SubjectRe: [dq] Demons and Angels
FromJacqui Smith
DateSun, 27 Nov 2005 00:33:53 +1300
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At 15:54 16/11/05, you wrote:
>I think the word 'Demon' has too much baggage for some people, and is not
>the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I think=
 is
>worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the 'bad guys'
>to be bad.
>
>Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0
>Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons
>themselves,'
>I think this part needs to be changed.

In fact the term "demon" is inaccurate, and carries perhaps too much=20
cultural baggage.

More correct is the term "daimon" defined below:

dai=B7mon
VARIANT FORMS: also de=B7mon or dae=B7mon
NOUN: Greek Mythology 1. An inferior deity, such as a deified hero. 2. An=20
attendant spirit; a genius.

The background for the POD in DQ suggests that they are mortals become=20
immortal through dubious means, and thus more "deified villains" than=20
"deified heroes". They have at some point taken on the names and something=
=20
of nature of the arch-demons of medieval church mythology - a unfortunate=20
choice on the part of the original writers, but one we are stuck with.=20
Similarly the POL are named for archangels -  although I might add that=20
there are a whole lot more named archangels in mythology than just the=20
five. However the term "daimon" does cover both the POD and POL, while the=
=20
term "demon" really does not fit with the POL.

What we have is a collection of arch-angels and demons without God or Satan=
=20
- a peculiar cosmology, one that must confuse new players, and one that=20
inevitably leads to contradictions in play.

What I personally would like to see is the POL GMed as essentially good,=20
selfless entities, who unfortunately sometimes fail to see the wood for the=
=20
trees... plainly not "nice" and certainly not politically correct. While=20
they consider magic too powerful for the hands of mortals, they would not=20
disdain its use appropriately channelled through their followers. Some of=20
those followers are fanatics - some of them hate magic, and magic-users,=20
but others would be more tolerant, and allow that non-believers might use=20
magic in a just cause - the enemy of my enemy is tolerated and all that.=20
However, they should be portrayed as the "good guys" or at least the=20
"trying-do-to-the-right-thing" brigade.

It is clear that priests of the POL do have some powers which are not=20
currently covered in the magic systems - the ability to create areas of=20
consecration being the most obvious. One possibility for that ability is=20
that it is a ritual performed, not by an individual, but by a group of=20
priests - a reflection of the nature of the POL themselves, and not=20
something available to PCs by its nature. They may be able to remove curses=
=20
in similar fashion, and perhaps create holy water and such like items.

The POD are all villains in my book - of varying stripes, from the outright=
=20
nasty and/or bonkers, to the insidious evil which is Seir and his ilk.=20
Their followers vary from the outright evil to the plain misguided. And=20
they don't care if mortals use magic - as long as it advances their cause.=
=20
And that cause is not the happiness of mortals...

Speaking of Seir, if there *is* a public "church" of Seir in Seagate I'd=20
expect it to be burnt down at least as regularly as a certain infamous=20
tavern. A clandestine operation would be much more to Seir's tastes I'm=20
sure, and more likely to survive the mob.

Jacqui (who's finally back and working her way through two weeks of back=
 email)


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<body>
At 15:54 16/11/05, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">I think the word 'Demon' has =
too
much baggage for some people, and is not<br>
the intended description. I agree this is a minor change, but one I think
is<br>
worth doing. I for one want the 'good guys' to be good, and the 'bad
guys'<br>
to be bad.<br><br>
Within the document: THE ELOHIM v1.0<br>
Page one it says: 'Whilst the Powers of Light are technically Demons<br>
themselves,'<br>
I think this part needs to be changed. </blockquote><br>
In fact the term &quot;demon&quot; is inaccurate, and carries perhaps too
much cultural baggage.<br><br>
More correct is the term &quot;daimon&quot; defined below:<br><br>
dai=B7mon<br>
<font size=3D2 color=3D"#000020">VARIANT FORMS:</font><font color=3D"#000020=
">
also <b>de=B7mon</b> or <b>dae=B7mon</b> <br>
</font><font size=3D2 color=3D"#000020">NOUN:</font><font color=3D"#000020">
<i>Greek Mythology</i> <b>1.</b> An inferior deity, such as a deified
hero. <b>2.</b> An attendant spirit; a genius. <br><br>
The background for the POD in DQ suggests that they are mortals become
immortal through dubious means, and thus more &quot;deified
villains&quot; than &quot;deified heroes&quot;. They have at some point
taken on the names and something of nature of the arch-demons of medieval
church mythology - a unfortunate choice on the part of the original
writers, but one we are stuck with. Similarly the POL are named for
archangels -&nbsp; although I might add that there are a whole lot more
named archangels in mythology than just the five. However the term
&quot;daimon&quot; does cover both the POD and POL, while the term
&quot;demon&quot; really does not fit with the POL.<br><br>
What we have is a collection of arch-angels and demons without God or
Satan - a peculiar cosmology, one that must confuse new players, and one
that inevitably leads to contradictions in play. <br><br>
What I personally would like to see is the POL GMed as essentially good,
selfless entities, who unfortunately sometimes fail to see the wood for
the trees... plainly not &quot;nice&quot; and certainly not politically
correct. While they consider magic too powerful for the hands of mortals,
they would not disdain its use appropriately channelled through their
followers. Some of those followers are fanatics - some of them hate
magic, and magic-users, but others would be more tolerant, and allow that
non-believers might use magic in a just cause - the enemy of my enemy is
tolerated and all that. However, they should be portrayed as the
&quot;good guys&quot; or at least the
&quot;trying-do-to-the-right-thing&quot; brigade. <br><br>
It is clear that priests of the POL do have some powers which are not
currently covered in the magic systems - the ability to create areas of
consecration being the most obvious. One possibility for that ability is
that it is a ritual performed, not by an individual, but by a group of
priests - a reflection of the nature of the POL themselves, and not
something available to PCs by its nature. They may be able to remove
curses in similar fashion, and perhaps create holy water and such like
items.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>
The POD are all villains in my book - of varying stripes, from the
outright nasty and/or bonkers, to the insidious evil which is Seir and
his ilk. Their followers vary from the outright evil to the plain
misguided. And they don't care if mortals use magic - as long as it
advances their cause. And that cause is not the happiness of mortals...
<br><br>
Speaking of Seir, if there *is* a public &quot;church&quot; of Seir in
Seagate I'd expect it to be burnt down at least as regularly as a certain
infamous tavern. A clandestine operation would be much more to Seir's
tastes I'm sure, and more likely to survive the mob.<br><br>
Jacqui (who's finally back and working her way through two weeks of back
email)<br><br>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
Frommhyoung
DateSun, 27 Nov 2005 04:47:08 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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MessageRewrite this bit or give an example as I dont have a clue what =
your talking about

Regards,
Michael
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:49 PM
  Subject: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries

  I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would =
make the spec grevs a little more integratable into other rules. If we =
sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit means a minor spec grev, =
and a high ones digit means a bad spec grev, then we can do things like:

  * Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means =
max damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light =
spec grev.

  * Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank =
(when from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rewrite this bit or give an example as =
I dont have=20
a clue what your talking about</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michael</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 26, =
2005 9:49=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Specific Grievous =

  Injuries</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've =
also been=20
  playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would make the spec =
grevs a=20
  little more integratable into other rules. If we sort the spec grevs =
such that=20
  a low ones digit means a minor spec grev, and a high ones digit means =
a bad=20
  spec grev, then we can do things like:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* =
Use the "D" in=20
  damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means max damage comes =
with a=20
  nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light spec =
grev.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* =
Give Assassins a=20
  minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank (when from surprise, =
etc).=20
  This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Wicca and Assassins
FromJacqui Smith
DateSun, 27 Nov 2005 09:47:20 +1300
At 11:05 17/11/05, you wrote:
>Assassins Guild what Assassins Guild there is no such thing.
>OOC we have in a way, there are PC Assassins out there learning the skill 
>from others, Starflower will teach and admits to having high ranks in the 
>skill.
>For those who want to be more discreate there are other options, its just 
>as the book says "make you own arrangements" so we do.

Starflower is however quite choosy about those to whom she teaches the "Art 
of Justice". And her ranks are not that high - only rank six. I would say 
that most PC assassins are inclined to pick and choose to whom they teach 
the secrets of the art. Incidentally, Starflower has a  write-up to confirm 
she was taught Rank 0 assassin - I'd recommend write-ups for assassin 
training like that.

It is a curious anomaly that not so long ago Starflower felt the necessity 
to teach Phaeton the rudiments of the art - so that the Guild's number one 
pacifist could use a sap to knock people out without killing them....

It is generally considered that PCs may start with Rank 0 assassin - if and 
only if their character background justifies it. I have allowed this on 
occasion.

Jacqui


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SubjectRe: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
FromCosmo
DateSun, 27 Nov 2005 12:00:29 +1300
I've read it as when you determine a Spec Grev has been accomplished you 
roll for damage in the normal way and the number rolled on that dice is 
held over to be used on the Spec Grev table.  Another dice is rolled to 
provide the 10's and combined with original number thrown for the damage 
as the 1's number.  Assassins however, may increase that original number 
up to their Rank in Assassin in the appropriate situations.

I like it as it doesn't make the Assassin's Spec any more often than 
currently, but the Spec's they get will be much more nasty.

It would also void the perennial about whose Lesser Enchantment is 
applied to the roll.



ben


mhyoung wrote:

> Rewrite this bit or give an example as I dont have a clue what your 
> talking about
>  
> Regards,
> Michael
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
>     *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz <mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:49 PM
>     *Subject:* [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
>      
>     I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that
>     would make the spec grevs a little more integratable into other
>     rules. If we sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit means
>     a minor spec grev, and a high ones digit means a bad spec grev,
>     then we can do things like:
>      
>     * Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This
>     means max damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min damage comes
>     with a light spec grev.
>      
>     * Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their
>     rank (when from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for
>     an assassin.
>      
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Demons and Angels
FromMartin Dickson
DateSun, 27 Nov 2005 23:32:45 +1300
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On 11/27/05, Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> More correct is the term "daimon" defined below:


Without disputing that
Daimon<http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/daimon.html>is a perfectly
good term for these beings, the word itself is simply the
Greek from which both Demon and Daemon are derived, and is not different in
meaning.

The background for the POD in DQ suggests that they are mortals become
> immortal through dubious means, and thus more "deified villains" than
> "deified heroes". They have at some point taken on the names and somethin=
g
> of nature of the arch-demons of medieval church mythology - a unfortunate
> choice on the part of the original writers, but one we are stuck with.


Ahh... this is a combination of two pieces of info -- the original DQ has
demons named (in the most part) from the Lesser Key of
Solomon<http://www.sacred-texts.com/grim/lks/>,
the idea that they are "deified villains" was a later addition, part of an
attempt to move away from a pseduo-catholic PoD, PoL, and explain the
absence of a supreme diety or chief demon -- two things that have never bee=
n
in this campaign.

Similarly the POL are named for archangels -  although I might add that
> there are a whole lot more named archangels in mythology than just the fi=
ve.


Sort of... [all outside of DQ]...  the names vary on the different lists,
but oddly enough almost all sources agree that there are seven Archangels
(except Muslim lore which acknowledges only 4).

As to DQ, no mention of Archangels is made in the DQ 2 rules -- just a
passing reference to the PoL and their opposition to magic. If I recall
correctly, back when I started playing only Michael and Uriel were known /
had been named, Gabriel and Raphael came a bit later, and Sammael later
again.

However the term "daimon" does cover both the POD and POL, while the term
> "demon" really does not fit with the POL.


I'm still concerned that daimon or daemon is still too close linguistically=
,
and simply sounds too much the same, and may still carry too much baggage..=
.
but definitely agree that it was an error to apply demon as a generic term
to cover both factions.

What we have is a collection of arch-angels and demons without God or Satan
> - a peculiar cosmology, one that must confuse new players, and one that
> inevitably leads to contradictions in play.


Which suggests that their nature and origins need a little extra emphasis t=
o
remove the " suggests" from "that they are mortals become immortal" -- and
make it clear that the Archangles are not messengers of the divine, and nor
the demons rebellious angels.

While [the PoL] consider magic too powerful for the hands of mortals, they
> would not disdain its use appropriately channelled through their
> followers.... However, they should be portrayed as the "good guys" or at
> least the "trying-do-to-the-right-thing" brigade.


I agree, and also think the anti-magic stance needs careful toning in order
for the heavily magical Guild / PCs and the PoL to not end up as natural
enemies.  Uneasy allies is OK, but make them enemies from the point of view
of PCs and they will never be seen as "white hats".

The POD are all villains in my book - of varying stripes, from the outright
> nasty and/or bonkers, to the insidious evil which is Seir and his ilk.


Yes, tend to agree.  The charming and urbane ones have simply discovered
that you can catch more flies with honey as it were.  Even those that appea=
r
helpful and principled will still have an enourmous sense of self interest
and be working towards their own goals -- in order to become demons in the
first place these transformed mortals have to have been both powerful and
massively ego-centric.

Their followers vary from the outright evil to the plain misguided. And the=
y
> don't care if mortals use magic - as long as it advances their cause. And
> that cause is not the happiness of mortals...
>
> Speaking of Seir, if there *is* a public "church" of Seir in Seagate I'd
> expect it to be burnt down at least as regularly as a certain infamous
> tavern. A clandestine operation would be much more to Seir's tastes I'm
> sure, and more likely to survive the mob.


I don't see "the mob" having much against Seir, who is presumably seen by
simple people as a minor deity of wealth and prosperity (and perhaps
gambling)... I don't see how this would be much different ot a cult of
Mercury.

The PoL may wish to burn it down / shut it down, but unless they are the
official religion in the area (and my understanding is that the Western
Church has limited standing in Carzala) then they will be asking the Duke t=
o
shut it down, and he is likely to be telling the varous religious groups
that he wants them to all play nicely and to not cause trouble in town.

Cheers,
Martin

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<div>On 11/27/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Jacqui Smith</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz">flamis@ihug.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
More correct is the term &quot;daimon&quot; defined below:</blockquote><div=
><br>
Without disputing that <a href=3D"http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/daimon=
.html">Daimon</a>
is a perfectly good term for these beings, the word itself is simply
the Greek from which both Demon and Daemon are derived, and is not
different in meaning.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020">The background for the POD in DQ suggests that they are mo=
rtals become
immortal through dubious means, and thus more &quot;deified
villains&quot; than &quot;deified heroes&quot;. They have at some point
taken on the names and something of nature of the arch-demons of medieval
church mythology - a unfortunate choice on the part of the original
writers, but one we are stuck with.</font></blockquote><div><br>
Ahh... this is a combination of two pieces of info -- the original DQ has d=
emons named (in the most part) from the <a href=3D"http://www.sacred-texts.=
com/grim/lks/">Lesser Key of Solomon</a>,
the idea that they are &quot;deified villains&quot; was a later addition, p=
art of
an attempt to move away from a pseduo-catholic PoD, PoL, and explain
the absence of a supreme diety or chief demon -- two things that have
never been in this campaign.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020"> Similarly the POL are named for
archangels -&nbsp; although I might add that there are a whole lot more
named archangels in mythology than just the five.</font></blockquote><div><=
br>
Sort of... [all outside of DQ]...&nbsp; the names vary on the different
lists, but oddly enough almost all sources agree that there are seven
Archangels (except Muslim lore which acknowledges only 4).<br>
<br>
As to DQ, no mention of Archangels is made in the DQ 2 rules -- just a
passing reference to the PoL and their opposition to magic. If I recall
correctly, back when I started playing only Michael and Uriel were
known / had been named, Gabriel and Raphael came a bit later, and
Sammael later again.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020"> However the term
&quot;daimon&quot; does cover both the POD and POL, while the term
&quot;demon&quot; really does not fit with the POL.</font></blockquote><div=
><br>
I'm still concerned that daimon or daemon is still too close
linguistically, and simply sounds too much the same, and may still
carry too much baggage... but definitely agree that it was an error to
apply demon as a generic term to cover both factions.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020">
What we have is a collection of arch-angels and demons without God or
Satan - a peculiar cosmology, one that must confuse new players, and one
that inevitably leads to contradictions in play. </font></blockquote><div><=
br>
Which suggests that their nature and origins need a little extra emphasis t=
o remove the &quot; suggests&quot; from &quot;<font color=3D"#000020">that =
they are mortals become
immortal&quot; -- and make it clear that the Archangles are not messengers =
of the divine, and nor the demons rebellious angels.</font><br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020">While [the PoL] consider magic too powerful for the hands =
of mortals,
they would not disdain its use appropriately channelled through their
followers.... However, they should be portrayed as the
&quot;good guys&quot; or at least the
&quot;trying-do-to-the-right-thing&quot; brigade. </font></blockquote><div>=
<br>
I agree, and also think the anti-magic stance needs careful toning in
order for the heavily magical Guild / PCs and the PoL to not end up as
natural enemies.&nbsp; Uneasy allies is OK, but make them enemies from the
point of view of PCs and they will never be seen as &quot;white hats&quot;.=
<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020">The POD are all villains in my book - of varying stripes, =
from the
outright nasty and/or bonkers, to the insidious evil which is Seir and
his ilk.</font></blockquote><div><br>
Yes, tend to agree.&nbsp; The charming and urbane ones have simply
discovered that you can catch more flies with honey as it were.&nbsp; Even
those that appear helpful and principled will still have an enourmous
sense of self interest and be working towards their own goals -- in
order to become demons in the first place these transformed mortals
have to have been both powerful and massively ego-centric.<br>
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><font c=
olor=3D"#000020"> Their followers vary from the outright evil to the plain
misguided. And they don't care if mortals use magic - as long as it
advances their cause. And that cause is not the happiness of mortals...
<br><br>
Speaking of Seir, if there *is* a public &quot;church&quot; of Seir in
Seagate I'd expect it to be burnt down at least as regularly as a certain
infamous tavern. A clandestine operation would be much more to Seir's
tastes I'm sure, and more likely to survive the mob.</font></blockquote><di=
v><br>
I don't see &quot;the mob&quot; having much against Seir, who is presumably=
 seen
by simple people as a minor deity of wealth and prosperity (and perhaps
gambling)... I don't see how this would be much different ot a cult of
Mercury.<br>
<br>
The PoL may wish to burn it down / shut it down, but unless they are
the official religion in the area (and my understanding is that the
Western Church has limited standing in Carzala) then they will be
asking the Duke to shut it down, and he is likely to be telling the
varous religious groups that he wants them to all play nicely and to
not cause trouble in town.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div>
</div></div><br>


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