Subject[dq-announce] Guild Meeting: Sunday 11th (2 weeks away)
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 10:13:53 +1200 (NZST)
The guild meeting is in just over 2 weeks.
Sunday 11th Sept, Grey Lynn Library Hall, 1pm to 3:30pm.

Unless we have an unusually high player turn-out it looks like we have enough adventures for this
session.

Spy & Thief are currently in playtest and have been put on the agenda for the gods meeting.
To make that and any potential vote meaningful, the next week or so would be a good time to
re-read the current proposed versions and raise any issues you have.
Chris, you have placed these on the agenda, exactly what is it that you would like voted on at the
gods meeting?  Continued Playtest / Acceptance into Rules / ?

If you have any other agenda items, please add them to the on-line agenda on the wiki.
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Guild_Meeting_September_2005


SGT!  Start thinking about your SGT contributions.  They can be emailed to the editors or added to
the on-line editorial room on the wiki (which unlike last session, I'm sure will be included this
time):
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/SGT805-4


Cheers, Stephen.


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Subject[dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 10:54:35 +1200
I would like to see a rule change.
I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).

I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double actions, but instead:
Increase the duration.
Make the spell add +2 per rank to IV in combat.
Make the spell add 1 +1 per 3 ranks to TME.

This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is now) but it
would change the run time effect. 

The problem I have with Quickness:
When you take into account quickened characters you can end up with 10 parts
to the pulse and this makes it drag out and is less fun because players
often become confused over what part of the pulse they are in and if they
have acted already. In general it slows down the game.

What do others think?


Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66


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SubjectRe: [dq-announce] Guild Meeting: Sunday 11th (2 weeks away)
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 10:55:57 +1200
> Spy & Thief are currently in playtest and have been put on 
> the agenda for the gods meeting. To make that and any 
> potential vote meaningful, the next week or so would be a 
> good time to re-read the current proposed versions and raise 
> any issues you have. Chris, you have placed these on the 
> agenda, exactly what is it that you would like voted on at 
> the gods meeting?  Continued Playtest / Acceptance into Rules / ?

Currently I have not updated the current version with the
recommendations that were sent to me during the playtest. I will update
this weekend and let everyone know. 

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] hex sheets
FromNoel\ Livingston\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:11:24 +1200
Does anyone have a A1 size hex sheet (pdf or other format file) which I
can get printed and laminated for use in the game im running. ?

Cheers Noel


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Subject[dq] hex sheets
FromNoel\ Livingston\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:15:35 +1200
A0 size would also be great for those long range combats.

Cheers Noel


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SubjectRe: [dq] hex sheets
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:32:42 +1200 (NZST)
The zip files in
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/files/hexgrid/
Contain 3 files each: A1, A2, and A3 hexgrids in GIF, JPG, and PSP formats as per the zip file names.

Getting them printed is not too hard nor too expensive, getting them laminated usually is.

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> Does anyone have a A1 size hex sheet (pdf or other format file) which I can get printed and
> laminated for use in the game im running. ?
>
> Cheers Noel
>
>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:42:01 +1200
> I would like to see a rule change.
> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> 
> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double 
> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell 
> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per 
> 3 ranks to TME.

Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help :)
I presume you mean TMR?

> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is 
> now) but it would change the run time effect. 
> 
> The problem I have with Quickness:
> When you take into account quickened characters you can end 
> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and 
> is less fun because players often become confused over what 
> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already. 
> In general it slows down the game.

I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first action. So
the pulse would go 

1. All engaged actions
2. All unengaged actions
3. Quickened people second engaged action
4. Quickened people second unengaged action

This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far as
I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt it.
No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:50:26 +1200
> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the 
> annoying middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other 
> advantage is that as far as I can see there are no actual 
> rules in the book about dealing with quickness in the pulse 
> sequence which means people can simply adopt it. No need for 
> rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about. 

Having looked more there is actually nothing at all in there ( I could
be proved blind) so you could simply get players to perform both actions
at the same time on their initiative. Even simpler. I have no idea what
this would do to the combat dynamic but it could be worth a try, given
that our currently played convention does not appear to be written down
:-0)

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromChris Caulfield
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:50:31 +1200 (NZST)
Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) and the four
sequence turn below works well in all the combats I've been involved in.

1. All engaged actions
2. All unengaged actions
3. Quickened people second engaged action
4. Quickened people second unengaged action

Cheers
Chris

>> I would like to see a rule change.
>> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
>>
>> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
>> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
>> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
>> 3 ranks to TME.
>
> Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help :)
> I presume you mean TMR?
>
>> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
>> now) but it would change the run time effect.
>>
>> The problem I have with Quickness:
>> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
>> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
>> is less fun because players often become confused over what
>> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
>> In general it slows down the game.
>
> I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
> actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first action. So
> the pulse would go
>
> 1. All engaged actions
> 2. All unengaged actions
> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
>
> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far as
> I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt it.
> No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 13:57:41 +1200
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 13:42
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> 
> > I would like to see a rule change.
> > I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> > 
> > I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double 
> > actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell 
> > add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per 
> > 3 ranks to TME.
> 
> Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going 
> to help :)
> I presume you mean TMR?
> 
> > This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is 
> > now) but it would change the run time effect. 
> > 
> > The problem I have with Quickness:
> > When you take into account quickened characters you can end 
> > up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and 
> > is less fun because players often become confused over what 
> > part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already. 
> > In general it slows down the game.


It is very useful to have a player record everyone's actions as they declare
them (plus any significant events), saves a lot of hassle later (thanks
Phil, pity you were unconscious down a crevasse most of the combat).


> 
> I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
> actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first 
> action. So
> the pulse would go 
> 
> 1. All engaged actions
> 2. All unengaged actions
> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action

Plus (for clarity and completeness)
5. End of pulse activity



> 
> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that 
> as far as
> I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply 
> adopt it.

The spell description is ...brutally simple? Perhaps 'open to being applied
in various ways'?

Effects: The spell affects 1 (+ 1 / 3, or fraction,
Ranks) targets. The targets' Initiative Value is increased
by 10, and they can perform Actions twice
as often. 

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Quickness</TITLE>
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 13:42</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I would like to see a rule change.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I think it would be for the betterment of =
the game (more enjoyable).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I wish to see Quickness changed to not =
provide double </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; actions, but instead: Increase the =
duration. Make the spell </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the =
spell add 1 +1 per </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 3 ranks to TME.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your =
company is going </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to help :)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I presume you mean TMR?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; This would still make the spell critical =
in combats (as it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; now) but it would change the run time =
effect. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; The problem I have with Quickness:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; When you take into account quickened =
characters you can end </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; up with 10 parts to the pulse and this =
makes it drag out and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; is less fun because players often become =
confused over what </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; part of the pulse they are in and if they =
have acted already. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; In general it slows down the game.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It is very useful to have a player record everyone's =
actions as they declare them (plus any significant events), saves a lot =
of hassle later (thanks Phil, pity you were unconscious down a crevasse =
most of the combat).</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I think that a simpler solution is to move the =
Non quickened peoples</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; actions into the same sequence as the quickened =
persons first </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; action. So</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the pulse would go </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 1. All engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2. All unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 3. Quickened people second engaged =
action</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 4. Quickened people second unengaged =
action</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Plus (for clarity and completeness)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>5. End of pulse activity</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it =
removes the annoying</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other =
advantage is that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; as far as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I can see there are no actual rules in the book =
about dealing with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; quickness in the pulse sequence which means =
people can simply </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; adopt it.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The spell description is ...brutally simple? Perhaps =
'open to being applied in various ways'?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Effects: The spell affects 1 (+ 1 / 3, or =
fraction,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ranks) targets. The targets' Initiative Value is =
increased</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>by 10, and they can perform Actions twice</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>as often. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:11:11 +1200 (NZST)
The main issue with both actions at the same time is that mages get to prepare and cast without
any chance of interruption or response.

In a way they get to do that now, if you are consistently winning unengaged IV, prepare second
half, cast first half before they get to act.
At the moment there is always a chance you could lose IV the next pulse and be interrupted.  With
2 actions at once you're safe.

Cheers, Stephen.

Mandos Mitchinson said:
>
>> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the
>> annoying middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other
>> advantage is that as far as I can see there are no actual
>> rules in the book about dealing with quickness in the pulse
>> sequence which means people can simply adopt it. No need for
>> rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
>
> Having looked more there is actually nothing at all in there ( I could be proved blind) so you
> could simply get players to perform both actions at the same time on their initiative. Even
> simpler. I have no idea what this would do to the combat dynamic but it could be worth a try,
> given that our currently played convention does not appear to be written down :-0)
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:14:09 +1200
Which comes back to (my interpretation of) Jono's remark - "Quickness is
god-awful tough, and here's a way of making it useful without spliting
the game into those quickened and those not". This is not just in pulse
splitting and uninterruptable mages, but also non-quickened figures are
second-class citizens in combat.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 2:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness


The main issue with both actions at the same time is that mages get to
prepare and cast without any chance of interruption or response.

In a way they get to do that now, if you are consistently winning
unengaged IV, prepare second half, cast first half before they get to
act. At the moment there is always a chance you could lose IV the next
pulse and be interrupted.  With 2 actions at once you're safe.

Cheers, Stephen.

Mandos Mitchinson said:
>
>> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying 
>> middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far 
>> as I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with

>> quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt 
>> it. No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing 
>> about.
>
> Having looked more there is actually nothing at all in there ( I could

> be proved blind) so you could simply get players to perform both 
> actions at the same time on their initiative. Even simpler. I have no 
> idea what this would do to the combat dynamic but it could be worth a 
> try, given that our currently played convention does not appear to be 
> written down :-0)
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:16:30 +1200
At the moment for a quickness effected pulse we:

First half Engaged actions
First half Unengaged actions
First half Stun recovery

None-quickened people Engaged actions
None-quickened people Unengaged actions
None-quickened people Stun recovery

Second half Engaged actions
Second half Unengaged actions
Second half Stun recovery

None-Quickened people stun recovery

So it's ~about 10 parts to it at the moment.
To much to hard.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Chris Caulfield
> Sent: 26 August 2005 1:51 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) and the four
> sequence turn below works well in all the combats I've been involved in.
> 
> 1. All engaged actions
> 2. All unengaged actions
> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> 
> Cheers
> Chris
> 
> >> I would like to see a rule change.
> >> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> >>
> >> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
> >> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
> >> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
> >> 3 ranks to TME.
> >
> > Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help :)
> > I presume you mean TMR?
> >
> >> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
> >> now) but it would change the run time effect.
> >>
> >> The problem I have with Quickness:
> >> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
> >> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
> >> is less fun because players often become confused over what
> >> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
> >> In general it slows down the game.
> >
> > I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
> > actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first action. So
> > the pulse would go
> >
> > 1. All engaged actions
> > 2. All unengaged actions
> > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> >
> > This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> > middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far as
> > I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> > quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt it.
> > No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:19:20 +1200
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This factor means that having 'both actions at once' would give an even
larger advantage to Quickness.

Don't forget that pulses are just like financial years - they use artificial
and arbitrary segments to regulate continuous activities.

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 14:11
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> 
> The main issue with both actions at the same time is that 
> mages get to prepare and cast without
> any chance of interruption or response.
> 
> In a way they get to do that now, if you are consistently 
> winning unengaged IV, prepare second
> half, cast first half before they get to act.
> At the moment there is always a chance you could lose IV the 
> next pulse and be interrupted.  With
> 2 actions at once you're safe.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Mandos Mitchinson said:
> >
> >> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the
> >> annoying middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other
> >> advantage is that as far as I can see there are no actual
> >> rules in the book about dealing with quickness in the pulse
> >> sequence which means people can simply adopt it. No need for
> >> rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
> >
> > Having looked more there is actually nothing at all in 
> there ( I could be proved blind) so you
> > could simply get players to perform both actions at the 
> same time on their initiative. Even
> > simpler. I have no idea what this would do to the combat 
> dynamic but it could be worth a try,
> > given that our currently played convention does not appear 
> to be written down :-0)
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This factor means that having 'both actions at once' =
would give an even larger advantage to Quickness.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Don't forget that pulses are just like financial =
years - they use artificial and arbitrary segments to regulate =
continuous activities.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Stephen Martin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po=
intclark.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 14:11</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The main issue with both actions at the same =
time is that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mages get to prepare and cast without</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; any chance of interruption or response.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In a way they get to do that now, if you are =
consistently </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; winning unengaged IV, prepare second</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; half, cast first half before they get to =
act.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; At the moment there is always a chance you =
could lose IV the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; next pulse and be interrupted.&nbsp; =
With</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2 actions at once you're safe.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson said:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; This simplifies the turn sequence a =
lot as it removes the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; annoying middle pulse non-quickened =
stuff. The other</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; advantage is that as far as I can see =
there are no actual</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; rules in the book about dealing with =
quickness in the pulse</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; sequence which means people can simply =
adopt it. No need for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&gt; rule changes, voting arguments or =
other messing about.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Having looked more there is actually =
nothing at all in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; there ( I could be proved blind) so you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; could simply get players to perform both =
actions at the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; same time on their initiative. Even</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; simpler. I have no idea what this would do =
to the combat </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; dynamic but it could be worth a try,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; given that our currently played convention =
does not appear </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to be written down :-0)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:20:00 +1200
I think Jono's idea is simple and mainly works.

However, an alternative proposal whose main advantage is its complexity
is:
Make Quickness increase AG (0 + 1 / Rank, as per SoS), which has a
similar effect on IV and TMR, and with AG 22-25 and AG 26+, moves a
little towards the two-action of Quickness but with more managable
results. Adding extra pass actions at ?36? and ?46? gives reasons for
ranking and for having naturally high AG.
This seriously depowers elves and their natural AG26, which along with
plate tanks at AG 30+ is probably sufficient reason to screw this idea
up and chuck it away. Maybe we can only double modified AG?

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean
Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 10:55 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Quickness


I would like to see a rule change.
I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).

I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double actions, but
instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell add +2 per rank to IV in
combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per 3 ranks to TME.

This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is now) but
it would change the run time effect. 

The problem I have with Quickness:
When you take into account quickened characters you can end up with 10
parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and is less fun because
players often become confused over what part of the pulse they are in
and if they have acted already. In general it slows down the game.

What do others think?


Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:26:10 +1200 (NZST)
Quickness makes combats more complicated, so does Slow and Agony.  Combine all 3 with some people
affected by each of them and you have a nightmare to keep track of.
Abolish the doubling and halving of actions of all 3 and combat becomes simpler.

But is it broken enough to justify removing the intrinsic-flawed part of combat that we have all
been using with for over 20 years?


Chris Caulfield said:
> Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) and the four sequence turn below
> works well in all the combats I've been involved in.
>
> 1. All engaged actions
> 2. All unengaged actions
> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
>
> Cheers
> Chris
>
>>> I would like to see a rule change.
>>> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
>>>
>>> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
>>> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
>>> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
>>> 3 ranks to TME.
>>
>> Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help :) I presume you mean
>> TMR?
>>
>>> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
>>> now) but it would change the run time effect.
>>>
>>> The problem I have with Quickness:
>>> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
>>> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
>>> is less fun because players often become confused over what
>>> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
>>> In general it slows down the game.
>>
>> I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples actions into the same
>> sequence as the quickened persons first action. So the pulse would go
>>
>> 1. All engaged actions
>> 2. All unengaged actions
>> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
>> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
>>
>> This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying middle pulse non-quickened
>> stuff. The other advantage is that as far as I can see there are no actual rules in the book
>> about dealing with quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt it. No
>> need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
>>
>> Mandos
>> /s
>>
>>
>> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] hex sheets
FromStruan Judd
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:28:02 +1200
I find multiple A4 or A3 sheets better for long range combats.

Just a bit more flexibility.

TTFN, Struan


On 8/26/05, Noel Livingston (DSL AK) <NoelL@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
> A0 size would also be great for those long range combats.
> 
> Cheers Noel
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:29:07 +1200
> Which comes back to (my interpretation of) Jono's remark - 
> "Quickness is god-awful tough, and here's a way of making it 
> useful without spliting the game into those quickened and 
> those not". This is not just in pulse splitting and 
> uninterruptable mages, but also non-quickened figures are 
> second-class citizens in combat.

Just as those without armour of earth are second class citizens, those
without a blast spell are second class citizens. It is not that they are
second class they are just at a tactical disadvantage. 

The guild is magic heavy (magic top heavy possibly) so mundane opponents
are more than likely going to be at a disadvantage. Magical opponents
have a similar chance of having the boost magic's that the guild may
have so I cannot see a reasoning against quickness on the second class
citizen basis. 

The pulse time sequence confusion I think is an excellent reason to
change quickness but it is interesting to see that the complicated
sequence we use is not actual a rule but a convention so I think it is
worth trying some other options before starting the complicated question
of re-writing quickness. Particularly given Jono's oft made point that
people hate the colleges changing too often and the changing of major
spells. 

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] Other broken things.
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:40:34 +1200
Since I just cannot concentrate on work today and Jono has started a
broken things conversations I have couple of things I think are a bit
broken. 

Basically I thought I would just share the basic idea's and if people
agree they are broken we can discuss them then. I will only do a brief
outline rather than waste bandwidth with big explainations. 

1. Golems with Defence spells. - My feelings are they should be treated
more like items so defense spells would not work on them but weapon
spells might. 

2. Overstrengthing should give an increased chance of a weapon break in
addition to the chance of a fumble. Not a huge chance 1-5% kind of
range. 

I know I had another bugbear but cannot remember it now :0-)

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:41:43 +1200
I do agree that people hate change. 

This is one of the few times - I for one, want change because I think it
would make the game more fun. Yes I agree it is an experience thing being
able to run combats well and quickly but I also agree with Stephen to a port
(I think slow and agony are fine) that it is a level of complexity that I
don't see as helping. 

I also think the balance of giving a +IV amount per rank or per X ranks
would be the balancing part where the E&E mages would still get pestered all
the time to cast quickness please, cast quickness already etc

It is a small change at run time which has no follow on to other rules but
is still a large effect in combat that fighter types would still want.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: 26 August 2005 2:29 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> > Which comes back to (my interpretation of) Jono's remark -
> > "Quickness is god-awful tough, and here's a way of making it
> > useful without spliting the game into those quickened and
> > those not". This is not just in pulse splitting and
> > uninterruptable mages, but also non-quickened figures are
> > second-class citizens in combat.
> 
> Just as those without armour of earth are second class citizens, those
> without a blast spell are second class citizens. It is not that they are
> second class they are just at a tactical disadvantage.
> 
> The guild is magic heavy (magic top heavy possibly) so mundane opponents
> are more than likely going to be at a disadvantage. Magical opponents
> have a similar chance of having the boost magic's that the guild may
> have so I cannot see a reasoning against quickness on the second class
> citizen basis.
> 
> The pulse time sequence confusion I think is an excellent reason to
> change quickness but it is interesting to see that the complicated
> sequence we use is not actual a rule but a convention so I think it is
> worth trying some other options before starting the complicated question
> of re-writing quickness. Particularly given Jono's oft made point that
> people hate the colleges changing too often and the changing of major
> spells.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Other broken things.
FromStruan Judd
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:44:49 +1200
Endurance Healing taking only 5 secs perhaps

TTFN, Struan.

On 8/26/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
> 
> Since I just cannot concentrate on work today and Jono has started a
> broken things conversations I have couple of things I think are a bit
> broken.
> 
> Basically I thought I would just share the basic idea's and if people
> agree they are broken we can discuss them then. I will only do a brief
> outline rather than waste bandwidth with big explainations.
> 
> 1. Golems with Defence spells. - My feelings are they should be treated
> more like items so defense spells would not work on them but weapon
> spells might.
> 
> 2. Overstrengthing should give an increased chance of a weapon break in
> addition to the chance of a fumble. Not a huge chance 1-5% kind of
> range.
> 
> I know I had another bugbear but cannot remember it now :0-)
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Other broken things 3
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:56:22 +1200
> Endurance Healing taking only 5 secs perhaps

3. Poison removal takes 5 seconds. This seems way too fast. Sure you can
stop the poison spreading in 5 seconds but I think it should take longer
to cure. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 14:58:17 +1200
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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If we don't give quickened people automatic first go over unquickened, the
'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery happens on your action) is:

Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will generally go before
unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)
Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, then 2nd side)

Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned last)
Quickened Unengaged

End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that pulse, phantasm attacks
etc)


Which is what Chris said, with a bit more detail.

Jono's suggestion has merit, but lets get the alternatives straight.

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Bean [mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 14:17
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> 
> At the moment for a quickness effected pulse we:
> 
> First half Engaged actions
> First half Unengaged actions
> First half Stun recovery
> 
> None-quickened people Engaged actions
> None-quickened people Unengaged actions
> None-quickened people Stun recovery
> 
> Second half Engaged actions
> Second half Unengaged actions
> Second half Stun recovery
> 
> None-Quickened people stun recovery
> 
> So it's ~about 10 parts to it at the moment.
> To much to hard.
> 
> Jonathan Bean
>  
> Business Development Manager
> TME - Its all about time
> Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
> Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
> Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
> Free 0800 55 33 66
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] 
> On Behalf Of
> > Chris Caulfield
> > Sent: 26 August 2005 1:51 p.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> > 
> > Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) 
> and the four
> > sequence turn below works well in all the combats I've been 
> involved in.
> > 
> > 1. All engaged actions
> > 2. All unengaged actions
> > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> > 
> > Cheers
> > Chris
> > 
> > >> I would like to see a rule change.
> > >> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more 
> enjoyable).
> > >>
> > >> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
> > >> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
> > >> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
> > >> 3 ranks to TME.
> > >
> > > Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is 
> going to help :)
> > > I presume you mean TMR?
> > >
> > >> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
> > >> now) but it would change the run time effect.
> > >>
> > >> The problem I have with Quickness:
> > >> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
> > >> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
> > >> is less fun because players often become confused over what
> > >> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
> > >> In general it slows down the game.
> > >
> > > I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non 
> quickened peoples
> > > actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons 
> first action. So
> > > the pulse would go
> > >
> > > 1. All engaged actions
> > > 2. All unengaged actions
> > > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> > >
> > > This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> > > middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is 
> that as far as
> > > I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> > > quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can 
> simply adopt it.
> > > No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
> > >
> > > Mandos
> > > /s
> > >
> > >
> > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > 
> > 
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Quickness</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If we don't give quickened people automatic first go =
over unquickened, the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery =
happens on your action) is:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will =
generally go before unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, =
then 2nd side)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned =
last)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Quickened Unengaged</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that =
pulse, phantasm attacks etc)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Which is what Chris said, with a bit more =
detail.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Jono's suggestion has merit, but lets get the =
alternatives straight.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Jonathan Bean [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 14:17</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; At the moment for a quickness effected pulse =
we:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; First half Engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; First half Unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; First half Stun recovery</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; None-quickened people Engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; None-quickened people Unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; None-quickened people Stun recovery</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Second half Engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Second half Unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Second half Stun recovery</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; None-Quickened people stun recovery</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; So it's ~about 10 parts to it at the =
moment.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To much to hard.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jonathan Bean</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Business Development Manager</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; TME - Its all about time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Phone 966 =
1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box 35902, =
Browns Bay</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Fax 448 =
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Auckalnd, New Zealand</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mob 021 173 =
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; www.tme.co.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Free 0800 55 33 66</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; On Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Chris Caulfield</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Sent: 26 August 2005 1:51 p.m.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to =
most spells anyway) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and the four</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; sequence turn below works well in all the =
combats I've been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; involved in.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 1. All engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 2. All unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 3. Quickened people second engaged =
action</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 4. Quickened people second unengaged =
action</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Chris</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I would like to see a rule =
change.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I think it would be for the =
betterment of the game (more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; enjoyable).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; I wish to see Quickness changed =
to not provide double</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; actions, but instead: Increase =
the duration. Make the spell</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; add +2 per rank to IV in combat. =
Make the spell add 1 +1 per</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; 3 ranks to TME.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks =
to your company is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; going to help :)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; I presume you mean TMR?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; This would still make the spell =
critical in combats (as it is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; now) but it would change the run =
time effect.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; The problem I have with =
Quickness:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; When you take into account =
quickened characters you can end</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; up with 10 parts to the pulse and =
this makes it drag out and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; is less fun because players often =
become confused over what</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; part of the pulse they are in and =
if they have acted already.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; In general it slows down the =
game.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; I think that a simpler solution is to =
move the Non </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; quickened peoples</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; actions into the same sequence as the =
quickened persons </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; first action. So</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; the pulse would go</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 1. All engaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 2. All unengaged actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 3. Quickened people second engaged =
action</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 4. Quickened people second unengaged =
action</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; This simplifies the turn sequence a =
lot as it removes the annoying</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The =
other advantage is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that as far as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; I can see there are no actual rules =
in the book about dealing with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; quickness in the pulse sequence which =
means people can </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; simply adopt it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; No need for rule changes, voting =
arguments or other messing about.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromChris Caulfield
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 15:53:30 +1200 (NZST)
Ah but good E&E's never get pestered to cast Quickness, its always first
off the rank if they have it or its almost always running in dangerous
situations :-)

> I do agree that people hate change.
>
> This is one of the few times - I for one, want change because I think it
> would make the game more fun. Yes I agree it is an experience thing
> being able to run combats well and quickly but I also agree with Stephen
> to a port (I think slow and agony are fine) that it is a level of
> complexity that I don't see as helping.
>
> I also think the balance of giving a +IV amount per rank or per X ranks
> would be the balancing part where the E&E mages would still get pestered
> all the time to cast quickness please, cast quickness already etc
>
> It is a small change at run time which has no follow on to other rules
> but is still a large effect in combat that fighter types would still
> want.
>
> Jonathan Bean
>
> Business Development Manager
> TME - Its all about time
> Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
> Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
> Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
> Free 0800 55 33 66
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf
>> Of Mandos Mitchinson
>> Sent: 26 August 2005 2:29 p.m.
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
>>
>> > Which comes back to (my interpretation of) Jono's remark -
>> > "Quickness is god-awful tough, and here's a way of making it
>> > useful without spliting the game into those quickened and
>> > those not". This is not just in pulse splitting and
>> > uninterruptable mages, but also non-quickened figures are
>> > second-class citizens in combat.
>>
>> Just as those without armour of earth are second class citizens, those
>> without a blast spell are second class citizens. It is not that they
>> are second class they are just at a tactical disadvantage.
>>
>> The guild is magic heavy (magic top heavy possibly) so mundane
>> opponents are more than likely going to be at a disadvantage. Magical
>> opponents have a similar chance of having the boost magic's that the
>> guild may have so I cannot see a reasoning against quickness on the
>> second class citizen basis.
>>
>> The pulse time sequence confusion I think is an excellent reason to
>> change quickness but it is interesting to see that the complicated
>> sequence we use is not actual a rule but a convention so I think it is
>> worth trying some other options before starting the complicated
>> question of re-writing quickness. Particularly given Jono's oft made
>> point that people hate the colleges changing too often and the
>> changing of major spells.
>>
>> Mandos
>> /s
>>
>>
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>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMichael Parkinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 16:44:29 +1200
[Stephen said ... 
> The main issue with both actions at the same time is that 
> mages get to prepare and cast without
> any chance of interruption or response.

And if the mage is in combat it gets worse ... especially if Mage has (high AG & good rank with unarmed or the weapon dangling in their other hand) they get to prepare & cast the magic before the opponent attacks.  If the mage is too slow they still get to do silly things, unless stunned:  prepare & cast magic (if aby fatigue remains); prepare & drink a healing potion;  etc

It's not the power of quickness that's at fault -- sometimes quickness is the only edge that a party gets against big hard-hitting opponents.  And catching a party unaware, when they're not quickened, can satisfactorily punish them for sloppy behaviour.   As a GM, I do mind that it is becomming obligatory on medium or higher parties to have a "Quickness mage" and tends to be a major splitting point in running or designing the game.  The options become limited for the GM:

EITHER insist they have a Quickness Mage, or must purchase sufficent invested Quicknesses beforehand,
OR (less often) insist that, for game design reasons, it just happens that no Quickmage is interested & that the characters elected to leave invested Quicknesses behind -- the same way that one sometimes must turn away an XYZ mage, or one accepts a specific character provided that they leave a certain item or familiar at home this adventure [Not an elegant solution, but it may be necessary].


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMartin Dickson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 16:19:58 +1200
We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have 
all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces to the Pulse.

To Do:

* Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that doesn't require 
"prepared weapon".
* Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd actions. (IV / 2) perhaps?

Errol Cavit wrote:

> If we don't give quickened people automatic first go over unquickened, 
> the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery happens on your 
> action) is:
>
> Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will generally go before 
> unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)
> Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, then 2nd side)
>
> Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned last)
> Quickened Unengaged
>
> End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that pulse, phantasm 
> attacks etc)
>

-- 
Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromStruan Judd
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:16 +1200
On 8/26/05, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@peace.com> wrote:
> We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have
> all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces to the Pulse.
> 
> To Do:
> 
> * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that doesn't require
> "prepared weapon".

Yes. And also doesn't require knowledge of your chosen action (the
major problem I have for any IV calculation for mages that includes
"Spell being cast", but possibly only for Namers, who deserve to die
anyway)

> * Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd actions. (IV / 2) perhaps?

It's simple. And not hideously wrong. And I'm not worried about the
possibility of a "Sabrina" getting both her actions before the town
idiot.

I'd also boost the Quickness IV bonus from +10 to +20 for this scheme. 
This would make the IV range approx 0-100 (where 0 is stunned and 100
is god awesome. I think Sabrina can currently hit 90 including
Quickness)

TTFN, Struan.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 17:00:48 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Would this retain the random element of unengaged initiative, one of it's
strong points IMO?

I seem to remember talking about putting a random element into engaged
initiative, but people not liking the extra dice rolls.

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com]
> Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 16:20
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> 
> We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have 
> all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces 
> to the Pulse.
> 
> To Do:
> 
> * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that 
> doesn't require 
> "prepared weapon".
> * Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd actions. (IV / 
> 2) perhaps?
> 
> Errol Cavit wrote:
> 
> > If we don't give quickened people automatic first go over 
> unquickened, 
> > the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery happens on your 
> > action) is:
> >
> > Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will generally go before 
> > unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)
> > Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, then 2nd side)
> >
> > Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned last)
> > Quickened Unengaged
> >
> > End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that pulse, phantasm 
> > attacks etc)
> >
> 
> -- 
> Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
> User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
> Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: 
> martin.dickson@peace.com
> Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Would this retain the random element of unengaged =
initiative, one of it's strong points IMO?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I seem to remember talking about putting a random =
element into engaged initiative, but people not liking the extra dice =
rolls.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Martin Dickson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com">mailto:martin.dickson@peace.com=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 16:20</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV =
distinction (ie. have </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; all figures acting in a single sequence) and =
get less pieces </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to the Pulse.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To Do:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a =
fashion that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; doesn't require </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &quot;prepared weapon&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; * Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd =
actions. (IV / </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2) perhaps?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Errol Cavit wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; If we don't give quickened people =
automatic first go over </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; unquickened, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun =
recovery happens on your </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; action) is:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened =
will generally go before </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; unquickened due to high IV, stunned =
last)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Unengaged (1st side, including their stun =
recovery, then 2nd side)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned =
last)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Quickened Unengaged</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; End of pulse (extra stun recovery if =
stunned that pulse, phantasm </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; attacks etc)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Martin =
Dickson&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ph:&nbsp; +64 9 3730400 x5115</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; User Experience =
Engineer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; fax: +64 9 3730401</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Strategy, Research &amp; =
Architecture&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; email: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; martin.dickson@peace.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Peace =
Software&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A HREF=3D"http://www.peace.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.peace.com</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
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SubjectRe: [dq] hex sheets
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 17:31:48 +1200
I hate to think what A0 Lamination costs. Go for small maps and patch work
big ranges. 
Just use plain paper hex sheets at A3. You can probably get 15-20 photo
copies for the price of lamination.
I have just had some A3 sheets copied it cost 40 cents a sheet for the
Copying. To laminate 1 A3 sheet costs $7.20 at my corner post shop.

Helen

DSL AK said:
> Does anyone have a A1 size hex sheet (pdf or other format file) which I
can get printed and
> laminated for use in the game im running. ?
>
> Cheers Noel
>
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 17:28:10 +1200
It's not the power of quickness that's at fault -- sometimes quickness is
the only edge that a party gets against big hard-hitting opponents.  And
catching a party unaware, when they're not quickened, can satisfactorily
punish them for sloppy behaviour.   As a GM, I do mind that it is becomming
obligatory on medium or higher parties to have a "Quickness mage" and tends
to be a major splitting point in running or designing the game.  The options
become limited for the GM:

Yes; this is the issue IMHO.  Quickness is currently a must have once
players reach a certain level. Like permanent graters used to be.  How many
GM's suss out weather pc's have quickness before giving it to the bad guys,
OR as is suggested here really encourage parties to acquire it for 'this
particular mission'.  

While D-flames is tough, you might not get it off before being hit (and you
can have ablative protection) so there are some balancing features.

If the party needs quickness as an edge it may not be tough enough to take
on these particular bad guys - and the reverse is true, wouldn't bad guys
check the quickness situation before deciding weather or not to attack a
certain bunch of good guys,  in this land every person would get some
quickness as soon as they had the money to do so, and once they had it could
beat up on almost every other person who did not have it.  Its difficult for
me to maintain suspension of disbelief.

The other option is that we strengthen magic every where so that every one
you are likely to meat on adventure does have all the important magics, kind
of defeats the purpose however it would ensure adventurers could always beat
up on peasants.

Hamish    



EITHER insist they have a Quickness Mage, or must purchase sufficent
invested Quicknesses beforehand,
OR (less often) insist that, for game design reasons, it just happens that
no Quickmage is interested & that the characters elected to leave invested
Quicknesses behind -- the same way that one sometimes must turn away an XYZ
mage, or one accepts a specific character provided that they leave a certain
item or familiar at home this adventure [Not an elegant solution, but it may
be necessary].


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 18:07:58 +1200
I think there is a problem with quickness, but any change to it I think
should be simple to use at run time for the players and GM. Otherwise I see
no gain in moving from one "simple but involved 10 part system" to another.

Also I would aim at not having a variable calculation at run time - slows
things down to much. A Mins duration means that the demand to cast the spell
will still be there but would help to remove the bookkeeping if it lasted
for long enough (longer than the GM expects the fight to run for).

Having an IV system which works downwards as you move thru the pulse sounds
good as you can have fast people sometimes have 2 actions before the town
idiot, but I have seen this in play in Bushido.

The problem them becomes people end up aiming at being slow so their two
actions at full IV value and half IV are close together at the end of the
pulse. So this means that the fast people can not stop the slow people doing
things without a new system of holding IV value and actions until later in
the pulse - which has its own set of foibles.

This all in turn is a much large change that simple a small change to
Quickness and replacing the double actions with a + to IV and + to TMR.

The main advantage of a + to both of these things is very few things in the
game add to them at the moment so the balance and demand for Quickness will
still be there. Also it's simple. At the same time it would remove the
Double action (10 part pulses), while simple keeping the rest intact.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Martin Dickson
> Sent: 26 August 2005 4:20 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have
> all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces to the Pulse.
> 
> To Do:
> 
> * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that doesn't require
> "prepared weapon".
> * Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd actions. (IV / 2) perhaps?
> 
> Errol Cavit wrote:
> 
> > If we don't give quickened people automatic first go over unquickened,
> > the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery happens on your
> > action) is:
> >
> > Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will generally go before
> > unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)
> > Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, then 2nd side)
> >
> > Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned last)
> > Quickened Unengaged
> >
> > End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that pulse, phantasm
> > attacks etc)
> >
> 
> --
> Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
> User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
> Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
> Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Other broken things.
FromKharsis
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 19:36:17 +1200
Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>Since I just cannot concentrate on work today and Jono has started a
>broken things conversations I have couple of things I think are a bit
>broken. 
>
>Basically I thought I would just share the basic idea's and if people
>agree they are broken we can discuss them then. I will only do a brief
>outline rather than waste bandwidth with big explainations. 
>
>1. Golems with Defence spells. - My feelings are they should be treated
>more like items so defense spells would not work on them but weapon
>spells might. 
>
>2. Overstrengthing should give an increased chance of a weapon break in
>addition to the chance of a fumble. Not a huge chance 1-5% kind of
>range. 
>
>I know I had another bugbear but cannot remember it now :0-)
>
>Mandos
>/s
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
>  
>
Overstrengthing did at one time increase ther chance of a weapon 
breaking IIRC it was 5% per point of ectra damage.  I cannot remeber 
when or why this was changed.

Scott Whitaker


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:00:45 +1200
Martin

> We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have
> all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces to the Pulse.
>
> To Do:
>
> * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that doesn't require
> "prepared weapon".

Errol

> Would this retain the random element of unengaged initiative, one of it's
strong points IMO?


Just while people explore this avenue, I have used it for large combats in
the past. I used unarmed initiative for spellcasters and whatever weapon
people had prepared for their unengaged initative.

I worked on a principle that once one person hit another the combat became
an engaged one and so everything went to initative. Combats tended to have
much more tactical movement in the early 'unengaged phases'.

One advantage was you could organise the party to sit in initative order and
it made really quick to do the turn round the room fitting bad guys in as
you went. I still use it for large scale (20-30 bad guys) combats, I think
the document I wrote on it is still on the Dragonquest files list.

MAndos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:10:37 +1200
> Yes; this is the issue IMHO.  Quickness is currently a must have once
> players reach a certain level. Like permanent graters used to be.

Like Strenght of Stone, a good defence spell, a mind mage for Empathy's, 100
points of healing, several restoatives, amulet of luck, amulet of diamonds,
magical weapon, weapon spell......

....and the list goes on, all of the above are staples in a high level game.

Once you reach a certain level a lot of things become a must have and while
people who play on mediums and lows may think it is just power gaming it
really is important in a nasty fight to get all of the above and more so you
can crawl out the otherside intact.

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] STAT points - WAS other broken things
FromIan\ at\ dawn\'s\ haven
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:53:12 +1200
Hi all,

For 20+ years we have had a silly STAT point system.

I know we looked at several options some years ago, but that was then and
this is now. We have grown as people and our ideas on fairness have changed
a bit, I hope.

I would like to form a discussion group to look at the character point
system (generation, maximums, costs, etc).

If those interested could reply off-list.

I would prefer to get a credible proposal together before suggesting it. 

Ian


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Subject[dq] Racial EMs - WAS: Other broken things.
FromIan\ at\ dawn\'s\ haven
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:53:12 +1200
Hi there,

I would like to see the racial EMs adjusted.

The game was written to balance PCs over several months, not decades.

I see two alternatives:

1. Standardise the races
1a. Give humans + benefits so that they also have a racial em of 1.1.
1b give all others -benefits until their racial em is 1.1
1c make all racial em 1.0

2. For every Y ep earnt, the racial EM goes down by 0.1, to a minimum of 1.0

I think Y should be something like 100,000.

I would prefer number 2, although I have always wanted humans to have a
possitive ability relative to all other races (such as humans can get on
with other races better (+bonus to reaction rolls).

Does anyone wish to discuss this further off-list to see where we can get
too before the coffee freezes over?

Ian


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromIan\ at\ dawn\'s\ haven
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:53:12 +1200
I disagree with you Chris. I think quickness is broken for the reasons given
by several players.

I am not totally assured Jono's solution is best, but it is better than
current. I prefer Andrew's, but then I recognise that Strength of Stone etc
all require us to be aware of our ModAG, and some cant do that.

We have been playing with a system for 20+ years, and yet it was designed
for games that lasted 1 year tops.

It is time to redo some of the balances.

Jono, and Mandos, have given a good lead.

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Chris Caulfield
> Sent: 26 August 2005 13:51
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) and the four
> sequence turn below works well in all the combats I've been involved in.
> 
> 1. All engaged actions
> 2. All unengaged actions
> 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> 
> Cheers
> Chris
> 
> >> I would like to see a rule change.
> >> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> >>
> >> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
> >> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
> >> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
> >> 3 ranks to TME.
> >
> > Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help :)
> > I presume you mean TMR?
> >
> >> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
> >> now) but it would change the run time effect.
> >>
> >> The problem I have with Quickness:
> >> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
> >> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
> >> is less fun because players often become confused over what
> >> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
> >> In general it slows down the game.
> >
> > I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
> > actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first action. So
> > the pulse would go
> >
> > 1. All engaged actions
> > 2. All unengaged actions
> > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> >
> > This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> > middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far as
> > I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> > quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt it.
> > No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Subject[dq] engaged and unengaged acting together WAS quickness
FromIan\ at\ dawn\'s\ haven
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:53:12 +1200
Hey there,

I would support the removal of this distinction. I merely have not seen a
suitable formula for calculating unengaged initiative that meshed with
engaged figures.

Ideas anyone?

Ian


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Martin Dickson
> Sent: 26 August 2005 16:20
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> We could even drop the Engaged vs. Unengaged IV distinction (ie. have
> all figures acting in a single sequence) and get less pieces to the Pulse.
> 
> To Do:
> 
> * Calculate IV for unengaged figures in a fashion that doesn't require
> "prepared weapon".
> * Figure out the IV for Quickened figures' 2nd actions. (IV / 2) perhaps?
> 
> Errol Cavit wrote:
> 
> > If we don't give quickened people automatic first go over unquickened,
> > the 'proper' sequence (per 3.3, most stun recovery happens on your
> > action) is:
> >
> > Engaged figures, by engagement (quickened will generally go before
> > unquickened due to high IV, stunned last)
> > Unengaged (1st side, including their stun recovery, then 2nd side)
> >
> > Quickened Engaged, by engagement (stunned last)
> > Quickened Unengaged
> >
> > End of pulse (extra stun recovery if stunned that pulse, phantasm
> > attacks etc)
> >
> 
> --
> Martin Dickson                           ph:  +64 9 3730400 x5115
> User Experience Engineer                 fax: +64 9 3730401
> Strategy, Research & Architecture        email: martin.dickson@peace.com
> Peace Software                           http://www.peace.com
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromIan\ at\ dawn\'s\ haven
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 20:57:53 +1200
The really important sub-phase action is dying!

This happens at the END of the pulse, so death buzzes should happen then
too.

This is important for those lucky enough to have ranged healing (like
empathy). It is always good to have your fighters stay between you and the
pain, and lying down on the job isn't part of it!

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: 26 August 2005 20:11
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> > Yes; this is the issue IMHO.  Quickness is currently a must have once
> > players reach a certain level. Like permanent graters used to be.
> 
> Like Strenght of Stone, a good defence spell, a mind mage for Empathy's,
> 100
> points of healing, several restoatives, amulet of luck, amulet of
> diamonds,
> magical weapon, weapon spell......
> 
> ....and the list goes on, all of the above are staples in a high level
> game.
> 
> Once you reach a certain level a lot of things become a must have and
> while
> people who play on mediums and lows may think it is just power gaming it
> really is important in a nasty fight to get all of the above and more so
> you
> can crawl out the otherside intact.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 21:49:58 +1200
I think Ian and Andrew are correct, in regards to Quickness.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Ian at dawn's haven
> Sent: 26 August 2005 8:53 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> I disagree with you Chris. I think quickness is broken for the reasons
> given
> by several players.
> 
> I am not totally assured Jono's solution is best, but it is better than
> current. I prefer Andrew's, but then I recognise that Strength of Stone
> etc
> all require us to be aware of our ModAG, and some cant do that.
> 
> We have been playing with a system for 20+ years, and yet it was designed
> for games that lasted 1 year tops.
> 
> It is time to redo some of the balances.
> 
> Jono, and Mandos, have given a good lead.
> 
> Ian
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> > Chris Caulfield
> > Sent: 26 August 2005 13:51
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> >
> > Quickness isn't broken (comparitive to most spells anyway) and the four
> > sequence turn below works well in all the combats I've been involved in.
> >
> > 1. All engaged actions
> > 2. All unengaged actions
> > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> >
> > Cheers
> > Chris
> >
> > >> I would like to see a rule change.
> > >> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> > >>
> > >> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double
> > >> actions, but instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell
> > >> add +2 per rank to IV in combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per
> > >> 3 ranks to TME.
> > >
> > > Not sure how adding 1 +1 per 3 ranks to your company is going to help
> :)
> > > I presume you mean TMR?
> > >
> > >> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is
> > >> now) but it would change the run time effect.
> > >>
> > >> The problem I have with Quickness:
> > >> When you take into account quickened characters you can end
> > >> up with 10 parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and
> > >> is less fun because players often become confused over what
> > >> part of the pulse they are in and if they have acted already.
> > >> In general it slows down the game.
> > >
> > > I think that a simpler solution is to move the Non quickened peoples
> > > actions into the same sequence as the quickened persons first action.
> So
> > > the pulse would go
> > >
> > > 1. All engaged actions
> > > 2. All unengaged actions
> > > 3. Quickened people second engaged action
> > > 4. Quickened people second unengaged action
> > >
> > > This simplifies the turn sequence a lot as it removes the annoying
> > > middle pulse non-quickened stuff. The other advantage is that as far
> as
> > > I can see there are no actual rules in the book about dealing with
> > > quickness in the pulse sequence which means people can simply adopt
> it.
> > > No need for rule changes, voting arguments or other messing about.
> > >
> > > Mandos
> > > /s
> > >
> > >
> > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Quickness
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 22:03:13 +1200
I like Andrews AG mod for Quickness.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: 26 August 2005 2:20 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness
> 
> I think Jono's idea is simple and mainly works.
> 
> However, an alternative proposal whose main advantage is its complexity
> is:
> Make Quickness increase AG (0 + 1 / Rank, as per SoS), which has a
> similar effect on IV and TMR, and with AG 22-25 and AG 26+, moves a
> little towards the two-action of Quickness but with more managable
> results. Adding extra pass actions at ?36? and ?46? gives reasons for
> ranking and for having naturally high AG.
> This seriously depowers elves and their natural AG26, which along with
> plate tanks at AG 30+ is probably sufficient reason to screw this idea
> up and chuck it away. Maybe we can only double modified AG?
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Bean
> Sent: Friday, 26 August 2005 10:55 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Quickness
> 
> 
> I would like to see a rule change.
> I think it would be for the betterment of the game (more enjoyable).
> 
> I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double actions, but
> instead: Increase the duration. Make the spell add +2 per rank to IV in
> combat. Make the spell add 1 +1 per 3 ranks to TME.
> 
> This would still make the spell critical in combats (as it is now) but
> it would change the run time effect.
> 
> The problem I have with Quickness:
> When you take into account quickened characters you can end up with 10
> parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and is less fun because
> players often become confused over what part of the pulse they are in
> and if they have acted already. In general it slows down the game.
> 
> What do others think?
> 
> 
> Jonathan Bean
> 
> Business Development Manager
> TME - Its all about time
> Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
> Fax 448 1051           Auckalnd, New Zealand
> Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
> Free 0800 55 33 66
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Subject[dq] Quickness
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 22:44:49 +1200
>I wish to see Quickness changed to not provide double actions, but instead:
>Increase the duration.
>Make the spell add +2 per rank to IV in combat.
>Make the spell add 1 +1 per 3 ranks to TME.

Okay so instead of getting a +10 to IV and whacking the shit out of some
thing twice in a Pulse. 
You want a front line fighter to get more IV. and more TMR.

Now as a Warrior I already have a bonus to IV giving me some thing in the
order 60 IV, currently I just add 10 nice and easy, and get to hit the poor
fool in front of me for D+11 twice a pulse. Few unquickened creatures can
beat my unquickened IV, as I have High Ag which also gives me a good TMR.
Acting twice means I can move twice as far a Pulse or stun an opponent and
move to rescue a fellow party member.

The proposed change means I add the rank of the Quickness to my IV. 66 for
rank 6, 75 for rank 15.
Combat has always been in favor of the high IV, instead of quickness on both
sides leveling the field again, it becomes he who has the Highest ranked
Quickness wins IV and gets to Stun your mages or warriors so they can't
fight back.
Lets face it if I've got a 120+ SC and 10 point armor so has the opposition
and the weapons to get though it.
I hit them half as often extending the length of combats (game time at least
if not real time). And giving them longer to hit me doing me more damage.
I get less TMR at low Medium ranks, rarely a problem in combat, and I'm not
typical some will gain. What you do loose is the option to kill and move on
to another opponent to support or rescue a fellow in the same pulse.
 
And you loose the Prepare and Cast in a pulse, I'd like to stop that anyway.

>The problem I have with Quickness:
>When you take into account quickened characters you can end up with 10
>parts to the pulse and this makes it drag out and is less fun because
>players often become confused over what part of the pulse they are in and
>if they have acted already. In general it slows down the game.

Changing the rules won't completely solve your problem, disorganized players
and/or GMs will still be disorganized and confused about where in the Pulse
they are or what Pulse they are in. 
(Not a critique of anyone in particular, just an observation, and even the
best organized have bad days, when they just can't concentrate.)

I'm not sure combats will be quicker as unquickened and quickened match
actions, the unquickened last longer, more GM dice rolling. Potentially more
damage to the quickened, good for unquickened PCs bad for quickened ones.
I can see a few more character deaths in this.

All in all I'm not sure that this change quickness is a good idea, I'd have
to see it play tested.

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial EMs - WAS: Other broken things.
FromRoss Alexander
DateFri, 26 Aug 2005 11:59:14 +0100
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Hi Ian et al,

Here is a character specific variant of the elven racial abilties to 
stir up some trouble (attached PDF)


Cheers,

Ross

Ian at dawn's haven wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>I would like to see the racial EMs adjusted.
>
>The game was written to balance PCs over several months, not decades.
>
>I see two alternatives:
>
>1. Standardise the races
>1a. Give humans + benefits so that they also have a racial em of 1.1.
>1b give all others -benefits until their racial em is 1.1
>1c make all racial em 1.0
>
>2. For every Y ep earnt, the racial EM goes down by 0.1, to a minimum of 1.0
>
>I think Y should be something like 100,000.
>
>I would prefer number 2, although I have always wanted humans to have a
>possitive ability relative to all other races (such as humans can get on
>with other races better (+bonus to reaction rolls).
>
>Does anyone wish to discuss this further off-list to see where we can get
>too before the coffee freezes over?
>
>Ian
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>  
>

-- 
Ross Alexander
NEC Europe Limited
Tel: +44 20 8752 3394
Mob: +44 7836 360 318


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