> What do GMs and players think about a book of multi-game bad guys?
> Aim: To start to help reduce the episodic effect that multi GMs have on
characters in DQ.

Tis the main Goal of the Wiki is it not, hence the NPC and Villain
catagories :-)

Mandos
/s


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> >So basically you are asking for different things in different
> messages. Can you clarify what you actually think is broken in Illusion
> instead of picking a different reason each time you post.
>
> OMG no! Did I have two separate ideas in two different posts! I
> apologise profusely, I forgot you can only handle 1 idea at a
> time. Your attitude and the tenor of your posts only really
> deserves this sort of response.

Ahhh personal insults...good comeback. But seriously would you be able to
clarify the actual issues you see as broken in Illusion?

I would actually like to know what is percieved as being wrong, currently
you are not giving a clear picture of what these issues are.

We can continue the route of you abusing me if you like but I think it would
be god to get a number of illusionists perspectives rather than relying only
on Struan who is clearly stating his issues.

Mandos
/s


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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>
Date: Oct 7, 2005 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters
To: martin.dickson@gmail.com


Rather than Restricting Warrior to fighters why not create a couple of
skills or talentsjust for non mages that are lost (like the MR) if the
charicter decides to convert to a mage. If one intends to become a mage fro=
m
the start then they obviously woun't bother ranking these, but it would add
an advantage to those who stick with being a fighter.

Sugestions for benifts

Increased MR
Being able to speacialize in a weapon Ie add +1 to max rank of favorate
combo (if you include sheild this would raise def).
Increased PC
Increased Stats
Less chance of stunning
Grunt speak Language skill
Increased TMR
Hard Bastard bonus vs Poisons, elements, + to NA
Reaction mods
Perhaps a +1 level bonus on certain skills or a natural Greater type bonus
to weapons skils and MR say +1/4 rks stacks with Greater Enchantment

Something less combat orientated whould be cool although why fighters could
do it and mages couldn't eliminates most ideas.

Any thoughts?

TTFN
Michael Scott

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

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<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br><span class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Michael Scott</b> &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: Oct 7,=
 2005 6:23 PM
<br>Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:martin.dick=
son@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a><br><br></span><br>Rather than R=
estricting Warrior to fighters why not create a couple of<br>skills or tale=
ntsjust for non mages that are lost (like the MR) if the
<br>charicter decides to convert to a mage. If one intends to become a mage=
 from<br>the start then they obviously woun't bother ranking these, but it =
would add<br>an advantage to those who stick with being a fighter.<br><br>
Sugestions for benifts<br><br>Increased MR<br>Being able to speacialize in =
a weapon Ie add +1 to max rank of favorate<br>combo (if you include sheild =
this would raise def).<br>Increased PC<br>Increased Stats<br>Less chance of=
 stunning
<br>Grunt speak Language skill<br>Increased TMR<br>Hard Bastard bonus vs Po=
isons, elements, + to NA<br>Reaction mods<br>Perhaps a +1 level bonus on ce=
rtain skills or a natural Greater type bonus<br>to weapons skils and MR say=
 +1/4 rks stacks with Greater Enchantment
<br><br>Something less combat orientated whould be cool although why fighte=
rs could<br>do it and mages couldn't eliminates most ideas.<br><br>Any thou=
ghts?<br><br>TTFN<br>Michael Scott<br><br>_________________________________=
________________________________
<br>Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FR=
EE!<br><a href=3D"http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/dire=
ct/01/">http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/</a>
<br><br>

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Oct 7, 2005 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters
To: Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>

On 10/7/05, Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Rather than Restricting Warrior to fighters why not create a couple of
> skills or talentsjust for non mages...


Is anyone seriously considering a Warrior / Mage restriction?

To me the the foundation of DQ is few limits on what a character can learn
-- the one hard(ish) limit being a single College... and there are Guild
beats a-plenty that bend (or outright break) that rule too.

But that said, I'm pretty keen on there being some sort of benefit for
non-mages...

that are lost (like the MR) if the charicter decides to convert to a mage..=
.


Problem being that this (effectively) makes them a college... mmm... maybe
not a big problem... OK... some GM will give them to a Mage as treasure
(guess there's no stopping that anyway)... and we probably don't want every
Tom-Dick-and-Harry guard, mercenary or brigand having them...

And that's the real rub -- they have to be learned / practiced abilities
with are exclusive with colleges... which makes them basically magic
talents... mmm...

Sugestions for benifts


But yes, good ideas... although hard to see (easy) justifications for why
combat-interested mage typecannot learn them / keep them... and as above,
some GM will give them out...

Something less combat orientated whould be cool although why fighters could
> do it and mages couldn't eliminates most ideas.


There are Guild PCs who are fighter first / mage second, and its hard to se=
e
why having an ep sink like a College means you can't (given the appropriate
time and EP) learn to be as effective in combat as the non-mage.

Helen made the point that both warrior and assassin would be learnt by
special-ops types... I guess I figure that if magic was available they'd
learn that too.

Cheers,
Martin

PS: Your mail only went to me (I think) rather than DQ. Not sure if that's
what you intended. :-)

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<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br><span class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Martin Dickson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: O=
ct 7, 2005 6:45 PM
<br>Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters<br>To: Michael Scott &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</a>&gt;<br><br></span=
><span class=3D"q">On 10/7/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Michael Scott<=
/b>
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D=
"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:</span><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin=
: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<span class=3D"q">
<br>Rather than Restricting Warrior to fighters why not create a couple of<=
br></span>skills or talentsjust for non mages...</blockquote><div><br>
Is anyone seriously considering a Warrior / Mage restriction?<br>
<br>
To me the the foundation of DQ is few limits on what a character can
learn -- the one hard(ish) limit being a single College... and there
are Guild beats a-plenty that bend (or outright break) that rule too.<br>
<br>
But that said, I'm pretty keen on there being some sort of benefit for non-=
mages...<br>
&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px=
 solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> =
that are lost (like the MR) if the charicter decides to convert to a mage..=
.</blockquote>

<div><br>
Problem being that this (effectively) makes them a college... mmm...
maybe not a big problem... OK... some GM will give them to a Mage as
treasure (guess there's no stopping that anyway)... and we probably
don't want every Tom-Dick-and-Harry guard, mercenary or brigand having
them...<br>
<br>
And that's the real rub -- they have to be learned / practiced
abilities with are exclusive with colleges... which makes them
basically magic talents...&nbsp; mmm...<br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Sugestions =
for benifts</blockquote><div><br>
But yes, good ideas...&nbsp; although hard to see (easy) justifications
for why combat-interested mage typecannot learn them / keep them... and
as above, some GM will give them out...<br>
</div><span class=3D"q"><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">Something less combat orientated whould be cool although why fig=
hters could
<br>do it and mages couldn't eliminates most ideas.
</blockquote></span><div><br>
There are Guild PCs who are fighter first / mage second, and its hard
to see why having an ep sink like a College means you can't (given the
appropriate time and EP) learn to be as effective in combat as the
non-mage.<br>
<br>
Helen made the point that both warrior and assassin would be learnt by
special-ops types... I guess I figure that if magic was available
they'd learn that too.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
PS: Your mail only went to me (I think) rather than DQ. Not sure if that's =
what you intended. :-)<br>
</div></div><br>


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The Wiki is good but it's not used at game time - hence the need for a book.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: 12 October 2005 1:11 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] NPC
> 
> > What do GMs and players think about a book of multi-game bad guys?
> > Aim: To start to help reduce the episodic effect that multi GMs have on
> characters in DQ.
> 
> Tis the main Goal of the Wiki is it not, hence the NPC and Villain
> catagories :-)
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Perhaps every few months a compilation of NPCs from the Wiki could be distributed via PDF. The Wiki is still the best place to create and maintain such a list.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 8:45 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] NPC


The Wiki is good but it's not used at game time - hence the need for a book.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf 
> Of Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: 12 October 2005 1:11 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] NPC
> 
> > What do GMs and players think about a book of multi-game bad guys?
> > Aim: To start to help reduce the episodic effect that multi GMs have 
> > on
> characters in DQ.
> 
> Tis the main Goal of the Wiki is it not, hence the NPC and Villain 
> catagories :-)
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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DQ adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This
is DQ (or our campaign).
=20
As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills,
or a college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction.
Restrictions and limitations are part of what shape a character.
Characters without limitations are generally more boring - as found on
high game, where everyone can do most stuff competantly. (Good on TDP
for Rank 1 horsemanship after 40? adventures). Having no college is just
an extreme limitation, along with MD 5 meaning no weapons.
=20
If you don't want the limitation, take a college.
=20
Andrew

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>DQ=20
adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This is =
DQ (or=20
our campaign).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>As a=20
character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or a =
college.=20
Each of these are a character-choice restriction. Restrictions and =
limitations=20
are part of what shape a character. Characters without limitations are =
generally=20
more boring - as found on high game, where everyone can do most stuff=20
competantly. (Good on TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship after 40? adventures). =
Having=20
no college is just an extreme limitation, along with MD 5 meaning no=20
weapons.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>If you=20
don't want the limitation, take a college.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D128444919-11102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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Hmmmm, so Struan is "clearly stating his issues" but im not? Yet as I recall Struan said "I have the same furstration/problem's with simple illusions as set out by Mark ...". 

Nom I won't waste anymore time trying to explain the issues to you.



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 1:18 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specialists



> >So basically you are asking for different things in different
> messages. Can you clarify what you actually think is broken in Illusion
> instead of picking a different reason each time you post.
>
> OMG no! Did I have two separate ideas in two different posts! I
> apologise profusely, I forgot you can only handle 1 idea at a
> time. Your attitude and the tenor of your posts only really
> deserves this sort of response.

Ahhh personal insults...good comeback. But seriously would you be able to
clarify the actual issues you see as broken in Illusion?

I would actually like to know what is percieved as being wrong, currently
you are not giving a clear picture of what these issues are.

We can continue the route of you abusing me if you like but I think it would
be god to get a number of illusionists perspectives rather than relying only
on Struan who is clearly stating his issues.

Mandos
/s


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If one can print pages from the Wiki, (and scribble notes on them, and then
upload the changes after the NPC has interacted with another party) and one
has to print a PDF (which then after the game will be out of date with the
Wiki)... err... so what's wrong with the wiki again? :-)

On 10/12/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Perhaps every few months a compilation of NPCs from the Wiki could be
> distributed via PDF. The Wiki is still the best place to create and maint=
ain
> such a list.
>
>
>

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If one can print pages from the Wiki, (and scribble notes on them, and
then upload the changes after the NPC has interacted with another
party) and one has to print a PDF (which then after the game will be
out of date with the Wiki)... err... so what's wrong with the wiki
again?&nbsp; :-)<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/12/05, <b cl=
ass=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:An=
drewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); =
margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Perhaps
every few months a compilation of NPCs from the Wiki could be
distributed via PDF. The Wiki is still the best place to create and
maintain such a list.<br><br><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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On 10/12/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Hmmmm, so Struan is "clearly stating his issues" but im not? Yet as I
> recall Struan said "I have the same furstration/problem's with simple
> illusions as set out by Mark ...".


And then I proceeded to enumerate them.

Anyway, can we please try to have each message expand or respond to the
topic rather than to the person.

A good trick I find with list based emails is that if you find your self
writing single person "you"'s it might be time to take a break and
reformulate your reply to the list or send the reply just to the person the
you refers too.

Anyway, back to topic.

Whilst there are some small issues with illusion they don't render the
college unplayable by any means.

TTFN, Struan.

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<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10/12/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sen=
dername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz=
</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.ne=
t.nz</a>
&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1=
px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"=
>Hmmmm,
so Struan is &quot;clearly stating his issues&quot; but im not? Yet as I re=
call
Struan said &quot;I have the same furstration/problem's with simple
illusions as set out by Mark ...&quot;.</blockquote><div><br>
And then I proceeded to enumerate them. <br>
</div><br></div>Anyway, can we please try to have each message expand or re=
spond to the topic rather than to the person.<br>
<br>
A good trick I find with list based emails is that if you find your
self writing single person &quot;you&quot;'s it might be time to take a bre=
ak and
reformulate your reply to the list or send the reply just to the person
the you refers too.<br>
<br>
Anyway, back to topic.<br>
<br>
Whilst there are some small issues with illusion they don't render the coll=
ege unplayable by any means.<br>
<br>
TTFN, Struan.<br>

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Andrew Withy said:

 

>DQ adventurer characters are naturally mage/fighter/skill polymaths. This
is DQ (or our campaign).

 

I think it's a results of Rules not the campaign and the campaign has just
worked with what we have already had.

 

>As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or
a college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. Restrictions
and limitations are part of what shape a character. 

 

I think these are again restrictions of the rules. Some people just do not
have some choices because of the rules.

 

 

>Characters without limitations are generally more boring - as found on high
game, where everyone can do most stuff competantly.

 

I think this is also wrong - at top end games people tend to act in one
arch-type role - Healer, Fighter, Nuker, etc. I think comes about because at
high level you can not be good at everything, not because of the limit of
your skills but more often because of the limit of your equipment.

 

 

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: 12 October 2005 8:55 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters

 

DQ adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This is
DQ (or our campaign).

 

As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or a
college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. Restrictions and
limitations are part of what shape a character. Characters without
limitations are generally more boring - as found on high game, where
everyone can do most stuff competantly. (Good on TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship
after 40? adventures). Having no college is just an extreme limitation,
along with MD 5 meaning no weapons.

 

If you don't want the limitation, take a college.

 

Andrew


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Andrew Withy =
said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt;DQ adventurer characters are =
naturally
mage/fighter/skill polymaths. This is DQ (or our =
campaign).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think it&#8217;s a results of Rules not the =
campaign and
the campaign has just worked with what we have already =
had.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt;As a character, you can choose =
not to
learn weapons, or certain skills, or a college. Each of these are a
character-choice restriction. Restrictions and limitations are part of =
what shape
a character. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think these are again restrictions of the rules. =
Some
people just do not have some choices because of the =
rules.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt;Characters without limitations =
are
generally more boring - as found on high game, where everyone can do =
most stuff
competantly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I think this is also wrong &#8211; at top end games =
people
tend to act in one arch-type role &#8211; Healer, Fighter, Nuker, etc. I =
think
comes about because at high level you can not be good at everything, not =
because
of the limit of your skills but more often because of the limit of your
equipment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about =
time</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone =
<st1:Street
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box =
35902</st1:address></st1:Street>,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
 w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 =
173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free =
0800 55 33
66</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew
Withy (<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">DSL</st1:City> =
<st1:State
 w:st=3D"on">AK</st1:State></st1:place>)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 12 October 2005 =
8:55 a.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Serious =
Fighters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>DQ adventurer characters are =
naturally
magefighterskill polymaths. This is DQ (or our =
campaign).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>As a character, you can choose not =
to
learn weapons, or certain skills, or a college. Each of these are a
character-choice restriction. Restrictions and limitations are part of =
what
shape a character. Characters without limitations are generally more =
boring -
as found on high game, where everyone can do most stuff competantly. =
(Good on
TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship after 40? adventures). Having no college is =
just an
extreme limitation, along with MD 5 meaning no =
weapons.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If you don't want the limitation, =
take a
college.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

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MessageI was writing something like this, but Andrew has made it much more
clearly.
William
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
  Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 8:55 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters


  DQ adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This is
DQ (or our campaign).

  As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or
a college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. Restrictions
and limitations are part of what shape a character. Characters without
limitations are generally more boring - as found on high game, where
everyone can do most stuff competantly. (Good on TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship
after 40? adventures). Having no college is just an extreme limitation,
along with MD 5 meaning no weapons.

  If you don't want the limitation, take a college.

  Andrew
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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	charset="windows-1250"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1250">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1479" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D770223020-11102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I was=20
writing something like this, but Andrew has made it much more=20
clearly.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D770223020-11102005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>William</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 12 October 2005 8:55 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> =

  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Serious=20
  Fighters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>DQ=20
  adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This =
is DQ (or=20
  our campaign).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>As a=20
  character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or =
a=20
  college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. =
Restrictions and=20
  limitations are part of what shape a character. Characters without =
limitations=20
  are generally more boring - as found on high game, where everyone can =
do most=20
  stuff competantly. (Good on TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship after 40? =
adventures).=20
  Having no college is just an extreme limitation, along with MD 5 =
meaning no=20
  weapons.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D128444919-11102005>If=20
  you don't want the limitation, take a college.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D128444919-11102005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D128444919-11102005>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>=
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You can print a page at a time from the Wiki, but not all pages in a
category (or any other grouping as far as I know). So if you want to have
all NPCs available off-line, it's a bit tedious. Whether this is a
reasonable requirement, I'm not sure.
 
I do know that extracting the 10 or so pages relating to Tuscana was
tedious, especially as the saved versions don't link to each other (until
you modify them).
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 09:07
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] NPC


If one can print pages from the Wiki, (and scribble notes on them, and then
upload the changes after the NPC has interacted with another party) and one
has to print a PDF (which then after the game will be out of date with the
Wiki)... err... so what's wrong with the wiki again?  :-)


On 10/12/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) < AndrewW@datacom.co.nz
<mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> > wrote: 

Perhaps every few months a compilation of NPCs from the Wiki could be
distributed via PDF. The Wiki is still the best place to create and maintain
such a list.






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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>You 
can print a page at a time from the Wiki, but not all pages in a category (or 
any other grouping as far as I know). So if you want to have all NPCs available 
off-line, it's a bit tedious. Whether this is a reasonable requirement, I'm not 
sure.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I do 
know that extracting the 10 or so pages relating to Tuscana was tedious, 
especially as the saved versions don't link to each other (until you modify 
them).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=755510321-11102005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 12 October 2005 
  09:07<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] 
  NPC<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>If one can print pages from the Wiki, (and scribble 
  notes on them, and then upload the changes after the NPC has interacted with 
  another party) and one has to print a PDF (which then after the game will be 
  out of date with the Wiki)... err... so what's wrong with the wiki 
  again?&nbsp; :-)<BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 10/12/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Andrew 
  Withy (DSL AK)</B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>&gt; 
wrote:</SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Perhaps 
    every few months a compilation of NPCs from the Wiki could be distributed 
    via PDF. The Wiki is still the best place to create and maintain such a 
    list.<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that
sustains me.

Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)

I'ld like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you get
better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another
permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters had
developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a special
ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, well,
bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules. Death
is annoying, but you get over it.

The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun due to
the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly surreal.
Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start eating
everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of ultra-undead
which threaten to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to further
this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just another
crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all done
this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the last
five times, no-one's going to do it now.

A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim theme
to the entire Dark Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place for
a good workout.

PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on and
on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces? There's
no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end is
memorable to the player.

PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and loot
ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities just
go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some other
large nebulous hole.

PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching high
level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure until
they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it to
these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not merely,
'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm medium'.

PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low to
low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should be
something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic Elder
thug #3 last session).

PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, they
can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a different
personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing thang we
all smugly say we're good at.

PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them. If
death is real than the danger is real and will be treated accordingly.

PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter the
acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs are
accumulating such silly levels of items.

In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and playability
to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead. But
you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.

William


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Appropriate fear of death will inspire more caution, will generate more realistic responses to
extreme danger.
It will also reduce heroism, bold adventures against impossible odds, etc.

On a recent adventure my character refused to proceed down the path of the adventure because the
next step was into a place from which there was no in-character reason to expect to survive and
the potential gain was not worth his life.
Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the party did take that step (for various reasons -
fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt the game flow).  But which is the
better result?
As a result of my character choice I missed out on the core challenge of the adventure, the funky
wierd puzzle of how to get out again.  If the entire party had walked away it would have been a
very short adventure.

With a higher level of fear, an in game fear of death, how many adventurers would be found to
oppose the Dark Circle?
How many would get halfway though the adventure and then say - yep it's a Dragon all right, let's
go tell the Duke it's time to move.


I'm not completely disagreeing with you, we do need a higher expectation of risk to add an element
of fear and an in-game expectation that this could be your last act.
But it needs to be balanced - a reasonable level of fear.


btw 5 or 10, or 20 years of play of a character and still finding interest and enjoying it is not
something to be trivialised.  The longevity is one of the defining aspects of our campaign.
There are lots of games where you live hard and die young, most campaigns are like this.  Our
campaign is different in that you get to define and evolve your character over a course of years.

Cheers, Stephen.

William Dymock said:
> I thought I'd ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that sustains me.
> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
>
> A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim theme to the entire Dark
> Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place for a good workout.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

All very well, but the one problem with this is the very very slow
development of characters in DQ.

It takes YEARS to get to _OK_ 
Its soooo slow.

Jonathan Bean
 
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz
Free 0800 55 33 66


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> William Dymock
> Sent: 12 October 2005 10:39 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Permanent Death
> 
> I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that
> sustains me.
> 
> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
> 
> I'ld like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
> At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you
> get
> better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another
> permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters had
> developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a special
> ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, well,
> bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules.
> Death
> is annoying, but you get over it.
> 
> The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun due
> to
> the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly surreal.
> Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start eating
> everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of ultra-undead
> which threaten to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to further
> this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just
> another
> crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all done
> this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the last
> five times, no-one's going to do it now.
> 
> A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim
> theme
> to the entire Dark Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place
> for
> a good workout.
> 
> PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on and
> on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces?
> There's
> no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end is
> memorable to the player.
> 
> PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and loot
> ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities
> just
> go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some other
> large nebulous hole.
> 
> PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching
> high
> level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure
> until
> they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it
> to
> these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not merely,
> 'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm medium'.
> 
> PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low to
> low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should be
> something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic Elder
> thug #3 last session).
> 
> PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, they
> can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a
> different
> personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing thang
> we
> all smugly say we're good at.
> 
> PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them. If
> death is real than the danger is real and will be treated accordingly.
> 
> PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter the
> acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs are
> accumulating such silly levels of items.
> 
> In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and
> playability
> to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead.
> But
> you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.
> 
> William
> 
> 
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date:
> 11/10/2005
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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<html>
I think Williams points have been well thought out and put down.&nbsp; I
would agree with it too.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Personally playing my high characters have no apeal to me now since the
high level games are full of weird shit (including my own characters) and
its no longer DQ to me.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
If you're scared of the character's PD&nbsp; then retirement is also an
option - and also a more real liklihood in character too.&nbsp; With the
development of the out-of-game-campaign, is it feasible that these
character can still contribute their skills/knowledge if the player is
motivated&nbsp; - let these retirees become oracles whom new parties
visit for their advice/experience.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Sally<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite cite>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz on behalf of William Dymock<br>
Sent: Wed 12/10/2005 10:38<br>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
Subject: [dq] Permanent Death<br>
<br>
I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian
that<br>
sustains me.<br>
<br>
Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)<br>
<br>
I'ld like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.<br>
At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you
get<br>
better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another<br>
permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters
had<br>
developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a
special<br>
ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, 
well,<br>
bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules.
Death<br>
is annoying, but you get over it.<br>
<br>
The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun due
to<br>
the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly
surreal.<br>
Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start
eating<br>
everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of
ultra-undead<br>
which threaten to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to
further<br>
this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just
another<br>
crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all
done<br>
this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the
last<br>
five times, no-one's going to do it now.<br>
<br>
A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim
theme<br>
to the entire Dark Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place
for<br>
a good workout.<br>
<br>
PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on
and<br>
on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces?
There's<br>
no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end
is<br>
memorable to the player.<br>
<br>
PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and
loot<br>
ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities
just<br>
go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some
other<br>
large nebulous hole.<br>
<br>
PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching
high<br>
level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure
until<br>
they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it
to<br>
these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not
merely,<br>
'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm
medium'.<br>
<br>
PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low
to<br>
low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should
be<br>
something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic
Elder<br>
thug #3 last session).<br>
<br>
PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies,
they<br>
can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a
different<br>
personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing thang
we<br>
all smugly say we're good at.<br>
<br>
PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them.
If<br>
death is real than the danger is real and will be treated
accordingly.<br>
<br>
PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter
the<br>
acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs 
are<br>
accumulating such silly levels of items.<br>
<br>
In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and
playability<br>
to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead.
But<br>
you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.<br>
<br>
William<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<br>
<hr>
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William is correct, it currently doesnt really exist, especially at =
higher levels. I know of a game where the characters all deliberately =
committed suicide simply to get something done! From a roleplaying =
standpoint that seems poor. Most characters should hold there life far =
more dear than that.

Its understandable that players who've been playing a character for 15+ =
years don't like to see it permanently killed (PK'd), and often the gm's =
who run the higher games are close personal friends of the players of =
those self same characters, so you are running into all sorts of =
"issues" and considerations which are outside the game.=20

I think a few widely publicised PD's would increase the collective =
perception of danger and up the "tension" in games. But as a gm I'd only =
allow a player to be PK'd where the source of the mortal danger was =
clearly flagged to the PC's. Venturing into the known "Dragons Lair" and =
getting fried when trying to steal some treasure (not required for the =
mission!) would be an example. But failing to resist a whitefire ward on =
a random door seems overly harsh. PC's acting very foolishly/recklessly =
should give more scope to the gm. But still PD's should be few and far =
between.

I don't think the lack of PD is strictly the problem so much as the ease =
of resurrection.  A less drastic solution might be to have normal deaths =
cost characters more (and im not talking money!). Off the top of my =
head:

1.	Have a formula whereby you loose points of endurance for each =
day/week you are dead;
2.	Have points of endurance lost be permanent (in other words your =
"maximum endurance" is permanently reduced by 1 per rez);
3.	Have character take an entire session to "recover" from a rez - =
require 3 months bed rest with little/no physical activity  (ie they =
cannot train or adventure in the next session - this has a drawback of =
stopping them being rez'd mid session and continuing the adventure).=20
4.	Similar to the above but less drastic -  have post-rez "rez sickness" =
- MR and FTare  halved for 3 months following a rez.

Some combination of the above would make characters less blas=E9 about =
danger/death without crippling them with fear and preventing them taking =
on adventures.=20




-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [ mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:39 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Permanent Death


I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that
sustains me.

Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)

I'ld like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you =
get
better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another
permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters =
had
developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a special
ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, well,
bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules. =
Death
is annoying, but you get over it.

The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun =
due to
the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly =
surreal.
Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start eating
everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of ultra-undead
which threaten to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to =
further
this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just =
another
crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all done
this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the =
last
five times, no-one's going to do it now.

A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim =
theme
to the entire Dark Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place =
for
a good workout.

PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on =
and
on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces? =
There's
no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end is
memorable to the player.

PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and loot
ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities =
just
go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some =
other
large nebulous hole.

PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching =
high
level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure =
until
they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it =
to
these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not =
merely,
'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm medium'.

PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low =
to
low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should be
something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic =
Elder
thug #3 last session).

PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, =
they
can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a =
different
personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing =
thang we
all smugly say we're good at.

PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them. If
death is real than the danger is real and will be treated accordingly.

PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter the
acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs are
accumulating such silly levels of items.

In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and =
playability
to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead. =
But
you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.

William


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: =
11/10/2005


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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT size=3D2>William is correct, it currently doesnt really exist, =
especially=20
at higher levels. I know of a game where the characters all deliberately =

committed suicide simply to get something done! From a roleplaying =
standpoint=20
that seems poor. Most characters should hold there life far more dear =
than=20
that.<BR><BR>Its understandable that players who've been playing a =
character for=20
15+ years don't like to see it permanently killed (PK'd), and often the =
gm's who=20
run the higher games are close personal friends of the players of those =
self=20
same characters, so you are running into all sorts of "issues" and=20
considerations which are outside the game. <BR><BR>I think a few widely=20
publicised PD's would increase the collective perception of danger and =
up the=20
"tension" in games. But as a gm I'd only allow a player to be PK'd where =
the=20
source of the mortal danger was clearly flagged to the PC's. Venturing =
into the=20
known "Dragons Lair" and getting fried when trying to steal some =
treasure (not=20
required for the mission!) would be an example. But failing to resist a=20
whitefire ward on a random door seems overly harsh. PC's acting very=20
foolishly/recklessly should give more scope to the gm. But still PD's =
should be=20
few and far between.<BR><BR>I don't think the lack of PD is strictly the =
problem=20
so much as the ease of resurrection.&nbsp; A less drastic =
solution&nbsp;might=20
be&nbsp;to have normal deaths cost characters more (and im not talking =
money!).=20
Off the top of my head:</FONT></P><FONT size=3D2>
<OL>
  <LI>Have a formula whereby you loose points of endurance for each =
day/week you=20
  are dead;</LI>
  <LI>Have points of endurance lost be permanent (in other words your =
"maximum=20
  endurance" is permanently reduced by 1 per rez);</LI>
  <LI>Have character take an entire session to "recover" from a rez=20
  -&nbsp;require 3 months bed rest with little/no physical activity =
&nbsp;(ie=20
  they cannot train or adventure in the next session - this has a =
drawback of=20
  stopping them being rez'd mid session and continuing the adventure). =
</LI>
  <LI>Similar to the above&nbsp;but less drastic - &nbsp;have post-rez =
"rez=20
  sickness" - MR and FTare &nbsp;halved for 3 months following a =
rez.</LI></OL>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>Some combination of the above =
would make=20
characters less blas=E9 about danger/death without crippling them with =
fear and=20
preventing them taking on adventures. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On=
 Behalf=20
Of<BR>William Dymock<BR>Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:39 =
a.m.<BR>To:=20
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>Subject: [dq] Permanent Death<BR><BR><BR>I thought =
I'ld=20
ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that<BR>sustains=20
me.<BR><BR>Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)<BR><BR>I'ld =
like to see=20
more of it. Lot's more in fact.<BR>At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. =
You=20
adventure. Should you die, you get<BR>better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 =
ep and=20
wonder how to get another<BR>permanent greater. Big deal. On the last =
game I was=20
on the characters had<BR>developed such a cavilier attitude to death =
that dying=20
to gain a special<BR>ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. =
That's=20
just, well,<BR>bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the =
game's=20
meta-rules. Death<BR>is annoying, but you get over it.<BR><BR>The =
current=20
adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun due to<BR>the =
awesome=20
GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly surreal.<BR>Rashak=20
threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start =
eating<BR>everyone),=20
has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of ultra-undead<BR>which =
threaten=20
to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to further<BR>this mad =
quest.=20
The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just another<BR>crazed=20
necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all =
done<BR>this=20
before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the =
last<BR>five=20
times, no-one's going to do it now.<BR><BR>A history of more regular PDs =
could=20
of helped instill a far more grim theme<BR>to the entire Dark Circle. It =
should=20
be feared, not regarded as a place for<BR>a good workout.<BR><BR>PD =
brings a=20
close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on and<BR>on. =
Why are=20
the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces? There's<BR>no=20
resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end =
is<BR>memorable=20
to the player.<BR><BR>PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC =
aquires=20
ep and loot<BR>ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The =
wierdo=20
abilities just<BR>go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, =
church=20
or some other<BR>large nebulous hole.<BR><BR>PD brings value to =
achieving medium=20
or high level. Currently, reaching high<BR>level is an inevitability. =
Your PC=20
will accrue ep, items and treasure until<BR>they count as high. If PD is =
a real=20
(it isn't now) danger then making it to<BR>these stages is an =
achievement the=20
player can feel cool about. Not merely,<BR>'I've had this PC for 5 years =
and 12=20
adventures, I guess I'm medium'.<BR><BR>PD will increase demand for low =
level=20
adventures. DQ works best at low to<BR>low-medium. Actually getting to =
full on=20
medium or even high should be<BR>something to talk/brag about rather =
than (well,=20
we defeated generic Elder<BR>thug #3 last session).<BR><BR>PD means more =
PCs.=20
Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, they<BR>can start a =
new one.=20
The new one can try a different path, have a different<BR>personality =
and=20
world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing thang we<BR>all =
smugly say=20
we're good at.<BR><BR>PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers =
arayyed=20
against them. If<BR>death is real than the danger is real and will be =
treated=20
accordingly.<BR><BR>PD means the challenges need not be utterly =
rediculous to=20
counter the<BR>acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since =
less Pcs=20
are<BR>accumulating such silly levels of items.<BR><BR>In summary, I =
feel=20
increased Permanent Death will add value and playability<BR>to the game. =
Sure,=20
you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead. But<BR>you now =
know their=20
full story and you'll have a new one.<BR><BR>William<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>No =
virus=20
found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG =
Anti-Virus.<BR>Version:=20
7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: =
11/10/2005<BR><BR><BR>--=20
to unsubscribe notify <A=20
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A=
>=20
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<html>
<blockquote type=cite cite><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz on behalf of Jonathan Bean<br>
Sent: Wed 12/10/2005 11:13<br>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death<br>
<br>
All very well, but the one problem with this is the very very slow<br>
development of characters in DQ.<br>
<br>
It takes YEARS to get to _OK_<br>
Its soooo slow.<br>
<br>
Jonathan </blockquote><br>
<br>
Perhaps you could downgrade you perception of what level 'OK'
is.&nbsp;&nbsp; You only need to be as good as your opponents, and GMs
refelct that int he level of the NPCs one interacts with.&nbsp; Like
devaluing the dollar - if everyone cut their numbers in half then they're
all realatively the same.<br>
<br>
<br>
I may be old fashioned , but I thought the appeal in DQ was its realism -
yes it takes years to practise at something to be good at it.&nbsp; Why
isn't dealing with the consequences of backfires and weapon fumbles
interesting roleplaying anymore?&nbsp; <br>
<br>
<br>
For years the heroic deeds against godlike creations have become the
usual fare for parties, which propagates the weird shit. How many times
does the world need saving?&nbsp; <br>
<br>
Sally<br>
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Don=92t change the rules that we have =96 start using them.

=20

The problem I see often is GMs just rez people without taking into =
account
the rules at all. Once poor nameless character on a game I GMed was on
starting 8% to resurrect them.

They lost 8 EN points from this.  GMs are often not taking into account =
the
modifiers for resurrections.=20

=20

Jonathan Bean

=20

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

=20

  _____ =20

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz
Sent: 12 October 2005 11:17 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death

=20

William is correct, it currently doesnt really exist, especially at =
higher
levels. I know of a game where the characters all deliberately committed
suicide simply to get something done! From a roleplaying standpoint that
seems poor. Most characters should hold there life far more dear than =
that.

Its understandable that players who've been playing a character for 15+
years don't like to see it permanently killed (PK'd), and often the gm's =
who
run the higher games are close personal friends of the players of those =
self
same characters, so you are running into all sorts of "issues" and
considerations which are outside the game.=20

I think a few widely publicised PD's would increase the collective
perception of danger and up the "tension" in games. But as a gm I'd only
allow a player to be PK'd where the source of the mortal danger was =
clearly
flagged to the PC's. Venturing into the known "Dragons Lair" and getting
fried when trying to steal some treasure (not required for the mission!)
would be an example. But failing to resist a whitefire ward on a random =
door
seems overly harsh. PC's acting very foolishly/recklessly should give =
more
scope to the gm. But still PD's should be few and far between.

I don't think the lack of PD is strictly the problem so much as the ease =
of
resurrection.  A less drastic solution might be to have normal deaths =
cost
characters more (and im not talking money!). Off the top of my head:

1.	Have a formula whereby you loose points of endurance for each
day/week you are dead;
2.	Have points of endurance lost be permanent (in other words your
"maximum endurance" is permanently reduced by 1 per rez);
3.	Have character take an entire session to "recover" from a rez -
require 3 months bed rest with little/no physical activity  (ie they =
cannot
train or adventure in the next session - this has a drawback of stopping
them being rez'd mid session and continuing the adventure).=20
4.	Similar to the above but less drastic -  have post-rez "rez
sickness" - MR and FTare  halved for 3 months following a rez.

Some combination of the above would make characters less blas=E9 about
danger/death without crippling them with fear and preventing them taking =
on
adventures.=20





-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:39 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Permanent Death


I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian that
sustains me.

Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)

I'ld like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you =
get
better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another
permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters =
had
developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a special
ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, well,
bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules. =
Death
is annoying, but you get over it.

The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun =
due to
the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly =
surreal.
Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start eating
everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of ultra-undead
which threaten to drain the life of all in the Western Kingdom to =
further
this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just =
another
crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all done
this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the =
last
five times, no-one's going to do it now.

A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim =
theme
to the entire Dark Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place =
for
a good workout.

PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on =
and
on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces? =
There's
no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end is
memorable to the player.

PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and loot
ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities =
just
go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some =
other
large nebulous hole.

PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching =
high
level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure =
until
they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it =
to
these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not =
merely,
'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm medium'.

PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low =
to
low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should be
something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic =
Elder
thug #3 last session).

PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, =
they
can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a =
different
personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing =
thang we
all smugly say we're good at.

PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them. If
death is real than the danger is real and will be treated accordingly.

PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter the
acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs are
accumulating such silly levels of items.

In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and =
playability
to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead. =
But
you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.

William


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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.14/129 - Release Date: =
11/10/2005


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Don&#8217;t change the rules that =
we have &#8211;
start using them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The problem I see often is GMs just =
rez
people without taking into account the rules at all. Once poor nameless =
character
on a game I GMed was on starting 8% to resurrect =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>They lost 8 EN points from this. =
=A0GMs are often
not taking into account the modifiers for resurrections. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about =
time</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone =
<st1:Street
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box =
35902</st1:address></st1:Street>,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
 w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 =
173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free =
0800 55 33
66</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 12 October 2005 =
11:17 a.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Permanent Death</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>William
is correct, it currently doesnt really exist, especially at higher =
levels. I
know of a game where the characters all deliberately committed suicide =
simply
to get something done! From a roleplaying standpoint that seems poor. =
Most
characters should hold there life far more dear than that.<br>
<br>
Its understandable that players who've been playing a character for 15+ =
years
don't like to see it permanently killed (PK'd), and often the gm's who =
run the
higher games are close personal friends of the players of those self =
same
characters, so you are running into all sorts of &quot;issues&quot; and =
considerations
which are outside the game. <br>
<br>
I think a few widely publicised PD's would increase the collective =
perception
of danger and up the &quot;tension&quot; in games. But as a gm I'd only =
allow a
player to be PK'd where the source of the mortal danger was clearly =
flagged to
the PC's. Venturing into the known &quot;Dragons Lair&quot; and getting =
fried
when trying to steal some treasure (not required for the mission!) would =
be an
example. But failing to resist a whitefire ward on a random door seems =
overly
harsh. PC's acting very foolishly/recklessly should give more scope to =
the gm.
But still PD's should be few and far between.<br>
<br>
I don't think the lack of PD is strictly the problem so much as the ease =
of
resurrection.&nbsp; A less drastic solution&nbsp;might be&nbsp;to have =
normal
deaths cost characters more (and im not talking money!). Off the top of =
my
head:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
     style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Have a formula whereby you loose points =
of
     endurance for each day/week you are =
dead;<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
     style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Have points of endurance lost be =
permanent (in
     other words your &quot;maximum endurance&quot; is permanently =
reduced by 1
     per rez);<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
     style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Have character take an entire session to
     &quot;recover&quot; from a rez -&nbsp;require 3 months bed rest =
with
     little/no physical activity &nbsp;(ie they cannot train or =
adventure in
     the next session - this has a drawback of stopping them being rez'd =
mid session
     and continuing the adventure). <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
     style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Similar to the above&nbsp;but less =
drastic -
     &nbsp;have post-rez &quot;rez sickness&quot; - MR and FTare =
&nbsp;halved
     for 3 months following a rez.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Some combination of the above would =
make
characters less blas=E9 about danger/death without crippling them with =
fear and
preventing them taking on adventures. </span></font><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<a =
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]On=

Behalf Of<br>
William Dymock<br>
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:39 a.m.<br>
To: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
Subject: [dq] Permanent Death<br>
<br>
<br>
I thought I'ld ressurrect a topic near to that peice of obsidian =
that<br>
sustains me.<br>
<br>
Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)<br>
<br>
I'ld like to see more of it. <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Lot</st1:place>'s =
more in
fact.<br>
At the moment DQ is incredibly silly. You adventure. Should you die, you =
get<br>
better (!?!). You pay the n x 2500 ep and wonder how to get another<br>
permanent greater. Big deal. On the last game I was on the characters =
had<br>
developed such a cavilier attitude to death that dying to gain a =
special<br>
ability seemed like not such a bad thing to them. That's just, well,<br>
bizzare. However it is a natural consequence of the game's meta-rules. =
Death<br>
is annoying, but you get over it.<br>
<br>
The current adventure I'm on is a case in point. While it's lotsa fun =
due to<br>
the awesome GMing and roleplayers the actual scenario is utterly =
surreal.<br>
Rashak threatens to raise an Elder God (who will presumably start =
eating<br>
everyone), has powers far beyond mortal ken and legions of =
ultra-undead<br>
which threaten to drain the life of all in the <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName
 w:st=3D"on">Western</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType =
w:st=3D"on">Kingdom</st1:PlaceType></st1:place>
to further<br>
this mad quest. The heroes attitude is one of bemusement. It's just =
another<br>
crazed necromancer and mad god, with unstoppable weapons. We've all =
done<br>
this before. No-one got irreparably smeared accross 12 dimensions the =
last<br>
five times, no-one's going to do it now.<br>
<br>
A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far more grim =
theme<br>
to the entire <st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">Dark =
Circle</st1:address></st1:Street>.
It should be feared, not regarded as a place for<br>
a good workout.<br>
<br>
PD brings a close to a character's story. It doesn't just go on and on =
and<br>
on. Why are the Wheel of Time novels regarded as utter dingo feces? =
There's<br>
no resolution, it just goes on. And on. And on. Even an ignoble end =
is<br>
memorable to the player.<br>
<br>
PD resolves issues of topping-out. Currently a PC aquires ep and =
loot<br>
ad-infinitum. When a PC dies for good this stops. The wierdo abilities =
just<br>
go away and the money and items go to the PCs family, church or some =
other<br>
large nebulous hole.<br>
<br>
PD brings value to achieving medium or high level. Currently, reaching =
high<br>
level is an inevitability. Your PC will accrue ep, items and treasure =
until<br>
they count as high. If PD is a real (it isn't now) danger then making it =
to<br>
these stages is an achievement the player can feel cool about. Not =
merely,<br>
'I've had this PC for 5 years and 12 adventures, I guess I'm =
medium'.<br>
<br>
PD will increase demand for low level adventures. DQ works best at low =
to<br>
low-medium. Actually getting to full on medium or even high should =
be<br>
something to talk/brag about rather than (well, we defeated generic =
Elder<br>
thug #3 last session).<br>
<br>
PD means more PCs. Players won't get into a rut. When their PC dies, =
they<br>
can start a new one. The new one can try a different path, have a =
different<br>
personality and world-view. This must add to that neat role-playing =
thang we<br>
all smugly say we're good at.<br>
<br>
PD will actually make PCs apreciate the dangers arayyed against them. =
If<br>
death is real than the danger is real and will be treated =
accordingly.<br>
<br>
PD means the challenges need not be utterly rediculous to counter =
the<br>
acumulated items and special abilities of the PCs since less Pcs are<br>
accumulating such silly levels of items.<br>
<br>
In summary, I feel increased Permanent Death will add value and =
playability<br>
to the game. Sure, you won't be able to play your PC after they're dead. =
But<br>
you now know their full story and you'll have a new one.<br>
<br>
William<br>
<br>
<br>
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<blockquote type=cite cite><br>
On a recent adventure my character refused to proceed down the path of
the adventure because the<br>
next step was into a place from which there was no in-character reason to
expect to survive and<br>
the potential gain was not worth his life.<br>
Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the party did take that step
(for various reasons -<br>
fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt the game
flow).&nbsp; But which is the<br>
better result?<br>
As a result of my character choice I missed out on the core challenge of
the adventure, the funky<br>
wierd puzzle of how to get out again.&nbsp; If the entire party had
walked away it would have been a<br>
very short adventure</blockquote><br>
<br>
That's the whole point Stephen.&nbsp; My character went in, despite the
threat of PD, and others followed her.&nbsp; The players/characters
weren't scared enough of PD to risk their x years of roleplaying
history.&nbsp; My character did die on the way back, but the GM wimped
out of making it a PD.&nbsp; The GM lost this opportunity to teach the
players to fear PD.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
There weas quite an intense discussion before going in as to whether or
not we went, and if we hadn't, sure the mission would not have proceeded
along the way the GM may have expected, but he would have adapted.&nbsp;
There still would have been a roleplaying game even if we didn't 'suceed'
according to the employers directive.<br>
<br>
I think William was addressing the culture of GMing in this campaign,
which has evolved to this style of fearing to give out&nbsp; PD.&nbsp; At
least bringing the topic out for discussion has brought awareness to the
issue. <br>
<br>
Sally<br>
<br>
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It has been implied in the PD topic that high-level rules-breaking super-heroic games are bad.

Keep in mind that we all enjoy different aspects of DQ, we all play for different reasons.
Some people enjoy the extreme-heroic aspects and style of games, others like low level struggles
where a river in flood is an obstacle, some love combats, some hate them, some just turn up for
the social event and don't care what the mission is, others are very task/mission focussed and
like to achieve the goals.
None of these are intrinsicially wrong, they are just different aspects of our campaign which each
of us likes or dislikes to a different degree.

We (definitely including myself as a target of this) need to keep this in mind and not destroy or
diminish an aspect of the game that is loved by a small group just because we don't like it and
look down on it.

Cheers, Stephen.


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> William Dymock said:
> > I thought I'd ressurrect a topic near to that peice of 
> obsidian that sustains me.
> > Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
> >
> > A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far 
> more grim theme to the entire Dark
> > Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place for a 
> good workout.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:10
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death
> 
> 
> Appropriate fear of death will inspire more caution, will 
> generate more realistic responses to
> extreme danger.
> It will also reduce heroism, bold adventures against 
> impossible odds, etc.
> 

However, it isn't really heroism if you have to seriously screw up to PD
(and not even then, it would seem). I find the current situation
unsatisfying. If I'm presented with a situation that appears to out-match
the party's skills, do I press on in the (player) expectation that we can
handle it (providing we are reasonably competent, with a bug-out option
otherwise) regardless of the evidence available to the character? This
factor shouldn't be a significant part of my thought processes.


> On a recent adventure my character refused to proceed down 
> the path of the adventure because the
> next step was into a place from which there was no 
> in-character reason to expect to survive and
> the potential gain was not worth his life.
> Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the party did 
> take that step 

GMs should provide the characters with reasons to believe that taking the
steps required for the mission are a reasonable risk (or rather risk/benefit
combination). They should not be relying on factors like 'players know that
the game won't make any sense unless they take this blind step', or 'all
adventurers are glory-mad'.
Of course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and certainly
can't be expected to be perfect.

(for various reasons -
> fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt 
> the game flow).  But which is the
> better result?
> As a result of my character choice I missed out on the core 
> challenge of the adventure, the funky
> wierd puzzle of how to get out again.  If the entire party 
> had walked away it would have been a
> very short adventure.
> 
> With a higher level of fear, an in game fear of death, how 
> many adventurers would be found to
> oppose the Dark Circle?

There are strong in game reasons to fight rather than run from the DC - e.g.
survival of the PCs society, fear that if it isn't stopped now it will take
over the multiverse etc.

> How many would get halfway though the adventure and then say 
> - yep it's a Dragon all right, let's
> go tell the Duke it's time to move.
> 
> 
> I'm not completely disagreeing with you, we do need a higher 
> expectation of risk to add an element
> of fear and an in-game expectation that this could be your last act.
> But it needs to be balanced - a reasonable level of fear.
> 
> 

Agreed, but I think the current balance (it has been how many years since
the last PD?) is wrong.
I'm not sure how to change it (it is mainly an attitude thing) , this
discussion seems like a good start.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Permanent Death</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; William Dymock said:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I thought I'd ressurrect a topic near to =
that peice of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; obsidian that sustains me.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as =
PD)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; A history of more regular PDs could of =
helped instill a far </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; more grim theme to the entire Dark</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Circle. It should be feared, not regarded =
as a place for a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; good workout.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Stephen Martin [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po=
intclark.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Appropriate fear of death will inspire more =
caution, will </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; generate more realistic responses to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; extreme danger.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It will also reduce heroism, bold adventures =
against </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; impossible odds, etc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>However, it isn't really heroism if you have to =
seriously screw up to PD (and not even then, it would seem). I find the =
current situation unsatisfying. If I'm presented with a situation that =
appears to out-match the party's skills, do I press on in the (player) =
expectation that we can handle it (providing we are reasonably =
competent, with a bug-out option otherwise) regardless of the evidence =
available to the character? This factor shouldn't be a significant part =
of my thought processes.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; On a recent adventure my character refused to =
proceed down </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the path of the adventure because the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; next step was into a place from which there was =
no </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; in-character reason to expect to survive =
and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the potential gain was not worth his =
life.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the =
party did </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; take that step </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>GMs should provide the characters with reasons to =
believe that taking the steps required for the mission are a reasonable =
risk (or rather risk/benefit combination). They should not be relying =
on factors like 'players know that the game won't make any sense unless =
they take this blind step', or 'all adventurers are =
glory-mad'.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Of course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement =
etc, and certainly can't be expected to be perfect.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>(for various reasons -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not =
wanting to disrupt </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the game flow).&nbsp; But which is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; better result?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As a result of my character choice I missed out =
on the core </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; challenge of the adventure, the funky</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; wierd puzzle of how to get out again.&nbsp; If =
the entire party </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; had walked away it would have been a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; very short adventure.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; With a higher level of fear, an in game fear of =
death, how </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; many adventurers would be found to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; oppose the Dark Circle?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There are strong in game reasons to fight rather than =
run from the DC - e.g. survival of the PCs society, fear that if it =
isn't stopped now it will take over the multiverse etc.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; How many would get halfway though the adventure =
and then say </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; - yep it's a Dragon all right, let's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; go tell the Duke it's time to move.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I'm not completely disagreeing with you, we do =
need a higher </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; expectation of risk to add an element</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of fear and an in-game expectation that this =
could be your last act.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; But it needs to be balanced - a reasonable =
level of fear.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agreed, but I think the current balance (it has been =
how many years since the last PD?) is wrong.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm not sure how to change it (it is mainly an =
attitude thing) , this discussion seems like a good start.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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What GM wants to PK a player who does not want PD?

 

The player has been playing the character for years - has lovingly toiled to
make the character how they want it - they dream about the character - they
identify as if they are the character etc etc etc  

 

What GM is willing to take this away???  What GM would kill a Vychan, a TDP,
a sir Christopher, or any number of others - when the players do not want to
die.  Even a player with 5 years history is generally deeply cherished by
the player.

 

To me this is the real issue here.

 

Players like to be in charge of their character destiny - unfortunately the
culture of "I will not get PK here because that just doesn't happen" means
that players play to this (probably without even noticing that they are
doing this).

 

Perhaps the suggestion of making resurrection painfully slow is a good one
this would certainly stop me from being so cavalier with GoK's life.  It may
be the ease of resurrection that is as much the problem as PD.

 

Hamish

 

  

 

Hamish Brown

Director

 

Zenergy

Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

119 Mt Eden Rd,

Auckland

www.zenergyglobal.com 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:33 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death

 

> William Dymock said: 
> > I thought I'd ressurrect a topic near to that peice of 
> obsidian that sustains me. 
> > Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD) 
> > 
> > A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far 
> more grim theme to the entire Dark 
> > Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place for a 
> good workout. 

> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:10 
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death 
> 
> 
> Appropriate fear of death will inspire more caution, will 
> generate more realistic responses to 
> extreme danger. 
> It will also reduce heroism, bold adventures against 
> impossible odds, etc. 
> 

However, it isn't really heroism if you have to seriously screw up to PD
(and not even then, it would seem). I find the current situation
unsatisfying. If I'm presented with a situation that appears to out-match
the party's skills, do I press on in the (player) expectation that we can
handle it (providing we are reasonably competent, with a bug-out option
otherwise) regardless of the evidence available to the character? This
factor shouldn't be a significant part of my thought processes.

 

> On a recent adventure my character refused to proceed down 
> the path of the adventure because the 
> next step was into a place from which there was no 
> in-character reason to expect to survive and 
> the potential gain was not worth his life. 
> Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the party did 
> take that step 

GMs should provide the characters with reasons to believe that taking the
steps required for the mission are a reasonable risk (or rather risk/benefit
combination). They should not be relying on factors like 'players know that
the game won't make any sense unless they take this blind step', or 'all
adventurers are glory-mad'.

Of course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and certainly
can't be expected to be perfect. 

(for various reasons - 
> fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt 
> the game flow).  But which is the 
> better result? 
> As a result of my character choice I missed out on the core 
> challenge of the adventure, the funky 
> wierd puzzle of how to get out again.  If the entire party 
> had walked away it would have been a 
> very short adventure. 
> 
> With a higher level of fear, an in game fear of death, how 
> many adventurers would be found to 
> oppose the Dark Circle? 

There are strong in game reasons to fight rather than run from the DC - e.g.
survival of the PCs society, fear that if it isn't stopped now it will take
over the multiverse etc.

> How many would get halfway though the adventure and then say 
> - yep it's a Dragon all right, let's 
> go tell the Duke it's time to move. 
> 
> 
> I'm not completely disagreeing with you, we do need a higher 
> expectation of risk to add an element 
> of fear and an in-game expectation that this could be your last act. 
> But it needs to be balanced - a reasonable level of fear. 
> 
> 

Agreed, but I think the current balance (it has been how many years since
the last PD?) is wrong. 
I'm not sure how to change it (it is mainly an attitude thing) , this
discussion seems like a good start. 

Cheers 
Errol 


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<title>RE: [dq] Permanent Death</title>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What GM wants to PK a player who =
does not
want PD?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The player has been playing the =
character
for years &#8211; has lovingly toiled to make the character how they =
want it &#8211;
they dream about the character &#8211; they identify as if they are the
character etc etc etc&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What GM is willing to take this =
away???&nbsp;
What GM would kill a Vychan, a TDP, a sir Christopher, or any number of =
others &#8211;
when the players do not want to die.&nbsp; Even a player with 5 years =
history
is generally deeply cherished by the =
player.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me this is the real issue =
here.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Players like to be in charge of =
their
character destiny &#8211; unfortunately the culture of &#8221;I will not =
get PK
here because that just doesn&#8217;t happen&#8221; means that players =
play to
this (probably without even noticing that they are doing =
this).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Perhaps the suggestion of making =
resurrection
painfully slow is a good one this would certainly stop me from being so =
cavalier
with GoK&#8217;s life.&nbsp; It may be the ease of resurrection that is =
as much
the problem as PD.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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People
Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October =
12, 2005
12:33 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Permanent Death</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
William Dymock said:</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; I thought I'd =
ressurrect
a topic near to that peice of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; obsidian that =
sustains me.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; Permanent =
Death.
(hereafter refered to as PD)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; A history of =
more regular
PDs could of helped instill a far </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; more grim theme to =
the entire
Dark</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; Circle. It =
should be
feared, not regarded as a place for a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; good =
workout.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-----Original Message-----</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; From: Stephen =
Martin [<a
href=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.poi=
ntclark.net</a>]</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 12 =
October
2005 11:10</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; To: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName></span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] =
Permanent
Death</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Appropriate fear of =
death will
inspire more caution, will </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; generate more =
realistic
responses to</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; extreme =
danger.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It will also reduce =
heroism,
bold adventures against </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; impossible odds, =
etc.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>However,
it isn't really heroism if you have to seriously screw up to PD (and not =
even
then, it would seem). I find the current situation unsatisfying. If I'm
presented with a situation that appears to out-match the party's skills, =
do I
press on in the (player) expectation that we can handle it (providing we =
are
reasonably competent, with a bug-out option otherwise) regardless of the
evidence available to the character? This factor shouldn't be a =
significant
part of my thought processes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; On a
recent adventure my character refused to proceed down </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the path of the =
adventure
because the</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; next step was into =
a place
from which there was no </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; in-character reason =
to expect
to survive and</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the potential gain =
was not
worth his life.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Fortunately for the =
GM and the
game most of the party did </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; take that step =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>GMs
should provide the characters with reasons to believe that taking the =
steps
required for the mission are a reasonable risk (or rather risk/benefit
combination). They should not be relying on factors like 'players know =
that the
game won't make any sense unless they take this blind step', or 'all
adventurers are glory-mad'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Of
course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and certainly =
can't be
expected to be perfect.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(for
various reasons -</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; fatalism, =
curiosity,
self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the game =
flow).&nbsp; But
which is the</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; better =
result?</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; As a result of my =
character
choice I missed out on the core </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; challenge of the =
adventure,
the funky</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; wierd puzzle of how =
to get out
again.&nbsp; If the entire party </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; had walked away it =
would have
been a</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; very short =
adventure.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; With a higher level =
of fear,
an in game fear of death, how </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; many adventurers =
would be
found to</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; oppose the =
<st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address
 w:st=3D"on">Dark Circle</st1:address></st1:Street>?</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>There are
strong in game reasons to fight rather than run from the DC - e.g. =
survival of
the PCs society, fear that if it isn't stopped now it will take over the
multiverse etc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; How
many would get halfway though the adventure and then say =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; - yep it's a Dragon =
all right,
let's</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; go tell the Duke =
it's time to
move.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; I'm not completely =
disagreeing
with you, we do need a higher </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; expectation of risk =
to add an
element</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; of fear and an =
in-game
expectation that this could be your last act.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; But it needs to be =
balanced -
a reasonable level of fear.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Agreed,
but I think the current balance (it has been how many years since the =
last PD?)
is wrong.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I'm not sure how to =
change it (it
is mainly an attitude thing) , this discussion seems like a good =
start.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Errol</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

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I agree with others who suggest that separating warriors and mages is BAD.
Players being able to develop there own direction is GOOD including
warrior/mage which is not hamstrung in its ability to develop as a
warrior/assassin or whatever.

 

An alternative is to develop warrior in other ways.  What about different
races having different emphasis within the warrior skill.

 

Elves get IV bonus

Dwarves get DMG bonus

Humans get SC bonus

Giants get big feet and shape changes get big teeth.

Halflings warriors get to be a joke.

 

This does not address the issue presented but then I don't have a problem,
it does add more character specialization.  (your not just the 4th rk 7
warrior the party has).

 

Cheers H

 

 

Hamish Brown

Director

 

Zenergy

Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

119 Mt Eden Rd,

Auckland

www.zenergyglobal.com 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
William Dymock
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 9:41 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters

 

I was writing something like this, but Andrew has made it much more clearly.

William

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 8:55 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Serious Fighters

DQ adventurer characters are naturally magefighterskill polymaths. This is
DQ (or our campaign).

 

As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or a
college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. Restrictions and
limitations are part of what shape a character. Characters without
limitations are generally more boring - as found on high game, where
everyone can do most stuff competantly. (Good on TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship
after 40? adventures). Having no college is just an extreme limitation,
along with MD 5 meaning no weapons.

 

If you don't want the limitation, take a college.

 

Andrew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with others who suggest =
that separating
warriors and mages is BAD.&nbsp; Players being able to develop there own =
direction
is GOOD including warrior/mage which is not hamstrung in its ability to =
develop
as a warrior/assassin or whatever.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>An alternative is to develop =
warrior in
other ways.&nbsp; What about different races having different emphasis =
within the
warrior skill.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Elves get IV =
bonus<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dwarves get DMG =
bonus<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Humans get SC =
bonus<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Giants get big feet and shape =
changes get
big teeth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Halflings warriors get to be a =
joke.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This does not address the issue =
presented
but then I don&#8217;t have a problem, it does add more character =
specialization.&nbsp;
(your not just the 4<sup>th</sup> rk 7 warrior the party =
has).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers =
H<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Hamish =
Brown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'>Director<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D4 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'>Zenergy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Whole =
People
Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2
  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
  "Book Antiqua";color:black'>119 Mt Eden =
Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font =
size=3D2
  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
  "Book =
Antiqua";color:black'>Auckland</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:black'>www.zenergyglobal.com
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>William
Dymock<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October =
12, 2005
9:41 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Serious =
Fighters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I was writing something like this, =
but
Andrew has made it much more clearly.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>William</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=


</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew
Withy (<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">DSL</st1:City> =
<st1:State
 w:st=3D"on">AK</st1:State></st1:place>)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 12 =
October 2005
8:55 a.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Serious =
Fighters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>DQ adventurer characters are =
naturally
magefighterskill polymaths. This is DQ (or our =
campaign).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>As a character, you can choose not =
to
learn weapons, or certain skills, or a college. Each of these are a
character-choice restriction. Restrictions and limitations are part of =
what
shape a character. Characters without limitations are generally more =
boring -
as found on high game, where everyone can do most stuff competantly. =
(Good on
TDP for Rank 1 horsemanship after 40? adventures). Having no college is =
just an
extreme limitation, along with MD 5 meaning no =
weapons.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If you don't want the limitation, =
take a
college.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

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On 10/12/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
> You can print a page at a time from the Wiki, but not all pages in a
> category (or any other grouping as far as I know). So if you want to have
> all NPCs available off-line, it's a bit tedious. Whether this is a
> reasonable requirement, I'm not sure.
>

I'm trying to imagine a need for this... an adventure of "Hunting the
Guild's 10 Most Wanted"? :-) (Which is probably more reasonably an adventur=
e
each...)

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On 10/12/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Errol Cavit</b> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz">tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">







<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">You=20
can print a page at a time from the Wiki, but not all pages in a category (=
or=20
any other grouping as far as I know). So if you want to have all NPCs avail=
able=20
off-line, it's a bit tedious. Whether this is a reasonable requirement, I'm=
 not=20
sure.</font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>
I'm trying to imagine a need for this... an adventure of &quot;Hunting the
Guild's 10 Most Wanted&quot;? :-)&nbsp; (Which is probably more reasonably
an adventure each...)<br>
</div></div><br>

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I've been playing around with an idea that I picked up from the "Troll
Babes" RPG - that of player-driven risk & commitment. This ties into PD.
=20
My observations:
=20
Imagine a commitment scale of:
Passionate
Committed
Interested
Disinterested
=20
Each character is more or less committed to any given scene. e.g. if one
of the characters' child is being taken by a troll, that character is
passionate. The other characters are probably committed, except for one
or two who don't really care. Who in this scene will be taking the big
risks, doing the dramatic actions, and deserves the rewards? Death
saving your child is meaningful.
=20
e.g. Medium party. A bar fight breaks out. Everyone joins in, but are
disinterested - perceived risk/reward is low. Probably no need for real
combat resolution. A fatal spec grev would be "wrong". Suddenly one of
the party is shived. The party is interested and starts taking risks.
Combat breaks out. Completely different flavour of event. Death/maiming
in this fight is a little meaningful.
=20
------------------
My less coherent thoughts are:
Those who are less involved in a scene notice other stuff. A, who is
sitting back, laughing as B's children are being eaten by the troll, may
notice the lone figure on the hilltop. On the other hand, B's going to
be getting the Best Dramatic Effects and possibly die mods as she wades
in with a dagger against the troll.  If B dies in the throws of passion,
this is heroic and a good death. If A dies by an accidentally dropped
axe, this is unlucky/pathetic.  You also need to tie in levels of reward
with the risk. You shouldn't always be passionate, nor always
disinterested.
=20
Some games require heroism/passion for most of the game - (e.g. I think
Jim Arona was big on this). Some require calculation instead. Some
require both, or neither. Different GMs want different things.
=20
Somehow you should tie in the character's commitment, the risk they
face, their effectiveness and the reward they get. Also this ties in
with PD. If you want your character to be safe, you don't get passionate
and avoid risks & big rewards. If you want your character to be heroic,
you take risks. Over time, you character can fade away or be heroic &
eventually die.
=20
------------------
Andrew

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've =
been playing=20
around with an idea that I picked up from the "Troll Babes" RPG - that =
of=20
player-driven risk&nbsp;&amp; commitment. This ties into =
PD.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My=20
observations:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Imagine a commitment=20
scale of:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Passionate</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Committed</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Interested</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Disinterested</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Each =
character is=20
more or less committed to any given scene. e.g. if one of the =
characters' child=20
is being taken by a troll, that character is&nbsp;passionate. The other=20
characters are probably committed, except for one or two who don't =
really care.=20
Who in this scene will be taking the big risks, doing the dramatic =
actions, and=20
deserves the rewards? Death saving your child is =
meaningful.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>e.g. =
Medium party. A=20
bar fight breaks out. Everyone joins in, but are disinterested - =
perceived=20
risk/reward is low. Probably no need for real combat resolution. A fatal =
spec=20
grev would be "wrong". Suddenly one of the party is shived. The party=20
is&nbsp;interested and starts taking risks. Combat breaks out. =
Completely=20
different flavour of event. Death/maiming in this fight is a little=20
meaningful.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>------------------</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My =
less coherent=20
thoughts are:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Those =
who are less=20
involved in a scene notice other stuff. A, who is sitting back, laughing =
as B's=20
children are being eaten by the troll, may notice the lone figure on the =

hilltop. On the other hand, B's going to be getting the Best Dramatic =
Effects=20
and possibly die mods as she wades in with a dagger against the =
troll.&nbsp; If=20
B dies in the throws of passion, this is heroic and a good death. If A =
dies by=20
an accidentally dropped axe, this is unlucky/pathetic.&nbsp; You also =
need to=20
tie in levels of reward with the risk. You shouldn't always be =
passionate, nor=20
always disinterested.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some =
games require=20
heroism/passion for most of the game - (e.g. I think Jim Arona was big =
on this).=20
Some require calculation instead. Some require both, or neither. =
Different GMs=20
want different things.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Somehow you=20
should&nbsp;tie in the character's commitment, the risk they face, their =

effectiveness and the reward they get. Also this ties in with PD. If you =
want=20
your character to be safe, you don't get passionate and avoid risks =
&amp; big=20
rewards. If you want your character to be heroic, you take risks. Over =
time, you=20
character can fade away or be heroic &amp; eventually =
die.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><SPAN =
class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>------------------</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D441571600-12102005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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The easy printability of wiki pages depends on the structure of them and is probably something to
keep in mind when entering them.
If you scatter the information about a place or person across half a dozen detail pages then you
get a structure that is quite nice to read online, reference, and edit.  But is a pain to print.
If you combine it all into one 2000 line wiki page then it is easy to print (assuming you want all
of it) but can be a pain to edit and references are often to subsections of pages which can be a
pain.

Meandering back onto topic...

A wiki page per NPC or 'Bad Guy' group seems ideal.  They are easily printed before the session,
if they are unexpectedly required during a session and it's important enough then you take a
coffee break while the GM goes online and looks up the details.  Or the GM stalls or sidetracks
until next week so they can research them first.
A printed book will be out of date as soon as it is printed and used.  Fine in a single-gm game
where you can remember or refer back to your notes in the margins but in our multi-gm game it just
perpetuates the current inconsistencies between games (e.g. It's Trickie-Dickie! Didn't we
irresurrectably kill him last season?).

The NPC and Villain categories are quick and easy ways to find the bad guy you want.
Also having references from the locations they are active in helps, so when the GM looks up the
region of Aquila the party is passing through they can see that the Aquilan Purity Coalition is
attacking caravans in the area and then go from there to look up the APC.

Cheers, Stephen.

Martin Dickson said:
> On 10/12/05, Errol Cavit <tmp0002@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> You can print a page at a time from the Wiki, but not all pages in a category (or any other
>> grouping as far as I know). So if you want to have all NPCs available off-line, it's a bit
>> tedious. Whether this is a reasonable requirement, I'm not sure.
>>
>
> I'm trying to imagine a need for this... an adventure of "Hunting the Guild's 10 Most Wanted"?
> :-) (Which is probably more reasonably an adventure each...)


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Message
>Andrew Withy said:
 >DQ adventurer characters are naturally mage/fighter/skill polymaths. =
This is DQ (or our campaign).
Jonathan Bean said:
I think it's a results of Rules not the campaign and the campaign has =
just worked with what we have already had.

I beleave its both, the DQ Rules allow for the creation of the Fighter/ =
Mage/ Skill pollymaths, and the lenght of our campain gives people =
plenty of time to develope characters that way rather than having to =
specialise much more than we do.
=20
>As a character, you can choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, =
or a college. Each of these are a character-choice restriction. =
Restrictions and limitations are part of what shape a character.=20
=20
I think these are again restrictions of the rules. Some people just do =
not have some choices because of the rules.
=20
With the current character creation rules, I must agree with Andrew on =
this People either choice to role or take their 90 points and spend them =
how they wish. If you have a good idea of what you are aiming for in the =
character and /or an experianced players help  the only things you cant =
do is use big f**** off weapons as a ten pound weakling or train animals =
with out WP or make weapons if they are a fumble fingered cluts. if you =
build the stats right from the start eventually you can do most things =
with a character even be multi collaged.

>Characters without limitations are generally more boring - as found on =
high game, where everyone can do most stuff competantly.
=20
I think this is also wrong - at top end games people tend to act in one =
arch-type role - Healer, Fighter, Nuker, etc. I think comes about =
because at high level you can not be good at everything, not because of =
the limit of your skills but more often because of the limit of your =
equipment.
=20
Here again I think its a bit of both in a Low Game where you have to =
think about who is doing what and how you order the party there is a =
challenge in just doing odinary stuff. Once that is past it often =
becomes some one is marginally better for some things than for others =
either due to items or skill choices, then there is a different =
challenge in sorting out who is the best tool for the job or the best =
disposition of these wealth of resorces, and getting 6 plus Heros to =
work together. This can make for a slower game than a low were things =
are often more clear cut and success or failure regulary is reliant on =
the roll of the dice.

Helen
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;<FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Andrew Withy said:<BR>&nbsp;&gt;DQ adventurer characters =
are=20
naturally mage/fighter/skill polymaths. This is DQ (or our=20
campaign).<BR></FONT>Jonathan Bean&nbsp;said:<BR>I think it=92s a =
results of Rules=20
not the campaign and the campaign has just worked with what we have =
already=20
had.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000>I beleave its =
both,&nbsp;the DQ=20
Rules allow for the creation of the Fighter/ Mage/ =
Skill&nbsp;pollymaths,=20
and&nbsp;the lenght of our campain gives people plenty of time to=20
develope&nbsp;characters that way rather than having to specialise much =
more=20
than we do.<BR>&nbsp;<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&gt;As a =
character, you can=20
choose not to learn weapons, or certain skills, or a college. Each of =
these are=20
a character-choice restriction. Restrictions and limitations are part of =
what=20
shape a character. <BR></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>I think these are again =
restrictions of=20
the rules. Some people just do not have some choices because of the=20
rules.<BR>&nbsp;<BR><FONT color=3D#008000>With the current character =
creation=20
rules, I must agree with Andrew on this People either choice to role or =
take=20
their 90 points and spend them how they wish. If you have a good idea of =
what=20
you are aiming for in the character and /or&nbsp;an experianced players=20
help&nbsp; the only things you cant do is use big f**** off weapons as a =
ten=20
pound weakling or train animals with out WP or make weapons if they are =
a fumble=20
fingered cluts. if you build the stats right from the start eventually =
you can=20
do most things with a character even be multi =
collaged.</FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&gt;Characters without limitations are =
generally=20
more boring - as found on high game, where everyone can do most stuff=20
competantly</FONT>.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>I think this is also wrong =96 at top =
end games=20
people tend to act in one arch-type role =96 Healer, Fighter, Nuker, =
etc. I think=20
comes about because at high level you can not be good at everything, not =
because=20
of the limit of your skills but more often because of the limit of your=20
equipment.<BR>&nbsp;<BR><FONT color=3D#008000>Here again&nbsp;I think =
its a bit of=20
both in a Low Game where you have to think about who is doing what and =
how you=20
order the party there is a challenge in just&nbsp;doing odinary stuff. =
Once that=20
is past it often becomes some one is marginally better for some things =
than for=20
others either due to items or skill choices, then there is a=20
different&nbsp;challenge in sorting out who is the best tool for the job =
or the=20
best disposition of these wealth of resorces, and getting&nbsp;6 plus =
Heros to=20
work together. This can make for a slower game than a low were things =
are often=20
more clear cut and success or failure regulary is reliant on =
the&nbsp;roll of=20
the dice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#008000></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#008000>Helen</FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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On 12/10/2005, at 13:53, Andrew Withy ((DSL AK)) wrote:

> Some games require heroism/passion for most of the game - (e.g. I 
> think Jim Arona was big on this). Some require calculation instead. 
> Some require both, or neither. Different GMs want different things.

I have only been on one Jim game, but as I recall heroism was rewarded. 
My character did die, but there weren't a lot of bad consequences.

> Somehow you should tie in the character's commitment, the risk they 
> face, their effectiveness and the reward they get. Also this ties in 
> with PD. If you want your character to be safe, you don't get 
> passionate and avoid risks & big rewards. If you want your character 
> to be heroic, you take risks. Over time, you character can fade away 
> or be heroic & eventually die.

I agree with this. When my characters do eventually permanently die, I 
would like it to be in a heroic manner. Killing Cain perhaps, not 
standing on a ward. It is for this reason I don't like save or 
permanently die spells - not because characters shouldn't permanently 
die, but because that is such a pathetic way for it to happen.

cheers,

clare


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I'm not sure where all this has come from.

William and I are playing on the same high level game (I think). but I am
not sure given his post.

 

In the high level game I am playing in - I feel the GM will permanently kill
about 50% to 100% of the party this session.

He was hand picked because he is fair but pulls no punches, and is happy to
let characters and a story develop based on player actions but is willing to
kill people dead.

I feel that there is a level of tension within the game that other GMs at
high level would not have been able to create. 

 

I have told the others players (as leader and party employer) that the risks
are very high and they can expect to die permanently.

I gave them 5 chances to withdraw and I would think less of them but they
would be able to live.

On this high level game there is a great deal of fear and expectation that
we will not succeed - but that's ok because I don't expect to be around to
see the failure.

I think it is brave that some people are playing in high level games in the
Dark Circle given the extreme dangers.

 

I think this is the first adventure (out of a lot of high level adventures)
where I think the results and the level of danger and threat is so high I
would describe it as - saving the plan.

Sally asked how many times does the world need saving. this is the first
time for me. 

 

On the flip side it's good that people are talking of this now.

As I fully expect our party to be wiped out and for other parties to follow
and for their to be more permanent deaths as a result.

 

Jonathan Bean

 

Business Development Manager

TME - Its all about time

Phone 966 1656         PO Box 35902, Browns Bay

Fax 448 1051           Auckland, New Zealand

Mob 021 173 4060       www.tme.co.nz

Free 0800 55 33 66

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Johanna and Hamish
Sent: 12 October 2005 1:02 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death

 

What GM wants to PK a player who does not want PD?

 

The player has been playing the character for years - has lovingly toiled to
make the character how they want it - they dream about the character - they
identify as if they are the character etc etc etc  

 

What GM is willing to take this away???  What GM would kill a Vychan, a TDP,
a sir Christopher, or any number of others - when the players do not want to
die.  Even a player with 5 years history is generally deeply cherished by
the player.

 

To me this is the real issue here.

 

Players like to be in charge of their character destiny - unfortunately the
culture of "I will not get PK here because that just doesn't happen" means
that players play to this (probably without even noticing that they are
doing this).

 

Perhaps the suggestion of making resurrection painfully slow is a good one
this would certainly stop me from being so cavalier with GoK's life.  It may
be the ease of resurrection that is as much the problem as PD.

 

Hamish

 

  

 

Hamish Brown

Director

 

Zenergy

Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world

119 Mt Eden Rd,

Auckland

www.zenergyglobal.com 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 12:33 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death

 

> William Dymock said: 
> > I thought I'd ressurrect a topic near to that peice of 
> obsidian that sustains me. 
> > Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD) 
> > 
> > A history of more regular PDs could of helped instill a far 
> more grim theme to the entire Dark 
> > Circle. It should be feared, not regarded as a place for a 
> good workout. 

> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 11:10 
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death 
> 
> 
> Appropriate fear of death will inspire more caution, will 
> generate more realistic responses to 
> extreme danger. 
> It will also reduce heroism, bold adventures against 
> impossible odds, etc. 
> 

However, it isn't really heroism if you have to seriously screw up to PD
(and not even then, it would seem). I find the current situation
unsatisfying. If I'm presented with a situation that appears to out-match
the party's skills, do I press on in the (player) expectation that we can
handle it (providing we are reasonably competent, with a bug-out option
otherwise) regardless of the evidence available to the character? This
factor shouldn't be a significant part of my thought processes.

 

> On a recent adventure my character refused to proceed down 
> the path of the adventure because the 
> next step was into a place from which there was no 
> in-character reason to expect to survive and 
> the potential gain was not worth his life. 
> Fortunately for the GM and the game most of the party did 
> take that step 

GMs should provide the characters with reasons to believe that taking the
steps required for the mission are a reasonable risk (or rather risk/benefit
combination). They should not be relying on factors like 'players know that
the game won't make any sense unless they take this blind step', or 'all
adventurers are glory-mad'.

Of course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and certainly
can't be expected to be perfect. 

(for various reasons - 
> fatalism, curiosity, self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt 
> the game flow).  But which is the 
> better result? 
> As a result of my character choice I missed out on the core 
> challenge of the adventure, the funky 
> wierd puzzle of how to get out again.  If the entire party 
> had walked away it would have been a 
> very short adventure. 
> 
> With a higher level of fear, an in game fear of death, how 
> many adventurers would be found to 
> oppose the Dark Circle? 

There are strong in game reasons to fight rather than run from the DC - e.g.
survival of the PCs society, fear that if it isn't stopped now it will take
over the multiverse etc.

> How many would get halfway though the adventure and then say 
> - yep it's a Dragon all right, let's 
> go tell the Duke it's time to move. 
> 
> 
> I'm not completely disagreeing with you, we do need a higher 
> expectation of risk to add an element 
> of fear and an in-game expectation that this could be your last act. 
> But it needs to be balanced - a reasonable level of fear. 
> 
> 

Agreed, but I think the current balance (it has been how many years since
the last PD?) is wrong. 
I'm not sure how to change it (it is mainly an attitude thing) , this
discussion seems like a good start. 

Cheers 
Errol 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m not sure where all this =
has come
from.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>William and I are playing on the =
same high
level game (I think)&#8230; but I am not sure given his =
post.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In the high level game I am playing =
in &#8211;
I feel the GM will permanently kill about 50% to 100% of the party this
session.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>He was hand picked because he is =
fair but
pulls no punches, and is happy to let characters and a story develop =
based on
player actions but is willing to kill people =
dead.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I feel that there is a level of =
tension within
the game that other GMs at high level would not have been able to =
create. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I have told the others players (as =
leader
and party employer) that the risks are very high and they can expect to =
die
permanently.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I gave them 5 chances to withdraw =
and I
would think less of them but they would be able to =
live.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On this high level game there is a =
great
deal of fear and expectation that we will not succeed &#8211; but =
that&#8217;s ok
because I don&#8217;t expect to be around to see the =
failure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think it is brave that some =
people are
playing in high level games in the <st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address =
w:st=3D"on">Dark
  Circle</st1:address></st1:Street> given the extreme =
dangers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think this is the first adventure =
(out
of a lot of high level adventures) where I think the results and the =
level of danger
and threat is so high I would describe it as &#8211; saving the =
plan.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Sally asked how many times does the =
world
need saving&#8230; this is the first time for me. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On the flip side it&#8217;s good =
that
people are talking of this now&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As I fully expect our party to be =
wiped
out and for other parties to follow and for their to be more permanent =
deaths
as a result.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jonathan Bean</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Business Development =
Manager</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>TME - Its all about =
time</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Phone =
<st1:Street
w:st=3D"on"><st1:address w:st=3D"on">966
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PO Box =
35902</st1:address></st1:Street>,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on">Browns</st1:PlaceName> =
<st1:PlaceType
 w:st=3D"on">Bay</st1:PlaceType></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Fax 448
1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City>, =
<st1:country-region w:st=3D"on">New
  Zealand</st1:country-region></st1:place></span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Mob 021 =
173
4060&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;www.tme.co.nz</span></font>=
<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Free =
0800 55 33
66</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Johanna and Hamish<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 12 October 2005 =
1:02 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Permanent Death</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What GM wants to PK a player who =
does not
want PD?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The player has been playing the =
character
for years &#8211; has lovingly toiled to make the character how they =
want it
&#8211; they dream about the character &#8211; they identify as if they =
are the
character etc etc etc&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What GM is willing to take this
away???&nbsp; What GM would kill a Vychan, a TDP, a sir Christopher, or =
any number
of others &#8211; when the players do not want to die.&nbsp; Even a =
player with
5 years history is generally deeply cherished by the =
player.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me this is the real issue =
here.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Players like to be in charge of =
their
character destiny &#8211; unfortunately the culture of &#8221;I will not =
get PK
here because that just doesn&#8217;t happen&#8221; means that players =
play to
this (probably without even noticing that they are doing =
this).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Perhaps the suggestion of making
resurrection painfully slow is a good one this would certainly stop me =
from
being so cavalier with GoK&#8217;s life.&nbsp; It may be the ease of
resurrection that is as much the problem as =
PD.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Hamish =
Brown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'>Director<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D4 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'>Zenergy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Whole =
People
Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2
  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
  "Book Antiqua";color:black'>119 Mt Eden =
Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><font =
size=3D2
  color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
  "Book =
Antiqua";color:black'>Auckland</span></font></st1:City></st1:place><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:black'>www.zenergyglobal.com
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October =
12, 2005
12:33 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Permanent Death</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
William Dymock said:</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; I thought I'd =
ressurrect
a topic near to that peice of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; obsidian that =
sustains me.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; Permanent =
Death.
(hereafter refered to as PD)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; A history of =
more regular
PDs could of helped instill a far </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; more grim theme to =
the entire
Dark</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &gt; Circle. It =
should be feared,
not regarded as a place for a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; good =
workout.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-----Original Message-----</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; From: Stephen =
Martin [<a
href=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.poi=
ntclark.net</a>]</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 12 =
October
2005 11:10</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; To: <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName></span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] =
Permanent
Death</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Appropriate fear of =
death will
inspire more caution, will </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; generate more =
realistic
responses to</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; extreme =
danger.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It will also reduce =
heroism,
bold adventures against </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; impossible odds, =
etc.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>However,
it isn't really heroism if you have to seriously screw up to PD (and not =
even
then, it would seem). I find the current situation unsatisfying. If I'm
presented with a situation that appears to out-match the party's skills, =
do I
press on in the (player) expectation that we can handle it (providing we =
are
reasonably competent, with a bug-out option otherwise) regardless of the
evidence available to the character? This factor shouldn't be a =
significant
part of my thought processes.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; On a
recent adventure my character refused to proceed down </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the path of the =
adventure
because the</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; next step was into =
a place
from which there was no </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; in-character reason =
to expect
to survive and</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the potential gain =
was not
worth his life.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Fortunately for the =
GM and the
game most of the party did </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; take that step =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>GMs
should provide the characters with reasons to believe that taking the =
steps
required for the mission are a reasonable risk (or rather risk/benefit
combination). They should not be relying on factors like 'players know =
that the
game won't make any sense unless they take this blind step', or 'all
adventurers are glory-mad'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Of
course, GMs do make mistakes, errors of judgement etc, and certainly =
can't be
expected to be perfect.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(for
various reasons -</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; fatalism, =
curiosity,
self-belief, or not wanting to disrupt </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the game =
flow).&nbsp; But
which is the</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; better =
result?</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; As a result of my =
character
choice I missed out on the core </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; challenge of the =
adventure,
the funky</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; wierd puzzle of how =
to get out
again.&nbsp; If the entire party </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; had walked away it =
would have
been a</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; very short =
adventure.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; With a higher level =
of fear,
an in game fear of death, how </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; many adventurers =
would be
found to</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; oppose the =
<st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address
 w:st=3D"on">Dark Circle</st1:address></st1:Street>?</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>There are
strong in game reasons to fight rather than run from the DC - e.g. =
survival of
the PCs society, fear that if it isn't stopped now it will take over the
multiverse etc.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; How
many would get halfway though the adventure and then say =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; - yep it's a Dragon =
all right,
let's</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; go tell the Duke =
it's time to
move.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; I'm not completely =
disagreeing
with you, we do need a higher </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; expectation of risk =
to add an
element</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; of fear and an =
in-game
expectation that this could be your last act.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; But it needs to be =
balanced - a
reasonable level of fear.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Agreed,
but I think the current balance (it has been how many years since the =
last PD?)
is wrong.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I'm not sure how to =
change it (it
is mainly an attitude thing) , this discussion seems like a good =
start.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Errol</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

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> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
>
> I'd like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.

Could always resurrect the rule we used to have that you could only die as
many times as your Starting Endurance, after that it is permenant. Of course
this was discussed and voted down some time ago :-)

As far as I can see there are two issues here that could be looked at.

Healing.
Remove some of the insta-heal things from the game. Remove guild healing
potions and go back to healer heal endurance potions. Make healers (the
skill) useful again for something other than an investagative skill for
living things.
With this the chances of death increase. Currently it is damn hard to kill
characters at all never mind irresurctably.


Ressurection.
It is too damn quick. I think ressurection should put you on 0 and 0 with
all fatigue and endurance having to be healed back at rest.
However here you have the 'removing players from the enjoyment of the game'
issues. If healing takes time then it removes the player from the game for
that long.


Permenant death is not something I would like to see often. Losing something
I have spent 10-15 years of my life on is a touch annoying, never mind what
it would be like for those players who only have one character and don't
really want to play another.

I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. Make it more of a
bad thing, while still being able to reward the heroic death, and the way to
do that is by removing items and abilities.

Mandos
/s


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Currently the loss of equipment is often feared more than death.

One option is to introduce more irresurectable deaths into the game and also introduce a new
Resurrection ability at Rk 10 which is to "Rebirth" someone whose body is destroyed and/or soul
departed (probably at high cost of materials and recovery time).
The character would survive but their gear is probably all gone and they are restored to life in
their true form (many body-mods and oddities would also go).
To a Low character this is probably not too much of an issue, to a medium it hurts but at least
you are alive, to a high it probably demotes you to medium until you can regain enough gear to
become high again.

It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a character you are still enjoying.

An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be considered less valuable as adventure
rewards compared to talents, spells, skills, and changes to your true form.


Mandos Mitchinson said:
>> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
>>
>> I'd like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
>
> I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. Make it more of a bad thing, while
> still being able to reward the heroic death, and the way to do that is by removing items and
> abilities.
>
> Mandos
> /s


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MessageWhen I play I don't really consider there any to be any =
differance between PD and resurectably dead (RD), for the characters =
Dead is Dead. Once your dead there is no garantee any one will or can =
bring you back so just don't go there.
If the characters wern't prepared to take some risk they would all stay =
home and knit socks or something.

I don't kill my characters on purpose, they have on ocassion taken a =
unlucky spec grevs or masive unexpected hits that have taken them from =
relatively healthy to dying or dead in one pulse, but I usually go into =
a fight with the intent of running if things go badly.=20
Only once have I taken a charracter into a situation where I new it =
would die (posibly perminantly), and then only because It knew it was =
dead anyway if it didn't try and almost deffinatly perminantly in that =
case. So mainly it was a case going out trying and hoping that the party =
would be able to recover your body in time if you failed.
It should be considered that while characters know they can die and come =
back. That they know that the situation with the guild is such that the =
other party members should do everything in there power to recover you =
and restore you to health. It should always be in the back of the =
characters mind that if they can not recover you, if they can not =
preserve the dead or find a master healer, if they all die too, thats it =
PD.

Our Adventure level system does very little to discorrage players from =
risking RD. Lows shouldn't die, Meduims posibly, highs are just waiting =
for the odds to catch up with them but not instantly PD.=20

By the time you start to mix and match Parties at Medium there is =
usually a rk 5 healer about, and once you have a players character on =
ice most Gms just provide a means of resurecting to get the Player back =
into the game.=20
My last resurection was one of those 3 EN 0 ft heal it back over time, =
no healer or potions to speed things up jobbies, it was perhaps more =
frustrating for the party who had to carry the extra load than for me.=20

I don't think more deaths perminant or other wise are going to make the =
world darker, grimer, (do we really want this in something many of use =
do for fun) or cause players or PCs to fear death more.

Consequences, lost of Items because the other pcs can't carry all your =
gear theirs and you body, or stop to grab your uber weapon as they =
pulled you body from the jaws of PD and flee are perhaps one way, of =
discoraging a casual atitude to death, especially if the PCs are being =
silly with there lives. Unless of course you are on a very high or =
extreme adventure and then if you lose the character to PD well its part =
of the levels description its not like you as ther player didn't get =
fair warning.

Helen
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1515" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When I play I don't really consider =
there any to be=20
any differance between PD and resurectably dead (RD), for the characters =
Dead is=20
Dead. Once your dead there is no garantee any one will or can bring you =
back so=20
just don't go there.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the characters wern't prepared to =
take some risk=20
they would all stay home and knit socks or something.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't kill my characters on purpose, =
they have on=20
ocassion taken a unlucky spec grevs or masive unexpected hits that have =
taken=20
them from relatively healthy to dying or dead in one pulse, but I =
usually go=20
into a fight with the intent of running if things go badly. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Only once have I taken a charracter =
into a=20
situation where I new it would die (posibly perminantly), and then only =
because=20
It knew it was dead anyway&nbsp;if it didn't try and almost deffinatly=20
perminantly in that case. So mainly it was a case going out trying and =
hoping=20
that the party would be able to recover&nbsp;your body in time if you=20
failed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It should be considered that =
while&nbsp;characters=20
know they can die and come back. That&nbsp;they know that the situation =
with the=20
guild is such that the other party members should do everything in there =
power=20
to recover you and restore you to health. </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>It=20
should always be in the back of&nbsp;the characters&nbsp;mind that if =
they can=20
not recover you, if they can not preserve the dead or find a master =
healer, if=20
they all die too, thats it PD.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our Adventure level system does very =
little to=20
discorrage players from risking RD. Lows shouldn't die, Meduims posibly, =
highs=20
are just&nbsp;waiting for&nbsp;the odds to catch up with them but not =
instantly=20
PD. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>By the time you start to mix and match =
Parties at=20
Medium there is usually a rk 5 healer about, and once you have a players =

character on ice most Gms just provide a means of resurecting to get the =
Player=20
back into the game. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My last&nbsp;resurection was one of =
those 3=20
EN&nbsp;0&nbsp;ft heal it back over time, no healer or potions to speed =
things=20
up jobbies, it was perhaps more frustrating for the party who had to =
carry the=20
extra load than for me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't think more deaths perminant or =
other wise=20
are going to make the world darker, grimer, (do we really want this in =
something=20
many of use do for fun) or cause players or PCs to fear death =
more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Consequences, lost of Items because the =
other pcs=20
can't carry all your gear theirs and you body, or stop to&nbsp;grab your =
uber=20
weapon as they pulled you body from the jaws of PD and flee are perhaps =
one way,=20
of discoraging a casual atitude to death, especially if the PCs are =
being silly=20
with there lives. Unless of course you are on a very high or extreme =
adventure=20
and then if you lose the character to PD well its part of the levels =
description=20
its not like you as ther player didn't get fair warning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Stephen Martin wrote:

>Currently the loss of equipment is often feared more than death.
>
>One option is to introduce more irresurectable deaths into the game and also introduce a new
>Resurrection ability at Rk 10 which is to "Rebirth" someone whose body is destroyed and/or soul
>departed (probably at high cost of materials and recovery time).
>The character would survive but their gear is probably all gone and they are restored to life in
>their true form (many body-mods and oddities would also go).
>To a Low character this is probably not too much of an issue, to a medium it hurts but at least
>you are alive, to a high it probably demotes you to medium until you can regain enough gear to
>become high again.
>
>It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a character you are still enjoying.
>
>An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be considered less valuable as adventure
>rewards compared to talents, spells, skills, and changes to your true form.
>
>
>Mandos Mitchinson said:
>  
>
>>>Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
>>>
>>>I'd like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
>>>      
>>>
>>I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. Make it more of a bad thing, while
>>still being able to reward the heroic death, and the way to do that is by removing items and
>>abilities.
>>
>>Mandos
>>/s
>>    
>>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
>  
>
Another option that springs to mind would be to move resurrection to 
Rank 10 Healer, shifting the regeneration abilities to 8 & 9 respectively.

I have always wondered why it is easier to bring someone back from the 
dead than regrow lost body parts.


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> It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a
> character you are still enjoying.
>
> An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be
> considered less valuable as adventure rewards compared to
> talents, spells, skills, and changes to your
> true form.

It also allows an element of choice. If you are happy for you character to
PD, then don't use the option, (I have a character or two in that catagory)
and for the characters you want to keep playing you can.

Good solution.

Mandos
/s


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:mandos@allowed.to]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 15:59
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death
> 
> 
<snip>

> 
> Permenant death is not something I would like to see often. 

Agreed. If there are more than a handful a year the balance is probably
wrong, barring truly exceptional circumstances.

> Losing something
> I have spent 10-15 years of my life on is a touch annoying, 
> never mind what
> it would be like for those players who only have one 
> character and don't
> really want to play another.
> 
> I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. 
> Make it more of a
> bad thing, while still being able to reward the heroic death, 
> and the way to
> do that is by removing items and abilities.
> 

Isn't loss of items mainly a function of who controls the battlefield after
a fight, rather than who died? Or do you mean that having a high material
cost of resurrection will force PCs to sell their good stuff?

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:mandos@allowed.to">mailto:mandos@allowed.to</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2005 15:59</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Permenant death is not something I would like =
to see often. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agreed. If there are more than a handful a year the =
balance is probably wrong, barring truly exceptional =
circumstances.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Losing something</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I have spent 10-15 years of my life on is a =
touch annoying, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; never mind what</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it would be like for those players who only =
have one </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; character and don't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; really want to play another.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I think we need to remove some of the =
acceptance of death. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Make it more of a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; bad thing, while still being able to reward the =
heroic death, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and the way to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; do that is by removing items and =
abilities.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Isn't loss of items mainly a function of who controls =
the battlefield after a fight, rather than who died? Or do you mean =
that having a high material cost of resurrection will force PCs to sell =
their good stuff?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kharsis" <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death


> Another option that springs to mind would be to move resurrection to
> Rank 10 Healer, shifting the regeneration abilities to 8 & 9 respectively.
>
> I have always wondered why it is easier to bring someone back from the
> dead than regrow lost body parts.

Do you know how many PCs there are who can resurect even with the bar set at
Rank 8?
Most resurections are done by NPCs any way because once you have a rank 5
healer you can spin out the time before resurection indefinately, so GMs put
in NPC locally or PCs get returned to the Guild for a resurection of a
downed party member.
Living is something the body does naturally like healing, Healers just jump
start things. Regrowing missing bits is natural only for lizards.

Helen


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At 13:56 12/10/05, you wrote:
>A wiki page per NPC or 'Bad Guy' group seems ideal.  They are easily 
>printed before the session,
>if they are unexpectedly required during a session and it's important 
>enough then you take a
>coffee break while the GM goes online and looks up the details.  Or the GM 
>stalls or sidetracks
>until next week so they can research them first.

What would be more useful would be worked character sheets for un-named bad 
guys. A typical medium-level necromancer anyone? These would be rather more 
disposable methinks than named NPCs.

Which reminds me...

Does the wiki have a monster section? If so I probably have some 
contributions to make.

How about a section for new and revised Colleges and suchlike? I would like 
to make that revised Greater Summoner I did a while back more available, 
along with the NPC who used it. (Reminds self to finish that Shaman College).

Jacqui


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At 16:31 12/10/05, you wrote:
>One option is to introduce more irresurectable deaths into the game and 
>also introduce a new
>Resurrection ability at Rk 10 which is to "Rebirth" someone whose body is 
>destroyed and/or soul
>departed (probably at high cost of materials and recovery time).
>The character would survive but their gear is probably all gone and they 
>are restored to life in
>their true form (many body-mods and oddities would also go).
>To a Low character this is probably not too much of an issue, to a medium 
>it hurts but at least
>you are alive, to a high it probably demotes you to medium until you can 
>regain enough gear to
>become high again.
>
>It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a character 
>you are still enjoying.
>
>An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be considered 
>less valuable as adventure
>rewards compared to talents, spells, skills, and changes to your true form.

I can see considerable merit both in this suggestion, and the proposal to 
make ressurrectible death more painful. Like many players I have invested a 
lot of time and effort in my characters, and one would not wish to see that 
all turned to nothing on a single roll of the dice. This is  especially 
true of the older ones. One becomes more attached to them as they grow. So, 
being able to bring something back from a formerly irressurrectible death 
is a plus. But it must not be easy... and there must be a real loss 
involved - and the weirdnesses acquired at medium to high are probably it...

Jacqui


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Yes - I like this solution.

It adds richness also, as a PC which has acquired a number of weird
abilities might prefer to die and have a party quest to bring them back -
thus restoring them to their natural form with no magic items, and thus
bringing them out of retirement and along a new path.

H

Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:32 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death

Currently the loss of equipment is often feared more than death.

One option is to introduce more irresurectable deaths into the game and also
introduce a new
Resurrection ability at Rk 10 which is to "Rebirth" someone whose body is
destroyed and/or soul
departed (probably at high cost of materials and recovery time).
The character would survive but their gear is probably all gone and they are
restored to life in
their true form (many body-mods and oddities would also go).
To a Low character this is probably not too much of an issue, to a medium it
hurts but at least
you are alive, to a high it probably demotes you to medium until you can
regain enough gear to
become high again.

It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a character you
are still enjoying.

An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be considered less
valuable as adventure
rewards compared to talents, spells, skills, and changes to your true form.


Mandos Mitchinson said:
>> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
>>
>> I'd like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
>
> I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. Make it more of
a bad thing, while
> still being able to reward the heroic death, and the way to do that is by
removing items and
> abilities.
>
> Mandos
> /s


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> Which reminds me...
> 
> Does the wiki have a monster section? If so I probably have some 
> contributions to make.

It's a wiki.

You want it there you add it, if it's crap someone else will remove it.

Mandos
/s


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I too like this solution.

I have been guilty as GM of rushing a resurrection, as I wanted the players
to continue enjoying the adventure - the deaths usually caused them quite a
bit of effort getting the body back to someone who could resurrect them.
Coming back to the guild is often difficult, and whilst there the rest of
the party can power up, train, research or otherwise do 'downtime' actions.

I tend not to overly penalise them if the death was unlucky or heroic.
Stupid deserves everything they get, and more! 

So I would not want resurrection made rarer, though perhaps more harmful.
And I remember GMing that the recently resurrected was at 0 END and 0 FT.
But a healing potion or two cured all that.

Remove the guild healing potions, and fights will last much less, and people
will avoid combat where possible. And endurance armour will be so common as
to defy logic!

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Johanna and Hamish
> Sent: 12 October 2005 19:30
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death
> 
> Yes - I like this solution.
> 
> It adds richness also, as a PC which has acquired a number of weird
> abilities might prefer to die and have a party quest to bring them back -
> thus restoring them to their natural form with no magic items, and thus
> bringing them out of retirement and along a new path.
> 
> H
> 
> Hamish Brown
> Director
> 
> Zenergy
> Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
> 119 Mt Eden Rd,
> Auckland
> www.zenergyglobal.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 4:32 PM
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Permanent Death
> 
> Currently the loss of equipment is often feared more than death.
> 
> One option is to introduce more irresurectable deaths into the game and
> also
> introduce a new
> Resurrection ability at Rk 10 which is to "Rebirth" someone whose body is
> destroyed and/or soul
> departed (probably at high cost of materials and recovery time).
> The character would survive but their gear is probably all gone and they
> are
> restored to life in
> their true form (many body-mods and oddities would also go).
> To a Low character this is probably not too much of an issue, to a medium
> it
> hurts but at least
> you are alive, to a high it probably demotes you to medium until you can
> regain enough gear to
> become high again.
> 
> It introduces risks without necessarily ending the story of a character
> you
> are still enjoying.
> 
> An effect of this would be that items and body-mods would be considered
> less
> valuable as adventure
> rewards compared to talents, spells, skills, and changes to your true
> form.
> 
> 
> Mandos Mitchinson said:
> >> Permanent Death. (hereafter refered to as PD)
> >>
> >> I'd like to see more of it. Lot's more in fact.
> >
> > I think we need to remove some of the acceptance of death. Make it more
> of
> a bad thing, while
> > still being able to reward the heroic death, and the way to do that is
> by
> removing items and
> > abilities.
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> 
> 
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