>No illusionists are gimped because they still can't do anything useful
>after three adventure, in that time you can get a useful quickness or a
>reasonable flight spell etc but not so with illusion.

And Flash of Light and the General Knowledge Counter Spell suggest nothing
to you?
Both are cheap and work harmoniously together to be well, devastating.

FOL and GKCS to 12 at 20 MA will cost 14625 ep, a good ep award from a low
level game. Will take about 10 weeks of training time. If I decide to go
only to R10 in both it costs 10,313 ep and allows for some ranks in weapons
and some talent ranking. Because, the Illusion Talents are all good.

Gosh, a servicable area effect attack spell and the means to protect the
party from it in one adventure.
Has the meaning of the word 'nerfed' changed dramatically somehow?

William
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At 16:20 7/10/05, you wrote:
>I think Phaeton was involved, may have been scribe, but Keith would probably
>remember the details,
>
>Not too similar on the surface, but who knows...

No .. can't help you there I'm sorry ..

However, this may be the one where a Guild party was required to 
escort a bunch of Healers to combat a magical plague. Phaeton was one 
of the healers involved (but not a party member) and, according to 
his records, that occurred in the July 93 session. Unfortunately I 
cannot find any scribe notes lodged.

Keith


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From: "Michael Scott"

> After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and
> shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use on at
least
> 3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that
> meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
> Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse heal
> specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure palace, 150
> 000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
> So I don't consider myself to bad off.

But that isn't the common pattern for most three adventure characters.

William, FoL does no damage, Light doesn't hurt any one. GKCS ? who the f***
ranks counterspells other than namers.
Your being just a tiny bit creative, thinking beyond the immediate effect of
the spells to what happens for the next few pulses, I had Rowan my binder
learn a wall spell, after adventure one for much the same reason. A wall
does no damage, but it can block ranged magic and missile fire, protect a
flank or bottle up the enemy to make it easier to deal with. But not
everyone thinks like you and I do.

Helen


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Isil Eth ranks her counter spells. Stupid not to.

And being creative is what DQ in general, and Illusion in particular, is all
about. 

Good grief, and we let these people drive cars and breed?

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Helen Saggers
> Sent: 08 October 2005 13:36
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists
> 
> 
> From: "Michael Scott"
> 
> > After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and
> > shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use on at
> least
> > 3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that
> > meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
> > Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse
> heal
> > specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure palace,
> 150
> > 000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
> > So I don't consider myself to bad off.
> 
> But that isn't the common pattern for most three adventure characters.
> 
> William, FoL does no damage, Light doesn't hurt any one. GKCS ? who the
> f***
> ranks counterspells other than namers.
> Your being just a tiny bit creative, thinking beyond the immediate effect
> of
> the spells to what happens for the next few pulses, I had Rowan my binder
> learn a wall spell, after adventure one for much the same reason. A wall
> does no damage, but it can block ranged magic and missile fire, protect a
> flank or bottle up the enemy to make it easier to deal with. But not
> everyone thinks like you and I do.
> 
> Helen
> 
> 
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With Multiple Image we get the best stacking defense spell there is. At Ran=
k
12 it provides at guaranteed single target 75% defence.
 The only problem I usually have with being an illusionist is the little
stuff as Mark Simpson said. Believable chests, fires, flags, flowers. I
wouldn't mind a resist for half damage spell but feel that is a valid
weakness of the college.
 Like many colleges it take imagination to play a low/med illusionist and
only a little less to play a high one (But then I'm not sure, Gerald isn't
really a high yet)
 TTFN, Struan

 On 10/7/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do"
> simple illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the
> middle of the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero crafts=
man
> (think Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says the object
> appears as an object made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I
> have to rank this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest? ...
> arrggggghhh.
>  When you think about it the most useful spells in any college can often
> come down to:
>  1. Buffing spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour
> buffs, lesser Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc. -
> illusionist get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special
> knowledge from memory);
> 2. Damage spells - illusionists get a very underwhelming bolt
> 3. Transport spells - nope
> 4. Non damage based "Take down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?,
> charm etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flas=
h
> of light.
> 5. Healing spells - nope
> 6. General Utility Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser
> Enchantment, Cold Protection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and
> Illusionary terrian - illusionists are reasonably well served here.
>  The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence
> spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be
> hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a =
2+2
> per rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1 (once you got hol=
d
> of the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 per rank vs
> missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give some addition=
al
> benefit/spice over the E&E version?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]*On Behalf Of
> *Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> *Sent:* Friday, 7 October 2005 9:57 a.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Specialists
>
> Bards are rare PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists
> are crippled, why? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly
> focussed, or something? I think the college needs more work (some people =
say
> bring back the old Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken, they ca=
n
> be fixed.
>  As a player, I've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't
> play a low/medium illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c)
> transport. As a GM, Illusion (old or new) is really tough.
>  Andrew
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Martin Dickson
> *Sent:* Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44 a.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Specialists
>
> On 10/7/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
> >
> > ...Bards and Illusionists are crippled...
>
>
> Not often enough. Some are merely maimed.
>
>
>

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<div>With Multiple Image we get the best stacking defense spell there is. A=
t Rank 12 it provides at guaranteed single target 75% defence.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>The only problem I usually have with being an illusionist is the littl=
e stuff as Mark Simpson said. Believable chests, fires, flags, flowers. I w=
ouldn't mind a resist for half damage spell but feel that is a valid weakne=
ss of the college.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Like many colleges it take imagination to play a low/med illusionist a=
nd only a little less to play a high one (But then I'm not sure, Gerald isn=
't really a high yet)</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>TTFN, Struan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&=
gt; wrote:
</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I always got f=
rustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just &quot;do&quot; simple ill=
usions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the middle of the=
 floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero craftsman (think Home=
r Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says the object appears as a=
n object&nbsp; made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to=
 rank this spell above 10 just to have a &quot;real&quot; looking chest? &n=
bsp;... arrggggghhh.=20
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">When you think=
 about it the most useful spells in any college can often come down to:</fo=
nt></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">1.&nbsp;Buffin=
g spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour buffs,&nbsp;less=
er Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc.&nbsp; - illusionist =
get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special knowledge from memo=
ry);
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">2. Damage spel=
ls - illusionists get a very &nbsp;underwhelming bolt</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">3. Transport s=
pells - nope</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">4. Non damage =
based &quot;Take&nbsp;down&quot; spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?, c=
harm etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flash o=
f light.
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">5. Healing spe=
lls - nope</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">6. General Uti=
lity Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser Enchantment, Cold Pr=
otection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and Illusionary terrian - i=
llusionists are reasonably well served here.=20
</font></span></div>
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial"><font size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><span>Th=
e one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence spell. =
They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be hard to h=
it, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a 2+2 per ran=
k spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1 &nbsp;(once you got hold o=
f the&nbsp;slimey blighters it should easier to nail them)&nbsp;but 3 per r=
ank vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give some add=
itional benefit/spice over the E&amp;E version?
</span></font></font></font></div>
<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_106c7dca4732a2f9_1">
<div><span><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">-----Origi=
nal Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(wi=
ndow,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">d=
q-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
</a> [mailto:<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=
</a>]<b>On Behalf Of </b>Andrew Withy (DSL AK)<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, 7 Oc=
tober 2005 9:57=20
a.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,thi=
s)" href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><b=
r><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Specialists<br><br></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>Bards are rare=
 PCs in DQ. Illusionists are more common. If Illusionists are crippled, why=
? Presumably the college is not tough enough, or badly focussed, or somethi=
ng? I think the college needs more work (some people say bring back the old=
 Illusion college). If Illusionists are broken, they can be fixed.
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span></span></font>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>As a player, I=
've not found Illusion to be crippling, but then I don't play a low/medium =
illusionist. It's just not (a) blast; (b) boost; (c) transport. As a GM, Il=
lusion (old or new) is really tough.
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span></span></font>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>Andrew</span><=
/font></div>
<blockquote style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div></div>
<div lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=
=3D"2">-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> <a onclick=3D"return top.=
js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(w=
indow,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">=
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Dickson<br><b>Sent:</=
b>
 Friday, 7 October 2005 9:44 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a onclick=3D"return top.js=
.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"=
_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Specialists<br><br>=
</font>
</div>On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a o=
nclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:step=
henm@castle.pointclark.net" target=3D"_blank">stephenm@castle.pointclark.ne=
t</a>
&gt; wrote:=20
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">...Bards and Illusio=
nists are crippled...</blockquote>
<div><br>Not often enough.&nbsp; Some are merely maimed. <br>&nbsp;</div><b=
r>&nbsp;</div><br></blockquote></blockquote></span></div></blockquote></div=
><br>

------=_Part_18220_23830509.1128737031334--


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> After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and
> shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use
> on at least
> 3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that
> meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
> Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse heal
> specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure
> palace, 150
> 000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
> So I don't consider myself to bad off.

Dare we ask which loose GM is behind this little treasure trove?

Mandos
/s


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First you said:

> "The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good
> defence spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye,
> they should be hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence
> spell. What about a 2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close
> or only 1+1  (once you got hold of the slimey blighters it should
> easier to nail them) but 3 per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak
> their version of invis to give some additional benefit/spice over
> the E&E version?"

Then you said:

> It not about powergaming Mandos, thats a typically blinkered way of
> looking at any problem. Do you really think being able to cast a
> illusion of a real looking chest at rank 2 in the spell is too
> powerful Mandos? Do you think its a bad idea to actually encourage
> illusionists to cast illusions?

So basically you are asking for different things in different messages. Can
you clarify what you actually think is broken in Illusion instead of picking
a different reason each time you post.

Illusion is fine and does not need additional defence nor a better invis.

Creating a copy of a chest is also different from creating a chest from
scratch, a copy should be able to be made without to many problems and that
is a GM call as to how good it is. Creating one from scratch requires the
skill. All available as the college is written at the moment.

All up Illusion is not a tough college, never has been however anyone who
has played DQ for a while (and has at least half a brain) knows this when
they role up the character. New players should be informed by the GM helping
them role up the character.

"Not tough" however does not equate to not useful and frankly I am always
happy to see Kyran or Gerald (the two illusionists I see most often) along
on a game as they bring a lot to the party.

Mandos
/s


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