Messages for 30 November 2005

Subject	Re: [dq] Demons and Angels
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:22:38 +1300
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F522.A423702A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 21:39 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels On 11/29/05, Jacqui Smith < flamis@ihug.co.nz <mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz> > wrote: Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities encouraged... Yes, not sure what the nature of Seir's place is, perhaps more the gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has that covered. :-) We don't cover it! Look at this pamphlet.... Darien ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F522.A423702A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 29 November 2005 21:39<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Demons and Angels<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 11/29/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Jacqui Smith</B> <<A href="mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz">flamis@ihug.co.nz</A>> wrote: <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><SPAN class=q><BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR> </DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><SPAN class=q></SPAN><SPAN class=q></SPAN>Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities encouraged... </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Yes, not sure what the nature of  Seir's place is, perhaps more the gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has that covered. :-)<BR></DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR><SPAN class=587222020-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN class=587222020-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>We don't cover it! Look at this pamphlet....</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=587222020-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=587222020-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Darien</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F522.A423702A-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Demons and Angels
From	Michael Parkinson
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:28:55 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F523.84C6D4A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no difficulty with similar words from the same root; nobody would = argue that LEGAL & LOYAL are the same thing. Likewise, Martin as Gm had the Terranovan Drow DA Alusian Elves of = various sorts & get almost the same GTN (the equivalent of DRAU or DROWE = rather than DROW). However, in conversation, it was clear that Elves = --or "the abomination" to use their exact Drow term-- were considered = race-traitors & philosphically separated from Drowist ways by an = unbridgeable chasm. Similarly, I like the concept that D & A are from = the same root stock -- but they have evolved culturally & irrevocably. = However, I would prefer that the Powers of Light (perhaps through = self-sacrifice or some other smug, higher path) are MORE powereful = one-on-one than their demonic counterparts ... to make the 5 versus = 81-ish a bit more balanced. =20 (sorry if this is a duplicate post -- last meassage disappeared partway = through) -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of = Jacqui Smith Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 5:15 p.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Demons and Angels At 23:32 27/11/05, you wrote: Without disputing that Daimon is a perfectly good term for these beings, = the word itself is simply the Greek from which both Demon and Daemon are = derived, and is not different in meaning. Although they may have same root, it is the term "demon" that has = acquired all the "horns and forked-tail" associations - and those we = really need to get away from, especially in the case of POL. Mind you = "daimon" was the original Greek word used by the writers of the New = Testament - rather inaccurately since in no way can one equate the = Hebrew concept of "fallen angels" with the Greek "defied hero".=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F523.84C6D4A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D583381620-29112005>I = have no=20 difficulty with similar words from the same root; nobody would argue = that LEGAL=20 & LOYAL are the same thing.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D583381620-29112005>Likewise, Martin=20 as Gm had the Terranovan Drow DA Alusian Elves of various sorts & = get almost=20 the same GTN (the equivalent of DRAU or DROWE rather than DROW).  = However,=20 in conversation, it was clear that Elves  --or "the abomination" to = use=20 their exact Drow term--  were considered race-traitors=20 & philosphically separated from Drowist ways by an unbridgeable = chasm.  Similarly, I like the concept that D & A are from the = same root=20 stock -- but they have evolved culturally & = irrevocably.   =20 However, I would prefer that the Powers of Light (perhaps through=20 self-sacrifice or some other smug, higher path) are MORE powereful = one-on-one=20 than their demonic counterparts ... to make the 5 versus 81-ish a bit = more=20 balanced.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D583381620-29112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D583381620-29112005>(sorry if this is=20 a duplicate post -- last meassage disappeared partway=20 through)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> = dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20 [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jacqui = Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20 Tuesday, 29 November 2005 5:15 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20 dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Demons and=20 Angels<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>At 23:32 27/11/05, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dcite cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">Without disputing = that Daimon is=20 a perfectly good term for these beings, the word itself is simply = the Greek=20 from which both Demon and Daemon are derived, and is not different = in=20 meaning.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Although they may have same root, it is the = term=20 "demon" that has acquired all the "horns and forked-tail" associations = - and=20 those we really need to get away from, especially in the case of POL. = Mind you=20 "daimon" was the original Greek word used by the writers of the New = Testament=20 - rather inaccurately since in no way can one equate the Hebrew = concept of=20 "fallen angels" with the Greek "defied hero". = <BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F523.84C6D4A0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Jacqui Smith
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:37:09 +1300
--=====================_78832564==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 21:39 29/11/05, you wrote: >The generic term "power" is rather better although rather lacking in flavour. > >We could use "Archon" for the POL - it does convey an impression of >importance, and lawfulness, without any specific religious baggage. The >term "Daimon" then works nicely for the POD. > >Archon is quite nice (even with its "StarCraft" connection). The term >Elohim has also been used for the PoL. I think I'd rather not use "Elohim" - for those who know their theology, "Elohim" is one of the Hebrew words used for God in the Old Testament, notably in the first chapter of Genesis, and is thus too associated with certain monotheistic faiths. Let's avoid annoying any Jews we might have in our midst. Archon does not have those associations, and like Daimon, comes from the Greek. It is close enough to "Archangel" in sound if not in root, is easy to say, and inoffensive. It's in the dictionary and the history books so they can't copywrite it. >Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, >would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line >or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy >house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities >encouraged... > >Yes, not sure what the nature of Seir's place is, perhaps more the >gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has >that covered. Whatever it is, I think it should be referred to as a "shrine". As far as I can deduce, the word "church" is purely Christian, derived from the Greek "of the lord". It seems to fair enough to use the word for shrines of the archons, but it's probably preferable to use the more neutral terms "shrine" and "temple" for places of worship of daimons or outer powers. (Church: Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Medieval Greek k [] rikon, from Late Greek k [] riakon (d [] ma), the Lord's (house), neuter of Greek k [] riakos, of the lord, from k [] rios, lord.) Which naturally brings to the subject of the outer powers - the other pantheons, many of whom have more than a toehold on Alusia. The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't be just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield. I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so that explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons? Jacqui --=====================_78832564==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" <html> <body> At 21:39 29/11/05, you wrote:<br> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">The generic term "power" is rather better although rather lacking in flavour. <br><br> We could use "Archon" for the POL - it does convey an impression of importance, and lawfulness, without any specific religious baggage. The term "Daimon" then works nicely for the POD. <br><br> Archon is quite nice (even with its "StarCraft" connection).  The term Elohim has also been used for the PoL.</blockquote><br> I think I'd rather not use "Elohim" - for those who know their theology, "Elohim" is one of the Hebrew words used for God in the Old Testament, notably in the first chapter of Genesis, and is thus too associated with certain monotheistic faiths. Let's avoid annoying any Jews we might have in our midst.<br><br> Archon does not have those associations, and like Daimon, comes from the Greek. It is close enough to "Archangel" in sound if not in root,  is easy to say, and inoffensive. It's in the dictionary and the history books so they can't copywrite it. <br><br> <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities encouraged... <br><br> Yes, not sure what the nature of  Seir's place is, perhaps more the gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has that covered. </blockquote><br> Whatever it is, I think it should be referred to as a "shrine".<br><br> As far as I can deduce, the word "church" is purely Christian, derived from the Greek "of the lord". It seems to fair enough to use the word for shrines of the archons, but it's probably preferable to use the more neutral terms "shrine" and "temple" for places of worship of daimons or outer powers. <br><br> (Church: Etymology: Middle English <font color="#000020"><i>chirche</i>, from Old English <i>cirice</i>, ultimately from Medieval Greek <i> k<img src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" alt="[]"> rikon</i>, from Late Greek <i> k<img src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" alt="[]"> riakon (d<img src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/omacr.gif" alt="[]"> ma)</i>, the Lord's (house), neuter of Greek <i> k<img src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" alt="[]"> riakos</i>, of the lord, from <i> k<img src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" alt="[]"> rios</i>, lord.)<br><br> Which naturally brings to the subject of the outer powers - the other pantheons, many of whom have more than a toehold on Alusia. The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't be just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield.<br><br> I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so  that explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons?<br><br> Jacqui <br><br> <br> </font> </body> </html> --=====================_78832564==.ALT-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:09:31 +1300
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.30D5F15E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Note that Stephen's comments below relate to buildings, not = organisations. 'Temple' is NOT a synonom for 'Church' (especially when capatalised). = If we want a new name for religious organisations/belief systems (and Jacqui = is right, 'Church' IRL seems to nearly always refer to Christian = instances) 'Temple' is a bad choice for the generic, and worse as a translation of specific instances. e.g. What we currently have in the Wiki (before I change it) is=20 17 Temple of The One Horned God - A garishly decorated building on Dedication Road in Old Seagate, next door to the Temple of Seir. = Services (emphasizing 'fertility') are held daily, often continuing well into = the night. Due to enthusiastic attempts to gain converts by the Temple followers, the immediate area is generally avoided by the prudish.=20 the instances of 'Church/church' having been changed to = 'Temple/temple'. While the previous wording was not perfect (and some allowance must be = made for the 'knowledge' available being imprecise), this is clearly wrong. = The Church of the One Horned God (c.f. Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter = Day Saints) is the dominant religon on it's home ground (off-plane), with followers also in other locations. There is a temple of the Church in Seagate. 'Temple followers' just doesn't work (until the schism anyway) = - note earlier version had "Church follower's enthusiastic attempts" Full formal name of the building is probably 'Temple of the Church of = The One Horned God', shorter version 'Temple [to\|of] The One Horned God', = common name 'Knob God temple'. tem=B7ple1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tmpl) n.=20 1 a. A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.=20 b. Temple Either of two successive buildings in ancient Jerusalem = serving as the primary center for Jewish worship.=20 c. Judaism. A synagogue, especially of a Reform congregation.=20 d. Mormon Church. A building in which the sacred ordinances are administered.=20 2. Something regarded as having within it a divine presence.=20 3. A building used for meetings by any of several fraternal orders, especially the Knights Templars.=20 4. A building reserved for a highly valued function: the library, a = temple of learning.=20 5. Temple Either of two groups of buildings in London, the Inner Temple = and the Middle Temple, that house two of the four Inns of Court and that = occupy the site of the medieval Knights Templars establishment. Cheers Errol > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen Martin [mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net] > Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 11:26 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: [dq] Terminology: Church =3D> Temple >=20 >=20 > As part of trying to separate the worshipers of PoLs, PoDs,=20 > etc. from our one-god religions I > would like to change the terminology for places of worship=20 > from Churches to Temples. >=20 > It may seem minor but I think the words have considerably=20 > different visual/emotional associations. >=20 > Church is strongly associated with long rectangular buildings=20 > with a peaked roof, rows of pews, > crucifixes, priests dressed in white, large hierarchical=20 > organisations, and singing songs no-one > knows the words to. >=20 > Temple has a much broader range of buildings, rituals, and=20 > people associated with it. >=20 > I believe that referring to places of worship as temples will=20 > help free the imaginations of > players and GMs from all the assumptions that are made when=20 > the word Church is used. >=20 > Before I start searching and replacing on the wiki... > Is this reasonable? > Are there any objections? >=20 > Cheers, Stephen. >=20 >=20 > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.30D5F15E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version = 5.5.2658.2"> <TITLE>RE: [dq] Terminology: Church =3D> Temple</TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that Stephen's comments below relate to = buildings, not organisations. 'Temple' is NOT a synonom for 'Church' = (especially when capatalised). If we want a new name for religious = organisations/belief systems (and Jacqui is right, 'Church' IRL seems = to nearly always refer to Christian instances) 'Temple' is a bad choice = for the generic, and worse as a translation of specific = instances.</FONT></P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>e.g. What we currently have in the Wiki (before I = change it) is </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>17 Temple of The One Horned God - A garishly = decorated building on Dedication Road in Old Seagate, next door to the = Temple of Seir. Services (emphasizing 'fertility') are held daily, = often continuing well into the night. Due to enthusiastic attempts to = gain converts by the Temple followers, the immediate area is generally = avoided by the prudish. </FONT></P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>the instances of 'Church/church' having been changed = to 'Temple/temple'.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>While the previous wording was not perfect (and some = allowance must be made for the 'knowledge' available being imprecise), = this is clearly wrong. The Church of the One Horned God (c.f. Church of = Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) is the dominant religon on it's = home ground (off-plane), with followers also in other locations. There = is a temple of the Church in Seagate. 'Temple followers' just doesn't = work (until the schism anyway) - note earlier version had "Church = follower's enthusiastic attempts"</FONT></P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Full formal name of the building is probably 'Temple = of the Church of The One Horned God', shorter version 'Temple [to\|of] = The One Horned God', common name 'Knob God temple'.</FONT></P> <BR> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>tem=B7ple1    ( P )  = Pronunciation Key  (tmpl)</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>n. </FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>a. A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or = worship. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>b. Temple Either of two successive buildings in = ancient Jerusalem serving as the primary center for Jewish worship. = </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>c. Judaism. A synagogue, especially of a Reform = congregation. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>d. Mormon Church. A building in which the sacred = ordinances are administered. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2. Something regarded as having within it a divine = presence. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3. A building used for meetings by any of several = fraternal orders, especially the Knights Templars. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4. A building reserved for a highly valued function: = the library, a temple of learning. </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>5. Temple Either of two groups of buildings in = London, the Inner Temple and the Middle Temple, that house two of the = four Inns of Court and that occupy the site of the medieval Knights = Templars establishment.</FONT></P> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P> <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> From: Stephen Martin [<A = HREF=3D"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">mailto:stephenm@castle.po= intclark.net</A>]</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 11:26</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Subject: [dq] Terminology: Church =3D> = Temple</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> As part of trying to separate the worshipers of = PoLs, PoDs, </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> etc. from our one-god religions I</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> would like to change the terminology for places = of worship </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> from Churches to Temples.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> It may seem minor but I think the words have = considerably </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> different visual/emotional associations.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Church is strongly associated with long = rectangular buildings </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> with a peaked roof, rows of pews,</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> crucifixes, priests dressed in white, large = hierarchical </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> organisations, and singing songs no-one</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> knows the words to.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Temple has a much broader range of buildings, = rituals, and </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> people associated with it.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> I believe that referring to places of worship = as temples will </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> help free the imaginations of</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> players and GMs from all the assumptions that = are made when </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> the word Church is used.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Before I start searching and replacing on the = wiki...</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Is this reasonable?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Are there any objections?</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> Cheers, Stephen.</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> -- to unsubscribe notify <A = HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</= A> --</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>> </FONT> </P> </BODY> </HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.30D5F15E-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:11:26 +1300
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.755A65D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Jacqui Smith Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 09:37 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq] Daimons and Archons At 21:39 29/11/05, you wrote: Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities encouraged... Yes, not sure what the nature of Seir's place is, perhaps more the gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has that covered. Whatever it is, I think it should be referred to as a "shrine". I think the exact word in use says more about the speaker than anything else (my church\|temple / your cult house). However 'temple' seems a better generic term for a place services are held. Shrine has more specific conotations - I'm fairly sure their are no relics etc in the temple to The OHG in Seagate. As far as I can deduce, the word "church" is purely Christian, derived from the Greek "of the lord". It seems to fair enough to use the word for shrines of the archons, but it's probably preferable to use the more neutral terms "shrine" and "temple" for places of worship of daimons or outer powers. (Church: Etymology: Middle English chirche, from Old English cirice, ultimately from Medieval Greek k [] <http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif> rikon, from Late Greek k [] <http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif> riakon (d [] <http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/omacr.gif> ma), the Lord's (house), neuter of Greek k [] <http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif> riakos, of the lord, from k [] <http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif> rios, lord.) Which naturally brings to the subject of the outer powers - the other pantheons, many of whom have more than a toehold on Alusia. The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't be just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield. I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so that explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons? In a word, variable. There is also the matter of the relationship/reactions between followers of different Powers/pantheons, which probably vary even more. Cheers Errol ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.755A65D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Jacqui Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 30 November 2005 09:37<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Daimons and Archons<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>At 21:39 29/11/05, you wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"> <DIV>Actually its just as likely that other POD, envious of Seir's influence, would send their followers to have a go... Which does suggest a story-line or two. Furthermore, the shrine of Seir is likely to be as much a bawdy house as anything - gambling, drinking and other less savoury activities encouraged... <BR><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN class=430564720-29112005> </SPAN><BR>Yes, not sure what the nature of  Seir's place is, perhaps more the gambling than bawdy house... I think the temple of the One Horned God has that covered. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Whatever it is, I think it should be referred to as a "shrine".<SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=430564720-29112005></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=430564720-29112005></SPAN> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think the exact word in use says more about the speaker than anything else (my church\|temple / your cult house). However 'temple' seems a better generic term for a place services are held. Shrine has more specific conotations - I'm fairly sure their are no relics etc in the temple to The OHG in Seagate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><SPAN class=430564720-29112005> </SPAN><BR><BR>As far as I can deduce, the word "church" is purely Christian, derived from the Greek "of the lord". It seems to fair enough to use the word for shrines of the archons, but it's probably preferable to use the more neutral terms "shrine" and "temple" for places of worship of daimons or outer powers. <BR><BR>(Church: Etymology: Middle English <FONT color=#000020><I>chirche</I>, from Old English <I>cirice</I>, ultimately from Medieval Greek <I>k<IMG alt=[] src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" NOSEND="1"> rikon</I>, from Late Greek <I>k<IMG alt=[] src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" NOSEND="1"> riakon (d<IMG alt=[] src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/omacr.gif" NOSEND="1"> ma)</I>, the Lord's (house), neuter of Greek <I>k<IMG alt=[] src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" NOSEND="1"> riakos</I>, of the lord, from <I>k<IMG alt=[] src="http://www.bartleby.com/61/74/images/pronunciation/umacr.gif" NOSEND="1"> rios</I>, lord.)<BR><BR>Which naturally brings to the subject of the outer powers - the other pantheons, many of whom have more than a toehold on Alusia. The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't be just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield.<BR><BR>I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so  that explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons?<BR><BR></FONT><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>In a word, variable. There is also the matter of the relationship/reactions between followers of different Powers/pantheons, which probably vary even more.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><SPAN class=430564720-29112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F529.755A65D0-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:05:45 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F595.A1916600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was killed at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of Sheapur in the Five sisters. Engalton ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F595.A1916600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Great = victory=20 - <!--StartFragment --><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> = Rashak <I>the=20 Destroyer</I>, Mistress of Masada <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>was=20 killed </FONT></FONT>at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - = south=20 west of <FONT size=3D2>Sheapur in the Five sisters.</DIV></FONT> <DIV></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Engalton</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C5F595.A1916600-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple
From	Stephen Martin
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:18:44 +1300 (NZDT)
Yes a better description of the powers is essential. It would probably even help if we could get a majority to agree on how they work. The point is to not use the word Church when creating those descriptions. > Umm, and the point is? > were you also going to stop using the 'church of the western kingdom'? or 'the church' as a > general cognomen for the POL? "The cult of the 5 archangels" feels much less opressive and > pervasive than the CotWK. > > words are useful, until they mislead. However, as the PC nausea has shown, changing a word > without changing the meaning is pointless, as the new word rapidly acquires the connotations of > the first. > > we need better descriptions of the Powers, and those that worship/follow them, rather than just > changing the odd word. > > please add IMO as required. insert 'H' if it makes you feel better. > > Ian > > >> >> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> >> Date: 2005/11/29 Tue AM 11:26:01 GMT+13:00 >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> Subject: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple >> >> As part of trying to separate the worshipers of PoLs, PoDs, etc. from our one-god religions I >> would like to change the terminology for places of worship from Churches to Temples. >> >> It may seem minor but I think the words have considerably different visual/emotional >> associations. >> >> Church is strongly associated with long rectangular buildings with a peaked roof, rows of >> pews, crucifixes, priests dressed in white, large hierarchical organisations, and singing >> songs no-one knows the words to. >> >> Temple has a much broader range of buildings, rituals, and people associated with it. >> >> I believe that referring to places of worship as temples will help free the imaginations of >> players and GMs from all the assumptions that are made when the word Church is used. >> >> Before I start searching and replacing on the wiki... >> Is this reasonable? >> Are there any objections? >> >> Cheers, Stephen. >> >> >> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- >> > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple
From
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:20:18 +1300
i agree with Martin, no need to change the nouns. a better/fuller description on the wiki will do more to separate game religion from real world ones. less concern on what words we use, and more effort on the substance will go a long way towards a fuller game (IMOSHO). What is wrong with Powers as teh collective noun for Demons and Archangels? Ian > > From: Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> > Date: 2005/11/29 Tue PM 09:23:20 GMT+13:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple > > On 11/29/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote: > > > > > > Before I start searching and replacing on the wiki... > > Is this reasonable? > > > No. > > Are there any objections? > > > Yes. > > As you wrote: "Church is strongly associated with long rectangular buildings > with a peaked roof, rows of pews, crucifixes, priests dressed in white, > large hierarchical organisations, and singing songs no-one knows the words > to." > > Apart from the crucifixes (which one may mentally replace with sun symbols > if you wish) this is a pretty good nutshell description of the PoL religion > as portrayed in most cases in Alusia. > > Ergo, Church is, if not the only correct term, then probably the most > fitting. > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple
From	Clare Baldock
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:21:34 +1300
On 30/11/2005, at 10:09, Errol Cavit wrote: > If we want a new name for religious organisations/belief systems Let me weigh in on the side of "we don't" cheers, clare -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Errol Cavit
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:33:55 +1300
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F52C.997C26C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" OK Engalton, coming from you I give this more credence than from the SGT, but are you sure? Indeed, are you Engalton? What does killed mean anyway? We seem to have enough trouble with that Fox fella. WordSmith (wearing his Amulet of Ennui) -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 07:06 To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was killed at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of Sheapur in the Five sisters. Engalton ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F52C.997C26C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=519522321-29112005>OK Engalton, coming from you I give this more credence than from the SGT, but are you sure? Indeed, are you Engalton?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=519522321-29112005>What does killed mean anyway? We seem to have enough trouble with that Fox fella.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=519522321-29112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=519522321-29112005>WordSmith</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=519522321-29112005>(wearing his Amulet of Ennui)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 1 December 2005 07:06<BR><B>To:</B> dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104345717-30112005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Great victory - <!--StartFragment --><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> Rashak <I>the Destroyer</I>, Mistress of Masada <FONT face=Arial size=2>was killed </FONT></FONT>at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of <FONT size=2>Sheapur in the Five sisters.</DIV></FONT> <DIV></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=104345717-30112005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104345717-30112005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Engalton</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=104345717-30112005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F52C.997C26C6-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Clare Baldock
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:37:57 +1300
On 01/12/2005, at 07:05, Jonathan Bean - TME wrote: > Great victory -� Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was > killed�at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of > Sheapur in the Five sisters. Here's hoping she stays dead! Dellith -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple
From
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:38:32 +1300
the point is to use church or any other noun in a context, and better still to give that context. Church is fine. Focus on the context and descriptions. Ian > > From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> > Date: 2005/11/30 Wed AM 10:18:44 GMT+13:00 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple > > Yes a better description of the powers is essential. It would probably even help if we could get > a majority to agree on how they work. > > The point is to not use the word Church when creating those descriptions. > > > > Umm, and the point is? > > were you also going to stop using the 'church of the western kingdom'? or 'the church' as a > > general cognomen for the POL? "The cult of the 5 archangels" feels much less opressive and > > pervasive than the CotWK. > > > > words are useful, until they mislead. However, as the PC nausea has shown, changing a word > > without changing the meaning is pointless, as the new word rapidly acquires the connotations of > > the first. > > > > we need better descriptions of the Powers, and those that worship/follow them, rather than just > > changing the odd word. > > > > please add IMO as required. insert 'H' if it makes you feel better. > > > > Ian > > > > > >> > >> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> > >> Date: 2005/11/29 Tue AM 11:26:01 GMT+13:00 > >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > >> Subject: [dq] Terminology: Church => Temple > >> > >> As part of trying to separate the worshipers of PoLs, PoDs, etc. from our one-god religions I > >> would like to change the terminology for places of worship from Churches to Temples. > >> > >> It may seem minor but I think the words have considerably different visual/emotional > >> associations. > >> > >> Church is strongly associated with long rectangular buildings with a peaked roof, rows of > >> pews, crucifixes, priests dressed in white, large hierarchical organisations, and singing > >> songs no-one knows the words to. > >> > >> Temple has a much broader range of buildings, rituals, and people associated with it. > >> > >> I believe that referring to places of worship as temples will help free the imaginations of > >> players and GMs from all the assumptions that are made when the word Church is used. > >> > >> Before I start searching and replacing on the wiki... > >> Is this reasonable? > >> Are there any objections? > >> > >> Cheers, Stephen. > >> > >> > >> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > >> > > > > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Struan Judd
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:40:08 +1300
So I gues this means that all the well directed and focused units she's assembled will now revert to their usual chaotic and self serving behaviour. Plenty of ongoing work for Guild members during the mop-up I bet. Yours, Gerald On 12/1/05, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote: > > Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was killed at > 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of Sheapur in the Five > sisters. > > Engalton > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Helen Saggers
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:14:08 +1300
As long as Adam doesn't get pregnant again I have have a hope. Thorn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clare Baldock" <clare@orcon.net.nz> Here's hoping she stays dead! Dellith -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Helen Saggers
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:20:28 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C5F5A0.11A3D810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any news of our other heros? If I can be of assistance..... Thorn=20 Hero and Master healer -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 07:06 To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was killed at = 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of Sheapur in the = Five sisters. Engalton ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C5F5A0.11A3D810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D""> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any news of our other = heros?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I can be of = assistance.....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thorn </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hero and Master healer</DIV> <DIV><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Jonathan Bean - TME=20 [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]<BR>Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 = 07:06<BR>To:=20 dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>Subject: [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th=20 Seedtime<BR><BR><BR>Great victory -  Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress = of=20 Masada was killed at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south = west of=20 Sheapur in the Five sisters.<BR><BR>Engalton</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C5F5A0.11A3D810-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Struan Judd
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:05:53 +1300
A Quiet rumour gets started that all drinks for Guild members on Beltane are on Engalton (and the party) .... On 11/30/05, Clare Baldock <clare@orcon.net.nz> wrote: > > On 01/12/2005, at 07:05, Jonathan Bean - TME wrote: > > > Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was > > killedat 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of > > Sheapur in the Five sisters. > > Here's hoping she stays dead! > > Dellith > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:59:36 -0800
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C5F59D.27441110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi WordSmith, Killed = soul eaten by own armour. I could say but the party sold the story and book rights to the SGT as they will give a fair and true account... and we make 50sp on the deal... I hope you will be able to read about it in the Seagate Times. Engalton -----Original Message----- From: dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Errol Cavit Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 1:34 p.m. To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime OK Engalton, coming from you I give this more credence than from the SGT, but are you sure? Indeed, are you Engalton? What does killed mean anyway? We seem to have enough trouble with that Fox fella. WordSmith (wearing his Amulet of Ennui) -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, 1 December 2005 07:06 To: dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime Great victory - Rashak the Destroyer, Mistress of Masada was killed at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west - south west of Sheapur in the Five sisters. Engalton ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C5F59D.27441110 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=3D329165618-30112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005>Hi WordSmith,</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005>Killed =3D soul eaten by own = armour.</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005></SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I could say = but the=20 party sold the story and book rights to the SGT as they will give a fair = and=20 true account... and we make 50sp on the deal...</SPAN><SPAN=20 style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><FONT size=3D3><FONT = color=3D#000000><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New Roman"> <?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20 "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"=20 /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005>I hope you </SPAN>will <SPAN=20 class=3D329165618-30112005>be able </SPAN>to read about it in the = Seagate=20 Times.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P> <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN = lang=3DEN-NZ><FONT=20 size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20 face=3D"Times New = Roman"> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN=20 lang=3DEN-NZ=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; = mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; = mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: = AR-SA">Engalton</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D329165618-30112005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff = size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT = face=3DTahoma=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> = dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20 [mailto:dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Errol=20 Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 29 November 2005 1:34 = p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20 dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th = Seedtime<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D519522321-29112005>OK=20 Engalton, coming from you I give this more credence than from the SGT, = but are=20 you sure? Indeed, are you Engalton?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN = class=3D519522321-29112005>What=20 does killed mean anyway? We seem to have enough trouble with that Fox=20 fella.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D519522321-29112005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D519522321-29112005>WordSmith</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20 class=3D519522321-29112005>(wearing his Amulet of = Ennui)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20 style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20 size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jonathan Bean - = TME=20 [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 1 December = 2005=20 07:06<BR><B>To:</B> dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B>=20 [dq-announce] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>Great victory=20 - <!--StartFragment --><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> = Rashak=20 <I>the Destroyer</I>, Mistress of Masada <FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>was=20 killed </FONT></FONT>at 4:02am 15th Seedtime 805, 50 miles west = - south=20 west of <FONT size=3D2>Sheapur in the Five sisters.</DIV></FONT> <DIV></FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT = face=3DArial=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial=20 size=3D2>Engalton</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=3D104345717-30112005><FONT face=3DArial = color=3D#0000ff=20 size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20 = size=3D2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM= L> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01C5F59D.27441110-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Keith Smith
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:40:57 +1300
>I could say but the party sold the story and book rights to the SGT >as they will give a fair and true account... and we make 50sp on the deal... > >I hope you will be able to read about it in the Seagate Times. So, what does that mean for the Dark Circle itself? Has it collapsed, or is it still there? And anyone game to join me in a clean up? Basalic (preparing to go out to help mop up any foes left) -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:01:59 -0800
Basalic said; "So, what does that mean for the Dark Circle itself? Has it collapsed, or is it still there? And anyone game to join me in a clean up?" ----------------------------------------------------- You should all know. Rashak is dead. Most of her evil elite guard (Dark Titans) got away. The Dark Circle is independent of her and still in place. The list of enemies to the guild is large; many lich lords, including 2+ undead dragons, lots of specters, 4,000+ lesser undead, many Drow allies, 200+ vampires, and many named evil villains. The 12th Veil we understand is still in Masada; the veils consist of primordial chaos from the god times. Masada (her fortress) is intacted. Cleaning up will I expect be a long and 'very hard process' maybe taking years. Engalton -----Original Message----- From: dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Keith Smith Sent: Tuesday, 29 November 2005 2:41 p.m. To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq-pub] Rashak killed 15th Seedtime >I could say but the party sold the story and book rights to the SGT >as they will give a fair and true account... and we make 50sp on the deal... > >I hope you will be able to read about it in the Seagate Times. So, what does that mean for the Dark Circle itself? Has it collapsed, or is it still there? And anyone game to join me in a clean up? Basalic (preparing to go out to help mop up any foes left) -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-pub-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Martin Dickson
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:34:54 +1300
------=_Part_15100_11694181.1133307294996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 11/30/05, Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz> wrote: > > > I think I'd rather not use "Elohim" - for those who know their theology, > "Elohim" is one of the Hebrew words used for God in the Old Testament... It's also the term the Raelians use for their super ETs who meddled with life on earth. :-) And it's not as straightforward as you suggest. The same term is used for pagan gods (Ex. 20:3), and also for somewhat ill-defined beings (Gen 6:2) Let's avoid annoying any Jews we might have in our midst. Or we could try not to annoy fundamentalists by making no mention of other gods at all. Honestly. The term has been in use in DQ for the PoL for 10 years. There seems little point in changing it. Archon does not have those associations, and like Daimon, comes from the > Greek. It is close enough to "Archangel" in sound if not in root, is eas= y > to say, and inoffensive. It's in the dictionary and the history books so > they can't copywrite it. Archon is a perfectly nice word. However, we've had Archangels for as long as I can recall , so 20-years odd... and again, changing this just doesn't seem necessary. The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and > the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't = be > just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield. The Norse gods have many followers, both in human lands, and also amongst the dwarves. I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and > I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so t= hat > explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship > between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons? Ah, these would be "Gods"... as opposed to transcendent mortals. Well, som= e might not be, but the Norse are. Cheers, Martin ------=_Part_15100_11694181.1133307294996 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 11/30/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Jacqui Smith</b> <<a href=3D"= mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz">flamis@ihug.co.nz</a>> wrote:<div><span class= =3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l= eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:= 1ex;"> <br> I think I'd rather not use "Elohim" - for those who know their theology, "Elohim" is one of the Hebrew words used for God in the Old Testament...</blockquote><div><br>It's also the term the Raelians u= se for their super ETs who meddled with life on earth. :-)<br> <br>And= it's not as straightforward as you suggest. The same term is used for paga= n gods (Ex. 20:3), and also for somewhat ill-defined beings (Gen 6:2) <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s= olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Let= 's avoid annoying any Jews we might have in our midst.</blockquote><div><br>Or we could try not t= o annoy fundamentalists by making no mention of other gods at all. <br><br>= Honestly. The term has been in use in DQ for the PoL for 10 years. There se= ems little point in changing it. <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s= olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Archon does not have those associations, and like Daimon, comes from the Greek. It is close enough to "Archangel" in sound if not in root,  is easy to say, and inoffensive. It's in the dictionary and the history books so they can't copywrite it. </blockquote><div><br>Archon = is a perfectly nice word.  However, we've had Archangels for as long a= s I can recall , so 20-years odd... and again, changing this just doesn't s= eem necessary.=20 <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s= olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><fo= nt color=3D"#000020">The Pasikans worship Tane and Tangaroa, the Caledonians swear by Lugh and the Morrigan, and I'm sure the Norse Gods have their devotees - it can't be just Grizelda who has Odin's symbol on her shield.</font></blockquote><div>= <br>The Norse gods have  many followers, both in human lands, and also= amongst the dwarves.<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p= adding-left: 1ex;"> <font color=3D"#000020"> I know what the Caledonian deities are - immortal lords of the fey... and I'm toying with the likelihood the Caledonians originated off plane so  that explains them. But what about the others? And what is the relationship between the outer powers and the Archons and Daimons?</font></blockquote><div><br>Ah, these would be "Gods"...= as opposed to transcendent mortals.  Well, some might not be, but the= Norse are.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br> ------=_Part_15100_11694181.1133307294996-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:59:54 +1300
> Honestly. The term has been in use in DQ for the PoL for 10 years. There seems little point in changing it. I think now is the perfect time to make a change, we have the Wiki and other means for information dissemination, which means change is easier than previous occasions. I think we should be focusing on what we want from our powers and then using the campaign committee (who have done a fine job with the DC so far) to generate a story arc to take us where we want to be. So the question is what do people want from the Gods, Powers, and other otherworldly beings. For my view I want to see a mixture of cultures and religions, especially around Seagate. Bustling temple squares or avenues with religious buildings of many different types. The monochromatic view with the PoL being the only dominant religion detracts from the world IMHO. Here is where the issue of terms comes in. If we keep using the christian terms we stay in a mindset of medievil Europe which enforces the bland single religion mindset we have at the moment. If the majority of people actually want to play in a mono-theistic style society on Alusia, that's fine, lets define it as that so we can at least all know where we stand. If not we should work out what we want and define the terms and society as we wish. Lets not cling too hard to what has gone before....if we want to change the demons and remove some from the game or make them gods or even add more we have the campagin committee and other interested people to create story arcs to in game change the way things are to want we want to see....once we define what that is. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Clare Baldock
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:21:14 +1300
On 30/11/2005, at 12:59, Mandos Mitchinson wrote: > If the majority of people actually want to play in a mono-theistic > style > society on Alusia, that's fine, lets define it as that so we can at > least all know where we stand. If not we should work out what we want > and define the terms and society as we wish. I'm not sure if not seeing a need to change the words "Church", "ArchAngel" etc. means wanting to play in a mono-theistic style. I think the words are fine, and I don't think there is anything mono-theistic about the religions on Alusia. I think they need more definition and a more coherent approach to how the PoL in particular interact with the world. cheers, clare -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:07:53 -0800
I don't like the way that things seem to be going. Everything is turning shades of grey. I like a more clan/tribal-based appeal, which is more them and us - so is more black and white. I like it as then you can see the odd things out with greater ease, the exceptions are just that. I find it presents less of a problem for moral dilemma also. I think good guys should be good, bad guys should be bad - not grey. I think you should redefine the bad guys to be almost bad guys, some of the time. I don't like the watering down of stuff, again. Jonathan Bean -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:11:36 -0800
type: I think you should not redefine the bad guys to be almost bad guys, some of the time. Jono -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 4:08 p.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons I don't like the way that things seem to be going. Everything is turning shades of grey. I like a more clan/tribal-based appeal, which is more them and us - so is more black and white. I like it as then you can see the odd things out with greater ease, the exceptions are just that. I find it presents less of a problem for moral dilemma also. I think good guys should be good, bad guys should be bad - not grey. I think you should redefine the bad guys to be almost bad guys, some of the time. I don't like the watering down of stuff, again. Jonathan Bean -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Jonathan Bean - TME
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:22:35 -0800
I'm over typos... I mean... I think you should not redefine the bad guys to be almost bad guys, some of he time. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2005 4:08 p.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons I don't like the way that things seem to be going. Everything is turning shades of grey. I like a more clan/tribal-based appeal, which is more them and us - so is more black and white. I like it as then you can see the odd things out with greater ease, the exceptions are just that. I find it presents less of a problem for moral dilemma also. I think good guys should be good, bad guys should be bad - not grey. I think you should redefine the bad guys to be almost bad guys, some of the time. I don't like the watering down of stuff, again. Jonathan Bean -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:36:58 +1300
> Everything is turning shades of grey. > I like a more clan/tribal-based appeal, which is more them > and us - so is more black and white. I like it as then you > can see the odd things out with greater ease, the exceptions > are just that. I find it presents less of a problem for moral > dilemma also. I think it is the removal of the moral dilemma that removes the interest. If you can morally say That's good, that's Bad where are the elements of temptation? The doing something a little bit bad or a little bit good? You end up with you are good or you are bad and With Good and Bad being defined as enemies there is no redemption for either side. Removing the Grey is removing roleplaying opprortunities. You move to a ....I am not bad anymore I'm good....instead of a struggle to redeem past problems and develop as a character. Good people should be able to be lured to do bad things by powers that appear to be ok but are actually bad. I personally want moral dilemma's they provide good roleplaying opportunities outside of the 'going somewhere and beating something up' portion of the adventure. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Daimons and Archons
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:39:53 +1300
> I think it is the removal of the moral dilemma that removes > the interest. If you can morally say That's good, that's Bad > where are the elements of temptation? The doing something a > little bit bad or a little bit good? You end up with you are > good or you are bad and With Good and Bad being defined as > enemies there is no redemption for either side. Should mention character involvement and possible bias here. Currently I play a "Good" character who is slowly being swayed through gifts from a demon to the dark side as well as a "Good" PoL who see's just about everything as temptation and goes to extremes to avoid falling to darkness. Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --