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Helen I wasnt really agreeing or disagreeing with you on your =
"perception" of non-mages point, merely taking the discussion off on =
another tangent. Id like to see additional benefits given to non-mages. =
Warrior seems like the logical one to me, but by no means the only =
possibility. Another idea would be to open up higher level skills to =
non-mages - ie if you have a college you are capped at rank 8 in skill =
XYZ whereas a non-mage can attain rank 10 say. Maybe the games to old =
for such radical change.
=20
By the way all my 3 characters have a college (well I guess technically =
illusionist counts as a college doesnt it?). Often there is the =
perception that you are a drag on the party if you have illusionist as a =
college ...
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Helen Saggers
Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2005 6:48 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters


Well I guess my point is that while you can start as a non-mage, in =
order to max out those "other" stats, sooner or later you may as well =
raise that MA and grab a college, as their is no real detriment (other =
than time and exp) to doing so, and plenty of benefits to gain.=20

Correct, the only detriment to buying up MA and learning a collage is =
your lower MA, for the magic side of things. But then you have higher =
other stats so it balances.


Given enough time/exp the Warrior-Mage can be just as good at combat as =
the non-mage (arguably better with self stat buffs/def buffs/weapon =
buffs etc. they may gain from their college). And then they get the =
benefits of a college to boot.
=20
Made possible by mage plate, which lets them tank up too. Or else the to =
cast or not to cast choice would still give nonmages a tank advantage.

That's the thing about DQ, given the time and exp you can be a =
Warrior/Mage/Thief/Ranger/Healer/Assassin etc. jack of all trades =
"instant party in one character". I don't advocate going to D&D =
"straight jacketed" classes but in many ways DQ is at the entire =
opposite end of the spectrum.=20
=20
Because characters can be 10, 15 or more years old, that semi Mythical =
Beast the instant party in one character does apear to occur, however if =
all the characters are at that level this isn't a problem, the mages =
collage and mix of side skills eg troubador, spy, courtier, milsci often =
deside which role a character plays in the party.

Separating warrior out so only non-mages could get it would mean the =
non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than the mage/tank at =
pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to spend much time =
doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and =
studying arcane tomes.=20
=20
But that occurs any way apart from the oddities caused by high stat =
rolls, and Non Mages that becomer Namers,
Just be cause Nonmages only have Stats weapons and skills to spend ep on =
not the magic as well.
At least until you get to silly high levels, and by then most of =
characters have picked up odd talents, abilities or weapons such that it =
no longer matters.


What I mean is I have encountered (and Im not the only one) an  attitued =
that your a cripple and a drag on the party if you get beyond bunny =
level and don't have a collage. That non mages are only good for combat =
and nothing else.
I will say I have encountered it less of late but that may be because I =
have proved to those people in the past that the character is more than =
just another sword.
=20
And although I might be wrong it seems from your desire to limit warrior =
to non mages that you too have that being good at combat (which makes up =
only part of the game) is the main focus the only point of being a non =
mage.=20
Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy specialist =
would run?
=20
Helen=20


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D633130720-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Helen=20
I wasnt really agreeing or disagreeing with you on =
your&nbsp;"perception" of=20
non-mages point, merely taking the discussion off on another tangent. Id =
like to=20
see additional benefits given to non-mages. Warrior seems like the =
logical one=20
to me,&nbsp;but by no means the only possibility. Another idea would be =
to open=20
up higher level skills to non-mages - ie if you have a college you are =
capped at=20
rank 8 in skill XYZ whereas a non-mage can attain rank 10 say. Maybe the =
games=20
to old for such radical change.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D633130720-06102005></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D633130720-06102005><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D633130720-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>By the=20
way all my 3 characters have a college (well I guess technically =
illusionist=20
counts as a college doesnt it?). Often there is the perception that you =
are a=20
drag on the party if you have illusionist as a college =
...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D633130720-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D633130720-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Helen=20
  Saggers<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 6 October 2005 6:48 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Serious=20
  Fighters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well I guess my point is that while =
you can start=20
  as a non-mage, in order to max out those "other" stats, sooner or =
later you=20
  may as well raise that MA and grab a college, as their is no real =
detriment=20
  (other than time and exp) to doing so, and plenty of benefits to=20
  gain.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Correct, =
the only=20
  detriment to buying up MA and learning a collage is your lower MA, for =
the=20
  magic side of things. But then you have higher other stats so it=20
  balances.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT>
  <DIV><BR>Given enough time/exp the Warrior-Mage can be just as good at =
combat=20
  as the non-mage (arguably better with self stat buffs/def buffs/weapon =
buffs=20
  etc. they may gain from their college). And then they get the benefits =
of a=20
  college to boot.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Made possible by mage plate, which lets =
them tank up=20
  too. Or else the to cast or not to cast choice would still give =
nonmages a=20
  tank advantage.</FONT><BR><BR>That's the thing about DQ, given the =
time and=20
  exp you can be a Warrior/Mage/Thief/Ranger/Healer/Assassin etc. jack =
of all=20
  trades "instant party in one character". I don't advocate going to =
D&amp;D=20
  "straight jacketed" classes but in many ways DQ is at the entire =
opposite end=20
  of the spectrum. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Because characters can be 10, 15 or more =
years old,=20
  that semi Mythical Beast the instant party in one character does apear =
to=20
  occur, however if all the characters are at that level this isn't a =
problem,=20
  the mages collage and mix of side skills eg troubador, spy, courtier, =
milsci=20
  often deside which role a character plays in the=20
  party.</FONT><BR><BR>Separating warrior out so only non-mages could =
get it=20
  would mean the non-mage tank (with warrior) was actually better than =
the=20
  mage/tank at pure melee. As I recall Warrior talks about having to =
spend much=20
  time doing physical and weapons training i.e. not learning spells and =
studying=20
  arcane tomes. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>But&nbsp;that occurs any way apart from the =
oddities=20
  caused by high stat rolls, and Non Mages that becomer =
Namers,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Just be cause Nonmages only have Stats =
weapons and=20
  skills to spend ep on not the magic as well.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>At least until you get to&nbsp;silly high =
levels, and=20
  by then most of characters have picked up odd talents, abilities or =
weapons=20
  such that it no longer matters.</FONT></DIV><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000></FONT>
  <DIV><BR>What I mean is&nbsp;I have encountered (and Im not the only =
one) an=20
  &nbsp;attitued that your a cripple and a drag on the party if you get =
beyond=20
  bunny level and don't have a collage. That non mages are only good for =
combat=20
  and nothing else.</DIV>
  <DIV>I will say I have encountered it less of late but that may be =
because I=20
  have proved to those people in the past that the character is more =
than just=20
  another sword.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>And although I might be wrong it seems from your desire to limit =
warrior=20
  to non mages that you too have that being good at combat (which makes =
up only=20
  part of the game) is the main focus the only point&nbsp;of being a non =
mage.=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV>Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy =
specialist would=20
  run?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
  color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Helen</FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I believe that the issue some people have with playing pure fighters is that they are combat
specialists.  Out of combat they can't do much so they get bored.

Other specialists have similar issues, the woods ranger "I'll sleep in a bed when I'm dead" type
sucks on a city/intrigue adventure, Water mages are crippled anywhere away from water, Bards and
Illusionists are crippled...

Our games are usually varied and rarely involve more than 3 nights of combat.  If you choose to
play a character that is only interesting a third of the time then it will be dull two thirds of
the time.
Get a hobby. :-)
Rounding out the character with skills and personality makes them interesting for far more of the
game.


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On 10/6/05, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> ...I have proved to those people in the past that the character is more
> than just another sword.
>  ...it seems from your desire to limit warrior to non mages that you too
> have that being good at combat (which makes up only part of the game) is =
the
> main focus the only point of being a non mage.
> Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy specialist would
> run?
>

I think Helen has the right of it.

From my experience a DQ quarter of 12-odd sessions might average perhaps 3
of actual combat (sometimes fewer), or looking the other way, 9 sessions
without drawn weapons... a 3:1 ratio.

A character who is specialised in / fixated on only combat will always be
seen as less useful (and probably less fun to play) -- heck, even if we
limited mages to 0-point robes and only gave them daggers a la original D&D=
,
and made the warriors veritable gods in combat, there'd still be 3 out of 4
sessions when the sword swingers would have little or nothing to do. (I've
played for enough years a "pure" mage who until very recently was so useles=
s
in combat that I know the feeling -- albeit from the other angle).

As Helen suggests, non-combat skills are part of a more rounded character -=
-
warrior/rangers, warrior/thieves... and perhaps oddly, warrior/healers all
give the non-mages more options in the sessions without a hex grid.

That said... DQ is a very magic rich / magic heavy game and world, and the
system offers few benefits for not having a college. I can see value in
making the benefits greater... but I think those benefits really have to be
something other than purely combat benefits -- they would need to (at least
partially) be of use in the 3 out of 4 sessions when the party are
investigating, or trekking, or negotiating, or whatever.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 10/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Helen Saggers</b> &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">helen@owbn.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
<span class=3D"q"></span><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#00=
00ff"><br>
<div>...I=20
have proved to those people in the past that the character is more than jus=
t=20
another sword.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>...it seems from your desire to limit warrior to=20
non mages that you too have that being good at combat (which makes up only =
part=20
of the game) is the main focus the only point&nbsp;of being a non mage. </d=
iv>
<div>Ive often wondered how a non mage, non combat, theif spy specialist wo=
uld=20
run?</div></font></font></blockquote><div><br>
I think Helen has the right of it.<br>
<br>
From my experience a DQ quarter of 12-odd sessions might average
perhaps 3 of actual combat (sometimes fewer), or looking the other way,
9 sessions without drawn weapons... a 3:1 ratio.<br>
<br>
A character who is specialised in / fixated on only combat will always
be seen as less useful (and probably less fun to play) -- heck, even if
we limited mages to 0-point robes and only gave them daggers a la
original D&amp;D, and made the warriors veritable gods in combat,
there'd still be 3 out of 4 sessions when the sword swingers would have
little or nothing to do.&nbsp; (I've played for enough years a &quot;pure&q=
uot;
mage who until very recently was so useless in combat that I know the
feeling -- albeit from the other angle).<br>
<br>
As Helen suggests, non-combat skills are part of a more rounded
character -- warrior/rangers, warrior/thieves... and perhaps oddly,
warrior/healers all give the non-mages more options in the sessions
without a hex grid.<br>
<br>
That said... DQ is a very magic rich / magic heavy game and world, and
the system offers few benefits for not having a college.&nbsp; I can
see value in making the benefits greater... but I think those benefits
really have to be something other than purely combat benefits -- they
would need to (at least partially) be of use in the 3 out of 4 sessions
when the party are investigating, or trekking, or negotiating, or
whatever.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div><br>

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On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> ...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...


Not often enough. Some are merely maimed.

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On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...</blockquote><div><br>
Not often enough.&nbsp; Some are merely maimed. <br>
</div><br></div><br>

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On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> Other specialists have similar issues, the woods ranger "I'll sleep in a
> bed when I'm dead" type
> sucks on a city/intrigue adventure, Water mages are crippled anywhere awa=
y
> from water, Bards and Illusionists are crippled...


However Mages, no matter how specialised, do tend to have at least a small
selection of abilities that given them some odd utility.

Your tree-hugger woods ranger (should they be an Earth mage) can also blend=
,
heal, detect poison and talk to potted plants (any of which might be useful
in a city/intrigue). The Water mage can make water when needed (though they
may blow their heads off trying), and flippancy aside -- Illusionists can b=
e
very useful. :-)

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On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Other specialists have similar issues, the woods ranger &quot;I'll sleep in=
 a bed when I'm dead&quot; type<br>sucks on a city/intrigue adventure, Wate=
r mages are crippled anywhere away from water, Bards and Illusionists are c=
rippled...
</blockquote><div><br>
However Mages, no matter how specialised, do tend to have at least a
small selection of abilities that given them some odd utility.<br>
<br>
Your tree-hugger woods ranger (should they be an Earth mage) can also
blend, heal, detect poison and talk to potted plants (any of which
might be useful in a city/intrigue). The Water mage can make water when
needed (though they may blow their heads off trying), and flippancy
aside -- Illusionists can be very useful. :-)</div></div><br>

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Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists
are crippled, why? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly
focussed, or something? I think the college needs more work (some people
say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken,
they can be fixed.
=20
As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't
play a low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c)
transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Martin Dickson
	Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44 a.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists
=09
=09
	On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
wrote:=20
=09

		...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...


	Not often enough.  Some are merely maimed.=20
=09




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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D101235220-06102005>Bards=20
are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists are =
crippled,=20
why? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly focussed, or=20
something? I think the college needs more work (some people say bring =
back the=20
old Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken, they can be=20
fixed.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D101235220-06102005>As a=20
player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't play a =

low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As a=20
GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D101235220-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Martin Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44=20
  a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
  Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 10/7/05, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Stephen=20
  Martin</B> &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark=
.net</A>&gt;=20
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">...Bards=20
    and Illusionists are crippled...</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Not often enough.&nbsp; Some are merely maimed.=20
  <BR></DIV><BR></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ)=20

Helen I wasnt really agreeing or disagreeing with you on your =
"perception" of non-mages point, merely taking the discussion off on =
another tangent. Id like to see additional benefits given to non-mages. =
Warrior seems like the logical one to me, but by no means the only =
possibility. Another idea would be to open up higher level skills to =
non-mages - ie if you have a college you are capped at rank 8 in skill =
XYZ whereas a non-mage can attain rank 10 say. Maybe the games to old =
for such radical change.
The subject of additional benifits aimed at non mage fighters is being =
looked at, the problem is how to add such to an exsisting system without =
messing with the balance of the game too much, and complicating up what =
is an already complicated system. Or chopping Large parts of time and EP =
out of exsisting characters.
There is a 16 page print out of something Jono sent me in my DQ draw =
covered in scribled notes, that looks good in principal, but changes =
take time look at theif it been in the system for I believe its 3 years =
now.=20
And as combat is only 1 in what every 3 nights of play adverage, it =
still leaves nonmages with the perception of only being swords with =
legs.

By the way all my 3 characters have a college (well I guess technically =
illusionist counts as a college doesnt it?). Often there is the =
perception that you are a drag on the party if you have illusionist as a =
college ...

The problem is that there are no direct power up, or attack spells in =
illusion. They are considered good for hiding things only. Few people =
rember that they have spells other than disguise, invis, and fog, they =
forget about the def spell, and they have this percetion that because an =
illusion its not real its no use.
You have to get creative to get the best out of illusion.
Best use of an illusionary wall I ever saw was mixed in with real walls =
of earth and fire to extend a defensive line,
even if they new it wasn't real they still couldn't target though it, no =
line of sight.

Helen

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>From:=20
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) <BR><BR>Helen I wasnt really =
agreeing or=20
disagreeing with you on your "perception" of non-mages point, merely =
taking the=20
discussion off on another tangent. Id like to see additional benefits =
given to=20
non-mages. Warrior seems like the logical one to me, but by no means the =
only=20
possibility. Another idea would be to open up higher level skills to =
non-mages -=20
ie if you have a college you are capped at rank 8 in skill XYZ whereas a =

non-mage can attain rank 10 say. Maybe the games to old for such radical =

change.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The&nbsp;subject =
of additional=20
benifits&nbsp;aimed at&nbsp;non mage fighters&nbsp;is being looked at, =
the=20
problem is how to add such to an exsisting system without messing with =
the=20
balance of the game too much, and complicating up what is an already =
complicated=20
system. Or chopping Large parts of time and EP out of exsisting=20
characters.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>There is a 16 =
page print out of=20
something Jono sent me in my DQ draw covered in scribled notes, that =
looks good=20
in principal, but changes take time look at theif it been in the system =
for I=20
believe its&nbsp;3 years&nbsp;now.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>And as combat is =
only 1 in what=20
every 3 nights of play adverage, it still leaves nonmages with the =
perception of=20
only being swords with legs.</FONT><BR><BR>By the way all my 3 =
characters have a=20
college (well I guess technically illusionist counts as a college doesnt =
it?).=20
Often there is the perception that you are a drag on the party if you =
have=20
illusionist as a college ...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The problem is that =
there are no=20
direct power up, or attack spells in illusion. They are considered good =
for=20
hiding things only. Few people rember that they have spells other than =
disguise,=20
invis, and fog, they forget about the def spell, and they have this =
percetion=20
that because an illusion its not real its no use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>You have to get =
creative to get the=20
best out of illusion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Best use of an =
illusionary wall I=20
ever saw was mixed&nbsp;in with real walls of earth and fire to extend a =

defensive line,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>even if they new it =
wasn't real they=20
still couldn't target though it, no line of sight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" =
simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the =
middle of the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero =
craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says =
the object appears as an object  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something =
like that. I have to rank this spell above 10 just to have a "real" =
looking chest?  ... arrggggghhh.=20
=20
When you think about it the most useful spells in any college can often =
come down to:
=20
1. Buffing spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour =
buffs, lesser Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc.  - =
illusionist get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special =
knowledge from memory);
2. Damage spells - illusionists get a very  underwhelming bolt
3. Transport spells - nope
4. Non damage based "Take down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?, =
charm etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - =
Flash of light.
5. Healing spells - nope
6. General Utility Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser =
Enchantment, Cold Protection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and =
Illusionary terrian - illusionists are reasonably well served here.=20
=20
The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence =
spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be =
hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a =
2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you =
got hold of the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 =
per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give =
some additional benefit/spice over the E&E version?
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 9:57 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists =
are crippled, why? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly =
focussed, or something? I think the college needs more work (some people =
say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken, =
they can be fixed.
=20
As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't =
play a low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.
=20
Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of =
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin < stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:=20


...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...


Not often enough.  Some are merely maimed.=20





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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" =
simple=20
illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the middle =
of the=20
floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero craftsman (think =
Homer=20
Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says the object appears as =
an=20
object&nbsp; made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have =
to rank=20
this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest? &nbsp;... =
arrggggghhh.=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>When=20
you think about it the most useful spells in any college can often come =
down=20
to:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>1.&nbsp;Buffing spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon =
buffs, armour=20
buffs,&nbsp;lesser Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing =
etc.&nbsp; -=20
illusionist get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special =
knowledge=20
from memory);</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>2.=20
Damage spells - illusionists get a very &nbsp;underwhelming=20
bolt</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>3.=20
Transport spells - nope</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>4. Non=20
damage based "Take&nbsp;down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?, =
charm=20
etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flash of=20
light.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>5.=20
Healing spells - nope</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>6.=20
General Utility Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser =
Enchantment,=20
Cold Protection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and Illusionary =
terrian -=20
illusionists are reasonably well served here. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D692430821-06102005>The one area I'd focus on first is giving =
Illusionists=20
a good defence spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, =
they=20
should be hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. =
What about=20
a 2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1 =
&nbsp;(once you=20
got hold of the&nbsp;slimey blighters it should easier to nail =
them)&nbsp;but 3=20
per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give =
some=20
additional benefit/spice over the E&amp;E=20
version?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 9:57 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005>Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are =
more=20
  common. If Illusionists are crippled, why? Presumably the college is =
not tough=20
  enough, or badly focussed, or something? I think the college needs =
more work=20
  (some people say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists =
are=20
  broken, they can be fixed.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D101235220-06102005>As a=20
  player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't play =
a=20
  low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As=20
  a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =

    </B>Martin Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44=20
    a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
    Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 10/7/05, <B=20
    class=3Dgmail_sendername>Stephen Martin</B> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark=
.net</A>&gt;=20
    wrote:=20
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">...Bards=20
      and Illusionists are crippled...</BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR>Not often enough.&nbsp; Some are merely maimed.=20
    <BR></DIV><BR></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Helen Saggers [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 10:40
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) 

Helen I wasnt really agreeing or disagreeing with you on your "perception"
of non-mages point, merely taking the discussion off on another tangent. Id
like to see additional benefits given to non-mages. Warrior seems like the
logical one to me, but by no means the only possibility. Another idea would
be to open up higher level skills to non-mages - ie if you have a college
you are capped at rank 8 in skill XYZ whereas a non-mage can attain rank 10
say. Maybe the games to old for such radical change.
The subject of additional benifits aimed at non mage fighters is being
looked at, the problem is how to add such to an exsisting system without
messing with the balance of the game too much, and complicating up what is
an already complicated system. Or chopping Large parts of time and EP out of
exsisting characters.
There is a 16 page print out of something Jono sent me in my DQ draw covered
in scribled notes, that looks good in principal, but changes take time look
at theif it been in the system for I believe its 3 years now. 
And as combat is only 1 in what every 3 nights of play adverage, it still
leaves nonmages with the perception of only being swords with legs.
 

This should also serve as warning to those considering having straight blast
mages, especially as repeatedly saying 'prepare' then 'cast at xxx' isn't
exactly a quality evening's entertainment.

 
 
By the way all my 3 characters have a college (well I guess technically
illusionist counts as a college doesnt it?). Often there is the perception
that you are a drag on the party if you have illusionist as a college ...
 
The problem is that there are no direct power up, or attack spells in
illusion. They are considered good for hiding things only. Few people rember
that they have spells other than disguise, invis, and fog, they forget about
the def spell, and they have this percetion that because an illusion its not
real its no use.
You have to get creative to get the best out of illusion. 

Perhaps I've been lucky in the creativeness of the illusionists I've
adventured with (or the missions they select), but I can't remember
considering them as a drag. Indeed, they have generally added options for
the party's approach to a mission. 
 
Cheers
Errol

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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff background="">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Helen Saggers 
  [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 
  10:40<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Serious 
  Fighters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: 
  Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) <BR><BR>Helen I wasnt really agreeing or 
  disagreeing with you on your "perception" of non-mages point, merely taking 
  the discussion off on another tangent. Id like to see additional benefits 
  given to non-mages. Warrior seems like the logical one to me, but by no means 
  the only possibility. Another idea would be to open up higher level skills to 
  non-mages - ie if you have a college you are capped at rank 8 in skill XYZ 
  whereas a non-mage can attain rank 10 say. Maybe the games to old for such 
  radical change.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>The&nbsp;subject of 
  additional benifits&nbsp;aimed at&nbsp;non mage fighters&nbsp;is being looked 
  at, the problem is how to add such to an exsisting system without messing with 
  the balance of the game too much, and complicating up what is an already 
  complicated system. Or chopping Large parts of time and EP out of exsisting 
  characters.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>There is a 16 page print out 
  of something Jono sent me in my DQ draw covered in scribled notes, that looks 
  good in principal, but changes take time look at theif it been in the system 
  for I believe its&nbsp;3 years&nbsp;now.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>And as combat is only 1 
  in what every 3 nights of play adverage, it still leaves nonmages with the 
  perception of only being swords with legs.</FONT><BR><SPAN 
  class=140534421-06102005><FONT 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=140534421-06102005>This 
should also serve as warning to those considering having straight blast mages, 
especially as repeatedly saying 'prepare' then 'cast at xxx' isn't exactly a 
quality evening's entertainment.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=140534421-06102005></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=140534421-06102005>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>By the way all my 3 characters have 
  a college (well I guess technically illusionist counts as a college doesnt 
  it?). Often there is the perception that you are a drag on the party if you 
  have illusionist as a college ...</FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The problem is that there are no 
  direct power up, or attack spells in illusion. They are considered good for 
  hiding things only. Few people rember that they have spells other than 
  disguise, invis, and fog, they forget about the def spell, and they have this 
  percetion that because an illusion its not real its no use.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>You have to get 
  creative to get the best out of illusion.<SPAN 
  class=140534421-06102005>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=140534421-06102005>Perhaps I've been lucky in the creativeness of the 
illusionists I've adventured with (or the missions they select), but I can't 
remember considering them as a drag. Indeed, they have generally added options 
for the party's approach to a mission. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=140534421-06102005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=140534421-06102005>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=140534421-06102005>Errol</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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MessageA Bunny level anything mage is struggling, perhaps people are =
more tolerant of low blast or power up transport mages as they know all =
they need its a little more ep and time, then they become one trick =
wonders for a while before rounding out.
Bards, Illusionists, Binders all need a far bit more time and ep etc. =
before they can strut their stuff properly. To really shine they also =
need a creativity in the use of the spells which some players (and GMs) =
find hard.

Helen

From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:57 AM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


  Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If =
Illusionists are crippled, why? Presumably the college is not tough =
enough, or badly focussed, or something? I think the college needs more =
work (some people say bring back the old Illusion college). If =
Illusionists are broken, they can be fixed.

  As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't =
play a low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.

  Andrew
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A&nbsp;Bunny level anything mage is =
struggling,=20
perhaps people are more tolerant of low blast or power up transport =
mages as=20
they know all they need its a little more ep and time, then they become =
one=20
trick wonders for a while before rounding out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bards, Illusionists, Binders all need a =
far bit=20
more time and ep etc. before they can strut their stuff properly. To =
really=20
shine they also need a creativity in the use of the spells which some =
players=20
(and GMs) find hard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz=20
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 07, 2005 =
9:57=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Specialists</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005>Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are =
more=20
  common. If Illusionists are crippled, why? Presumably the college is =
not tough=20
  enough, or badly focussed, or something? I think the college needs =
more work=20
  (some people say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists =
are=20
  broken, they can be fixed.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D101235220-06102005>As a=20
  player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't play =
a=20
  low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As=20
  a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D101235220-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>=
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The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence
spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be
hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a
2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you
got hold of the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3
per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give
some additional benefit/spice over the E&E version?
=20

	Multiple images is unique and tough-ish. It reduces the chance
to be hit by 2/3 or 3/4, regardless of your defence. It stacks with
defence spells. Its only weakness is that area effect damage dispells
it, and it ablates. If its not useful, lose these weaknesses. Its the
only defence spell that affects death aspect.
	Or for simple defence, +50 defence for invis, stacks with AoE or
Enchanted Armour, also rocks.
	=20
	Andrew


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D692430821-06102005>The one area I'd focus on first is giving =
Illusionists=20
a good defence spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, =
they=20
should be hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. =
What about=20
a 2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1 =
&nbsp;(once you=20
got hold of the&nbsp;slimey blighters it should easier to nail =
them)&nbsp;but 3=20
per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give =
some=20
additional benefit/spice over the E&amp;E=20
version?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D205205821-06102005>Multiple =
images is unique=20
  and tough-ish. It reduces the chance to be hit by 2/3 or 3/4, =
regardless of=20
  your defence. It stacks with defence spells. Its only weakness is that =
area=20
  effect damage dispells it, and it ablates. If its not useful, lose =
these=20
  weaknesses. Its the only defence spell that affects death=20
  aspect.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D205205821-06102005>Or for =
simple defence, +50=20
  defence for invis, stacks with AoE or Enchanted Armour, also=20
  rocks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D205205821-06102005></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D205205821-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D205205821-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>=
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> The problem is that there are no direct power up, or attack spells in
illusion.

That's not a problem, it's a feature....

Illusion is not a powerful college it must be said but unless we are all
power gamers there will always be rom for a college like Illusion. It has
some good spells and I don't think any of them are particularly broken.

Mandos
/s


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> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just
> "do" simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest
> sitting in the middle of the floor it would look like a chest
> made by a rank zero craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade
> quality), because the spell says the object appears as an object
>  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to rank
> this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest?  ... arrggggghhh.

I can see the problem....having to rank something in order to be able to
perform the task better is a pain in the bum and is definatly broken, we
should correct this immediatly!

</sarcasm>

> The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence
spell.
> They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be hard to
hit,
> so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a 2+2 per rank
spell
> which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you got hold of the slimey
> blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 per rank vs missiles? Also
> why not tweak their version of invis to give some additional benefit/spice
> over the E&E version?

And we could add a god weapon spell too. Maybe a good blast spell....

Oh wait a minute then they will be the same as all the other bland
featureless colleges with a standard set of spells.

Mandos
/s


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> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" 
> simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in 
> the middle of the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero

> craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell 
> says the object appears as an object  made by a rank/3 craftsman or 
> something like that. I have to rank this spell above 10 just to have a

> "real" looking chest?  ... arrggggghhh.

95% of artisan objects are Rank 0 mass produced. If you want to imitate
the Queen's hope chest, rank the spell. If you want a serviceable box
like all the other merchant/thieves, Rank 0 is fine. I agree than the
artisan references are a bit weird. But what else do you rank for an
insubstantial box?

Andrew


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I was being flippant about Illusionists.  They are at least as useful as Bards, ok, ok, more
useful than Bards, aaah, and Binders, and many other colleges too.  I am very sorry.
Can you take your sword out of my foot now please?

But seriously...
They are only crippled if you lack imagination.  Like the other colleges that don't have obvious
"rank me now" combat spells, they just require a little more creativity and subtlety in their use.
Or it could just be that most Illusionists I have seen played are fully rounded characters.


DSL AK said:
> Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists are crippled, why?
> Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly focussed, or something? I think the college
> needs more work (some people say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists are
> broken, they can be fixed.
>
> As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't play a low/medium
> illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new)
> is really tough.
>
> Andrew
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of Martin Dickson
> 	Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44 a.m.
> 	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> 	Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists
>
>
> 	On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> 		...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...
>
>
> 	Not often enough.  Some are merely maimed.
>


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I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being =
"gimped" has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are not =
creative with their use of spells. There are a couple of special =
knowledge spells/rituals which are very useful away you spent vast =
amounts of EP on them (ie disguise - which you really need to rank to at =
least 16 AND then acquire and rank Illusionary aura ritual otherwise the =
Elf disguised as a human comes up as short lived sentient etc.).  But =
then there are "useful" spells in all colleges, and the existence of a =
few in illusionist doesnt make the college "balanced". I know of my =
three characters I know I have a gut feel that the illusionist is the =
most limited in terms of what he can contribute in a group in many/most =
situations.  And I often felt I simply couldnt do what I wanted to with =
simple illlusions.
=20
It not about powergaming Mandos, thats a typically blinkered way of =
looking at any problem. Do you really think being able to cast a =
illusion of a real looking chest at rank 2 in the spell is too powerful =
Mandos? Do you think its a bad idea to actually encourage illusionists =
to cast illusions?=20
=20
Illusionists are a sort of standing joke in the guild, somewhat based on =
fact and somewhat on popular myth.=20

[Simpson, Mark (NZ)]  -----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Helen Saggers
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 11:11 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists



A Bunny level anything mage is struggling, perhaps people are more =
tolerant of low blast or power up transport mages as they know all they =
need its a little more ep and time, then they become one trick wonders =
for a while before rounding out.
Bards, Illusionists, Binders all need a far bit more time and ep etc. =
before they can strut their stuff properly. To really shine they also =
need a creativity in the use of the spells which some players (and GMs) =
find hard.
=20
Helen
=20
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> =20

To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists

Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists =
are crippled, why? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly =
focussed, or something? I think the college needs more work (some people =
say bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken, =
they can be fixed.
=20
As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't =
play a low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.
=20
Andrew


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I dont=20
think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being "gimped" has =
risen=20
up simply because alot of illusionists are not creative with their use =
of=20
spells. There are a couple of special knowledge spells/rituals which are =
very=20
useful away you spent vast amounts of EP on them (ie disguise - which =
you really=20
need to rank to at least 16 AND then acquire and rank Illusionary aura =
ritual=20
otherwise the Elf disguised as a human comes up as short lived sentient=20
etc.).&nbsp; But then there are "useful" spells in all colleges, and the =

existence of a few in illusionist doesnt make the college "balanced". I =
know of=20
my three characters I know I have a gut feel that the illusionist is the =
most=20
limited in terms of what he can contribute in a group in many/most=20
situations.&nbsp;&nbsp;And I often felt I simply couldnt do what I =
wanted to=20
with simple illlusions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>It not=20
about powergaming Mandos, thats a&nbsp;typically blinkered way of =
looking at any=20
problem. Do you really think being able to cast a illusion of a real =
looking=20
chest at rank 2 in the spell&nbsp;is too powerful Mandos? Do you think =
its a bad=20
idea to actually encourage&nbsp;illusionists to cast illusions?=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Illusionists are a sort of standing joke in the guild, somewhat =
based on=20
fact and somewhat on popular myth. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005></SPAN><FONT =
face=3DTahoma><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D530180522-06102005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff>[Simpson,=20
Mark (NZ)]&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Helen=20
Saggers<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 11:11 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A&nbsp;Bunny level anything mage is =
struggling,=20
  perhaps people are more tolerant of low blast or power up transport =
mages as=20
  they know all they need its a little more ep and time, then they =
become one=20
  trick wonders for a while before rounding out.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bards, Illusionists, Binders all need =
a far bit=20
  more time and ep etc. before they can strut their stuff properly. To =
really=20
  shine they also need a creativity in the use of the spells which some =
players=20
  (and GMs) find hard.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 07, =
2005 9:57=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Specialists</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D101235220-06102005>Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists =
are more=20
    common. If Illusionists are crippled, why? Presumably the college is =
not=20
    tough enough, or badly focussed, or something? I think the college =
needs=20
    more work (some people say bring back the old Illusion college). If=20
    Illusionists are broken, they can be fixed.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D101235220-06102005>As=20
    a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't =
play a=20
    low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) =
transport.=20
    As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D101235220-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D101235220-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCK=
QUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I'd have rank limit the size and the size alone. Rank 20 you can do a house or even a Mansion. Rank zero a small box. That sort of thing. 

It's like the old illusionary animals that would travel at rank related speed - so you could cast a sparrow at rank 1 that looked real but travelled at TMR 1. Amusing but silly. The rank to size limitation was enough.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 11:17 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" 
> simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in 
> the middle of the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero

> craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell 
> says the object appears as an object  made by a rank/3 craftsman or 
> something like that. I have to rank this spell above 10 just to have a

> "real" looking chest?  ... arrggggghhh.

95% of artisan objects are Rank 0 mass produced. If you want to imitate
the Queen's hope chest, rank the spell. If you want a serviceable box
like all the other merchant/thieves, Rank 0 is fine. I agree than the
artisan references are a bit weird. But what else do you rank for an
insubstantial box?

Andrew


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MessageRank 0 is a jouneyman just out of his aprenticeship level, the =
only differance between a Rank O chest with carved pannels and a rank 4 =
or 6 one would be the quality of the finishing and the complication of =
the pattern, both would be serviceable chests.

Each Collage is different each has a different focus, each is suposed to =
fit or complement another, just yesterday you where saying that it was =
easy for characters to become Jacks of all trades, if  all the collages =
had a def spell a blast spell, etc at the same sort of power level it =
reduces the differance between the collages. It gets you closer to the =
One man adventuring party with any sort of mage.

Ideally an adventuring party should have a spread of mages whose magics =
strenghten, protect and inhance each other, however because of the Guild =
system of obtaining adventures we don't always get a good balance, you =
don't always get some collages or some characters are focused on other =
parts of the collage than the one that would be really usefull to the =
present party/situation. But still we manage to have fun, some times the =
chalenge of overcoming of these short falls make the adventure more fun.
The true strenght of the DQ system is that no two characters with the =
same collage, the same time and ep are carbon copies of each other, =
players can  build characters whose differanceare more than just =
personality deep.

Helen

=20
----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:02 AM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


  The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence =
spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be =
hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a =
2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you =
got hold of the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 =
per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give =
some additional benefit/spice over the E&E version?

    Multiple images is unique and tough-ish. It reduces the chance to be =
hit by 2/3 or 3/4, regardless of your defence. It stacks with defence =
spells. Its only weakness is that area effect damage dispells it, and it =
ablates. If its not useful, lose these weaknesses. Its the only defence =
spell that affects death aspect.
    Or for simple defence, +50 defence for invis, stacks with AoE or =
Enchanted Armour, also rocks.

    Andrew
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rank 0 is a jouneyman just out of his =
aprenticeship=20
level, the only differance between a Rank O chest with carved pannels =
and a rank=20
4 or 6 one would be the quality of the finishing and the complication of =
the=20
pattern, both would be serviceable chests.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Each Collage is different each has a =
different=20
focus, each is suposed to fit or complement another, just yesterday you =
where=20
saying that it was easy for characters to become Jacks of all trades, =
if&nbsp;=20
all the collages had a def spell a blast spell, etc at the same sort of =
power=20
level it reduces the differance between the collages. It gets you closer =
to the=20
One man adventuring party with any sort of mage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ideally an adventuring party should =
have a spread=20
of mages whose magics strenghten, protect and inhance each other, =
however=20
because of the Guild system of obtaining adventures we don't always get =
a good=20
balance, you don't always get some collages or some characters are =
focused on=20
other parts of the collage than the one that would be really usefull to =
the=20
present party/situation. But still we manage to have fun, some times the =

chalenge of overcoming of these short falls make the adventure more=20
fun.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT>The&nbsp;true strenght of =
the DQ system=20
is that no two characters with the same collage, the same</FONT> time =
and ep are=20
carbon copies of each other, players can&nbsp; build characters whose=20
differanceare more than just personality deep.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Helen</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 07, 2005 =
11:02=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Specialists</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D692430821-06102005>The one area I'd focus on first is giving=20
  Illusionists a good defence spell. They are meant to be masters of =
deceiving=20
  the eye, they should be hard to hit, so why not give them a top line =
defence=20
  spell. What about a 2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or =
only=20
  1+1 &nbsp;(once you got hold of the&nbsp;slimey blighters it should =
easier to=20
  nail them)&nbsp;but 3 per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their =
version=20
  of invis to give some additional benefit/spice over the E&amp;E=20
  version?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D692430821-06102005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D205205821-06102005>Multiple =
images is=20
    unique and tough-ish. It reduces the chance to be hit by 2/3 or 3/4, =

    regardless of your defence. It stacks with defence spells. Its only =
weakness=20
    is that area effect damage dispells it, and it ablates. If its not =
useful,=20
    lose these weaknesses. Its the only defence spell that affects death =

    aspect.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D205205821-06102005>Or for =
simple defence,=20
    +50 defence for invis, stacks with AoE or Enchanted Armour, also=20
    rocks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D205205821-06102005></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D205205821-06102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    =
class=3D205205821-06102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCK=
QUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On 10/7/05, Mandos Mitchinson <mandos@allowed.to> wrote:
>
> > The problem is that there are no direct power up, or attack spells in
> illusion.
>
> That's not a problem, it's a feature....


Agreed. If there are problems with the College then it may be around
flexibility of what can be envisioned / created.

The old College was deemed too odd and freeform, the current is perhaps jus=
t
a bit too static.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mandos@allowed.to">mandos@allowed.to</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-le=
ft: 1ex;">
&gt; The problem is that there are no direct power up, or attack spells in<=
br>illusion.<br><br>That's not a problem, it's a feature....</blockquote><d=
iv><br>
Agreed.&nbsp; If there are problems with the College then it may be around =
flexibility of what can be envisioned / created.<br>
<br>
The old College was deemed too odd and freeform, the current is perhaps jus=
t a bit too static.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div><br>

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Message
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ)=20

I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being =
"gimped" has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are not =
creative with their use of spells.=20

No illusionists are gimped because they still can't do anything useful =
after three adventure, in that time you can get a useful quickness or a =
reasonable flight spell etc but not so with illusion.

There are a couple of special knowledge spells/rituals which are very =
useful away you spent vast amounts of EP on them (ie disguise - which =
you really need to rank to at least 16 AND then acquire and rank =
Illusionary aura ritual otherwise the Elf disguised as a human comes up =
as short lived sentient etc.).  But then there are "useful" spells in =
all colleges, and the existence of a few in illusionist doesnt make the =
college "balanced". I know of my three characters I know I have a gut =
feel that the illusionist is the most limited in terms of what he can =
contribute in a group in many/most situations.  And I often felt I =
simply couldnt do what I wanted to with simple illlusions.

One can but wonder at the age of these characters, its taken me more =
than 5 years to play an binder to a more useful point. Some characters =
become useful at different ages-stages, in this world of fast food, fast =
cars, and moble phones, the long veiw is often over looked. Maybe I'm =
just showing my age after all I've got over ten years of playing DQ, but =
even 3 or 4 years ago I could see the light at the end of the tunnel =
evern if it was a long way off.


Helen
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>From:=20
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) <BR><BR>I dont think its fair to say =
the=20
perception of illusionist's being "gimped" has risen up simply because =
alot of=20
illusionists are not creative with their use of spells. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>No illusionists are =
gimped because=20
they still can't do anything useful after three adventure, in that time =
you can=20
get a useful quickness or a reasonable flight spell etc but not so with=20
illusion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are a couple of special knowledge =

spells/rituals which are very useful away you spent vast amounts of EP =
on them=20
(ie disguise - which you really need to rank to at least 16 AND then =
acquire and=20
rank Illusionary aura ritual otherwise the Elf disguised as a human =
comes up as=20
short lived sentient etc.).&nbsp; But then there are "useful" spells in =
all=20
colleges, and the existence of a few in illusionist doesnt make the =
college=20
"balanced". I know of my three characters I know I have a gut feel that =
the=20
illusionist is the most limited in terms of what he can contribute in a =
group in=20
many/most situations.&nbsp; And I often felt I simply couldnt do what I =
wanted=20
to with simple illlusions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>One can but =
wonder at the age=20
of these characters, its taken me more than 5 years to play an binder to =
a more=20
useful point. Some characters become useful at different ages-stages, in =
this=20
world of fast food, fast cars, and&nbsp;moble phones,&nbsp;the long veiw =
is=20
often over looked. Maybe I'm just showing my age after all I've got over =
ten=20
years of playing DQ, but even 3 or 4 years ago I could see the light at =
the end=20
of the tunnel evern if it was a long way off.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>Helen</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Hiya all,

 

I am seeking feedback from people on a "high level" kingdom style map. This
is to say I have put together a map which is aimed at showing where large
forests, country borders, and alike are.

It is not aimed at showing towns and villages etc. 

 

Could you please view the map at;

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/New_Maps

 

All feed back welcome.

 

Kind regards,

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hiya all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I am seeking feedback from people on a =
&#8220;high
level&#8221; kingdom style map. This is to say I have put together a map =
which
is aimed at showing where large forests, country borders, and alike =
are.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It is not aimed at showing towns and villages =
etc. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Could you please view the map =
at;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>http://www.dragonquest.org.n=
z/dqwiki/index.php/New_Maps<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>All feed back =
welcome.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>TME - Its all about time</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Phone <st1:Street =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address
 w:st=3D"on">966 1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO =
Box
  35902</st1:address></st1:Street>, <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName>
 <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Mob 021 173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Free 0800 55 33 =
66</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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On 07/10/2005, at 11:14, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just
>> "do" simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest
>> sitting in the middle of the floor it would look like a chest
>> made by a rank zero craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade
>> quality), because the spell says the object appears as an object
>>  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to rank
>> this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest?  ... 
>> arrggggghhh.
>
> I can see the problem....having to rank something in order to be able 
> to
> perform the task better is a pain in the bum and is definatly broken, 
> we
> should correct this immediatly!

I am confused by the original complaint. A rank 0 craftsman should be 
doing a whole heap better than Homer Simpson. They might not make a 
fancy chest, but they should be making a plain serviceable item. They 
have had 8 weeks training in wood working.

cheers,

clare


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Illusionist's are cool 

 

most I have adventured with have given the party a wide range of options for
the mission - it could be that I have adventured only with experienced ones
and it takes time to be valuable.  I think this is OK, develop some other
skills in the meantime.

 

Shadow mages get a cool defense spell straight away and can rank it cheaply
so are 'one trick ponies' until they have 10,000 silvers to buy wings then
they are '2 trick ponies'.  I can tell you from experience that having 2
things to offer a party leaves one constantly low on fatigue and board from
all the rolling.  Over time other things become available.  I like the
variety in the collages -variety is the spice of life.

 

What we need though are more forms of magic which are available to mages and
non mages alike.  More rank-able racial talents and Jono's magic recipes are
two options.. :-)  

 

 

H

 

 

Hamish Brown

Director

 

Zenergy

Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

119 Mt Eden Rd,

Auckland

www.zenergyglobal.com 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 1:55 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists

 


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) 

I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being "gimped"
has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are not creative with their
use of spells. 

 

No illusionists are gimped because they still can't do anything useful after
three adventure, in that time you can get a useful quickness or a reasonable
flight spell etc but not so with illusion.

 

There are a couple of special knowledge spells/rituals which are very useful
away you spent vast amounts of EP on them (ie disguise - which you really
need to rank to at least 16 AND then acquire and rank Illusionary aura
ritual otherwise the Elf disguised as a human comes up as short lived
sentient etc.).  But then there are "useful" spells in all colleges, and the
existence of a few in illusionist doesnt make the college "balanced". I know
of my three characters I know I have a gut feel that the illusionist is the
most limited in terms of what he can contribute in a group in many/most
situations.  And I often felt I simply couldnt do what I wanted to with
simple illlusions.

 

One can but wonder at the age of these characters, its taken me more than 5
years to play an binder to a more useful point. Some characters become
useful at different ages-stages, in this world of fast food, fast cars, and
moble phones, the long veiw is often over looked. Maybe I'm just showing my
age after all I've got over ten years of playing DQ, but even 3 or 4 years
ago I could see the light at the end of the tunnel evern if it was a long
way off.



Helen


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Illusionist&#8217;s are cool =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>most I have adventured with have =
given the
party a wide range of options for the mission &#8211; it could be that I =
have
adventured only with experienced ones and it takes time to be =
valuable.&nbsp; I
think this is OK, develop some other skills in the =
meantime.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Shadow mages get a cool defense =
spell straight
away and can rank it cheaply so are &#8216;one trick ponies&#8217; until =
they
have 10,000 silvers to buy wings then they are &#8216;2 trick =
ponies&#8217;.&nbsp;
I can tell you from experience that having 2 things to offer a party =
leaves one
constantly low on fatigue and board from all the rolling.&nbsp; Over =
time other
things become available.&nbsp; I like the variety in the collages =
&#8211;variety
is the spice of life.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What we need though are more forms =
of
magic which are available to mages and non mages alike.&nbsp; More =
rank-able racial
talents and Jono&#8217;s magic recipes are two options&#8230;. =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> =
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
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People
Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book =
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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Helen Saggers<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, October 07, =
2005
1:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Specialists</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ) <br>
<br>
I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being
&quot;gimped&quot; has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are =
not
creative with their use of spells. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>No illusionists are gimped because =
they
still can't do anything useful after three adventure, in that time you =
can get
a useful quickness or a reasonable flight spell etc but not so with =
illusion.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>There are a couple of special knowledge =
spells/rituals which
are very useful away you spent vast amounts of EP on them (ie disguise - =
which
you really need to rank to at least 16 AND then acquire and rank =
Illusionary
aura ritual otherwise the Elf disguised as a human comes up as short =
lived
sentient etc.).&nbsp; But then there are &quot;useful&quot; spells in =
all
colleges, and the existence of a few in illusionist doesnt make the =
college
&quot;balanced&quot;. I know of my three characters I know I have a gut =
feel
that the illusionist is the most limited in terms of what he can =
contribute in
a group in many/most situations.&nbsp; And I often felt I simply couldnt =
do
what I wanted to with simple illlusions.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>One can but wonder at the age of =
these
characters, its taken me more than 5 years to play an binder to a more =
useful
point. Some characters become useful at different ages-stages, in this =
world of
fast food, fast cars, and&nbsp;moble phones,&nbsp;the long veiw is often =
over
looked. Maybe I'm just showing my age after all I've got over ten years =
of
playing DQ, but even 3 or 4 years ago I could see the light at the end =
of the
tunnel evern if it was a long way off.</span></font><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><br>
<br>
Helen<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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I dunno I had two years of woodwork classes and couldnt make one, but perhaps that besides the point. :)

Lets say you break into some NPC's lair/house/castle whatever and take the small chest off the table. I wouldnt had thought it would not be to much to ask for a baby illusionist to be able to cast an illusion of it still being there without getting into this exercise of what Artisan level craftsman created the original. The whole point was the linking the "look" of your illusion's to some rank/x artisan level unnecssarily complicates things. Why not just have the illsuion "look real" at any spell rank, and simply constrain the size/duration of the illusion by its rank?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Clare Baldock
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 2:35 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists



On 07/10/2005, at 11:14, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

>> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just
>> "do" simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest
>> sitting in the middle of the floor it would look like a chest
>> made by a rank zero craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade
>> quality), because the spell says the object appears as an object
>>  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to rank
>> this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest?  ... 
>> arrggggghhh.
>
> I can see the problem....having to rank something in order to be able 
> to
> perform the task better is a pain in the bum and is definatly broken, 
> we
> should correct this immediatly!

I am confused by the original complaint. A rank 0 craftsman should be 
doing a whole heap better than Homer Simpson. They might not make a 
fancy chest, but they should be making a plain serviceable item. They 
have had 8 weeks training in wood working.

cheers,

clare


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Afternoon all

Our party is dealing with what appears to be a magical plague. Ian W said
that he thought there was a party that encountered one in Cauldersfield a
few years ago. Can anyone point us in the direction of what the bookworms
will find in the Guild Library in the way of Scribe Notes etc.

Thanks
Darien/Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Afternoon all</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Our party is dealing with what appears =
to be a magical plague. Ian W said that he thought there was a party =
that encountered one in</FONT> <FONT FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">Cauldersfield</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0000FF" FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a few years ago. Can =
anyone point us in the direction of what the bookworms will find in the =
Guild Library in the way of Scribe Notes etc.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Darien/Errol</FONT>
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I dunno I had two years of woodwork classes and couldnt make one, but =
perhaps that besides the point. :)

There is a big differance between and hour or  two a week over 2 years =
at school and 8 to 10 hrs a day 7 days a week for 8 wks. 2 years of =
School totals like maybe 100 hrs of learning against 450 plus hours of =
training to Rank 0.=20

Lets say you break into some NPC's lair/house/castle whatever and take =
the small chest off the table. I wouldnt had thought it would not be to =
much to ask for a baby illusionist to be able to cast an illusion of it =
still being there without getting into this exercise of what Artisan =
level craftsman created the original. The whole point was the linking =
the "look" of your illusion's to some rank/x artisan level unnecssarily =
complicates things. Why not just have the illsuion "look real" at any =
spell rank, and simply constrain the size/duration of the illusion by =
its rank?

To this I agree if you have the lady's jewel box right in front of you =
you should be able to copy it, thats where selling it to the GM comes in =
we Gods do have the power to vary the rules.=20
Spells for these illusions say 1/2 or 1/3 thr Artisan rank, not spell =
rank, ei you need to be a carpenter or a jeweler to to make a chair or a =
necklace.=20
But as a GM I would rule that would be more for creating something from =
scratch rather than a copy something that you can see. (Size is already =
covered in the spell write up)

Helen
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I dunno I had two years of woodwork =
classes and=20
couldnt make one, but perhaps that besides the point. :)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>There is a big=20
differance&nbsp;between and hour or&nbsp; two a&nbsp;week over 2 years =
at school=20
and&nbsp;8 to&nbsp;10 hrs a day 7 days a week for 8 wks. 2 years of =
School=20
t</FONT></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>otals =
like&nbsp;maybe=20
100 hrs of learning against 450&nbsp;plus hours of training to Rank 0.=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lets say you break into some NPC's=20
lair/house/castle whatever and take the small chest off the table. I =
wouldnt had=20
thought it would not be to much to ask for a baby illusionist to be able =
to cast=20
an illusion of it still being there without getting into this exercise =
of what=20
Artisan level craftsman created the original. The whole point was the =
linking=20
the "look" of your illusion's to some rank/x artisan level unnecssarily=20
complicates things. Why not just have the illsuion "look real" at any =
spell=20
rank, and simply constrain the size/duration of the illusion by its=20
rank?<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>To this I agree if you have the =
lady's jewel=20
box right in front of you you should be able to copy it, thats=20
where&nbsp;selling it to the GM comes in we Gods do have the power to =
vary the=20
rules. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Spells for these =
illusions say 1/2 or=20
1/3 thr Artisan&nbsp;rank, not spell rank, ei you need to be a carpenter =
or a=20
jeweler to&nbsp;to make a chair or a necklace. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>But as a GM I would =
rule that would=20
be more for creating something from scratch rather than a copy something =
that=20
you can see. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>(Size is already=20
covered in the spell write up)<BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Helen</FONT></DIV></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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-----Original Message-----
From: Helen Saggers [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]
Sent: Friday, 7 October 2005 15:55
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


I dunno I had two years of woodwork classes and couldnt make one, but
perhaps that besides the point. :)
 
There is a big differance between and hour or  two a week over 2 years at
school and 8 to 10 hrs a day 7 days a week for 8 wks. 2 years of School
totals like maybe 100 hrs of learning against 450 plus hours of training to
Rank 0. 
 
Lets say you break into some NPC's lair/house/castle whatever and take the
small chest off the table. I wouldnt had thought it would not be to much to
ask for a baby illusionist to be able to cast an illusion of it still being
there without getting into this exercise of what Artisan level craftsman
created the original. The whole point was the linking the "look" of your
illusion's to some rank/x artisan level unnecssarily complicates things. Why
not just have the illsuion "look real" at any spell rank, and simply
constrain the size/duration of the illusion by its rank?

To this I agree if you have the lady's jewel box right in front of you you
should be able to copy it, thats where selling it to the GM comes in we Gods
do have the power to vary the rules. 
Spells for these illusions say 1/2 or 1/3 thr Artisan rank, not spell rank,
ei you need to be a carpenter or a jeweler to to make a chair or a necklace.

But as a GM I would rule that would be more for creating something from
scratch rather than a copy something that you can see. (Size is already
covered in the spell write up)

Helen 
 

Static Illusion (G-7)
Effects: This spell creates a visual Illusion within a
volume no larger than (Rank + 3) feet by (Rank / 2 +
2) feet by (Rank / 3 + 1) feet. The Illusion is fixed at
casting, and may not be changed or moved with this
spell. The workmanship is as if the Adept were an
Artisan of one-half Rank.

I read this as the rank of the spell, not your rank with the Artisan skill.
'Rank' in a spell description is the caster's rank with the spell unless it
clearly says otherwise.
 
Cheers
Errol

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Helen Saggers 
  [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 October 2005 
  15:55<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] 
  Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I dunno I had two years of woodwork classes and 
  couldnt make one, but perhaps that besides the point. :)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>There is a big 
  differance&nbsp;between and hour or&nbsp; two a&nbsp;week over 2 years at 
  school and&nbsp;8 to&nbsp;10 hrs a day 7 days a week for 8 wks. 2 years of 
  School t</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>otals 
  like&nbsp;maybe 100 hrs of learning against 450&nbsp;plus hours of training to 
  Rank 0. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lets say you break into some NPC's 
  lair/house/castle whatever and take the small chest off the table. I wouldnt 
  had thought it would not be to much to ask for a baby illusionist to be able 
  to cast an illusion of it still being there without getting into this exercise 
  of what Artisan level craftsman created the original. The whole point was the 
  linking the "look" of your illusion's to some rank/x artisan level 
  unnecssarily complicates things. Why not just have the illsuion "look real" at 
  any spell rank, and simply constrain the size/duration of the illusion by its 
  rank?<BR><BR><FONT color=#0000ff>To this I agree if you have the lady's jewel 
  box right in front of you you should be able to copy it, thats 
  where&nbsp;selling it to the GM comes in we Gods do have the power to vary the 
  rules. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Spells for these illusions say 1/2 
  or 1/3 thr Artisan&nbsp;rank, not spell rank, ei you need to be a carpenter or 
  a jeweler to&nbsp;to make a chair or a necklace. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But as a GM I would rule that would 
  be more for creating something from scratch rather than a copy something that 
  you can see. </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>(Size is 
  already covered in the spell write up)<BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
  size=2>Helen<SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=328484902-07102005></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT color=#0000ff>Static Illusion 
(G-7)<BR>Effects: This spell creates a visual Illusion within a<BR>volume no 
larger than (Rank + 3) feet by (Rank / 2 +<BR>2) feet by (Rank / 3 + 1) feet. 
The Illusion is fixed at<BR>casting, and may not be changed or moved with 
this<BR>spell. The workmanship is as if the Adept were an<BR>Artisan of one-half 
Rank.<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT color=#0000ff>I read this as the 
rank of the spell, not your rank with the Artisan skill. 'Rank' in a spell 
description is the caster's rank with the spell unless it clearly says 
otherwise.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT 
color=#0000ff>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=328484902-07102005><FONT 
color=#0000ff>Errol</DIV></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Pick me, I did it.  Mwahahahaaa!

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/pc/dqa_mt.php?dqa_id=000343

I don't know the exact session but it was during the WK war.

I can't remember who was scribe on the adventure and I'm not sure if I have a copy of any scribe
notes (a stolen computer and several moves have taken place since then).  Sue or Michael P may be
able to remember.

From memory...

They found out that the people were affected by a Necromantic-Alchemically created magical plague
that was transmitted via water.  The strength and efficacy of the magic diminished over time, a
bucket of water drawn from the river or a well in the main city would be safe to drink in a few
days time.  Boiling did not remove the taint.
Drinking or bathing in the water led to infection, physical contact led to secondary infection
which was not as bad as the original.
From memory a rank 4 or 5 healer could treat the symptoms but it required a Rank 7 or 8 Healer to
cure (and took several minutes and FT per person).

They tracked the source to the head of the river that fed the valley and water table, trashed the
big bad vampire, his minions, and destroyed his shaped item that created the plague and would have
raised its victims into an undead army under the vampires control.
Within a week the plague had been washed clear and the Healers started making positive progress
against re-infections.
Thousands died, tens of thousands lived thanks to the actions of the party and the many guild
healers who helped.

Cheers, Stephen.

Errol Cavit said:
> Afternoon all
>
> Our party is dealing with what appears to be a magical plague. Ian W said that he thought there
> was a party that encountered one in Cauldersfield a few years ago. Can anyone point us in the
> direction of what the bookworms will find in the Guild Library in the way of Scribe Notes etc.
>
> Thanks
> Darien/Errol


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I think Phaeton was involved, may have been scribe, but Keith would probably
remember the details,

Not too similar on the surface, but who knows...

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: 07 October 2005 16:03
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Magical plague scribe notes
> 
> Pick me, I did it.  Mwahahahaaa!
> 
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/pc/dqa_mt.php?dqa_id=000343
> 
> I don't know the exact session but it was during the WK war.
> 
> I can't remember who was scribe on the adventure and I'm not sure if I
> have a copy of any scribe
> notes (a stolen computer and several moves have taken place since then).
> Sue or Michael P may be
> able to remember.
> 
> From memory...
> 
> They found out that the people were affected by a Necromantic-Alchemically
> created magical plague
> that was transmitted via water.  The strength and efficacy of the magic
> diminished over time, a
> bucket of water drawn from the river or a well in the main city would be
> safe to drink in a few
> days time.  Boiling did not remove the taint.
> Drinking or bathing in the water led to infection, physical contact led to
> secondary infection
> which was not as bad as the original.
> From memory a rank 4 or 5 healer could treat the symptoms but it required
> a Rank 7 or 8 Healer to
> cure (and took several minutes and FT per person).
> 
> They tracked the source to the head of the river that fed the valley and
> water table, trashed the
> big bad vampire, his minions, and destroyed his shaped item that created
> the plague and would have
> raised its victims into an undead army under the vampires control.
> Within a week the plague had been washed clear and the Healers started
> making positive progress
> against re-infections.
> Thousands died, tens of thousands lived thanks to the actions of the party
> and the many guild
> healers who helped.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Errol Cavit said:
> > Afternoon all
> >
> > Our party is dealing with what appears to be a magical plague. Ian W
> said that he thought there
> > was a party that encountered one in Cauldersfield a few years ago. Can
> anyone point us in the
> > direction of what the bookworms will find in the Guild Library in the
> way of Scribe Notes etc.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Darien/Errol
> 
> 
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>From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>

>I believe that the issue some people have with playing pure fighters is 
>that they are combat
>specialists.  Out of combat they can't do much so they get bored.
>
>Other specialists have similar issues, the woods ranger "I'll sleep in a 
>bed when I'm dead" type
>sucks on a city/intrigue adventure, Water mages are crippled anywhere away 
>from water, Bards and
>Illusionists are crippled...

Illusionists are not crippled, ok so they have no save or die spell, thats 
just because they understand the meaning of subtlty, and are not adverse to 
hard work. Unlike other mages who seem to be lost when no-one can be found 
to wipe their ass for them.

As for Bards the only reason they are crippled is because they open their 
mouths and the party proceeds to cripple them.

Oh and I notice you didn't metion Earth mages who can not cast on horseback, 
on a boat, flying, and yet are one of the most sought after mages for 
adventuring partys.

TTFN
Michael Scott

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>From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, "\ Mark\ (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>
>
>I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" simple 
>illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the middle of 
>the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero craftsman (think 
>Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says the object appears 
>as an object  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to 
>rank this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest?  ... 
>arrggggghhh.

I know how you feel, for that reason I've ignored most of my generals, going 
for speacials, skills and weapons. Also I find myself at a loss to explain 
just what some of the illusion spells do. (Human the Fool, Illusionist, 
currently on 9th adventure)

>When you think about it the most useful spells in any college can often 
>come down to:
>
>1. Buffing spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour buffs, 
>lesser Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc.  - illusionist 
>get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special knowledge from 
>memory);
>2. Damage spells - illusionists get a very  underwhelming bolt

You forgot Nightmare Illusion, but as it just does nothing if they make 
their save as opposed to resist for half, it can be pretty sucky.

>3. Transport spells - nope
>4. Non damage based "Take down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?, 
>charm etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flash 
>of light.
>5. Healing spells - nope
>6. General Utility Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser 
>Enchantment, Cold Protection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and 
>Illusionary terrian - illusionists are reasonably well served here.

One thing to remember is that many of the spells work best in conjunction 
with each other.

>The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence 
>spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be 
>hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a 
>2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you got 
>hold of the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 per rank 
>vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give some 
>additional benefit/spice over the E&E version?

Interesting although remember Heroism can be a more or less permanant +21 to 
def and while you might jump at the chacne to get an extra 21 def and a 
point of protection from an Armours of Earth their is not always time. 
Having +21 to def while sleeping, bathing or sitting on the crapper isn't to 
be sneezed at.

TTFN
Michael Scott

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>From: Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>

>Message
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ)
>
>I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being "gimped" 
>has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are not creative with 
>their use of spells.
>
>No illusionists are gimped because they still can't do anything useful 
>after three adventure, in that time you can get a useful quickness or a 
>reasonable flight spell etc but not so with illusion.

After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and 
shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use on at least 
3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that 
meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse heal 
specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure palace, 150 
000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
So I don't consider myself to bad off.

TTFN
Michael Scott

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