To the people who want to burn down the temle of Sier, loot
the coffers and ravish the attendants.

Go ahead. Contact the GM irresponsable (That's me) and
arrange an adventure. But not before mid-January since I'm
kinda busy till then.

Just stand outside and scream 'won't somebody think of the
children' till then.

William


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Mike,
What Ben said, but not as clear.


Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Cosmo
Sent: Sunday, 27 November 2005 12:00 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries


I've read it as when you determine a Spec Grev has been accomplished you

roll for damage in the normal way and the number rolled on that dice is 
held over to be used on the Spec Grev table.  Another dice is rolled to 
provide the 10's and combined with original number thrown for the damage

as the 1's number.  Assassins however, may increase that original number

up to their Rank in Assassin in the appropriate situations.

I like it as it doesn't make the Assassin's Spec any more often than 
currently, but the Spec's they get will be much more nasty.

It would also void the perennial about whose Lesser Enchantment is 
applied to the roll.



ben


mhyoung wrote:

> Rewrite this bit or give an example as I dont have a clue what your
> talking about
>  
> Regards,
> Michael
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
>     *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz <mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
>     *Sent:* Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:49 PM
>     *Subject:* [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
>      
>     I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that
>     would make the spec grevs a little more integratable into other
>     rules. If we sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit means
>     a minor spec grev, and a high ones digit means a bad spec grev,
>     then we can do things like:
>      
>     * Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This
>     means max damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min damage comes
>     with a light spec grev.
>      
>     * Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their
>     rank (when from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for
>     an assassin.
>      
>


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Nice tweaks.

Is it worth adding a note to the Spec Grev and Backfire tables to the effect
that these are the default versions, and GMs may use different ones?

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Monday, 28 November 2005 08:03
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
> 
> 
> Mike,
> What Ben said, but not as clear.
> 
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On 
> Behalf Of
> Cosmo
> Sent: Sunday, 27 November 2005 12:00 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries
> 
> 
> I've read it as when you determine a Spec Grev has been 
> accomplished you
> 
> roll for damage in the normal way and the number rolled on 
> that dice is 
> held over to be used on the Spec Grev table.  Another dice is 
> rolled to 
> provide the 10's and combined with original number thrown for 
> the damage
> 
> as the 1's number.  Assassins however, may increase that 
> original number
> 
> up to their Rank in Assassin in the appropriate situations.
> 
> I like it as it doesn't make the Assassin's Spec any more often than 
> currently, but the Spec's they get will be much more nasty.
> 
> It would also void the perennial about whose Lesser Enchantment is 
> applied to the roll.
> 
> 
> 
> ben
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Nice tweaks.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Is it worth adding a note to the Spec Grev and =
Backfire tables to the effect that these are the default versions, and =
GMs may use different ones?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 28 November 2005 08:03</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous =
Injuries</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mike,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; What Ben said, but not as clear.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Andrew</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] =
On </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cosmo</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Sunday, 27 November 2005 12:00 =
p.m.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous =
Injuries</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I've read it as when you determine a Spec Grev =
has been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; accomplished you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; roll for damage in the normal way and the =
number rolled on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that dice is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; held over to be used on the Spec Grev =
table.&nbsp; Another dice is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rolled to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; provide the 10's and combined with original =
number thrown for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the damage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; as the 1's number.&nbsp; Assassins however, may =
increase that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; original number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; up to their Rank in Assassin in the appropriate =
situations.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I like it as it doesn't make the Assassin's =
Spec any more often than </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; currently, but the Spec's they get will be much =
more nasty.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It would also void the perennial about whose =
Lesser Enchantment is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; applied to the roll.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ben</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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On Sun, 2005-11-27 at 09:47, Jacqui Smith wrote:
> It is a curious anomaly that not so long ago Starflower felt the necessity 
> to teach Phaeton the rudiments of the art - so that the Guild's number one 
> pacifist could use a sap to knock people out without killing them....

Yes, this is a weird consequence of the rules which I'd also noticed.
Anathea has been considering learning rank 0 assasin for exactly the
same reason, but didn't know of anyone reputable to learn from. If I
come back to Auckland, Phaeton might get a student.


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The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
experience.

Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
Other people who are tempted, don't.

If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.

Andrew


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The retaining the dmg dice roll as the "1's" role on d100 will mean you =
get a real double whammy effect whereby you either take low dmg and a =
(comparatively) mild grievous or high damage and a really nasty grievous =
(assuming the tens dies falls in the specified range). Having said that =
in the higher end games the d10 damage roll ceases to be the major =
component of the damage taken ("oh damn, minimum damage, only 22").=20
=20
I think I prefer the totally seperate rolls to be honest, but it depends =
on what you are aiming for.  The new version will be more deadly. But I =
prefer the "mortal danger" to come from sustained and built up pressure =
(resulting from players choices and tactics, or perhaps bad decisions =
and poor tactics),  rather than 1 set of extreme dice. Guess thats why I =
dont like the resist or die spells.=20
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Saturday, 26 November 2005 9:50 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries


It's not broken, but I am a little bored of the current Spec Grev table.
=20
Is there any reason why we can't introduce our own tables, like people =
do for Backfires? Maybe people are doing this already, but I haven't =
heard of it.
=20
=20
I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would =
make the spec grevs a little more integratable into other rules. If we =
sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit means a minor spec grev, =
and a high ones digit means a bad spec grev, then we can do things like:
=20
* Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means max =
damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light spec =
grev.
=20
* Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank =
(when from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.
=20
* Slide a spec grev up or down the severity scale when a PC is attacked =
by a rabbit or giant.
=20
Here is a very slightly modified spec grev table that would work with =
this idea. It also has recovery times and healer ranks for all injuries.
=20
It might be crazy (how would I tell?).
=20
Andrew


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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D183431420-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
retaining the dmg dice roll as the "1's" role on d100 will mean you get =
a real=20
double whammy effect whereby you either take low dmg and a =
(comparatively) mild=20
grievous or high damage and a really nasty grievous (assuming the tens =
dies=20
falls in the specified range). Having said that in the higher end games =
the d10=20
damage roll ceases to be the major component of the damage =
taken&nbsp;("oh damn,=20
minimum damage, only 22").&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D183431420-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D183431420-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
think I prefer the totally seperate rolls to be honest, but it depends =
on what=20
you are aiming for.&nbsp; The new version will be more deadly. But I =
prefer the=20
"mortal danger" to come from sustained and built up pressure (resulting =
from=20
players choices and tactics, or perhaps bad decisions and poor=20
tactics),&nbsp;&nbsp;rather than 1 set of extreme dice. Guess thats why =
I dont=20
like the resist or die spells. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D183431420-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D183431420-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, 26 November 2005 9:50 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> =

  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Specific Grievous=20
  Injuries<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's =
not broken,=20
  but I am a little bored of the current Spec Grev =
table.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is =
there any=20
  reason why we can't introduce our own tables, like people do for =
Backfires?=20
  Maybe people are doing this already, but I haven't heard of=20
  it.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've =
also been=20
  playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would make the spec =
grevs a=20
  little more integratable into other rules. If we sort the spec grevs =
such that=20
  a low ones digit means a minor spec grev, and a high ones digit means =
a bad=20
  spec grev, then we can do things like:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* =
Use the "D" in=20
  damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means max damage comes =
with a=20
  nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light spec =
grev.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* =
Give Assassins a=20
  minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank (when from surprise, =
etc).=20
  This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>* =
Slide a spec=20
  grev up or down the severity scale when a PC is attacked by a rabbit =
or=20
  giant.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Here =
is a very=20
  slightly modified spec grev table that would work with this idea. It =
also has=20
  recovery times&nbsp;and healer ranks for all =
injuries.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It might be =
crazy (how would=20
  I tell?).</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D102043808-26112005></SPAN></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D102043808-26112005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On the positive side, Assassins are tidy. Holes made by narrow blades
inserted longitudinally scatter blood far less than traditional 'white hat'
scimitars, long swords etc which are normally applied in a transverse
manner. And have you seen how long it takes for the bruising to go away
after a hammer blow?

Furthermore, assassins have actually studied their craft, rather than being
rank amateurs.

And they get to wear black. And have clean fingernails, and good table
manners.

Admittedly Isil Eth's little black dress at the last guild ball did distract
some worthies and led to some needless speculation that she had learnt some
'new' techniques... after all she is always willing to learn...

So go for it phaeton, trade in those drab browns and greens and get
fashionable black!

Ian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: 28 November 2005 09:26
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Assassins
> 
> The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
> peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
> character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
> answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
> Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
> experience.
> 
> Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
> Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
> Other people who are tempted, don't.
> 
> If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
> good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
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Good post Mark,

 

DQ feels like a 'critical' combat system, where a good roll (or one group of
three good rolls) determines the outcome of the combat.

 

First to roll good END damage (spec grev a bonus) tends to win. This has
little to do with finesse, style, skill or tactics. I doubt any (acceptable)
rule change will address this, but I am not sure a change that enhances this
flavour is a good thing.

 

I do like the new table structure, but I too would prefer the rolls to be
separated.

 

I did like the idea of tying the damage to the skill of the operator.
Perhaps the damage increase for skill should be revised?

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz
Sent: 28 November 2005 09:34
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries

 

The retaining the dmg dice roll as the "1's" role on d100 will mean you get
a real double whammy effect whereby you either take low dmg and a
(comparatively) mild grievous or high damage and a really nasty grievous
(assuming the tens dies falls in the specified range). Having said that in
the higher end games the d10 damage roll ceases to be the major component of
the damage taken ("oh damn, minimum damage, only 22"). 

 

I think I prefer the totally seperate rolls to be honest, but it depends on
what you are aiming for.  The new version will be more deadly. But I prefer
the "mortal danger" to come from sustained and built up pressure (resulting
from players choices and tactics, or perhaps bad decisions and poor
tactics),  rather than 1 set of extreme dice. Guess thats why I dont like
the resist or die spells. 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Saturday, 26 November 2005 9:50 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Specific Grievous Injuries

It's not broken, but I am a little bored of the current Spec Grev table.

 

Is there any reason why we can't introduce our own tables, like people do
for Backfires? Maybe people are doing this already, but I haven't heard of
it.

 

 

I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would make
the spec grevs a little more integratable into other rules. If we sort the
spec grevs such that a low ones digit means a minor spec grev, and a high
ones digit means a bad spec grev, then we can do things like:

 

* Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means max
damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light spec
grev.

 

* Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank (when
from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.

 

* Slide a spec grev up or down the severity scale when a PC is attacked by a
rabbit or giant.

 

Here is a very slightly modified spec grev table that would work with this
idea. It also has recovery times and healer ranks for all injuries.

 

It might be crazy (how would I tell?).

 

Andrew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Good post =
Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>DQ feels like a =
&#8216;critical&#8217;
combat system, where a good roll (or one group of three good rolls) =
determines
the outcome of the combat.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>First to roll good END damage (spec =
grev a
bonus) tends to win. This has little to do with finesse, style, skill or
tactics. I doubt any (acceptable) rule change will address this, but I =
am not
sure a change that enhances this flavour is a good =
thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I do like the new table structure, =
but I too
would prefer the rolls to be separated.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I did like the idea of tying the =
damage to
the skill of the operator. Perhaps the damage increase for skill should =
be
revised?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 28 November 2005 =
09:34<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Specific
Grievous Injuries</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The retaining the dmg dice roll as =
the
&quot;1's&quot; role on d100 will mean you get a real double whammy =
effect
whereby you either take low dmg and a (comparatively) mild grievous or =
high
damage and a really nasty grievous (assuming the tens dies falls in the
specified range). Having said that in the higher end games the d10 =
damage roll
ceases to be the major component of the damage taken&nbsp;(&quot;oh =
damn,
minimum damage, only 22&quot;).&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think I prefer the totally =
seperate
rolls to be honest, but it depends on what you are aiming for.&nbsp; The =
new
version will be more deadly. But I prefer the &quot;mortal danger&quot; =
to come
from sustained and built up pressure (resulting from players choices and
tactics, or perhaps bad decisions and poor tactics),&nbsp;&nbsp;rather =
than 1
set of extreme dice. Guess thats why I dont like the resist or die =
spells. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew Withy (DSL =
AK)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 26 =
November 2005
9:50 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] Specific =
Grievous
Injuries</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It's not broken, but I am a little bored of the =
current Spec
Grev table.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Is there any reason why we can't introduce our own =
tables,
like people do for Backfires? Maybe people are doing this already, but I
haven't heard of it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I've also been playing around with a couple of small =
tweaks
that would make the spec grevs a little more integratable into other =
rules. If
we sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit means a minor spec =
grev, and
a high ones digit means a bad spec grev, then we can do things =
like:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Use the &quot;D&quot; in damage as the ones die in =
the
spec grev. This means max damage comes with a nasty spec grev, min =
damage comes
with a light spec grev.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal =
to
their rank (when from surprise, etc). This gives better spec grevs for =
an
assassin.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>* Slide a spec grev up or down the severity scale =
when a PC
is attacked by a rabbit or giant.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Here is a very slightly modified spec grev table that =
would
work with this idea. It also has recovery times&nbsp;and healer ranks =
for all
injuries.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>It might be crazy (how would I =
tell?).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C5F401.6E67D3D0--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Yep! Same reason Jago picked it up -- life-aspected E&E elf (retired).  Much better to hit someone over the head than to stick something sharp in them.  Plus you also get to pick up "suspiciously sticky" weapons safely.  And avoid those nasty death-related headaches.  All that from only 8 weeks study.  Don't believe the propaganda from the others ...

Yes, assassins are paid to dress in black and be nasty ... as opposed to you average guild-member, perhaps?  Like hacking at someone automatically makes you a hero with anyone except clothing merchants?  Moreover, in our line of business [Adventuring], one sometimes makes a hasty decision in the overwhelming absence of reliable information or --for the average party-- wisdom.  It is easier to remedy a misjudged situation where someone important is merely unconscious.  Sword-related "errors in judgement" make it so much harder for the offended party to "get over it" -- what with the agony, embarrassment, and occasional deadness.

One must confess that the Princess is overselling our profession though. "Clean fingernails  and good table manners" can be learnt; but it is much better to have them as racial talents. 
 

> > It is a curious anomaly that not so long ago Starflower 
> felt the necessity 
> > to teach Phaeton the rudiments of the art - so that the 
> Guild's number one 
> > pacifist could use a sap to knock people out without 
> killing them....
> 
> Yes, this is a weird consequence of the rules which I'd also noticed.
> Anathea has been considering learning rank 0 assasin for exactly the
> same reason, but didn't know of anyone reputable to learn from. If I
> come back to Auckland, Phaeton might get a student.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Putting aside amusing in-character comments, as a GM I feel that
assassin is a choice reflecting a very strong part of a character's
personality. Other similar indications for me include Merchant
(money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
(socialable), Courtier (political).

To me, if your character strongly believes and presents traits, then
learning a skill with the opposite traits is wrong. Its deliberately not
being true to your character concept.

If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are independent
of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and I'd love to hear some
justification.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----


The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
experience.

Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
Other people who are tempted, don't.

If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.

Andrew


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I must admit that Glass has just picked up the A****** skill for two
primary reasons.

1) A core interest of his is new things and so it's something new to
try. As well as another string to the bow of options in most
circumstances.

2) If you're going to be in a situation where such skills are likely
to be used against you, having more than apassing familiarity with
them should assist you in avoiding / ameliorating their impact. This
is one reason that With the change to Spy and Thief, Glass will also
shortyly be picking up that anti-Merchant skill (and he probabyl
should pick up Merchant too) :)

TTFN, Struan.

On 11/28/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
> Putting aside amusing in-character comments, as a GM I feel that
> assassin is a choice reflecting a very strong part of a character's
> personality. Other similar indications for me include Merchant
> (money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
> (socialable), Courtier (political).
>
> To me, if your character strongly believes and presents traits, then
> learning a skill with the opposite traits is wrong. Its deliberately not
> being true to your character concept.
>
> If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are independent
> of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and I'd love to hear some
> justification.
>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
> peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
> character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
> answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
> Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
> experience.
>
> Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
> Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
> Other people who are tempted, don't.
>
> If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
> good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> To me, if your character strongly believes and presents 
> traits, then learning a skill with the opposite traits is 
> wrong. Its deliberately not being true to your character concept.
> 
> If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are 
> independent of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and 
> I'd love to hear some justification.

I take a middle road. For some characters the skills are a reflection of
the personality but others it is simply a skillset they require to do a
job. 

DQ doesn't really allow anyone to pick up bits of a skill so if a
mercenary gets Healer at 0 to empathy comrades or someone gets assasin
to 0 to sap someone it is ok. Once someone has a skill ranked to 3 or 4
I think it should be part of the character and not just a picked up
skill. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I agree, the 'skills' in DQ are professions. If you have ranks in say, Thief
then you are a thief with the mindset that implies.

Same with Assassian, your character IS an assassian. But there are many
kinds of assassians in reality and fiction (just as there are many thieves).

A thuggee who enforces the will of the goddess Shiva is as much an assassian
as James Bond, who kills people Her Majesty disaproves of.
So are the Hassim (sp) of arabic myth, Ninja of Nippon and the dreaded Men
in Black. Anhk-Morpork's gentleman's club of Assassains also comes to mind.

Taking the skill for the sapping benefit is cheesy. Stop it.

William
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 25/11/2005


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Further to Andrew's comments,  

Many skills/professions are ambiguous.  Indeed it is amusing to have divergent, but separately sustainable, views held by one's two (or whatever) current characters -- e.g. SF is a Courtier; Hagen is a gigolo.    This diversity is good for the game, stopping the generic, simplistic "Level-6 Ranger" or" Level-5 priest" categorisation of a character (PC or NPC).   

However it IS important to have one or two professions that are just too far beyond the pale to be admitted to in polite, or even somewhat course, society.  If it truly become necessary for a person to employ one, they *should* go about wearing masks, so that one can pretend not to recognise them.   Depsite previous comments I'm keen that Asparagus remains such a profession.

Likewise, in character, Haagan is also life-aspected & will willingly confess to being a spy, but no way he'd want to be anything as scary as an "A-double-S, A-double-S ..."
Helpful hint from Haagan: rather than learning something evil & incriminating just so that you can knock someone out by doing 1 point effective damage with a sap; just hit the bugger over the head & overstrength the blow (by at least 5 or 6 points) -- that way you're sure to do the necessary 4 or more point of effective damage for a non-murder to knock out their target.

Now for the "That being said, ..." part of the response.
The DQ system typically does NOT allow a character to learn useful techniques outside thoe professions the techniques belong to.  And certainly there is the demand for such out-of-profession proficiencies.  A player can only drop heavy hints to an obliging GM for suitable treasure &/or one-off special skills.  Similarly, as a GM (who is obliging only by accident), I often write-up magic items with such an extra skill-ette or talent because it is more fun & interesting -- and useful (especially if the NPCs have used the item on the party first).  

Fortunately guild characters with such o-o-p proficiencies are normally mid-level or higher.  If Isil Eth wants to destroy you, she is most unlikely to assassinate you -- she'll probably just rend your psyche with her magic, or annihilate your social existence with her Courtier skill.

> Putting aside amusing in-character comments, as a GM I feel that
> assassin is a choice reflecting a very strong part of a character's
> personality. Other similar indications for me include Merchant
> (money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
> (socialable), Courtier (political).
> 
> To me, if your character strongly believes and presents traits, then
> learning a skill with the opposite traits is wrong. Its 
> deliberately not
> being true to your character concept.
> 
> If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are independent
> of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and I'd love to 
> hear some
> justification.
> 
> Andrew>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

At 11:37 28/11/05, you wrote:
>Taking the skill for the sapping benefit is cheesy. Stop it.

Yes, it may well be cheesy - but I described it a "curious anomaly" for 
good reason. It feels incongruous to teach a pacifist a deadly skill in 
order to give that character a more effective way of taking out the 
opposition without killing... but there is no alternative in the DQ system.

The reality is that characters rarely choose to learn the assassin skill 
because they want to BE an assassin, or because they are interested in 
learning torture or any of that stuff - the torture rules are just badly 
designed, and there are much less painful (and more pleasurable) ways to 
get information out of people.

They want to be able to handle poisons safely (which should be covered in 
both Alchemist and Herbalist IMO) and they want to be able to sap people 
and knock them out. Now, if this was D&D the latter could be easily covered 
with a feat. But it isn't - and I don't see any obvious way to fix this 
anomaly.

Jacqui


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On 11/28/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Other similar indications for me include Merchant
> (money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
> (socialable), Courtier (political).


So it's not OK just to simply learn low Rk Healer to prevent comrades (or
indeed yourself) bleeding to death, you have to either already be selfless,
or get the selfless personality trait as part of the package?

Can one not be a psychotic and asocial flute player?  A fastidiously dresse=
d
snob who disdains politics? A philanthropic rare book collector? An
"adventuring" thief who thinks pickpocketing is morally wrong?

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On 11/28/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:=
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">
Other similar indications for me include Merchant<br>(money-grasping rather=
 than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour<br>(socialable), Courtier (pol=
itical).</blockquote><div><br>So it's not OK just to simply learn low Rk He=
aler to prevent comrades (or indeed yourself) bleeding to death, you have t=
o either already be selfless, or get the selfless personality trait as part=
 of the package?
<br><br>Can one not be a psychotic and asocial flute player?&nbsp; A fastid=
iously dressed snob who disdains politics? A philanthropic rare book collec=
tor? An &quot;adventuring&quot; thief who thinks pickpocketing is morally w=
rong?
<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_5613_27090117.1133132161403--


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Jacqui,
You can knock people out currently. Assassins are just better at it. You
don't need the skill. C.f. Warrior and combat.

Poisons. Why would you want to use poisons (which is all the assassin
skill gives you) unless you wanted to poison someone?

Anyone who learns the assassin skill who isn't interested in
assassination (or drug-based dating) should re-think their purchase of
this skill. DQ's Profession system is not about collecting useful
"skill-ettes". Its about learning a Profession.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jacqui Smith
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2005 12:01 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Assassins


At 11:37 28/11/05, you wrote:
>Taking the skill for the sapping benefit is cheesy. Stop it.

Yes, it may well be cheesy - but I described it a "curious anomaly" for 
good reason. It feels incongruous to teach a pacifist a deadly skill in 
order to give that character a more effective way of taking out the 
opposition without killing... but there is no alternative in the DQ
system.

The reality is that characters rarely choose to learn the assassin skill

because they want to BE an assassin, or because they are interested in 
learning torture or any of that stuff - the torture rules are just badly

designed, and there are much less painful (and more pleasurable) ways to

get information out of people.

They want to be able to handle poisons safely (which should be covered
in 
both Alchemist and Herbalist IMO) and they want to be able to sap people

and knock them out. Now, if this was D&D the latter could be easily
covered 
with a feat. But it isn't - and I don't see any obvious way to fix this 
anomaly.

Jacqui


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> The reality is that characters rarely choose to learn the 
> assassin skill because they want to BE an assassin, or because
> they are interested in learning torture or any of that stuff 

We what now??

My assassin definatly wanted to be an assassin. Most of the other
assassins I know are either assassins because they want to or because
they started on the slippery slope of thief and spy and slid further
down :0)

I would actually say that most assassins want to be assassins and ignore
that the skill is a meaningless pile of junk. In fact I suspect this is
the reason that people are looking to rewrite the skill. 

Mandos
/s


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Generally not.
=20
Truely selfish people won't learn Healer (except for self healing - they
won't spread it around).
Dandys, fops and similar are usually mad social-politics players - even
if they avoid government or responsibility.
Troubadour is an entertainment skill. You get a lot more than a single
instrument from it even if you specialise. You get to be an entertainer.
And I think the "adventuring" thief is a D&Dism that should be crushed
mercilessly. Become a mechanician.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Martin Dickson
	Sent: Monday, 28 November 2005 11:56 a.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Assassins
=09
=09
	On 11/28/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
wrote:=20
=09

		Other similar indications for me include Merchant
		(money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless),
Troubadour
		(socialable), Courtier (political).


	So it's not OK just to simply learn low Rk Healer to prevent
comrades (or indeed yourself) bleeding to death, you have to either
already be selfless, or get the selfless personality trait as part of
the package?=20
=09
	Can one not be a psychotic and asocial flute player?  A
fastidiously dressed snob who disdains politics? A philanthropic rare
book collector? An "adventuring" thief who thinks pickpocketing is
morally wrong?=20
=09



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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Generally not.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Truely=20
selfish people won't learn Healer (except for self healing - they won't =
spread=20
it around).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Dandys, fops&nbsp;and similar are usually mad social-politics =
players -=20
even if they avoid government or responsibility.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Troubadour is an entertainment skill. You get a lot more than a =
single=20
instrument from it even if you specialise. You get to be an=20
entertainer.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>And I think the "adventuring" thief is a =

D&amp;Dism that should be crushed mercilessly. Become a=20
mechanician.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D608010023-27112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Martin Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 28 November 2005 11:56=20
  a.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
  Assassins<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 11/28/05, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername>Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>&gt; =
wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Other=20
    similar indications for me include Merchant<BR>(money-grasping =
rather than=20
    heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour<BR>(socialable), Courtier=20
  (political).</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>So it's not OK just to simply learn low Rk Healer to prevent =
comrades=20
  (or indeed yourself) bleeding to death, you have to either already be=20
  selfless, or get the selfless personality trait as part of the =
package?=20
  <BR><BR>Can one not be a psychotic and asocial flute player?&nbsp; A=20
  fastidiously dressed snob who disdains politics? A philanthropic rare =
book=20
  collector? An "adventuring" thief who thinks pickpocketing is morally =
wrong?=20
  <BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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who said they learnt them at 'sunday school'? merely that there is a corelation between those with such talents and those that learn the artful application of shish to the unaware kebab.

> One must confess that the Princess is overselling our profession though. "Clean fingernails  and good table manners" can be learnt; but it is much better to have them as racial talents.
> 
> 
> > > It is a curious anomaly that not so long ago Starflower
> > felt the necessity
> > > to teach Phaeton the rudiments of the art - so that the
> > Guild's number one
> > > pacifist could use a sap to knock people out without
> > killing them....
> >
> > Yes, this is a weird consequence of the rules which I'd also noticed.
> > Anathea has been considering learning rank 0 assasin for exactly the
> > same reason, but didn't know of anyone reputable to learn from. If I
> > come back to Auckland, Phaeton might get a student.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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On 11/28/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
> DQ's Profession system is not about collecting useful
> "skill-ettes". Its about learning a Profession.


Disagree. DQ has a skill system. Many of the skills are quite broad, but ar=
e
not in and of themselves professions.

A Tavern Keeper may well have Merchant skill, but might also require one or
more Artisan skills (brewer, cook, etc), and perhaps a rank or two in
Troubadour (story telling) or Courtier (flattery)  -- depending on their
establishment's clientle -- to round out their CV.

By the same token a professional assassin for hire is going to need rather
more than just that single skill in order to pursue their chosen profession=
.

That said, learning assassin skill just for sap feels anomolous.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 11/28/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:=
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">
DQ's Profession system is not about collecting useful<br>&quot;skill-ettes&=
quot;. Its about learning a Profession.</blockquote><div><br>Disagree. DQ h=
as a skill system. Many of the skills are quite broad, but are not in and o=
f themselves professions.
<br><br>A Tavern Keeper may well have Merchant skill, but might also requir=
e one or more Artisan skills (brewer, cook, etc), and perhaps a rank or two=
 in Troubadour (story telling) or Courtier (flattery)&nbsp; -- depending on=
 their establishment's clientle -- to round out their CV.
<br><br>By the same token a professional assassin for hire is going to need=
 rather more than just that single skill in order to pursue their chosen pr=
ofession.<br><br>That said, learning assassin skill just for sap feels anom=
olous.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_5789_15830991.1133133011526--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

we had this discussion several years ago. i suggested that in a roleplaying competition, there would be clear association between characterisation and skills.

And from that suggested that DQ skills should reflect the character. this was hotly debunked, as not DQ.

Skills are (apparently) merely enablers. they enable a character to use skills as an expression of that character. Not the other way around.

Sorry Andrew, i agree with you, but most Gods apparently do not. They may award more EP for those that follow your philisophy, but do not make it a requirement. (Isil Eth should have spy, but i could never accept that she would spy on people.) On humans may be.




> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2005/11/28 Mon AM 10:50:23 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Assassins
> 
> Putting aside amusing in-character comments, as a GM I feel that
> assassin is a choice reflecting a very strong part of a character's
> personality. Other similar indications for me include Merchant
> (money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
> (socialable), Courtier (political).
> 
> To me, if your character strongly believes and presents traits, then
> learning a skill with the opposite traits is wrong. Its deliberately not
> being true to your character concept.
> 
> If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are independent
> of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and I'd love to hear some
> justification.
> 
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> 
> The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
> peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
> character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
> answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
> Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
> experience.
> 
> Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
> Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
> Other people who are tempted, don't.
> 
> If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
> good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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On 11/28/05, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Truely selfish people won't learn Healer (except for self healing - they
> won't spread it around).
>

But in order to learn healing at all they must be selfless, right?  So, the=
y
will spread it around. :-)  Or, you could agree that learning (low rank)
Healer says little if anything about the personality of the student.  High
rank Healer is generally a different case.

Dandys, fops and similar are usually mad social-politics players - even if
> they avoid government or responsibility.
>

Which still suggests a wide range of personality types, even if they have
the same skill... and doesn't touch on the adventurer from the serf
background who learn the skill so he'd know which knife goes with the fish.
'Course if the ex-serf takes Courtier to high ranks, then yes, it'll
probably indicate that they are most likely political to some degree.

Troubadour is an entertainment skill. You get a lot more than a single
> instrument from it even if you specialise. You get to be an entertainer.
>

Fine, so the mad flutist can also orate spontaneous haiku after slaying
people who dis his flute playing -- it doesn't make him social.

And I think the "adventuring" thief is a D&Dism that should be crushed
> mercilessly. Become a mechanician.
>

Oh that'll work well...  :-)

GM: You come to a locked door.
Party Leader: Bring up the Mechanician.
Mech: Oh, lovely, that's a Wilkins and Burlingham 7-tumbler double deadbolt=
.
Must have cost a pretty penny... oh, and it's got the integral alarm trip
switch... didn't realise they had those on the 7000 series....
Party Leader: Well, can you open it?
Mech: Open it? What do you mean open it?  I can build you one similar to it
if you'd like... But opening it... no, no, for that you'd want a Thief.

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On 11/28/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:=
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
x; padding-left: 1ex;">






<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font></span>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Truely=20
selfish people won't learn Healer (except for self healing - they won't spr=
ead=20
it around).</font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>But in order to learn =
healing at all they must be selfless, right?&nbsp; So, they will spread it =
around. :-)&nbsp; Or, you could agree that learning (low rank) Healer says =
little if anything about the personality of the student.&nbsp; High rank He=
aler is generally a different case.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><di=
v><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Dandys, fops&nbsp=
;and similar are usually mad social-politics players -=20
even if they avoid government or responsibility.</font></span></div></block=
quote><div><br>Which still suggests a wide range of personality types, even=
 if they have the same skill... and doesn't touch on the adventurer from th=
e serf background who learn the skill so he'd know which knife goes with th=
e fish. 'Course if the ex-serf takes Courtier to high ranks, then yes, it'l=
l probably indicate that they are most likely political to some degree.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><di=
v><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><div><span><font =
color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">
Troubadour is an entertainment skill. You get a lot more than a single=20
instrument from it even if you specialise. You get to be an=20
entertainer.</font></span></div></font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>F=
ine, so the mad flutist can also orate spontaneous haiku after slaying peop=
le who dis his flute playing -- it doesn't make him social.<br></div><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><span><font =
color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">And I think the &quot;adventuri=
ng&quot; thief is a=20
D&amp;Dism that should be crushed mercilessly. Become a=20
mechanician.</font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>Oh that'll work well.=
..&nbsp; :-)<br><br>GM: You come to a locked door.<br>Party Leader: Bring u=
p the Mechanician.<br>Mech: Oh, lovely, that's a Wilkins and Burlingham 7-t=
umbler double deadbolt. Must have cost a pretty penny... oh, and it's got t=
he integral alarm trip switch... didn't realise they had those on the 7000 =
series....
<br>Party Leader: Well, can you open it?<br>Mech: Open it? What do you mean=
 open it?&nbsp; I can build you one similar to it if you'd like... But open=
ing it... no, no, for that you'd want a Thief.<br></div></div><br>

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I would fall somewhere between the two extremes. Certain skills, and mastery of other skills is definitely more than just an "enabler". But this stuff about being "selfless" if you take healer or "dishonest" if you take thief is going too far the other way. 

To me it depends on the skill and the level to which you take the skill as to whether the skill forms a vital part of a pc's "character" or is merely something they can do that have learnt (and as the pc elect to spend more and more time training and using the skill it progresses from the later to the former imho). Let people use their characters skillset to enrich their roleplaying of that character. Don't seek to use a characters skillset to straightjacket them into sterotypes (ala D&D alignments and character classes).

Really this whole debate started over someone learning assassin in order to sap. Its really just an artifial constraint of the rules. Theres no "real life" reasons why somoene couldnt choose to learn how to knock people out as well as a rank 8 assassin, without having to learn all about poisons, sneaking about and where to stick the pointy end of daggers to cause maximum chance of of fatality. 



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2005 12:19 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] skills reflecting character: was Assassin



we had this discussion several years ago. i suggested that in a roleplaying competition, there would be clear association between characterisation and skills.

And from that suggested that DQ skills should reflect the character. this was hotly debunked, as not DQ.

Skills are (apparently) merely enablers. they enable a character to use skills as an expression of that character. Not the other way around.

Sorry Andrew, i agree with you, but most Gods apparently do not. They may award more EP for those that follow your philisophy, but do not make it a requirement. (Isil Eth should have spy, but i could never accept that she would spy on people.) On humans may be.




> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2005/11/28 Mon AM 10:50:23 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Assassins
> 
> Putting aside amusing in-character comments, as a GM I feel that
> assassin is a choice reflecting a very strong part of a character's
> personality. Other similar indications for me include Merchant
> (money-grasping rather than heroic), Healer (selfless), Troubadour
> (socialable), Courtier (political).
> 
> To me, if your character strongly believes and presents traits, then
> learning a skill with the opposite traits is wrong. Its deliberately not
> being true to your character concept.
> 
> If other GMs think "its just a skill", and "all skills are independent
> of your character's beliefs", lets hear that, and I'd love to hear some
> justification.
> 
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> 
> The idea that learning assassin is a "good" thing so people can
> peacfully take prisoners is wrong. Assassin is a stain on the aura of a
> character. Taking assassin is a statement that violence and evil are the
> answer to problems. You learn torture and poison use as part of Rank 0
> Assassin. You don't get to "skip" bits - you have this knowledge and
> experience.
> 
> Phaeton, get this skill removed by your next GM.
> Anathea, don't turn to the dark side.
> Other people who are tempted, don't.
> 
> If you want to knock people out, you can learn sap, you just won't be as
> good at kidnapping and thuggery as an assassin.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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On 11/28/05, dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Skills are (apparently) merely enablers. they enable a character to use
> skills as an expression of that character. Not the other way around.



I will agree that some of the DQ skills appear less morally neutral than
others.

Navigator, for example, suggests nothing of the character -- other than
presumably an interest in ships.  It doesn't imply that the possessor is a
starry-eyed idealist, or a gold hungry conquistador, or a psychotic pirate,
or even obsessed with a great white whale.  It just shows skill in ship
handling.  A Mechanician could be the kindly toymaker, or Dr. Doom with his
clockwork robots. An Alchemist could be making healing potions or poison,
and many of the DQ skills are of this nature.

Some however have, or appear to have, a moral dimension, more pronounced in
some cases than others.

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On 11/28/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra=
.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.c=
o.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
/span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>Skills are (a=
pparently) merely enablers. they enable a character to use skills as an exp=
ression of that character. Not the other way around.
</blockquote><div><br><br></div>I will agree that some of the DQ skills app=
ear less morally neutral than others.<br><div><br>Navigator, for example, s=
uggests nothing of the character -- other than presumably an interest in sh=
ips.&nbsp; It doesn't imply that the possessor is a starry-eyed idealist, o=
r a gold hungry conquistador, or a psychotic pirate, or even obsessed with =
a great white whale.&nbsp; It just shows skill in ship handling.&nbsp; A Me=
chanician could be the kindly toymaker, or Dr. Doom with his clockwork robo=
ts. An Alchemist could be making healing potions or poison, and many of the=
 DQ skills are of this nature.
<br><br>Some however have, or appear to have, a moral dimension, more prono=
unced in some cases than others.<br></div><br></div><br>

------=_Part_6117_22457527.1133135375073--


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> To me it depends on the skill and the level to which you take 
> the skill as to whether the skill forms a vital part of a 
> pc's "character" or is merely something they can do that have 
> learnt (and as the pc elect to spend more and more time 
> training and using the skill it progresses from the later to 
> the former imho). Let people use their characters skillset to 
> enrich their roleplaying of that character. Don't seek to use 
> a characters skillset to straightjacket them into sterotypes 
> (ala D&D alignments and character classes).

As much as it pains me I have to agree completely with Mark on this.

As a side note this whole thing started over people wanting assasin to
be able to knock people out. Given the new sap rules in playtest is this
likely to even be an issue any more?

Mandos
/s


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real ending at teh bottom...

> GM: You come to a locked door.
> Party Leader: Bring up the Mechanician.
> Mech: Oh, lovely, that's a Wilkins and Burlingham 7-tumbler double deadbolt.
> Must have cost a pretty penny... oh, and it's got the integral alarm trip
> switch... didn't realise they had those on the 7000 series....
> Party Leader: Well, can you open it?

Mech: Open it? well if you insist, jsut let me finish putting it back together again, and sure. say another 4 hours to reassemble, and 6 to open it? hmm, that would be about midnight?

Ian
>


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I think I have to agree with Mark on this too, part of the flexability and
longevity of the DQ system is its lack of Character classess or straight
jacket sterotypes.

If my character gets healer to be able to revive and strenghten her torture
victims, or cure herself of the poision she just put in everyones drink
where is the selflessness in that.

Warriors loose their bonuses if the opposition can't fight back, but in a
covert op like the Trogan Horse you don't want some one fighting back,
raising the alarm, the men in that horse would have been Warriors with
assassin skills. Their equaivalent of our special forces.

Rangers can survive in the wilderness in general and find there way from a
to b, why do any of us ever get ranks higher than 0. To do it better,
quicker, more effeiantly. If Keith feels that Pheaton  should have the
basics of Assassin just to be better at knocking people out with less risk
to himself, the party and the Poor sod who is sapped what differance is that
to his getting more ranger so just to have a better chance of spoting an
ambush.

Poisions well not all poisions are faltal, some make you sick, some make you
so sick your disabled, want to disable the guards without killing them
Pheatons more likely to know, maybe even have some of those types of
poisions.
Torture, Ive GMed Pheaton, while others have done such bad things to
entities in his presence, (forget that the DQ system for such is screwy)
would Pheaton do so himself if the information to be got will save lives and
there was no one else to do it? Only Keith can answer that.

We end up with oddities like the Sap rule and with PCs having high ranks in
some skills just to get the right set of subskills.
However recent changes in the rules and as Mandos says the knockout rules in
play test, may address these anomalies some what.

Helen


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bring on the new assassin's skill.

in answer to one of Andrew's points, i do not see why poison has to be fatal. see below:

Assassins are known and feared for killing thsoe people who normally consider themselves safe from such a normal death (30% of deaths in towns were manslaughter - take the 's' off 'slaughter' and you get entertainment!)
But in our sophisticated and enlightened times, the threat of death is often enough. And a demonstration that next time could be painless (or very painful) is a good way to extract compliance from someone. Hence the non-killing blow, the non-fatal toxin, etc. not sure where this leads apart from a re-examination of Rank 0 benefits for skills...


__Toxic but not fatal:__

Well ok poisons perhaps, but not toxins.

We could increase the range of effects. Most natural toxins are not directly deadly. Neuro toxins relax the muscles, and can induce a nice sleeping sensation (helped no doubt by the gentle rocking as you are eased down the throat of the injector). Others rot the flesh, and some shut down the respiratory system.


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feels like the transition is at about journeyman (rank 4-ish) which is about when it becomes a 'profession'. 

Ian
> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2005/11/28 Mon PM 01:16:16 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] skills reflecting character: was Assassin
> 
> > To me it depends on the skill and the level to which you take
> > the skill as to whether the skill forms a vital part of a
> > pc's "character" or is merely something they can do that have
> > learnt (and as the pc elect to spend more and more time
> > training and using the skill it progresses from the later to
> > the former imho). Let people use their characters skillset to
> > enrich their roleplaying of that character. Don't seek to use
> > a characters skillset to straightjacket them into sterotypes
> > (ala D&D alignments and character classes).
> 
> As much as it pains me I have to agree completely with Mark on this.
> 
> As a side note this whole thing started over people wanting assasin to
> be able to knock people out. Given the new sap rules in playtest is this
> likely to even be an issue any more?
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
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>


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Andrew said:
Assassin is a stain on the aura of a character.

This is only partly true.
If the skill is your highest ranked skill it is staining you arua, otherwise
its not.
In the new DA only the highest rank skill is a stain, so if Phaeton has the
skill lowly ranked with other skills ranked higher then its a mark on your
soul maybe but not a clear mark or stain on your arua, that others are able
to detect.

Having said that; I do not think of skills as just simple the skill alone,
but also as you increase in rank is a more 'total view' or outlook which
includes some life style choices also. If you are a rank 7 navigator you
live and breath it. I think it is wrong/incorrect to think of the skills as
just a set of knowledge but instead you need to consider them in referance
to your character, and your background.

On a note of Assassians;
James Bond is clearly an assassian. Assassain characters should kill less
people that the normal guild party who normaly beats there way in and out of
somewhere. But I also think Andrew is correct - if you want to play a
pacifist and just knock people out then sap.


Jono


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Haven't gone through them all but on a quick scan it seems good.

Custom Spec Grev tables seem fine in principle, caution needs to be applied in maintaining balance
close to that of the default tables and allowance for those with write-ups referring to specific
Spec Grev results.

I too would prefer seperate rolls for damage and spec grev result, I know it's more dice rolling
but it reduces the impact of one lucky (or unlucky) roll.

Rather than Assassins getting a minimum on the 1s, how about they get a choice, roll both dice, or
roll the 10s and choose a number up to your Rk for the 1s.
E.g. Rk 6 Ass. gets a spec grev, wants to choose, rolls 5 (fifty-something) on the 10s die and has
a choice of crippling the leg (1-5) or a slash and bleeder (6).
Low rank Ass. will probably just roll, masters get a lot more choice in the injuries they inflict.

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> It's not broken, but I am a little bored of the current Spec Grev table.
>
> Is there any reason why we can't introduce our own tables, like people do for Backfires? Maybe
> people are doing this already, but I haven't heard of it.
>
>
> I've also been playing around with a couple of small tweaks that would make the spec grevs a
> little more integratable into other rules. If we sort the spec grevs such that a low ones digit
> means a minor spec grev, and a high ones digit means a bad spec grev, then we can do things
> like:
>
> * Use the "D" in damage as the ones die in the spec grev. This means max damage comes with a
> nasty spec grev, min damage comes with a light spec grev.
>
> * Give Assassins a minimum spec grev ones digit equal to their rank (when from surprise, etc).
> This gives better spec grevs for an assassin.
>
> * Slide a spec grev up or down the severity scale when a PC is attacked by a rabbit or giant.
>
> Here is a very slightly modified spec grev table that would work with this idea. It also has
> recovery times and healer ranks for all injuries.
>
> It might be crazy (how would I tell?).
>
> Andrew


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