Messages for 30 August 2005

Subject	Re: [dq] Spell caster init.
From	William Dymock
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 07:12:25 +1200
This is a supremly bad idea. Spell castering, like all fire actions should not have an engaged initiative. In an engaged situation they automatically lose. Like some prat with a bow in melee, they are unable to respond to the presumed 'flurry of blows' from their opponents. To make life more perilous they are required to make a concentration check. And I don't care how damn wonderful your (N)PC is. It doesn't matter how fast, or dextrous or agile or knowledgable they are. Some goober with a weapon is always going to beat you if only because you're too busy waving an arm about and muttering to bother with even a half decent set of blocks/dodges. One of the ways to counter enemy mages is to engage them. Better yet is to grapple (which eliminates the possiability of fire actions). The non-existance of engaged initiative for magic is one of the big foils to mages in the game. The introduction of mage armour to everyone, their granny and their granny's cat has almost eliminated the other one. Don't mess round with it. The current rules require some tactical choices and fore-thought on behalf of characters. It benefits the purists and makes problems for those who mix-n-match. Oh, and while we're on the subject of spell casting. Having a shield prepared while casting should induce a penalty of -5 per MD mod of shield. William -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Spell caster init.
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 08:13:04 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACD6.0FF28CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It would help if we knew exactly what you were referring to... > -----Original Message----- > From: William Dymock [mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz] > Sent: Tuesday, 30 August 2005 07:12 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Spell caster init. > > > This is a supremly bad idea. Spell castering, like all fire > actions should > not have an engaged initiative. In an engaged situation they > automatically > lose. Like some prat with a bow in melee, they are unable to > respond to the > presumed 'flurry of blows' from their opponents. To make life > more perilous > they are required to make a concentration check. > > And I don't care how damn wonderful your (N)PC is. It doesn't > matter how > fast, or dextrous or agile or knowledgable they are. Some > goober with a > weapon is always going to beat you if only because you're too > busy waving an > arm about and muttering to bother with even a half decent set of > blocks/dodges. > > One of the ways to counter enemy mages is to engage them. > Better yet is to > grapple (which eliminates the possiability of fire actions). The > non-existance of engaged initiative for magic is one of the > big foils to > mages in the game. The introduction of mage armour to > everyone, their granny > and their granny's cat has almost eliminated the other one. > Don't mess round > with it. > > The current rules require some tactical choices and > fore-thought on behalf > of characters. It benefits the purists and makes problems for > those who > mix-n-match. > > Oh, and while we're on the subject of spell casting. Having a shield > prepared while casting should induce a penalty of -5 per MD > mod of shield. > > William > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACD6.0FF28CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Spell caster init.</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=2>It would help if we knew exactly what you were referring to...</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> From: William Dymock [<A HREF="mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz">mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Sent: Tuesday, 30 August 2005 07:12</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Subject: Re: [dq] Spell caster init.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> This is a supremly bad idea. Spell castering, like all fire </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> actions should</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> not have an engaged initiative. In an engaged situation they </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> automatically</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> lose. Like some prat with a bow in melee, they are unable to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> respond to the</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> presumed 'flurry of blows' from their opponents. To make life </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> more perilous</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> they are required to make a concentration check.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> And I don't care how damn wonderful your (N)PC is. It doesn't </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> matter how</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> fast, or dextrous or agile or knowledgable they are. Some </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> goober with a</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> weapon is always going to beat you if only because you're too </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> busy waving an</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> arm about and muttering to bother with even a half decent set of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> blocks/dodges.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> One of the ways to counter enemy mages is to engage them. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Better yet is to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> grapple (which eliminates the possiability of fire actions). The</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> non-existance of engaged initiative for magic is one of the </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> big foils to</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> mages in the game. The introduction of mage armour to </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> everyone, their granny</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> and their granny's cat has almost eliminated the other one. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Don't mess round</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> with it.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> The current rules require some tactical choices and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> fore-thought on behalf</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> of characters. It benefits the purists and makes problems for </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> those who</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> mix-n-match.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Oh, and while we're on the subject of spell casting. Having a shield</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> prepared while casting should induce a penalty of -5 per MD </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> mod of shield.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> William</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=2>> </FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACD6.0FF28CE0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Spell caster init.
From	Johanna and Hamish
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:16:44 +1200
Yup - I get your point. So casting and drinking potions always lose when engaged with someone with a weapon. Hamish Brown Director Zenergy Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world 119 Mt Eden Rd, Auckland www.zenergyglobal.com -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of William Dymock Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 7:12 AM To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Spell caster init. This is a supremly bad idea. Spell castering, like all fire actions should not have an engaged initiative. In an engaged situation they automatically lose. Like some prat with a bow in melee, they are unable to respond to the presumed 'flurry of blows' from their opponents. To make life more perilous they are required to make a concentration check. And I don't care how damn wonderful your (N)PC is. It doesn't matter how fast, or dextrous or agile or knowledgable they are. Some goober with a weapon is always going to beat you if only because you're too busy waving an arm about and muttering to bother with even a half decent set of blocks/dodges. One of the ways to counter enemy mages is to engage them. Better yet is to grapple (which eliminates the possiability of fire actions). The non-existance of engaged initiative for magic is one of the big foils to mages in the game. The introduction of mage armour to everyone, their granny and their granny's cat has almost eliminated the other one. Don't mess round with it. The current rules require some tactical choices and fore-thought on behalf of characters. It benefits the purists and makes problems for those who mix-n-match. Oh, and while we're on the subject of spell casting. Having a shield prepared while casting should induce a penalty of -5 per MD mod of shield. William -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] In for a Penny in for a shilling
From	Michael Parkinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:28:00 +1200
Struan wrote... > I will reiterate and clarify. > > The (possibly major) problem I see with using Spell Rank as a > part of the IV > calculation is that it means you need to know which spell you > are going to > be casting in order to determine when you get to decide which > spell you are > going to be casting. Actually, to clarify, this is not a problem in the cast pulse. Except for Namers, the cast must be preceded by a preparation action, when you MUST announce the spell your are going to cast. See §7.3, immediately under the heading Casting Mechanics -- namely: <QUOTE> Preparation The Mage’s player announces the spell and length of preparation (either 5 seconds, 1 minute, or a number of hours). They may break off their preparation at any time and abort the casting process ...(etc) </QUOTE> The only problem comes when one is preparing -- in which case I suggest a possible solution is that Preparation is like other magical initiative except that the spell-rank is treated as Zero, since the act of preparation (in terms of game mechanics) is invariable and irrelevant to the actual spell being prepared except for the time that you state you will spend preparing. ... In which case it means, for most characters I suspect [Well it would for SF & Hagan under all the formulae suggested so far], that someone with a prepared weapon could give up the option of using the weapon & (with lower initiative) prepare a spell. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] General Initiative
From	Martin Dickson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:25:38 +1200
Noel Livingston (DSL AK) wrote: >...can't see why perception has anything to do with who >hits first, afterall agility is how quick you are. > From the explanation of characteristics: "Agility is a measure of a character’s ability to manoeuvre their whole body and their speed of movement. The Agility characteristic represents the character’s litheness of body, the speed at which the character can run, and their ability to dodge with or contort their body." Hard to see why standing still and casting a spell would use Agility. MD on the other hand: "Manual Dexterity is a measure of a character’s control with their hands. The Manual Dexterity characteristic represents the character’s hand-to-eye coordination, the speed at which the character can perform a complex task with their hands, and the ability to manipulate their hands." Wouldn't spell casting (or using a bow) fall under "perform a complex task with their hands"? Perception is a measure of a character's "intuition developed as a result of their experience", suggesting that a more experienced adventurer will be able to guess / predict what an opponent is likely to do and adjust for that. Also, as the only stat that automatically starts low and can be raised to racial maximum it is as close as we have to a measure of experience. Using perception as part of the IV calculatin means that (all other attributes being the same) an experienced character will act before an inexperienced one. Cheers, Martin > Engaged, unengaged, >movement and magic all mixed up with the same initative. > >>From a gm perspective you have a list of entities and their initatives >and run through them in that order for the entire combat, crossing them >off as they have finished their action. Its easy. > >Ive used a similar system in the D20 Dungeons and Dragons system and it >works fine and doesn't feel paticulary unrealistic. > >Cheers Noel > > >-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > > -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] In for a Penny in for a shilling
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:32:06 +1200
> The only problem comes when one is preparing -- in which case > I suggest a possible solution is that Preparation is like > other magical initiative except that the spell-rank is > treated as Zero, since the act of preparation (in terms of > game mechanics) is invariable and irrelevant to the actual > spell being prepared except for the time that you state you > will spend preparing. ... In which case it means, for most > characters I suspect [Well it would for SF & Hagan under all > the formulae suggested so far], that someone with a prepared > weapon could give up the option of using the weapon & (with > lower initiative) prepare a spell. The problem actually comes when you have 40+ different initatives and the brains of your GM explodes while trying to work out where you are going to go in the initative sequence every time you cast a different spell. Then the problem becomes trying to get brain grey stains out of the carpet and couch. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Spell caster init.
From	Martin Dickson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:37:32 +1200
Umm... not under the current rules they don't -- (else someone please correct me). "Cast" is an available engaged action. The option reads: "Like all other actions, Casting is resolved on the figure’s initiative". Engaged IV is AG + PC + Weapon Rk (Unarmed may be used if no weapon prepared). Pass actions (e.g. Drinking a potion) is also an available engaged action. It therefore occurs on the figure's engaged IV If William wishes to propose that they _should_ automatically lose he is free to do so, but that would also be a chance to the current rules. Cheers, Martin PS: There does appear to be some inconsistency in that Fire is not a listed engaged action. Johanna and Hamish wrote: >Yup - I get your point. > >So casting and drinking potions always lose when engaged with someone with a >weapon. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of >William Dymock > >This is a supremly bad idea. Spell castering, like all fire actions should >not have an engaged initiative. In an engaged situation they automatically >lose. > -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Spell caster init.
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:40:20 +1200
> "Cast" is an available engaged action. The option reads: > "Like all other > actions, Casting is resolved on the figure's initiative". > Engaged IV is AG + PC + Weapon Rk (Unarmed may be used if no weapon prepared). Interestingly enough it appears that under the current rules being good at Judo does make you a better spellcaster :-0) Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] General Initiative
From	Michael Woodhams
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:52:44 +1200
On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 09:25, Martin Dickson wrote: > Wouldn't spell casting (or using a bow) fall under "perform a complex > task with their hands"? That depends on whether spell casting is more like piano playing or like tai chi - either MA or AG is justifiable. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq] Initiative
From	Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:53:36 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACE4.1B78F1D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we are to continue with this IV discussion, I think we should reason back from what we want. =20 Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we should work out what effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired result. =20 * fighters should be a little faster than mages at all levels * mages should always lose IV to fighters in melee * archers should use weapon rank * Mages should use MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, etc. * Each character should have their own IV * an unengaged group should have a collective IV * IV should vary by action * IV should not vary by (unengaged) action * fast archers should be able to shoot into melee before some fighters =20 etc. =20 Until you work out a consensus on goals, there will be many posts on irrelevant details. =20 Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACE4.1B78F1D7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If we = are to=20 continue with this IV discussion, I think we should reason back from = what we=20 want.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here = is a list of=20 ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we should work out what = effect we=20 want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired=20 result.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* = fighters should be=20 a little faster than mages at all levels</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* = mages should=20 always lose IV to fighters in melee</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* = archers should use=20 weapon rank</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* = Mages should use=20 MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* Each = character=20 should have their own IV</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* an = unengaged group=20 should have a collective IV</FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* IV = should vary by=20 action</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* IV = should not vary=20 by (unengaged) action</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* fast = archers=20 should be able to shoot into melee before some = fighters</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Until = you work out a=20 consensus on goals, there will be many posts on irrelevant=20 details.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><SPAN = class=3D932493521-29082005><SPAN=20 class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D932493521-29082005><SPAN = class=3D932493521-29082005><SPAN=20 class=3D932493521-29082005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></BODY></HTML> =00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACE4.1B78F1D7-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] General Initiative
From	Michael Parkinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:57:24 +1200
Martin wrote... > Hard to see why standing still and casting a spell would use Agility. Absolutely -- moreover I think that it is important that IFF we invent Magical Initiative (and there is clearly a drive to consider it) > MD on the other hand: "Manual Dexterity is a measure of a character’s > control with their hands. The Manual Dexterity characteristic > represents > the character’s hand-to-eye coordination, the speed at which the > character can perform a complex task with their hands, and > the ability > to manipulate their hands." > > Wouldn't spell casting (or using a bow) fall under "perform a complex > task with their hands"? Bow -- maybe; thrown weapon -- maybe; although it is my impression that combat, even with missile weapons would involve litheness ... the archer moving about to hit a target that won't stand still: if you know someone is firing at you (not just threatening to fire), you either duck behind something solid or weave about. Again it depends on what we want. Add MD if you think it would improve the game, but I don't think it will -- there are better alternatives: MA, Purification, & Rank are my preferences. But please DO suggest any other factors if you think that they are possibly relevant. But ... at no stage do our current rules imply that spell is anyway dependent on MD [Alchemy yes]. Lets keep magic at the unsubtle arm-waving level [No; this is NOT an argument for AG; Martin's previous comment is vaild]. Magic requires MA & expended experience to be successful. The question is what give a sufficient edge/drop when considering Magical Initiative. I just think we shouldn't introduce MD into the mix. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:04:18 +1200
> Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we should work out what > effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired result. Very good point Andrew. It comes down to whether we want Unengaged to remain as a separate phase in the initative. If yes then there is no requirement for further initative discussions. IF we want to merge it with the Engaged phase then we need to have the discussions. So is there a concensus that Engaged and unengaged should be merged together? Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Struan Judd
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:19:02 +1200
------=_Part_89_30461601.1125353942845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline /me votes for merge On 8/30/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote: >=20 > > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we > should work out what > > effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired > result. >=20 > Very good point Andrew. >=20 > It comes down to whether we want Unengaged to remain as a separate phase > in the initative. >=20 > If yes then there is no requirement for further initative discussions. >=20 > IF we want to merge it with the Engaged phase then we need to have the > discussions. >=20 > So is there a concensus that Engaged and unengaged should be merged > together? >=20 > Mandos > /s >=20 >=20 > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > ------=_Part_89_30461601.1125353942845 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline /me votes for merge<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 8/30/05, <b = class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> <<a href=3D"mailto:Mand= osM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); marg= in: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we<br>= should work out what<br>> effect we want first, and then get formulae th= at fit the desired<br>result.<br><br>Very good point Andrew.<br><br>It come= s down to whether we want Unengaged to remain as a separate phase <br>in the initative.<br><br>If yes then there is no requirement for furthe= r initative discussions.<br><br>IF we want to merge it with the Engaged pha= se then we need to have the<br>discussions.<br><br>So is there a concensus = that Engaged and unengaged should be merged <br>together?<br><br>Mandos<br>/s<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailt= o:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --= <br></blockquote></div><br> ------=_Part_89_30461601.1125353942845-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq] Initiative -- consensus
From	Michael Parkinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:35:39 +1200
Yes, I would like engaged & unengaged initiatives merged somehow. Another aspect on the design points to consider after consensus ... Should there be a random element per pulse? [At the moment there is for unengaged but not engaged]. If there ought to be a totally random element, should it be individual or based on factions. > -----Original Message----- > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of > Mandos Mitchinson > Sent: Tuesday, 30 August 2005 10:04 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative > > > > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we > should work out what > > effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired > result. > > Very good point Andrew. > > It comes down to whether we want Unengaged to remain as a > separate phase > in the initative. > > If yes then there is no requirement for further initative > discussions. > > IF we want to merge it with the Engaged phase then we need to have the > discussions. > > So is there a concensus that Engaged and unengaged should be merged > together? > > Mandos > /s > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Jonathan Bean
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:37:52 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AD4E.E016C490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also think if and only if IV is changed then I think that E&E mages remain/retain the only spell (Quickness in what ever form) that clearly helps IV within the system. Jonathan Bean Business Development Manager TME - Its all about time Phone 966 1656 PO Box 35902, Browns Bay Fax 448 1051 Auckalnd, New Zealand Mob 021 173 4060 www.tme.co.nz Free 0800 55 33 66 _____ From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK) Sent: 30 August 2005 9:54 a.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq] Initiative If we are to continue with this IV discussion, I think we should reason back from what we want. Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we should work out what effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired result. * fighters should be a little faster than mages at all levels * mages should always lose IV to fighters in melee * archers should use weapon rank * Mages should use MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, etc. * Each character should have their own IV * an unengaged group should have a collective IV * IV should vary by action * IV should not vary by (unengaged) action * fast archers should be able to shoot into melee before some fighters etc. Until you work out a consensus on goals, there will be many posts on irrelevant details. Andrew ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AD4E.E016C490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <title>Message</title> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"State"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceType"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PlaceName"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"address" = downloadurl=3D"http://www.5iamas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"Street" = downloadurl=3D"http://www.5iantlavalampft-com:office:smarttags"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place" downloadurl=3D"http://www.5iantlavalamp.com/"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City" = downloadurl=3D"http://www.5iamas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"country-region" downloadurl=3D"http://www.5iantlavalamp.com/"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PersonName"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- / Font Definitions / @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} / Style Definitions / p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:595.3pt 841.9pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I also think if and only if IV is = changed then I think that E&E mages remain/retain the only spell (Quickness = in what ever form) that clearly helps IV within the system. = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New = Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development = Manager</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about = time</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone = <st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966 1656         PO Box = 35902</st1:address></st1:Street>, <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> = <st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font = color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448 1051           = <st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckalnd</st1:City>, = <st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font = color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 = 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz</span></font>= <font color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free = 0800 55 33 66</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm = 0cm 4.0pt'> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew Withy (<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">DSL</st1:City> = <st1:State w:st=3D"on">AK</st1:State></st1:place>)<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 30 August 2005 9:54 = a.m.<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName = w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] = Initiative</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>If we are to continue with this IV discussion, I = think we should reason back from what we want.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They = contradict, but we should work out what effect we want first, and then get formulae = that fit the desired result.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'> fighters should be a little faster than mages at = all levels</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* mages should always lose IV to fighters in = melee</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* archers should use weapon = rank</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* Mages should use MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, = etc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* Each character should have their own = IV</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* an unengaged group should have a collective = IV</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* IV should vary by = action</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* IV should not vary by (unengaged) = action</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>* fast archers should be able to shoot into melee = before some fighters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>etc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Until you work out a consensus on goals, there will = be many posts on irrelevant details.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5AD4E.E016C490-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Chris Caulfield
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:46:05 +1200 (NZST)
Spell(s) surely! Slowness helps IV as well. > I also think if and only if IV is changed then I think that E&E mages > remain/retain the only spell (Quickness in what ever form) that clearly > helps IV within the system. > > > > Jonathan Bean > > > > Business Development Manager > > TME - Its all about time > > Phone 966 1656 PO Box 35902, Browns Bay > > Fax 448 1051 Auckalnd, New Zealand > > Mob 021 173 4060 www.tme.co.nz > > Free 0800 55 33 66 > > _____ > > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of > Andrew Withy (DSL AK) > Sent: 30 August 2005 9:54 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] Initiative > > > > If we are to continue with this IV discussion, I think we should reason > back from what we want. > > > > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we > should work out what effect we want first, and then get formulae that > fit the desired result. > > > > * fighters should be a little faster than mages at all levels > > * mages should always lose IV to fighters in melee > > * archers should use weapon rank > > * Mages should use MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, etc. > > * Each character should have their own IV > > * an unengaged group should have a collective IV > > * IV should vary by action > > * IV should not vary by (unengaged) action > > * fast archers should be able to shoot into melee before some fighters > > > > etc. > > > > Until you work out a consensus on goals, there will be many posts on > irrelevant details. > > > > Andrew -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Jonathan Bean
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:55:26 +1200
Yes spell(s) not just quickness. My point is - if it is a positive effect to Spell Casting IV then E&E mages only. I would not like to see any additional spells effecting (positively) Spell Casting IV if it ever came about. I feel it is important to maintain this E&E uniqueness. Lowering Spell Casting IV is not really unique E&E effect as Agony also could be said to affect it. Jonathan Bean Business Development Manager TME - Its all about time Phone 966 1656 PO Box 35902, Browns Bay Fax 448 1051 Auckalnd, New Zealand Mob 021 173 4060 www.tme.co.nz Free 0800 55 33 66 > -----Original Message----- > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of > Chris Caulfield > Sent: 30 August 2005 10:46 a.m. > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative > > Spell(s) surely! Slowness helps IV as well. > > > I also think if and only if IV is changed then I think that E&E mages > > remain/retain the only spell (Quickness in what ever form) that clearly > > helps IV within the system. > > > > > > > > Jonathan Bean > > > > > > > > Business Development Manager > > > > TME - Its all about time > > > > Phone 966 1656 PO Box 35902, Browns Bay > > > > Fax 448 1051 Auckalnd, New Zealand > > > > Mob 021 173 4060 www.tme.co.nz > > > > Free 0800 55 33 66 > > > > _____ > > > > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of > > Andrew Withy (DSL AK) > > Sent: 30 August 2005 9:54 a.m. > > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > > Subject: [dq] Initiative > > > > > > > > If we are to continue with this IV discussion, I think we should reason > > back from what we want. > > > > > > > > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we > > should work out what effect we want first, and then get formulae that > > fit the desired result. > > > > > > > > * fighters should be a little faster than mages at all levels > > > > * mages should always lose IV to fighters in melee > > > > * archers should use weapon rank > > > > * Mages should use MA, spell rank, MD, AG, PC, etc. > > > > * Each character should have their own IV > > > > * an unengaged group should have a collective IV > > > > * IV should vary by action > > > > * IV should not vary by (unengaged) action > > > > * fast archers should be able to shoot into melee before some fighters > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > Until you work out a consensus on goals, there will be many posts on > > irrelevant details. > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative -- consensus
From	Jonathan Bean
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:59:04 +1200
I would like engaged & unengaged initiatives merged, as long as E&E mages are not adversely affected (presuming more that just this gets changed at the same time, which is not a given). Jonathan Bean Business Development Manager TME - Its all about time Phone 966 1656 PO Box 35902, Browns Bay Fax 448 1051 Auckalnd, New Zealand Mob 021 173 4060 www.tme.co.nz Free 0800 55 33 66 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:11:39 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACEF.02E9FA72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for individual unengaged initative. =20 This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and (possibly) to recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from occuring in the easiest order. =20 It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified. =20 Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACEF.02E9FA72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>I=20 think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for = individual=20 unengaged initative.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>This=20 requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and = (possibly)=20 to recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from occuring = in the=20 easiest order.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>It is=20 a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be=20 justified.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104083522-29082005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> =00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACEF.02E9FA72-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:21:04 +1200
> I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for individual > unengaged initative. > > This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and > (possibly) to recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from > occuring in the easiest order. > > It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified. It can certainly appear that way, however form practical experience what happens (as long as the numbers do not fluctuate wildly) is that the party order remains mostly static and players will be aware of the person before and after them in the sequence. Combat becomes a case of running through the party with bad guys scattered between them. So you effectivly run through a list. As the list does not vary often, everyone knows where they are, who is before them, who is after and the whole combat gets faster. People know when they will be asked for their action and are more likely to have the action on the tip of their tongues. The main rider here is that a persons init value does not fly around like and out of control elevator. If each pulse requires a new order that would be a pain in the arse. In my experience you gain a 30-50% speed increase in complicated combats by using a merged engaged. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:28:38 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACF1.620CD0B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree. A consequence of this is that it is important that individuals don't need to recalc their IV often - changing with the spell being cast is unacceptable IMO. Errol -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz] Sent: Tuesday, 30 August 2005 11:12 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for individual unengaged initative. This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and (possibly) to recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from occuring in the easiest order. It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified. Andrew ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACF1.620CD0B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <TITLE>Message</TITLE> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=937241323-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I agree.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=937241323-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=937241323-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>A consequence of this is that it is important that individuals don't need to recalc their IV often - changing with the spell being cast is unacceptable IMO.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=937241323-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=937241323-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 30 August 2005 11:12<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Initiative<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for individual unengaged initative.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and (possibly) to recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from occuring in the easiest order.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104083522-29082005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5ACF1.620CD0B0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10
From	Helen Saggers
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:43:20 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5AD58.060782D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes the cost of Merchant looks a little high but currently Merchant is a new subskill per three ranks. Not one per rank which Andrew was going to take into account with his Pricing. Yes the list of subskills is luxury items, but the BC for common stuff is high, every good merchant knows the Price of Fish in Seagate, but the Price of Diamonds is much harder unless you are a Gem dealer, a specialist in gems. The whole point of allowing subskill at any rank is to allow characters to be able to repair their off the peg rank 0 imp plate or behave acceptably at the Ball with out having to have high even master ranks in the Skills. As it stands we end up with Adventurers with high to Master Ranks in skill just so they can round out the character. However the Price and time has been set to still encourage at least medium ranks in a skill before branching out as well as to discourage low-medium Adventurers casually picking up all the subskills in things like Armorer or Thief. I'll vote for it Andrew. :-) Helen I have a binder, binder a Mechanian go together. I have a warrior that can Design a fortified wall, to build it, put a gate in it, and a siege engine on it she would need to be a master Mechanian. It seems silly to use a master to wall a village or a small outpost (my intent, see thirteenth warrior). Masters should be for fancy Palaces, and big cities. _____ From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) Subject: [dq] purchase of extra subskills below Rank 10 To be voted on at the guild meeting. That the cost for purchasing addtional subskills for the following skills be changed to the associated EP values extra subskill costs: Armourer 5,000ep Beastmaster 5,000ep Courtier 1,000ep Mechanician 2,500ep Merchant 4,000ep Military Sci 3,000ep Spy (proposed) 2,500ep Thief (proposed)4,000ep Troubadour 1,000ep Weaponsmith 5,000ep Allthese subskills to take 4 weeks. For these skills, additional subskills can be learnedat any Rank. That theadditional subskill EP & time to be reduced to 75% at Rank 8 and 50% at Rank 10. ========================== This closely matches current rates (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) forRank 8+. Its simple, has a "logical" foundation, and feels right to me. Andrew ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5AD58.060782D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <title>Message</title> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions / @font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} / Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes the cost of Merchant looks a = little high but currently Merchant is a new subskill per three ranks. Not one = per rank which Andrew was going to take into account with his = Pricing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes the list of subskills is luxury = items, but the BC for common stuff is high, every good merchant knows the Price = of Fish in Seagate, but the Price of Diamonds is much harder unless you are a = Gem dealer, a specialist in gems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The whole point of allowing = subskill at any rank is to allow characters to be able to repair their off the peg = rank 0 imp plate or behave acceptably at the Ball with out having to have high even = master ranks in the Skills.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As it stands we end up with = Adventurers with high to Master Ranks in skill just so they can round out the = character.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>However the Price and time has been = set to still encourage at least medium ranks in a skill before branching out as = well as to discourage low-medium Adventurers casually picking up all the = subskills in things like Armorer or Thief.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’ll vote for it = Andrew.  </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family: Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Helen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have a binder, binder a Mechanian = go together.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have a warrior that can Design a fortified wall, to build it, put a gate in it, and a siege engine on it = she would need to be a master Mechanian. It seems silly to use a master to = wall a village or a small outpost (my intent, see thirteenth warrior). = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Masters should be for fancy = Palaces, and big cities.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = Andrew Withy (DSL AK)<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] purchase of = extra subskills below Rank 10</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>To be voted on at the guild = meeting.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>That the cost for purchasing = addtional subskills for the following skills be changed to the associated EP values </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>extra subskill = costs:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Armourer        = 5,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Beastmaster     5,000ep </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Courtier        = 1,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Mechanician     2,500ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Merchant        = 4,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Military Sci    3,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 = color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Spy (proposed)  2,500ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Thief (proposed)4,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Troubadour      1,000ep</s= pan></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier = New";color:navy'>Weaponsmith     5,000ep</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All</span></font><font size=3D2 = color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>these subskills to </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>take 4 = weeks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>For these skills, additional = subskills can be learned</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>at any = Rank.</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:blue'> </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy = face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span= ></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>That theadditional subskill = </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'>EP & time </span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>to be reduced to 75% at Rank 8 and 50% at Rank = 10.</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial; color:navy'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This closely matches current rates = (except Armourer/Weaponsmith) forRank 8+. Its simple, has a "logical" foundation, and feels right to me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C5AD58.060782D0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Martin Dickson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:38:21 +1200
Andrew Withy (DSL AK) wrote: > I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for > individual unengaged initative. Tend to agree, though ideally it is a vote simply for individual initiative (one value rather than two). > This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative > and (possibly) to recalculate it. It also prevents many group > maneouvers from occuring in the easiest order. This requires everyone know their single initiative, and that value should preferably be fairly static (at least as static as current engaged IVs). It could introduce some overhead when attempting group maneouvers by unengaged PCs, but on the flip-side enables some forms of group maneouver that are not possible with a split engaged / unengaged IV. > It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified. I'm not at all sure that it introduces complexity provided the IV is reasonably stable, but, if justification is needed then I'd suggest that it allows for more integrated party actions with better support for a range of combat roles, by allowing ranged fighters, such as archers and pure mages to support engaged companions. I'm not sure that correcting oddness is a justification, but the current rules are a bit odd: (again, please tell me if I'm wrong) Alice (clumsy mage) and Bob (fighter) are fighting Carol (fighter) and David (nimble mage). A & B are engaged with C. D is unengaged. A, B, and C act on their engaged IVs, all of which occur before D's action. Even if Alice decides to ignore Carol and cast at David her cast action occurs before David's. Or consider the case of the "Optionally Engaged Figure" (A figure who is adjacent to a hostile figure, but is not in any opponent’s Melee Zone, may choose whether to be treated as engaged or unengaged, and acts on the appropriate Initiative.) So, Eric stands behind an enemy (Freda) but chooses to throw his javelin at another enemy (George) who is unengaged. Eric's action occurs before George's simply by virtue of Eric standing behind Freda. Just seems odd to me. -- Martin Dickson ph: +64 9 3730400 x5115 User Experience Engineer fax: +64 9 3730401 Strategy, Research & Architecture email: martin.dickson@peace.com Peace Software http://www.peace.com -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Engaged + unengaged.
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 11:58:05 +1200
Something to consider. When I merged the two phases I did keep the unengaged rolls and phase for the combat until people engaged in melee. I found it made the start of combats a little more interesting as the two teams faced off and manouvered a bit more than they do with the current system and tended to use the unengaged to gain positional advantage before the actual fighting started. We may want to do away with it but I tried both and found that combat seemed better with the Unengaged manouvering. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Stephen Martin
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:09:03 +1200 (NZST)
Individual IV is more to keep track of, but it is not that big a step. We already use individual IV for engaged. It could be argued that individual IV is simpler because then everyone is on the same scale. Characters are resolved one at a time even if all acting at the same time, someone always goes first. But I think any combined IV scale needs to allow for fast people to optionally slow down and act when their friend does. In this way parties can co-ordinate their actions, but they have to work around the slowest in their group. I think the key to avoiding individual IVs becoming complicated is to keep them reasonably static. While players can (mostly) cope with adjusting their IV from pulse to pulse, the gm usually has more to keep track of. Listing them all in IV order keeps it manageable, but if their IV order changes each pulse then I'd hate to run more than half a dozen bad guys without a spreadsheet to resort them for me. That said, I'd cope. There'd just be a lot of bud guys who have the same rank in all their spells, skills, and weapons (or whatever it's based on). :) The initial point that started this deluge of emails was with the stated goal of making combat simpler. Realism almost always comes at the cost of simplicity, I think we need to keep that in mind as we go forward and not create a monster that we will regret. I think that we should be able to create a single IV system for all actions that will not make combat much more complex, but will feel less artificially divided. I think this is worth trying. Worst case, we fail and continue with what we have used for 20+ years. Cheers, Stephen. DSL AK said: > I think a vote for merging unengaged & engaged is a vote for individual unengaged initative. > > This requires everyone to know their individual unengaged initiative and (possibly) to > recalculate it. It also prevents many group maneouvers from occuring in the easiest order. > > It is a complexity or overhead which I think needs to be justified. > > Andrew -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Helen Saggers
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:32:15 +1200
I vote Merge. A High fighter, faster than a high Mage, but Bob Bunny out done by Ingelgoon Don't use spell rank, needs to be relativity static. Get a Number list 100 to 10 mark your NPCs initiatives, first round go down the numbers, after the first round you know who goes when, unless someone changes weapon (magic being a weapon). Helen -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Mandos Mitchinson Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative > Here is a list of ideas from random posts. They contradict, but we should work out what > effect we want first, and then get formulae that fit the desired result. Very good point Andrew. It comes down to whether we want Unengaged to remain as a separate phase in the initative. If yes then there is no requirement for further initative discussions. IF we want to merge it with the Engaged phase then we need to have the discussions. So is there a concensus that Engaged and unengaged should be merged together? Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:38:15 +1200
> I vote Merge. > > A High fighter, faster than a high Mage, but Bob Bunny out > done by Ingelgoon > > Don't use spell rank, needs to be relativity static. > > Get a Number list 100 to 10 mark your NPCs initiatives, first > round go down the numbers, after the first round you know who > goes when, unless someone changes weapon (magic being a weapon). Or even better, get people to sit in initative order so you can go round the room and simply note where your bad guys are 'sitting' :-) Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Clare Baldock
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 12:42:18 +1200
On 30/08/2005, at 10:04, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > So is there a concensus that Engaged and unengaged should be merged > together? I don't think they need to be, I actually think it will make combats more difficult to run :-) I am not vehemently against it though, cheers, clare -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Initiative
From	Johanna and Hamish
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:43:12 +1200
I like merged - seems simpler and more realistic to me. Also like Mando's idea of not losing the early unengaged IV and Mil Sci maneuvering. H Hamish Brown Director Zenergy Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world 119 Mt Eden Rd, Auckland www.zenergyglobal.com -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mandos Mitchinson Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 12:38 PM To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Initiative > I vote Merge. > > A High fighter, faster than a high Mage, but Bob Bunny out > done by Ingelgoon > > Don't use spell rank, needs to be relativity static. > > Get a Number list 100 to 10 mark your NPCs initiatives, first > round go down the numbers, after the first round you know who > goes when, unless someone changes weapon (magic being a weapon). Or even better, get people to sit in initative order so you can go round the room and simply note where your bad guys are 'sitting' :-) Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq-announce] Training clarification
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:47:05 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1D.DF20E920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1D.DF20E920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>Training clarification</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1D.DF20E920-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq-announce] Training clarification
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:52:31 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" [This came through with blank text, so trying again] Just to record (and get into the formal rules) what most people are playing, we may as well vote on: To be added as a point under 6 Ranking EP is spent as per below but note the following. "Time spent training for a particular rank of an ability does NOT have to be continuous. However training for a given rank must be completed within 6 months of starting training for that rank." Cheers Errol PS Section 6 would benefit from a re-write, especially as it relates to Names. I'll try to get something together for the next rulebook. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>Training clarification</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>[This came through with blank text, so trying again] = </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Just to record (and get into the formal rules) what = most people are playing, we may as well vote on:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To be added as a point under</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>6 Ranking</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>EP is spent as per below but note the = following.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>"Time spent training for a particular rank of an = ability does NOT have to be continuous. However training for a given = rank must be completed within 6 months of starting training for that = rank."</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>PS Section 6 would benefit from a re-write, = especially as it relates to Names. I'll try to get something together = for the next rulebook.</FONT></P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq] Training clarification
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 16:52:31 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" [This came through with blank text, so trying again] Just to record (and get into the formal rules) what most people are playing, we may as well vote on: To be added as a point under 6 Ranking EP is spent as per below but note the following. "Time spent training for a particular rank of an ability does NOT have to be continuous. However training for a given rank must be completed within 6 months of starting training for that rank." Cheers Errol PS Section 6 would benefit from a re-write, especially as it relates to Names. I'll try to get something together for the next rulebook. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2653.12"> <TITLE>Training clarification</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>[This came through with blank text, so trying again] = </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Just to record (and get into the formal rules) what = most people are playing, we may as well vote on:</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To be added as a point under</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>6 Ranking</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>EP is spent as per below but note the = following.</FONT> </P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>"Time spent training for a particular rank of an = ability does NOT have to be continuous. However training for a given = rank must be completed within 6 months of starting training for that = rank."</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>PS Section 6 would benefit from a re-write, = especially as it relates to Names. I'll try to get something together = for the next rulebook.</FONT></P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5AD1E.A16BD530-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Training clarification
From	Michael Woodhams
Date	Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:32:35 +1200
On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 16:52, Errol Cavit wrote: > "Time spent training for a particular rank of an ability does NOT have > to be continuous. However training for a given rank must be completed > within 6 months of starting training for that rank." > "contiguous" rather than "continuous" is more precise. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --