified and has never
had much 'civilian village' associated with it. &nbsp;Since the trouble
with Rashak and the building of Dark wall it has been pretty much army
only. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Various charactors have ridden through
Southgate and none of them remember anything about it.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
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Thanks Mandos...

Lord of the Bats on holiday. Or just says "No, god gave you feet to do more than walk up my tower". ;-D

I like the idea of Flying being a 'medium' fatigue activity or higher depending on buffeting... But it is hard to consider not flying at 40 miles per hour when the alternative is riding or walking at about 25 miles per day.


Ian


> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2005/07/11 Mon PM 02:56:40 GMT+12:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses
> 
> > good points Mandos,
> >
> > It would help me to know how common 'flying' is in the game.
> > PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe NPCs using magic to travel?
> 
> Flying is definatly very common from a PC perspective, Celestial being
> one of the more commom collages and flying (in one form or another)
> being one of the more common abilities out there.
> 
> For example one of my parties this season recently flew 2 miles down
> rather than wait for a lift, and the other party (all low characters)
> went to see the Lord of the Bats rather than use horses to go 60 miles
> even though a number of characters had never flown before (Yes they just
> about all sustained injuries while landing). So definatly a culture of
> flight there.
> 
> From a PC perspective, on Medium to high games the NPC's usually have
> some form of flight depending on the nature of the game. Among GM's who
> use high fantasy flying is definatly an NPC tool. Among those who play
> dark realism or low fantasy flying is much less common although in many
> cases the NPC's do not need to fly they live there :0-)
> 
> Just as an adendum, people mentioned that playing close to the guild
> will cut out the flying. In the current session I am GM'ing two parties
> both games on the frontiers of Allusia Map and both within 100 miles of
> the Guild. Both parties flew (although one group will be walking back).
> One party was threatened with some form of flying nasty that hunted down
> Michealine knights and the other was threatened with harpies.
> 
> Without having the Lord of the bats explode killing all his apprentices
> or a magical fog restricting flying vision there is not really much more
> I co do to encourage horseriding, and still they chose to fly.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>For example one of my parties this season recently flew 2 miles down
>rather than wait for a lift...
>
We were going to trust their two mile tall dumbwaiter?!  I'd much rather 
trust my flying than some mad Mechanician. :-)

>Both parties flew (although one group will be walking back).
>One party was threatened with some form of flying nasty that hunted down
>Michealine knights...
>
Which we have no reason to believe that we'd be more likely to outrun on 
horses mind you -- and there was a time pressure introduced of another 
group (probably on horses) who we wished to outpace.

Anyway... I haven't spent 78 weeks getting my flying _ritual_ to Rank 12 
and learnt flying to Rank 10 to spend days bouncing around on the saddle 
of some deranged equine that smells bad and bites.

Cheers,
Martin (for Mortimer)

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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RMansfield@ingnz.com wrote:

> Various charactors have ridden through Southgate and none of them 
> remember anything about it.

"We went to Southgate, but it was closed".

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> Which we have no reason to believe that we'd be more likely 
> to outrun on 
> horses mind you -- and there was a time pressure introduced 
> of another 
> group (probably on horses) who we wished to outpace.

It was not a complaint, merely an observation :-) 

I have no real problem with either party flying it was more an object
point for the 'close to Seagate adventures' not being a solution to the
horse issue. 

My apologies for any implied complaint in regards to your characters
actions. 

Mandos
/s


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err and it's Letoston not Letoville.

But given it's only a few years old no doubt it gets called alsorts of 
things.  I bet if you asked for newville that's where you'd be sent.

Rose
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">err and it's Letoston not Letoville.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">But given it's only a few years old
no doubt it gets called alsorts of things. &nbsp;I bet if you asked for
newville that's where you'd be sent.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rose</font>
--=_alternative 0014A6ADCC25703B_=--


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The trouble is that Flying is like driving a car - it just happens, and
is easy to use to get from A to B. Cars beat horses everytime (except
for travelling in forests). Its also very convenient for GMs.

Either Flying stops being like driving a car, or Flying is always the
best option.

Having been shot out of the sky, or one's flying turned off 9 seconds
above ground (or 4 seconds in Mortimer's recent case) obviously is
insufficient reason to change attitude - perhaps it needs to happen more
than once...



Andrew


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Some characters make a point of never riding and always flying (Air mages especially), many senior
characters have more skill in Flying than in riding.  Mainly because they fly most adventures and
almost never ride.  This is self perpetuating because their skill in riding never develops and
they would prefer to fly than to be thrown from a horse.
Most Halfings and Giants quite reasonably play that they can't ride standard horses so flying or
walking are the only options.

When travelling you have a choice of covering 20 miles in a day or covering 20 miles in 30
minutes.  The choice is an easy one.  Especially as riding is usually more dangerous - bandits on
the roads, local authorities to deal with, inns to try and leave intact, party members dispersing
at every opportunity, etc...
Flying has the much safer dangers of damage on landing and backfires.  But in general you face
less issues because you spend less time (in-game and real) travelling.

Breaking people of their flying habits is not going to happen.  They are far too ingrained to the
characters and the players.

If we want to encourage the use of horses then I believe we need to make it easier to transport
your favourite horse to the adventure region, or make the local hire of horses unreasonably cheap
and easy.
I appreciate how some players will feel gipped that their special ability to take their horse with
them has just been made redundent, but I'm sure they can be compensated for their reasonable
grievance.
That's assuming we do want to encourage more people to use horses.


Re Why NPCs don't fly
- As mentioned, most of them are at home or travelling around nearby.
- Flying is stupidly dangerous unless you are very good at it.  Only loony adventurers with
miraculous healing and staunch companions would fly everywhere.  And Air mages but everyone knows
how sensible air mages are...
- Dangerous things fly - dragons, griffons, harpies, adventurers,... you'd have to be loony to
fly...(refer above)
- Flying is a good way of attracting attention, lots of it bad.
- Casting magic several times a day is stupidly dangerous unless you are very good at it and/or
have knowledgable people around to look after you and help you recover from the consequences.


Cheers, Stephen.


Mandos Mitchinson said:
>> good points Mandos,
>>
>> It would help me to know how common 'flying' is in the game.
>> PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe NPCs using magic to travel?
>
> Flying is definatly very common from a PC perspective, Celestial being one of the more commom
> collages and flying (in one form or another) being one of the more common abilities out there.
>
> For example one of my parties this season recently flew 2 miles down rather than wait for a
> lift, and the other party (all low characters) went to see the Lord of the Bats rather than use
> horses to go 60 miles even though a number of characters had never flown before (Yes they just
> about all sustained injuries while landing). So definatly a culture of flight there.
>
>>From a PC perspective, on Medium to high games the NPC's usually have
> some form of flight depending on the nature of the game. Among GM's who use high fantasy flying
> is definatly an NPC tool. Among those who play dark realism or low fantasy flying is much less
> common although in many cases the NPC's do not need to fly they live there :0-)
>
> Just as an adendum, people mentioned that playing close to the guild will cut out the flying. In
> the current session I am GM'ing two parties both games on the frontiers of Allusia Map and both
> within 100 miles of the Guild. Both parties flew (although one group will be walking back). One
> party was threatened with some form of flying nasty that hunted down Michealine knights and the
> other was threatened with harpies.
>
> Without having the Lord of the bats explode killing all his apprentices or a magical fog
> restricting flying vision there is not really much more I co do to encourage horseriding, and
> still they chose to fly.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>My apologies for any implied complaint in regards to your characters
>actions. 
>  
>
No complaint inferred -- just offering context.  If there had been no 
apparent time constraint some members of the party may have preferred to 
ride given the closeness to Seagate and (for some PCs) their homes.

Even Mortimer may have been tempted to take out his Nightmare "Ember" -- 
who's kinda like a horse... 'course she flies... so, umm... where does 
that fit?

    - Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 14:57
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses
> 
> 
> > good points Mandos,
> > 
> > It would help me to know how common 'flying' is in the game. 
> > PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe NPCs using magic 
> to travel?
> 
> Flying is definatly very common from a PC perspective, Celestial being
> one of the more commom collages and flying (in one form or another)
> being one of the more common abilities out there. 
> 
> For example one of my parties this season recently flew 2 miles down
> rather than wait for a lift, and the other party (all low characters)
> went to see the Lord of the Bats rather than use horses to go 60 miles
> even though a number of characters had never flown before 
> (Yes they just
> about all sustained injuries while landing). So definatly a culture of
> flight there. 
> 

Agreed. 
Note the players know that they will be expected to fly at higher levels, so
start learning early.

> From a PC perspective, on Medium to high games the NPC's usually have
> some form of flight depending on the nature of the game. 
> Among GM's who
> use high fantasy flying is definatly an NPC tool. Among those who play
> dark realism or low fantasy flying is much less common 
> although in many
> cases the NPC's do not need to fly they live there :0-)
> 

An important point, not many local powers have domains that can't be
controlled with the assistance of a lordly horse-based courier network.
There is a culture of having enough local control that higher lords [don't
need/can't justify the cost of] swift flexible movement. They are more
likely to use portal networks if available (or if a network is available it
encourages more central control.
I would expect Celestials would be common in the service of higher lords
(where culturally appropriate), due to what they offer (flying couriers, see
invis, defence spell etc)


> Just as an adendum, people mentioned that playing close to the guild
> will cut out the flying. In the current session I am GM'ing 
> two parties
> both games on the frontiers of Allusia Map and both within 
> 100 miles of
> the Guild. Both parties flew (although one group will be 
> walking back).
> One party was threatened with some form of flying nasty that 
> hunted down
> Michealine knights and the other was threatened with harpies. 
> 
> Without having the Lord of the bats explode killing all his 
> apprentices
> or a magical fog restricting flying vision there is not 
> really much more
> I co do to encourage horseriding, and still they chose to fly. 
> 

If you're off-plane you can impose an outside limit (nasty beasts, high wind
at 15ft, lightning bolts at anything moving faster than a galloping horse)
as a 'hint', but that tends to feel artificial. I have no problem with such
measures if it adds to the game, but the GM should make sure any one-trick
flying characters understand this before signing up. My celestial has been
turned away at least once because the GM said the adventure wouldn't work
with flying available.

Although you'd think low characters would like the time on adventure to
enable ranking of talents ;-)

One factor about having horses are they are a valuable thing you are
responsible for that can limit your options. Players are wary for this
reason I think (even if the GM doesn't plan to let this become an issue, the
players know their characters can't ignore this factor), and possibly don't
take into account enough the horse-based culture the characters come from.

Making mounts an exception to the normal rules about MR is a very clumsy way
to try to address these issues I feel.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 14:57</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; good points Mandos,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; It would help me to know how common =
'flying' is in the game. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; PCs use it a lot. How often to PCs observe =
NPCs using magic </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to travel?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Flying is definatly very common from a PC =
perspective, Celestial being</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; one of the more commom collages and flying (in =
one form or another)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; being one of the more common abilities out =
there. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; For example one of my parties this season =
recently flew 2 miles down</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rather than wait for a lift, and the other =
party (all low characters)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; went to see the Lord of the Bats rather than =
use horses to go 60 miles</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; even though a number of characters had never =
flown before </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (Yes they just</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; about all sustained injuries while landing). So =
definatly a culture of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; flight there. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agreed. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note the players know that they will be expected to =
fly at higher levels, so start learning early.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From a PC perspective, on Medium to high games =
the NPC's usually have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; some form of flight depending on the nature of =
the game. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Among GM's who</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; use high fantasy flying is definatly an NPC =
tool. Among those who play</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; dark realism or low fantasy flying is much less =
common </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; although in many</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; cases the NPC's do not need to fly they live =
there :0-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An important point, not many local powers have =
domains that can't be controlled with the assistance of a lordly =
horse-based courier network. There is a culture of having enough local =
control that higher lords [don't need/can't justify the cost of] swift =
flexible movement. They are more likely to use portal networks if =
available (or if a network is available it encourages more central =
control.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I would expect Celestials would be common in the =
service of higher lords (where culturally appropriate), due to what =
they offer (flying couriers, see invis, defence spell etc)</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Just as an adendum, people mentioned that =
playing close to the guild</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; will cut out the flying. In the current session =
I am GM'ing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; two parties</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; both games on the frontiers of Allusia Map and =
both within </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 100 miles of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the Guild. Both parties flew (although one =
group will be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; walking back).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; One party was threatened with some form of =
flying nasty that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; hunted down</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Michealine knights and the other was threatened =
with harpies. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Without having the Lord of the bats explode =
killing all his </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; apprentices</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; or a magical fog restricting flying vision =
there is not </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; really much more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I co do to encourage horseriding, and still =
they chose to fly. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If you're off-plane you can impose an outside limit =
(nasty beasts, high wind at 15ft, lightning bolts at anything moving =
faster than a galloping horse) as a 'hint', but that tends to feel =
artificial. I have no problem with such measures if it adds to the =
game, but the GM should make sure any one-trick flying characters =
understand this before signing up. My celestial has been turned away at =
least once because the GM said the adventure wouldn't work with flying =
available.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Although you'd think low characters would like the =
time on adventure to enable ranking of talents ;-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>One factor about having horses are they are a =
valuable thing you are responsible for that can limit your options. =
Players are wary for this reason I think (even if the GM doesn't plan =
to let this become an issue, the players know their characters can't =
ignore this factor), and possibly don't take into account enough the =
horse-based culture the characters come from.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Making mounts an exception to the normal rules about =
MR is a very clumsy way to try to address these issues I feel.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 15:36
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] letoville, southgate, regars keep
> 
> 
> RMansfield@ingnz.com wrote:
> 
> > Various charactors have ridden through Southgate and none of them 
> > remember anything about it.
> 
> "We went to Southgate, but it was closed".
> 

"It was worse than Brastor - before it was liberated"

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A HREF="mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 15:36</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] letoville, southgate, regars keep</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; RMansfield@ingnz.com wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Various charactors have ridden through Southgate and none of them </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; remember anything about it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &quot;We went to Southgate, but it was closed&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&quot;It was worse than Brastor - before it was liberated&quot;</FONT>
</P>

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Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>I think if we want people using horses we should look to fix these
>issues, if we don't want to change flying we have to accept horses will
>be the exception not the rule. 
>  
>
Back to "what do we want" ?

I've found flying when I'm GMing to be an easy way to get a party a far 
distance with a minimum of roleplaying  -- which may sound like an odd 
advantage I'll grant.  Have them go by horse and they'll want to know 
the name of every inn and what's on the menu, and keep they'll stopping 
to chat with locals... and before you know it several sessions have been 
consumed by journeying to the adventure site. :-)

I'd have no issue with reducing the average flying speed or upping the 
FT costs (or at least confirming those FT costs) -- but would prefer not 
to do this unless / until we have a clear idea of the issue being addressed.

If we did reduce flying speeds  -- and they became as you said "more 
like the speed of birds", then I'd also want us to do away with the 
silly catapulting people through the sky they currently do and integrate 
them properly with combat etc...  :-)

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Stephen Martin wrote:

>Breaking people of their flying habits is not going to happen.  They are far too ingrained to the
>characters and the players.
>  
>
After 20 years we've suddenly realised that our lives are incomplete 
without more horses?  :-)

William's original comments were around making mounts more survivable; I 
agree, I like having cavalry in the game -- I just don't see a burning 
need to pressure PCs into using horses.

Encourage low levels to ride, sure.  Limit the the amount of NPC flying 
available to them.  Lord of Bats: "You're going how far?! Nope, sorry, 
too tired tonight!".

Encourage high levels who can a) fly themselves and b) are apt to 
discover they need to traverse 6000 frikkin miles of some uncharted 
plane to complete a quest?  Or c) find themselves banished back to 
Alusia and thousands of miles away from anywhere charted?

Fine... but it's going to need a substantially large culture change... 
and we still haven't had a clear statement of the problem. 

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 16:15
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses
> 
> 
> Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> 
> >I think if we want people using horses we should look to fix these
> >issues, if we don't want to change flying we have to accept 
> horses will
> >be the exception not the rule. 
> >  
> >
> Back to "what do we want" ?
> 
> I've found flying when I'm GMing to be an easy way to get a 
> party a far 
> distance with a minimum of roleplaying  -- which may sound 
> like an odd 
> advantage I'll grant.  Have them go by horse and they'll want to know 
> the name of every inn and what's on the menu, and keep 
> they'll stopping 
> to chat with locals... and before you know it several 
> sessions have been 
> consumed by journeying to the adventure site. :-)
> 
> I'd have no issue with reducing the average flying speed or 
> upping the 
> FT costs (or at least confirming those FT costs) -- but would 
> prefer not 
> to do this unless / until we have a clear idea of the issue 
> being addressed.
> 

Sensible words.


> If we did reduce flying speeds  -- and they became as you said "more 
> like the speed of birds", then I'd also want us to do away with the 
> silly catapulting people through the sky they currently do 
> and integrate 
> them properly with combat etc...  :-)
> 

Yes, one benefit of the current speed is that if you try to fly during
ground-based combat the GM tends to take steps to make sure they don't have
to deal with 3-D combat (this normally hurts, and rightly so.)

The couple of times that I've been involved in aeriel combat it's been
successful (as a role-playing experience) because no-one tried to count
hexes or be a stickler for rules. I think we could spend a lot of time
fiddling around trying to develop rules, and find them very tiresome if
people followed them strictly. I'd rather finish off various other things
(like Spy and Thief) before we tackle this.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 16:15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Flying Horses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;I think if we want people using horses we =
should look to fix these</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;issues, if we don't want to change flying =
we have to accept </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; horses will</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;be the exception not the rule. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Back to &quot;what do we want&quot; ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I've found flying when I'm GMing to be an easy =
way to get a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; party a far </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; distance with a minimum of roleplaying&nbsp; -- =
which may sound </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; like an odd </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; advantage I'll grant.&nbsp; Have them go by =
horse and they'll want to know </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the name of every inn and what's on the menu, =
and keep </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; they'll stopping </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to chat with locals... and before you know it =
several </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; sessions have been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; consumed by journeying to the adventure site. =
:-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'd have no issue with reducing the average =
flying speed or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; upping the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; FT costs (or at least confirming those FT =
costs) -- but would </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; prefer not </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to do this unless / until we have a clear idea =
of the issue </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; being addressed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sensible words.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If we did reduce flying speeds&nbsp; -- and they =
became as you said &quot;more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; like the speed of birds&quot;, then I'd also =
want us to do away with the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; silly catapulting people through the sky they =
currently do </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and integrate </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; them properly with combat etc...&nbsp; =
:-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes, one benefit of the current speed is that if you =
try to fly during ground-based combat the GM tends to take steps to =
make sure they don't have to deal with 3-D combat (this normally hurts, =
and rightly so.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The couple of times that I've been involved in aeriel =
combat it's been successful (as a role-playing experience) because =
no-one tried to count hexes or be a stickler for rules. I think we =
could spend a lot of time fiddling around trying to develop rules, and =
find them very tiresome if people followed them strictly. I'd rather =
finish off various other things (like Spy and Thief) before we tackle =
this.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Can anyone please inform me when was the section on: 

 

You can rank one rank beyond the experience points that you currently have
(to be paid for within 6 months) removed from the rulebook and why?

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Can anyone please inform me when was the =
section on: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You can rank one rank beyond the experience =
points
that you currently have (to be paid for within 6 months) removed from =
the
rulebook and why?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>TME - Its all about time</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Phone <st1:Street =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address
 w:st=3D"on">966 1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO =
Box
  35902</st1:address></st1:Street>, <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName>
 <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckalnd</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Mob 021 173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Free 0800 55 33 =
66</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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Do you mean the ability to spend the time required before you have the EP
(the rank not being attained until the EP is spent)?

I thought there was a general rule that you must spend all the time required
for a rank within the 6 months before you spend the EP. However all I found
was:

"28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills
...
Any skill may be acquired at Rank 0 at a variable
cost of Experience Points and 8 weeks of game
time.All eight weeks must fall within a period of six game
months. Time spent on adventure may not count to-ward
the necessary eight weeks."

which surprised me.

Assuming we want this rule to be general, then it should probably be in the
first part of 6 Ranking.

Cheers
Errol


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Bean [mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz]
Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 17:10
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Over ranking


Can anyone please inform me when was the section on: 
 
You can rank one rank beyond the experience points that you currently have
(to be paid for within 6 months) removed from the rulebook and why?
 
Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66
 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Over ranking</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do you mean the ability to spend the time required =
before you have the EP (the rank not being attained until the EP is =
spent)?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I thought there was a general rule that you must =
spend all the time required for a rank within the 6 months before you =
spend the EP. However all I found was:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Any skill may be acquired at Rank 0 at a =
variable</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>cost of Experience Points and 8 weeks of game</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>time.All eight weeks must fall within a period of =
six game</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>months. Time spent on adventure may not count =
to-ward</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the necessary eight weeks.&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>which surprised me.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Assuming we want this rule to be general, then it =
should probably be in the first part of 6 Ranking.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Jonathan Bean [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, 11 July 2005 17:10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: [dq] Over ranking</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Can anyone please inform me when was the section on: =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>You can rank one rank beyond the experience points =
that you currently have (to be paid for within 6 months) removed from =
the rulebook and why?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jonathan Bean</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Business Development Manager</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>TME - Its all about time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Phone 966 =
1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box 35902, =
Browns Bay</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Fax 448 =
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Auckalnd, New Zealand</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Mob 021 173 4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
www.tme.co.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Free 0800 55 33 66</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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What ever the reason, the end result is that by the time they get to rank 4
characters have 6 or 7 subskills in these skills, rather than the only 1 or
2 (Max of 4) other skills have.
Its just that this way once at 4 you toss up between just adding a subskill
or spending the extra week and 450ep (less with trainer discount) to get
rank 5, Rank 7 becomes a top notch journeyman, not the new benchmark for
getting new subskills, and Masters are Masters because they want to be not
because it's the only way to round out the characters subskills to meet
their vision of the character.

It seemed to me a way to have that rank 0 Armourer who just churns stuff out
for the army and ruins good armour that Stephen suggested.
But still have a point to ranking things like troubadour.
Even if we where to set a rank (like 7) at which subskills purchased do
people like Andrews suggested time and ep costs?

Helen

Hi Helen,

3 sub-skills were granted at Rk 0 in the revised Troubadour to replicate 
existing functionality and to make conversion simple -- PCs would have 
the same number of sub-skills that they already possessed. Previous 
version of the skill gave Bardic Voice (and Prestidigitation if I recall 
correctly) automatically along with one of the player's choice for a 
total of 3 at Rk 0.

Ditto Courtier conversion from Courtesan --  Seduction and 1 pick at Rk 
0 for a total of 2 at Rk 0 (and the reason that the two skills grant 
different qtys at Rk 0).

Cheers,
Martin

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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Equal to Rank 10 is effectively as high as the specialization rule allows,
that means currently that the flute player can have put it all into flute
from Rank 0 thru to 3, (giving +6) for an effective rank of 9, at rank 4
putting the subskill into flute again wastes it.

If we lower point extra subskills come in to Rank 7 there will be no point
to more than +3 for the multi Subskilled.

If we make it open to any rank at 4ish time and EP cost, we could set a
limit of say no more than +5 that way they need at least a few ranks to be a
master and rank 5 to take one to = rk10.
That way if you want to take three or more subskills to master sort of ranks
it will still be better to go to Rk 7. and then add +1-3.

Helen


Just as a small question. Given that in Troubadour/Courtier, you can
rebuy subskills, should there be a limit applied? 

Not that I think an effective rank 40 flute player is going to be game
breaking but it is something to consider. 

Mandos
/s


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