As I suspected we have a number of varying views on this. 

I have been thinking of a few solutions to this problem, unfortunatly
most of them require at least a broad group consensus, something I
suspect may be impossible...

Previously we had very poor methods of infomration discemination, this
is no longer the case so it may be an appropriate time to radically
re-think so of the past knowledge and then disceminate a new reality. 

We could stay with the current Demon Angel documents and beliefs giving
us a few options. 

1. PoL are Good, PoD are evil cults.

Benefits: We can base it on historical christianity so lots of good
sources for how things work.
Downsides: It leaves a very bland single religion based world. 

2. PoL are selfless, PoD are selfish.

Benefits: As similar creatures the range of use for these entities is
increased and normalised, churches, religions and so forth are part of
both sides. This increases the chances for antagonism between the groups
and so potential flavour. 
Downsides: The normalisation of Demons/Angels weakens their effectivness
as greater powers. 

3. Both sides are the same thing and get treated as ex-mortals with
their own agenda's.

Benefits: Easier to explain actions as the goals of ex-mortals are
easier for we poor mortals to comprehend as GM's. 
Downsides: Many characters are based on the Goodness of the PoL and this
may disrupt that. 

Or alternativly we could take the opportunity to rewrite the Powers and
work out what we want and then shape the game to fit. Rationalisations
of how this occours could be a campaign story for a year or two. 

Options here are....

4. Move to a single God, single Church view. Amalgamate the PoL and make
the 4(5) branches simply arms of one church without a specific entity as
the patron. 
5. Remove the PoL and PoD and start again with a whole new pantheon. 
6. Raise the PoL and PoD to Gods and amalgamate into a single large
pantheon giving each area's of influence. E.G. Sier is a Patron to
Thieves, Uriel is a God of Justice, Bune an ancient Dragon God, Ipos a
God of Luck and Chance etc. 
7. Pick seven or eight of the more common Demons/Angels and create a
smaller Pantheon. 
8. Something else I havn't thought of :-0) 

I think we need a straw poll on what we want to see from our religions
in DQ and then work from there to create it. 

Mandos
/s


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> I think we need a straw poll on what we want to see from our 
> religions in DQ and then work from there to create it. 

Oh yeah, my vote would be for 6. Or 2 as a distant second. 

Mandos
/s


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I'll weigh in with a strong vote for 2 and 3 together.

PoD want they think is what's best for themselves whereas the PoL want what
they think is best for us. A strong level of "Look what I did to make sure
you get to do the right thing. So do the right thing or else" :)

TTFN, Struan

On 11/17/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>
> > I think we need a straw poll on what we want to see from our
> > religions in DQ and then work from there to create it.
>
> Oh yeah, my vote would be for 6. Or 2 as a distant second.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
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>

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I'll weigh in with a strong vote for 2 and 3 together.<br>
<br>
PoD want they think is what's best for themselves whereas the PoL want
what they think is best for us. A strong level of &quot;Look what I did to
make sure you get to do the right thing. So do the right thing or else&quot=
;
:)<br>
<br>
TTFN, Struan<br><br><div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 11/17/05, <b class=
=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:MandosM@a=
dhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0=
pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>&gt; I think we need a straw poll on what we want to see from our<br>&g=
t; religions in DQ and then work from there to create it.<br><br>Oh yeah, m=
y vote would be for 6. Or 2 as a distant second.<br><br>Mandos<br>/s<br>
<br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.=
org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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Martin said:
Personally I think the whole PoL = "magic is evil" mindset has been part of
this... and as other posters have mentioned has lead to the PoL types have a
plethora of weirdo non-magical magical abilities that could have been
perhaps better handled by giving them colleges.

Helen said:
Yes the magic is part of the problem adventures with magic and using magical
items get the short shift for having "magic" but if it was harder to spot
the "magic" from the mircles worked by the Heroes of the PoL, we non demon
following magic users might at least get the benifit of the doult. If you
read though the Arch Angel stuff and their position on magic its that
they are against the unresponcable use of magic not magic as such. So why
can't their followers have collage magics.

Michael said:
This really is the problem - different GMs have very different views of the
PoL, and each in their game is all-powerful, and can have the PoL act
according to their own ideas, without consistency to other GMs.
------------

I tend to think along the same lines as Helen in that the 'PoL do have a
range, and differing views on magic use. As far as I can tell GMs are just
using the PoL like they have have seen them being used in games they have
played on. As groups have a wide range of characters, often the parties will
come into contact with the PoL and have a falling out, and its a slippery
slop where it is turning into the norm. I think GMs could benifit from
re-reading the Powers 2.0 document, and run with it.

Jono


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I dont think that this is worth voting on in its current state.
I think if the problems with it all are not such a simple fix as outlined
below.

Jono

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 8:12 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


As I suspected we have a number of varying views on this.

I have been thinking of a few solutions to this problem, unfortunatly
most of them require at least a broad group consensus, something I
suspect may be impossible...

Previously we had very poor methods of infomration discemination, this
is no longer the case so it may be an appropriate time to radically
re-think so of the past knowledge and then disceminate a new reality.

We could stay with the current Demon Angel documents and beliefs giving
us a few options.

1. PoL are Good, PoD are evil cults.

Benefits: We can base it on historical christianity so lots of good
sources for how things work.
Downsides: It leaves a very bland single religion based world.

2. PoL are selfless, PoD are selfish.

Benefits: As similar creatures the range of use for these entities is
increased and normalised, churches, religions and so forth are part of
both sides. This increases the chances for antagonism between the groups
and so potential flavour.
Downsides: The normalisation of Demons/Angels weakens their effectivness
as greater powers.

3. Both sides are the same thing and get treated as ex-mortals with
their own agenda's.

Benefits: Easier to explain actions as the goals of ex-mortals are
easier for we poor mortals to comprehend as GM's.
Downsides: Many characters are based on the Goodness of the PoL and this
may disrupt that.

Or alternativly we could take the opportunity to rewrite the Powers and
work out what we want and then shape the game to fit. Rationalisations
of how this occours could be a campaign story for a year or two.

Options here are....

4. Move to a single God, single Church view. Amalgamate the PoL and make
the 4(5) branches simply arms of one church without a specific entity as
the patron.
5. Remove the PoL and PoD and start again with a whole new pantheon.
6. Raise the PoL and PoD to Gods and amalgamate into a single large
pantheon giving each area's of influence. E.G. Sier is a Patron to
Thieves, Uriel is a God of Justice, Bune an ancient Dragon God, Ipos a
God of Luck and Chance etc.
7. Pick seven or eight of the more common Demons/Angels and create a
smaller Pantheon.
8. Something else I havn't thought of :-0)

I think we need a straw poll on what we want to see from our religions
in DQ and then work from there to create it.

Mandos
/s


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All depends on how you feel about them as to how you describe it.
If you think the POLs are good then they dedicated their lives to higher ideals and fighting the
darkness.  If you don't then they are a death cult dedicated to interfering in other peoples
business.

Both are true but phrased with emotive language from different perspectives.

I hate the old D&D Good vs Evil, I would prefer the (moderate) followers and advocates of both
sides to seem reasonable and rational when you see things explained from their perspective.



Martin Dickson said:
> On 11/16/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>>
>> IPOLs are an amalgamation of souls bought together in common belief and created by a suicide
>> cult...
>
>
> Errmm... rather than "suicide cult" could we perhaps emphasize "sacrificed themselves heroically
> for a high and noble cause".
>
> Sort of the difference between "died in battle, fighting to the last against the darkness" vs.
> "drank kool-aid".
>
> :-)


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> I dont think that this is worth voting on in its current 
> state. I think if the problems with it all are not such a 
> simple fix as outlined below.

Without knowing what we want want from the Powers there is no way to
drive forward. 

The Powers 2.0 document is simply one of the options detailed and if the
bulk of people want to go a different way it will be ignored. 

We need to have a direction. Once we have that direction we can create
the documents/rationalisations etc that reinforce that. Creating the
documents first is just a waste of everyones time. 

Mandos
/s


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I like the idea that the demons always seem more reasonable, but deep
down, you know they are leading you astray. It creates a nice feeling to
me as GM and player. They have "wise" presidents. When they turn up, you
are automatically their friend, emboldeded, etc so on - they are
*charming*. The AA's or their agents don't sugar-coat stuff as much, and
ask you to take the hard path occasionally. It creates a nice moral
tension. Easy Path to Power vs. Unpopular Greater Good.

I think the AA's are (lower-case) good, although a little strict or
misguided at times, and the Demons are (mixed-case) evil - from slightly
corrupt but well-meaning through to insane multi-headed fire-breathing
baby-eating.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin

I hate the old D&D Good vs Evil, I would prefer the (moderate) followers
and advocates of both sides to seem reasonable and rational when you see
things explained from their perspective.


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On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 08:12, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

> 2. PoL are selfless, PoD are selfish.

Here's a variant on that, with theological handwavy support:

A mortal is able to become a demon by suitable magic and the sacrifice
of many people. Hence a demon has the mind of a single individual, and
one who has been very ruthless to become a demon. They follow their own
agenda, which may or may not be harmful to mortals, but given their
background it is much more likely to be harmful than not.

A large group of mortals are able to become an archangel by suitable
magic and volantary self sacrifice. Hence an angel is an amalgam of many
minds, of people who believed in a cause sufficiently to give their
lives and souls to it (both at the point of initial creation, and later
pacted mortals when they die.) An archangel is an embodiment of an
ideology which is able to inspire total devotion in a large number of
individuals. (Angels are subcomittees of an archangel - representing
some aspect of the archangel. We could say angels are the original
beings created as above who then further amalgamated into archangels if
we prefer this.)

A problem with this is we'd expect more not-very-nice angels/archangels,
especially hard-line nationalistic ones (imagine a Nazi or Maoist angel)
and these haven't been evident in the campaign up until now (except for
GMs who play the PoL like this.) Perhaps some of the demons are really
angels by this analysis, and the angel/demon split we have is PoL
propaganda. E.g. a Charles Manson type cult could create what is
technically (by the proposed definition) an angel which would act as we
expect a demon to. Or maybe all demons and angels are created by group
self-sacrifice, which devolves to the "they are all the same thing, but
with different motivations" option.

Perhaps Seir was created by an ancient group similar to the current
guild.


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Hiya all,

Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at the moment?
How does a character in the guild do Warrior Training now we can no long use
Casterlan Borders?

Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did I miss it?

Jono


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Without agreeing with this heresy, I'd like to note that Astaroth,
Crocell, Ipos, Volac, Furfur, Andras & Belial appear either as Dark
Angels, or as Chimeric Angels. I think that Astaroth is fairly
hard-line.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Michael Woodhams

A problem with this is we'd expect more not-very-nice angels/archangels,
especially hard-line nationalistic ones (imagine a Nazi or Maoist angel)
and these haven't been evident in the campaign up until now (except for
GMs who play the PoL like this.) Perhaps some of the demons are really
angels by this analysis, and the angel/demon split we have is PoL
propaganda. E.g. a Charles Manson type cult could create what is
technically (by the proposed definition) an angel which would act as we
expect a demon to.


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There are different flavours of demons. From their descriptions, they
have different motivations. The analysis I've got breaks them down as
follows:

Motivation	Count	Example
Evil		 14	Marquis of Corruption
Chaos	       15	Earl of Death and Havoc
Other	       21	Marquis of the Waters
Knowledge    16	The Learned Earl
"Good"       6	Duke of Virtues

Any moderate and rational follower who explains the benefits of The
President of Murderers, The Marquis of Corruption, The Infernal King,
The Mad King, The Prince of Fools, Earl of Death and Havoc, The Reaping
Duke, The Terrible Duke, The Savage Duke, and so on is not moderate and
rational.

However, The Wise Duke, The Learned Earl, The Unicorn Duke, and even The
Willing Prince can seem resonable when presented well. They still have
calories, they are just hidden under the pleasant flavour.

Andrew


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6. Raise the PoL and PoD to Gods and amalgamate into a single large
pantheon giving each area's of influence. E.G. Sier is a Patron to
Thieves, Uriel is a God of Justice, Bune an ancient Dragon God, Ipos a
God of Luck and Chance etc.=20

In reading quickly though the Powers version 2.0, in my GM guide it =
seems to me that the major differences between Gods and  demons is that =
currently the Gods are restricted by The Covenant and demons are not and =
that it states you can summon a demon. However later under invocations  =
it just talks of Powers, there is nothing in the wording here to =
indicate that invocations only work on demons. The call patron talent in =
pacting is an invocation so Gods must be evocable if they are able to be =
called.

It seems to me that as it currently stands there is very little to =
differentiate between the two types of powers.=20

I'm with Mandos call them all Gods,  differentiate between 'Old' Gods =
who origins are lost (have always been) and 'New Gods' that have =
undergone the apotheosis, if people feel they must but they are all Gods =
subject to the covenant.=20
Make the PoL and PoD into either one great big very detailed pantheon =
with areas of influence, or two opposing ones. The areas of influence =
could be mostly adapted from the information we already have.
As this Pantheon would be the Major religion of the western kingdom =
having it in detail  makes sense too.

Helen
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6. Raise the PoL and PoD to Gods and =
amalgamate=20
into a single large<BR>pantheon giving each area's of influence. E.G. =
Sier is a=20
Patron to<BR>Thieves, Uriel is a God of Justice, Bune an ancient Dragon =
God,=20
Ipos a<BR>God of Luck and Chance etc. <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>In reading =
quickly though the=20
Powers version 2.0, in my GM guide it seems to me that the major =
differences=20
between Gods and&nbsp; demons is that currently the Gods are restricted =
by The=20
Covenant and demons are not and that it states you can summon a demon. =
However=20
later under invocations&nbsp; it just talks of Powers, =
t</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>here is nothing in the =
wording here to=20
indicate that&nbsp;invocations only work on&nbsp;demons. The call patron =
talent=20
in pacting is an invocation so Gods must be evocable if they are able to =
be=20
called.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It seems to me that as =
it currently=20
stands there is very little to differentiate between the two types of =
powers.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I'm with =
Mandos&nbsp;call them all=20
Gods,&nbsp; differentiate between 'Old' Gods who origins are lost (have =
always=20
been) and 'New Gods' that have undergone the apotheosis, if people feel =
they=20
must but they are all Gods subject to the covenant. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Make the PoL and PoD =
into either one=20
great big very detailed pantheon with areas of influence, or two =
opposing ones.=20
The areas of influence&nbsp;could be&nbsp;mostly adapted from the =
information we=20
already have.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As this Pantheon would =
be the Major=20
religion of the western kingdom having it in detail&nbsp; makes sense=20
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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I am surpised that Wicca do not have inhouse training at the guild since
they are no longer "Black Mages". Pacted people are welcome into the guild
these days, Orcs are allowed to be members, when should we open up training
to the Assassians guild in Seagate? why not bring back the Greater Summoners
for that matter.

Maybe Rashak has a point and the guild should look at joining her...

Jono


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> Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at 
> the moment? How does a character in the guild do Warrior 
> Training now we can no long use Casterlan Borders?
> 
> Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did 
> I miss it?

I think the question should be more.....

Does anyone consider the availability of masters in any skill when
ranking? Do we want then to have to ? If so should this be documented as
part of the Skill?

Basically I doubt many players worry about the availability of the
trainers when they rank and I am not sure that making them do so is a
good thing, it simply adds unnessesary complication. 

For those of us who want to justify how and where we learn our skills
and put in a back story there are plenty of ways to do that without
details being written down. 

Mandos
/s


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I suspect this was an oversight - when we drew up the skills available in 
the Players Guide I always intended all military skills, including warrior 
to be trained at the Guild.  And no-one pointed out the omission at the 
time.

I agree that the Guild would have senior warrior on hand for such a core 
skill.  Can the guild poach someone from one of the visiting armies : - )

Regards,
Rosemary




Jonathan Bean -TME <jonathan@tme.co.nz> 
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
17/11/2005 09:58 a.m.
Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz


To
dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc

Subject
[dq] Warrior training






Hiya all,

Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at the moment?
How does a character in the guild do Warrior Training now we can no long 
use
Casterlan Borders?

Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did I miss it?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


--=_alternative 0077A6AECC2570BB_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I suspect this was an oversight - when
we drew up the skills available in the Players Guide I always intended
all military skills, including warrior to be trained at the Guild. &nbsp;And
no-one pointed out the omission at the time.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I agree that the Guild would have senior
warrior on hand for such a core skill. &nbsp;Can the guild poach someone
from one of the visiting armies : - )</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Jonathan Bean -TME &lt;jonathan@tme.co.nz&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">17/11/2005 09:58 a.m.</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[dq] Warrior training</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Hiya all,<br>
<br>
Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at the moment?<br>
How does a character in the guild do Warrior Training now we can no long
use<br>
Casterlan Borders?<br>
<br>
Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did I miss it?<br>
<br>
Jono<br>
<br>
<br>
-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
--=_alternative 0077A6AECC2570BB_=--


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For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
10% Exp discount with a trainer.
25% Exp penalty without a trainer.
Can not learn a language without a trainer.
Can learn from books.

I as a player worry about it. Again its a 'Frontiers of Alusia' thing... Not
all things are available all of the time to everyone. I take that the stuff
in the players guide is what we can get from the guild for training and one
of the things we can no longer get because of world events is warrior
training with the Casterland Borders.

Then again how many of the GMs even consider it when signing off ranking?

Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 10:21 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training


> Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at
> the moment? How does a character in the guild do Warrior
> Training now we can no long use Casterlan Borders?
>
> Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did
> I miss it?

I think the question should be more.....

Does anyone consider the availability of masters in any skill when
ranking? Do we want then to have to ? If so should this be documented as
part of the Skill?

Basically I doubt many players worry about the availability of the
trainers when they rank and I am not sure that making them do so is a
good thing, it simply adds unnessesary complication.

For those of us who want to justify how and where we learn our skills
and put in a back story there are plenty of ways to do that without
details being written down.

Mandos
/s


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> I am surpised that Wicca do not have inhouse training at the guild =
since
> they are no longer "Black Mages".=20

Wicca magic works better out of the cities. It makes logical sence not =
to load any more pernalties on to a student learning to use magic that =
need be, the location is better for the practioners of the collage.
The same as Air collage using a tower or the water collage a pool.

>Pacted people are welcome into the guild these days, Orcs are allowed =
to be members, when should we open up >training to the Assassians guild =
in Seagate?=20

Assassins Guild what Assassins Guild there is no such thing.=20
OOC we have in a way, there are PC Assassins out there learning the =
skill from others, Starflower will teach and admits to having high ranks =
in the skill.
For those who want to be more discreate there are other options, its =
just as the book says "make you own arrangements" so we do.

Helen
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; I am surpised that Wicca do not =
have inhouse=20
training at the guild since<BR>&gt; they are no longer "Black Mages".=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Wicca magic works =
better out of the=20
cities. It makes logical sence not to load&nbsp;any more&nbsp;pernalties =
on to a=20
student learning to use magic that need be, the location is better for =
the=20
practioners of the collage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The same as Air collage =
using a tower=20
or the water collage a pool.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;Pacted people are welcome into the =
guild these=20
days, Orcs are allowed to be members, when should we open up =
&gt;training to the=20
Assassians guild in Seagate? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Assassins Guild what =
Assassins Guild=20
there is no such thing. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>OOC we have in a way, =
there=20
are&nbsp;PC Assassins&nbsp;out there learning the skill from others, =
Starflower=20
will teach and admits to having high ranks in the skill.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>For those who want to =
be more=20
discreate there are other options, its just as the book says "make you =
own=20
arrangements" so we do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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> For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
> 10% Exp discount with a trainer.
> 25% Exp penalty without a trainer.
> Can not learn a language without a trainer.
> Can learn from books.
> 
> Then again how many of the GMs even consider it when signing 
> off ranking?

As a GM I certainly don't check the guides to see who is available. When
I do check I just ensure that the cash cost matches the claimed
discount.

Mandos
/s


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Given this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who is a
member of Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is handled
on the QT, and not an official skill etc to build in the flavour? This would
make it available to all players as a level playing field.

Jono


 -----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
RMansfield@ingnz.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 10:49 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training

I suspect this was an oversight - when we drew up the skills available in
the Players Guide I always intended all military skills, including warrior
to be trained at the Guild.  And no-one pointed out the omission at the
time.

I agree that the Guild would have senior warrior on hand for such a core
skill.  Can the guild poach someone from one of the visiting armies : - )

Regards,
Rosemary



      Jonathan Bean -TME <jonathan@tme.co.nz>
      Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
      17/11/2005 09:58 a.m. Please respond to
            dq@dq.sf.org.nz


     To dq@dq.sf.org.nz
            cc
            Subject [dq] Warrior training







Hiya all,

Does the Guild have any people who are training Warriors at the moment?
How does a character in the guild do Warrior Training now we can no long use
Casterlan Borders?

Should the guild get a Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did I miss it?

Jono


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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Given=20
this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who is a =
member of=20
Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is&nbsp;handled on =

the&nbsp;QT, and not an official skill etc to build in the flavour? This =
would=20
make it available to all players as a level playing field.=20
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-AU; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: =
AR-SA">Jono</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D489575621-16112005><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D489575621-16112005></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D489575621-16112005>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>RMansfield@ingnz.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 =
10:49=20
a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Warrior=20
training<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I suspect =
this was an=20
oversight - when we drew up the skills available in the Players Guide I =
always=20
intended all military skills, including warrior to be trained at the =
Guild.=20
&nbsp;And no-one pointed out the omission at the time.</FONT> =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I agree that the Guild would have senior =
warrior on hand=20
for such a core skill. &nbsp;Can the guild poach someone from one of the =

visiting armies : - )</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>Regards,<BR>Rosemary<BR></FONT><BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD width=3D"40%"><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Jonathan Bean =
-TME=20
      &lt;jonathan@tme.co.nz&gt;</B> </FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1>Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>17/11/2005 09:58 a.m.</FONT>=20
      <TABLE border=3D1>
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD bgColor=3Dwhite>
            <DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please =
respond=20
            =
to<BR>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT></DIV></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P>
    <TD width=3D"59%">
      <TABLE width=3D"100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>To</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>=20
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>cc</FONT></DIV>
          <TD>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
            <DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>Subject</FONT></DIV>
          <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>[dq] Warrior=20
        training</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR>
      <TABLE>
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
          =
<TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT=20
size=3D2><TT>Hiya all,<BR><BR>Does the Guild have any people who are =
training=20
Warriors at the moment?<BR>How does a character in the guild do Warrior =
Training=20
now we can no long use<BR>Casterlan Borders?<BR><BR>Should the guild get =
a=20
Warrior Trainer? Did this happen - did I miss =
it?<BR><BR>Jono<BR><BR><BR>-- to=20
unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz=20
--<BR></TT></FONT><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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> Given this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who
is
> a member of Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is
> handled on the QT, and not an official skill etc to build in the
> flavour? This would make it available to all players as a level
playing
> field. 

Tussock has effectivly retired from adventuring so I am more than happy
for her to be used as a trainer for assasins, either as part of the
Guild training structure or informally. She is currently Rank 8. 

Mandos
/s


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On Thu, 2005-11-17 at 09:49, Michael Woodhams wrote:
>  Hence an angel is an amalgam of many
> minds, of people who believed in a cause sufficiently to give their
> lives and souls to it (both at the point of initial creation, and later
> pacted mortals when they die.)

Expanding on this idea:
Powers are amalgamations of souls. The souls slowly wear out, so to
maintain itself a power needs new souls. The souls are more or less
valuable, according to circumstances. They can get souls in a number of
ways:

Hunter-gatherer: when lots of mortals die at the same place/time, powers
can feed on them. This has low nutritional value.
Slash-and-burn: souls can be sacrificed to a power (blood-soaked altars,
flint knives etc.). These have moderate nutritional value.
Farming without fertilizer: if a mortal has been worshiping a power,
that power gets their soul when they die. These have moderate
nutritional value.
Farming with fertilizer: a mortal pacts to a power, lives for a while
pacted, then dies. Their soul gets big and juicy while pacted, and has
high nutritional value.

Then the Power is heavily influenced by the souls it consumes. If it
gets pacts by bribes of earthly power and the ability to crush
opponents, it becomes an "evil" Power. If it feeds on mass deaths, it
will be an anguished mentally unstable power. If it gets pacts by "I
will give you power so you can help others", it will become an
altruistic power.

Powers who can't get enough souls to eat will slowly fade away. Enough
unclaimed souls in one place can give rise to a new Power. Mortals can
create the required conditions if they know what they are doing. 

The initial nature of a new Power depends on how it was created, and
then this can change slowly over time as it specializes in eating souls
of a particular type.


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You can't train warrior without a trainer or a training partner of the same
rank. No 25% exp penalty for warriors.

As a GM I don't worry about training for the Skills Languages or Weapons
listed as being available at the guild
Master ranks have requirements so they aren't a problem.
Trying to work out how the guild healer teaches a dozen different PCs
healing, all different ranks, all at the same time is not my Job. The
Players guide lists Primary Contacts so there must be assistants to teach
the lower levels or what ever.
The only trainer discount I would question is Assassin, Id also question
where you got a book on Assassination 101. but other than that lets let
sleeping dogs lie.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training


> For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
> 10% Exp discount with a trainer.
> 25% Exp penalty without a trainer.
> Can not learn a language without a trainer.
> Can learn from books.
>
> Then again how many of the GMs even consider it when signing
> off ranking?

As a GM I certainly don't check the guides to see who is available. When
I do check I just ensure that the cash cost matches the claimed
discount.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This maybe a good middle ground - a guild member who can be trusted, but not
part of the formal training system, but allow it to be common knowledge
amoung the shady members of the guild that Tussock is the one to contact?

I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for GMs
to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at all.

What does everyone else think about having in the players guide a way for
characters to gain assassin training?
Jono


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:12 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] What about assassin training


> Given this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who
is
> a member of Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is
> handled on the QT, and not an official skill etc to build in the
> flavour? This would make it available to all players as a level
playing
> field.

Tussock has effectivly retired from adventuring so I am more than happy
for her to be used as a trainer for assasins, either as part of the
Guild training structure or informally. She is currently Rank 8.

Mandos
/s


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Hi all,

I do not think it is correct that any GM uses their own PC as a NPC at any
point within their own game unless they have been retired the character
publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play.

This to me falls into the same set of un-writen rules as -

Players can not get there own PCs to interact with each other at all.
Players do not use items that have been signed off by themselves as a GM at
all - ever.

Its a clear line and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at all.
Some GMs are crossing it and I would like it to stop before it becomes a
real problem.
Its cleaner to not allow problems to develop at all.


Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Business Development Manager
TME - Its all about time
Phone 966 1656             PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
Fax 448 1051                Auckland, New Zealand
Mob 021 173 4060         Phone 0800 55 3366
Suite B, Building 6, 331 Rosedale Road, Albany Auckland 1311
http://www.tme.co.nz

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Hi =
all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>I do =
not think it is=20
correct that any GM&nbsp;uses their&nbsp;own PC as a NPC at any point =
within=20
their own&nbsp;game unless they have been retired the character publicly =
and it=20
is clear they are no longer in play. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>This =
to me falls=20
into the&nbsp;same set of un-writen rules as - </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players can not get=20
there own PCs to interact with each other at all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players do not use=20
items that have been signed off by themselves as a GM at all -=20
ever.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT><SPAN=20
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Its a =
clear line and=20
I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at all. Some GMs are =
crossing it=20
and I would like it to stop before it becomes a real=20
problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Its =
cleaner to not=20
allow problems to develop at all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Kind=20
regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ">Jonathan=20
Bean</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ"><?xml:namespace=20
prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
color=3D#800000><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">B</SPAN><SPAN=20
lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; =
mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">usiness=20
Development Manager<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; =
mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT=20
color=3D#008000>TME</FONT> - Its all about time<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; =
mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Phone=20
<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX =3D ST1 /><ST1:STREET u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:ADDRESS=20
u1:st=3D"on">966 =
1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PO Box=20
35902</ST1:ADDRESS></ST1:STREET>, <ST1:PLACE u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:PLACENAME =

u1:st=3D"on">Browns</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE=20
u1:st=3D"on">Bay</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
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I don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But,
sometimes its use of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a
GM you use a PC as an information source? You shouldn't use them in such
a way to gain power or influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game,
some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, who is a political power
in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposal? Bring in another
GM to run his character? Say she's out? Where is the harm?
=20
I agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -
back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild
anyway.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Bean -TME
	Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:36 a.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: [dq] GMing your own Characters
=09
=09
	Hi all,
	=20
	I do not think it is correct that any GM uses their own PC as a
NPC at any point within their own game unless they have been retired the
character publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play.=20
	=20
	This to me falls into the same set of un-writen rules as -=20
	=20
	Players can not get there own PCs to interact with each other at
all.
	Players do not use items that have been signed off by themselves
as a GM at all - ever.
	=20
	Its a clear line and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross
it at all. Some GMs are crossing it and I would like it to stop before
it becomes a real problem.
	Its cleaner to not allow problems to develop at all.
	=20
	=20
	Kind regards,
	=20
	Jonathan Bean
	Business Development Manager
	TME - Its all about time
	Phone 966 1656             PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
	Fax 448 1051                Auckland, New Zealand
	Mob 021 173 4060         Phone 0800 55 3366
	Suite B, Building 6, 331 Rosedale Road, Albany Auckland 1311
	http://www.tme.co.nz <http://www.tme.co.nz/> =20
	=20


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XMLNS:ST1><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But, sometimes =
its use=20
of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a GM you use a PC as =
an=20
information source? You shouldn't use them in such a way to gain power =
or=20
influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go =
and=20
visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian =
do under=20
your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out? =
Where is=20
the harm?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -=20
back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild=20
anyway.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Jonathan Bean -TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 =
11:36=20
  a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] GMing your =
own=20
  Characters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005>Hi all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>I do =
not think it=20
  is correct that any GM&nbsp;uses their&nbsp;own PC as a NPC at any =
point=20
  within their own&nbsp;game unless they have been retired the character =

  publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>This =
to me falls=20
  into the&nbsp;same set of un-writen rules as - </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players can not=20
  get there own PCs to interact with each other at =
all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players do not use=20
  items that have been signed off by themselves as a GM at all -=20
  ever.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D+0><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Its =
a clear line=20
  and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at all. Some GMs are =

  crossing it and I would like it to stop before it becomes a real=20
  problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Its =
cleaner to not=20
  allow problems to develop at all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>Kind =

  regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ">Jonathan=20
  Bean</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
  style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT=20
  color=3D#800000><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">B</SPAN><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">usiness=20
  Development Manager<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT=20
  color=3D#008000>TME</FONT> - Its all about =
time<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Phone=20
  <ST1:STREET u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:ADDRESS u1:st=3D"on">966=20
  1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PO Box=20
  35902</ST1:ADDRESS></ST1:STREET>, <ST1:PLACE =
u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:PLACENAME=20
  u1:st=3D"on">Browns</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE=20
  u1:st=3D"on">Bay</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Fax=20
  448 1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  <ST1:PLACE u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:CITY u1:st=3D"on"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>Auckland</ST1:CITY>,=20
  <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st=3D"on">New=20
  Zealand</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT=20
  color=3D#ff0000>Mob 021 173=20
  4060</FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp; </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Phone=20
  0800 55 3366</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Suite=20
  B, Building 6, 331 Rosedale Road, Albany Auckland 1311</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">http://<A=20
  href=3D"http://www.tme.co.nz/">www.tme.co.nz</A> =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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Frankly, NO I don't like this

If Mandos wants to make Tussock available to teach fine, if this is as an
NPC great, but he should keep control.
As I said before If you know the right people now you can be taught but for
a price, and there is role-playing and story involved.

Assassin should not end up being another skill you pay your 150 sp a week
for. Which is what will happen if she is under general control.
The exp penalty for no trainer, or the hoops we are currently jumping though
to get the skill taught to us is all part and parcel of having the unlawful
skill. And I would hate to loose that flavour.

If Tussock becomes the point of contact for the training and players have to
come to Mandos (Or some one controlling person) to make arrangements, PC can
have the option to learn Assassin but for a price, not just the std 150 sp a
week.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Bean -TME" <jonathan@tme.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] What about assassin training


> This maybe a good middle ground - a guild member who can be trusted, but
not
> part of the formal training system, but allow it to be common knowledge
> amoung the shady members of the guild that Tussock is the one to contact?
>
> I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for GMs
> to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at all.
>
> What does everyone else think about having in the players guide a way for
> characters to gain assassin training?
> Jono
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:12 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] What about assassin training
>
>
> > Given this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who
> is
> > a member of Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is
> > handled on the QT, and not an official skill etc to build in the
> > flavour? This would make it available to all players as a level
> playing
> > field.
>
> Tussock has effectivly retired from adventuring so I am more than happy
> for her to be used as a trainer for assasins, either as part of the
> Guild training structure or informally. She is currently Rank 8.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I think it's a total can of worms that in the past it was clear that GMs
didn't do it. A NPC is just that a None-player character.
A Player Character is just that a players character and as a GM you are the
GM not the player.

If the party wants to do something - odd or underhanded - say steal from the
employer then the problems can quickly come to the surface, if only in the
minds of people.

Yes if Ian is the GM then he should not use Isil Eth as she is a player
character. Yes she should be out. Yes the players should think - ahh Ian's
Charatcer we cant use her. The risks are to high of creating (even if only
in some peoples minds) a problem that I don't think we, as a group should do
it.

I never want to be in a position as a player of not trusting my GM, or their
independence.

Andrew said:

I agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -
back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild anyway.

Do you really think it is rampant? I have only seen it once amoung all the
characters I have looked at.

Jono


  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
  Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:41 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


  I don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But, sometimes
its use of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a GM you use a PC
as an information source? You shouldn't use them in such a way to gain power
or influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go
and visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian
do under your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's
out? Where is the harm?

  I agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -
back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild anyway.

  Andrew
    -----Original Message-----
    From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
    Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:36 a.m.
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject: [dq] GMing your own Characters


    Hi all,

    I do not think it is correct that any GM uses their own PC as a NPC at
any point within their own game unless they have been retired the character
publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play.

    This to me falls into the same set of un-writen rules as -

    Players can not get there own PCs to interact with each other at all.
    Players do not use items that have been signed off by themselves as a GM
at all - ever.

    Its a clear line and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at
all. Some GMs are crossing it and I would like it to stop before it becomes
a real problem.
    Its cleaner to not allow problems to develop at all.


    Kind regards,

    Jonathan Bean
    Business Development Manager
    TME - Its all about time
    Phone 966 1656             PO Box 35902, Browns Bay
    Fax 448 1051                Auckland, New Zealand
    Mob 021 173 4060         Phone 0800 55 3366
    Suite B, Building 6, 331 Rosedale Road, Albany Auckland 1311
    http://www.tme.co.nz

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<DIV><SPAN class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
color=3D#000000><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I think =
it&#8217;s a total=20
can of worms that in the past it was clear that GMs didn&#8217;t do =
it.<SPAN=20
class=3D716265222-16112005> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A NPC is just =
that a=20
None-player character.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>A=20
Player Character is just that a players character and as a GM you are =
the GM not=20
the player.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
color=3D#000000><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>If=20
the party wants to do something - odd or underhanded &#8211; say steal =
from the=20
employer then the problems can quickly come to the surface, if only in =
the minds=20
of people</FONT>.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
color=3D#000000><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>Yes=20
if Ian is the GM then he should not use Isil Eth as she is a player=20
character.&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D716265222-16112005>Yes she should be out. =
Yes the=20
players should think - ahh Ian's Charatcer we cant use her.=20
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>The=20
risks are to high of creating (even if only in some peoples minds) a=20
problem&nbsp;that I don&#8217;t think we, as a group should do =
it</FONT>.=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#000000>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><FONT =
color=3D#000000>I=20
never want to be in a position as a player of not trusting my GM, or =
their=20
independence.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20
class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT color=3D#000000>Andrew=20
said:</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20
class=3D716265222-16112005>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT color=3D#000000>I agree that =
a player's=20
PCs should NEVER interact with each other - back-scratching and item =
borrowing=20
is rampant throughout the guild anyway.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT=20
color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><SPAN =
class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT=20
color=3D#000000>Do you really think it is rampant? I have only seen it =
once amoung=20
all the characters I have looked at.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial><FONT =

size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D716265222-16112005></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Jono</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D716265222-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:41 =
a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] GMing your own=20
  Characters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But, =
sometimes its=20
  use of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a GM you use a =
PC as an=20
  information source? You shouldn't use them in such a way to gain power =
or=20
  influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to =
go and=20
  visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does =
Ian do=20
  under your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say =
she's out?=20
  Where is the harm?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -=20
  back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild=20
  anyway.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =

    </B>Jonathan Bean -TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 =
11:36=20
    a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] GMing =
your own=20
    Characters<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005>Hi all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D131422722-16112005>I =
do not think=20
    it is correct that any GM&nbsp;uses their&nbsp;own PC as a NPC at =
any point=20
    within their own&nbsp;game unless they have been retired the =
character=20
    publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play. =
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>This to me falls=20
    into the&nbsp;same set of un-writen rules as - </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players can not=20
    get there own PCs to interact with each other at =
all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Players do not=20
    use items that have been signed off by themselves as a GM at all -=20
    ever.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D+0><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Its a clear line=20
    and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at all. Some GMs =
are=20
    crossing it and I would like it to stop before it becomes a real=20
    problem.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Its cleaner to=20
    not allow problems to develop at all.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D131422722-16112005></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D131422722-16112005>Kind=20
    regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: =
auto"><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ">Jonathan=20
    Bean</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal=20
    style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: =
auto"><FONT=20
    color=3D#800000><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">B</SPAN><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">usiness=20
    Development Manager<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT=20
    color=3D#008000>TME</FONT> - Its all about =
time<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Phone=20
    <ST1:STREET u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:ADDRESS u1:st=3D"on">966=20
    1656&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PO Box=20
    35902</ST1:ADDRESS></ST1:STREET>, <ST1:PLACE =
u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:PLACENAME=20
    u1:st=3D"on">Browns</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACETYPE=20
    u1:st=3D"on">Bay</ST1:PLACETYPE></ST1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Fax=20
    448 1051&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

    <ST1:PLACE u1:st=3D"on"><ST1:CITY u1:st=3D"on"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    </SPAN>Auckland</ST1:CITY>, <ST1:COUNTRY-REGION u1:st=3D"on">New=20
    Zealand</ST1:COUNTRY-REGION></ST1:PLACE><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT=20
    color=3D#ff0000>Mob 021 173=20
    4060</FONT>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN=20
    style=3D"mso-tab-count: 1">&nbsp; </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Phone=20
    0800 55 3366</SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Suite=20
    B, Building 6, 331 Rosedale Road, Albany Auckland 1311</SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-NZ; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">http://<A=20
    href=3D"http://www.tme.co.nz/">www.tme.co.nz</A> =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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MessageWhat Andrew said.

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 11:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


  I don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But, =
sometimes its use of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a =
GM you use a PC as an information source? You shouldn't use them in such =
a way to gain power or influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game, =
some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, who is a political power =
in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposal? Bring in another =
GM to run his character? Say she's out? Where is the harm?

  I agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other - =
back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild =
anyway.

  Andrew
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<HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20
XMLNS:ST1><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What Andrew said.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, November 17, =
2005 11:41=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] GMing your =
own=20
  Characters</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  don't see the problem. If you do it too much, its tacky. But, =
sometimes its=20
  use of an appropriate NPC. What harm does it do, if as a GM you use a =
PC as an=20
  information source? You shouldn't use them in such a way to gain power =
or=20
  influence, of course. If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to =
go and=20
  visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does =
Ian do=20
  under your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say =
she's out?=20
  Where is the harm?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  agree that a player's PCs should NEVER interact with each other -=20
  back-scratching and item borrowing is rampant throughout the guild=20
  anyway.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D648243822-16112005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On 11/17/05, Michael Woodhams <mdw@free.net.nz> wrote:
>
> A mortal is able to become a demon by suitable magic and the sacrifice
> of many people. Hence a demon has the mind of a single individual, and
> one who has been very ruthless to become a demon.


I've always assumed that demons may be individuals, but could also be the
result of cults (with a single cult leader), or even an amalgamation of a
few powerful individuals.

It's probably just me, but I've tended to play/assume that demons with
multiple heads are the result of multiple people. (e.g. Aim, and previously
Belial).

> A problem with this is we'd expect more not-very-nice angels/archangels,
> especially hard-line nationalistic ones


Disagree. The PoL as a faction (as opposed to an apotheosis method) have a
distinct (and very nearly common) set of morals and principles. An "evil
angel" (that is a transcended figure made from an evil cult) would, IMO, be
a PoD.

Cheers,
Martin

PS: I don't like the idea of making them gods. Gods to me are something tha=
t
has never been mortal and that (in some unexplained way) gain power from th=
e
mere act of worship, rather than the (cruder?) method of soul gathering.

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Michael Woodhams</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mdw@free.net.nz">mdw@free.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
A mortal is able to become a demon by suitable magic and the sacrifice<br>o=
f many people. Hence a demon has the mind of a single individual, and<br>on=
e who has been very ruthless to become a demon.</blockquote><div><br>I've a=
lways assumed that demons may be individuals, but could also be the result =
of cults (with a single cult leader), or even an amalgamation of a few powe=
rful individuals.
<br><br>It's probably just me, but I've tended to play/assume that demons w=
ith multiple heads are the result of multiple people. (e.g. Aim, and previo=
usly Belial).<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bor=
der-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-=
left: 1ex;">
A problem with this is we'd expect more not-very-nice angels/archangels,<br=
>especially hard-line nationalistic ones </blockquote><div><br>Disagree. Th=
e PoL as a faction (as opposed to an apotheosis method) have a distinct (an=
d very nearly common) set of morals and principles.&nbsp; An &quot;evil ang=
el&quot; (that is a transcended figure made from an evil cult) would, IMO, =
be a PoD.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br>PS: I don't like the idea of making them g=
ods. Gods to me are something that has never been mortal and that (in some =
unexplained way) gain power from the mere act of worship, rather than the (=
cruder?) method of soul gathering.
<br></div></div><br>

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For Assassin some characters make contact with Assassins on a game and later get training from
them.  This is good.
For others who don't get lucky but want to acquire the skill anyway then I have assumed that books
are discreetly available and you pay the 25% extra.  Then once you are in the trade it is more
likely that you can find someone more senior to train you further.

I believe that the guild's mandate specifically excludes the training of assassins and that it
carefully heeds to that by never providing a trainer.
But they are pragmatic enough to turn a blind eye to adventuring guild members training each other
in the privacy of their own homes or borrowing certain unsavoury tomes from the library.

Also I think we should keep it reasonably hard to pick up Assassin so that it is more than "I have
8 weeks and some xp and it might be useful some time".

Cheers, Stephen.

Jonathan Bean -TME said:
> This maybe a good middle ground - a guild member who can be trusted, but not part of the formal
> training system, but allow it to be common knowledge amoung the shady members of the guild that
> Tussock is the one to contact?
>
> I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for GMs to use - so Tussock
> would no longer be a PC at all.
>
> What does everyone else think about having in the players guide a way for characters to gain
> assassin training?
> Jono
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 11:12 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] What about assassin training
>
>
>> Given this why do we not have Assassin training from a named NPC who
> is
>> a member of Guild Security - and put in the players guide that it is handled on the QT, and
>> not an official skill etc to build in the flavour? This would make it available to all players
>> as a level
> playing
>> field.
>
> Tussock has effectivly retired from adventuring so I am more than happy for her to be used as a
> trainer for assasins, either as part of the Guild training structure or informally. She is
> currently Rank 8.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
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If you are training Warrior with a partner of the same rank then you pay the 25% extra.  If you
have a trainer of higher rank then you get the 10% discount.

Helen Saggers said:
> You can't train warrior without a trainer or a training partner of the same rank. No 25% exp
> penalty for warriors.


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On 11/17/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
> If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, wh=
o
> is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposa=
l?
> Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out?
>

While tending to agree with Jono on this, I think Andrew raises a good
point. If a PC in the party has (to continue the example) Isil Eth as a
contact and ally then it seems problematic that they should be able unable
to use that alliance in the game world because Ian is at the moment wearing
another hat.

However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian should not
bring in a GM to run Isil Eth, but could consider making use of another GM
(who could be a party member willing to not be at the encounter and switch
hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth. That way (given
Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and Ian can
play Isil Eth as a PC.

BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more
fictional example.

Regards,
Martin

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:=
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">If ion Ian Woo=
d's game, some of the PCs want to go and=20
visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do =
under=20
your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out? </f=
ont></span></div></blockquote><div><br>While tending to agree with Jono on =
this, I think Andrew raises a good point.&nbsp; If a PC in the party has (t=
o continue the example) Isil Eth as a contact and ally then it seems proble=
matic that they should be able unable to use that alliance in the game worl=
d because Ian is at the moment wearing another hat.
<br><br>However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian shou=
ld not bring in a GM to run Isil Eth, but could consider making use of anot=
her GM (who could be a party member willing to not be at the encounter and =
switch hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth.&nbsp; That =
way (given Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and=
 Ian can play Isil Eth as a PC.
<br><br>BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more=
 fictional example.<br><br>Regards,<br>Martin<br></div><br></div><br>

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On 11/17/05, Jonathan Bean -TME <jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
>
> I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for GM=
s
> to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at all.


Err... why?

Provided that Mandos is happy to release an amount of Tussock's time for
training what's the problem?

It's not like we track the time used by other Guild NPCs -- no one check to
ensure that the Guild's top flight Ranger isn't busy teaching someone else
at the time.

Just not sure I understand your concern.

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Jonathan Bean -TME</b> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz">jonathan@tme.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><spa=
n class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"b=
order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left: 1ex;">
I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for GMs<=
br>to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at all.</blockquote><div><br=
>Err... why?<br><br>Provided that Mandos is happy to release an amount of T=
ussock's time for training what's the problem?
<br><br>It's not like we track the time used by other Guild NPCs -- no one =
check to ensure that the Guild's top flight Ranger isn't busy teaching some=
one else at the time.<br><br>Just not sure I understand your concern.<br>
</div></div><br>

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> I do not think it is correct that any GM uses their own PC as a NPC at
> any point within their own game unless they have been retired the
> character publicly and it is clear they are no longer in play. 

Completely disagree, Characters should be able to be adventure hooks and
entities that people can interact with. I think it enriches the campaign
to have PC's being involved in an 'NPC' role for a game. It adds to the
tapestry, characters are not just people who appear once every three
months. 

> Players can not get there own PCs to interact with each other at all.
> Its cleaner to not allow problems to develop at all.

Lets say what we mean rather than thic PC's may not interact stuff. 

Players should not allow items to go from one character to another.
Tussock and Dramus can meet in a pub and have a drink as long as they
both pay for their own drinks and don't swap items.

> Players do not use items that have been signed off by themselves as a
GM at all - ever.
> Its a clear line and I for one do not want players/GMs to cross it at
> all. Some GMs are crossing it and I would like it to stop before it
> becomes a real problem.

It is tacky but not a major problem, I can only think of a few occasions
where items have been loaned on adventure to the GM who created them.
The problem of players playing in small cliques with friendly GM's that
give out OTT stuff is far worse than the minor issues of GM's
occasionally ending up with an Item they wrote. 

Mandos
/s


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Because if you are a NPC then so be it.
You are no longer a PC and other GMs will treat you like a NPC - which is
totaly differant to a PC.

Jono
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
  Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 12:36 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] What about assassin training


  On 11/17/05, Jonathan Bean -TME <jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
    I think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for
GMs
    to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at all.

  Err... why?

  Provided that Mandos is happy to release an amount of Tussock's time for
training what's the problem?

  It's not like we track the time used by other Guild NPCs -- no one check
to ensure that the Guild's top flight Ranger isn't busy teaching someone
else at the time.

  Just not sure I understand your concern.



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D498263723-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Because if you are a NPC then so be it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D498263723-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>You=20
are no longer a PC and other GMs will treat you like a NPC - which is =
totaly=20
differant to a PC.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D498263723-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D498263723-16112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jono</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin=20
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 12:36 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] What about assassin=20
  training<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 11/17/05, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Jonathan=20
  Bean -TME</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz">jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I=20
    think she would have to be formaly retired and turned into a NPC for =

    GMs<BR>to use - so Tussock would no longer be a PC at =
all.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Err... why?<BR><BR>Provided that Mandos is happy to release =
an amount=20
  of Tussock's time for training what's the problem? <BR><BR>It's not =
like we=20
  track the time used by other Guild NPCs -- no one check to ensure that =
the=20
  Guild's top flight Ranger isn't busy teaching someone else at the=20
  time.<BR><BR>Just not sure I understand your=20
concern.<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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I have used a PC of mine as party empolyer and this seems common - not 
going along on the adventure or anything like that. What is the 
problem? In fact a GM has used that same character as an NPC, without 
even a by-your-leave, which i felt was a little much to be honest.

cheers,

clare


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> Because if you are a NPC then so be it.
> You are no longer a PC and other GMs will treat you like a
> NPC - which is totaly differant to a PC.

Unless people are roleplaying their training now there is no issue.
NPC's are there for people to interract with, there is no interaction
involved here. The player talking to the GM says they was taught by
Tussock and the GM signs it off. If they want to contact me for time
confirmation that's fine too but probably not really required. 

Mandos
/s


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Martin Dickson said:
> PS: I don't like the idea of making them gods. Gods to me are something that has never been
> mortal and that (in some unexplained way) gain power from the mere act of worship, rather than
> the (cruder?) method of soul gathering.

I completely agree.

Any change we make should be in keeping with what has been established in game.  I see no reason
to make a radical change.

PoDs, PoLs, Gods, and other pan-dimenionals are part of our campaign.  They are all different (in
origin, source of power, attitude, etc.) but the uniting thing about them is that they operate at
a diferent level from us mere mortals and we only see a part of the interactions that go on
between them.

I think you can follow a god, or even be the agent of a god, or the mouthpiece/herald/messenger of
a god, but this is different from the pacting that happens with the PoDs and PoLs and this is one
of their defining differences.
I like that while the PoDs and PoLs received most of their names and attributes out of our
history, what they are and how they work is different from any of the pantheons of our history.

I think agreeing on the way that the PoDs, PoLs, and Gods work is important for campaign
consistency, but they don't all need to work the same way.
And I think that it is important that we agree on what effect the PoDs, PoLs and Gods have on the
"Baronies" society.
That the PoLs are generally perceived as being beneficial and PoDs are generally considered to be
dangerous or evil is established and I think we should keep that.
That the PoLs are actively opposed to the PoDs is established and fine.
That the PoDs make active use of magic and mages if they can get them is established and fine.

That the PoLs are rabidly anti-magic has been established by some GMs and I think that this has
caused the majority of the problems and should be changed.
The guild is 80% mages (that's the nature of DQ and our campaign). If the PoLs are rabidly
anti-mage then this makes them our natural enemies and thus the current situation.
I assume that those GMs who have portrayed them as anti-mage are basing them on our medieval
church-driven magic-is-bad witch-sniffers and inquisitors (both regarded as evil to our modern
sensibilities).  In the same way that many players base the PoL aligned characters on christian
priests, knights and crusaders.
Sure use our history for inspiration, but we also need to consider that there is not one exclusive
god they follow and they live in a world where magic is real an as intrinsically immoral as a
sword or a gun.  It is a tool, the use of it is moral or immoral based on what it is used for.

I think the attitude of the majority of PoLs should be that magic is dangerous.  Careless use of
it is penalised, malicious use of it is hunted down and exterminated.  And there is a _minority_
of fanatics who believe that magic is too dangerous and the use of it should be completely
abolished.

Then the PoLs are out there and can be used to penalise those who carelessly use magic, but have
no problem with adventurers who are careful and act in a reasonable manner.
Anyone found to be a follower of a PoD is going to be treated with great prejudice by the PoLs and
vice-versa.


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Clare said:
I have used a PC of mine as party empolyer and this seems common - not going
along on the adventure or anything like that. What is the problem?

If the players wish to do something say - 'kill the employer' then its just
gets all wrong.
Yes this is a extreme which I dont think comes up often nor should it, but
the point is that there is a distintion between player characters and
none-player characters and even more so in peoples minds when the character
belongs to the GM involved.
Players should feel some digree of freedom with interacting with NPCs and
not have any doubt in there mind that their is any form of conflict of
interest from the GMs.

---
Clare also said:
In fact a GM has used that same character as an NPC, without even a
by-your-leave, which i felt was a little much to be honest.

I have used (maybe mistakenly) what I understood to be retired PCs who where
being used as NPCs. I will take more care next time. But I guess even this
points to the differance between NPCs and PCs.

BTW: I do not think any current GM has done anything wrong as such or that
their has been any form of conflict of interest - its just I don't want to
see it turn into a problem (even if in some peoples minds).

Jono


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On 17/11/2005, at 13:15, Stephen Martin wrote:

> And I think that it is important that we agree on what effect the 
> PoDs, PoLs and Gods have on the
> "Baronies" society.
> That the PoLs are generally perceived as being beneficial and PoDs are 
> generally considered to be
> dangerous or evil is established and I think we should keep that.
> That the PoLs are actively opposed to the PoDs is established and fine.
> That the PoDs make active use of magic and mages if they can get them 
> is established and fine.

I agree with all of that.

> That the PoLs are rabidly anti-magic has been established by some GMs 
> and I think that this has
> caused the majority of the problems and should be changed.

Yes indeed - that is where the problem lies. On one hand I see PoLers 
be rabidly anti all magics, and then I see guild PC Mages who are 
priests of various PoLs (not just Sammiel who it seems is agreed is ok 
with magic). The PoLers seem random in their actions, and how they may 
react in one game is no inidcator of how they will react in the next 
game.

> I think the attitude of the majority of PoLs should be that magic is 
> dangerous.  Careless use of
> it is penalised, malicious use of it is hunted down and exterminated.  
> And there is a _minority_
> of fanatics who believe that magic is too dangerous and the use of it 
> should be completely
> abolished.

I like that idea,

cheers,

clare


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My preference is that (fictional) Esel-Ith is unavailable at the moment but her 2ic is able to act
on her behalf in most matters.
Then the 2ic can be flirted with, charmed, bullied, etc. as required without impacting on a player
not active in the current game.

The same with interacting with another players character.  If I go to the Barony of Neverwhere and
want to ask a favour of my mate the Baron (also a PC) then I think the PC should be unavailable
for whatever reason and the GM should play an NPC that works for the PC.  And if you require a
favour that only the PC can provide then (with GMs approval) pick up the phone and call the
player.

Cheers, Stephen.

Martin Dickson said:
> On 11/17/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>>
>> If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, who is a political
>> power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his
>> character? Say she's out?
>>
>
> While tending to agree with Jono on this, I think Andrew raises a good point. If a PC in the
> party has (to continue the example) Isil Eth as a contact and ally then it seems problematic
> that they should be able unable to use that alliance in the game world because Ian is at the
> moment wearing another hat.
>
> However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian should not bring in a GM to run
> Isil Eth, but could consider making use of another GM (who could be a party member willing to
> not be at the encounter and switch hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth. That
> way (given Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and Ian can play Isil
> Eth as a PC.
>
> BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more fictional example.
>
> Regards,
> Martin


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Mandos said:
Completely disagree, Characters should be able to be adventure hooks and
entities that people can interact with. I think it enriches the campaign to
have PC's being involved in an 'NPC' role for a game. It adds to the
tapestry, characters are not just people who appear once every three months.

I think any enrichments was lost on me when the GM started to GM their own
PC. I felt that I was constranined in the way I could play the game and that
I started to regard the GM as a player, which they are not and it ended up
blurring the line to the point where I should have stopped playing, and I
regreat not saying something at the time.

But let me be clear all the enrichment was lost totaly.

---
Mandos also said:
The problem of players playing in small cliques with friendly GM's that give
out OTT stuff is far worse than the minor issues of GM's occasionally ending
up with an Item they wrote.

Yes I agree.


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But there are problems with this. It depends a lot on what the PC is hiring the party to do. To obtain/find some rare magic item for the PC? That's an obvious conflict of interest. The GM has a vested interest in the party successfully completing the mission. To rescue find some missing friend or underling of the PC? Not as bad but still the same thing. 

Even "helping solve some problem for my friends in XYZ village" or "on my estate in ABC county" is a potential conflict of interest. The GM's pc may not directly benefit in a material sense but they can still be seen (perceived) to benefit in some way, shape or form by the players in the game. Perhaps their relationship with those villages or the local lord is strengthened or whatever. Their fame/reputation is enhanced. 

There also the issue of questioning and investigating the motives and trustworthiness of the employer. These are things regular come up in adventures and just simply cannot be dealt with in any useful fashion where the its the GM's own PC that's employing the party.

At the end of the day I think Jono is correct. It should be avoided at all costs and put a blanket prohibition on it (or at least advise strongly against it in GM guides etc. - at the end of the day gm's will run the games they want to). I suspect its just GM laziness that causes them to use their own pc's as employers, rather than any desire to advance their own PC in any way. The GM should just use a "true NPC", or at the most another gm/players' PC who is not involved in the session, as the employer.  

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Clare Baldock
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 12:43 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


I have used a PC of mine as party empolyer and this seems common - not 
going along on the adventure or anything like that. What is the 
problem? In fact a GM has used that same character as an NPC, without 
even a by-your-leave, which i felt was a little much to be honest.

cheers,

clare


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> That the PoLs are 
> generally perceived as being beneficial and PoDs are 
> generally considered to be dangerous or evil is established 
> and I think we should keep that. That the PoLs are actively 
> opposed to the PoDs is established and fine. That the PoDs 
> make active use of magic and mages if they can get them is 
> established and fine.

This is where the contetion lies. 

We have the Good/Evil contention with the PoL and PoD activly opposed.
This to me gives a very monochromatic worldview that I would prefer not
to see in the game. Multiple churches, different religions and beliefs
is far more interesting and gives more adventuring hooks than the simple
black/white division you are discussing. 

I am happy with the concept of PoL churches being in the ascendant in
the Western Kingdom but I would like to see PoD churches (for the non
rabid PoD's) existing side by side with the PoL and while there is
friction between the two and in cases active hatred it is not an all out
kill or be killed scale war. 

To steal Andrews Table. 
I would expect the 'Evil' and 'Chaos' Demons to be Cult status, hunted
down and exterminated by all and rabidly destroyed by the PoL. 
The 'Other', 'Knowledge' and 'Good' Demons should conceptually be able
to be formalised religions co-existing however uneasily with the PoL. 

Motivation	Count	Example
Evil		 14	Marquis of Corruption
Chaos	       15	Earl of Death and Havoc
Other	       21	Marquis of the Waters
Knowledge    16	The Learned Earl
"Good"       6	Duke of Virtues

It is all a matter of fundamentalism and how extreme the PoL are played.


Mandos
/s


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> I think any enrichments was lost on me when the GM started to 
> GM their own PC. I felt that I was constranined in the way I 
> could play the game and that I started to regard the GM as a 
> player, which they are not and it ended up blurring the line 
> to the point where I should have stopped playing, and I 
> regreat not saying something at the time.

What was constraining you? 

I have played with both Ian and Chris using their characters as NPC's
and in both cases it came across that the characters had lives outside
of the adventure sequence, it gave depth to them and min turn made the
world more believable. 

So far I have never seen a GM use this to make a personal gain for the
character and as long as that continues I think the more characters who
are involved in NPC roles the better. 

Mandos
/s


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Mandos said:
So far I have never seen a GM use this to make a personal gain for the
character and as long as that continues I think the more characters who are
involved in NPC roles the better.

Yes see thats the problem. Because you ran your own character as the prime
benificary of the adventure as the employer your character clearly benifited
and it was 100% for personal gain which is why your character hired the
party. Make no mistake if  I was not working for a Guild Necromancer who was
the character of the GM I was playing under - I would have been far less
likely to have supported and help resolve the adventure to the point where
the demon pacted necro gained from this.

I just didnt like it.

Jono



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 2:21 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


> I think any enrichments was lost on me when the GM started to
> GM their own PC. I felt that I was constranined in the way I
> could play the game and that I started to regard the GM as a
> player, which they are not and it ended up blurring the line
> to the point where I should have stopped playing, and I
> regreat not saying something at the time.

What was constraining you?

I have played with both Ian and Chris using their characters as NPC's
and in both cases it came across that the characters had lives outside
of the adventure sequence, it gave depth to them and min turn made the
world more believable.

So far I have never seen a GM use this to make a personal gain for the
character and as long as that continues I think the more characters who
are involved in NPC roles the better.

Mandos
/s


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I should clarify this:

Mandos and his character received no benefit in the way of items or treasure
etc...
The only benefit was along story-lines.

Jono

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean -TME
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 2:33 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


Mandos said:
So far I have never seen a GM use this to make a personal gain for the
character and as long as that continues I think the more characters who are
involved in NPC roles the better.

Yes see thats the problem. Because you ran your own character as the prime
benificary of the adventure as the employer your character clearly benifited
and it was 100% for personal gain which is why your character hired the
party. Make no mistake if  I was not working for a Guild Necromancer who was
the character of the GM I was playing under - I would have been far less
likely to have supported and help resolve the adventure to the point where
the demon pacted necro gained from this.

I just didnt like it.

Jono



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 2:21 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


> I think any enrichments was lost on me when the GM started to
> GM their own PC. I felt that I was constranined in the way I
> could play the game and that I started to regard the GM as a
> player, which they are not and it ended up blurring the line
> to the point where I should have stopped playing, and I
> regreat not saying something at the time.

What was constraining you?

I have played with both Ian and Chris using their characters as NPC's
and in both cases it came across that the characters had lives outside
of the adventure sequence, it gave depth to them and min turn made the
world more believable.

So far I have never seen a GM use this to make a personal gain for the
character and as long as that continues I think the more characters who
are involved in NPC roles the better.

Mandos
/s


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On 11/17/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
>
> That the PoLs are rabidly anti-magic has been established by some GMs and
> I think that this has caused the majority of the problems and should be
> changed.


Their portrayal has (In my experience and opinion) been inconsistent, but
tending towards the Michaelines being anti-magical and the other Orders
ranging from "tolerating in a good cause" through to "embracing".

Even the Michaelines are not consistent (and I don't just mean between GMs)=
.
One part of avoiding the portrayal of the PoL as a monolithic organization
akin to the medieval Catholic church has been to give the various Sects /
Chapters within the Orders of Light a fair latitude in their creeds.

The credo of some all for Mages, others do not (though the hardliners are
not the majority they are sometimes fun for GMs to use and perhaps have mor=
e
prominence than their numbers would suggest).

I assume that those GMs who have portrayed them as anti-mage are basing the=
m
> on our medieval church-driven magic-is-bad...


Or the original line about the PoL in DQ2 which said that they were opposed
to magic. :-)

In the same way that many players base the PoL aligned characters on
> christian
> priests, knights and crusaders.


Which is fine, (IMHO), though crosses are right out. :-)

I think the attitude of the majority of PoLs should be that magic is
> dangerous.


Yes, definitely. And that attitude can easily lead to desiring restrictions
on magic. Compare with real world and guns. Guns are dangerous in the wrong
hands. Therefore they should (depending on your government / politics) be:
restricted to responsible people / licenced / banned / etc.

Anyone found to be a follower of a PoD is going to be treated with great
> prejudice by the PoLs and vice-versa.


Agreed, though without making the situatiuon unplayable. I'd rather than a
PoL try to "turn" a PoD Agent rather than smiting them, I'd rather have a
PoD try to tempt and corrupt a PoL Agent than attacking outright, etc.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</=
a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>That the PoLs are rabidly anti-magic has been established by some GMs a=
nd I think that this has caused the majority of the problems and should be =
changed.</blockquote><div><br>Their portrayal has (In my experience and opi=
nion) been inconsistent,  but tending towards the Michaelines being anti-ma=
gical and the other Orders ranging from &quot;tolerating in a good cause&qu=
ot; through to &quot;embracing&quot;.
<br><br>Even the Michaelines are not consistent (and I don't just mean betw=
een GMs). One part of avoiding the portrayal of the PoL as a monolithic org=
anization akin to the medieval Catholic church has been to give the various=
 Sects / Chapters within the Orders of Light a fair latitude in their creed=
s.
<br><br>The credo of some all for Mages, others do not (though the hardline=
rs are not the majority they are sometimes fun for GMs to use and perhaps h=
ave more prominence than their numbers would suggest).<br></div><br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 20=
4); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I assume that those GMs who have portrayed them as anti-mage are basing the=
m on our medieval church-driven magic-is-bad...</blockquote><div><br>Or the=
 original line about the PoL in DQ2 which said that they were opposed to ma=
gic. :-)
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">In =
the same way that many players base the PoL aligned characters on christian
<br>priests, knights and crusaders.</blockquote><div><br>Which is fine, (IM=
HO), though crosses are right out. :-) <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I think the attitude of the majority of PoLs should be that magic is danger=
ous.</blockquote><div><br>Yes, definitely. And that attitude can easily lea=
d to desiring restrictions on magic.&nbsp; Compare with real world and guns=
. Guns are dangerous in the wrong hands. Therefore they should (depending o=
n your government / politics) be: restricted to&nbsp; responsible people / =
licenced / banned / etc.=20
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Any=
one found to be a follower of a PoD is going to be treated with great preju=
dice by the PoLs and vice-versa.
</blockquote><div><br>Agreed, though without making the situatiuon unplayab=
le. I'd rather than a PoL try to &quot;turn&quot; a PoD Agent rather than s=
miting them, I'd rather have a PoD try to tempt and corrupt a PoL Agent tha=
n attacking outright, etc.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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I am happy for Isil Eth to be used as an example. I have used her several times. Normally PCs interact with an officer or servant, but on occasion they will meet here.

I will watch the discussion, and see what everyone thinks. 

People either trust me, or they do not. 
I trust myself, and that is enough for me.

Ian


> 
> From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>
> Date: 2005/11/17 Thu PM 12:31:19 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters
> 
> On 11/17/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, who
> > is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposal?
> > Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out?
> >
> 
> While tending to agree with Jono on this, I think Andrew raises a good
> point. If a PC in the party has (to continue the example) Isil Eth as a
> contact and ally then it seems problematic that they should be able unable
> to use that alliance in the game world because Ian is at the moment wearing
> another hat.
> 
> However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian should not
> bring in a GM to run Isil Eth, but could consider making use of another GM
> (who could be a party member willing to not be at the encounter and switch
> hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth. That way (given
> Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and Ian can
> play Isil Eth as a PC.
> 
> BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more
> fictional example.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
> 

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On 11/17/05, <b class="gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div><span><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go and 
visit Isil Eth, who is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under 
your proposal? Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out? </font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>While tending to agree with Jono on this, I think Andrew raises a good point.&nbsp; If a PC in the party has (to continue the example) Isil Eth as a contact and ally then it seems problematic that they should be able unable to use that alliance in the game world because Ian is at the moment wearing another hat.
<br><br>However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian should not bring in a GM to run Isil Eth, but could consider making use of another GM (who could be a party member willing to not be at the encounter and switch hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth.&nbsp; That way (given Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and Ian can play Isil Eth as a PC.
<br><br>BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more fictional example.<br><br>Regards,<br>Martin<br></div><br></div><br>


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Ian said:
"People either trust me, or they do not. "

That misses the point. "Justice must not only be done, but it must be seen to be done."

Do you think our High Court judges would rule on a commercial dispute between two large corporates based on a small share holding in one or other of them? But by the rules they must excuse themsleves from the case.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 3:01 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


I am happy for Isil Eth to be used as an example. I have used her several times. Normally PCs interact with an officer or servant, but on occasion they will meet here.

I will watch the discussion, and see what everyone thinks. 

People either trust me, or they do not. 
I trust myself, and that is enough for me.

Ian


> 
> From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>
> Date: 2005/11/17 Thu PM 12:31:19 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters
> 
> On 11/17/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > If ion Ian Wood's game, some of the PCs want to go and visit Isil Eth, who
> > is a political power in teh Baronies, what does Ian do under your proposal?
> > Bring in another GM to run his character? Say she's out?
> >
> 
> While tending to agree with Jono on this, I think Andrew raises a good
> point. If a PC in the party has (to continue the example) Isil Eth as a
> contact and ally then it seems problematic that they should be able unable
> to use that alliance in the game world because Ian is at the moment wearing
> another hat.
> 
> However, I'd tend to offer the reverse solution to Andrew; Ian should not
> bring in a GM to run Isil Eth, but could consider making use of another GM
> (who could be a party member willing to not be at the encounter and switch
> hats) to moderate the party's interaction with Isil Eth. That way (given
> Jono's theft scenario), the GM-pro tem can run the encounter and Ian can
> play Isil Eth as a PC.
> 
> BTW, if people want to continue with this I'd prefer we used a more
> fictional example.
> 
> Regards,
> Martin
> 
>


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> Ian said:
> "People either trust me, or they do not. "
> 
> That misses the point. "Justice must not only be done, but it 
> must be seen to be done."
> 
> Do you think our High Court judges would rule on a commercial 
> dispute between two large corporates based on a small share 
> holding in one or other of them? But by the rules they must 
> excuse themsleves from the case.

On the other hand this is a game, so a bit different from the High
Court. 

We instead work with the "mediate in favour of the game". If someone
believes that a GM handles their character incorrectly then they can
take it to the Grevance Tribunal. 

So there is no problem and if it becomes a problem we have a procedure
in place....although if it is Ian that causes an issue he would have to
remove himself from the Tribunal :0)

Mandos
/s


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OK, this one i will not let go by.

Jono - no insult taken - IMO you should have stopped playing when it became an issue. You have compounded your error by taking this to the group rather than the GM concerned. Resolve it directly with the GM. anyone on the Grevance Tribunal, suhc as myself, will act as mediator/moderator to assist in clarifying/resolving the issue. 

Just don't turn an isolated incident into a broad condemnation of all GMs. We play/GM for fun. Just dont pile the rules onto the GMs. Early resolution directly wiht the person involved is the key - allows them to review their actions and perhaps modify things along the lines you suggest.

Anyway Jono, good posts.

Mark - nonsense and other comments. <i deleted the rest out of concern for the sensitive eyes of our readers>

Ian

MArk Simpson wrote
> I suspect its just GM laziness that causes them to use their own pc's as employers, rather than any desire to advance their own PC in any way. The GM should just use a "true NPC", or at the most another gm/players' PC who is not involved in the session, as the employer.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Clare Baldock
> Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 12:43 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters
> 
> 
> I have used a PC of mine as party empolyer and this seems common - not
> going along on the adventure or anything like that. What is the
> problem? In fact a GM has used that same character as an NPC, without
> even a by-your-leave, which i felt was a little much to be honest.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> clare
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Sorry didnt think I'd have to spell it out for you but it seems I do:

"You shouldnt be a judge in your own cause."

The same principle applies to a GM who is effectively GMing his own PC. Even where the GM acts entirely above-board and even handedly, there is still the danger of the perception of bias and/or self-interest. It is important for the game, particularly the players in that session, that the there should not be even the possibility of that perception arising. 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 3:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


> Ian said:
> "People either trust me, or they do not. "
> 
> That misses the point. "Justice must not only be done, but it 
> must be seen to be done."
> 
> Do you think our High Court judges would rule on a commercial 
> dispute between two large corporates based on a small share 
> holding in one or other of them? But by the rules they must 
> excuse themsleves from the case.

On the other hand this is a game, so a bit different from the High
Court. 

We instead work with the "mediate in favour of the game". If someone
believes that a GM handles their character incorrectly then they can
take it to the Grevance Tribunal. 

So there is no problem and if it becomes a problem we have a procedure
in place....although if it is Ian that causes an issue he would have to
remove himself from the Tribunal :0)

Mandos
/s


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I thought Mark Simpson's opinions were cogent - they were seriously
swaying me. I'm now a fence sitter.

Is there any need to dismiss someone's posts in passing like that? 

Andrew
-----Original Message-----

Anyway Jono, good posts.

Mark - nonsense and other comments. <i deleted the rest out of concern
for the sensitive eyes of our readers>

Ian


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Mandos Mitchinson said:
> It is all a matter of fundamentalism and how extreme the PoL are played.

Absolutely.  Currently it seems that the majority of the PoLs are fanatics, I would like that
changed so that the majority are moderate.

And there should many shades of belief, some educated PoLs will be aware that Seir is trouble but
not necessarily evil, the less educated will see not-one-of-us therefore must be dangerous and
evil.

I think that it has been establish that the PoLs have better PR in the Baronies and we can
continue with this.
It doesn't mean that there aren't many places where people pay lip service to the PoLs when they
turn up but actually venerate the Wise Duke.  But they are not soldiers or fanatics and are not
interested in fighting over it.

Attempted burnings of buildings openly dedicated to one Power by fanatics of opposed powers should
be fairly common.  But razing it to the ground should only happen if the temple is associated with
 crimes against the village/town.

Outside the Baronies there should be areas when the PoDs are dominant and PoLs treated poorly.

And other areas where they have equal standing.  I like the idea of their being some towns with
the PoLs on one side of god square, PoDs on the other and the followers egging each other across
the square on Saturday nights.
Or others where the head PoL and head PoD meet for lunch to discuss their plans for the next week
to ensure they are not going to conflict anywhere (as per Good Omens).


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> Sorry didnt think I'd have to spell it out for you but it seems I do:
> 
> "You shouldnt be a judge in your own cause."
> 
> The same principle applies to a GM who is effectively GMing 
> his own PC. Even where the GM acts entirely above-board and 
> even handedly, there is still the danger of the perception of 
> bias and/or self-interest. It is important for the game, 
> particularly the players in that session, that the there 
> should not be even the possibility of that perception arising. 

Sorry I hadn't realised you missed the point. 

If there is a perception of bias we have a mechanism to deal with it. 

If there is a serious problem players may take it to the Grevance
Tribunal. If it is not deemed a serious problem then players can avoid
that GM or leave the game. 

This problem (if there is one at all) is between a GM and their players
we do not need more rules for GM's to ignore and people will ignore
this. If I want to run a game with one of my characters as an employer
or NPC I will regardless of the rules.

Although it should be noted here that apart from Jono's dispute with my
use of Dramus (a matter that is easily sorted out between Jono and
myself) there have been no other complaints on this issue in the last
20+ years of the game despite the number of occasions where this has
occoured. 

Mandos
/s


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> Absolutely.  Currently it seems that the majority of the PoLs 
> are fanatics, I would like that changed so that the majority 
> are moderate.
> 
> And there should many shades of belief, some educated PoLs 
> will be aware that Seir is trouble but not necessarily evil, 
> the less educated will see not-one-of-us therefore must be 
> dangerous and evil.
> 
> I think that it has been establish that the PoLs have better 
> PR in the Baronies and we can continue with this. It doesn't 
> mean that there aren't many places where people pay lip 
> service to the PoLs when they turn up but actually venerate 
> the Wise Duke.  But they are not soldiers or fanatics and are 
> not interested in fighting over it.
> 
> Attempted burnings of buildings openly dedicated to one Power 
> by fanatics of opposed powers should be fairly common.  But 
> razing it to the ground should only happen if the temple is 
> associated with  crimes against the village/town.
> 
> Outside the Baronies there should be areas when the PoDs are 
> dominant and PoLs treated poorly.
> 
> And other areas where they have equal standing.  I like the 
> idea of their being some towns with the PoLs on one side of 
> god square, PoDs on the other and the followers egging each 
> other across the square on Saturday nights. Or others where 
> the head PoL and head PoD meet for lunch to discuss their 
> plans for the next week to ensure they are not going to 
> conflict anywhere (as per Good Omens).

Exactly I agree 100%. 

Mandos
/s


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See Molin "The Torch" Torchholder of Sanctuary, the High Priest of
Berith and liason with the United Church as an example. He's not in a
comfortable position when he vists Mordeaux, but he's just doing a job.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Sanctuary_Notables


-----Original Message-----
> 
> And other areas where they have equal standing.  I like the
> idea of their being some towns with the PoLs on one side of 
> god square, PoDs on the other and the followers egging each 
> other across the square on Saturday nights. Or others where 
> the head PoL and head PoD meet for lunch to discuss their 
> plans for the next week to ensure they are not going to 
> conflict anywhere (as per Good Omens).


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On 11/17/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
>
> Currently it seems that the majority of the PoLs are fanatics, I would
> like that
> changed so that the majority are moderate.


I think this is more like: the majority of creatures met by PCs are
dangerous... it's just that they're the memorable ones.

It doesn't seem much different to religion in the real world -- most
religious people are moderate and quiet about it, but the ones that get all
the press are the fundamentalists and fanatics... and that makes it easy to
believe that they're the majority.

In the same way that I'll tend to gloss over the herds of sheep when
adventurers go cross country (unless they're foraging) I'm likely to fail t=
o
mention the completely moderate country Raphaelite priestess and her flock
that do not interfere with the party in any way (unless the party go out of
their way to seek out the locals).

Sir Gaius (the Michaeline nutball) was chosen to lead the PoL forces in
Carzala so that we'd get better articles for the SGT... otherwise we'd be
getting headlines equivalent to: "Methodists fail to picket Harry Potter".

And there should many shades of belief, some educated PoLs will be aware
> that Seir is trouble but not necessarily evil, the less educated will see
> not-one-of-us therefore must be dangerous and evil.


And the _very_ well educated ones that know that the demon with the fair
face can be more insidious and dangerous than the brute. :-)

And other areas where they have equal standing. I like the idea of their
> being some towns with
> the PoLs on one side of god square, PoDs on the other and the followers
> egging each other across the square on Saturday nights.


Oh, you mean Sanctuary?

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</=
a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Currently it seems that the majority of the PoLs are fanatics, I would =
like that<br>changed so that the majority are moderate.</blockquote><div><b=
r>I think this is more like: the majority of creatures met  by PCs are dang=
erous... it's just that they're the memorable ones.
<br><br>It doesn't seem much different to religion in the real world -- mos=
t religious people are moderate and quiet about it, but the ones that get a=
ll the press are the fundamentalists and fanatics... and that makes it easy=
 to believe that they're the majority.
<br><br>In the same way that I'll tend to gloss over the herds of sheep whe=
n adventurers go cross country (unless they're foraging) I'm likely to fail=
 to mention the completely moderate country Raphaelite priestess and her fl=
ock that do not interfere with the party in any way (unless the party go ou=
t of their way to seek out the locals).
<br><br>Sir Gaius (the Michaeline nutball) was chosen to lead the PoL force=
s in Carzala so that we'd get better articles for the SGT... otherwise we'd=
 be getting headlines equivalent to: &quot;Methodists fail to picket Harry =
Potter&quot;.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">And=
 there should many shades of belief, some educated PoLs will be aware that =
Seir is trouble but not necessarily evil, the less educated will see not-on=
e-of-us therefore must be dangerous and evil.
</blockquote><div><br>And the _very_ well educated ones that know that the =
demon with the fair face can be more insidious and dangerous than the brute=
. :-) <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:=
 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex=
;">
And other areas where they have equal standing.&nbsp;&nbsp;I like the idea =
of their being some towns with<br>the PoLs on one side of god square, PoDs =
on the other and the followers egging each other across the square on Satur=
day nights.
</blockquote><div><br>Oh, you mean Sanctuary?<br></div></div><br>

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-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 15:52
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels


On 11/17/05, Stephen Martin < stephenm@castle.pointclark.net
<mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> > wrote: 



Currently it seems that the majority of the PoLs are fanatics, I would like
that
changed so that the majority are moderate.


I think this is more like: the majority of creatures met by PCs are
dangerous... it's just that they're the memorable ones. 

It doesn't seem much different to religion in the real world -- most
religious people are moderate and quiet about it, but the ones that get all
the press are the fundamentalists and fanatics... and that makes it easy to
believe that they're the majority. 

 

My thoughts exactly, which colours PCs and  players perceptions. I suspect
that it's an easy trap for GMs to fall in to as well.
 
Cheers
Errol

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Martin 
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 17 November 2005 15:52<BR><B>To:</B> 
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Demons and 
  Angels<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 11/17/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Stephen 
  Martin</B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</A>&gt; 
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>Currently 
    it seems that the majority of the PoLs are fanatics, I would like 
    that<BR>changed so that the majority are moderate.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>I think this is more like: the majority of creatures met by PCs are 
  dangerous... it's just that they're the memorable ones. <BR><BR>It doesn't 
  seem much different to religion in the real world -- most religious people are 
  moderate and quiet about it, but the ones that get all the press are the 
  fundamentalists and fanatics... and that makes it easy to believe that they're 
  the majority.&nbsp;<BR><BR><SPAN class=839565302-17112005><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=839565302-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>My 
thoughts exactly, which colours PCs and &nbsp;players</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>perceptions. I suspect that it's an easy trap 
for GMs to fall in to as well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839565302-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839565302-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839565302-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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The Grievance tribunal is a totally inappropriate forum to deal with this.  

Its not that the players "know" or even think that the GM has done something "wrong", its the fact mere that they felt uncomfortable with the situation of potential conflict of interest the GM had created. No player is going to bring that to "feeling" to the Grievance Tribunal. 

Make light of it if you will, but its clear that at least one player seriously considered quitting a session half way through because of this perceived conflict of interest (and later regretted not doing so). I've seen a GM wheel in one or other of their characters on a number of occasions in various capacities, and it always just felt wrong to me, not matter whether they were selling us potions/spells (at a very fair price), being party employers or just providing information on a subject they knew something about. 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 3:34 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


> Sorry didnt think I'd have to spell it out for you but it seems I do:
> 
> "You shouldnt be a judge in your own cause."
> 
> The same principle applies to a GM who is effectively GMing 
> his own PC. Even where the GM acts entirely above-board and 
> even handedly, there is still the danger of the perception of 
> bias and/or self-interest. It is important for the game, 
> particularly the players in that session, that the there 
> should not be even the possibility of that perception arising. 

Sorry I hadn't realised you missed the point. 

If there is a perception of bias we have a mechanism to deal with it. 

If there is a serious problem players may take it to the Grevance
Tribunal. If it is not deemed a serious problem then players can avoid
that GM or leave the game. 

This problem (if there is one at all) is between a GM and their players
we do not need more rules for GM's to ignore and people will ignore
this. If I want to run a game with one of my characters as an employer
or NPC I will regardless of the rules.

Although it should be noted here that apart from Jono's dispute with my
use of Dramus (a matter that is easily sorted out between Jono and
myself) there have been no other complaints on this issue in the last
20+ years of the game despite the number of occasions where this has
occoured. 

Mandos
/s


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After reading all this my response is a collossal WTF!

There are a number of reasons to run your PC as an NPC. Some are good
reasons, some are bad. I couldn't care less. People are going to try out
different ways of GMing, some will be good, some will be bad.

Stop complaining about the free beer, godsdamnit!

GMs are going to try different things and because our creative levels are
more akin to Ed Wood than Steven Speilberg, some things are going to tank.
And badly. Or come off wrong, or rub people the wrong way.

So,

I am not in favour of restricting how GMs run their games. Most people find
it hard to think of a 10-13 week plotline as it is. If they think "Well, my
PC would like his lands cleared of orcs, say, that'll be a good game to run
since I know all about the area and the major NPCs there.", bully for them.
Go ahead.

And on the other hand, it should be recognised that the  PC is a NPC and can
have all the nasty a malicious or incompetant party can devise. If they get
swindled, they get swindled, if the party releases a rogue dark-sphere in
your castle, burn down all the inns or accidentally sacrifice the wife to
Asmoday, so be it.

And then with the other, other hand (didn't know I had three hands didya).
GMs, bear in mind that using your own PCs as NPCs may entail a certain
amount of suckage. Avoid if possiable. We should try to minimise the suckage
and now that we've been informed of a potential source (thanks Jono), we
should deal with it.

William


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Willam wrote:
> And on the other hand, it should be recognised that the  PC is a NPC and
can
> have all the nasty a malicious or incompetant party can devise. If they
get
> swindled, they get swindled, if the party releases a rogue dark-sphere in
> your castle, burn down all the inns or accidentally sacrifice the wife to
> Asmoday, so be it.

Yeap, thats a guild party for you. As a GM you give them a mission and turn
them loose and hope they don't decide to take your Adventure dump it in the
toilet and run off on a pub crawl, or some such nonsence.
It doesn't really matter weather your employer is an NPC or a PC. The PC of
the running GM or someone else, after session one what happens on adventure
is not totally within the control of the running GM, with 6 or 7 others
involved, the story takes a life of its own.

Helen


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Ok, let me make this clear. Mark's suggestion that I used a PC as a NPC due
to laziness irritated me. But I can put that irritation aside, with an
earlier post stating the 'laziness' suggestion was 'nonsense'. 

I wish to pursue the real issue as I see it. The merit of his other posts is
unaffected by any of this.

 

I will also leave alone the half dozen times I used one of my PCs as an NPC
over the last 10 or so years, so that I can focus on the major point:  

 

Issues will come up. 

 

WE have a CHOICE on how we deal with those issues, and that choice will
define the game and our enjoyment.

 

We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on an issue by issue basis
as they come up. 

OR 

We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in the moment, as they
arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't work for the player/GM

 

I prefer the latter. 

IMO Players and GMs _must_ resolve issues directly and immediately, OR let
it go. Don't bring it up several months later. Let us resolve things face to
face. And as Mandos has pointed out, if that does not work for us then we
can use the Grievance Tribunal, which is set up exactly to help out and
finalise such things. But always flag the issue immediately, as the
resolution may be very simple.

 

IMO this is a social game and so the mechanics have to be social. The social
way of resolving an issue is to say 'I have an issue with this' followed by
a constructive discussion. And the socially conscious will respond
encouragingly. 

 

The antithesis of the social method is to regulate. Instead of engaging with
another person, we point to a regulation and demand it is followed. I do not
want a list of issue-specific instructions to GMs. I do not want a series of
finger pointing. I want social interaction, whereby we ensure we all get
what we want out of the game.

 

Believe me when I write that I do this for fun. I am not perfect, I make
mistakes, and I also accept suggestions, advice and criticism. I also have
clear ethics and if asked, I will explain what I am doing, and to what
boundaries. I will discuss how issues will be avoided etc. and I may even be
completely wrong on this issue too. But obviously I do not think so.

 

Mark has clearly stated his view that the issue is one of "You shouldn't be
a judge in your own cause." I feel he has stated his case with remarkable
clarity. Regulation however is not the answer (IMO). 

(If this was the only issue I thought would ever arise from DQ, then I would
probably agree with Mark on regulation. However I believe issues will always
arise within a social context, so more and more issues will require more and
more regulation. I therefore propose not to regulate, but rather to
encourage the non-regulatory resolution of issues as they come up.)

 

"Justice must not only be done, but it must be seen to be done." This is a
good point. My difficulty with addressing it is that the issue here is not
'justice' or 'fairness'. It is one of 'perception' of whether I am getting a
fair cut of the cake. And perception is a social thingy. We change our
perception of others through interaction, not by regulation. 

 

I do not doubt the veracity of the issues faced by Jono, Mark, and others,
when GMs used their own PCs as NPCs. I encourage them to resolve their
issues in a way that addresses their particular view on things (as their
issues may be quite different they deserve a tailored approach).

 

WE can choose to regulate, or we can choose to discuss / resolve our issues
as they occur. As I wrote above, most of our issues come from our
perceptions, and they can be erroneous, at best. Better to resolve issues at
source - our perception - through raising the issue.

 

___

I often feel that communication is really two monologues with occasional
connections. Email does not help this! I hope the above is lucid, and
couched in reasonable tones, as I mean it to be objective, and certainly not
personal. 

Head cold, lack of sleep, nurofen, work pressures and hunger. Hmmm, not the
best foundation for objectivity :-D

 

 

Ian

 

 

 

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of

> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)

> Sent: 17 November 2005 15:27

> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz

> Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters

> 

> I thought Mark Simpson's opinions were cogent - they were seriously

> swaying me. I'm now a fence sitter.

> 

> Is there any need to dismiss someone's posts in passing like that?

> 

> Andrew

> -----Original Message-----

> 

> Anyway Jono, good posts.

> 

> Mark - nonsense and other comments. <i deleted the rest out of concern

> for the sensitive eyes of our readers>

> 

> Ian

> 

> 

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Ok, let me make this clear. Mark's suggestion =
that I
used a PC as a NPC due to laziness irritated me. But I can put that =
irritation
aside, with an earlier post stating the 'laziness' suggestion was =
'nonsense'. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I wish to pursue the real issue as I see it. =
The merit
of his other posts is unaffected by any of =
this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I will also leave alone the half dozen times =
I used
one of my PCs as an NPC over the last 10 or so years, so that I can =
focus on
the major point:&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Issues will come up. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>WE have a CHOICE on how we deal with those =
issues, and
that choice will define the game and our =
enjoyment.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We can choose to regulate the playing of the =
game on
an issue by issue basis as they come up. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>OR <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We can choose to have a way of resolving =
issues, in
the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / =
doesn&#8217;t
work for the player/GM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I prefer the latter. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>IMO Players and GMs _must_ resolve issues =
directly and
immediately, OR let it go. Don&#8217;t bring it up several months later. =
Let us
resolve things face to face. And as Mandos has pointed out, if that does =
not
work for us then we can use the Grievance Tribunal, which is set up =
exactly to
help out and finalise such things. But always flag the issue =
immediately, as
the resolution may be very simple.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>IMO this is a social game and so the =
mechanics have to
be social. The social way of resolving an issue is to say 'I have an =
issue with
this' followed by a constructive discussion. And the socially conscious =
will
respond encouragingly. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The antithesis of the social method is to =
regulate.
Instead of engaging with another person, we point to a regulation and =
demand it
is followed. I do not want a list of issue-specific instructions to GMs. =
I do
not want a series of finger pointing. I want social interaction, whereby =
we
ensure we all get what we want out of the =
game.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Believe me when I write that I do this for =
fun. I am
not perfect, I make mistakes, and I also accept suggestions, advice and
criticism. I also have clear ethics and if asked, I will explain what I =
am
doing, and to what boundaries. I will discuss how issues will be avoided =
etc.
and I may even be completely wrong on this issue too. But obviously I do =
not
think so.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mark has clearly stated his view that the =
issue is one
of &quot;You shouldn't be a judge in your own cause.&quot; I feel he has =
stated
his case with remarkable clarity. Regulation however is not the answer =
(IMO). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(If this was the only issue I thought would =
ever arise
from DQ, then I would probably agree with Mark on regulation. However I =
believe
issues will always arise within a social context, so more and more =
issues will
require more and more regulation. I therefore propose not to regulate, =
but
rather to encourage the non-regulatory resolution of issues as they come =
up.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&quot;Justice must not only be done, but it =
must be
seen to be done.&quot; This is a good point. My difficulty with =
addressing it
is that the issue here is not 'justice' or 'fairness'. It is one of
'perception' of whether I am getting a fair cut of the cake. And =
perception is
a social thingy. We change our perception of others through interaction, =
not by
regulation. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I do not doubt the veracity of the issues =
faced by
Jono, Mark, and others, when GMs used their own PCs as NPCs. I encourage =
them
to resolve their issues in a way that addresses their particular view on =
things
(as their issues may be quite different they deserve a tailored =
approach).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>WE can choose to regulate, or we can choose =
to discuss
/ resolve our issues as they occur. As I wrote above, most of our issues =
come
from our perceptions, and they can be erroneous, at best. Better to =
resolve
issues at source - our perception - through raising the =
issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>___<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I often feel that communication is really two
monologues with occasional connections. Email does not help this! I hope =
the
above is lucid, and couched in reasonable tones, as I mean it to be =
objective,
and certainly not personal. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Head cold, lack of sleep, nurofen, work =
pressures and
hunger. Hmmm, not the best foundation for objectivity =
:-D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Andrew Withy (DSL =
AK)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Sent: 17 November 2005 =
15:27<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; To: =
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own =
Characters<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; I thought Mark Simpson's opinions were =
cogent -
they were seriously<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; swaying me. I'm now a fence =
sitter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Is there any need to dismiss someone's =
posts in
passing like that?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Anyway Jono, good =
posts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Mark - nonsense and other comments. =
&lt;i deleted
the rest out of concern<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; for the sensitive eyes of our =
readers&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify
mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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