We should not be putting ourselves or the players in this position, as we
are trying to play a game for fun. Grevance Tribunal is totaly over the top
and if a player is even considering taking a GM to them, then the damage is
already been done. I dont think the risk of the damage is worth it at all.

Jono

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 3:34 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


> Sorry didnt think I'd have to spell it out for you but it seems I do:
>
> "You shouldnt be a judge in your own cause."
>
> The same principle applies to a GM who is effectively GMing
> his own PC. Even where the GM acts entirely above-board and
> even handedly, there is still the danger of the perception of
> bias and/or self-interest. It is important for the game,
> particularly the players in that session, that the there
> should not be even the possibility of that perception arising.

Sorry I hadn't realised you missed the point.

If there is a perception of bias we have a mechanism to deal with it.

If there is a serious problem players may take it to the Grevance
Tribunal. If it is not deemed a serious problem then players can avoid
that GM or leave the game.

This problem (if there is one at all) is between a GM and their players
we do not need more rules for GM's to ignore and people will ignore
this. If I want to run a game with one of my characters as an employer
or NPC I will regardless of the rules.

Although it should be noted here that apart from Jono's dispute with my
use of Dramus (a matter that is easily sorted out between Jono and
myself) there have been no other complaints on this issue in the last
20+ years of the game despite the number of occasions where this has
occoured.

Mandos
/s


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Err - I'm with William on this one. 
The only thing I think you have to be leary of is if you GM your PC's 
'home range' later when some other GM is in the same area it won't be the 
same. And IMO the other GM's ideas have preference (ie you don't get to 
rule on your PC's home - merely hint).

PC as employer is not uncommon - regardless of GM and I've seen this have 
cause conflict than GM with PC as NPC (as the PC wants a specific outcome 
and the party wants to go another way for whatever reason).
If the party clearly talks about the potential conflict early in the game 
then things go a whole lot better.  Eg in the last game I was in we made 
sure our PC employer was NOT party leader - and discussed things that 
might conflict while still in the Guild.  It cleared the air beautifully.

Regards,
Rosemary






William Dymock <dworkin@ihug.co.nz> 
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
17/11/2005 09:08 p.m.
Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz


To
dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc

Subject
Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters






After reading all this my response is a collossal WTF!

There are a number of reasons to run your PC as an NPC. Some are good
reasons, some are bad. I couldn't care less. People are going to try out
different ways of GMing, some will be good, some will be bad.

Stop complaining about the free beer, godsdamnit!

GMs are going to try different things and because our creative levels are
more akin to Ed Wood than Steven Speilberg, some things are going to tank.
And badly. Or come off wrong, or rub people the wrong way.

So,

I am not in favour of restricting how GMs run their games. Most people 
find
it hard to think of a 10-13 week plotline as it is. If they think "Well, 
my
PC would like his lands cleared of orcs, say, that'll be a good game to 
run
since I know all about the area and the major NPCs there.", bully for 
them.
Go ahead.

And on the other hand, it should be recognised that the  PC is a NPC and 
can
have all the nasty a malicious or incompetant party can devise. If they 
get
swindled, they get swindled, if the party releases a rogue dark-sphere in
your castle, burn down all the inns or accidentally sacrifice the wife to
Asmoday, so be it.

And then with the other, other hand (didn't know I had three hands didya).
GMs, bear in mind that using your own PCs as NPCs may entail a certain
amount of suckage. Avoid if possiable. We should try to minimise the 
suckage
and now that we've been informed of a potential source (thanks Jono), we
should deal with it.

William




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Err - I'm with William on this one.
&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The only thing I think you have to be
leary of is if you GM your PC's 'home range' later when some other GM is
in the same area it won't be the same. And IMO the other GM's ideas have
preference (ie you don't get to rule on your PC's home - merely hint).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">PC as employer is not uncommon - regardless
of GM and I've seen this have cause conflict than GM with PC as NPC (as
the PC wants a specific outcome and the party wants to go another way for
whatever reason).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">If the party clearly talks about the
potential conflict early in the game then things go a whole lot better.
&nbsp;Eg in the last game I was in we made sure our PC employer was NOT
party leader - and discussed things that might conflict while still in
the Guild. &nbsp;It cleared the air beautifully.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>William Dymock &lt;dworkin@ihug.co.nz&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">17/11/2005 09:08 p.m.</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>After reading all this my response is a collossal
WTF!<br>
<br>
There are a number of reasons to run your PC as an NPC. Some are good<br>
reasons, some are bad. I couldn't care less. People are going to try out<br>
different ways of GMing, some will be good, some will be bad.<br>
<br>
Stop complaining about the free beer, godsdamnit!<br>
<br>
GMs are going to try different things and because our creative levels are<br>
more akin to Ed Wood than Steven Speilberg, some things are going to tank.<br>
And badly. Or come off wrong, or rub people the wrong way.<br>
<br>
So,<br>
<br>
I am not in favour of restricting how GMs run their games. Most people
find<br>
it hard to think of a 10-13 week plotline as it is. If they think &quot;Well,
my<br>
PC would like his lands cleared of orcs, say, that'll be a good game to
run<br>
since I know all about the area and the major NPCs there.&quot;, bully
for them.<br>
Go ahead.<br>
<br>
And on the other hand, it should be recognised that the &nbsp;PC is a NPC
and can<br>
have all the nasty a malicious or incompetant party can devise. If they
get<br>
swindled, they get swindled, if the party releases a rogue dark-sphere
in<br>
your castle, burn down all the inns or accidentally sacrifice the wife
to<br>
Asmoday, so be it.<br>
<br>
And then with the other, other hand (didn't know I had three hands didya).<br>
GMs, bear in mind that using your own PCs as NPCs may entail a certain<br>
amount of suckage. Avoid if possiable. We should try to minimise the suckage<br>
and now that we've been informed of a potential source (thanks Jono), we<br>
should deal with it.<br>
<br>
William<br>
<br>
<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
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> We should not be putting ourselves or the players in this 
> position, as we are trying to play a game for fun. Grevance 
> Tribunal is totaly over the top and if a player is even 
> considering taking a GM to them, then the damage is already 
> been done. I dont think the risk of the damage is worth it at all.

There are only two possibilities here. 

1. The Gm has used their own character and gained from it, showing bias
etc. This is an actual problem and should be directed to the grevance
tribunal. 

2. The GM has used their character as a game hook, or information source
and has gained nothing from it. This is a GM flavour thing and it is a
personal choice. Ie not a problem. 

Some players may not like people using PC's in this fashion but then
again some people don't like how people play the powers of light, or how
they describe places, or how they control a party, or how they write
adventures.....

All of these things are factors you take into account when you choose
your GM. If a GM uses a mechanic that you don't like you don't go on
that GM's games. I personally avoid GM's with linear story lines, but I
am not going to suggest we put rules in place to stop people running
them.  

Mandos
/s


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Thanks to some Hamiltonians, I was pointed at this posting.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated/browse_thread/thread/5d5344f429f63b56/7c920c529d4f02c5

which I repeat here, cause it's brief.
----
From: jmsatb5@aol.com
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2005 05:34:07 +0000 (UTC)
Lines: 13

For B5 folks down south -- as in way, WAY down south -- pending work
commitments, I'll be appearing at the Armageddon Pulp Culture Expo in
Auckland next year, from October 22-24th 2006. (Also appearing at
thecon: Gates McFadden, John Rhys Davies, and a bunch of other folk.)
This will be my first trip to New Zealand, and I'm looking forward to
seeing the place.

jms
----
O.
M.
F.
G.


TTFN, Struan.


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On 11/17/05, ian at dawn haven <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on an issue by issue
> basis as they come up.
>
> OR
>
> We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in the moment, as they
> arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't work for the player/=
GM
>
> I prefer the latter.
>

Also the former does not actually work.

Even when we have regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP,
the design of magic items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen
not to follow these regulations.

"And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual
rules." :-)

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On 11/17/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">ian at dawn haven</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><=
span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">











<div><p><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10p=
t;" lang=3D"EN-GB">We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on
an issue by issue basis as they come up. </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" l=
ang=3D"EN-GB">OR </span></font></p>

<p><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" l=
ang=3D"EN-GB">We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in
the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't
work for the player/GM</span></font></p>



<p><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" l=
ang=3D"EN-GB">I prefer the latter.</span></font></p></div></blockquote><div=
><br>Also the former does not actually work.<br><br>Even when we have regul=
ated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP, the design of magic it=
ems, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen not to follow these re=
gulations.
<br><br>&quot;And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' th=
an actual rules.&quot; :-)<span></span><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2=
"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" lang=3D"EN-GB"><br></span></font></div><=
/div>
<br>

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I admit I have felt uncomfortable when the GM uses their PC as party
employer - because I don't know if that PC is gaining from it or how.

I think that there is a clear line - PC's as game hooks and easy background
fine.  GM owned PC's gaining from that GM's session not fine.  Mandos makes
this distinction in the email below and I think it is valid.

This does not stop GM's using their PC's as game hooks.

It is not easy or fun to take others to the grevence tribual.  Better to
simpliy say here is the line.  This also makes it clearer when the tribunal
might be in order.  I certinally never considered taking the GM to the
tribunal on my uncomfortable feeling.  However if there was a line then we
could all be clear that this was not being crossed.

H



Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:00 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters

> We should not be putting ourselves or the players in this 
> position, as we are trying to play a game for fun. Grevance 
> Tribunal is totaly over the top and if a player is even 
> considering taking a GM to them, then the damage is already 
> been done. I dont think the risk of the damage is worth it at all.

There are only two possibilities here. 

1. The Gm has used their own character and gained from it, showing bias
etc. This is an actual problem and should be directed to the grevance
tribunal. 

2. The GM has used their character as a game hook, or information source
and has gained nothing from it. This is a GM flavour thing and it is a
personal choice. Ie not a problem. 

Some players may not like people using PC's in this fashion but then
again some people don't like how people play the powers of light, or how
they describe places, or how they control a party, or how they write
adventures.....

All of these things are factors you take into account when you choose
your GM. If a GM uses a mechanic that you don't like you don't go on
that GM's games. I personally avoid GM's with linear story lines, but I
am not going to suggest we put rules in place to stop people running
them.  

Mandos
/s


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Well it seems like there are many of us who've been uncomfortable with =
the practice. It not a "once in 20 years" thing at all.
=20
Yes you cant force any rule down GM's throats, and my feeling is this =
should be a guideline. Hence my initial suggestion that you simply put =
wording into the GM's guide, perhaps something along the lines of "It is =
generally considered innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's =
as npc's in their games, please avoid doing so if at all possible."
=20
BTW Ian I don't know why you think I was referring to you specifically =
in my comment about GM's often using there ownn PC's as NPC's.=20
=20
Laziness was perhaps a little harsh. What I meant was that im sure GM's =
think they have a ready made well defined NPC they can use (if they use =
their own PC) and it saves making up a new NPC. But 9 times out of 10 I =
think a made up NPC could have been used instead, and if it had been =
this problem wouldnt be being talked about.=20

[Simpson, Mark (NZ)]=20
 -----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 9:25 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] choice: regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own =
Characters



On 11/17/05, ian at dawn haven < dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:=20


We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on an issue by issue =
basis as they come up.=20

OR=20

We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in the moment, as they =
arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't work for the =
player/GM

I prefer the latter.


Also the former does not actually work.

Even when we have regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating =
EP, the design of magic items, etc, there have always been GMs who have =
chosen not to follow these regulations.=20

"And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual =
rules." :-)




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<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">


<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Well=20
it seems like there are many of us who've been uncomfortable with the =
practice.=20
It not a "once in 20 years" thing at all.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Yes=20
you cant force any rule down&nbsp;GM's throats, and my feeling is this =
should be=20
a guideline. Hence my initial suggestion that you simply put wording =
into the=20
GM's guide, perhaps something&nbsp;along the lines of&nbsp;"It is =
generally=20
considered innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's as npc's=20
in&nbsp;their games, please avoid doing so if at all=20
possible."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>BTW=20
Ian I don't know why you think I was referring to you =
specifically&nbsp;in my=20
comment about GM's often using there ownn PC's as NPC's. =
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Laziness was perhaps a little harsh. What I meant was that im =
sure GM's=20
think they have a ready made well defined NPC they can use (if they use =
their=20
own PC) and it saves making up a new NPC. But 9 times out of 10 I think =
a made=20
up NPC could have been used instead, and if it had been this problem =
wouldnt be=20
being talked about. </FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D678492520-17112005></SPAN><FONT face=3DTahoma>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D678492520-17112005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff>[Simpson, Mark (NZ)]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D678492520-17112005>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin =
Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Friday, 18 November 2005 9:25 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] choice: regulation or =
resolution=20
-Was GMing your own Characters<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>On 11/17/05, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>ian at dawn =
haven</B>=20
  &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We can choose to regulate the playing of =
the game on=20
    an issue by issue basis as they come up. </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">OR </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We can choose to have a way of resolving =
issues, in=20
    the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / =
doesn't=20
    work for the player/GM</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I prefer the=20
  latter.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Also the former does not actually work.<BR><BR>Even when we =
have=20
  regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP, the design =
of magic=20
  items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen not to follow =
these=20
  regulations. <BR><BR>"And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call=20
  'guidelines' than actual rules." :-)<SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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If the Adventure is properly listed on the Guild meetings Agenda,
If the majority of Players sign up from the pool at the guild meeting,
With scribe notes being taken and reports of last seasons events being =
given.
It should be very obvious to everyone if a GM is giving their PC some in =
game advantage.

And  it should only really be an in game advantage we should worry =
about.
What advantage over your character next time you play with them is their =
character having a 12 ft Master Artisan marble statute in their front =
garden going to make? for example if that's what they paid a party pick =
up for them. Now if it was a true silver Suit of armour, Id be worried.=20
But having expensive taste in art, is just part of the character and a =
way for a person to bleed their character of the sometime silly amounts =
of cash some acquire.
Hell you could argue that the expense of hiring a party disadvantages a =
character, as they might not have the money for that 2nd or third item =
in the treasure split.

Helen

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Johanna and Hamish" <perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own Characters


>=20
>=20
> I admit I have felt uncomfortable when the GM uses their PC as party
> employer - because I don't know if that PC is gaining from it or how.
>=20
> I think that there is a clear line - PC's as game hooks and easy =
background
> fine.  GM owned PC's gaining from that GM's session not fine.  Mandos =
makes
> this distinction in the email below and I think it is valid.
>=20
> This does not stop GM's using their PC's as game hooks.
>=20
> It is not easy or fun to take others to the grevence tribual.  Better =
to
> simpliy say here is the line.  This also makes it clearer when the =
tribunal
> might be in order.  I certinally never considered taking the GM to the
> tribunal on my uncomfortable feeling.  However if there was a line =
then we
> could all be clear that this was not being crossed.
>=20
> H

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the Adventure is properly listed on =
the Guild=20
meetings Agenda,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If the majority of Players sign up from =
the pool at=20
the guild meeting,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>With scribe notes being taken and =
reports of last=20
seasons events being given.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It should be very obvious to everyone =
if a GM is=20
giving their PC some in game advantage.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And&nbsp; it should only really be =
<STRONG>an in=20
game advantage</STRONG> we should worry about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What&nbsp;advantage over your character =
next time=20
you play with them is their character having a 12 ft Master Artisan =
marble=20
statute in their front garden going to make? for example if that's what =
they=20
paid a party&nbsp;pick up for them. Now if it was a true silver Suit of =
armour,=20
Id be worried. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But having expensive taste in art, is =
just part of=20
the character and a way for a person to bleed their character of the =
sometime=20
silly amounts of cash some acquire.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hell you could argue that the expense =
of hiring a=20
party disadvantages a character, as they might not have the money for =
that 2nd=20
or third item in the treasure split.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Johanna and Hamish" =
&lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 9:43=20
AM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] GMing your own=20
Characters</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I admit I have felt uncomfortable when =
the GM uses=20
their PC as party<BR>&gt; employer - because I don't know if that PC is =
gaining=20
from it or how.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think that there is a clear line - =
PC's as=20
game hooks and easy background<BR>&gt; fine.&nbsp; GM owned PC's gaining =
from=20
that GM's session not fine.&nbsp; Mandos makes<BR>&gt; this distinction =
in the=20
email below and I think it is valid.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This does not stop =
GM's=20
using their PC's as game hooks.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; It is not easy or fun =
to take=20
others to the grevence tribual.&nbsp; Better to<BR>&gt; simpliy say here =
is the=20
line.&nbsp; This also makes it clearer when the tribunal<BR>&gt; might =
be in=20
order.&nbsp; I certinally never considered taking the GM to the<BR>&gt; =
tribunal=20
on my uncomfortable feeling.&nbsp; However if there was a line then =
we<BR>&gt;=20
could all be clear that this was not being crossed.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
H<BR></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons
and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly
include it in the upcoming GM's guide. 

However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to present it
to the group for comment. 




== ''The Powers'' =
The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
representations) to influence the realms of man. 

The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice
and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of
Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more
selfish than Evil. 

The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle
past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
active role in the realms of the living and work together. They promote
good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness. 

For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in the hearts
and minds of mortals. 


Mandos
/s


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I'm not sure of "Some of them however ascended to this existence through
no choice of their own and these 'demons' tend to take a more active
role in societies and are more selfish than Evil. "

"some demons ascended through no choice of their own" (paraphrase) seems
unlikely. Are we trying to make some demons victims of society and peer
pressure? Can't we just say they are all nasty power-hungry brutes?

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:05 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] The Powers


In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons
and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly
include it in the upcoming GM's guide. 

However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to present it
to the group for comment. 




=''The Powers'' 
The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
representations) to influence the realms of man. 

The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice
and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of
Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more
selfish than Evil. 

The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle
past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
active role in the realms of the living and work together. They promote
good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness. 

For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in the hearts
and minds of mortals. 


Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Otherwise, I like the tone and implications.

For some reason, silence is sometimes not taken as rapturous praise :(

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:05 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] The Powers


In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons
and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly
include it in the upcoming GM's guide. 

However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to present it
to the group for comment. 




=The Powers'' 
The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
representations) to influence the realms of man. 

The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice
and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of
Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more
selfish than Evil. 

The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle
past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
active role in the realms of the living and work together. They promote
good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness. 

For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in the hearts
and minds of mortals. 


Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> I'm not sure of "Some of them however ascended to this 
> existence through no choice of their own and these 'demons' 
> tend to take a more active role in societies and are more 
> selfish than Evil. "
> 
> "some demons ascended through no choice of their own" 
> (paraphrase) seems unlikely. Are we trying to make some 
> demons victims of society and peer pressure? Can't we just 
> say they are all nasty power-hungry brutes?

Ummm....this actually came from a game where the party was there to
witness the decline/creation of one of the Demons. On reflection the
wording is pretty crap but I wanted to convey that most of them are
vicious power hungry bastards but not all of them. Some merely fell into
evil rather than activly seeking it.....

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

OK, if it was witnessed, then it happened. Objection withdrawn. I like
the phrase "fell into evil" - nice implications of an accidental Fall
from Grace, but they are bad now.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:19 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] The Powers



> I'm not sure of "Some of them however ascended to this
> existence through no choice of their own and these 'demons' 
> tend to take a more active role in societies and are more 
> selfish than Evil. "
> 
> "some demons ascended through no choice of their own"
> (paraphrase) seems unlikely. Are we trying to make some 
> demons victims of society and peer pressure? Can't we just 
> say they are all nasty power-hungry brutes?

Ummm....this actually came from a game where the party was there to
witness the decline/creation of one of the Demons. On reflection the
wording is pretty crap but I wanted to convey that most of them are
vicious power hungry bastards but not all of them. Some merely fell into
evil rather than activly seeking it.....

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 11:19, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> Some merely fell into
> evil rather than activly seeking it.....

"An Angel who did not so much Fall as Saunter Vaguely Downwards."

I like your summary of the PoL and PoD (i.e. it matches my prejudices,
so must be right.)


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Bean -TME [mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 10:49
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training
>=20
>=20
> For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
> 10% Exp discount with a trainer.
> 25% Exp penalty without a trainer. [EGC 'trainer' is a unhelpful word =
in
this instance, see below]
> Can not learn a language without a trainer.
> Can learn from books.
>=20

Rules:
28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills
...
If the character is taught by someone of greater Rank
in the skill, decrease any Experience Point cost by
10%. If the character learns from a book, verbal descriptions
or practices with some of equal or lesser
Rank in the skill, any Experience Point cost is unmodified.
If the character practices with no useful
outside assistance, any Experience Point cost is increased
by 25%. The availability of qualified teachers,
and the fees they charge the character for their
services, are left to the discretion of the GM.






> I as a player worry about it. Again its a 'Frontiers of=20
> Alusia' thing... Not
> all things are available all of the time to everyone. I take=20
> that the stuff
> in the players guide is what we can get from the guild for=20
> training and one
> of the things we can no longer get because of world events is warrior
> training with the Casterland Borders.
>=20
> Then again how many of the GMs even consider it when signing=20
> off ranking?
>=20
> Jono
>=20
>=20

GMs don't generally consider it when signing off ranking (below Rank 8)
because the nearly everything is available at the Guild (per the PG), =
and it
isn't desirable to try to limit PC's ranking due to scheduling issues =
of
available trainers.

The guild offers training in many skills that are currently in great =
demand.
Many of the Guild's weapon trainers will be warriors. I see no reason =
to
have Warrior unavailable, and it should be added to the Military Dept's =
list
IMO.

It would perhaps be useful to make clear what ranks are available in =
Skills
(vs weapons) taught by the Military Dept. Is rank 8 available for all 3 =
(4
if warrior is included)? Should we also say that trainers are available =
for
all standard weapons to their max rank?


Cheers
Errol


Player's Guide:
4.2 MILITARY DEPARTMENT
Location: Guild grounds
The Military Department includes armourer, military scientist, =
weaponsmith,
and weapons training and services.
Services: sale and repair of weapons, armour and general battle =
equipment.
The cost of training weapon skills is
10sp for Rank 0 and 10 x Rank2 thereafter. The cost of training other =
skills
is 150sp per week.

4.3 OTHER SKILLS
This list covers the main training requirements of Adventurers. =
Training is
definitely available up to rank 8; higher
ranks are unlikely. Where the trainer offers other services members may =
be
interested in, these are noted. The Guild
also has arrangements with many other artisan guilds.


Rules:
6 Ranking
6.5 Skills paraphrases parts of 28.1

6.8 Weapons
All weapons are assumed to be unranked initially.
Rank 0 in a weapon takes 1 week. All higher ranks
take 2 =D7 Rank weeks. Weapons have individual maximum
Ranks. EP costs are detailed in =A755. All
Weapons require minimum PS and MD Characteristics.
If you do not fulfil both requirements, you may
not rank a weapon. You may not get an EP discount
for training, but if no trainer is available, you may not
increase in Rank. The cost of a trainer is 10 =D7 Rank
squared (minimum 1) silver pennies.

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Warrior training</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Jonathan Bean -TME [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2005 10:49</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; For skills Unranked to Rank 7:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 10% Exp discount with a trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 25% Exp penalty without a trainer. [EGC =
'trainer' is a unhelpful word in this instance, see below]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Can not learn a language without a =
trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Can learn from books.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rules:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If the character is taught by someone of greater =
Rank</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>in the skill, decrease any Experience Point cost =
by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>10%. If the character learns from a book, verbal =
descriptions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>or practices with some of equal or lesser</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rank in the skill, any Experience Point cost is =
unmodified.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If the character practices with no useful</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>outside assistance, any Experience Point cost is =
increased</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>by 25%. The availability of qualified =
teachers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and the fees they charge the character for =
their</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>services, are left to the discretion of the =
GM.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I as a player worry about it. Again its a =
'Frontiers of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Alusia' thing... Not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; all things are available all of the time to =
everyone. I take </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that the stuff</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; in the players guide is what we can get from =
the guild for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; training and one</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of the things we can no longer get because of =
world events is warrior</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; training with the Casterland Borders.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Then again how many of the GMs even consider it =
when signing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; off ranking?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jono</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>GMs don't generally consider it when signing off =
ranking (below Rank 8) because the nearly everything is available at =
the Guild (per the PG), and it isn't desirable to try to limit PC's =
ranking due to scheduling issues of available trainers.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The guild offers training in many skills that are =
currently in great demand. Many of the Guild's weapon trainers will be =
warriors. I see no reason to have Warrior unavailable, and it should be =
added to the Military Dept's list IMO.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It would perhaps be useful to make clear what ranks =
are available in Skills (vs weapons) taught by the Military Dept. Is =
rank 8 available for all 3 (4 if warrior is included)? Should we also =
say that trainers are available for all standard weapons to their max =
rank?</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Player's Guide:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4.2 MILITARY DEPARTMENT</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Location: Guild grounds</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Military Department includes armourer, military =
scientist, weaponsmith, and weapons training and services.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Services: sale and repair of weapons, armour and =
general battle equipment. The cost of training weapon skills is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>10sp for Rank 0 and 10 x Rank2 thereafter. The cost =
of training other skills is 150sp per week.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>4.3 OTHER SKILLS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>This list covers the main training requirements of =
Adventurers. Training is definitely available up to rank 8; =
higher</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ranks are unlikely. Where the trainer offers other =
services members may be interested in, these are noted. The =
Guild</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>also has arrangements with many other artisan =
guilds.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rules:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>6 Ranking</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>6.5 Skills paraphrases parts of 28.1</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>6.8 Weapons</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>All weapons are assumed to be unranked =
initially.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rank 0 in a weapon takes 1 week. All higher =
ranks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>take 2 =D7 Rank weeks. Weapons have individual =
maximum</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ranks. EP costs are detailed in =A755. All</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Weapons require minimum PS and MD =
Characteristics.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>If you do not fulfil both requirements, you =
may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>not rank a weapon. You may not get an EP =
discount</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>for training, but if no trainer is available, you =
may not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>increase in Rank. The cost of a trainer is 10 =D7 =
Rank</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>squared (minimum 1) silver pennies.</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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While I may quibble over some of the exact words, I agree with the
tone and general approach / indication therein

TTFN

On 11/18/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
> In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons
> and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly
> include it in the upcoming GM's guide.
>
> However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to present it
> to the group for comment.
>
>
>
>
>  ''The Powers''
> The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
> higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
> mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
> representations) to influence the realms of man.
>
> The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
> Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
> Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice
> and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of
> Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
> however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
> these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more
> selfish than Evil.
>
> The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
> themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
> Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle
> past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
> active role in the realms of the living and work together. They promote
> good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
> fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness.
>
> For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
> both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
> fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in the hearts
> and minds of mortals.
>
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I too would prefer slightly different wording for the not-so-evils.
But it looks close enough, I say wiki-away and we can collaborate on the minor wording changes there.

Cheers, Stephen.

Mandos Mitchinson said:
> In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons and Angels discussion I
> am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly include it in the upcoming GM's guide.
>
> However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to present it to the group for
> comment.
>
>
>
>
> == ''The Powers'' The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
> higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of mortals to survive and
> grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
> representations) to influence the realms of man.
>
> The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and Darkness. The Powers of
> Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
> Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice and the dark deeds that
> led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for
> life. Some of them however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and these
> 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more selfish than Evil.
>
> The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
> themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
> Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle past death and now work
> to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an active role in the realms of the living and work
> together. They promote good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
> fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness.
>
> For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to both sides exist and
> while active aggression is encouraged by the more fanatical members of either side the war is
> mostly fought in the hearts and minds of mortals.
>
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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I accept all of Mark's post - below. 

Perhaps the GMs guide should recommend that PCs not be used as NPCs and that GMs should carefully weigh the perceptions of the players, and implications to the game before such use. and spell out some of the possible issues, as each person may have their own. (It is a _guide_ afterall.)

AND - i feel we need to express ourselves, and any issues as they arise. Rosemary gave a good example.

Ian
> 
> From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, "\ Mark\ \(NZ\)" 

> Well it seems like there are many of us who've been uncomfortable with the practice. It not a "once in 20 years" thing at all.
>  
> Yes you cant force any rule down GM's throats, and my feeling is this should be a guideline. Hence my initial suggestion that you simply put wording into the GM's guide, perhaps something along the lines of "It is generally considered innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's as npc's in their games, please avoid doing so if at all possible."
>  
> BTW Ian I don't know why you think I was referring to you specifically in my comment about GM's often using there ownn PC's as NPC's. 
>  
> Laziness was perhaps a little harsh. What I meant was that im sure GM's think they have a ready made well defined NPC they can use (if they use their own PC) and it saves making up a new NPC. But 9 times out of 10 I think a made up NPC could have been used instead, and if it had been this problem wouldnt be being talked about. 
> 
> [Simpson, Mark (NZ)] 
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Martin Dickson
> Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 9:25 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] choice: regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own Characters
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/17/05, ian at dawn haven < dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote: 
> 
> 
> We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on an issue by issue basis as they come up. 
> 
> OR 
> 
> We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't work for the player/GM
> 
> I prefer the latter.
> 
> 
> Also the former does not actually work.
> 
> Even when we have regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP, the design of magic items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen not to follow these regulations. 
> 
> "And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules." :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Well 
it seems like there are many of us who've been uncomfortable with the practice. 
It not a "once in 20 years" thing at all.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes 
you cant force any rule down&nbsp;GM's throats, and my feeling is this should be 
a guideline. Hence my initial suggestion that you simply put wording into the 
GM's guide, perhaps something&nbsp;along the lines of&nbsp;"It is generally 
considered innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's as npc's 
in&nbsp;their games, please avoid doing so if at all 
possible."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>BTW 
Ian I don't know why you think I was referring to you specifically&nbsp;in my 
comment about GM's often using there ownn PC's as NPC's. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Laziness was perhaps a little harsh. What I meant was that im sure GM's 
think they have a ready made well defined NPC they can use (if they use their 
own PC) and it saves making up a new NPC. But 9 times out of 10 I think a made 
up NPC could have been used instead, and if it had been this problem wouldnt be 
being talked about. </FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN 
class=678492520-17112005></SPAN><FONT face=Tahoma>
<DIV><BR><FONT size=2><SPAN class=678492520-17112005><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff>[Simpson, Mark (NZ)]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=678492520-17112005>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original 
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> 
Friday, 18 November 2005 9:25 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> 
dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] choice: regulation or resolution 
-Was GMing your own Characters<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>On 11/17/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>ian at dawn haven</B> 
  &lt;<A href="mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV>
    <P><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on 
    an issue by issue basis as they come up. </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">OR </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in 
    the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't 
    work for the player/GM</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I prefer the 
  latter.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Also the former does not actually work.<BR><BR>Even when we have 
  regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP, the design of magic 
  items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen not to follow these 
  regulations. <BR><BR>"And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 
  'guidelines' than actual rules." :-)<SPAN></SPAN><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><SPAN lang=EN-GB 
  style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


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On 11/18/05, Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
> > For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
> > 10% Exp discount with a trainer.
> > 25% Exp penalty without a trainer. [EGC 'trainer' is a unhelpful word in
> this instance, see below]
> > Can not learn a language without a trainer.
> > Can learn from books.
> >
>
> Rules:
> 28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills
> ...
> If the character is taught by someone of greater Rank
> in the skill, decrease any Experience Point cost by
> 10%. If the character learns from a book, verbal descriptions
> or practices with some of equal or lesser
> Rank in the skill, any Experience Point cost is unmodified.
> If the character practices with no useful
> outside assistance, any Experience Point cost is increased
> by 25%. The availability of qualified teachers,
> and the fees they charge the character for their
> services, are left to the discretion of the GM.

Regrettably Warrior (2.0) trumps this with
49.1 Restrictions
A warrior may never train in the warrior skill without a training
partner of at least equal warrior Rank.
A warrior needs a training partner of at least their current skill
level in order to practice combat, they cannot practice on their own.

TTFN, Struan


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Nice, just keep sending the babies...

Is there scope for some demons to be fallen gods? Ie they became demons through lack of worshipers etc...

Ian


> 
> == ''The Powers'' =
> The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended to a
> higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
> mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
> representations) to influence the realms of man.
> 
> The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
> Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
> Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. This sacrifice
> and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the Powers of
> Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
> however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
> these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies and are more
> selfish than Evil.
> 
> The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
> themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
> Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued their struggle
> past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
> active role in the realms of the living and work together. They promote
> good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
> fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness.
> 
> For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
> both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
> fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in the hearts
> and minds of mortals.
> 
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Very good piece. As Stephen says, it is ready to Wiki IMO.

Is there any significance on the Wiki of 'The Powers' being in Italics, and
the other grouping titles not being?

Does the "Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers" page need an intro para covering the
different groups and how they relate? Playing a PC pacted to what most
consider a 'light grey' entity (which is outside the Alusian PoL/PoD
definition), this comes up fairly often for me.

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:05
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] The Powers
> 
> 
> In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from 
> the Demons
> and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki 
> and possibly
> include it in the upcoming GM's guide. 
> 
> However as it is an area of some debate I thought it best to 
> present it
> to the group for comment. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> == ''The Powers'' =
> The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have 
> ascended to a
> higher state of being through sacrifice. Now they require the souls of
> mortals to survive and grow and may only use Avatars (corporeal
> representations) to influence the realms of man. 
> 
> The Powers are split into two groups, known as the Powers of Light and
> Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
> Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to gain power. 
> This sacrifice
> and the dark deeds that led to this mean that the bulk of the 
> Powers of
> Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for life. Some of them
> however ascended to this existence through no choice of their own and
> these 'demons' tend to take a more active role in societies 
> and are more
> selfish than Evil. 
> 
> The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
> themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.
> Sacrificing their own lives these entities have continued 
> their struggle
> past death and now work to combat the Powers of Darkness. They take an
> active role in the realms of the living and work together. 
> They promote
> good works and encourage the sentient races to live good lives and not
> fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of Darkness. 
> 
> For the mortals caught in this battle most of it is unseen. Temples to
> both sides exist and while active aggression is encouraged by the more
> fanatical members of either side the war is mostly fought in 
> the hearts
> and minds of mortals. 
> 
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Very good piece. As Stephen says, it is ready to Wiki =
IMO.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is there any significance on the Wiki of 'The Powers' =
being in Italics, and the other grouping titles not being?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Does the &quot;Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers&quot; page =
need an intro para covering the different groups and how they relate? =
Playing a PC pacted to what most consider a 'light grey' entity (which =
is outside the Alusian PoL/PoD definition), this comes up fairly often =
for me.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:05</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] The Powers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In an attempt to start to codify some of the =
discussions from </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the Demons</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and Angels discussion I am planning to add this =
to the Wiki </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and possibly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; include it in the upcoming GM's guide. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; However as it is an area of some debate I =
thought it best to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; present it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to the group for comment. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =3D=3D ''The Powers'' =3D</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The Powers of light and dark are powerful =
beings that have </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ascended to a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; higher state of being through sacrifice. Now =
they require the souls of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mortals to survive and grow and may only use =
Avatars (corporeal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; representations) to influence the realms of =
man. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The Powers are split into two groups, known as =
the Powers of Light and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Darkness. The Powers of Darkness are composed =
mostly of Elves and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Dragons who sacrificed the souls of others to =
gain power. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This sacrifice</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and the dark deeds that led to this mean that =
the bulk of the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Powers of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Darkness are Evil beings who have no regard for =
life. Some of them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; however ascended to this existence through no =
choice of their own and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; these 'demons' tend to take a more active role =
in societies </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and are more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; selfish than Evil. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The Powers of Light are comprised of four =
Groups that sacrificed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; themselves in order to curb the power of the =
Powers of Darkness.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sacrificing their own lives these entities have =
continued </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; their struggle</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; past death and now work to combat the Powers of =
Darkness. They take an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; active role in the realms of the living and =
work together. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; They promote</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; good works and encourage the sentient races to =
live good lives and not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fall prey to the blandishments of the Powers of =
Darkness. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; For the mortals caught in this battle most of =
it is unseen. Temples to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; both sides exist and while active aggression is =
encouraged by the more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fanatical members of either side the war is =
mostly fought in </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the hearts</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and minds of mortals. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
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I would say yes and no.
A god that has fallen from favour may become a Demon as part of that pantheon but I consider that
different from a PoD Demon.

As for a fallen god that adopts the PoD method of regaining power without requiring worship -
sounds like an interesting story line.  But presumably not part of the current PoDs.

I guess there is also scope for PoDs/PoLs attempting to become true gods through the power of
worship.  And those that consider themselves gods and are happy to eat any philosophers that
disagree.

I imagine that many gods look down on the PoDs/PoLs as uppity mortals, powerful but not real
'Powers'.

I think that there are multiple Pantheons some of which overlap.  A pantheon is based on the
belief structure of the mortal worshipers.  The gods are in part shaped and defined by their
worshipers, but there are also defining attributes and a core personality that does not change.
The same god might be the God of Smiths in one Pantheon, God of Forge and Fire in another, and
Demon of Fire in another.  Same essential being and powers but different manifestations (Avatars)
and types of worship in the 3 different cultures.  Older gods of short-lived species would
probably have more faces and aspects, younger gods and gods of long-lived races would probably be
more tightly defined as their base of worship has not changed much.

All these are ideas, but I would prefer not to define how gods work too much and leave lots of
room for speculation and theories.  Gods are more interesting if they are never truely understood.
But what we should do is document what is known about various pantheons (and how they feel about
each other, other pantheons, and the PoD/PoLs) so that the next GM can pick up where we left off
and maintain consistency.

Cheers, Stephen.

>
> Is there scope for some demons to be fallen gods? Ie they became demons through lack of
> worshipers etc...
>
> Ian


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I don't agree with this wording.

 

I was trying to put forward something that would be more acceptable give the
strong views of people on this list.  

 

The words might be "GM PC won't benefit from sessions run GM'ed by the GMs"

 

H

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 10:00 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] choice: regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own
Characters

 

Well it seems like there are many of us who've been uncomfortable with the
practice. It not a "once in 20 years" thing at all.

 

Yes you cant force any rule down GM's throats, and my feeling is this should
be a guideline. Hence my initial suggestion that you simply put wording into
the GM's guide, perhaps something along the lines of "It is generally
considered innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's as npc's in
their games, please avoid doing so if at all possible."

 

BTW Ian I don't know why you think I was referring to you specifically in my
comment about GM's often using there ownn PC's as NPC's. 

 

Laziness was perhaps a little harsh. What I meant was that im sure GM's
think they have a ready made well defined NPC they can use (if they use
their own PC) and it saves making up a new NPC. But 9 times out of 10 I
think a made up NPC could have been used instead, and if it had been this
problem wouldnt be being talked about. 


[Simpson, Mark (NZ)] 

 -----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 9:25 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] choice: regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own
Characters

On 11/17/05, ian at dawn haven <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote: 

We can choose to regulate the playing of the game on an issue by issue basis
as they come up. 

OR 

We can choose to have a way of resolving issues, in the moment, as they
arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't work for the player/GM

I prefer the latter.


Also the former does not actually work.

Even when we have regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating EP,
the design of magic items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen
not to follow these regulations. 

"And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual
rules." :-)

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>I =
don&#8217;t
agree with this wording.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>I was =
trying to
put forward something that would be more acceptable give the strong =
views of
people on this list.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>The =
words might
be &#8220;GM PC won&#8217;t benefit from sessions run GM&#8217;ed by the =
GMs&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua";color:blue'>H<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, November =
18, 2005
10:00 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] choice:
regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own =
Characters</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Well it seems like there are many =
of us
who've been uncomfortable with the practice. It not a &quot;once in 20
years&quot; thing at all.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Yes you cant force any rule =
down&nbsp;GM's
throats, and my feeling is this should be a guideline. Hence my initial
suggestion that you simply put wording into the GM's guide, perhaps
something&nbsp;along the lines of&nbsp;&quot;It is generally considered
innappropriate for a GM to use his or her own pc's as npc's =
in&nbsp;their
games, please avoid doing so if at all =
possible.&quot;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>BTW Ian I don't know why you think =
I was
referring to you specifically&nbsp;in my comment about GM's often using =
there
ownn PC's as NPC's. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Laziness was perhaps a little =
harsh. What
I meant was that im sure GM's think they have a ready made well defined =
NPC
they can use (if they use their own PC) and it saves making up a new =
NPC. But 9
times out of 10 I think a made up NPC could have been used instead, and =
if it
had been this problem wouldnt be being talked about. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[Simpson, Mark =
(NZ)]&nbsp;</span></font><font
face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>&nbsp;-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Martin
Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, 18 November =
2005
9:25 a.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] choice:
regulation or resolution -Was GMing your own =
Characters<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 11/17/05, <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>ian at dawn =
haven</span></b>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt; =
wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>We can choose to regulate the playing of the =
game on
an issue by issue basis as they come up. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>OR </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>We can choose to have a way of resolving =
issues, in
the moment, as they arise. With a back up method if that fails / doesn't =
work
for the player/GM</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New"'>I prefer the =
latter.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Also the former does not actually work.<br>
<br>
Even when we have regulated -- amounts of treasure, ways of calculating =
EP, the
design of magic items, etc, there have always been GMs who have chosen =
not to
follow these regulations. <br>
<br>
&quot;And thirdly, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than =
actual
rules.&quot; :-)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

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> Very good piece. As Stephen says, it is ready to Wiki IMO. 

Nope, tis a poorly written and hurried piece, but time will smooth the
edges. 

> Is there any significance on the Wiki of 'The Powers' being in
Italics, and
> the other grouping titles not being? 

When the page was created the title was =="The Powers"== the "'s make it
italics. I suspect it was unintentional and I have removed the "'s so it
looks like the other headings. 

> Does the "Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers" page need an intro para covering
the different
> groups and how they relate? 

Now we have a vague definition of how the Powers work together it
shouldn't be too hard to start adding to it. Since the definition allows
for temples to both PoL and PoD the worship of other entities is
certainly feasable. Leaving most of it quite vague allows GM's to add
their own Gods (One Horned or otherwise) to the Pantheon as they see
fit. The only definate difference I see is I don't think Gods should
have quite the physical prescence the Angel/Demon Avatars represent. 

> Playing a PC pacted to what most consider a 'light grey' entity 
> (which is outside the Alusian PoL/PoD definition), this comes 
> up fairly often for me.

I take it this is OHG? If so it seems fine, a small localised religion
spreading where ever like minded adults gather :-) What do you as a
player feel you are missing from the religion that could be
added/documented?

Mandos
/s


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> I don't agree with this wording.
>
> I was trying to put forward something that would be more acceptable
> give the strong views of people on this list.  
>  
> The words might be "GM PC won't benefit from sessions run GM'ed by the
GMs"

I have a minor quibble over the "It is generally considered
innappropriate" section given that the list appears (from those who have
picked a side) to be about 55/45 split with the slight majority not
seeing it as an issue. 

But sure add it in and the 55% of us can ignore it.

Mandos
/s


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> If the Adventure is properly listed on the Guild meetings
> Agenda, If the majority of Players sign up from the pool
> at the guild meeting, With scribe notes being taken and
> reports of last seasons events being given. It should be
> very obvious to everyone if a GM is giving their PC some
> in game advantage.
>
> And  it should only really be an in game advantage we
> should worry about. What advantage over your character
> next time you play with them is their character having a
> 12 ft Master Artisan marble statute in their front garden
> going to make? for example if that's what they paid a
> party pick up for them. Now if it was a true silver Suit
> of armour, Id be worried.  But having expensive taste in
> art, is just part of the character and a way for a person
> to bleed their character of the sometime silly amounts of
> cash some acquire. Hell you could argue that the expense
> of hiring a party disadvantages a character, as they might
> not have the money for that 2nd or third item in the
> treasure split.

I agree with Helen on this. I can't see any problem with a
GM using one of their PCs  as an NPC, except when the PC was
going to benefit in any way. Also any GM PC should not
eclipse the efforts of the actual PCs in the adventure,
after all, it is their story. The GM PC should only be there
to help them out if they really need it, or to provide
services to the party to help them. However, using the GM PC
as a 'deux ex machina' may not be a good idea.

That's my 2c on it anyway.

Keith


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On 11/18/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>
> ''The Powers''
> The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings that have ascended...


I like the idea of using "Powers" as the geneic PoL, PoD term.


The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and
> Dragons...


Perhaps "Drow", or "drow Elves"? There are a few draconic types, but not
many, and no doubt some were human... I'd be tempted towards more: "Many of
the PoD were once Drow..."

> Some of them however ascended to this existence through no choice of thei=
r
> own...


Seconding / thirding the unlikeliness of this. :-) Even after meeting
Astronia / Seir.

The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups...


*cough* Five. :-)

that sacrificed themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of
> Darkness.


Like that, yes.

They take an active role in the realms of the living and work together.


Mostly work together. There are times they find themselves in disagreement
over specifics but their general goals are aligned.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/18/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><=
span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<br> ''The Powers''<br>The Powers of light and dark are powerful beings tha=
t have ascended...</blockquote><div><br>I like the idea of using &quot;Powe=
rs&quot; as the geneic PoL, PoD term. &nbsp;<br> <br></div><br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); m=
argin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
The Powers of Darkness are composed mostly of Elves and<br>Dragons...</bloc=
kquote><div><br>Perhaps &quot;Drow&quot;, or &quot;drow Elves&quot;?&nbsp; =
There are a few draconic types, but not many, and no doubt some were human.=
.. I'd be tempted towards more: &quot;Many of the PoD were once Drow...&quo=
t;
<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px=
 solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">S=
ome of them however ascended to this existence through no choice of their o=
wn...
</blockquote><div><br>Seconding / thirding the unlikeliness of this. :-)&nb=
sp; Even after meeting Astronia / Seir.<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups...</blockquote><div><br>*c=
ough* Five. :-) <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
 that sacrificed themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Dar=
kness.</blockquote><div><br>Like that, yes. <br></div><br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin=
: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
They take an active role in the realms of the living and work together.</bl=
ockquote><div><br>Mostly work together. There are times they find themselve=
s in disagreement over specifics but their general goals are aligned.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 12:47


<snip>

> 
> > Does the "Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers" page need an intro 
> para covering
> the different
> > groups and how they relate? 
> 
> Now we have a vague definition of how the Powers work together it
> shouldn't be too hard to start adding to it. Since the 
> definition allows
> for temples to both PoL and PoD the worship of other entities is
> certainly feasable. Leaving most of it quite vague allows GM's to add
> their own Gods (One Horned or otherwise) to the Pantheon as they see
> fit. The only definate difference I see is I don't think Gods should
> have quite the physical prescence the Angel/Demon Avatars represent. 
> 

Agree with this, except that I would think that a Pantheon is a collection
of Gods in a given belief system. Gods etc outside that system are a part of
a different Pantheon.

> > Playing a PC pacted to what most consider a 'light grey' entity 
> > (which is outside the Alusian PoL/PoD definition), this comes 
> > up fairly often for me.
> 
> I take it this is OHG? If so it seems fine, a small localised religion
> spreading where ever like minded adults gather :-) What do you as a
> player feel you are missing from the religion that could be
> added/documented?
> 

Not so much what is missing specifically from OHG's religion, rather I think
the end result of interactions with PoD/PoL (and other pantheons) should be
noted as a general case.
A specific example is that most manisfestations/followers of the PoL
tolerate Darien as a likely ally against the PoD, and he is generally no
more than slightly uncomfortable within say a PoL cathedral (vs the Demon
worshipper getting zapped as they cross the threshold). On occasion, he has
gained positive benefit from PoL, although somewhat less than a PoL follower
would have/has got. Darien is religiously hostile to the PoD, but pragmatic.

I often have a short discussion with GMs about my religion (generally
pre-emptive), so they can work out the interaction with the local religious
authority. The result of this as been within (religious) reason to date IMO.
I understand that fanatics possibly will be hostile regardless of common
goals, but haven't come across this in a significant way.

So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers page about how followers,
clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities tend to react to those
aligned with other religious systems would be good. For instance, it may not
immediately occur to all GMs that the hard-line knights pacted to a plane's
earth-mother will attack Darien as a dangerous heretic, while the villagers
with a tolerant priest following the same God may welcome him (or kill on
sight as well due to the fanatics having paid a recent visit).
I feel too close to the question to write it myself.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Other Powers</TITLE>
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 12:47</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Does the &quot;Gods, Demi-Gods and =
Powers&quot; page need an intro </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; para covering</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; groups and how they relate? </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Now we have a vague definition of how the =
Powers work together it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; shouldn't be too hard to start adding to it. =
Since the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; definition allows</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; for temples to both PoL and PoD the worship of =
other entities is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; certainly feasable. Leaving most of it quite =
vague allows GM's to add</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; their own Gods (One Horned or otherwise) to the =
Pantheon as they see</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fit. The only definate difference I see is I =
don't think Gods should</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; have quite the physical prescence the =
Angel/Demon Avatars represent. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agree with this, except that I would think that a =
Pantheon is a collection of Gods in a given belief system. Gods etc =
outside that system are a part of a different Pantheon.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Playing a PC pacted to what most consider a =
'light grey' entity </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; (which is outside the Alusian PoL/PoD =
definition), this comes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; up fairly often for me.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I take it this is OHG? If so it seems fine, a =
small localised religion</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spreading where ever like minded adults gather =
:-) What do you as a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; player feel you are missing from the religion =
that could be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; added/documented?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Not so much what is missing specifically from OHG's =
religion, rather I think the end result of interactions with PoD/PoL =
(and other pantheons) should be noted as a general case.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A specific example is that most =
manisfestations/followers of the PoL tolerate Darien as a likely ally =
against the PoD, and he is generally no more than slightly =
uncomfortable within say a PoL cathedral (vs the Demon worshipper =
getting zapped as they cross the threshold). On occasion, he has gained =
positive benefit from PoL, although somewhat less than a PoL follower =
would have/has got. Darien is religiously hostile to the PoD, but =
pragmatic. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I often have a short discussion with GMs about my =
religion (generally pre-emptive), so they can work out the interaction =
with the local religious authority. The result of this as been within =
(religious) reason to date IMO. I understand that fanatics possibly =
will be hostile regardless of common goals, but haven't come across =
this in a significant way.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers page =
about how followers, clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities =
tend to react to those aligned with other religious systems would be =
good. For instance, it may not immediately occur to all GMs that the =
hard-line knights pacted to a plane's earth-mother will attack Darien =
as a dangerous heretic, while the villagers with a tolerant priest =
following the same God may welcome him (or kill on sight as well due to =
the fanatics having paid a recent visit).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I feel too close to the question to write it =
myself.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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On 11/18/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> I would say yes and no.
> A god that has fallen from favour may become a Demon as part of that
> pantheon but I consider that different from a PoD Demon.


It has been discussed before however that a demon might be a transcended
mortal who has somehow assumed the "mantle" of a weak / fallen / dead god.

I imagine that many gods look down on the PoDs/PoLs as uppity mortals,
> powerful but not real
> 'Powers'.


:-) I do quite like the idea of perhaps reserving "Powers" for the PoD and
PoL -- this is a minor wording change the goes towards Jono's suggestion of
not describing the PoL as demons (little "d") while still using a word that
has already been applied to them.

All these are ideas, but I would prefer not to define how gods work too muc=
h
> and leave lots of
> room for speculation and theories. Gods are more interesting if they are
> never truely understood.


Agreed, Gods have been fairly standoffish in DQ historically, not taking to=
o
much part in daily life. Even from the earliest days of the campaign there
was the idea of the God's "covenant" about non-interference, or at least no
direct interference... at least that is my understanding from the notes Gar=
y
once gave me.

But what we should do is document what is known about various pantheons (an=
d
> how they feel about each other, other pantheons, and the PoD/PoLs) so tha=
t
> the next GM can pick up where we left off and maintain consistency.


Sounds useful.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/18/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</=
a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt=
 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I would say yes and no.<br>A god that has fallen from favour may become a D=
emon as part of that pantheon but I consider that different from a PoD Demo=
n.</blockquote><div><br>It has been discussed before however that a demon m=
ight be a transcended mortal who has somehow assumed the &quot;mantle&quot;=
 of a weak / fallen / dead god.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I i=
magine that many gods look down on the PoDs/PoLs as uppity mortals, powerfu=
l but not real
<br>'Powers'.</blockquote><div><br>:-)&nbsp; I do quite like the idea of pe=
rhaps reserving &quot;Powers&quot; for the PoD and PoL -- this is a minor w=
ording change the goes towards Jono's suggestion of not describing the PoL =
as demons (little &quot;d&quot;) while still using a word that has already =
been applied to them.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">All=
 these are ideas, but I would prefer not to define how gods work too much a=
nd leave lots of
<br>room for speculation and theories.&nbsp;&nbsp;Gods are more interesting=
 if they are never truely understood.</blockquote><div><br>Agreed, Gods hav=
e been fairly standoffish in DQ historically, not taking too much part in d=
aily life.&nbsp; Even from the earliest days of the campaign there was the =
idea of the God's &quot;covenant&quot; about non-interference, or at least =
no direct interference... at least that is my understanding from the notes =
Gary once gave me.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">But=
 what we should do is document what is known about various pantheons (and h=
ow they feel about each other, other pantheons, and the PoD/PoLs) so that t=
he next GM can pick up where we left off and maintain consistency.
</blockquote><div><br>Sounds useful.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></di=
v><br>

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On 11/18/05, Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
> So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers page about how followers=
,
> clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities tend to react to those
> aligned with other religious systems would be good...


[snip]

> I feel too close to the question to write it myself.


What would be useful is a description of the OHG religion -- place of
origin, type of worship, nature of worshippers, beliefs, creed, nature of
the OHG itself, etc

This would make working out the reaction so the PoL etc easier.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/18/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Errol Cavit</b> &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">ecavit@tollnz.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">
<span class=3D"q"></span><font size=3D"2">So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-=
Gods and Powers page about how followers, clergy, and manifestations of god=
-level entities tend to react to those aligned with other religious systems=
 would be good...
</font></blockquote><div><br>[snip]<br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font size=3D"2">I feel too close to the =
question to write it myself.
</font></blockquote><div><br>What would be useful is a description of the O=
HG religion -- place of origin, type of worship, nature of worshippers, bel=
iefs, creed, nature of the OHG itself, etc<br><br>This would make working o=
ut the reaction so the PoL etc easier.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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> Perhaps "Drow", or "drow Elves"?  There are a few draconic types, but
not many, and
> no doubt some were human... I'd be tempted towards more: "Many of the
PoD were once Drow..." 

I thought the assentions occoured at around the time of the War of Tears
and as such everyone was still elven. 

Mandos
/s


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> So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers page about how
followers,
> clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities tend to react to
those
> aligned with other religious systems would be good. For instance, it
may
> not immediately occur to all GMs that the hard-line knights pacted to
a
> plane's earth-mother will attack Darien as a dangerous heretic, while
the
> villagers with a tolerant priest following the same God may welcome
him
> (or kill on sight as well due to the fanatics having paid a recent
visit).

It might pay to put together a page similar to the ones I am working on
for some of the Powers, that details the beliefs, followers etc. 

Based on this I will be adding to the Sier and Aim ones how they get on
with other followers.

If we use a similar template across the board and plenty of links it
will make it easy to track who is talking to who :-)

Mandos
/s


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I agree - warrior was left of the list accidentally.

I think that all military skills should be available to at least rank 8 , 
and I could be convinced to go to rank 10.
Weapons should go to their max rank.

Can someone add this to the list of edits for the Players Guide on the 
wiki (http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Player%27s_Guide) as 
I can't edit the wiki (don't ask !!!)

Rosemary




Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> 
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
18/11/2005 11:48 a.m.
Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz


To
dq@dq.sf.org.nz
cc

Subject
Re: [dq] Warrior training






GMs don't generally consider it when signing off ranking (below Rank 8) 
because the nearly everything is available at the Guild (per the PG), and 
it isn't desirable to try to limit PC's ranking due to scheduling issues 
of available trainers.
The guild offers training in many skills that are currently in great 
demand. Many of the Guild's weapon trainers will be warriors. I see no 
reason to have Warrior unavailable, and it should be added to the Military 
Dept's list IMO.
It would perhaps be useful to make clear what ranks are available in 
Skills (vs weapons) taught by the Military Dept. Is rank 8 available for 
all 3 (4 if warrior is included)? Should we also say that trainers are 
available for all standard weapons to their max rank?
Cheers 
Errol 

Player's Guide: 
4.2 MILITARY DEPARTMENT 
Location: Guild grounds 
The Military Department includes armourer, military scientist, 
weaponsmith, and weapons training and services. 
Services: sale and repair of weapons, armour and general battle equipment. 
The cost of training weapon skills is 
10sp for Rank 0 and 10 x Rank2 thereafter. The cost of training other 
skills is 150sp per week. 



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I agree - warrior was left of the list
accidentally.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think that all military skills should
be available to at least rank 8 , and I could be convinced to go to rank
10.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Weapons should go to their max rank.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Can someone add this to the list of
edits for the Players Guide on the wiki (http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Player%27s_Guide)
as I can't edit the wiki (don't ask !!!)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rosemary</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Errol Cavit &lt;ecavit@tollnz.co.nz&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">18/11/2005 11:48 a.m.</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [dq] Warrior training</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<p><font size=2>GMs don't generally consider it when signing off ranking
(below Rank 8) because the nearly everything is available at the Guild
(per the PG), and it isn't desirable to try to limit PC's ranking due to
scheduling issues of available trainers.</font>
<p><font size=2>The guild offers training in many skills that are currently
in great demand. Many of the Guild's weapon trainers will be warriors.
I see no reason to have Warrior unavailable, and it should be added to
the Military Dept's list IMO.</font>
<p><font size=2>It would perhaps be useful to make clear what ranks are
available in Skills (vs weapons) taught by the Military Dept. Is rank 8
available for all 3 (4 if warrior is included)? Should we also say that
trainers are available for all standard weapons to their max rank?</font>
<p><font size=2>Cheers</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
Errol</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<p><font size=2>Player's Guide:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
4.2 MILITARY DEPARTMENT</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
Location: Guild grounds</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
The Military Department includes armourer, military scientist, weaponsmith,
and weapons training and services.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
Services: sale and repair of weapons, armour and general battle equipment.
The cost of training weapon skills is</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2><br>
10sp for Rank 0 and 10 x Rank2 thereafter. The cost of training other skills
is 150sp per week.</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<p>
<p>
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Helen Said:

"I think that there is a clear line - PC's as game hooks and easy background
fine.  GM owned PC's gaining from that GM's session not fine.  Mandos makes
this distinction in the email below and I think it is valid."



Ian Said:

""Justice must not only be done, but it must be seen to be done." This is a good point. My difficulty with addressing it is that the issue here is not 'justice' or 'fairness'. It is one of 'perception' of whether I am getting a fair cut of the cake."


The "justice must be seen to be done" quote above is all about perception, rather than whether there is actual benefit/bias. You must never put yourself in the situation where your circumstances may cause the possibility of a perception of bias/favour to arise. The whole point is that the players feel uncomfortable because the GM has put his or her character into the adventure in a position where it is possible they may be accruing some benefit. I am sure most (if not all) of the time the GM is not bestowing any benefit on his/her character BUT only the GM is in a position to really access that. Hence, even though there wasn't a benefit, the players cannot know that and leave with a bad taste in their mouths. 

The damage to the game is that very perception of the situation in the eyes of the players (the "uncomfortableness" that the GM's PC may be gaining something), not whether there is actual benefit to the GM's PC. Hence the recommendation  for a blanket prohibition against it in the GM's guide.


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This is what is currently being used yes
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Greater Enchantment costs


>
> Greater Enchantments
>
> Apprentices
> Open: 6am till 9pm
> Price: 1,000sp plus 250sp per ounce of Black Myrrh
> Casting Info: Rank 9, 1 hour ritual, BC: 99% - cast by apprentices,
> Duration: One season
> Effect: Bonus to selected area for percentage checks of 1+ 1/rank
> 10%  1 Area    1,000sp
> 10%  2 Areas   3,250sp
> 10%  3 Areas   5,500sp
> 10%  4 Areas   7,750sp
>
> Hirkim
> Open: 9am till 7pm (10 pm on Guild Days)
> Price: 2,500sp plus 250sp per ounce of Black Myrrh
> Casting Info: Rank 15, 1 hour ritual, BC: 107% - cast by Hirkim chief E &
E,
> Duration: One season
> Effect: Bonus to selected area for percentage checks of 1+ 1/rank
> 16%  1 Area    2,500sp
> 16%  2 Areas   6,250sp
> 16%  3 Areas  10,000sp
> 16%  4 Areas  13,750sp
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Keith Smith
> Sent: Saturday, 18 December 2004 1:54 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Greater Enchantment costs
>
>
> Could someone, as a reminder, please post what the current cost for Guild
> Greaters is ..
>
> Thanks
>
> Keith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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------_=_NextPart_001_01C5EBEF.AD0FB108
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Yes, they should have an entry on that page. Unfortunately the GM who
started the God is no longer around, plus there is GM-only info on the
religion, but I'll see what I can do. (I have a one-page sitrep that I give
to GMs that covers much of this).
 
What is more important IMO is the general case of inter-Pantheon relations.
They come up more often than the specific OHG/PoL case, and there are more
factors to consider than those that a given GM or player may have thought
of. Most important outcome is that the GM can justify a wide range of
reactions (even across followers of the same religion), and go for BDE.
Those only familiar with the more obvious aspects of the modern-day
real-world situation may not realise this.
 
Detail of specific matchings/pairs on pages for those Greater Entities (??
how's that for a collective term??) is obviously also useful, but they
should be seen as examples of the wide range of possibilities.
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 13:53
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Other Powers


On 11/18/05, Errol Cavit < ecavit@tollnz.co.nz <mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>
> wrote: 


So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers page about how followers,
clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities tend to react to those
aligned with other religious systems would be good... 


[snip]
 

I feel too close to the question to write it myself. 


What would be useful is a description of the OHG religion -- place of
origin, type of worship, nature of worshippers, beliefs, creed, nature of
the OHG itself, etc

This would make working out the reaction so the PoL etc easier. 

Cheers,
Martin




------_=_NextPart_001_01C5EBEF.AD0FB108
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<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes, 
they should have an entry on that page. Unfortunately the GM who started the God 
is no longer around, plus there is GM-only info on the religion, but I'll see 
what I can do. (I have a one-page sitrep that I give to GMs that covers much of 
this).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff>What is more important IMO is the general case of inter-Pantheon 
relations.&nbsp;They come up more often than the specific OHG/PoL case, and 
there are more factors to consider than those that a given GM or player may have 
thought of. Most important outcome is that the GM can justify a wide range of 
reactions (even across followers of the same religion), and go for BDE. Those 
only familiar with the more obvious aspects of the modern-day real-world 
situation may not realise this.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff>Detail of specific matchings/pairs on pages for those Greater 
Entities (?? how's that for a collective term??) is obviously also useful, but 
they should be seen as examples of the wide range of 
possibilities.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=427325400-18112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT size=2>-----Original 
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 18 November 2005 
  13:53<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Other 
  Powers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 11/18/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Errol 
  Cavit</B> &lt;<A href="mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">ecavit@tollnz.co.nz</A>&gt; 
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><SPAN 
    class=q></SPAN><FONT size=2>So a paragraph on the Gods, Demi-Gods and Powers 
    page about how followers, clergy, and manifestations of god-level entities 
    tend to react to those aligned with other religious systems would be good... 
    </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>[snip]<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><FONT 
    size=2>I feel too close to the question to write it myself. 
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>What would be useful is a description of the OHG religion -- place of 
  origin, type of worship, nature of worshippers, beliefs, creed, nature of the 
  OHG itself, etc<BR><BR>This would make working out the reaction so the PoL etc 
  easier. <BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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ChrisC added it at
<http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php?title=Player%27s_Guide&oldid
=6785> 08:57, 22 Sep 2005

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
RMansfield@ingnz.com
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 15:12
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Players Guide v3



Hi, 

I was looking at the master of the Players Guide yesterday and noticed that
it has most of the outstanding changes already loaded. 

I'd therefore like to finish it off with the aim of issuing ver 3 by the Dec
meeting.  By issuing I actually mean loading the PDF onto the Wiki and other
relevant web sites for players to print for themselves : - ) 

Taking the Outstanding Issues List from the Wiki the current state of play
follows.  The stuff in italics needs action - if any one has quick answers
or comments to these let me know by email. 




Skills 
* Assassin => what's the problem with assassin? 




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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=490424103-18112005>ChrisC 
added it&nbsp;at&nbsp;<A 
href="http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php?title=Player%27s_Guide&amp;oldid=6785"><STRONG><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3> 08:57, 22 Sep 
2005</FONT></STRONG></A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT size=2>-----Original 
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> 
  RMansfield@ingnz.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 18 November 2005 
  15:12<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Players Guide 
  v3<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Hi,</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I was looking at the master of the 
  Players Guide yesterday and noticed that it has most of the outstanding 
  changes already loaded.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I'd 
  therefore like to finish it off with the aim of issuing ver 3 by the Dec 
  meeting. &nbsp;By issuing I actually mean loading the PDF onto the Wiki and 
  other relevant web sites for players to print for themselves : - )</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Taking the Outstanding Issues List from 
  the Wiki the current state of play follows. &nbsp;The stuff in italics needs 
  action - if any one has quick answers or comments to these let me know by 
  email. </FONT><BR><BR>
  <P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR><FONT size=2><B>Skills 
  </B></FONT><BR><FONT size=2><I>* Assassin =&gt; what's the problem with 
  assassin?</I></FONT> <BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On 11/18/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
> I thought the assentions occoured at around the time of the War of Tears
> and as such everyone was still elven.


Agree on timing... as to "race" yes, perhaps so... I've always assumed the
proto-drow (that is, those would would become detectably / racially drow)
arose at the time of the Civil War -- whether they would have been
detectable at that time as different by a DA is a good question, whether
describing an elf who ascribed to the "drow" philosophy as a "Drow" is
another question.

OK, I guess either is fine.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/18/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><=
span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
I thought the assentions occoured at around the time of the War of Tears<br=
>and as such everyone was still elven.</blockquote><div><br>Agree on timing=
... as to &quot;race&quot; yes, perhaps so... I've always assumed the proto=
-drow (that is, those would would become detectably / racially drow) arose =
at the time of the Civil War -- whether they would have been detectable at =
that time as different by a DA is a good question, whether describing an el=
f who ascribed to the &quot;drow&quot; philosophy as a &quot;Drow&quot; is =
another question.
<br><br>OK, I guess either is fine.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div=
><br>

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On 11/18/05, RMansfield@ingnz.com <RMansfield@ingnz.com> wrote:

> *Language List *
>
> Any additions required?
> * Eloran =3D done
>
> This is a church language - details to follow once I fossick them out! (w=
ho
> is "I" )
>

Probably the "I" is Chris Caufield. Eloran is an elven based language most
similar to Lalange.

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On 11/18/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:RMansfield@ing=
nz.com">RMansfield@ingnz.com</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:RMansfield@ingnz=
.com">RMansfield@ingnz.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
/span>
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(2=
04, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><p><font size=
=3D"2"><b>Language List </b></font>
</p><p><font size=3D"2">Any additions required? </font>
<br><font size=3D"2">* Eloran =3D done</font>
</p><p><font size=3D"2">This is a church language - details to follow once =
I fossick
them out! </font><font face=3D"sans-serif" size=3D"2">(who is &quot;I&quot;=
 )</font></p></blockquote><div><br>Probably the &quot;I&quot; is Chris Cauf=
ield.&nbsp; Eloran is an elven based language most similar to Lalange.<br><=
/div>
</div>

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I have looked at the GM contact list (and other stuff on page 6 of the 
Guide) and had some thoughts I'd like 2nd opinions on:


1.14 Getting a Rule Book
I am going to reference the Wiki rather than publishing details

1.15 GM contact list
- Would this be better moved to the Wiki?

- Personal Phone numbers available on a web site is generally considered a 
bad thing
        Even if we don't move the contact details onto the Wiki the 
Players Guide should be on the Wiki
        I think phone numbers should be removed - maybe with a note that 
folks can request phone numbers by email ???
        Maybe it's just me - I don't want my home number on a web site

1.16 Web Pages and Mailing Lists
This will be updated and will include addressses for the library, the 
wiki, GM's assistance, and the Vault

Regards,
Rosemary

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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have looked at the GM contact list
(and other stuff on page 6 of the Guide) and had some thoughts I'd like
2nd opinions on:</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1.14 Getting a Rule Book</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am going to reference the Wiki rather
than publishing details</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1.15 GM contact list</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">- Would this be better moved to the
Wiki?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">- Personal Phone numbers available on
a web site is generally considered a bad thing</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Even
if we don't move the contact details onto the Wiki the Players Guide should
be on the Wiki</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I
think phone numbers should be removed - maybe with a note that folks can
request phone numbers by email ???</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Maybe
it's just me - I don't want my home number on a web site</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">1.16 Web Pages and Mailing Lists</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This will be updated and will include
addressses for the library, the wiki, GM's assistance, and the Vault</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
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----- Original Message -----=20
From: RMansfield@ingnz.com=20

1.15 GM contact list=20

-- Personal Phone numbers available on a web site is generally =
considered a bad thing=20
        Even if we don't move the contact details onto the Wiki the =
Players Guide should be on the Wiki=20
        I think phone numbers should be removed - maybe with a note that =
folks can request phone numbers by email ???=20
        Maybe it's just me - I don't want my home number on a web site=20

I Agree with you there
While the Phones numbers would be better for those who don't have or =
have limited EMail access eg. though work.
With everything going on line these days the Ph nos should be removed, =
you can get physical addresses from them for a start. I know one day you =
all will be out for 3 hours.
Perhaps it might be better to have a note that goes some thing like =
players with limited email access could try sending their phone number =
and good time, day, to call to the GM.

Helen
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D""><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>From:=20
RMansfield@ingnz.com <BR><BR>1.15 GM contact list <BR><BR>-- Personal =
Phone=20
numbers available on a web site is generally considered a bad=20
thing&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Even if=20
we don't move the contact details onto the Wiki the Players Guide should =
be on=20
the Wiki <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I think phone =
numbers=20
should be removed - maybe with a note that folks can request phone =
numbers by=20
email ??? <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe it's just =
me - I=20
don't want my home number on a web site <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I Agree with you =
there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>While the Phones =
numbers would be=20
better for those who don't have or have limited EMail access eg. though=20
work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>With everything going =
on line these=20
days the Ph nos should be removed, you can get physical addresses from =
them for=20
a start. I know one day you all will be out for 3 hours.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Perhaps it might be=20
better&nbsp;to&nbsp;have a note that goes some thing like players with =
limited=20
email access could try sending&nbsp;their phone number and good time, =
day, to=20
call to the GM.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Struan Judd
> Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:58
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training
> 
> 
> On 11/18/05, Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
> > > Jono wrote:
> > > For skills Unranked to Rank 7:
> > > 10% Exp discount with a trainer.
> > > 25% Exp penalty without a trainer. [EGC 'trainer' is a 
> unhelpful word in
> > this instance, see below]
> > > Can not learn a language without a trainer.
> > > Can learn from books.
> > >
> >
> > Rules:
> > 28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills
> > ...
> > If the character is taught by someone of greater Rank
> > in the skill, decrease any Experience Point cost by
> > 10%. If the character learns from a book, verbal descriptions
> > or practices with some of equal or lesser
> > Rank in the skill, any Experience Point cost is unmodified.
> > If the character practices with no useful
> > outside assistance, any Experience Point cost is increased
> > by 25%. The availability of qualified teachers,
> > and the fees they charge the character for their
> > services, are left to the discretion of the GM.
> 
> Regrettably Warrior (2.0) trumps this with
> 49.1 Restrictions
> A warrior may never train in the warrior skill without a training
> partner of at least equal warrior Rank.
> A warrior needs a training partner of at least their current skill
> level in order to practice combat, they cannot practice on their own.
> 

Is it worth adding a general 'Some skills have additional restrictions' to
prompt people to check for special cases? If we keep it general we don't
have to worry about getting contradictions in the rulebook.

Cheers
Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Warrior training</TITLE>
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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Struan Judd</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 18 November 2005 11:58</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Warrior training</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; On 11/18/05, Errol Cavit =
&lt;ecavit@tollnz.co.nz&gt; wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jono wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; For skills Unranked to Rank 7:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 10% Exp discount with a =
trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 25% Exp penalty without a trainer. =
[EGC 'trainer' is a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; unhelpful word in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; this instance, see below]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Can not learn a language without a =
trainer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Can learn from books.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Rules:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 28.1 Acquiring and Using Skills</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; ...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; If the character is taught by someone of =
greater Rank</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; in the skill, decrease any Experience =
Point cost by</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 10%. If the character learns from a book, =
verbal descriptions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; or practices with some of equal or =
lesser</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Rank in the skill, any Experience Point =
cost is unmodified.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; If the character practices with no =
useful</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; outside assistance, any Experience Point =
cost is increased</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; by 25%. The availability of qualified =
teachers,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; and the fees they charge the character for =
their</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; services, are left to the discretion of =
the GM.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Regrettably Warrior (2.0) trumps this =
with</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 49.1 Restrictions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; A warrior may never train in the warrior skill =
without a training</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; partner of at least equal warrior Rank.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; A warrior needs a training partner of at least =
their current skill</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; level in order to practice combat, they cannot =
practice on their own.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is it worth adding a general 'Some skills have =
additional restrictions' to prompt people to check for special cases? =
If we keep it general we don't have to worry about getting =
contradictions in the rulebook.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Helen Saggers wrote:

>This is what is currently being used yes
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
>To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
>Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 7:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [dq] Greater Enchantment costs
>
>
>  
>
>>Greater Enchantments
>>
>>Apprentices
>>Open: 6am till 9pm
>>Price: 1,000sp plus 250sp per ounce of Black Myrrh
>>Casting Info: Rank 9, 1 hour ritual, BC: 99% - cast by apprentices,
>>Duration: One season
>>Effect: Bonus to selected area for percentage checks of 1+ 1/rank
>>10%  1 Area    1,000sp
>>10%  2 Areas   3,250sp
>>10%  3 Areas   5,500sp
>>10%  4 Areas   7,750sp
>>
>>Hirkim
>>Open: 9am till 7pm (10 pm on Guild Days)
>>Price: 2,500sp plus 250sp per ounce of Black Myrrh
>>Casting Info: Rank 15, 1 hour ritual, BC: 107% - cast by Hirkim chief E &
>>    
>>
>E,
>  
>
>>Duration: One season
>>Effect: Bonus to selected area for percentage checks of 1+ 1/rank
>>16%  1 Area    2,500sp
>>16%  2 Areas   6,250sp
>>16%  3 Areas  10,000sp
>>16%  4 Areas  13,750sp
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:owner-dq@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>>Keith Smith
>>Sent: Saturday, 18 December 2004 1:54 p.m.
>>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>>Subject: [dq] Greater Enchantment costs
>>
>>
>>Could someone, as a reminder, please post what the current cost for Guild
>>Greaters is ..
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Keith
>>
>>
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>>
>>    
>>
>
>
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>
>
>  
>
What are the costs for someone requesting hirkim for a rank 12 Greater?

A table of costs or a formula so that PC's can select the rank they get 
according to their budget would be very useful.

Scott Whitaker


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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kharsis" <kharsis@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Players Guide v3 (Greater Enchantment costs)


> What are the costs for someone requesting hirkim for a rank 12 Greater?
>
> A table of costs or a formula so that PC's can select the rank they get
> according to their budget would be very useful.
>
> Scott Whitaker

Its can simpley be adapted from whats give,  up to rank 9,1000sp for the E&E
plus the myrrh cost
For Hirkim up to ranks 10 to 16, 2500sp plus Myrrh, the cost of the mage is
the same it takes the same time to cast the ritual what ever the rank after
all.
Keeping it simple.

Helen


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>From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
>In an attempt to start to codify some of the discussions from the Demons
>and Angels discussion I am planning to add this to the Wiki and possibly
>include it in the upcoming GM's guide.

>The Powers of Light are comprised of four Groups that sacrificed
>themselves in order to curb the power of the Powers of Darkness.

What about the fith sometimes PoL (or PoD depending on who you ask)?

Also I know of at least one PC who is actively trying to gain/convert 
worshipers for Seir in an effort to raise him from mere Power to full 
Godhood.

TTFN
Michael

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>The damage to the game is that very perception of the situation in the eyes of the players (the "uncomfortableness" that the GM's PC may be gaining something), not whether there is actual benefit to the GM's PC. Hence the recommendation  for a blanket prohibition against it in the GM's guide.
>  
>

Should people also refrain from GMing friends and loved ones because of 
the clear conflict of interest that could be surmised in those 
circumstances?  Surely such collusion in the obvious result of people 
trying to get around the prohibition about using a write up with your 
signature on it.


Or, alternatively we could simply pretend that the majority of players 
are no longer thirteen years old.



ben


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It seems to me the solution is simple;

If the PC is the employer and stands to profit from the adventure then they 
should either, commision the party and then step back taking no active part 
in the adventure, (I would be tempted to leave them in the pub)

or if they want to participate as a party member get some one else to GM the 
game. The second option might need a little pior consultation if the world 
is unique to the GM/PC employer.

If a GMs PC is a reconised pervayor of info or merchandise I have no problem 
with the players interacting with them briefly. But it should be player 
driven not a plot point that must be accomplished.

TTFN
Michael

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