SubjectRe: [dq] Specialists
FromWilliam Dymock
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 02:38:13 +1300
>Congratulations you just got an E rating for being extremely over the top
>and your GM a J rating for being a loose cannon.

[Checks that flame mode is 'off']
This is the polite warning. Endeavour to be in full possession of the facts
before making future judgements.



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SubjectRe: [dq] Specialists
FromCosmo
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 06:36:34 +1300
William Dymock wrote:

>>Congratulations you just got an E rating for being extremely over the top
>>and your GM a J rating for being a loose cannon.
>>    
>>
>
>[Checks that flame mode is 'off']
>This is the polite warning. Endeavour to be in full possession of the facts
>before making future judgements.
>
>  
>

Well, based on the information represented so far, it's not an 
unreasonable, if unkind, reaction. 

However, directly comparing the level of arse-kickingness of a Three 
Adventure Illusionist with that collection of, one hopes mixed, 
blessings seems a bit unfair.  Regardless of when and where they were 
earned, the first three adventures worth of anything would feel a little 
light next to them.  In fact, at three adventures, an Adventurer should 
be just about capable of going into combat with soiling themselves 
(immediately), cast a few of their spells with some confidence that 
their brain isn't going to be propelled through both ears, and  not 
scream and faint  at the sight of  a Restorative.  It's about this level 
that a non-Mage is normally outstripping the rest as far as competence 
and dignity are concerned...

Of course, when my first character finished their fourth they were 
gifted with an amazing ability.  Life aspect.  Wheee.

<inscribes tiny circles in the air with upraised index finger>

Do these grapes taste funny to anyone?



ben


PS Was supposed to be a quick message.

PPS What was this thread about again?


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SubjectRe: [dq] Specialists
FromZane Mendoza
DateSun, 9 Oct 2005 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT)
It also does depend on the adventures the character
goes on, one would expect a character to be better off
going on say 1 low and 2 medium adventures compared to
a character going on 3 low adventures. 

Zane

PS: The original topic was Non-Mage's being 2nd class
citizen's then worked onto Bard's and Illusionists
being cripple's now onto this :)

--- Cosmo <cosmo@evilbadandwrong.com> wrote:

> William Dymock wrote:
> 
> >>Congratulations you just got an E rating for being
> extremely over the top
> >>and your GM a J rating for being a loose cannon.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >[Checks that flame mode is 'off']
> >This is the polite warning. Endeavour to be in full
> possession of the facts
> >before making future judgements.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> Well, based on the information represented so far,
> it's not an 
> unreasonable, if unkind, reaction. 
> 
> However, directly comparing the level of
> arse-kickingness of a Three 
> Adventure Illusionist with that collection of, one
> hopes mixed, 
> blessings seems a bit unfair.  Regardless of when
> and where they were 
> earned, the first three adventures worth of anything
> would feel a little 
> light next to them.  In fact, at three adventures,
> an Adventurer should 
> be just about capable of going into combat with
> soiling themselves 
> (immediately), cast a few of their spells with some
> confidence that 
> their brain isn't going to be propelled through both
> ears, and  not 
> scream and faint  at the sight of  a Restorative. 
> It's about this level 
> that a non-Mage is normally outstripping the rest as
> far as competence 
> and dignity are concerned...
> 
> Of course, when my first character finished their
> fourth they were 
> gifted with an amazing ability.  Life aspect. 
> Wheee.
> 
> <inscribes tiny circles in the air with upraised
> index finger>
> 
> Do these grapes taste funny to anyone?
> 
> 
> 
> ben
> 
> 
> PS Was supposed to be a quick message.
> 
> PPS What was this thread about again?
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify
> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 


"...SOmetimes the slower people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you win the race..."


	
		
__________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 
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SubjectRe: [dq] Specialists
FromJonathan Bean
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 10:50:14 +1300
> After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and
> shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use on at
> least
> 3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that
> meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
> Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse heal
> specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure palace, 150
> 000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
> So I don't consider myself to bad off.
> 
> TTFN
> Michael Scott

Keep this up for more than 8 sessions and you get to put a "goon" after the
"Engal", and start playing with me :-)

Oh and by the way you are clearly now a 0.4 E on the E scale as the future
looks good for you. If you do not keep this up then you will drop back to a
0.2 E and keep it up for 8 sessions then 0.5 E is within your grasp.

Engalton

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Michael Scott
> Sent: 7 October 2005 5:57 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >From: Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>
> 
> >Message
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz ; Mark (NZ)
> >
> >I dont think its fair to say the perception of illusionist's being
> "gimped"
> >has risen up simply because alot of illusionists are not creative with
> >their use of spells.
> >
> >No illusionists are gimped because they still can't do anything useful
> >after three adventure, in that time you can get a useful quickness or a
> >reasonable flight spell etc but not so with illusion.
> 
> After three adventures my illusionist had acquired a magical sword and
> shield both rkd to max, rk 8 Nightmare illusion which I have use on at
> least
> 3 occasions to save the party and take down the big bad. A write up that
> meant I cuold cast it at whatever rk I desired at the cost of willpower.
> Two wishes which gained me 10 NA 5 Vs En and regeneration 1 En/pulse heal
> specs as rk 10 Healer, a one fith share in a floating pleasure palace, 150
> 000sp in cash and roughly 45 000ep.
> So I don't consider myself to bad off.
> 
> TTFN
> Michael Scott
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @
> http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
> 
> 
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Subject[dq] NPC
FromJonathan Bean
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 10:57:07 +1300
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What do GMs and players think about a book of multi-game bad guys? 

Aim: To start to help reduce the episodic effect that multi GMs have on
characters in DQ.

 

*	Worshipers of the Wolf head.
*	Followers of Bali
*	Thieves of Sanctuary 
*	Illusionists of Seagate

 

Etc etc

Features:

All would have distinct makings so players could spot them

Small groups that move around many Duchy/Baronies/Kingdoms

Aims of the groups

 

That sort of idea.

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>What do GMs and players think about a book of
multi-game bad guys? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Aim: To start to help reduce the episodic =
effect that
multi GMs have on characters in DQ.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<ul style=3D'margin-top:0cm' type=3Ddisc>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Worshipers of the
     Wolf head.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Followers =
of <st1:place
     w:st=3D"on">Bali</st1:place><o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thieves =
of Sanctuary
     <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Illusionists of
     Seagate<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ul>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Etc etc<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Features:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>All would have distinct makings so players =
could spot
them<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Small groups that move around many =
Duchy/Baronies/Kingdoms<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Aims of the =
groups<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>That sort of =
idea.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

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lang=3DEN-NZ
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>TME - Its all about time</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Phone <st1:Street =
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Box
  35902</st1:address></st1:Street>, <st1:place =
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 <st1:PlaceType =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
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lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Mob 021 173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Free 0800 55 33 =
66</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Specialists
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 10:59:09 +1300



>First you said:

>> "The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good
>> defence spell. They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye,
>> they should be hard to hit, so why not give them a top line defence
>> spell. What about a 2+2 per rank spell which gives nothing in close
>> or only 1+1  (once you got hold of the slimey blighters it should
>> easier to nail them) but 3 per rank vs missiles? Also why not tweak
>> their version of invis to give some additional benefit/spice over
>> the E&E version?"

>Then you said:

>> It not about powergaming Mandos, thats a typically blinkered way of
>> looking at any problem. Do you really think being able to cast a
>> illusion of a real looking chest at rank 2 in the spell is too
>> powerful Mandos? Do you think its a bad idea to actually encourage
>> illusionists to cast illusions?

>So basically you are asking for different things in different messages. Can
>you clarify what you actually think is broken in Illusion instead of picking
>a different reason each time you post.

OMG no! Did I have two separate ideas in two different posts! I apologise profusely, I forgot you can only handle 1 idea at a time. Your attitude and the tenor of your posts only really deserves this sort of response.

The first quote you pulled was a few ideas off the top of my head in response to (I think it was Andrews) post about the generally perceived weaknesses of the college and requested suggestions for improving it. The second was a different post about the frustrations of using the low level illusion spells (caused by unnecessarily restrictive/complicated write-ups of the spells), recently echoed by Struan (Gerald). Perhaps you'll be responding in similar condescending tone to him?


>Illusion is fine and does not need additional defence nor a better invis.

>Creating a copy of a chest is also different from creating a chest from
>scratch, a copy should be able to be made without to many problems and that
>is a GM call as to how good it is. Creating one from scratch requires the
>skill. All available as the college is written at the moment.

This quote shows you don't even know how the college/spell works.

>All up Illusion is not a tough college, never has been however anyone who
>has played DQ for a while (and has at least half a brain) knows this when
>they role up the character. New players should be informed by the GM helping
>them role up the character.

>"Not tough" however does not equate to not useful and frankly I am always
>happy to see Kyran or Gerald (the two illusionists I see most often) along
>on a game as they bring a lot to the party.

See above.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromErrol Cavit
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 13:46:41 +1300
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Is the problem with "fires, flags, flowers" that they interact with the
natural environment (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can make
semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a practical way for an
Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick look at the college)?
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: Struan Judd [mailto:struan@scifi.geek.nz]
Sent: Saturday, 8 October 2005 15:04
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists


With Multiple Image we get the best stacking defense spell there is. At Rank
12 it provides at guaranteed single target 75% defence.
 
The only problem I usually have with being an illusionist is the little
stuff as Mark Simpson said. Believable chests, fires, flags, flowers. I
wouldn't mind a resist for half damage spell but feel that is a valid
weakness of the college. 
 
Like many colleges it take imagination to play a low/med illusionist and
only a little less to play a high one (But then I'm not sure, Gerald isn't
really a high yet)
 
TTFN, Struan

 
On 10/7/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz>  <
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> > wrote: 

I always got frustrated as an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" simple
illusions. If I want to do an illusion of a chest sitting in the middle of
the floor it would look like a chest made by a rank zero craftsman (think
Homer Simpson homemade quality), because the spell says the object appears
as an object  made by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to
rank this spell above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest?  ...
arrggggghhh. 
 
When you think about it the most useful spells in any college can often come
down to:
 
1. Buffing spells - Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour buffs,
lesser Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc.  - illusionist
get an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special knowledge from
memory); 
2. Damage spells - illusionists get a very  underwhelming bolt
3. Transport spells - nope
4. Non damage based "Take down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?,
charm etc.) - Maze spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flash
of light. 
5. Healing spells - nope
6. General Utility Spells - Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser
Enchantment, Cold Protection, Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and
Illusionary terrian - illusionists are reasonably well served here. 
 
The one area I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence spell.
They are meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be hard to
hit, so why not give them a top line defence spell. What about a 2+2 per
rank spell which gives nothing in close or only 1+1  (once you got hold of
the slimey blighters it should easier to nail them) but 3 per rank vs
missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give some additional
benefit/spice over the E&E version? 

 

 


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=50551200-10102005>Is the problem with 
"<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>fires, flags, flowers" that they interact 
with the natural environment (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can make 
semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a practical way for an Illusionist 
to re-create them (based on a quick look at the 
college)?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=50551200-10102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=50551200-10102005>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=50551200-10102005>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT size=2>-----Original 
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Struan Judd 
  [mailto:struan@scifi.geek.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 8 October 2005 
  15:04<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] 
  Specialists<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>With Multiple Image we get the best stacking defense spell there is. At 
  Rank 12 it provides at guaranteed single target 75% defence.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The only problem I usually have with being an illusionist is the little 
  stuff as Mark Simpson said. Believable chests, fires, flags, flowers. I 
  wouldn't mind a resist for half damage spell but feel that is a valid weakness 
  of the college. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Like many colleges it take imagination to play a low/med illusionist and 
  only a little less to play a high one (But then I'm not sure, Gerald isn't 
  really a high yet)</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>TTFN, Struan<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 10/7/05, <B class=gmail_sendername><A 
  href="mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A></B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A>&gt; wrote: 
  </SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I always got frustrated as 
    an illusionist that you couldnt just "do" simple illusions. If I want to do 
    an illusion of a chest sitting in the middle of the floor it would look like 
    a chest made by a rank zero craftsman (think Homer Simpson homemade 
    quality), because the spell says the object appears as an object&nbsp; made 
    by a rank/3 craftsman or something like that. I have to rank this spell 
    above 10 just to have a "real" looking chest? &nbsp;... arrggggghhh. 
    </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>When you think about it the 
    most useful spells in any college can often come down 
to:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>1.&nbsp;Buffing spells - 
    Stat buffs, Defence buffs, weapon buffs, armour buffs,&nbsp;lesser 
    Enchantment, cold protection, vapour breathing etc.&nbsp; - illusionist get 
    an underpowered defence spell (1+1 per rank special knowledge from memory); 
    </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>2. Damage spells - 
    illusionists get a very &nbsp;underwhelming bolt</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>3. Transport spells - 
    nope</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>4. Non damage based 
    "Take&nbsp;down" spells (eg sleep, mental attack, agony?, charm etc.) - Maze 
    spell - not bad but not entirely amazing either - Flash of light. 
    </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>5. Healing spells - 
    nope</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>6. General Utility Spells - 
    Enhance enchantment, Mind Speech, Lesser Enchantment, Cold Protection, 
    Feather fall etc. - Disguise Illusion and Illusionary terrian - illusionists 
    are reasonably well served here. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN>The one area 
    I'd focus on first is giving Illusionists a good defence spell. They are 
    meant to be masters of deceiving the eye, they should be hard to hit, so why 
    not give them a top line defence spell. What about a 2+2 per rank spell 
    which gives nothing in close or only 1+1 &nbsp;(once you got hold of 
    the&nbsp;slimey blighters it should easier to nail them)&nbsp;but 3 per rank 
    vs missiles? Also why not tweak their version of invis to give some 
    additional benefit/spice over the E&amp;E version? 
    </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_106c7dca4732a2f9_1>
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=Arial 
      color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromStruan Judd
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 14:09:20 +1300
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On 10/10/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Is the problem with "fires, flags, flowers" that they interact with the
> natural environment (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can make
> semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a practical way for an
> Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick look at the college)?
>  Cheers
> Errol
>

Pretty much.

* Flowers are "impossible" as can't do smells (except possibly as part of
Illusionary Food)
* Fires are "impossible" because of their semi-random moving nature. (The
not casting light thing I can live with but that can be a big flaw)
* Flags have the moving problem too, as well as the being consistent with
the environment.

So I suppose at the basic level I feel the college is missing smell
illusions (usually needed to be added onto the visual ones) and some way of
having constrained, semi random motion which doesn't require active
concentration on the part of the Adept.

I'm actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally won't reac=
t
to changes in it environment (illusory flags don't change direction when th=
e
wind does)

TTFN, Struan.

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<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/10/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sen=
dername">Errol Cavit</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz">tmp000=
2@tollnz.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">







<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span>Is the problem with=20
&quot;<font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3">fires, flags, flowers&quot;=
 that they interact=20
with the natural environment (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can =
make=20
semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a practical way for an Illusion=
ist=20
to re-create them (based on a quick look at the=20
college)?</font></span></font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span></span></font>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span>Cheers</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span>Errol</span></font></div></block=
quote></div><br>
Pretty much.<br>
<br>
* Flowers are &quot;impossible&quot; as can't do smells (except possibly as=
 part of Illusionary Food)<br>
* Fires are &quot;impossible&quot; because of their semi-random moving natu=
re.
(The not casting light thing I can live with but that can be a big flaw)<br=
>
* Flags have the moving problem too, as well as the being consistent with t=
he environment.<br>
<br>
So I suppose at the basic level I feel the college is missing smell
illusions (usually needed to be added onto the visual ones) and some
way of having constrained, semi random motion which doesn't require
active concentration on the part of the Adept.<br>
<br>
I'm actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally won't
react to changes in it environment (illusory flags don't change
direction when the wind does)<br>
<br>
TTFN, Struan.<br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 14:13:54 +1300
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I agree that these "extra" senses would be good to have. However, the
way that I thought of to add it was not accepted, as it was too
confusing for people. See synaesthasia posts from 1995. In brief, you
got one "cute" extra sense - smell, animation, etc. in your illusion
every 4 ranks (pick your sense at casting). Not that my idea was
expressed that clearly.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Struan Judd
	Sent: Monday, 10 October 2005 2:09 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
=09
=09


	On 10/10/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:=20

		Is the problem with "fires, flags, flowers" that they
interact with the natural environment (e.g. wind changes their
appearance, they can make semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a
practical way for an Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick
look at the college)?
		=20
		Cheers
		Errol


	Pretty much.
=09
	* Flowers are "impossible" as can't do smells (except possibly
as part of Illusionary Food)
	* Fires are "impossible" because of their semi-random moving
nature. (The not casting light thing I can live with but that can be a
big flaw)
	* Flags have the moving problem too, as well as the being
consistent with the environment.
=09
	So I suppose at the basic level I feel the college is missing
smell illusions (usually needed to be added onto the visual ones) and
some way of having constrained, semi random motion which doesn't require
active concentration on the part of the Adept.
=09
	I'm actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally
won't react to changes in it environment (illusory flags don't change
direction when the wind does)
=09
	TTFN, Struan.
=09


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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D648021101-10102005>I=20
agree that these "extra" senses would be good to have. However, the way =
that I=20
thought of to add it was not accepted, as it was too confusing for =
people. See=20
synaesthasia posts from 1995. In brief, you got one "cute" extra sense - =
smell,=20
animation, etc. in your illusion every 4 ranks (pick your sense at =
casting). Not=20
that my idea was expressed that clearly.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D648021101-10102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D648021101-10102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Struan Judd<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 10 October 2005 2:09=20
  p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Illusion (was=20
  Specialists)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 10/10/05, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Errol=20
  Cavit</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz">tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz</A>&gt; =
wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN>Is the problem with "<FONT=20
    face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>fires, flags, flowers" that they =
interact with=20
    the natural environment (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they =
can make=20
    semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't a practical way for an=20
    Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick look at the=20
    college)?</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2><SPAN>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>Pretty=20
  much.<BR><BR>* Flowers are "impossible" as can't do smells (except =
possibly as=20
  part of Illusionary Food)<BR>* Fires are "impossible" because of their =

  semi-random moving nature. (The not casting light thing I can live =
with but=20
  that can be a big flaw)<BR>* Flags have the moving problem too, as =
well as the=20
  being consistent with the environment.<BR><BR>So I suppose at the =
basic level=20
  I feel the college is missing smell illusions (usually needed to be =
added onto=20
  the visual ones) and some way of having constrained, semi random =
motion which=20
  doesn't require active concentration on the part of the =
Adept.<BR><BR>I'm=20
  actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally won't =
react to=20
  changes in it environment (illusory flags don't change direction when =
the wind=20
  does)<BR><BR>TTFN, Struan.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromJonathan Bean
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 14:38:02 +1300
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My only objection to Illusion Collage is not about any one spell, but a
basic problem with communications.

 

When I am GM'ing I find I can not use it.

This is mainly because;

 

Players have faith in what the GM is saying or describing and this works
against this.

Players are already attempting to imagine an environment which is hard
enough to get across small details without having unexpected areas.

One of the areas that Illusionists seem to spend effort on is; the other
players.

It seems it often deprives those players of the chance of role-playing. 

 

I guess I am not making myself clear - no mater.

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 

 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My only objection to Illusion =
Collage is
not about any one spell, but a basic problem with =
communications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>When I am GM&#8217;ing I find I can =
not
use it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is mainly =
because;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Players have faith in what the GM =
is
saying or describing and this works against =
this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Players are already attempting to =
imagine
an environment which is hard enough to get across small details without =
having
unexpected areas.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One of the areas that Illusionists =
seem to
spend effort on is; the other players.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It seems it often deprives those =
players
of the chance of role-playing. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I guess I am not making myself =
clear &#8211;
no mater.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about =
time</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone =
<st1:Street
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box =
35902</st1:address></st1:Street>,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
 w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 =
173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free =
0800 55 33
66<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromJonathan Bean
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 15:07:23 +1300
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Jonathan Wrote:

My only objection to Illusion Collage is not about any one spell, but a
basic problem with communications.

When I am GM'ing I find I can not use it.

This is mainly because;

Players have faith in what the GM is saying or describing and this works
against this.

Struan wrote:

 

I find the only way I can get around this, is the same way I get around
false walls, snares and traps, social or culture inconsistencies.

I try as a GM to also be rolling dice. Sometimes, it's just a "nervous"
twitch sort of thing. And sometimes it's to see when the perceptive and/or
appropriate character notices the inconsistency in the description which the
player is honor bound to try and accept as correct from the GM. Of course if
they're actively looking for something then they player gets to roll. But
somethings are just subtly "wrong" and it really, really, really hard to
convey this subtle wrongness in a GM description.

 

But the problem is that the inconsistencies blur in with the players'
perception that "ahh that's ok its just poor GM'ing" and this is often not
the case. This is often the case it seems more with DQ than other RPGs I
think because we have a high turn over of GMs and Players on a 12 week cycle
or games. Players are not able to build that faith in the GM in time to be
able to make a clear judgment call of what is right and - that over there is
just wrong, not poor GM'ing.

 

 

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 

  _____  

From: scifigeeknz@gmail.com [mailto:scifigeeknz@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
Struan Judd
Sent: 10 October 2005 2:56 p.m.
To: jonathan@tme.co.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)

 

Nope that's plenty clear.

And the interesting/horrid thing is that none of these issues can really be
resolved by a college tweak/rewrite.

On 10/10/05, Jonathan Bean < jonathan@tme.co.nz <mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz>
> wrote:

My only objection to Illusion Collage is not about any one spell, but a
basic problem with communications.

When I am GM'ing I find I can not use it.

This is mainly because;

Players have faith in what the GM is saying or describing and this works
against this.

I find the only way I can get around this, is the same way I get around
false walls, snares and traps, social or culture inconsistencies.

I try as a GM to also be rolling dice. Sometimes, it's just a "nervous"
twitch sort of thing. And sometimes it's to see when the perceptive and/or
appropriate character notices the inconsistency in the description which the
player is honor bound to try and accept as correct from the GM. Of course if
they're actively looking for something then they player gets to roll. But
somethings are just subtly "wrong" and it really, really, really hard to
convey this subtle wrongness in a GM description.

Illusions are a very specific example fo "subtle wrongness"

Players are already attempting to imagine an environment which is hard
enough to get across small details without having unexpected areas.

One of the areas that Illusionists seem to spend effort on is; the other
players.

It seems it often deprives those players of the chance of role-playing.

Or it can provide the player with greater opportunities for roleplaying too.
Disguise is only visual as in invisibility. Innocence generally can be
broken in a number of ways.

No-one seems to trust Gerald's cooking (or pocket snacks) because he is an
Illusionist with adequate ranks in "Illusory Food", despite he now also has
adequate ranks in Cook.
But that is roleplaying when the other PC's have to weigh up "yummy Cream
bun" with "yummy cream bun (apple)"


TTFN, Struan


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>My only objection to Illusion Collage is not about any =
one
spell, but a basic problem with =
communications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>When I am GM'ing I find I can not use =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>This is mainly because;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Players have faith in what the GM is saying or =
describing and
this works against this.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Struan wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I find the only way I can get around this, is the same way I get =
around
false walls, snares and traps, social or culture inconsistencies.<br>
<br>
I try as a GM to also be rolling dice. Sometimes, it's just a =
&quot;nervous&quot;
twitch sort of thing. And sometimes it's to see when the perceptive =
and/or
appropriate character notices the inconsistency in the description which =
the
player is honor bound to try and accept as correct from the GM. Of =
course if
they're actively looking for something then they player gets to roll. =
But
somethings are just subtly &quot;wrong&quot; and it really, really, =
really hard
to convey this subtle wrongness in a GM =
description.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But the problem is that the =
inconsistencies
blur in with the players&#8217; perception that &#8220;ahh that&#8217;s =
ok its
just poor GM&#8217;ing&#8221; and this is often not the case. This is =
often the
case it seems more with DQ than other RPGs I think because we have a =
high turn
over of GMs and Players on a 12 week cycle or games. Players are not =
able to
build that faith in the GM in time to be able to make a clear judgment =
call of
what is right and &#8211; that over there is just wrong, not poor =
GM&#8217;ing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about =
time</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone =
<st1:Street
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box =
35902</st1:address></st1:Street>,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
 w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 =
173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free =
0800 55 33
66</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
scifigeeknz@gmail.com
[mailto:scifigeeknz@gmail.com] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Struan
Judd<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 10 October 2005 =
2:56 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">jonathan@tme.co.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Illusion (was
Specialists)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Nope that's =
plenty clear.<br>
<br>
And the interesting/horrid thing is that none of these issues can really =
be
resolved by a college tweak/rewrite.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 10/10/05, <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Jonathan
Bean</span></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz"> =
jonathan@tme.co.nz</a>&gt;
wrote:</span></font></span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>My only objection to Illusion Collage is not about any =
one
spell, but a basic problem with =
communications.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>When I am GM'ing I find I can not use =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>This is mainly because;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Players have faith in what the GM is saying or =
describing and
this works against this.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I find the only way I can get around this, is the same way I get =
around
false walls, snares and traps, social or culture inconsistencies.<br>
<br>
I try as a GM to also be rolling dice. Sometimes, it's just a =
&quot;nervous&quot;
twitch sort of thing. And sometimes it's to see when the perceptive =
and/or
appropriate character notices the inconsistency in the description which =
the
player is honor bound to try and accept as correct from the GM. Of =
course if
they're actively looking for something then they player gets to roll. =
But
somethings are just subtly &quot;wrong&quot; and it really, really, =
really hard
to convey this subtle wrongness in a GM description.<br>
<br>
Illusions are a very specific example fo &quot;subtle =
wrongness&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>Players are already attempting to imagine an =
environment
which is hard enough to get across small details without having =
unexpected
areas.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>One of the areas that Illusionists seem to spend =
effort on
is; the other players.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>It seems it often deprives those players of the chance =
of
role-playing.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Or it can provide the player with greater opportunities for =
roleplaying
too. Disguise is only visual as in invisibility. Innocence generally can =
be
broken in a number of ways.<br>
<br>
No-one seems to trust Gerald's cooking (or pocket snacks) because he is =
an
Illusionist with adequate ranks in &quot;Illusory Food&quot;, despite he =
now
also has adequate ranks in Cook.<br>
But that is roleplaying when the other PC's have to weigh up &quot;yummy =
Cream
bun&quot; with &quot;yummy cream bun =
(apple)&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
TTFN, Struan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</body>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 16:48:45 +1300 (NZDT)
How "real" should Illusions be able to be?

If they are too real then it can become unplayable as there is no reason for anyone to suspect
that it is not real, used cleverly it effectively becomes unresistable magic.

As Jono mentioned it also becomes un-GM-able as the players should be given no reason to suspect
an Illusion.  This all leads to the old silliness of players disbelieving (or DA &
Counterspelling) everything they see just in case it is an illusion.  And then important NPCs do
the same thing and Illusions become pointless timewasters.

As a GM you need to be very careful using even flawed Illusions - as Jono said, the players assume
it is just human error not a deliberate mistake.
Your flaws need to be more blatant, or you need to drop blatant hints like "there's something odd
about the room" so they know to investigate further.


Cheers, Stephen.

Struan Judd said:
> On 10/10/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> Is the problem with "fires, flags, flowers" that they interact with the natural environment
>> (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can make semi-random noises) and there doesn't isn't
>> a practical way for an Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick look at the college)?
>>  Cheers
>> Errol
>>
>
> Pretty much.
>
> * Flowers are "impossible" as can't do smells (except possibly as part of Illusionary Food)
> * Fires are "impossible" because of their semi-random moving nature. (The not casting light
> thing I can live with but that can be a big flaw) * Flags have the moving problem too, as well
> as the being consistent with the environment.
>
> So I suppose at the basic level I feel the college is missing smell illusions (usually needed to
> be added onto the visual ones) and some way of having constrained, semi random motion which
> doesn't require active concentration on the part of the Adept.
>
> I'm actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally won't react to changes in it
> environment (illusory flags don't change direction when the wind does)
>
> TTFN, Struan.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Illusion (was Specialists)
Fromian at dawn haven
DateMon, 10 Oct 2005 18:39:11 +1300


Absolutely agree with both of you.

If it is important for the PCs to notice something then the GM has to 'give
it' to them (subtly first). It is like using a Perception check to determine
if they see the important clue: use the PC check to determine who sees it
first and the amount of additional information you give them.

Not always easy. But hell, start using illusions and watch the paranoia
levels rise. Easy way to slow the party down if you need to. 

Hmm, may try that this week, as the buggers have finally left the guild and
are making progress...


On the issue of the power rating for Illusionist, I can understand and
sympathise. The old illusion was very powerful (in the wrong hands) and very
open to interpretation - I saw at least one guild member die due a
blue-on-blue illusion (solid track in a swamp - ggglup!)

IMO The difficulty is to get away from binary effects. An illusion either
works completely or it doesn't (seems banal as I write it). This is cool in
a novel, difficult in a roleplaying environment. My question would be "what
changes and additional power up abilities would you want, that are
consistent with illusions?" Illusory wounds seem naff, although the ability
to use them to render unconscious (At 0 END, when the body thinks it should
be unconscious, it is) feels right. 

I like the idea of a flag that ripples - but the observant would notice that
the ripple pattern repeats every 16 seconds.

:-D

Ian

 

> 
> As Jono mentioned it also becomes un-GM-able as the players should be
> given no reason to suspect
> an Illusion.  This all leads to the old silliness of players disbelieving
> (or DA &
> Counterspelling) everything they see just in case it is an illusion.  And
> then important NPCs do
> the same thing and Illusions become pointless timewasters.
> 
> As a GM you need to be very careful using even flawed Illusions - as Jono
> said, the players assume
> it is just human error not a deliberate mistake.
> Your flaws need to be more blatant, or you need to drop blatant hints like
> "there's something odd
> about the room" so they know to investigate further.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Struan Judd said:
> > On 10/10/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is the problem with "fires, flags, flowers" that they interact with the
> natural environment
> >> (e.g. wind changes their appearance, they can make semi-random noises)
> and there doesn't isn't
> >> a practical way for an Illusionist to re-create them (based on a quick
> look at the college)?
> >>  Cheers
> >> Errol
> >>
> >
> > Pretty much.
> >
> > * Flowers are "impossible" as can't do smells (except possibly as part
> of Illusionary Food)
> > * Fires are "impossible" because of their semi-random moving nature.
> (The not casting light
> > thing I can live with but that can be a big flaw) * Flags have the
> moving problem too, as well
> > as the being consistent with the environment.
> >
> > So I suppose at the basic level I feel the college is missing smell
> illusions (usually needed to
> > be added onto the visual ones) and some way of having constrained, semi
> random motion which
> > doesn't require active concentration on the part of the Adept.
> >
> > I'm actually fine with the situation where an illusion generally won't
> react to changes in it
> > environment (illusory flags don't change direction when the wind does)
> >
> > TTFN, Struan.
> 
> 
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