As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos
/s


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They also deal with plants and animals a lot, probably more of their spells refer to that than earth and stone.
  And they have to be able to tell if their binding earth ritual worked :)

Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
  As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos
/s

From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  Listen to over 20 online radio stations and watch over 5000 music videos on Yahoo! Music.
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<DIV>They also deal with plants and animals a lot, probably more of their spells refer to that than earth and stone.</DIV>  <DIV>And they have to be able to tell if their binding earth ritual worked :)<BR><BR><B><I>Mandos Mitchinson &lt;MandosM@adhb.govt.nz&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....<BR><BR>Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?<BR><BR>Mandos<BR>/s</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> 
<a 
href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/launch/mail/*http://au.launch.yahoo.com"> 
Listen to over 20 online radio stations and watch over 5000 music videos on Yahoo! Music.</a>
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So they can tell the stone and earth apart from the rest (with auras).

Jono

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 9:41 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] DA. 



As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos
/s


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Aren't they meant to be in tune with nature (druidic stuff). Living things have aura's, the plants and trees that live on/in the earth. The same things they get to talk to with the gerneral knowledge spell. 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 9:41 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] DA. 



As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos
/s


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On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 09:40, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....
> 
> Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
> the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?
> 
> Mandos
> /s

Yeah, it should be taken away from them and given to witches, who
specialize in living things and fertility. And it fits the witch
stereotype - wise woman, sees all, mumble mumble handwave. Besides,
we^H^Hthey need it to find apprentices - MA 18+ girls are hard to come
by. 

Nope, I'm not biased, not at all. I have almost as many earth mage PCs
as witches - the numbers only differ by one.

(No, this is not a serious suggestion.)


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A good union :.-)

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 9:41 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] DA.



As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos
/s


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Woodhams [mailto:mdw@free.net.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 10:22
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DA.
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 09:40, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> > As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....
> > 
> > Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, 
> pretty much
> > the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?
> > 
> > Mandos
> > /s
> 
> Yeah, it should be taken away from them and given to witches, who
> specialize in living things and fertility. And it fits the witch
> stereotype - wise woman, sees all, mumble mumble handwave. Besides,
> we^H^Hthey need it to find apprentices - MA 18+ girls are hard to come
> by. 
> 

Them having some kind of night vision as a Talent makes a lot more sense to
me than having it as a Special too.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Michael Woodhams [<A HREF="mailto:mdw@free.net.nz">mailto:mdw@free.net.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 10:22</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] DA.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 09:40, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; pretty much</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Yeah, it should be taken away from them and given to witches, who</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; specialize in living things and fertility. And it fits the witch</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; stereotype - wise woman, sees all, mumble mumble handwave. Besides,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; we^H^Hthey need it to find apprentices - MA 18+ girls are hard to come</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; by. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Them having some kind of night vision as a Talent makes a lot more sense to me than having it as a Special too.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Hi,
I'm trying to get some ship guidelines together. Could people email me
any ship docs they may have, or even thoughts like "The Destinians use
C17 Caravels, far in advance of all other shipping".
=20
Andrew

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm =
trying to get=20
some ship guidelines together. Could people email me any ship docs they =
may=20
have, or even thoughts like "The Destinians use C17 Caravels, far in =
advance of=20
all other shipping".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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MessageThere was a great program on discovery a few months back on ships =
right from the trireme, and Norse longship, though to the modern =
aircraft carrier. I made a page of notes on the stuff though to C17, but =
can't remember where I put it now. :-)  in my GM stuff somewhere.
I made notes on lengths, general out line, rigging, masts that sort of =
thing with dates and so on. I'll have a look and see if  I can find it.
Its rather odd to realize that Columbus discovered America in a =
glorified long boat, and that in bad weather it was not only endanger =
for waves breaking over the stern and swamping it but by the Wind =
against the forecastle pushing the bow under and doing the same thing.

Helen

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 10:59 AM
  Subject: [dq] Ships


  Hi,
  I'm trying to get some ship guidelines together. Could people email me =
any ship docs they may have, or even thoughts like "The Destinians use =
C17 Caravels, far in advance of all other shipping".

  Andrew
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There was a great program on discovery =
a few months=20
back on ships right from the trireme, and Norse longship, though to the =
modern=20
aircraft carrier. I made a page of notes on the stuff though to C17, but =
can't=20
remember where I put it now. :-) &nbsp;in my GM stuff =
somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I made notes on lengths, general out =
line,=20
rigging,&nbsp;masts&nbsp;that sort of thing with dates and so on. I'll =
have a=20
look and see if&nbsp; I can find it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its rather odd to realize that Columbus =
discovered=20
America in a glorified&nbsp;long boat, and that in bad weather it was =
not only=20
endanger for&nbsp;waves breaking over the stern and swamping it but =
by&nbsp;the=20
Wind against the forecastle pushing the bow under and doing the same=20
thing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November 16, =
2005 10:59=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Ships</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Hi,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm =
trying to get=20
  some ship guidelines together. Could people email me any ship docs =
they may=20
  have, or even thoughts like "The Destinians use C17 Caravels, far in =
advance=20
  of all other shipping".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D352375821-15112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On 16/11/2005, at 10:21, Michael Woodhams wrote:

> On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 09:40, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
>> As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....
>>
>> Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty 
>> much
>> the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?
>>
>> Mandos
>> /s
>
> Yeah, it should be taken away from them and given to witches, who
> specialize in living things and fertility. And it fits the witch
> stereotype - wise woman, sees all, mumble mumble handwave. Besides,
> we^H^Hthey need it to find apprentices - MA 18+ girls are hard to come
> by.

But you will need to increase the base chance and decrease the EM if 
you give it to witches. And make it work better too!

cheers,

clare


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This is obviously all a huge mistake. DA is OWNED by the E&Es, along with
mana sight. Oh, yes and _all_ non-mages get it as an out of college talent. 
At best Earth should only have DE. 

;-D


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Clare Baldock
> Sent: 16 November 2005 13:20
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DA.
> 
> 
> On 16/11/2005, at 10:21, Michael Woodhams wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 09:40, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> >> As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....
> >>
> >> Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty
> >> much
> >> the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?
> >>
> >> Mandos
> >> /s
> >
> > Yeah, it should be taken away from them and given to witches, who
> > specialize in living things and fertility. And it fits the witch
> > stereotype - wise woman, sees all, mumble mumble handwave. Besides,
> > we^H^Hthey need it to find apprentices - MA 18+ girls are hard to come
> > by.
> 
> But you will need to increase the base chance and decrease the EM if
> you give it to witches. And make it work better too!
> 
> cheers,
> 
> clare
> 
> 
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Slightly more seriously, DA is very generic. Namer, Earth, Celestial,
E&E and non-mage DA all work the same way. With 4 DAs in the party, its
whichever player is quickest on the dice.

Can we restrict /focus DA.

For Earth, it would be only "natural" info - that about plants, animals,
rocks, health, etc. So, no college, but lots of "how healthy", and "what
is that animal", and "what happened to the plant".

For Namer, GTN and magic-stuff only. Namers resurrect if they want to
know how healthy someone is.

For Celestial, ??? Aspects, humanity, skills ???

Or similar. Takes away much of the over-powered DA, and gives
differentiation. If someone "has" to have the old DA, and some GM is
loose enough to give it to them, they can have three different talents,
to make sure they have no weaknesses :(.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----

As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....

Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much
the only objects without an aura, why do they have DA?

Mandos


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> Can we restrict /focus DA.
> 
> For Earth, it would be only "natural" info - that about 
> plants, animals, rocks, health, etc. So, no college, but lots 
> of "how healthy", and "what is that animal", and "what 
> happened to the plant".
> 
> For Namer, GTN and magic-stuff only. Namers resurrect if they 
> want to know how healthy someone is.
> 
> For Celestial, ??? Aspects, humanity, skills ???
> 
> Or similar. Takes away much of the over-powered DA, and gives 
> differentiation. If someone "has" to have the old DA, and 
> some GM is loose enough to give it to them, they can have 
> three different talents, to make sure they have no weaknesses :(.

As much as I hate to agree with Andrew...(not sure why this is the case
but appears so historically) ... I concour. 

DA activly removes a lot of the mystique for a game. 

Other options I thought might work are to make it so that at any range
greater than touch it costs 1ft. 

Mandos
/s


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 14:22
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DA. 
> 
> 
> > Can we restrict /focus DA.
> > 
> > For Earth, it would be only "natural" info - that about 
> > plants, animals, rocks, health, etc. So, no college, but lots 
> > of "how healthy", and "what is that animal", and "what 
> > happened to the plant".
> > 
> > For Namer, GTN and magic-stuff only. Namers resurrect if they 
> > want to know how healthy someone is.
> > 
> > For Celestial, ??? Aspects, humanity, skills ???
> > 
> > Or similar. Takes away much of the over-powered DA, and gives 
> > differentiation. If someone "has" to have the old DA, and 
> > some GM is loose enough to give it to them, they can have 
> > three different talents, to make sure they have no weaknesses :(.
> 
> As much as I hate to agree with Andrew...(not sure why this 
> is the case
> but appears so historically) ... I concour. 
> 
> DA activly removes a lot of the mystique for a game. 
> 
> Other options I thought might work are to make it so that at any range
> greater than touch it costs 1ft. 
> 


Interesting ideas.

Using touch for a visual ability seems odd, how about using the 5 feet in
the BC calc?
Note that staring at someone for 5 seconds within 5' is going to get you
noticed in significantly more instances than say 20'.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 14:22</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] DA. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Can we restrict /focus DA.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; For Earth, it would be only =
&quot;natural&quot; info - that about </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; plants, animals, rocks, health, etc. So, =
no college, but lots </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; of &quot;how healthy&quot;, and &quot;what =
is that animal&quot;, and &quot;what </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; happened to the plant&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; For Namer, GTN and magic-stuff only. =
Namers resurrect if they </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; want to know how healthy someone =
is.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; For Celestial, ??? Aspects, humanity, =
skills ???</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Or similar. Takes away much of the =
over-powered DA, and gives </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; differentiation. If someone =
&quot;has&quot; to have the old DA, and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; some GM is loose enough to give it to =
them, they can have </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; three different talents, to make sure they =
have no weaknesses :(.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As much as I hate to agree with Andrew...(not =
sure why this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is the case</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; but appears so historically) ... I concour. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; DA activly removes a lot of the mystique for a =
game. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Other options I thought might work are to make =
it so that at any range</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; greater than touch it costs 1ft. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Interesting ideas.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Using touch for a visual ability seems odd, how about =
using the 5 feet in the BC calc?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that staring at someone for 5 seconds within 5' =
is going to get you noticed in significantly more instances than say =
20'.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5EA4E.AB55F2D4--


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You are all SOOO wrong!!!

Back at the beginning of time when the gods were handing out the magical abilities, they handed
out the spells, the talents and then the rituals.
The spells were apportioned reasonably evenly, except for the Wicca who always seemed to get the
extra whenever more than one copy of a spell was made available.
When the talents came along things got nasty.  The mind mages convinced everyone else that they
wanted DA to distract them all from the Mind mages nabbing the best talents.  The Earth and
Celestial mages cast their Strength spells and used the extra strength to push to the front of the
line (the water mages were still trying to find a drink to cast their Strength spell on), Earth
mages would have got the best DA except that the namers brandished their Hand & a Half swords and
threatened to withhold resurrection and so got let in at the front.
Then everyone else got their talents, and the water mages finally created a puddle to cast their
spell on, and floor sculled just in time to be last in line.

Of course the last laugh is on the Earth mages, they were so busy playing with and gloating over
their new DA that they missed out on all the good rituals.

Cheers, Stephen.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 2:22 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DA. 
> 
> 
> > Can we restrict /focus DA.
[...]
> DA activly removes a lot of the mystique for a game. 

You forget -- it's magic ... it's supposed to enable you to get an insight; next we'll be getting rid of mind-mages becasue telepathy removes the suspense.  Good idea; wrong reason.

However, if you do feel that DA spoils the Game, the obvious alternative would be that when a player says that their character and the GM tells the player exactly what they, as GM, want the player to know.  This would also give a better feel for the vagueness of what many feel an "aura" to be ITRW.  The question-mechanic of DA can be fun ... but getting an answer to a specific question seems weird if that question is only an _incidental_ aspect of the being/thing  (e.g. *Q: "How well can it see someone who is Rank 16 invisible?") and ignores stuff that really is essential to what the observed target is  (e.g., *A: "It is a corporeal servant of the Elder Gods, devoted to wreaking havoc on all that is nice.  It is immune to physical attack, and lives on a mixed diet of rats and the souls of mages") 


> Other options I thought might work are to make it so that at any range
> greater than touch it costs 1ft.

No, no, NO!  The only reason my Namer ranked the talent is to ensure that he could DA from as far away as possible.   Obviously a certain amount of balance is sensible -- It would seem silly to DA a leaf or a drop of blood from 100 feet and expect an answer [which is the case in the current rules]; but if you can see a thing clearly why can't you see its aura with sufficient clarity?   To introduce an arbitrary range of 1' is irresplsible & inconsistent -- although I have no problems if a GM gave that limit to a one-off talent of "feel aura" or a new magic item.

regards, Michael


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There is a discussion going on in one of the Wiki Pages that I thought
should be brought to a Wider Audience. Comments seperated by ----- Not
all comments atributed.


I always thought of Demons as being innately evil. A have never before
seen a "Church" dedicated to the worship of a demon. I have encountered
secret groups, hidden brotherhoods and temples dripping in blood, but
never a Church.

I gather that there is now a "Church" of Seir in Seagate itself. Why
haven't the Michaelites simply razed the place to the ground? They seem
to work fairly hard to wipe out anyone pacted to demons. It seems hard
to believe that they would allow the public worship of a Demon in the
middle of Seagate.

Why does the Duke allow this? Can we assume that the Duke is happy to
allow Demon worship in Carzala? Is it time for a new Duke?

Andrew 10:02, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)
-----

I see them more as an aspect of a pantheon, from the perspective of the
average person who has not met an avatar they are just another deity and
will have churches and followers etc.
I also make the assumption that the rise of the Church of Light in the
western kingdom is recent (last 1-200 years) after being relativly
ignored prior and as the church has spread it's power over the Western
Kingodom so it's presence is felt more. Seagate being on the frontiers
is still in the process of being cvonverted and so sentiments are
changing, thus no PoD temples in New Seagate.
Some of the demons are definatly considered Evil and are likely to be
cults that are removed from society for antisocial behaviour but other
may go under various names and covers, particularly the Water Demons,
Sailors praying to gods of the sea don't know the specifics of the
deomns powers just that it is their God.
I don't believe that a simple Black/White deliniation is a good thing
when we have the range of Powers that we do. Removing them all and
having a simple God/Satan Black white thing could be an option but I am
not keen. I think it is better that they co-exist in varying shades of
Grey and a less intolerant feel to the PoL.

Mandos 11:08, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)
-----
I've always considered Demons to be absolutely evil with fantasy genre,
the dq world included. Id consider any Avatar with a 'gray' nature not
to be a demon, but some other type of power. Before you can answer "Why
does the Duke allow this" you need to have the nature of Demons clearly
defined within the environment we play, and consistently applied.

Many guild members are demon worshipers, many openly acknowledgement
their affiliation. It appears that guild member are allowed speak
against, harass, interfere with and even *attack* PoL worshipers
pursuing Demon worshipers
(http://dq.sf.org.nz/archive/2004/2004-09/2004-09-20.html) with no
repercussions from the Guild or Duke. Considering this it doesn't seem
unreasonable that demonic cults are openly active in Seagate.

-----

I also would prefer not to have a Good/Evil setup. However, the demons,
which includes the self-styled 'Powers of Light' in DQs cosmology are
powerful, ascended entities with goals and purposes that are utterly
alien to mortals. 'Utterly alien' can often mean 'callosly indifferent
to' the fates of mortals that they manipulate to achieve these goals.
The demons are wierd and amoral, thus very dangerous. Besides, look at
most of the Gods from mythology. They're not nice and you'ld be hard
pressed to attach good or even evil labels to them. And why havn't the
PoLys sacked and raised the church of Sier in Seagate? Why hasn't your
character done anything about it? A daemon church in the middle of
Seagate? Screams 'adventure hook' pretty loud. I thought we were trying
to promote character driven quests/motivations. Open the box and peek
inside :-)

The demons are dangerous and inimical to mortal civilisations. But then
so are the Gods. Go read the Illiad, Ramayana or even the Old Testament.
It's really a matter of choosing your poison.

William
-----
The other problem we have is that Demons and Angels in DQ are not God
created Good/Evil beings, they are mortal entities that have risen to
immortality. Why on earth would that define someone specifically as
Evil, most of them probably are and as William mentions they will have a
callous impression of 'Mere mortals' and may seek to use them in an evil
fashion but they will work to their own ends that may be merely selfish
rather than absolutely Evil. Particulary given that a number of GM's
play the PoL as a pack of Evil selfish bastards as well it seems a
little off to not allow the PoD a range of options.

Mandos 15:23, 16 Nov 2005 (NZDT)


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In principal I agree, if we were designing a new game I'd be jumping up and down demanding
differentiation.  But any change to DA needs to be considered in conjunction with how it is used
and expected to be used in our campaign.
A few years ago it was theoretically downpowered a bit by making it more generic.  Some GMs played
this and some forgot or chose not to.  Many players complained when the reduced information was
given to them, particularly as the change is being sporadically applied.

And some GMs assume DA will be available as a device by which to give players certain information.

It doesn't happen very often but it can make some adventures slow and painful when you manage to
gather a party with no DAs.

We assume and rely on DA in our campaign and that needs to be factored in to any potential change
to it.

Ideally DA should be a tool to enable players to be clever, currently it is a crutch that replaces
many mundane investigative abilities and the need to be clever.


I think that a FT cost on DA will simply increase the number of gut busters we consume.  Having
paid 1FT for his DA for several of his early years, Engalton may be able to comment on how it
affected his use of DA.

Specialising DA would have people questing for the missing bits and befriending Celestials, Earth
Mages, and Namers so they could always have one of each in the party.

I've always been fond of limited information for a quick (pulse) DA then getting more by studying
the subject for longer.  E.g. Pulse DA and get aura strength and general question (e.g. Magic,
Type = Curse), study for 1 minute and get 1 clarifying question (e.g. Effect of Curse =
Lycanthropy), study for 10 minutes and get another clarifying question (e.g. Trigger Conditions =
Full Moon).

The other way would be to apply the same limits based on distance, get closer to get more info.

Or maybe you get info from your area of DA in a pulse and have to spend time to get info from
other areas.

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> Slightly more seriously, DA is very generic. Namer, Earth, Celestial, E&E and non-mage DA all
> work the same way. With 4 DAs in the party, its whichever player is quickest on the dice.
>
> Can we restrict /focus DA.
>
> For Earth, it would be only "natural" info - that about plants, animals, rocks, health, etc. So,
> no college, but lots of "how healthy", and "what is that animal", and "what happened to the
> plant".
>
> For Namer, GTN and magic-stuff only. Namers resurrect if they want to know how healthy someone
> is.
>
> For Celestial, ??? Aspects, humanity, skills ???
>
> Or similar. Takes away much of the over-powered DA, and gives
> differentiation. If someone "has" to have the old DA, and some GM is loose enough to give it to
> them, they can have three different talents, to make sure they have no weaknesses :(.
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> As I wandered home the other day a thought struck me....
>
> Given that Earth Mages primarily deal with Earth and Stone, pretty much the only objects without
> an aura, why do they have DA?
>
> Mandos
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are no
longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write ups the
Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is not
the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I think is
worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the 'bad guys'
to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,'
I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or mock them. IMO
this attitude is what creates the wrong feeling for powers in the game.
If changing this doc would make people respect or fear the ArchAngels,
great. If not, what problem is it solving?

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels



On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are
no longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write
ups the Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is
not the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I
think is worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the
'bad guys' to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,' I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Andrew wrote:
If not, what problem is it solving?

I think that having the group of 'good guys' in the champaign as technically
Demons is a mistake.
Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:59 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or mock them. IMO
this attitude is what creates the wrong feeling for powers in the game.
If changing this doc would make people respect or fear the ArchAngels,
great. If not, what problem is it solving?

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels



On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are
no longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write
ups the Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is
not the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I
think is worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the
'bad guys' to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,' I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Its just metaphysics.

The attitude of the characters and the NPCs is what creates the flavour.
If changing the metaphysics will change the players' attitudes, then
great, but I think that we live in a post-christian society where (many
of) the players don't have awe of spiritual beings of any name, and so
their characters don't. With awe comes a need for my-lord-and-me vs
them, good/bad, black/white. Otherwise the angels, demons, etc are all
just despised politicians, in whatever divisions you make them.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Andrew wrote:
If not, what problem is it solving?

I think that having the group of 'good guys' in the champaign as
technically Demons is a mistake. Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:59 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or mock them. IMO
this attitude is what creates the wrong feeling for powers in the game.
If changing this doc would make people respect or fear the ArchAngels,
great. If not, what problem is it solving?

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels



On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are
no longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write
ups the Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is
not the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I
think is worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the
'bad guys' to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,' I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I think it is more that some GMs have been using the PoL like thugs.

At the same time they do not display the 'good works' that I think accompany
them, protecting people, healing the sick etc
It does not have to be the main part or heavy impact on the game - but I
feel it is of benifit to have it take place in the background and seen by
characters - so that they can see 'good works' being done.

This is with the understanding that the 'PoL' do in fact do good works.
Often the actions/beliefs of followers of the 'PoL' are not respected
because they are not seen at all.

Jono

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Its just metaphysics.

The attitude of the characters and the NPCs is what creates the flavour.
If changing the metaphysics will change the players' attitudes, then
great, but I think that we live in a post-christian society where (many
of) the players don't have awe of spiritual beings of any name, and so
their characters don't. With awe comes a need for my-lord-and-me vs
them, good/bad, black/white. Otherwise the angels, demons, etc are all
just despised politicians, in whatever divisions you make them.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Andrew wrote:
If not, what problem is it solving?

I think that having the group of 'good guys' in the champaign as
technically Demons is a mistake. Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:59 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or mock them. IMO
this attitude is what creates the wrong feeling for powers in the game.
If changing this doc would make people respect or fear the ArchAngels,
great. If not, what problem is it solving?

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels



On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are
no longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write
ups the Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is
not the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I
think is worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the
'bad guys' to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,' I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or
> mock them. IMO this attitude is what creates the wrong
> feeling for powers in the game. If changing this doc would
> make people respect or fear the ArchAngels, great. If not,
> what problem is it solving?
>
> Andrew
>

It's not the powers but their minions that has caused most
of the bad feeling. More PCs have run afoul of PoLies than
actual Powers.

It is also the result of our own modern mindsets. The PoL
are just as accountable as anyone else.

Solutions

More balanced PoLy NPCs. Less cheese in those NPCs (eg full
anti-magic protection is cheesy and annoying to players of
mages). A tendancy for those NPCs to be willing to aid bold
adventurers instead of treating them all like scum. And for
that aid to be generous, orignating from a tradition of
largess towards those who also keep the dark powers at bay.

Eg

A party comes into town. The local witchsniffer gives them a
once over and vets them to the rest of the PoLies. If clean,
they offer help and aid to the party and it's quest.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> On a side note to this;
> I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the
> GM Powers 2.0 (and associated documents) to change that
> the Powers of Light (PoL) are no longer be Demons, but are
> equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write ups the Type
> should also change.
>
> I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some
> people, and is not the intended description. I agree this
> is a minor change, but one I think is worth doing. I for
> one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the 'bad guys' to
> be bad.
>
> Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
> Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are
> technically Demons themselves,'
> I think this part needs to be changed.
>
> What do others think?
>
> Jono
>
Then have the minions of the POL be good guys and not just
another set of thugs that harrass the party.
It's like the idiocy you used to get in D&D modules where
all the paladins were always complete assholes.
Make the good guys good and mabye the PCs will then regard
them as such.

Have the PoLy temples be the main place to find a healer, or
a curse removal. To often the PoLies are no bloody use and
so, big suprise they are regarded as being so.

Also, scrap most of the damn cheesy abilities every PoLy and
their horse has. They annoy players as it sets up a case of
one set of rules for PCs, and another for NPCs. This, more
than anything else irritates me.

Have them use existing, in game abilities. This means making
many of them 'mages'. Of course the NPCs themselves don't
regard themselves as mages but as holy men who know many
effective prayers and blessings. Of course these 'prayers'
and 'blessings' work just as any other college up to and
including being counterspelled.

Eg A holy warrior of Michael has been blessed with keen
vision at night, the ability to see into the hearts of other
men, can bring light into dark places, can erect a holy
barrier, can garb himself in dazzling rainments and bless
his weapon so it glows with power to vanquish the unholy. He
can also bear himself upon the wings of angels, summon
Michael's own darts to strike down the foe and even crush
the wicked under the wieght of their own sins.

Does this NPC need a host of special powers or the
designation 'Solar celestial Mage'?

Give such a NPC 'investment' and he can bless PC weapons
which shall make them able to 'invoke' the blessing a number
of times.

The same applies for priestly E+Es, Namers (witchsniffers),
fire mages and even necromancers.

William


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I'm good and my worst enemies are evil.  I believe that most people (including my enemies)
essentially believe the same.
Most of those who do the most heinous wrongs believed them to be right from their perpespective at
the time.
Fanatics of any faction are usually seen as evil because they have chosen to put their beliefs
before those of established society.  Our society believes strongly in "the sanctity of life". 
Truely evil fanatics are those who consider the teachings & will of their god as more important
than any mortal life (often including their own).

I like to see that represented in the game.

The moderate POLs wandering around pushing their beliefs but not too strongly against the norms of
society.  The fanatic POLs wander around pushing their beliefs regardless of what society & local
lords think.
Just like adventurers, wandering around trying to be heroic and make money regardless of what the
current society thinks is right.  No wonder we are so often branded as evil fanatics.  OMG, I just
realised, we're the Americans!!! ;-)


On another tack... I've always thought of the main difference between the POLs and PODs to be
their origin.  PODs killed lots of people to gain power for an individual, POLs are an
amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and created by a suicide cult - "giving
themselves to a greater cause".
And naturally both consider the others method and motives to be evil.
And in our society they would both be considered evil or mentally unstable at best.

Cheers, Stephen.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> I think that having the group of 'good guys' in the champaign as
technically
> Demons is a mistake.
> Jono

I see Jonos point.
We are defining  ArchAngels as Demons, what we need to do is to define
Beings of Power as transcended mortals or groups of mortals, and then
differentiate the theological difference between the ArchAngels as Beings of
Power and the Demons.

The PCs attitude towards the powers is set by experience, good or bad.
 Demons give kool powers to their followers and there are more of them to
follow. In the dark places where adventures walk they turn up and tempt us,
some are weak willed and tempted.
Arch Angels themselves are rarely used by GMs, and the attitudes of players
tends to be towards the Church rather than the Arch Angels themselves
The Western Churches attitude towards Adventures often leaves the PC feeling
put upon. As William said Parties get treated like scum.
Why should Thorn who is a God certified Hero and one of the Good guys with
many deeds to her credit, have any respect for a church that labels her
suspect and treats her and her friends like dirt.?
Seir at least respects our ability to kick his ass from time to time.

Helen


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Andrew said:
'Its just metaphysics.'

If you do not object to the 'small change' - then I would like to see it
made.
I see it as helpful - you do not.
If you dont think it is unhelpful then lets make this small change happen.

Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Its just metaphysics.

The attitude of the characters and the NPCs is what creates the flavour.
If changing the metaphysics will change the players' attitudes, then
great, but I think that we live in a post-christian society where (many
of) the players don't have awe of spiritual beings of any name, and so
their characters don't. With awe comes a need for my-lord-and-me vs
them, good/bad, black/white. Otherwise the angels, demons, etc are all
just despised politicians, in whatever divisions you make them.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 4:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Andrew wrote:
If not, what problem is it solving?

I think that having the group of 'good guys' in the champaign as
technically Demons is a mistake. Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:59 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


Most adventurers regard the PoL as mildly irritating, or mock them. IMO
this attitude is what creates the wrong feeling for powers in the game.
If changing this doc would make people respect or fear the ArchAngels,
great. If not, what problem is it solving?

Andrew


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Wednesday, 16 November 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels



On a side note to this;
I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are
no longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write
ups the Type should also change.

I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is
not the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I
think is worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the
'bad guys' to be bad.

Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
themselves,' I think this part needs to be changed.

What do others think?

Jono


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On 11/16/05, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
>
> I see Jonos point.
> We are defining ArchAngels as Demons, what we need to do is to define
> Beings of Power as transcended mortals or groups of mortals, and then
> differentiate the theological difference between the ArchAngels as Beings
> of
> Power and the Demons.


Yep, pretty sure that's the solution that Jono's favouring -- change the
generic term for that type of being from demon (little "d") to "Transcended=
"
(or some such), and then divide the group of transcended beings into Demons
/ PoD and Angels / PoL.

The Western Churches attitude towards Adventures often leaves the PC feelin=
g
> put upon. As William said Parties get treated like scum.


That could be because many Guild parties are scum, and consist of dubious
characters, and even demon worshippers. What should the attitude of the
Church be?

Why should Thorn who is a God certified Hero and one of the Good guys with
> many deeds to her credit, have any respect for a church that labels her
> suspect and treats her and her friends like dirt.?


Personally I think the whole PoL =3D "magic is evil" mindset has been part =
of
this... and as other posters have mentioned has lead to the PoL types have =
a
plethora of weirdo non-magical magical abilities that could have been
perhaps better handled by giving them colleges.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Helen Saggers</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">helen@owbn.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
I see Jonos point.<br>We are defining&nbsp;&nbsp;ArchAngels as Demons, what=
 we need to do is to define<br>Beings of Power as transcended mortals or gr=
oups of mortals, and then<br>differentiate the theological difference betwe=
en the ArchAngels as Beings of
<br>Power and the Demons.</blockquote><div><br>Yep, pretty sure that's the =
solution that Jono's favouring -- change the generic term for that type of =
being from demon (little &quot;d&quot;) to &quot;Transcended&quot; (or some=
 such), and then divide the group of transcended beings into Demons / PoD a=
nd Angels / PoL. =20
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">The=
 Western Churches attitude towards Adventures often leaves the PC feeling<b=
r>
put upon. As William said Parties get treated like scum.</blockquote><div><=
br>That could be because many Guild parties are scum, and consist of dubiou=
s characters, and even demon worshippers.&nbsp; What should the attitude of=
 the Church be?
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Why=
 should Thorn who is a God certified Hero and one of the Good guys with<br>
many deeds to her credit, have any respect for a church that labels her<br>=
suspect and treats her and her friends like dirt.?</blockquote><div><br>Per=
sonally I think the whole PoL =3D &quot;magic is evil&quot; mindset has bee=
n part of this... and as other posters have mentioned has lead to the PoL t=
ypes have a plethora of weirdo non-magical magical abilities that could hav=
e been perhaps better handled by giving them colleges.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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On 11/16/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> IPOLs are an amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and
> created by a suicide cult...


Errmm... rather than "suicide cult" could we perhaps emphasize "sacrificed
themselves heroically for a high and noble cause".

Sort of the difference between "died in battle, fighting to the last agains=
t
the darkness" vs. "drank kool-aid".

:-)

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On 11/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</=
a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
IPOLs are an amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and cre=
ated by a suicide cult...</blockquote><div><br>Errmm... rather than &quot;s=
uicide cult&quot; could we perhaps emphasize &quot;sacrificed themselves he=
roically for a high and noble cause&quot;.
<br><br>Sort of the difference between &quot;died in battle, fighting to th=
e last against the darkness&quot; vs. &quot;drank kool-aid&quot;.<br><br>:-=
)<br></div></div><br>

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Jonathan Bean -TME wrote:

>On a side note to this;
>I would like to get Martin to (if willing) to re-write the GM Powers 2.0
>(and associated documents) to change that the Powers of Light (PoL) are no
>longer be Demons, but are equal in power to Demons. In the PoL write ups the
>Type should also change.
>
>I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is not
>the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I think is
>worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the 'bad guys'
>to be bad.
>
>Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
>Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
>themselves,'
>I think this part needs to be changed.
>
>What do others think?
>
>Jono
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
>  
>
I do not think any change is necessary to the powers  document.

As it now stands the PoL are seen as just as bad as the PoD; which 
accurately reflects  the campaign history -  they both want your soul 
just use different methods to get it.

Changing the PoL to be "good" as opposed to the PoD being "evil" 
oversimplifies the situation and takes it too close to our world and the 
Christian Church for my liking.

Scott Whitaker


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Though I must admit to having always considered something closer to the
latter than to the former to have been the genesis of the PoL.

A gigantic ritual, days, even, months of preparation.
Massive defenses against interruption and corruption of intent and/or focus=
.

Especially as I also believe that the PoL came after the PoD. That their
raison d'etre was essentially "That which will oppose the PoD"

TTFN, Struan.

On 11/16/05, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 11/16/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
> >
> > IPOLs are an amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and
> > created by a suicide cult...
>
>
> Errmm... rather than "suicide cult" could we perhaps emphasize "sacrifice=
d
> themselves heroically for a high and noble cause".
>
> Sort of the difference between "died in battle, fighting to the last
> against the darkness" vs. "drank kool-aid".
>
> :-)
>
>

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Though I must admit to having always considered something closer to the
latter than to the former to have been the genesis of the PoL.<br>
<br>
A gigantic ritual, days, even, months of preparation. <br>
Massive defenses against interruption and corruption of intent and/or focus=
.<br>
<br>
Especially as I also believe that the PoL came after the PoD. That
their raison d'etre was essentially &quot;That which will oppose the PoD&qu=
ot;<br>
<br>
TTFN, Struan.<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/16/05, <b class=
=3D"gmail_sendername">Martin Dickson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dicks=
on@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); marg=
in: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
On 11/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"ret=
urn top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</=
a>&gt; wrote:
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">
IPOLs are an amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and cre=
ated by a suicide cult...</blockquote><div><br>Errmm... rather than &quot;s=
uicide cult&quot; could we perhaps emphasize &quot;sacrificed themselves he=
roically for a high and noble cause&quot;.
<br><br>Sort of the difference between &quot;died in battle, fighting to th=
e last against the darkness&quot; vs. &quot;drank kool-aid&quot;.<br><br>:-=
)<br></div></div><br>

</blockquote></div><br>

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Jono:
> This is with the understanding that the 'PoL' do in fact do good
works.
> Often the actions/beliefs of followers of the 'PoL' are not respected
> because they are not seen at all.

Scott::
> As it now stands the PoL are seen as just as bad as the PoD; which 
> accurately reflects  the campaign history -  they both want your soul 
> just use different methods to get it.


This really is the problem - different GMs have very different views of
the PoL, and each in their game is all-powerful, and can have the PoL
act according to their own ideas, without consistency to other GMs. 

We can vote on rules and then (mostly) all follow them. Can't we vote on
the nature of angels and demons?

My opinion is that PoL are mostly good and PoD are mostly bad. Pure good
and pure evil are boring, so each side gets a bit of a mixture. The PoL
are tarnished by intolerance and some followers may be motivated more by
power then spiritual matters (but they falsly justify their actions to
themselves as promoting the greater good.) Some of the demons help the
poor and punish oath-breakers, but often as a side-effect of unpleasant
goals, such as encouraging theft.


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>That could be because many Guild parties are scum, and consist of dubious
characters, and even demon >worshippers.  What should the attitude of the
Church be?

Towards obivous Scum and known demon worshippers, excactly what it is, as
for the rest of us couldn't word of the good deeds done by adventures at
least earn us the benifit of the doult and  something other than a hostle
reception.
I just don't think is fair to complain that PC don't have good reactions to
followers PoL when all as other wise good PC all we have ever had is
hostility from them just for being Adventures.

>>Why should Thorn who is a God certified Hero and one of the Good guys with
>>many deeds to her credit, have any respect for a church that labels her
>>suspect and treats her and her friends like dirt.?

>Personally I think the whole PoL = "magic is evil" mindset has been part of
this... and as other posters have >mentioned has lead to the PoL types have
a plethora of weirdo non-magical magical abilities that could have >been
perhaps better handled by giving them colleges.

Yes the magic is part of the problem adventures with magic and using magical
items get the short shift for having "magic" but if it was harder to spot
the "magic" from the mircles worked by the Heroes of the PoL, we non demon
following magic users might at least get the benifit of the doult.
If you read though the Arch Angel stuff and their position on magic its that
they are against the unresponcable use of magic not magic as such. So why
can't their followers have collage magics.

Helen


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So where do gods fit into this? 

POL = just the 4 (5) archangels right?

The elven gods, titans etc are not POL, they are 'other' Powers. Right?

If we are going to tout for a 'powers' document, then perhaps an
all-encompassing approach would be helpful.

Or not. 

> 
> My opinion is that PoL are mostly good and PoD are mostly bad. Pure good
> and pure evil are boring, so each side gets a bit of a mixture. The PoL
> are tarnished by intolerance and some followers may be motivated more by
> power then spiritual matters (but they falsly justify their actions to
> themselves as promoting the greater good.) Some of the demons help the
> poor and punish oath-breakers, but often as a side-effect of unpleasant
> goals, such as encouraging theft.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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On several of the raised points.
   
  1:  Changing the PoL to not be classed as Demons.
          This is not just a small change but actually a major game affecting change, as this classification means they are currently affected by things such as wiccan amulets which increase magic resistance to 'demonic magic' and magic weapons out there which do extra damage against demons.  Demon is a creature type as far as DQ has defined it, not an evil planar being, we need to get rid of our modern judgement of the world and view what the game set used the word as.
   
   
  2:  'Good' deeds.
        Powers do 'good' deeds for their followers and those who can help them.  If your out to drift in a storm at sea, and you call out to a water power of darkness to help you, chances are they will help you at a price.  Much the same as the Powers of Light will help the poor, but expect them to come to church and pray, and join musters to fight the dark circle in return.
  It is a magical world, animating dead corpses is not inherently 'evil' in DQ.  It's an unpleasant thing which is frowned upon by the civilization that we live in, but DQ doesn't have absolute morals, so lets not try and assign D&D Good and Evil alignments to things.  Good in DQ is good for you, Evil is bad for you, thus all good and evil is relative as far as DQ is concerned.  The powers of light and darkness are names the groups have taken upon themselves really, and their press corps are to blame for any misconceptions this may cause.
   
  That said, I would like to see the powers of light work in a more normal way, and possibly also a generic 'consecration' definition that can be used by any power or god which defines how it affects people pacted to the generic power, neutrals, and people pacted to specifically opposing powers.(and for specifically opposing I'm not really talking PoL vs PoD, as a lot of that isn't specific, just generic dislike.  But things like Fire powers vs Water powers etc).  So that people have an idea what they are walking into when someone says 'consecrated ground'  And preferably nothing that says 'Take 5d10 damage every pulse' or anything silly like that, but negatives to base chance like evil eye or something similar.


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.
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<DIV id=RTEContent>On several of the raised points.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>1:&nbsp; Changing the PoL to not be classed as Demons.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; This is not just a small change but actually a major game affecting change, as this classification means they are currently affected by things such as wiccan amulets which increase magic resistance to 'demonic magic' and magic weapons out there which do extra damage against demons.&nbsp; Demon is a creature type as far as DQ has defined it, not an evil planar being, we need to get rid of our modern judgement of the world and view what the game set used the word as.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>2:&nbsp; 'Good' deeds.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; Powers do 'good' deeds for their followers and those who can help them.&nbsp; If your out to drift in a storm at sea, and you call out to a water power of darkness to help you, chances are they will help you at a
 price.&nbsp; Much the same as the Powers of Light will help the poor, but expect them to come to church and pray, and join musters to fight the dark circle in return.</DIV>  <DIV>It is a magical world, animating dead corpses is not inherently 'evil' in DQ.&nbsp; It's an unpleasant thing which is frowned upon by the civilization that we live in, but DQ doesn't have absolute morals, so lets not try and assign D&amp;D Good and Evil alignments to things.&nbsp; Good in DQ is good for you, Evil is bad for you, thus all good and evil is relative as far as DQ is concerned.&nbsp; The powers of light and darkness are names the groups have taken upon themselves really, and their press corps are to blame for any misconceptions this may cause.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>That said, I would like to see the powers of light work in a more normal way, and possibly also a generic 'consecration' definition that can be used by any power or god which defines how it affects people pacted to the
 generic power, neutrals, and people pacted to specifically opposing powers.(and for specifically opposing I'm not really talking PoL vs PoD, as a lot of that isn't specific, just generic dislike.&nbsp; But things like Fire powers vs Water powers etc).&nbsp; So that people have an idea what they are walking into when someone says 'consecrated ground'&nbsp; And preferably nothing that says 'Take 5d10 damage every pulse' or anything silly like that, but negatives to base chance like evil eye or something similar.</DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> 
<a 
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/tag/newmovies/**http%3A%2F%2Fau.movies.yahoo.com%2F"> 
The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.</a>
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