Michael Scott wrote:

> Hey there just a couple of questions about unarmed and a few ideas to 
> make you think.
>
> Q1: How do you play unarmed in regards to the plenalties for multiple 
> strikes, secondary strikes, is it the same as for weapons? Or do you 
> asume they are trained to use both hands amberdextriously in unarmed 
> combat?
>
As a GM and Player I play that unarmed uses the rules as per 3.14

> Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?


Still counts as an extra attack

>
> Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick? 
> Punch, kick and headbutt?


Max of 1 up to rk 3, then a kick may be used as a second attack

>
> Q4: If you are doing something like a spinning backfist can you 
> multi-hex strike?


There are currently no rules that allow this.

>
> Q5: Is it possible to use weapon spells in unarmed?


No.  Unarmed does not count as a wepaon for the purposes of weapon spells.

>
> Q6: If you lose you Primary arm, have ranks in unarmed and an invested 
> Rk 11 Weapon o Flames can you trigger the invested to create an arm 
> for you to use in combat? (Of course the limb would be unalbe to 
> support weight or grip anything that would just be silly)


Yes, but the "arm" would be treated as a crude club as the weapon spells 
create weapons that are wielded, not body parts.

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
>
> Some things to think on;
>
> When evading with unarmed (possibly with just a free hand), rather 
> than disarm - reposte, you have the option to disarm and make a MD 
> cheak to obtain your opponates weapon which you may use against him 
> next pluse assuming you can. NB These manouvers are easiest against 
> hafted weapons. So maybe some sort of bonus say twice MD rather than 
> once vs polearms.
>

Interesting - may be worth testing.

> PC with high ranks (5+) in unarmed gains def bonus vs A class melee 
> weapons when unarmed or they have a free hand. i e A rapier duellist 
> with unarmed adds their Fending def of 1% per rank of unarmed to their 
> total def when their offhand is empty.
>
> This bonus vs A class melee weapons could then stack with the bonus a 
> player gets while evading while unarmed.
>
No Thanks - defence is alreday ridiculously easy to get high.

> Just a cuople of thoughts to maybe add some spice to unarmed combat.
> TTFN
> Michael Scott
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Discover fun and games at  @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids
>
>
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>
>
Scott Whitaker


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-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Michael Scott
Sent: Wednesday, 5 October 2005 8:57 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Unarmed Combat


Hey there just a couple of questions about unarmed and a few ideas to make
you think.

Q1: How do you play unarmed in regards to the plenalties for multiple
strikes, secondary strikes, is it the same as for weapons? Or do you asume
they are trained to use both hands amberdextriously in unarmed combat?

One can make multiple unarmed strikes just as one can make multiple strikes
with two weapons by taking the standard -10 penalty for both (and a -20 with
the off hand). A Kick is availiable at R3 unarmed as per the rules.

Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?

A kick does one more point of damage than a fist

Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick? Punch,
kick and headbutt?

3 is the standard max. Punch, punch, kick

Q4: If you are doing something like a spinning backfist can you multi-hex
strike?

Only with a wierd special ability or if you're character's name is Jackie
:.-)

Q5: Is it possible to use weapon spells in unarmed?

Unarmed is listed on the weapons table so presumably you can. Ask your GM
first.

Q6: If you lose you Primary arm, have ranks in unarmed and an invested Rk 11
Weapon o Flames can you trigger the invested to create an arm for you to use
in combat? (Of course the limb would be unalbe to support weight or grip
anything that would just be silly)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------

Some things to think on;

When evading with unarmed (possibly with just a free hand), rather than
disarm - reposte, you have the option to disarm and make a MD cheak to
obtain your opponates weapon which you may use against him next pluse
assuming you can. NB These manouvers are easiest against hafted weapons. So
maybe some sort of bonus say twice MD rather than once vs polearms.

You can do so already. Disarm your opponent and then win initiative and
scoop up the weapon.

PC with high ranks (5+) in unarmed gains def bonus vs A class melee weapons
when unarmed or they have a free hand. i e A rapier duellist with unarmed
adds their Fending def of 1% per rank of unarmed to their total def when
their offhand is empty.

This bonus vs A class melee weapons could then stack with the bonus a player
gets while evading while unarmed.

Just a cuople of thoughts to maybe add some spice to unarmed combat.
TTFN
Michael Scott

_________________________________________________________________
Discover fun and games at  @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/kids


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I'm querying William's call on a couple of Unarmed Combat rules.

If these are William's House Rules, no problem. However, I don't believe
you can use punch, punch, kick.
----------------------------------------------------------

The Combat Rules say:
Figures with Rank 3 or more Unarmed may kick rather than striking with
their hands, enabling them to attack with their hands full. They may
attempt to Trip with their feet; the normal Unarmed Base Chance and
damage apply. They may also use a kick as their secondary weapon for a
Multiple Strike Attack.

My understanding of this:
The Kick is normally used *rather than striking* - replacing the single
punch.
When using a Kick in a Multiple Strike, this is a secondary weapon. The
Multiple Strike refers to 2 weapons/attacks, one primary, one secondary.
Given that Kicking *replaces* one of your punch attacks, this all seems
very simple.

And where does the extra +1 damage for Kicking come from?

I'm not saying these are bad suggestions, just that they aren't standard
interpretations.

Regards

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 8:14 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat



Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?

A kick does one more point of damage than a fist

Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick?
Punch, kick and headbutt?

3 is the standard max. Punch, punch, kick


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I'm mostly sure I'm not confusing DQ with Battletech :.-)
I'ld go with 3 attacks being a house rule, but I was positive the extra one
damage from feet was in there before this edition of the rules. Normally
unarmed is so ineffectual that it really makes no difference. And if someone
is an uber stat god with special abilities (I'm looking at you Hagen) then
writing reams of game leagalese just to limit them having fun is petty to
the point where I haul out the Clue Stick (TM).

This is starting to worry me. I remember lots of rules which seem to be no
longer there (Thrown polearms lodging and taking 5 AG, movement when not in
an opponents MZ, kicking). However since my older rules shredded due to
overuse I can no-longer check up on what was.

William (Who will happily accept call from thought police)

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 8:14 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


I'm querying William's call on a couple of Unarmed Combat rules.

If these are William's House Rules, no problem. However, I don't believe
you can use punch, punch, kick.
----------------------------------------------------------

The Combat Rules say:
Figures with Rank 3 or more Unarmed may kick rather than striking with
their hands, enabling them to attack with their hands full. They may
attempt to Trip with their feet; the normal Unarmed Base Chance and
damage apply. They may also use a kick as their secondary weapon for a
Multiple Strike Attack.

My understanding of this:
The Kick is normally used *rather than striking* - replacing the single
punch.
When using a Kick in a Multiple Strike, this is a secondary weapon. The
Multiple Strike refers to 2 weapons/attacks, one primary, one secondary.
Given that Kicking *replaces* one of your punch attacks, this all seems
very simple.

And where does the extra +1 damage for Kicking come from?

I'm not saying these are bad suggestions, just that they aren't standard
interpretations.

Regards

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 8:14 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat



Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?

A kick does one more point of damage than a fist

Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick?
Punch, kick and headbutt?

3 is the standard max. Punch, punch, kick


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To avert concern about Wililam's mental health, I'd like to assure our
gentle lurkers that 5 AG is still removed from a victim if an A-class
polearm has lodged itself in them. I assume if someone else has lodged
the polearm in them, the same penalty applies. If you are not in an
opponent's MZ, you can be unengaged, and thus may move as you please.
It's just William's ability to put the boot in for extra damage that got
me firmly under the ribs.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 9:06 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


I'm mostly sure I'm not confusing DQ with Battletech :.-)
I'ld go with 3 attacks being a house rule, but I was positive the extra
one damage from feet was in there before this edition of the rules.
Normally unarmed is so ineffectual that it really makes no difference.
And if someone is an uber stat god with special abilities (I'm looking
at you Hagen) then writing reams of game leagalese just to limit them
having fun is petty to the point where I haul out the Clue Stick (TM).

This is starting to worry me. I remember lots of rules which seem to be
no longer there (Thrown polearms lodging and taking 5 AG, movement when
not in an opponents MZ, kicking). However since my older rules shredded
due to overuse I can no-longer check up on what was.

William (Who will happily accept call from thought police)

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 8:14 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


I'm querying William's call on a couple of Unarmed Combat rules.

If these are William's House Rules, no problem. However, I don't believe
you can use punch, punch, kick.
----------------------------------------------------------

The Combat Rules say:
Figures with Rank 3 or more Unarmed may kick rather than striking with
their hands, enabling them to attack with their hands full. They may
attempt to Trip with their feet; the normal Unarmed Base Chance and
damage apply. They may also use a kick as their secondary weapon for a
Multiple Strike Attack.

My understanding of this:
The Kick is normally used *rather than striking* - replacing the single
punch. When using a Kick in a Multiple Strike, this is a secondary
weapon. The Multiple Strike refers to 2 weapons/attacks, one primary,
one secondary. Given that Kicking *replaces* one of your punch attacks,
this all seems very simple.

And where does the extra +1 damage for Kicking come from?

I'm not saying these are bad suggestions, just that they aren't standard
interpretations.

Regards

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 8:14 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat



Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?

A kick does one more point of damage than a fist

Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick?
Punch, kick and headbutt?

3 is the standard max. Punch, punch, kick


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 09:13
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat
> 
> 
> To avert concern about Wililam's mental health, I'd like to assure our
> gentle lurkers that 5 AG is still removed from a victim if an A-class
> polearm has lodged itself in them. I assume if someone else has lodged
> the polearm in them, the same penalty applies. If you are not in an
> opponent's MZ, you can be unengaged, and thus may move as you please.


I assumed he was referring to the "2xTMR but no defence" option for
"running" which is a common house rule AFAICT.



> It's just William's ability to put the boot in for extra 
> damage that got
> me firmly under the ribs.
> 


Very impressive to kick you in the ribs while punching you as well! :-)


> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On 
> Behalf Of
> William Dymock
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 9:06 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat
> 
> 
> I'm mostly sure I'm not confusing DQ with Battletech :.-)
> I'ld go with 3 attacks being a house rule, but I was positive 
> the extra
> one damage from feet was in there before this edition of the rules.


I don't know what it was before the 2001 rules, but it didn't change in
2004.

The change history has:

September 3, 2001 ... Fix wording in Unarmed combat for kick
so that the wording is now Rank 3 or above.



> Normally unarmed is so ineffectual that it really makes no difference.
> And if someone is an uber stat god with special abilities (I'm looking
> at you Hagen) then writing reams of game leagalese just to limit them
> having fun is petty to the point where I haul out the Clue Stick (TM).
> 
> This is starting to worry me. I remember lots of rules which 
> seem to be
> no longer there (Thrown polearms lodging and taking 5 AG, 
> movement when
> not in an opponents MZ, kicking). However since my older 
> rules shredded
> due to overuse I can no-longer check up on what was.
> 

In a similar I thought we had put in statements about some of the defence
spells (other than SF) being moderately obvious, but this doesn't seem to be
the case.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Unarmed Combat</TITLE>
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>]<=
/FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 09:13</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To avert concern about Wililam's mental health, =
I'd like to assure our</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; gentle lurkers that 5 AG is still removed from =
a victim if an A-class</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; polearm has lodged itself in them. I assume if =
someone else has lodged</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the polearm in them, the same penalty applies. =
If you are not in an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; opponent's MZ, you can be unengaged, and thus =
may move as you please.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I assumed he was referring to the &quot;2xTMR but no =
defence&quot; option for &quot;running&quot; which is a common house =
rule AFAICT.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It's just William's ability to put the boot in =
for extra </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; damage that got</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; me firmly under the ribs.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Very impressive to kick you in the ribs while =
punching you as well! :-)</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Andrew</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] =
On </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; William Dymock</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 9:06 a.m.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'm mostly sure I'm not confusing DQ with =
Battletech :.-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'ld go with 3 attacks being a house rule, but =
I was positive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the extra</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; one damage from feet was in there before this =
edition of the rules.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't know what it was before the 2001 rules, but =
it didn't change in 2004.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The change history has:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>September 3, 2001 ... Fix wording in Unarmed combat =
for kick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>so that the wording is now Rank 3 or above.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Normally unarmed is so ineffectual that it =
really makes no difference.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And if someone is an uber stat god with special =
abilities (I'm looking</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; at you Hagen) then writing reams of game =
leagalese just to limit them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; having fun is petty to the point where I haul =
out the Clue Stick (TM).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This is starting to worry me. I remember lots =
of rules which </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; seem to be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; no longer there (Thrown polearms lodging and =
taking 5 AG, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; movement when</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not in an opponents MZ, kicking). However since =
my older </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rules shredded</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; due to overuse I can no-longer check up on what =
was.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In a similar I thought we had put in statements about =
some of the defence spells (other than SF) being moderately obvious, =
but this doesn't seem to be the case.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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> William Dymock said:
> ... where I haul out the Clue Stick (TM).

LoL


Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
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Michael Scott said:
> Q1: How do you play unarmed in regards to the plenalties for multiple  strikes, secondary
> strikes, is it the same as for weapons? Or do you asume  they are trained to use both hands
> amberdextriously in unarmed combat?

Agree with others, standard rules apply.  One attack at normal bc.  Or a Special Attack at -10/-30
(-10/-10 for ambi's).


> Q2: What if you are using a kick or a headbutt?

As the others said, you can kick instead at Rk 3.
I don't have rules in front of me but I have a strong memory of Kick being [D-2] instead of [D-4]
for unarmed.  But it could just have been something the pretty mushrooms told me.
Headbutt is one of the combination of attacks in close that combine to make up the unarmed damage
you do there.

> Q3: How many attacks can you make while unarmed? Punch, punch, kick? Punch,  kick and headbutt?

One or Two as per Q1.  Unless you are a high rank guild beast with a write-up to prove it.


> Q4: If you are doing something like a spinning backfist can you multi-hex  strike?

No.  Unless you are a high rank guild beast with stupid amounts of strength, skill and a write-up
from your pet GM.

> Q5: Is it possible to use weapon spells in unarmed?

No.  It's a downside of unarmed.  No magic and no silver.  A few guild beast have write-ups making
them magic or silver or able to receive weapon spells - it's a highly prized adventure award for
many guild beasts.


> Q6: If you lose you Primary arm, have ranks in unarmed and an invested Rk 11  Weapon o Flames
> can you trigger the invested to create an arm for you to use  in combat? (Of course the limb
> would be unalbe to support weight or grip  anything that would just be silly)

No, as above no weapon spells on unarmed.  William, can I borrow the stick please?

> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some things to think on;
>
> When evading with unarmed (possibly with just a free hand), rather than  disarm - reposte, you
> have the option to disarm and make a MD cheak to  obtain your opponates weapon which you may use
> against him next pluse  assuming you can. NB These manouvers are easiest against hafted weapons.
> So  maybe some sort of bonus say twice MD rather than once vs polearms.

Agree completely with whoever said this first - Disarm them then pick up their weapon.  Or use 26
agility extra action to catch their weapon - I'd allow that.


> PC with high ranks (5+) in unarmed gains def bonus vs A class melee weapons  when unarmed or
> they have a free hand. i e A rapier duellist with unarmed  adds their Fending def of 1% per rank
> of unarmed to their total def when  their offhand is empty.
>
> This bonus vs A class melee weapons could then stack with the bonus a player  gets while evading
> while unarmed.

No.
Agree with Scott(?), there are enough sources of Defence.
Unarmed is the best to evade with anyway because it goes to Rank 10.  It just means you do less
damage on the ripostes than if you were evading with your sword.  A nice intrinsic balance.
A def bonus against A-class only is a major pain that will slow down combats even further - more
variables to be factored into numbers and reworked mid-combat.


> Just a cuople of thoughts to maybe add some spice to unarmed combat. TTFN
> Michael Scott

There used to be an Advanced Unarmed combat document that was in play for a while to make unarmed
more interesting/realistic.  It was dropped because it was too complicated for a relatively small
part of the game (and unbalanced).  And many of us objected to the 300lb plated knight being
thrown around and taken apart by the wimp in black pyjamas.  Love to watch it in a Jacki Chan
movie, but not in DQ.

Cheers, Stephen.


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On 10/5/05, Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Q4: If you are doing something like a spinning backfist can you multi-hex
> strike?


Common or garden variety DQ unarmed seems to be more akin to boxing and
brawling, with Close Combat being wrestling, (all of which is inline with
the pseudo-European-ish nature of the base setting) rather than portraying
karate, jujitsu, jeet kun do, drunken monkey kung fu, or some other
underhanded eastern art practised by inscrutable types in their pjs.

This is not to say that weird fighting styles are completely unavailable,
I've used a number of them in Kinlu; and made them available to a couple of
PCs -- but as other GMs have replied these are only really available as
treasure writeups. (And even in Kinlu, with its odd and dangerous martial
arts, one generally only fights unarmed against an armed foe when one has n=
o
choice!)

When evading with unarmed (possibly with just a free hand), rather than
> disarm - reposte, you have the option to disarm and make a MD cheak to
> obtain your opponates weapon...


I'd consider this a special manoeuvre that could be learnt (extra time and
EP) in some Kinlu fighting styles, but not generally available.

PC with high ranks (5+) in unarmed gains def bonus...


Ditto.

Just a cuople of thoughts to maybe add some spice to unarmed combat.


With the removal of the Advanced Unarmed rules (that Stephen mentioned),
fighting without weapons was largely "nerfed" in DQ -- apart from the
complexity it was felt that while it was OK for a few strange PCs to have
odd abilities in this area, unarmed was not the focus of DQ combat and
should remain substantially inferior to armed combat.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 10/5/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Michael Scott</b> &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<br>Q4: If you are doing something like a spinning backfist can you multi-h=
ex<br>strike?</blockquote><div><br>
Common or garden variety DQ unarmed seems to be more akin to boxing and
brawling, with Close Combat being wrestling, (all of which is inline
with the pseudo-European-ish nature of the base setting) rather than
portraying karate, jujitsu, jeet kun do, drunken monkey kung fu, or
some other underhanded eastern art practised by inscrutable types in
their pjs.<br>
<br>
This is not to say that weird fighting styles are completely
unavailable, I've used a number of them in Kinlu; and made them
available to a couple of PCs -- but as other GMs have replied these are
only really available as treasure writeups.&nbsp; (And even in Kinlu,
with its odd and dangerous martial arts, one generally
only fights unarmed against an armed foe when one has no choice!)</div><br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">When evading with=
 unarmed (possibly with just a free hand), rather than
<br>disarm - reposte, you have the option to disarm and make a MD cheak to<=
br>obtain your opponates weapon...</blockquote><div><br>
I'd consider this a special manoeuvre that could be learnt (extra time
and EP) in some Kinlu fighting styles, but not generally available. <br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">PC with hig=
h ranks (5+) in unarmed gains def bonus...</blockquote><div><br>
Ditto.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Just a =
cuople of thoughts to maybe add some spice to unarmed combat.</blockquote>
<div><br>
With the removal of the Advanced Unarmed rules (that Stephen
mentioned), fighting without weapons was largely &quot;nerfed&quot; in DQ -=
-
apart from the complexity it was felt that while it was OK for a few
strange PCs to have odd abilities in this area, unarmed was not the
focus of DQ combat and should remain substantially inferior to armed
combat.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div><br>

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Mike

The rules allow Std penalities for more than one hand being used, the weapon
spells apply to weapons.
Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class weapons.

The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to keep combat as simple and as
quick as possible, and even so we end up with exceptions to the rule. Either
rules in the book like the dagger rules, or because the character has some
GM given abilities.

I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, 23 years of the guilds
exsistance, any number of  unarmed variations and house rules have been
tried.

The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot be done by any spell, skill,
talent or ablity is the imagionation of the player and the licence of the
GM.

If you can convince me that because you have the AG the dagger rule on
several attacks should apply to your unarmed  in close with out ingaging in
15 minutes of argugement, fine make the suggestion
But be prepared to except it if I say No, or for me to change my mind next
Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or without explanation.
And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs can too.
Some of these rules are there to save the PCs skins.

Helen


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I'm not sure that Unarmed deserves a "nerfed" title.  It still has its place and you'll find that
most serious fighters have high ranks in it.
- You always have a prepared weapon which helps with IV when caught by suprise, you can attack or
(more likely) evade without preparing a weapon if you need to.
- The dominant melee weapons only go to Rk 7, Unarmed goes to Rk 10, a bonus for evading defence
when you really don't want to be hit.
- It potentially has a higher strike chance, useful against the occasional bad guy with very high
defence.  And if you boost your PS it almost compares on damage.
E.g. (a high level fighter & Std Rules) PS 18, MD 20, AG 26, PC 26, Rk 10 Warrior, Rk 20 Greater,
Rk 10 Unarmed vs Rk 7 Hand and a Half:
H&1/2: IV: 69, SC: 139%, Dam: D+8 (+1 for 2 handed).
Unarmed: IV: 72, SC: 156%, Dam: D+1.
Add 23 for an average-roll Rk 20 Waters of Str and Unarmed becomes: SC: 179% Dam: D+8.

The only advantage the sword has is weapon smithing and weapon spells to bring the SC closer and
deal some serious damage.


Martin Dickson said:
> With the removal of the Advanced Unarmed rules (that Stephen mentioned), fighting without
> weapons was largely "nerfed" in DQ -- apart from the complexity it was felt that while it was OK
> for a few strange PCs to have odd abilities in this area, unarmed was not the focus of DQ combat
> and should remain substantially inferior to armed combat.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin


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If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad
Sabrina's back. We were seriously short of fighters until she returned.

Apart from that, Stephen's right - BC for Unarmed boosts easily, but a
weapon spell or magic sword beats unarmed completely. In Close is
another place where unarmed is useful - you just don't have time to
reach for a close-rated weapon. Unarmed is also for clearing riff-raff
while fighting with your glaive, or for an off-hand attack while using a
shield. Also, if you don't want to be seen to be trying to kill someone.
Or for tripping. Or for keeping people out of close. Unarmed is the most
versatile combat skill. Its only weaknesses are no multi-hex and that
its not ranged.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 1:47 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


I'm not sure that Unarmed deserves a "nerfed" title.  It still has its
place and you'll find that most serious fighters have high ranks in it.
- You always have a prepared weapon which helps with IV when caught by
suprise, you can attack or (more likely) evade without preparing a
weapon if you need to.
- The dominant melee weapons only go to Rk 7, Unarmed goes to Rk 10, a
bonus for evading defence when you really don't want to be hit.
- It potentially has a higher strike chance, useful against the
occasional bad guy with very high defence.  And if you boost your PS it
almost compares on damage. E.g. (a high level fighter & Std Rules) PS
18, MD 20, AG 26, PC 26, Rk 10 Warrior, Rk 20 Greater, Rk 10 Unarmed vs
Rk 7 Hand and a Half:
H&1/2: IV: 69, SC: 139%, Dam: D+8 (+1 for 2 handed).
Unarmed: IV: 72, SC: 156%, Dam: D+1.
Add 23 for an average-roll Rk 20 Waters of Str and Unarmed becomes: SC:
179% Dam: D+8.

The only advantage the sword has is weapon smithing and weapon spells to
bring the SC closer and deal some serious damage.


Martin Dickson said:
> With the removal of the Advanced Unarmed rules (that Stephen 
> mentioned), fighting without weapons was largely "nerfed" in DQ -- 
> apart from the complexity it was felt that while it was OK for a few 
> strange PCs to have odd abilities in this area, unarmed was not the 
> focus of DQ combat and should remain substantially inferior to armed 
> combat.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Helen Saggers [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 13:09
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> The rules allow Std penalities for more than one hand being 
> used, the weapon
> spells apply to weapons.
> Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class weapons.
> 
> The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to keep combat as 
> simple and as
> quick as possible, and even so we end up with exceptions to 
> the rule. Either
> rules in the book like the dagger rules, or because the 
> character has some
> GM given abilities.
> 
> I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, 23 years of the guilds
> exsistance, any number of  unarmed variations and house rules 
> have been
> tried.
> 
> The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot be done by any 
> spell, skill,
> talent or ablity is the imagionation of the player and the 
> licence of the
> GM.
> 
> If you can convince me that because you have the AG the dagger rule on
> several attacks should apply to your unarmed  in close with 
> out ingaging in
> 15 minutes of argugement, fine make the suggestion
> But be prepared to except it if I say No, or for me to change 
> my mind next
> Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or without explanation.

This is all OK, however if you change your mind between combats, it is
reasonable to expect that you tell the players before they e.g. charge into
close expecting to be able to make multiple attacks.


> And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs can too.
> Some of these rules are there to save the PCs skins.
> 

Yes indeedy.

Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Helen Saggers [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 13:09</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mike</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The rules allow Std penalities for more than =
one hand being </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; used, the weapon</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spells apply to weapons.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class =
weapons.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to =
keep combat as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; simple and as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; quick as possible, and even so we end up with =
exceptions to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the rule. Either</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rules in the book like the dagger rules, or =
because the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; character has some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM given abilities.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, =
23 years of the guilds</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; exsistance, any number of&nbsp; unarmed =
variations and house rules </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; have been</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; tried.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot =
be done by any </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spell, skill,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; talent or ablity is the imagionation of the =
player and the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; licence of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If you can convince me that because you have =
the AG the dagger rule on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; several attacks should apply to your =
unarmed&nbsp; in close with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; out ingaging in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 15 minutes of argugement, fine make the =
suggestion</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; But be prepared to except it if I say No, or =
for me to change </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; my mind next</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or =
without explanation.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This is all OK, however if you change your mind =
between combats, it is reasonable to expect that you tell the players =
before they e.g. charge into close expecting to be able to make =
multiple attacks.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs =
can too.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Some of these rules are there to save the PCs =
skins.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes indeedy.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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So just to clarify cause I've always wondered.

In the standard guild style of hand and a half plus Main Gauch - 
1:	Does the PC get the extra Kick when attacking once with each weapon?

2:	Does the PC get the extra kick when attacking with the Hand 1/2 and
defending with the Main Gauch?

3:	Does the PC get the extra kick when they have been disarmed of their
Main Gauch and are thus fighting with their hand 1/2 two handed?

And 4: (I think it's the same as 1) - what about swing (one handed sword)
punch Kick?

Hamish
 



Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:09 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat

Mike

The rules allow Std penalities for more than one hand being used, the weapon
spells apply to weapons.
Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class weapons.

The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to keep combat as simple and as
quick as possible, and even so we end up with exceptions to the rule. Either
rules in the book like the dagger rules, or because the character has some
GM given abilities.

I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, 23 years of the guilds
exsistance, any number of  unarmed variations and house rules have been
tried.

The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot be done by any spell, skill,
talent or ablity is the imagionation of the player and the licence of the
GM.

If you can convince me that because you have the AG the dagger rule on
several attacks should apply to your unarmed  in close with out ingaging in
15 minutes of argugement, fine make the suggestion
But be prepared to except it if I say No, or for me to change my mind next
Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or without explanation.
And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs can too.
Some of these rules are there to save the PCs skins.

Helen


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared you can use your Rk 10 
unarmed for IV and always keep people out of close, (assuming they don't 
want to risk the potential spec)?

TTFN
Michael Scott

_________________________________________________________________
Become a fitness fanatic @  http://xtramsn.co.nz/health


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> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) said:
> If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad
> Sabrina's back. We were seriously short of fighters until she returned.

We are short of fighters as its not interesting being a blocker for the
blast mages. Most long term fighters become Namers.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66


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On 06/10/2005, at 14:05, Johanna and Hamish wrote:

> So just to clarify cause I've always wondered.

I think the problem in your understanding is - there is no "extra" 
kick. At rank 3 you may kick instead of a punch.

> In the standard guild style of hand and a half plus Main Gauch -
> 1:	Does the PC get the extra Kick when attacking once with each weapon?

no

> 2:	Does the PC get the extra kick when attacking with the Hand 1/2 and
> defending with the Main Gauch?

no

> 3:	Does the PC get the extra kick when they have been disarmed of their
> Main Gauch and are thus fighting with their hand 1/2 two handed?

no

> And 4: (I think it's the same as 1) - what about swing (one handed 
> sword)
> punch Kick?

And again no. You can swing and *either* punch or kick in this 
situation,

cheers,

clare


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Johanna and Hamish said:
> So just to clarify cause I've always wondered.
>
> In the standard guild style of hand and a half plus Main Gauche -
> 1:	Does the PC get the extra Kick when attacking once with each weapon?

No.  Attack with Sword only, or special double attack (-10/-30) with Sword and MG OR Sword and Foot.

> 2:	Does the PC get the extra kick when attacking with the Hand 1/2 and defending with the Main
> Gauche?

Yes, assuming they want to do a Special Attack: Two Weapon Strike at -10/-30.

> 3:	Does the PC get the extra kick when they have been disarmed of their Main Gauch and are thus
> fighting with their hand 1/2 two handed?

Same as for 2.

>
> And 4: (I think it's the same as 1) - what about swing (one handed sword) punch Kick?

Punch OR Kick.

> Hamish


All that said, some GMs do play the Kick as an extra "free" attack.  Whether it's their
interpretaion of the rules or their house rule is up for debate.
And to add to rules confusion some characters have write-ups giving them a free Kick.

Cheers, Stephen.


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It's not an _extra_ kick. It can be the second attack as part of a Multiple
Strike Special Attack.

3.14 ...Figures with Rank 3 or more Unarmed may kick
rather than striking with their hands, enabling them to
attack with their hands full. They may attempt to Trip
with their feet; the normal Unarmed Base Chance and
damage apply.
*** They may also use a kick as their secondary
weapon for a Multiple Strike Attack. ***

1: no, primary H 1/2, secondary MG
2: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick
3: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick
4: no, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick OR punch (note multi-hex strike
with H 1/2 NOT allowed while also kicking, as multi-hex strike is a
different Special Attack.)

Note that you can't move while doing a Multiple Strike Special Attack, so
there is some cost to trying to get the boot in...

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johanna and Hamish [mailto:perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:05
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat
> 
> 
> So just to clarify cause I've always wondered.
> 
> In the standard guild style of hand and a half plus Main Gauch - 
> 1:	Does the PC get the extra Kick when attacking once with 
> each weapon?
> 
> 2:	Does the PC get the extra kick when attacking with the 
> Hand 1/2 and
> defending with the Main Gauch?
> 
> 3:	Does the PC get the extra kick when they have been 
> disarmed of their
> Main Gauch and are thus fighting with their hand 1/2 two handed?
> 
> And 4: (I think it's the same as 1) - what about swing (one 
> handed sword)
> punch Kick?
> 
> Hamish
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Hamish Brown
> Director
> 
> Zenergy
> Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
> 119 Mt Eden Rd,
> Auckland
> www.zenergyglobal.com 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On 
> Behalf Of
> Helen Saggers
> Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:09 PM
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat
> 
> Mike
> 
> The rules allow Std penalities for more than one hand being 
> used, the weapon
> spells apply to weapons.
> Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class weapons.
> 
> The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to keep combat as 
> simple and as
> quick as possible, and even so we end up with exceptions to 
> the rule. Either
> rules in the book like the dagger rules, or because the 
> character has some
> GM given abilities.
> 
> I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, 23 years of the guilds
> exsistance, any number of  unarmed variations and house rules 
> have been
> tried.
> 
> The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot be done by any 
> spell, skill,
> talent or ablity is the imagionation of the player and the 
> licence of the
> GM.
> 
> If you can convince me that because you have the AG the dagger rule on
> several attacks should apply to your unarmed  in close with 
> out ingaging in
> 15 minutes of argugement, fine make the suggestion
> But be prepared to except it if I say No, or for me to change 
> my mind next
> Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or without explanation.
> And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs can too.
> Some of these rules are there to save the PCs skins.
> 
> Helen
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's not an _extra_ kick. It can be the second attack =
as part of a Multiple Strike Special Attack.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>3.14 ...Figures with Rank 3 or more Unarmed may =
kick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>rather than striking with their hands, enabling them =
to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>attack with their hands full. They may attempt to =
Trip</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>with their feet; the normal Unarmed Base Chance =
and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>damage apply.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>*** They may also use a kick as their =
secondary</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>weapon for a Multiple Strike Attack. ***</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1: no, primary H 1/2, secondary MG</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4: no, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick OR =
punch (note multi-hex strike with H 1/2 NOT allowed while also kicking, =
as multi-hex strike is a different Special Attack.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that you can't move while doing a Multiple =
Strike Special Attack, so there is some cost to trying to get the boot =
in...</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Johanna and Hamish [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz">mailto:perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:05</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; So just to clarify cause I've always =
wondered.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In the standard guild style of hand and a half =
plus Main Gauch - </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 1:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does the PC get the extra =
Kick when attacking once with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; each weapon?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does the PC get the extra =
kick when attacking with the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hand 1/2 and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; defending with the Main Gauch?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 3:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Does the PC get the extra =
kick when they have been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; disarmed of their</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Main Gauch and are thus fighting with their =
hand 1/2 two handed?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And 4: (I think it's the same as 1) - what =
about swing (one </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; handed sword)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; punch Kick?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hamish</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hamish Brown</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Director</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Zenergy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable =
world</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 119 Mt Eden Rd,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Auckland</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; www.zenergyglobal.com </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] =
On </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen Saggers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 1:09 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mike</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The rules allow Std penalities for more than =
one hand being </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; used, the weapon</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spells apply to weapons.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Multi hex strikes are for two handed B class =
weapons.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The Rules are there to be provide a Std, to =
keep combat as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; simple and as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; quick as possible, and even so we end up with =
exceptions to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the rule. Either</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rules in the book like the dagger rules, or =
because the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; character has some</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM given abilities.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'm fairly sure that in the what, the last 22, =
23 years of the guilds</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; exsistance, any number of&nbsp; unarmed =
variations and house rules </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; have been</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; tried.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The ultamate determinate of what can or cannot =
be done by any </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spell, skill,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; talent or ablity is the imagionation of the =
player and the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; licence of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; GM.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If you can convince me that because you have =
the AG the dagger rule on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; several attacks should apply to your =
unarmed&nbsp; in close with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; out ingaging in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 15 minutes of argugement, fine make the =
suggestion</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; But be prepared to except it if I say No, or =
for me to change </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; my mind next</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Adventure, next Week next Combat, with or =
without explanation.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And always rember that if the PCs can the NPCs =
can too.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Some of these rules are there to save the PCs =
skins.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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On 06/10/2005, at 14:29, Errol Cavit wrote:

> 1: no, primary H 1/2, secondary MG
> 2: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick
> 3: yes, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick
> 4: no, primary H 1/2, secondary unarmed kick OR punch (note multi-hex 
> strike with H 1/2 NOT allowed while also kicking, as multi-hex strike 
> is a different Special Attack.)

OK I'll concede points 2 and 3,

cheers,

clare


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Technically yes.  But I'd reach for William's clue stick to beat the rules lawyer with.

Your engaged IV should be based on your primary weapon (ie. the one you are making your primary
attack with).
I would also rule that you keep them out of close with your primary weapon unless you are
deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.

Cheers, Stephen.

Michael Scott said:
> So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared you can use your Rk 10  unarmed for IV and
> always keep people out of close, (assuming they don't  want to risk the potential spec)?
>
> TTFN
> Michael Scott


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> We are short of fighters as its not interesting being a 
> blocker for the blast mages.
But it IS interesting -- or at least that's what everybody tells me [says Hagen], but not as interesting as grooming the horses [who haven't signed the guild contract & therefore have no qualms about being bossy or manipulative]

Here are two other points in favour of ranking unarmed:

 unarmed is handy for mages (esp if you're a fighter semi-retiring as a Namer): If pounced on whilst preparing/casting, you can always abandon that spell preparation to punch your interruptor in the face.

Likewise, if you are forced into melee whilst using a bow or crossbow, you don't have to drop your weapon to thump the interloper -- you may kick instead (since your hands are full).

By the way,  I note a discrepancy in the way some players are rolling damage
Unarmed (similarly shield bash, etc) is often played as if
[D-4] +2 is being played as [D-2],
[D-4] +3 is being played as [D-1], etc
 ... contrary to the way, for example, that spell damage is generated.

Sections 3.11 (1st para); 3.11, subhead "Additional Damage" (1st para); 3.14 (2nd para); and 61.1 (para R)  are imprecise, somewhat contradictory -- as to whether the Modifier itself is changed, or whatever.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I would also rule that you keep them out of close with your primary weapon
unless you are
deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.

Makes me imagine a big guy with a long arm hold a little guy off via his
forehead - while striking him with sword... :)  


Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 2:37 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat

Technically yes.  But I'd reach for William's clue stick to beat the rules
lawyer with.

Your engaged IV should be based on your primary weapon (ie. the one you are
making your primary
attack with).
I would also rule that you keep them out of close with your primary weapon
unless you are
deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.

Cheers, Stephen.

Michael Scott said:
> So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared you can use your Rk 10
unarmed for IV and
> always keep people out of close, (assuming they don't  want to risk the
potential spec)?
>
> TTFN
> Michael Scott


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I have a feeling Michael is trying to ask a seperate
question here in that can someone used Unarmed to keep
people out of close even if they have both hands
full/gone/etc for example Goon using a Longbow wants
to keep PC out of close and trys for a quick kick to
the err unmentionables to stop them i.e using an
unarmed kick to keep them out even thou both hands are
busy using the bow.

Zane 

--- Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
wrote:

> Technically yes.  But I'd reach for William's clue
> stick to beat the rules lawyer with.
> 
> Your engaged IV should be based on your primary
> weapon (ie. the one you are making your primary
> attack with).
> I would also rule that you keep them out of close
> with your primary weapon unless you are
> deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Michael Scott said:
> > So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared
> you can use your Rk 10  unarmed for IV and
> > always keep people out of close, (assuming they
> don't  want to risk the potential spec)?
> >
> > TTFN
> > Michael Scott
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify
> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 



	
		
______________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! for Good 
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I'd give you this one.  Putting the boot in because you're busy with your bow is fine.

Putting the boot in because it gives you a better chance of keeping them out than your Hand&1/2 &
Shield is too min-max rules-lawyering for my taste.
But if you choose to disadvantage yourself by not using a shield in order to be able to use
unarmed to keep the goons at bay, that's fine.  A tactical choice at a cost to yourself.

Of course there are exceptions, I would let a mounted figure with Sword and Shield kick the
infantryman to keep him from getting in close because it seems appropriate.

Cheers, Stephen.

Zane Mendoza said:
> I have a feeling Michael is trying to ask a seperate
> question here in that can someone used Unarmed to keep
> people out of close even if they have both hands
> full/gone/etc for example Goon using a Longbow wants
> to keep PC out of close and trys for a quick kick to
> the err unmentionables to stop them i.e using an
> unarmed kick to keep them out even thou both hands are
> busy using the bow.
>
> Zane
>
> --- Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Technically yes.  But I'd reach for William's clue
>> stick to beat the rules lawyer with.
>>
>> Your engaged IV should be based on your primary
>> weapon (ie. the one you are making your primary
>> attack with).
>> I would also rule that you keep them out of close
>> with your primary weapon unless you are
>> deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.
>>
>> Cheers, Stephen.
>>
>> Michael Scott said:
>> > So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared
>> you can use your Rk 10  unarmed for IV and
>> > always keep people out of close, (assuming they
>> don't  want to risk the potential spec)?
>> >
>> > TTFN
>> > Michael Scott
>>
>>
>> -- to unsubscribe notify
>> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Yahoo! for Good
> Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

With only 25 AG and PC and Warrior currently stalled due to ranking
requirements, I guess Thorn doesn't count as a Serious Fighter then. :-)

The main reason non mage fighters end up becoming Namers is a cultural
thing.
If your not a mage your a second class adventurer.
Wither you stay in the front line or not in order to be considered good for
something other than just combat there is this attitude that you have to be
a mage.
That with out a collage your a cripple and the party is carrying you two
thirds of the time.
 Its not that being a blocker for the blast mages isn't interesting its that
the attitude you get from the rest of the party takes a thick skin to ignore
and over come, becoming a Namer even a bad one with negatives for low MA
seems in some way to magical fix this.

 I don't know why this attitude is there or what has caused it other than
the number of suits of mage plate about. As a nonmage can contribute as much
as any Mage in terms of ideas and rollplaying, some times even more with
skills as they have fewer ep expenditures.

 Helen


  ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: "Jonathan Bean"
  Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) said:
> If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad
> Sabrina's back. We were seriously short of fighters until she returned.
>
> We are short of fighters as its not interesting being a blocker for the
> blast mages. Most long term fighters become Namers.
>
> Jonathan Bean

> >
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

3.11 says you make a D10 roll, plus all modifiers, with a resulting
minimum of 1.
3.14 says you change the damage modifier (default -4) based on PS. This
then makes it -3, -2, etc.

I think these two make it clear that you calculate your modifier and add
it to D10.

56.1 R (weapons chart notes) is nonsense - the damage modifier is not
[D-4] + N/3 - that is the damage. Either remove the "D" or the
"modifier". If the second case, I would remove the square brackets to
avoid the min one assumption, while others may disagree, but no matter
which you prefer, R is nonsense.

------------------------
3.11 Damage
Each attack has a damage modifier that is applied to a D10 roll, and the
result is the number of damage points inflicted by the attack (minimum
damage 1). 

3.14 Unarmed
The damage modifier is -4 (+ 1 for every 3 full points of Physical
Strength over 15).

56.1 R Weapons - unarmed
The damage modifier is [D - 4] (+ 1 for every 3 full points of PS over
15).

------------------------

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Michael Parkinson
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 2:51 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Unarmed Combat


By the way,  I note a discrepancy in the way some players are rolling
damage
Unarmed (similarly shield bash, etc) is often played as if
[D-4] +2 is being played as [D-2],
[D-4] +3 is being played as [D-1], etc
 ... contrary to the way, for example, that spell damage is generated.

Sections 3.11 (1st para); 3.11, subhead "Additional Damage" (1st para);
3.14 (2nd para); and 61.1 (para R)  are imprecise, somewhat
contradictory -- as to whether the Modifier itself is changed, or
whatever.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

With only 25 AG and PC and Warrior currently stalled due to ranking
requirements, I guess Thorn doesn't count as a Serious Fighter then. :-)

The main reason non mage fighters end up becoming Namers is a cultural
thing.
If your not a mage your a second class adventurer.
Wither you stay in the front line or not in order to be considered good for
something other than just combat there is this attitude that you have to be
a mage.
That with out a collage your a cripple and the party is carrying you two
thirds of the time.
 Its not that being a blocker for the blast mages isn't interesting its that
the attitude you get from the rest of the party takes a thick skin to ignore
and over come, becoming a Namer even a bad one with negatives for low MA
seems in some way to magical fix this.

 I don't know why this attitude is there or what has caused it other than
the number of suits of mage plate about. As a nonmage can contribute as much
as any Mage in terms of ideas and rollplaying, some times even more with
skills as they have fewer ep expenditures.

Helen


Yes I agree, warriors are related to as less intelligent (besides GoK who
earned it) and excluded from the vast influences magic has on the game in
some important ways.

The advantages warriors have do not come close to creating balance unless
you're a giant and then the 30 STR 30 END 9 TMR does create some balance.

I would like to see more forms of magic in the game - and more quasi magical
abilities, such as those mentioned in the email below.

Currently the only way for warriors to compare is to get funky magic stuff
from GM's.  Both my PC are stuck on rk7 warrior because it is not to easy to
get master works unless one pursues them. 

HAMISH 


ON 8/26/05 Ross Alexander Proposed a cool idea for the restructuring of
racial modifiers to enable races to pay off the modifier and then buy some
race specific talents.

I think this is Cool - Also I like the Magic Recipes idea.

The reason is that I like the increased magic flavor this brings to the game
- I really like the idea that the world we are adventuring in is rich with
magic beyond collage based stuff and GM items.

I'm not personally too interested in power gaming - I like the idea that an
elf can develop a range of talents specific to elfs, this make non mage elfs
much more interesting (variations could be developed for all races including
humans).  Similarly Jono's recipe idea adds flavor and depth - some players
will enjoy this magic alternative. 

I don't think this means the world has to become unbalanced OR that PC's
will end up super powerful.  Balance issues can fixed.

The key thing with these two proposals is our alignment upon what type of
world we want to adventure in.  IF we are generally in flavor then we can
get together and decide how to remedy the problems people may find.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: "Jonathan Bean"
  Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) said:
> If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad
> Sabrina's back. We were seriously short of fighters until she returned.
>
> We are short of fighters as its not interesting being a blocker for the
> blast mages. Most long term fighters become Namers.
>
> Jonathan Bean

> >
>


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Correct me if im wrong, but the only "benefit" to being a non-mage is the magic resist bonus? So from a pure "power-gaming" standpoint why wouldnt you pick-up a college?  Personally I'd only make "Warrior" available to non-mages ...

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 3:24 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Serious Fighters


With only 25 AG and PC and Warrior currently stalled due to ranking
requirements, I guess Thorn doesn't count as a Serious Fighter then. :-)

The main reason non mage fighters end up becoming Namers is a cultural
thing.
If your not a mage your a second class adventurer.
Wither you stay in the front line or not in order to be considered good for
something other than just combat there is this attitude that you have to be
a mage.
That with out a collage your a cripple and the party is carrying you two
thirds of the time.
 Its not that being a blocker for the blast mages isn't interesting its that
the attitude you get from the rest of the party takes a thick skin to ignore
and over come, becoming a Namer even a bad one with negatives for low MA
seems in some way to magical fix this.

 I don't know why this attitude is there or what has caused it other than
the number of suits of mage plate about. As a nonmage can contribute as much
as any Mage in terms of ideas and rollplaying, some times even more with
skills as they have fewer ep expenditures.

 Helen


  ----- Original Message ----- 
 From: "Jonathan Bean"
  Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat


> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) said:
> If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad
> Sabrina's back. We were seriously short of fighters until she returned.
>
> We are short of fighters as its not interesting being a blocker for the
> blast mages. Most long term fighters become Namers.
>
> Jonathan Bean

> >
>


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> Michael Scott said:
> > So even if you have a weapon and shild prepared you can use 
> your Rk 10  unarmed for IV and
> > always keep people out of close, (assuming they don't  want 
> to risk the potential spec)?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:37
> 
> Technically yes.  But I'd reach for William's clue stick to 
> beat the rules lawyer with.
> 
> Your engaged IV should be based on your primary weapon (ie. 
> the one you are making your primary
> attack with).
> I would also rule that you keep them out of close with your 
> primary weapon unless you are
> deliberately keeping one hand free for that purpose.
> 

Hmm:
...
they may try to Repulse the Attacker's attempt to
Close by rolling less than or equal to their prepared
Melee weapon Rank on a D10.
...

How about saying that if you are using a weapon not in your primary hand
(i.e. off-hand or legs) to Repulse, then you take 3 off its rank? A light
tap with the loon stick.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Michael Scott said:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; So even if you have a weapon and shild =
prepared you can use </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; your Rk 10&nbsp; unarmed for IV and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; always keep people out of close, (assuming =
they don't&nbsp; want </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to risk the potential spec)?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Stephen Martin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po=
intclark.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 14:37</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Technically yes.&nbsp; But I'd reach for =
William's clue stick to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; beat the rules lawyer with.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Your engaged IV should be based on your primary =
weapon (ie. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the one you are making your primary</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; attack with).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I would also rule that you keep them out of =
close with your </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; primary weapon unless you are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; deliberately keeping one hand free for that =
purpose.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hmm:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>they may try to Repulse the Attacker's attempt =
to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Close by rolling less than or equal to their =
prepared</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Melee weapon Rank on a D10.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>How about saying that if you are using a weapon not =
in your primary hand (i.e. off-hand or legs) to Repulse, then you take =
3 off its rank? A light tap with the loon stick.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5CA1F.2F50F980--


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I guess leaving Sabrina's name out of my extreme example didn't work to preserve her anonymity.  I
guess I should have stuck with the original plan of floating a block of darkness in front of her
face, but then I thought that wouldn't work as we all recognise her by her curves (with or without
clothes)...

But seriously, in comparison to Sabrina most of us (exluding Morgan (not the Orc), but as examples
go, Sabrina is much nicer to look at) are not serious fighters having half her Strike Chances,
Damage, and number of attacks.  But at least we're smarter than our mounts. :-)


> With only 25 AG and PC and Warrior currently stalled due to ranking requirements, I guess Thorn
> doesn't count as a Serious Fighter then. :-)

>> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) said:
>> If serious fighters need AG 26, PC 26, Warrior 10, then I'm glad Sabrina's back. We were
>> seriously short of fighters until she returned.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 3:19 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
> 
> 
> 3.11 says you make a D10 roll, plus all modifiers, with a resulting
> minimum of 1.
> 3.14 says you change the damage modifier (default -4) based 
> on PS. This
> then makes it -3, -2, etc.
> 
> I think these two make it clear that you calculate your 
> modifier and add
> it to D10.

Agreed, since they change the modifier (besides, the maths is easier that way).  However skill ranks are *additional* damage (according to the last 3 paragraphs of 3.11), likewise overstrengthing for ordinary weapons -- thus someone with a whip (which has a max rank of 10, in case you hadn't noticed) could end up with silly damage like  [D-3]+2 or [D-3]+3
 ... Or you could get it weaponsmithed & do [D-1]+2, [D-1]+3 ... 
<!sigh>

> 56.1 R  [...], but no matter which you prefer, R is nonsense.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

3.11 Additional Damage - early drafts talking about modifiers to the
damage modifier got messy, so it was shortened to modifiers to the
damage. If we want to change the wording to make the rule clear, I wish
someone luck. Otherwise, we can just agree that all damage modifiers
modify the damage modifier.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Michael Parkinson
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 4:04 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of

> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 3:19 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
> 
> 
> 3.11 says you make a D10 roll, plus all modifiers, with a resulting 
> minimum of 1. 3.14 says you change the damage modifier (default -4) 
> based on PS. This
> then makes it -3, -2, etc.
> 
> I think these two make it clear that you calculate your
> modifier and add
> it to D10.

Agreed, since they change the modifier (besides, the maths is easier
that way).  However skill ranks are *additional* damage (according to
the last 3 paragraphs of 3.11), likewise overstrengthing for ordinary
weapons -- thus someone with a whip (which has a max rank of 10, in case
you hadn't noticed) could end up with silly damage like  [D-3]+2 or
[D-3]+3  ... Or you could get it weaponsmithed & do [D-1]+2, [D-1]+3 ...

<!sigh>

> 56.1 R  [...], but no matter which you prefer, R is nonsense.


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(Assuming we want this effect) Perhaps a wording change could be applied where it specifies
Minimum 1.  Changing it to say the minimum is 1 after _ALL_ modifiers to the damage have been
applied.
Provided that it is clear that this is before we get to taking armour off.


DSL AK said:
> 3.11 Additional Damage - early drafts talking about modifiers to the damage modifier got messy,
> so it was shortened to modifiers to the damage. If we want to change the wording to make the
> rule clear, I wish someone luck. Otherwise, we can just agree that all damage modifiers modify
> the damage modifier.
>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Michael Parkinson
> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 4:04 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>
>> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
>> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 3:19 p.m.
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
>>
>>
>> 3.11 says you make a D10 roll, plus all modifiers, with a resulting  minimum of 1. 3.14 says
>> you change the damage modifier (default -4)  based on PS. This
>> then makes it -3, -2, etc.
>>
>> I think these two make it clear that you calculate your
>> modifier and add
>> it to D10.
>
> Agreed, since they change the modifier (besides, the maths is easier that way).  However skill
> ranks are *additional* damage (according to the last 3 paragraphs of 3.11), likewise
> overstrengthing for ordinary weapons -- thus someone with a whip (which has a max rank of 10, in
> case you hadn't noticed) could end up with silly damage like  [D-3]+2 or [D-3]+3  ... Or you
> could get it weaponsmithed & do [D-1]+2, [D-1]+3 ...
>
> <!sigh>
>
>> 56.1 R  [...], but no matter which you prefer, R is nonsense.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz>; " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters


>Correct me if im wrong, but the only "benefit" to being a non-mage is the
magic resist bonus? So from a pure >"power-gaming" standpoint why wouldnt
you pick-up a college?  Personally I'd only make "Warrior" >available to
non-mages ...

That and between 6 and 13 Stat points you can put into other things. Bad
namers can do this too, but good ones try to keep there MA up.
Warrior for non mages only goes with the sillyness, that Warriors Shouldn't
have Assassin. (What the hell do you call Special forces then?)
Even if you did limit it to nonmages, whats a few points of Def, Dam, or IV.
compared to Quickness or Shadow form or a weapon spell. useable by the whole
party.

Im not saying that Nonmages are or are not as good as a power up mage, or a
blast mage, each contrubute their in there own way to the balance of the
party in combat.
But the attitude is that even a mage with out any combat spells is better
than a non mage as they can do the fighter thing then non combat magic
stuff.
Where as the Non mage is only good for combat, that outside of a fight they
are deadwood. That the magic is the be all end all and they don't have other
skills they can contribute.

Helen


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Well I guess my point is that while you can start as a non-mage, in order to max out those "other" stats, sooner or later you may as well raise that MA and grab a college, as their is no real detriment (other than time and exp) to doing so, and plenty of benefits to gain.  

Given enough time/exp the Warrior-Mage can be just as good at combat as the non-mage (arguably better with self stat buffs/def buffs/weapon buffs etc. they may gain from their college). And then they get the benefits of a college to boot.

That's the thing about DQ, given the time and exp you can be a Warrior/Mage/Thief/Ranger/Healer/Assassin etc. jack of all trades "instant party in one character". I don't advocate going to D&D "straight jacketed" classes but in many ways DQ is at the entire opposite end of the spectrum. 

Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and studying arcane tomes. 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 5:01 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters



----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz>; " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters


>Correct me if im wrong, but the only "benefit" to being a non-mage is the
magic resist bonus? So from a pure >"power-gaming" standpoint why wouldnt
you pick-up a college?  Personally I'd only make "Warrior" >available to
non-mages ...

That and between 6 and 13 Stat points you can put into other things. Bad
namers can do this too, but good ones try to keep there MA up.
Warrior for non mages only goes with the sillyness, that Warriors Shouldn't
have Assassin. (What the hell do you call Special forces then?)
Even if you did limit it to nonmages, whats a few points of Def, Dam, or IV.
compared to Quickness or Shadow form or a weapon spell. useable by the whole
party.

Im not saying that Nonmages are or are not as good as a power up mage, or a
blast mage, each contrubute their in there own way to the balance of the
party in combat.
But the attitude is that even a mage with out any combat spells is better
than a non mage as they can do the fighter thing then non combat magic
stuff.
Where as the Non mage is only good for combat, that outside of a fight they
are deadwood. That the magic is the be all end all and they don't have other
skills they can contribute.

Helen


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> But seriously, in comparison to Sabrina most of us (exluding Morgan (not
the Orc), but as examples
> go, Sabrina is much nicer to look at) are not serious fighters having half
her Strike Chances,
> Damage, and number of attacks.  But at least we're smarter than our
mounts. :-)

Ahh so that why Thorn can't be a serious Fighter, not because  she doesn't
have the stats or the skill set but because she is too smart.
I'll just have to make her a Serious Warrior instead then :-)

Helen


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Well I guess my point is that while you can start as a non-mage, in =
order to max out those "other" stats, sooner or later you may as well =
raise that MA and grab a college, as their is no real detriment (other =
than time and exp) to doing so, and plenty of benefits to gain.=20
=20
Correct, the only detriment to buying up MA and learning a collage is =
your lower MA, for the magic side of things. But then you have higher =
other stats so it balances.

Given enough time/exp the Warrior-Mage can be just as good at combat as =
the non-mage (arguably better with self stat buffs/def buffs/weapon =
buffs etc. they may gain from their college). And then they get the =
benefits of a college to boot.

Made possible by mage plate, which lets them tank up too. Or else the to =
cast or not to cast choice would still give nonmages a tank advantage.

That's the thing about DQ, given the time and exp you can be a =
Warrior/Mage/Thief/Ranger/Healer/Assassin etc. jack of all trades =
"instant party in one character". I don't advocate going to D&D =
"straight jacketed" classes but in many ways DQ is at the entire =
opposite end of the spectrum.=20

Because characters can be 10, 15 or more years old, that semi Mythical =
Beast the instant party in one character does apear to occur, however if =
all the characters are at that level this isn't a problem, the mages =
collage and mix of side skills eg troubador, spy, courtier, milsci often =
deside which role a character plays in the party.

Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the =
non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at =
pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time =
doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and =
studying arcane tomes.=20

But that occurs any way apart from the oddities caused by high stat =
rolls, and Non Mages that becomer Namers,
Just be cause Nonmages only have Stats weapons and skills to spend ep on =
not the magic as well.
At least until you get to silly high levels, and by then most of =
characters have picked up odd talents, abilities or weapons such that it =
no longer matters.

What I mean is I have encountered (and Im not the only one) an  attitued =
that your a cripple and a drag on the party if you get beyond bunny =
level and don't have a collage. That non mages are only good for combat =
and nothing else.
I will say I have encountered it less of late but that may be because I =
have proved to those people in the past that the character is more than =
just another sword.

And although I might be wrong it seems from your desire to limit warrior =
to non mages that you too have that being good at combat (which makes up =
only part of the game) is the main focus the only point of being a non =
mage.=20
Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy specialist =
would run?

Helen
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well I guess my point is that while you =
can start=20
as a non-mage, in order to max out those "other" stats, sooner or later =
you may=20
as well raise that MA and grab a college, as their is no real detriment =
(other=20
than time and exp) to doing so, and plenty of benefits to=20
gain.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Correct, the only=20
detriment to buying up MA and learning a collage is your lower MA, for =
the magic=20
side of things. But then you have higher other stats so it=20
balances.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT>
<DIV><BR>Given enough time/exp the Warrior-Mage can be just as good at =
combat as=20
the non-mage (arguably better with self stat buffs/def buffs/weapon =
buffs etc.=20
they may gain from their college). And then they get the benefits of a =
college=20
to boot.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Made possible by mage plate, which lets them =
tank up=20
too. Or else the to cast or not to cast choice would still give nonmages =
a tank=20
advantage.</FONT><BR><BR>That's the thing about DQ, given the time and =
exp you=20
can be a Warrior/Mage/Thief/Ranger/Healer/Assassin etc. jack of all =
trades=20
"instant party in one character". I don't advocate going to D&amp;D =
"straight=20
jacketed" classes but in many ways DQ is at the entire opposite end of =
the=20
spectrum. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Because characters can be 10, 15 or more =
years old,=20
that semi Mythical Beast the instant party in one character does apear =
to occur,=20
however if all the characters are at that level this isn't a problem, =
the mages=20
collage and mix of side skills eg troubador, spy, courtier, milsci often =
deside=20
which role a character plays in the party.</FONT><BR><BR>Separating =
warrior out=20
so only non-mages could get it would mean the non-mage tank (with =
warrior) was=20
actually better than the mage/tank at pure melee. As I recall Warrior =
talks=20
about having to spend much time doing physical and weapons training i.e. =
not=20
learning spells and studying arcane tomes. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>But&nbsp;that occurs any way apart from the =
oddities=20
caused by high stat rolls, and Non Mages that becomer =
Namers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Just be cause Nonmages only have Stats =
weapons and=20
skills to spend ep on not the magic as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>At least until you get to&nbsp;silly high =
levels, and=20
by then most of characters have picked up odd talents, abilities or =
weapons such=20
that it no longer matters.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT>
<DIV><BR>What I mean is&nbsp;I have encountered (and Im not the only =
one) an=20
&nbsp;attitued that your a cripple and a drag on the party if you get =
beyond=20
bunny level and don't have a collage. That non mages are only good for =
combat=20
and nothing else.</DIV>
<DIV>I will say I have encountered it less of late but that may be =
because I=20
have proved to those people in the past that the character is more than =
just=20
another sword.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>And although I might be wrong it seems from your desire to limit =
warrior to=20
non mages that you too have that being good at combat (which makes up =
only part=20
of the game) is the main focus the only point&nbsp;of being a non mage. =
</DIV>
<DIV>Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy specialist =
would=20
run?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Helen</FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Ya know, I'd have figured that this was allready covered under the seperation of Magical/Non Magical ranking.
 
Ignoring the fact that a 20 year fighter/mage can be just as good as a 5 year fighter, since they spent 5 years of their time training to be a fighter, but thats just silly comparing disparate training times and Ep amounts, or your saying all bunnies should be like Engalton.
 
Anyway, ignoring that, were a mage to spend say.... 23 weeks ranking warrior to 5, from unranked, exactly the same time it takes the non mage, during that time the mage can't improve their abilities in magic at all, (with the possible exclusion of namers via ranking a name), so how exactly is this not spending lots of time doing physical and weapons training, just the same as the non mage has to do.  So if a mage chooses to pursue the fighting skills as well as magic, compared to a pure mage of exactly same time, ep and funkyness, they will be less of a mage, and compared to a non mage of the same time, ep and funkyness, less of a warrior.
 
The only issue is that the fighter/mage who has had twice the amount of time/ep/funkyness can be as good a mage and as good a fighter, but thats where the 'levels' in DQ come into play isn't it....., to seperate characters based on experience.  If a character is a lot more experienced than anyone else in the game, then perhaps people should expect that they can fight as well as the non mage and cast as well as the pure mages.


Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com> wrote:

Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and studying arcane tomes.


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.
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<DIV>Ya know, I'd have figured that this was allready covered under the seperation of Magical/Non Magical ranking.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ignoring the fact that a 20 year fighter/mage can be just as good as a 5 year fighter, since they spent 5 years of their time training to be a fighter, but thats just silly comparing disparate training times and Ep amounts, or your saying all bunnies should be like Engalton.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, ignoring that, were a mage to spend say.... 23 weeks ranking warrior to 5, from unranked, exactly the same time it takes the&nbsp;non mage,&nbsp;during that time the mage can't improve their abilities in magic at all, (with the possible exclusion of namers via ranking a name), so how exactly is this not spending lots of time doing physical and weapons training, just the same as the non mage has to do.&nbsp; So if a mage chooses to pursue the fighting skills as well as magic, compared to a pure mage of exactly same time, ep and funkyness, they will be less of a mage, and compared to a non mage of the same time, ep and funkyness, less of a warrior.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The only issue is that the fighter/mage who has had twice the amount of time/ep/funkyness can be as good a mage and as good a fighter, but thats where the 'levels' in DQ come into play isn't it....., to seperate characters based on experience.&nbsp; If a character is a lot more experienced than anyone else in the game, then perhaps people should expect that they can fight as well as the non mage and cast as well as the pure mages.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" &lt;SimpsoM2@anz.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and studying arcane tomes.</DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> 
<a 
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/tag/newmovies/**http%3A%2F%2Fau.movies.yahoo.com%2F"> 
The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.</a>
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On 10/6/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure that Unarmed deserves a "nerfed" title.


Agreed, only nerfed in comparison with Unarmed under the Advanced rules. I
simply meant it as a shorthand for "depowered from its previous incarnation
because it was felt to be out of keeping with the rest of the system"...
something like that anyway.

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On 10/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I'm not sure that Unarmed deserves a &quot;nerfed&quot; title.</blockquote>=
<div><br>
Agreed, only nerfed in comparison with Unarmed under the Advanced
rules.&nbsp; I simply meant it as a shorthand for &quot;depowered from its
previous incarnation because it was felt to be out of keeping with the
rest of the system&quot;... something like that anyway.<br>
<br>
</div></div><br>

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Stephen Martin wrote:

>(Assuming we want this effect) Perhaps a wording change could be applied where it specifies
>Minimum 1.  Changing it to say the minimum is 1 after _ALL_ modifiers to the damage have been
>applied.
>Provided that it is clear that this is before we get to taking armour off.
>
>
>DSL AK said:
>  
>
>>3.11 Additional Damage - early drafts talking about modifiers to the damage modifier got messy,
>>so it was shortened to modifiers to the damage. If we want to change the wording to make the
>>rule clear, I wish someone luck. Otherwise, we can just agree that all damage modifiers modify
>>the damage modifier.
>>
>>Andrew
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Michael Parkinson
>>Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 4:04 p.m.
>>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>>Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>>>      
>>>
>>>Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
>>>Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 3:19 p.m.
>>>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>>>Subject: Re: [dq] Unarmed Combat - damage calc
>>>
>>>
>>>3.11 says you make a D10 roll, plus all modifiers, with a resulting  minimum of 1. 3.14 says
>>>you change the damage modifier (default -4)  based on PS. This
>>>then makes it -3, -2, etc.
>>>
>>>I think these two make it clear that you calculate your
>>>modifier and add
>>>it to D10.
>>>      
>>>
>>Agreed, since they change the modifier (besides, the maths is easier that way).  However skill
>>ranks are *additional* damage (according to the last 3 paragraphs of 3.11), likewise
>>overstrengthing for ordinary weapons -- thus someone with a whip (which has a max rank of 10, in
>>case you hadn't noticed) could end up with silly damage like  [D-3]+2 or [D-3]+3  ... Or you
>>could get it weaponsmithed & do [D-1]+2, [D-1]+3 ...
>>
>><!sigh>
>>
>>    
>>
>>>56.1 R  [...], but no matter which you prefer, R is nonsense.
>>>      
>>>
>>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>    
>>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
>  
>
The way I was taught when I started playing DQ (approx 15 yeras ago) was 
that Unarmed Combat dameage worked the same as spell damage ie [D-4(min 
10] + PS/3 + Rank Mod.

Scott Whitaker


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Yes though the thing is that mages need ep and little time while fighters
need time and little ep so in effect fighter/mage combo is by far the better
choice than either unless one wants to adventure with the same character
every session or once in a blue moon.

 

This is OK, but why would anyone be one or the other??  I do like the open
ended DQ 'train your character in the direction you want to go' approach and
having many different mages collages is the thing that makes it work.  

 

I think it would be nice though to have sufficient other magical/quasi
magical talents and skills that one could reasonably play a non collaged PC
without knowing that PC would max out after 5 years and have to take a
collage to keep the character interesting.  This would add a new dimension
to the game.  

 

Many great fighters just don't seem the same after they have become names -
take Drum for example - perfectly grumpy, power hungry, don't **** with me,
giant - who is now all civilized since he became a namer.

 

Hamish

 

 

          

 

Hamish Brown

Director

 

Zenergy

Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

119 Mt Eden Rd,

Auckland

www.zenergyglobal.com 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Bernard Hoggins
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 6:38 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters

 

Ya know, I'd have figured that this was allready covered under the
seperation of Magical/Non Magical ranking.

 

Ignoring the fact that a 20 year fighter/mage can be just as good as a 5
year fighter, since they spent 5 years of their time training to be a
fighter, but thats just silly comparing disparate training times and Ep
amounts, or your saying all bunnies should be like Engalton.

 

Anyway, ignoring that, were a mage to spend say.... 23 weeks ranking warrior
to 5, from unranked, exactly the same time it takes the non mage, during
that time the mage can't improve their abilities in magic at all, (with the
possible exclusion of namers via ranking a name), so how exactly is this not
spending lots of time doing physical and weapons training, just the same as
the non mage has to do.  So if a mage chooses to pursue the fighting skills
as well as magic, compared to a pure mage of exactly same time, ep and
funkyness, they will be less of a mage, and compared to a non mage of the
same time, ep and funkyness, less of a warrior.

 

The only issue is that the fighter/mage who has had twice the amount of
time/ep/funkyness can be as good a mage and as good a fighter, but thats
where the 'levels' in DQ come into play isn't it....., to seperate
characters based on experience.  If a character is a lot more experienced
than anyone else in the game, then perhaps people should expect that they
can fight as well as the non mage and cast as well as the pure mages.



Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com> wrote:


Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the
non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at pure
melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time doing
physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and studying arcane
tomes.



From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

  _____  

Do you Yahoo!?
The
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes though the thing is that mages =
need ep
and little time while fighters need time and little ep so in effect =
fighter/mage
combo is by far the better choice than either unless one wants to =
adventure
with the same character every session or once in a blue =
moon.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is OK, but why would anyone be =
one or
the other??&nbsp; I do like the open ended DQ &#8216;train your =
character in
the direction you want to go&#8217; approach and having many different =
mages
collages is the thing that makes it work.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think it would be nice though to =
have sufficient
other magical/quasi magical talents and skills that one could reasonably =
play a
non collaged PC without knowing that PC would max out after 5 years and =
have to
take a collage to keep the character interesting.&nbsp; This would add a =
new dimension
to the game.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Many great fighters just =
don&#8217;t seem
the same after they have become names &#8211; &nbsp;take Drum for =
example &#8211;
perfectly grumpy, power hungry, don&#8217;t **** with me, giant - who is =
now
all civilized since he became a namer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
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<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Whole =
People
Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2
  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
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Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
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<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book =
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book =
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<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bernard Hoggins<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, October =
06, 2005
6:38 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Serious =
Fighters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Ya know, I'd have figured that this was allready covered under =
the
seperation of Magical/Non Magical ranking.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Ignoring the fact that a 20 year fighter/mage can be just as =
good as a
5 year fighter, since they spent 5 years of their time training to be a
fighter, but thats just silly comparing disparate training times and Ep
amounts, or your saying all bunnies should be like =
Engalton.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Anyway, ignoring that, were a mage to spend say.... 23 weeks =
ranking
warrior to 5, from unranked, exactly the same time it takes the&nbsp;non
mage,&nbsp;during that time the mage can't improve their abilities in =
magic at
all, (with the possible exclusion of namers via ranking a name), so how =
exactly
is this not spending lots of time doing physical and weapons training, =
just the
same as the non mage has to do.&nbsp; So if a mage chooses to pursue the
fighting skills as well as magic, compared to a pure mage of exactly =
same time,
ep and funkyness, they will be less of a mage, and compared to a non =
mage of
the same time, ep and funkyness, less of a =
warrior.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The only issue is that the fighter/mage who has had twice the =
amount of
time/ep/funkyness can be as good a mage and as good a fighter, but thats =
where
the 'levels' in DQ come into play isn't it....., to seperate characters =
based
on experience.&nbsp; If a character is a lot more experienced than =
anyone else
in the game, then perhaps people should expect that they can fight as =
well as
the non mage and cast as well as the pure =
mages.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<b><i><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz,
&quot; Mark (NZ)&quot; &lt;SimpsoM2@anz.com&gt;</span></i></b> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the =
non-mage
tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at pure =
melee. As I
recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time doing physical and =
weapons
training i.e. not learning spells and studying arcane =
tomes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
From Bernard Hoggins<br>
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
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href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/tag/newmovies/**http%3A%2F%2Fau.mo=
vies.yahoo.com%2F">The
New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and =
full
Actor Database.</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Made possible by mage plate, which lets them tank up too.
> Or else the to cast or not to cast choice would still give
> nonmages a tank advantage.

It's not mage armour that's a problem per-se. It's
regenerating, light, no AG mod mage armour that's a problem.

Shaped plate that you can cast in is still c.55 lbs, -3 AG
and will be impossible to repair without a shaper (remember
that spec grevs reduce AP by 2 each time and at 0 it's
scrap).

However this isn't the mage-plate being handed out. On
certain characters I don't care. When the Titan beans Vychan
for 116 pts it makes little odds what he's in. When some
medium level character turns up in 20 lb heavy plate equiv
with no mods GM special modifiers start to kick in.



> What I mean is I have encountered (and Im not the only
> one) an  attitued that your a cripple and a drag on the
> party if you get beyond bunny level and don't have a
> collage. That non mages are only good for combat and
> nothing else. I will say I have encountered it less of
> late but that may be because I have proved to those people
> in the past that the character is more than just another
> sword.

The roleplaying hits back! Yee-Haaw!
So non-mages are regarded as cripples by mages. I would take
this as a gaming oppotunity since precious little
intolerance exists in the game.

For a quasi-1500's era intolerance is effectivly
non-existant. It should be mandantory (as it was for GURPS
Swashbucklers).
Think on it. Female adventurers should be regarded as freaks
at best, orcs not allowed in anything larger than a hamlet
and elves burnt at the stake for their alleged baby-eating
habits. About the only thing that happens in game is uppity
villages harrassing mages. Which abruptly stops at medium
levels when said mages can usually zorch any number of
rabble rousers.
Mage vs nonmage intolerances should be played up as one of
the few that is palatable to our tender morals.

Like it or not, a non-mage PC lives in a society of mages
(the Guild). They are actually getting treated accordingly.
They really are second class citizens. Imagine a mundane in
a SF game where everyone normally has psi powers, or a
mortal in a Vampire game. Your PC should expect some
prejudice from the characters and have some way of dealing
with it.
Like laughing her ass off when she breaks the crude iron
manacles off herself and telling her companions to just
magic themselves out of theirs. Or just as a massive chip on
her shoulder which she takes out on any unfortunate mage the
party captures...

Of course if it is players making the remarks then the GM
should slap them with a hefty EP penalty (x0 is a favourite
of mine for any evening) and a word afterwards.

To make it plain
Scorpian can call PJ Debourgnac 'a usless, inbred, f***wit'
and PJ can later spank Scorpian with an axe. The players
don't get to call each other useless or cowardly scum.

> And although I might be wrong it seems from your desire to
> limit warrior to non mages that you too have that being
> good at combat (which makes up only part of the game) is
> the main focus the only point of being a non mage.  Ive
> often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy
> specialist would run?

Merrick was such a character (played by Paul). As PCs go he
was pretty interesting (or pretty and interesting depending
on who you asked). As a 'soft-skills' specialist (Spy,
Assassian, Thief, Trobadour and Courtier) he was good at the
interaction and investigation. But given that DQ's typical
conflict resolution is mayhem Merrick did badly at such
stages.

William

PS my PCs attitudes in a soundbite

Pretty Flower - Despises all non-elves equally. Wonders why
SLSs become mages at all. They're just going to die, right?

Sven - Wonders why anyone who has the oppotunity would not
become a mage. Why throw away a useful tool? Divides those
who can't be mages into wenches, merchants, targets and
background.

Michael - Regards non-mages as 'inepts'. You can be a mage
and one of the true 'movers and shakers' or one of the
'moved and shook', your call.

Liessa - Needs to be gently reminded from time to time that
not everyone has 'phenomenal cosmic powers'. Will just
assume your abilities are not pertinent to the current
problem.


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> >Correct me if im wrong, but the only "benefit" to being a non-mage is the
> magic resist bonus? So from a pure >"power-gaming" standpoint why wouldnt
> you pick-up a college?  Personally I'd only make "Warrior" >available to
> non-mages ...
>
> That and between 6 and 13 Stat points you can put into other things. Bad
> namers can do this too, but good ones try to keep there MA up.

And of course the ability to truck around in lots of damage absorbing metal
armour....unless of course the game is floded with mage armour....:-%

Mandos
/s


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It allways has mystified me how such armour survives, I know of several sets that have taken spec grevs and thus lost protection...., but I think they've been mysteriously mended.

Mandos Mitchinson <mandos@allowed.to> wrote:And of course the ability to truck around in lots of damage absorbing metal
armour....unless of course the game is floded with mage armour....:-%

Mandos
/s


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
		
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<DIV>It allways has mystified me how such armour survives, I know of several sets that have taken spec grevs and thus lost protection...., but I think they've been mysteriously mended.<BR><BR><B><I>Mandos Mitchinson &lt;mandos@allowed.to&gt;</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">And of course the ability to truck around in lots of damage absorbing metal<BR>armour....unless of course the game is floded with mage armour....:-%<BR><BR>Mandos<BR>/s</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> 
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----- Original Message -----=20

I think it would be nice though to have sufficient other magical/quasi =
magical talents and skills that one could reasonably play a non collaged =
PC without knowing that PC would max out after 5 years and have to take =
a collage to keep the character interesting.  This would add a new =
dimension to the game. =20

Ahh Top out Syndrome, I've heard of this. Now Ive been playing 11 yrs =
with the same non mage, at least one if not two sessions a year for most =
of that time. Unlike some it has very few werid ep eating talents. It =
has yet to Max out all its stats, and is although it has all the weapons =
and most of the skills I want it to, it is nowhere near Topped out as it =
needs still more ranks in most. Its current problems are long training =
times, or just plain finding adventures, three of her last four where =
overflows.=20

=20
Many great fighters just don't seem the same after they have become =
names -  take Drum for example - perfectly grumpy, power hungry, don't =
**** with me, giant - who is now all civilized since he became a namer.

Drum Civilzed since when?  Pull the other one its got bells on it.
Besides he was always ment to be a mage his MA tops out high enough to =
be any thing but a binder, witch or bard.=20

 Helen
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<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR><BR>I think it=20
would be nice though to have sufficient other magical/quasi magical =
talents and=20
skills that one could reasonably play a non collaged PC without knowing =
that PC=20
would max out after 5 years and have to take a collage to keep the =
character=20
interesting.&nbsp; This would add a new dimension to the game.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Ahh Top out Syndrome, =
I've heard of=20
this. Now Ive&nbsp;been playing 11 yrs with the same non mage, at least =
one if=20
not two sessions a year for most of that time. Unlike some it =
has&nbsp;very few=20
werid ep eating talents. It has yet to Max out all its stats, and is =
although it=20
has all the weapons and most of the skills I want it to, it is nowhere =
near=20
Topped out as it needs still more ranks in most. Its current =
problems&nbsp;are=20
long training times, or just plain finding adventures, three of her=20
last&nbsp;four where overflows.&nbsp;</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;<BR>Many great fighters just don=92t seem the same after =
they have=20
become names =96&nbsp; take Drum for example =96 perfectly grumpy, power =
hungry,=20
don=92t **** with me, giant - who is now all civilized since he became a =

namer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Drum Civilzed =
since when?&nbsp;=20
Pull the other one its got bells on it.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Besides he was =
always ment to=20
be a mage his MA tops out high enough to be any thing but a binder, =
witch or=20
bard. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;Helen</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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