Subject[dq] Rulebook 2006 minor fixes (was: cantrips)
FromErrol Cavit
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 09:05:24 +1300 
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I've added a Wiki page to note little improvements like this pending setting
up something more structured.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/2006_Minor_Fixes

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Helen Saggers
> Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2005 20:38
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] cantrips
> 
> 
> Troubadour Subskill Prestidigitation:
> 2%(+2/rank) on the casting of all minor magics , that means cantrips
> Its hiding behind the wording, Cantips say they are minor 
> magics in the
> first paragraph.
> 
> Helen
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Kelsie" <kelsie@e3.net.nz>
> 
> 
> 
> > What happened to the trobadour bonus on cantrips,or is it 
> just eluding me?
> >
> > Kelsie
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've added a Wiki page to note little improvements =
like this pending setting up something more structured.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/2006_Minor_Fixes"=
 =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/2006_Mi=
nor_Fixes</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen Saggers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Sunday, 4 December 2005 20:38</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] cantrips</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Troubadour Subskill Prestidigitation:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2%(+2/rank) on the casting of all minor magics =
, that means cantrips</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Its hiding behind the wording, Cantips say they =
are minor </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; magics in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; first paragraph.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: &quot;Kelsie&quot; =
&lt;kelsie@e3.net.nz&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; What happened to the trobadour bonus on =
cantrips,or is it </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; just eluding me?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Kelsie</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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Subject[dq-pub] Mumblings and Grumblings.
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 10:14:10 +1300
In the Guild pub there are mutterings amongst the members.

"A temple to Sier, right there in plain view!"
"We should put it to the torch, damn demon worshippers, scum of the
Guild" 
"Please won't someone think of the children!"
"You know we should talk to the Duke about this!"
"Yeah we pay our taxes, this kind of thing in our town is completely
unreasonable"
"You know next door there were people fornicating in public at another
temple!"
"Please won't someone think of the children!"
"It's time to do something about the debachery in our town!

Etc etc etc......

William and I are planning a short out of game time adventurelet by
Email, similar to the one Martin ran against the Dark Cirle. This is
open to any characters religious or otherwise that wish to be involved
in a crusade against the dark powers in New and Old seagate. 

Those aligned with the Powers of Light should speak to William
(dworkin@ihug.co.nz), those aligned with the powers of Darkness (who I
presumen may repond to the situation should contact myself
(badguys@dragonquest.org.nz . 

Please pass the details on to other people who are off the list, the
more people the more fun.

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate Intro
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:32:26 +1300
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Hi All,
There has been vigourous discussion off the list on whether demon
temples, acknowledged demon worshipers, etc. should be allowed in
Seagate or if they should be dealt with by the Duke and/or PoL agents.
The GMs discussing this have polarised and neither side can see the
other's point of view.
=20
I'm about to post a series of emails, and would like you to think about
this and give us your opinion, and/or reasoning.
=20
Thanks in advance.
=20
Andrew

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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi=20
All,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There =
has been=20
vigourous discussion off the list on whether demon temples, acknowledged =
demon=20
worshipers, etc. should be allowed in Seagate or if they should be dealt =
with by=20
the Duke and/or PoL agents. The GMs discussing this have polarised and =
neither=20
side can see the other's point of view.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm =
about to post a=20
series of emails, and would like you to think about this and give us =
your=20
opinion, and/or reasoning.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks =
in=20
advance.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840452800-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 1
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:33:23 +1300

-----Original Message-----

Saydar regaled Turf with his bravery during his
recently completed adventure. Turf was very surprised
to hear there was a Temple to a demon with Seagate,
and quizzed Saydar further to obtain complete details
of the temple and its inhabitants. Having spoken to
Father Rowan and Blitzkrieg he will approach both the
Duke and PoL churches in Seagate and supply them with
the detail. Demons are evil and vile beings, and Turf
expects the Duke and Church to perform their duties
and scour this blight from our fair city. The fully
assistance of Turf, Father Rowan and Baron Blitzkrieg
is offered to support the Duke and Church in dealing
with this problem. 

Also we demand a statement from the Duke regarding the
status of demonic agents and followers that roam the
city, surely their foul influence cannot be welcome
and they should be hunted down.


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 3
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:34:59 +1300
Can't find the reply to post 1, but this is the response to that.

-----Original Message-----


Thank you the input we have received. I would like to
correct an apparent lack of clarity in my previous
email; the characters are not leading the actions,
only supporting them. We believe we live in a heroic
world and Demons are viewed as absolute pure evil and
a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to indulge
the terrorist v freedom fighter or any similar
argument. Regardless of the nature of response in our
corner of the world from the NPCs that carry power and influence (the
Duke, Church etc) we expect them to lead, to make a decision. If Demons
are redefines a mischievous power that require an occasional newspaper
across the nose we would like to know.


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:35:29 +1300

-----Original Message-----

To those in the UK, greetings.

Please dont expect a sudden decision from us. We are meeting soon, this
will be discussed and a path forward developed. We will be in touch to
discuss that. 

Lack of overt action from us does not mean we are not discussing it
already. There are many aspects to the game, and we require ourselves to
observe internal consistency, and game ballance.

Absolute evil is one way of looking at demons. It feels very 'D&D'. DQ
has been associated with demons for 20+ years, without any
inter-religious warfare, so i think we can take a few days to get this
right.


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4b
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:36:17 +1300
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Then, after the weekend
-----Original Message-----


On 12/2/05, terry spencer <terryintransit@yahoo.com> wrote:=20

	We believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as
absolute pure evil and
	a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to indulge the
terrorist v freedom fighter or any similar argument. Regardless of the
nature of response in our corner of the world from the NPCs that carry
power and influence (the Duke, Church etc) we expect them to lead, to
make a decision. If Demons are redefines a mischievous power that
require an occasional newspaper across the nose we would like to know.=20


Greetings Terry,

We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee
meeting, and considered it from the point of view of what is the best
approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range of
roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as
possible to the established campaign history.

It is our opinion that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is
preferable to monotheism; many religions are preferable to fewer, and
less monolithic religious establishments are preferable to more. This
offers a broader range of roleplaying options.  It also creates a less
stable political and social situation, and it is generally in less
stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options exist.

Throughout the campaign's history there has been the availability of
player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of
Light), with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story
complications that this has entailed. We wish to retain this
possibility, and for the PoD at least, this requires more nuances and
shades of grey than simply black and pure evil -- else the Guild should
be cleaning house rather than worrying about a Temple in Seagate.

The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe above is certainly a
valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the only one, and
the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from supporting
many different flavours of fantasy play.

It also appears that your suggestion that demons must be either
"absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a false dilemma, there is
significant middle ground between these positions that offers the broad
range of roleplaying options that we believe is preferable.

Additionally, it appears preferable that actions outweigh appearances --
the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as the Temple of
Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is
consistent with the Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are
aligned with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers,
Assassins, etc, provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules.
The broad range of character options so offered are considered desirable
in the campaign, and the actions of the individual are considered of
more importance than their race, college, or associations.

(A position I'm sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as
someone who plays a very much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for
an Orc Necromancer of legendary unpleasantness who is nonetheless one of
the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who himself adventures with
another hero of the DC who is aligned with Seir.)

With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our
campaign base location, we have determined the following response /
position for the Duke of Carzala:

1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.

2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more
standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence
currently -- particularly with the number of troops around for the DC --
but their standing is not official).

3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated
Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay
taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as gambling or
brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses.
(Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)  Note that not every business
within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views
religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree of
control over them.

4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their
members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making
Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted
against members of the religion and the punishments available are
limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the
member is free to quit the religion if they so desire).

5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as secular
crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or someone thinks
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns down another
religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they will all be
charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion that
sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an
unlicensed abattoir.

6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some religions,
particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are other religions
in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous to allow in the
Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.

(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to
make it generally available).

So, where does that leave the Temple of Seir?  Well, Seir, while no
naughty puppy is an apparently charming and urbane demon -- which to my
mind probably makes him far more insidious and dangerous in the long
term than an obvious nutball like Aim -- but does mean that his cult is
quite capable of operating within the strictures of society and within
the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying their guild fees, their
taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems no reason not to
allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted that the Temple
appears closed these days -- apparently in response to the number of PoL
troops in the city -- for which the Duke would most likely praise the
cult for their discretion.

People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and must be expunged
should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not violating
city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public
thoroughfare", do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or
leave the Temple, and can preach on street-corners (with the appropriate
licence) about the evils of Seir, and how his public perception of
harmlessness is just a sham, providing they are not "attempting to
incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson would be dealt with
most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers Guild members, such
members could expect to be handed over to the Duke by the Guild).

I hope that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if there
are any parts you'd like to discuss further, or any additional
information we can furnish, please just let us know.

Kind Regards,
Martin (on behalf of the Campaign Committee)


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D681543500-05122005>Then,=20
after the weekend</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/2/05, <B=20
class=3Dgmail_sendername>terry spencer</B> &lt;<A=20
onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
href=3D"mailto:terryintransit@yahoo.com"=20
target=3D_blank>terryintransit@yahoo.com</A>&gt; wrote:
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">We=20
  believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as absolute =
pure evil=20
  and<BR>a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to indulge the =
terrorist v=20
  freedom fighter or any similar argument. Regardless of the nature of =
response=20
  in our corner of the world from the NPCs that carry power and =
influence (the=20
  Duke, Church etc) we expect them to lead, to make a decision. If =
Demons are=20
  redefines a mischievous power that require an occasional newspaper =
across the=20
  nose we would like to know. </BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Greetings Terry,<BR><BR>We discussed your question / request on =
Sunday=20
at a campaign committee meeting, and considered it from the point of =
view of=20
what is the best approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible =
range=20
of roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as =
possible=20
to the established campaign history.<BR><BR>It is our opinion that =
within the=20
Guild campaign world polytheism is preferable to monotheism; many =
religions are=20
preferable to fewer, and less monolithic religious establishments are =
preferable=20
to more. This offers a broader range of roleplaying options.&nbsp; It =
also=20
creates a less stable political and social situation, and it is =
generally in=20
less stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options=20
exist.<BR><BR>Throughout the campaign's history there has been the =
availability=20
of player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of =
Light),=20
with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story =
complications that=20
this has entailed. We wish to retain this possibility, and for the PoD =
at least,=20
this requires more nuances and shades of grey than simply black and pure =
evil --=20
else the Guild should be cleaning house rather than worrying about a =
Temple in=20
Seagate.<BR><SPAN><BR>The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe =
above is=20
certainly a valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the =
only one,=20
and the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from =
supporting many=20
different flavours of fantasy play.<BR><BR>It also appears that your =
suggestion=20
that demons must be either "absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a =
false=20
dilemma, there is significant middle ground between these positions that =
offers=20
the broad range of roleplaying options that we believe is=20
preferable.<BR><BR>Additionally, it appears preferable that actions =
outweigh=20
appearances -- the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as =
the Temple=20
of Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is =
consistent=20
with the </SPAN><SPAN>Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are =
aligned=20
with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, Assassins, etc, =

provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. The broad range of =

character options so offered are considered desirable in the campaign, =
and the=20
actions of the individual are considered of more importance than their =
race,=20
college, or associations.</SPAN><BR><SPAN><BR>(A position I'm sure you =
yourself=20
can understand and appreciate as someone who plays a very much "white =
hat"=20
character who is Sheriff for an Orc Necromancer of legendary =
unpleasantness who=20
is nonetheless one of the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who =
himself=20
adventures with another hero of the DC who is aligned with =
Seir.)<BR><BR>With=20
this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our =
campaign base=20
location, we have determined the following response / position for the =
Duke of=20
Carzala:<BR><BR>1) Ducal law trumps all other law within =
Carzala.<BR><BR>2)=20
Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more =
standing=20
than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence currently =
--=20
particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- but their =
standing=20
is not official).<BR><BR>3) Within Carzala religions are treated like =
any=20
other&nbsp; incorporated Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by =
the=20
Duke. They pay taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as =
gambling or=20
brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses. =
(Tithes=20
are not tax deductible). :-)&nbsp; Note that not every business within =
the Duchy=20
needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views religions as =
political=20
entities and wishes to maintain a degree of control over them.<BR><BR>4) =
Their=20
charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their members. =
This means=20
that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making Blasphemy, Heresy, etc =
guild=20
crimes. These can only then be prosecuted against members of the =
religion and=20
the punishments available are limited. (Generally fines, corporal =
punishment,=20
servitude -- but the member is free to quit the religion if they so=20
desire).<BR><BR>5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be =
prosecuted as=20
secular crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or =
someone thinks=20
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest </SPAN><SPAN>burns =
down=20
another religion's temple</SPAN><SPAN> on the instructions of their god, =
they=20
will all be charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion =
that=20
sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an =

unlicensed abattoir.<BR><BR>6) Not every religion or cult will be =
offered a=20
charter. Some religions, particularly some of the demonic groups (but =
there are=20
other religions in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous =
to allow=20
in the Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for=20
example.<BR><BR>(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto =
the=20
wiki to make it generally available).<BR><BR>So, where does that leave =
the=20
Temple of Seir?&nbsp; Well, Seir, while no naughty puppy is an =
apparently=20
charming and urbane demon -- which to my mind probably makes him far =
more=20
insidious and dangerous in the long term than an obvious nutball like =
Aim -- but=20
does mean that his cult is quite capable of operating within the =
strictures of=20
society and within the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying =
their guild=20
fees, their taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems no reason =
not to=20
allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted that the Temple =
appears=20
closed these days -- apparently in response to the number of PoL troops =
in the=20
city -- for which the Duke would most likely praise the cult for their=20
discretion.<BR><BR>People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and =
must be=20
expunged should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not =
violating=20
city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public =
thoroughfare",=20
do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or leave the Temple, =
and can=20
preach on street-corners (with the appropriate licence) about the evils =
of Seir,=20
and how his public perception of harmlessness is just a sham, providing =
they are=20
not "attempting to incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson =
would be=20
dealt with most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers Guild =
members, such=20
members could expect to be handed over to the Duke by the =
Guild).<BR><BR>I hope=20
that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if there are =
any parts=20
you'd like to discuss further, or any additional information we can =
furnish,=20
please just let us know.<BR><BR>Kind Regards,<BR>Martin (on behalf of =
the=20
Campaign Committee)</SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>
=00
------_=_NextPart_001_01C5F933.E7EA7E2C--


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:37:06 +1300
And we reach stalemate. Help.

-----Original Message-----

Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/2/05, terry spencer <terryintransit@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > We believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as 
> > absolute pure evil and a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to

> > indulge the terrorist v freedom fighter or any similar argument. 
> > Regardless of the nature of response in our corner of the world from

> > the NPCs that carry power and influence (the Duke, Church etc) we 
> > expect them to lead, to make a
> decision.
> > If Demons are redefines a mischievous power that require an 
> > occasional newspaper across the nose we would like to know.
>
>
> Greetings Terry,
>
> We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee

> meeting, and considered it from the point of view of what is the best 
> approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range of 
> roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as 
> possible to the established campaign history.
>
> It is our opinion that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is 
> preferable to monotheism; many religions are preferable to fewer, and 
> less monolithic religious establishments are preferable to more. This 
> offers a broader range of roleplaying options.  It also creates a less

> stable political and social situation, and it is generally in less 
> stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options 
> exist.


This is not an argument for or against our argument. There are just as
many role-playing opportunities available regardless of the nature of
the religious structure that happens to be in place. It must be, because
the world we currently live in is, largely, monolithically monotheistic,
and people find roles to play in it perfectly well.

That aside, however, our position has never been to make the world
monotheistic. It is our aim to remain true to what the DQ has always
said, which is to say that there are 72 named demons and that the reside
on the 7th Plane, which is not included in the tourist maps.

It is laughable to argue that the world is any more or less politically
stable, since it doesn't exist. We made it up. To argue that the world
might be politically less stable if demons are not in some way sanitised
cannot possibly entertained seriously. Surely, it might be modelled
economically, but even the most astute economist wouldn't suggest that
this latest outpouring of the campaign committee is predictable in any
sensible meaning of the word.

>
> Throughout the campaign's history there has been the availability of 
> player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of 
> Light), with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story 
> complications that this has entailed. We wish to retain this 
> possibility, and for the PoD at least, this requires more nuances and 
> shades of grey than simply black and pure evil -- else the Guild 
> should be cleaning house rather than worrying about a Temple in 
> Seagate.

But you haven't.

You are correct. The possibility always existed to pact to the Powers of
Darkness, and some people chose that. Other people chose to develop
alternatives. This is their choice, now made invalid, sadly, by the
campaign committee.

>
> The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe above is certainly a 
> valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the only one, and

> the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from supporting 
> many different flavours of fantasy play.

We agree that it's not the only one.

But, as it stands, the world was a place where you could create a
character of pretty much whatever you wanted. Now, you have taken
enemies away from characters who derive much of their playability from
having a defined enemy. This includes those people who have pacted to
demons as much as people who have pacted to, shall we say, other forces.

The campaign committee has not widened the playing area to include lots
of different play. It has narrowed it so that it is much harder for
them. And, it is harder for those players who have gone the extra
distance to create their own 'worshipful entity'. The committee is
discouraging players from bringing something to the game as a whole, and
that's shameful.

>
> It also appears that your suggestion that demons must be either 
> "absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a false dilemma, there is 
> significant middle ground between these positions that offers the 
> broad range of roleplaying options that we believe is preferable.

No, it's not a false dilemma. Terry is quite clear about what he means.

The position that the committee has taken is that demons are not
elementally evil. Some are evil, others are not. Our position is that
demons, even the ones like Naberius, who seem reasonable, are in fact
the representative of some 'Great Sin'. Apparently, Naberius' sin was
pride. Mind you, who cares.

>
> Additionally, it appears preferable that actions outweigh appearances 
> -- the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as the Temple 
> of Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is 
> consistent with the Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are 
> aligned with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, 
> Assassins, etc, provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. 
> The broad range of character options so offered are considered 
> desirable in the campaign, and the actions of the individual are 
> considered of more importance than their race, college, or 
> associations.

The point about demons, surely, is that they deceive people into
believing that they are good.

The game doesn't have to make a comment on what is a reasonable way to
pass judgement on a demon. According to doctrine, that has already been
done. And, note, it is doctrine at work, here, not some ruling handed
down by the game. It may be that another player has a different doctrine
to the standard one. That's fine, they should play their character with
respect to that doctrine.

It's not an area that should be of interest to any campaign committee.

A demon is NOT a player character. It is a part of the environment. They
are different from, say, the Duke. There is only one Duke, and he needs
to be pretty much the same whoever he speaks to.

Demons, on the other hard, are not like that at all. Murmur in one game
can be a charming, avuncular chap, on another a ravening beast and on
yet another a eminence grise manipulating things behind a curtain. We
accept this, and our rationalisation is that demons are beyond our
understanding.

We don't think about them in terms of whether or not we have made a
morally sensible judgment, which is what we might do about the Duke. He
is a shared resource. They are not.

>
> (A position I'm sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as 
> someone who plays a very much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for

> an Orc Necromancer of legendary unpleasantness who is nonetheless one 
> of the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who himself adventures 
> with another hero of the DC who is aligned with Seir.)

You're talking about Seidar.

A lot of people examing Seidar, regularly and deeply. This is why the
demand for Dettol has gone up. Nevertheless, no matter what you do to
the little bugger, you can't find any taint of evil in him. Whether or
not he is evil and is merely hiding it is another issue, but rest
assured that many, many people have tried to trip him up and reveal his
true face, but it's never happened.

The reason Turf is Seidar's Sheriff is so he can keep an eye on Seidar.
After all, Turf can summon the rest of us any time it looks like we have
enough proof to put the wretched creature to the flames.

But, sensibly, the reason none of the players have done that is that
he's a pc. As a pc, we try and find ways to work together in an
adventure, and this can be exciting. Andrew helps us out by not being
obvious about Seidar's evil. If he is evil...

>
> With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our 
> campaign base location, we have determined the following response / 
> position for the Duke of Carzala:

This is complete crap, and even if it doesn't come from Greyhawk, this
is what destroyed thag game world.

The campaign committee should be ENCOURAGING religious feuding. The Duke
might have any of a variety of opininons about demonic churches on his
land. His reaction is just a rationalisation.

On the one hand, religious intolerance is fertile ground on which to
base stories in a shared world. On the other hand, it's pretty hard to
believe that a sovereign would allow demonic worship in the open. They
never have done, historically.


>
> 1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.
>
> 2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has 
> more standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more 
> influence currently -- particularly with the number of troops around 
> for the DC -- but their standing is not official).
>
> 3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated 
> Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay 
> taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as gambling or 
> brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses.

> (Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)  Note that not every business 
> within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke 
> views religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree 
> of control over them.
>
> 4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their 
> members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making 
> Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted

> against members of the religion and the punishments available are 
> limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the 
> member is free to quit the religion if they so desire).
>
> 5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as 
> secular crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or 
> someone thinks alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns

> down another religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they 
> will all be charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a 
> religion that sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be 
> prosecuted as an unlicensed abattoir.
>
> 6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some 
> religions, particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are 
> other religions in this category) are just too anti-social or 
> dangerous to allow in the Duchy
> -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.
>
> (We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to 
> make it generally available).
>
> So, where does that leave the Temple of Seir?  Well, Seir, while no 
> naughty puppy is an apparently charming and urbane demon -- which to 
> my mind probably makes him far more insidious and dangerous in the 
> long term than an obvious nutball like Aim -- but does mean that his 
> cult is quite capable of operating within the strictures of society 
> and within the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying their 
> guild fees, their taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems 
> no reason not to allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted

> that the Temple appears closed these days -- apparently in response to

> the number of PoL troops in the city -- for which the Duke would most 
> likely praise the cult for their discretion.
>
> People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and must be expunged 
> should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not violating

> city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public 
> thoroughfare", do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or 
> leave the Temple, and can preach on street-corners (with the 
> appropriate licence) about the evils of Seir, and how his public 
> perception of harmlessness is just a sham, providing they are not 
> "attempting to incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson 
> would be dealt with most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers 
> Guild members, such members could expect to be handed over to the Duke

> by the Guild).

This is not enforceable, really. You cannot make DMs ascribe to this,
and you really oughtn't to have even gone there.

I can run a number of adventures, or cause a number of adventures to be
run, for example, that will change the public image of all demons to the
people of Carzala. The reason it hasn't been done is because up until
the campaign committee stepped in and made this STUPID decision, there
was no particular need to.

>
> I hope that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if 
> there are any parts you'd like to discuss further, or any additional 
> information we can furnish, please just let us know.

This is proof that you can give anything to a committee, and it will
find a way to fix what wasn't broken. It suggests that the more people
involved in a group, the mediocre the results.

I see nothing productive in this ruling. It is the output of a tired
imagination. Bloody pathetic, Martin.
_______________________________________________


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 13:55:53 +1300
I am guessing that the 5th Email came from Jim. 

(As an aside, good to see you back Jim!)

I think the bit that we are missing from the debate is perception. There
are a few perceptions that need to be taken into account. 

1. The Guild members perception. Demons are Evil. Deep Down core of the
tiny, blacked, fires-of-hell warped objects they call their souls. 

2. The common folk. Demons, Angels, Gods and
wossnames-beyond-the-ken-of-man are simply things to worship, vereate or
like many Gods from Earth history to be bribed into leaving you alone. 

I think that both Martin and Jim's Emails are correct, (although Jim's
is possibly a tad ranty) and both are valid and arguing slightly
differing points. 

Basically....

Demons are Evil, we know this, Turf knows this, and anyone who has met
them will generally agree, cept those dumb enough to believe there wiles
and Pact. 

However some demons have a polite face, this is the one the people see.
Many of these Demons have established temples and followers who are no
worse than the average "The church I regularly don't attend on Sunday is
C of E and I won't have a minute of those other religions". Sea Demons
like Furcalor probably have a following amonst sailors who might think
of him as John the God of the Sea who protects them from beaing eaten at
sea, probably by furcalor. 

But I digress, the point is that the demons may not be seen as Evil by
the general populace and while there are some out there who rant,
rabble-rouse and burn down churches and temples they are operating
outside of the law of the area. The war continues, but quietly beneath
the surface. 



With the rest of the Emails, 

Yes Turf and co can set out to burn down the temple of Sier (William and
I are looking to run an out of game story arc by Email about that very
event). However they do so in the knowledge that if caught by the Guard,
the Duke may be pissed and they may suffer retribution from other
sources as well. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:33:12 +1300
Well basically I agree with them, although I suspect that isn't the help you wanted. 

I think the issue can be boiled down to is the campaign going to be better or worse off over-all with open demon worship being allowed and legally protected by the Duke in Seagate? To me the answer is a simple no. It suggests to me the Duke has gone mad and/or is possessed/converted by some such demonic entity, and if that's some story arc the campaign committee is starting off then well and good. But that doesn't appear to be the case. I don't like the flavour and I think its going to stick in the craw of many long time players/gm's. I think its important that the guild and the Duke/Seagate are seen as "basically good", as pillars that individual guild members can fall back on, as authorities they are answerable to should they cross certain lines. Individual guild members choosing to pact to some demon in a dark corner off a far off land is one thing, openly worshipping demons and openly erecting temples to them in plain view is Seagate is quite another. To then suggest that the Duke will throw the weight of the law (his guards, his court, his law) against anyone seeking to oppose them in any "non-lawful" way rubs salt into the wound. The term "demon" has far too much baggage associated with it for this sort of reaction not to be brought out (and no I don't want to get into an argument about the use of the term demon and whether it should be substituted on the wiki for some sort of equine term). 

Having demonic cults hidden underground/secret societies is the stuff I'd expect as the basis for an adventure. Perhaps some corrupt foreign ruler would allow this open demon worship in his/her land, and that too could be the setting for some future adventure. But the Duke, Guild security and the Guild as a whole (as opposed to each individual member) should be seen as incorruptible in the eyes of the players, and basically "good". Demons should be seen as inherently evil and should be used as high end bad guys. 

All imho ... 

   

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 1:37 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5


And we reach stalemate. Help.

-----Original Message-----

Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/2/05, terry spencer <terryintransit@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > We believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as 
> > absolute pure evil and a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to

> > indulge the terrorist v freedom fighter or any similar argument. 
> > Regardless of the nature of response in our corner of the world from

> > the NPCs that carry power and influence (the Duke, Church etc) we 
> > expect them to lead, to make a
> decision.
> > If Demons are redefines a mischievous power that require an 
> > occasional newspaper across the nose we would like to know.
>
>
> Greetings Terry,
>
> We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee

> meeting, and considered it from the point of view of what is the best 
> approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range of 
> roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as 
> possible to the established campaign history.
>
> It is our opinion that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is 
> preferable to monotheism; many religions are preferable to fewer, and 
> less monolithic religious establishments are preferable to more. This 
> offers a broader range of roleplaying options.  It also creates a less

> stable political and social situation, and it is generally in less 
> stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options 
> exist.


This is not an argument for or against our argument. There are just as
many role-playing opportunities available regardless of the nature of
the religious structure that happens to be in place. It must be, because
the world we currently live in is, largely, monolithically monotheistic,
and people find roles to play in it perfectly well.

That aside, however, our position has never been to make the world
monotheistic. It is our aim to remain true to what the DQ has always
said, which is to say that there are 72 named demons and that the reside
on the 7th Plane, which is not included in the tourist maps.

It is laughable to argue that the world is any more or less politically
stable, since it doesn't exist. We made it up. To argue that the world
might be politically less stable if demons are not in some way sanitised
cannot possibly entertained seriously. Surely, it might be modelled
economically, but even the most astute economist wouldn't suggest that
this latest outpouring of the campaign committee is predictable in any
sensible meaning of the word.

>
> Throughout the campaign's history there has been the availability of 
> player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of 
> Light), with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story 
> complications that this has entailed. We wish to retain this 
> possibility, and for the PoD at least, this requires more nuances and 
> shades of grey than simply black and pure evil -- else the Guild 
> should be cleaning house rather than worrying about a Temple in 
> Seagate.

But you haven't.

You are correct. The possibility always existed to pact to the Powers of
Darkness, and some people chose that. Other people chose to develop
alternatives. This is their choice, now made invalid, sadly, by the
campaign committee.

>
> The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe above is certainly a 
> valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the only one, and

> the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from supporting 
> many different flavours of fantasy play.

We agree that it's not the only one.

But, as it stands, the world was a place where you could create a
character of pretty much whatever you wanted. Now, you have taken
enemies away from characters who derive much of their playability from
having a defined enemy. This includes those people who have pacted to
demons as much as people who have pacted to, shall we say, other forces.

The campaign committee has not widened the playing area to include lots
of different play. It has narrowed it so that it is much harder for
them. And, it is harder for those players who have gone the extra
distance to create their own 'worshipful entity'. The committee is
discouraging players from bringing something to the game as a whole, and
that's shameful.

>
> It also appears that your suggestion that demons must be either 
> "absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a false dilemma, there is 
> significant middle ground between these positions that offers the 
> broad range of roleplaying options that we believe is preferable.

No, it's not a false dilemma. Terry is quite clear about what he means.

The position that the committee has taken is that demons are not
elementally evil. Some are evil, others are not. Our position is that
demons, even the ones like Naberius, who seem reasonable, are in fact
the representative of some 'Great Sin'. Apparently, Naberius' sin was
pride. Mind you, who cares.

>
> Additionally, it appears preferable that actions outweigh appearances 
> -- the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as the Temple 
> of Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is 
> consistent with the Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are 
> aligned with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, 
> Assassins, etc, provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. 
> The broad range of character options so offered are considered 
> desirable in the campaign, and the actions of the individual are 
> considered of more importance than their race, college, or 
> associations.

The point about demons, surely, is that they deceive people into
believing that they are good.

The game doesn't have to make a comment on what is a reasonable way to
pass judgement on a demon. According to doctrine, that has already been
done. And, note, it is doctrine at work, here, not some ruling handed
down by the game. It may be that another player has a different doctrine
to the standard one. That's fine, they should play their character with
respect to that doctrine.

It's not an area that should be of interest to any campaign committee.

A demon is NOT a player character. It is a part of the environment. They
are different from, say, the Duke. There is only one Duke, and he needs
to be pretty much the same whoever he speaks to.

Demons, on the other hard, are not like that at all. Murmur in one game
can be a charming, avuncular chap, on another a ravening beast and on
yet another a eminence grise manipulating things behind a curtain. We
accept this, and our rationalisation is that demons are beyond our
understanding.

We don't think about them in terms of whether or not we have made a
morally sensible judgment, which is what we might do about the Duke. He
is a shared resource. They are not.

>
> (A position I'm sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as 
> someone who plays a very much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for

> an Orc Necromancer of legendary unpleasantness who is nonetheless one 
> of the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who himself adventures 
> with another hero of the DC who is aligned with Seir.)

You're talking about Seidar.

A lot of people examing Seidar, regularly and deeply. This is why the
demand for Dettol has gone up. Nevertheless, no matter what you do to
the little bugger, you can't find any taint of evil in him. Whether or
not he is evil and is merely hiding it is another issue, but rest
assured that many, many people have tried to trip him up and reveal his
true face, but it's never happened.

The reason Turf is Seidar's Sheriff is so he can keep an eye on Seidar.
After all, Turf can summon the rest of us any time it looks like we have
enough proof to put the wretched creature to the flames.

But, sensibly, the reason none of the players have done that is that
he's a pc. As a pc, we try and find ways to work together in an
adventure, and this can be exciting. Andrew helps us out by not being
obvious about Seidar's evil. If he is evil...

>
> With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our 
> campaign base location, we have determined the following response / 
> position for the Duke of Carzala:

This is complete crap, and even if it doesn't come from Greyhawk, this
is what destroyed thag game world.

The campaign committee should be ENCOURAGING religious feuding. The Duke
might have any of a variety of opininons about demonic churches on his
land. His reaction is just a rationalisation.

On the one hand, religious intolerance is fertile ground on which to
base stories in a shared world. On the other hand, it's pretty hard to
believe that a sovereign would allow demonic worship in the open. They
never have done, historically.


>
> 1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.
>
> 2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has 
> more standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more 
> influence currently -- particularly with the number of troops around 
> for the DC -- but their standing is not official).
>
> 3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated 
> Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay 
> taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as gambling or 
> brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses.

> (Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)  Note that not every business 
> within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke 
> views religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree 
> of control over them.
>
> 4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their 
> members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making 
> Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted

> against members of the religion and the punishments available are 
> limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the 
> member is free to quit the religion if they so desire).
>
> 5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as 
> secular crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or 
> someone thinks alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns

> down another religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they 
> will all be charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a 
> religion that sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be 
> prosecuted as an unlicensed abattoir.
>
> 6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some 
> religions, particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are 
> other religions in this category) are just too anti-social or 
> dangerous to allow in the Duchy
> -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.
>
> (We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to 
> make it generally available).
>
> So, where does that leave the Temple of Seir?  Well, Seir, while no 
> naughty puppy is an apparently charming and urbane demon -- which to 
> my mind probably makes him far more insidious and dangerous in the 
> long term than an obvious nutball like Aim -- but does mean that his 
> cult is quite capable of operating within the strictures of society 
> and within the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying their 
> guild fees, their taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems 
> no reason not to allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted

> that the Temple appears closed these days -- apparently in response to

> the number of PoL troops in the city -- for which the Duke would most 
> likely praise the cult for their discretion.
>
> People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and must be expunged 
> should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not violating

> city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public 
> thoroughfare", do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or 
> leave the Temple, and can preach on street-corners (with the 
> appropriate licence) about the evils of Seir, and how his public 
> perception of harmlessness is just a sham, providing they are not 
> "attempting to incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson 
> would be dealt with most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers 
> Guild members, such members could expect to be handed over to the Duke

> by the Guild).

This is not enforceable, really. You cannot make DMs ascribe to this,
and you really oughtn't to have even gone there.

I can run a number of adventures, or cause a number of adventures to be
run, for example, that will change the public image of all demons to the
people of Carzala. The reason it hasn't been done is because up until
the campaign committee stepped in and made this STUPID decision, there
was no particular need to.

>
> I hope that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if 
> there are any parts you'd like to discuss further, or any additional 
> information we can furnish, please just let us know.

This is proof that you can give anything to a committee, and it will
find a way to fix what wasn't broken. It suggests that the more people
involved in a group, the mediocre the results.

I see nothing productive in this ruling. It is the output of a tired
imagination. Bloody pathetic, Martin.
_______________________________________________


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Subject[dq] DQ GM guide 2005
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:29:37 -0800
Hi folks,

We are hoping to have a 2005 edition of the DQ GM Guide updated and printed
with a A3 colour Seagate map, new boats section, [centre fold of Mordin the
Dwarf and Sabrina the Elf] by the Guide meeting :-)

Each copy will be $15.00
If you would like one please put your name on the list at; and bring $15.00
to the guide meeting.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/DQ_GM_Guide_2005_orders

Thanks
Jono


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:43:05 +1300
> I think its important that the guild and the 
> Duke/Seagate are seen as "basically good", as pillars that 
> individual guild members can fall back on, as authorities 
> they are answerable to should they cross certain lines. 

I agree with this bit entirely. But.....

...this is where perception comes in. If the Duke was an adventurer who
has met Ipos he is going to know he is a scum-sucking Demon with no
place in society. However if his only view of Ipos is of a temple where
people burn offerings in the hopes of better luck and a priesthood that
takes in orphans and donates to Civic improvements, why would he care
enough to close it down and risk the wrath of a citizenry who are happy
with their "god"?

The Demons are unlikly to have blood and sacrifice in the Town square on
a Monday night in the middle of Seagate. Although if they did they would
be persecuted and thrown out of town.

Just because the Guild meets these people on a regular basis does not
mean that the general populace do. 

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq-announce] Guild Meeting This Sunday (11th Dec)
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:49:26 +1300 (NZDT)
Just under a week to the guild meeting, time to wrap up the current adventures and plan the next
ones.

I know of 3 adventures to be announced and 2 character initiated adventures that will probably not
be announced.
We'll probably need a couple more adventures.

There are a few rules changes up for voting at the gods meeting, if you intend to attend and vote
at the meeting then please read through the changes so that you are making an informed vote.

Also consider articles and other submissions for the SGT.

Cheers, Stephen.


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Subject[dq] Of Demonic religions...
FromGordon Lewis
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:52:20 +1300
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.and those who would oppose them.

 

I would make some short points:-

 

1.	Please keep in mind the difference between in game truth and morals
& those that you subscribe to in the real world.
2.	If a character (or NPC) expresses a wish to expunge a particular
group from the face of Alusia then they will either get support or not from
the surrounding characters and NPCs. Don't expect it to be easy or
survivable. 
3.	In our 20+ year campaign - the Seagate Guild of Adventurers have, if
not allowed then tolerated guild members to subscribe to any belief they
choose. This is fair - as 'The Guild' has no political / religious agenda.

a.	This has resulted in a fairly good balance of White, Black, Grey and
hatless members.
b.	You should expect resistance from within the membership for any
extreme acts (genocide especially).
c.	In my opinion - if The Guilds tolerance of members' beliefs offends
your character then it is time to consider moving your character to NPC
status and start running very pointed adventures. Just don't expect your NPC
to survive for too long. (I know this is an almost untenable suggestion -
peoples' egos being what they are). 

4.	There are Guild Rules - one of which states that members shall not
break local laws. 

a.	If a religious structure / group exists within the laws of an area
then a guild member may not break that.
b.	Of course there is an option to try and change those laws (good
luck).

 

5.	Demons and Entities of similar power are . well, powerful. That is
how they survive. If a character can contemplate destroying such an entity
with five or six compatriots, in one or a series of adventures - then two
things occur to me.

a.	The Entity is not worth its name and / or
b.	The Character(s) are as powerful as their chosen foes and therefore
(probably) don't fit into our role-playing environment (see point 3c)

 

In conclusion - we are doing this to have fun, beat up the . things that get
in our way and tell tall tales about it. Please don't turn this into
several, character driven Jihads - we get enough of this in real life.

 

Cheers - Gordon.

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&#8230;and those who would oppose =
them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would make some short =
points:-<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Please =
keep in mind
     the difference between <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>in =
game</span></b>
     truth and morals &amp; those that you subscribe to in the real =
world.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If a =
character (or
     NPC) expresses a wish to expunge a particular group from the face =
of
     Alusia then they will either get support or not from the =
surrounding
     characters and NPCs. Don&#8217;t expect it to be easy or =
survivable. <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In our =
20+ year
     campaign &#8211; the Seagate Guild of Adventurers have, if not =
allowed
     then tolerated guild members to subscribe to any belief they =
choose. This
     is fair &#8211; as &#8216;The Guild&#8217; has no political / =
religious agenda.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3Da>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This has =
resulted
      in a fairly good balance of White, Black, Grey and hatless =
members.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You =
should expect
      resistance from within the membership for any extreme acts =
(genocide
      especially).<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In my =
opinion &#8211;
      if The Guilds tolerance of members&#8217; beliefs offends your =
character
      then it is time to consider moving your character to NPC status =
and start
      running very pointed adventures. Just don&#8217;t expect your NPC =
to
      survive for too long. (I know this is an almost untenable =
suggestion &#8211;
      peoples&#8217; egos being what they are). =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 </ol>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>There are =
Guild
     Rules &#8211; one of which states that members shall not break =
local laws.
     <o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3Da>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If a =
religious structure
      / group exists within the laws of an area then a guild member may =
not break
      that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Of =
course there is
      an option to try and change those laws (good =
luck).<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 </ol>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D5 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Demons =
and Entities
     of similar power are &#8230; well, powerful. That is how they =
survive. If
     a character can contemplate destroying such an entity with five or =
six
     compatriots, in one or a series of adventures &#8211; then two =
things
     occur to me&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3Da>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The =
Entity is not
      worth its name and / or<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
  <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The =
Character(s)
      are as powerful as their chosen foes and therefore (probably) =
don&#8217;t
      fit into our role-playing environment (see point =
3c)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 </ol>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>In conclusion &#8211; we are doing this to =
have fun,
beat up the &#8230; things that get in our way and tell tall tales about =
it.
Please don&#8217;t turn this into several, character driven Jihads =
&#8211; we get
enough of this in real life.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cheers &#8211; =
Gordon.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:03:03 +1300
I think we differ on what the perception of the "common folk" is or should be regarding demons. I think the uneducated masses would see all demons as evil and terrible, and would never have met any of them (and be most grateful for the fact). In fact they would be more fanatically opposed to any sniff of demon worshiping in their midst, far more so than a well travelled and jaded adventurer. Look at the Salem witch hunts. They saw demons and devils and witchcraft were their weren't any. Sure, that was somewhat linked to their religion, but its shows that the "common folk" are probably far less tolerant of these things than their educated masters. 

That being said the Duke shouldn't be viewed as the "uneducated masses". He should know demons are evil.

To answer a point Gordon raised, I don't think characters should be free to go burning down buildings in Seagate without coming under the sanction of the law of the Duke. But neither do I think the Duke should have consented to a temple, openly dedicated to the worship of a demon, being erected in his town in the first place. That decision, by whoever made it, is the main bone of contention in my eyes.


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 2:43 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5


> I think its important that the guild and the 
> Duke/Seagate are seen as "basically good", as pillars that 
> individual guild members can fall back on, as authorities 
> they are answerable to should they cross certain lines. 

I agree with this bit entirely. But.....

...this is where perception comes in. If the Duke was an adventurer who
has met Ipos he is going to know he is a scum-sucking Demon with no
place in society. However if his only view of Ipos is of a temple where
people burn offerings in the hopes of better luck and a priesthood that
takes in orphans and donates to Civic improvements, why would he care
enough to close it down and risk the wrath of a citizenry who are happy
with their "god"?

The Demons are unlikly to have blood and sacrifice in the Town square on
a Monday night in the middle of Seagate. Although if they did they would
be persecuted and thrown out of town.

Just because the Guild meets these people on a regular basis does not
mean that the general populace do. 

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] DQ: What happens in Seagate impacts on everyone
FromMichael Parkinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:06:14 +1300
Concerning ...

> > With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our 
> > campaign base location, we have determined the following response / 
> > position for the Duke of Carzala:
> 
> This is complete crap, and even if it doesn't come from Greyhawk, this
> is what destroyed thag game world.
>
> The campaign committee should be ENCOURAGING religious 
> feuding. The Duke
> might have any of a variety of opininons about demonic churches on his
> land. His reaction is just a rationalisation.

   You, whoever you are, are thoroughly WRONG.  The guild & its mechanisms are seated in Seagate.  No individual GM should do anything on this shared ground which FORCES guild-characters out of the game through no fault of their players, or which forces them to take specific action -- if only for the fact that the PLAYER is not always available to go an any particular game or session, even if the CHARACTER is nominally available.

*IF* the GMs as a whole consider a game change desirable, they MUST behave with consideration to other players.  Sometimes the change MAY be necessary becasue of the limitation of the rules, or as a compromise in running a multi-GM game -- e.g., no longer permitting PCs to be greater summoners is one historical example.   Say you have the Duke exile & sieze all the

We can NOT permit open, violent religious warfare within the Guild or seagate for GAME reasons -- the "prime directive" that truly trumps everything else, since

1) It has an unreasonable impact on both the history and potential of existing characters.
2) No GM could GM it adequately for all the characters it would impact on.
3) Forcing someone to play on a specific game, or else loose their character forever, loses not just characters but players
4) If any of the characters survive, then we would need an anti-guild, or mega-guild, or whatever, to enable the DQ PLAYERS to run theior character in a multi-GM world.

> On the one hand, religious intolerance is fertile ground on which to
> base stories in a shared world. 

Yes -- it has been an excellent basis for scenarios ... just be careful how the consequences impact on the OTHER players -- PCs & GMs

>On the other hand, it's pretty hard to
> believe that a sovereign would allow demonic worship in the open. They
> never have done, historically.

Depends on what you call a demon & not a god.  Were the historical mayans demon-worshipers?  Is/Was Baal a demon?  or Marduk?  To my knowledge, no historic sovereign has allowed orcs or elves in the open either.   Are you on a email list concerned with historical re-enactments or with a multi-GM, multi-player Fantasy game? 

Fantasy CAN include tweaked, simplfied extracts from history -- but the over-riding requirement is that we have a viable, preferable enjoyable, *game*


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:10:49 +1300
> I think we differ on what the perception of the "common folk" 
> is or should be regarding demons. I think the uneducated 
> masses would see all demons as evil and terrible, and would 
> never have met any of them (and be most grateful for the 
> fact). In fact they would be more fanatically opposed to any 
> sniff of demon worshiping in their midst, far more so than a 
> well travelled and jaded adventurer. Look at the Salem witch 
> hunts. They saw demons and devils and witchcraft were their 
> weren't any. Sure, that was somewhat linked to their 
> religion, but its shows that the "common folk" are probably 
> far less tolerant of these things than their educated masters. 

Yep, and that's exactly the kind of perception I personally do not want
to see in DQ. The which hunts were a product of Monotheism. I would
prefer to see a polytheistic world with lots of scope for Gods and the
Powers. Like Father Rowans Chantres and the Church of the Knob God, all
these things add colour to the world and add to it. So I prefer to see
Demons, Angels and Gods of all types worshipped openly in the same way
as many of the fantasy worlds people have created. 

There is still room for fanatasism and disagreement and the PoD being
Evil scumbags and some of them being tiny Cults, but the greater the
range of prescence the greater the range of stories that can come from
them. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromClare Baldock
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:13:08 +1300
Let me do some thinking out loud.

1, Demons are basically evil. PoL are basically good. Other gods fit in 
somewhere on that spectrum depending on their doctrines.

2. There has been a long standing situation where Guild members can 
worship/pact to any of the above, and not get burned at the stake just 
for walking down the street in Seagate. Any solution to this problem 
needs imho to maintain this.

3. I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open demon 
worship in his lands. This doesn't mean he needs to as a matter of 
policy hunt down underground demon worshipping cults, but if children 
start disappearing off the streets the perpetrators should be hunted 
down and dealt with. If a temple to a demon sets up in broad daylight 
so-to-speak it should be defiled and its priests run out of town.

4. I believe that the current situation where the PoLers seem in direct 
opposition to much of the guild is not good, but that is a different 
kettle of fish from the above points.

my ideas, not necessarily those of my characters who all have slightly 
different takes on this issue,

cheers,

clare


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:18:36 +1300
Clare said:

" I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open demon 
worship in his lands."

I agree. Thats it in a nutshell really.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:28:25 +1300
> " I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open demon 
> worship in his lands."
> 
> I agree. Thats it in a nutshell really.

My point is in a polytheistic society the only way to know it is a Demon
and not a God is by 

1. Meeting the Demon.
2. The actions of the worshippers. 

*IF* a temple is setup to a deity the only way to tell the nature of the
deity is through the worshippers. If as in Clares example children go
missing and blood trickles into the streets in front of the temple as
people are sacrificed then YES, they get run out of town. 

But is a church is set up, like any other and helps feed the sick, looks
after orphans (without them going missing) etc, why would they get
chased out. Evil can be insidious and doesn't nessesarily have to appear
evil. 

The temple to Sier was labled so that players know what it is, in a
theoretical Seagate it is probably a temple to Gods of Luck and Chance,
surviving next to a Temple of Fornicators. 

The only way we know it is a Demon is that people have met him or his
avatars, and if the Duke and townspeople havn't then how do they know?

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromClare Baldock
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:37:59 +1300
On 05/12/2005, at 15:28, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

> The only way we know it is a Demon is that people have met him or his
> avatars, and if the Duke and townspeople havn't then how do they know?

Well assuming the name of Seir is invoked (otherwise how do even we in 
the Guild know) then why on earth would the Duke not know? Are 
adventurers the only people on Alusia who know the names of the 72? Are 
adventurers the only ones with Philosophy of religions? Why do 
adventurers know who Seir is and no-one else? We aren't that special 
surely.

cheers,

clare


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromWilliam Dymock
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:48:07 +1300

I agree with this bit entirely. But.....

...this is where perception comes in. If the Duke was an adventurer who
has met Ipos he is going to know he is a scum-sucking Demon with no
place in society. However if his only view of Ipos is of a temple where
people burn offerings in the hopes of better luck and a priesthood that
takes in orphans and donates to Civic improvements, why would he care
enough to close it down and risk the wrath of a citizenry who are happy
with their "god"?

The Demons are unlikly to have blood and sacrifice in the Town square on
a Monday night in the middle of Seagate. Although if they did they would
be persecuted and thrown out of town.

Just because the Guild meets these people on a regular basis does not
mean that the general populace do.

Mandos
/s


I agree. Just because you, the player can crack open a GM's guide or go
online and find Sier, Murmur and Ipos in the catergory marked 'Demon'
doesn't mean your character can. And this applies to NPCs as well. Even
being a Namer doesn't really help. The GTN for demons isn't 'demon' but
'Gkl;jef*kjser' (or something) which they translate as 'demon'. The Drow
presumably translate it as something else, as do the Erelaine.

The PoDies and PoLies engage in a cold war for very good reasons. But think
on this.

How has Sier been recently (8 years) characterised?
Why would he want to establish an open temple in Seagate?
He knows it is five miles from a collection of powerful and often hostile
beings?
Do you really think he's stupid?

William
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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4b
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:41:11 +1300 (NZDT)
I am 100% in support of the campaign committee on this.
I believe that they have laid out a structure that allows the characters to persue their own
agendas without trampeling all over the roleplaying of others.

I have always considered Duke Leto to be a cany and pragmatic ruler of a small Barony/Duchy on the
edge of civilised lands who hosts a guild of powerful nutters and manages to profit from it.
Most nobles would be threatened by the guild or would try to use the guild as a tool to advance
their own agenda.
I think that this balanced view of the powers/gods/... shows similar pragmatism, allowing the
religions limited scope within the duchy provided that they offer him something and toe the line.

The hardliners for the POLs are free to view the world in black and white, us and them, and all
PoDs are evil.  This is a choice they are making and this will sometimes put them in conflict with
the local law and with other guild members.
If the world is changed to ratify their world-view as the truth then those characters are
diminished.  They are no longer making sacrifices and tough calls for their beliefs, they are now
taking the easy path of doing what is clearly defined as right.

As with any extreme/hardline character they will sooner or later come to a point where their
beliefs conflict with the mercenary/lawful/neutral position of the guild and they will need to
make a choice which is more important, their belief or their guild membership.

The moderate characters have a longer potential playing life, the extremists make it more
interesting.

Cheers, Stephen.

> We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee meeting, and considered
> it from the point of view of what is the best approach that will offer the broadest and most
> flexible range of
> roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as possible to the established
> campaign history.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMartin Dickson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:45:07 +1300
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On 12/5/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
> The temple to Sier was labled so that players know what it is, in a
> theoretical Seagate it is probably a temple to Gods of Luck and Chance,
> surviving next to a Temple of Fornicators.


Well, since the appearance of things seems to be important to people, would
the issue be sufficiently resolved if the Temple of Seir (the known demon)
was renamed (to use that wonderful literary cryptographic code) to the
Temple of the "demi-god" Ries, patron of gamblers?

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On 12/5/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
The temple to Sier was labled so that players know what it is, in a<br>theo=
retical Seagate it is probably a temple to Gods of Luck and Chance,<br>surv=
iving next to a Temple of Fornicators.</blockquote><div><br>Well, since the=
 appearance of things seems to be important to people, would the issue be s=
ufficiently resolved if the Temple of Seir (the known demon) was renamed (t=
o use that wonderful literary cryptographic code) to the Temple of the &quo=
t;demi-god&quot;
Ries, patron of gamblers?<br></div></div><br>

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Subject[dq] Demon & PoL temples in Seagate
FromMichael Parkinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:54:15 +1300
I quite agree with Mandos' point.

> My point is in a polytheistic society the only way to know it 
> is a Demon
> and not a God is by 
> 
> 1. Meeting the Demon.
> 2. The actions of the worshippers. 

Point #2 is going to be very important.  Clearly historical analogies (such as the wholesale importation & adoption of eastern cults by the Romans) are limited ... but worshippers who restrict mutilations to themselves are easily tolerated  -- it the sociopaths & subversives who will be oppressed.   Money & stability will be key factors in the Dukes tolerance of any religion in Seagate.

There are several ways for a cult to be established on the High street -- even more in a more run-down section of town.  For example ... what if a a well-off devotee of a Power wants to give visible thanks  & support to his "patron"?  Of course, the cult will be promptly be shut down, if there are vested interests against it  (e.g. a close friend of the Duke, &/or heavily bribed councillors,  or someone who pays the Duke a lot of taxes & gifts).

Conversely, if ANY cult is seen as having relieved the city from seige & unspeakable, but visible, horror [e.g. Black Circle], it will have popular support & the Duke would be wary of open suppression or criticism.   I expect to see much Michaeline & PoL building in the next few months -- but were any other hero(es) of the "Relief of Seagate" to endorse a non-PoL cult and follow it up with acts of popular (& private) generosity then I cannot see the Duke suppressing ANY law-abiding, tax-generating institution associated with that cult.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 15:52:44 +1300
Mandos said:

"The temple to Sier was labled so that players know what it is, in a
theoretical Seagate it is probably a temple to Gods of Luck and Chance,
surviving next to a Temple of Fornicators. "

I see, now we are going somewhere else. You are now saying it isnt openly worshiping a known demon? That the Duke can be (and has been) tricked into allowing the temple because he thinks it is something other than it is? Well if thats the case all that Turf et al. need to do is to go and tell the Duke what it the temple/Seir really is (provide some eveidence as to the true demonic nature if Seir), and the Duke will tear the temple down himself. Problem solved.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Demon & PoL temples in Seagate
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:06:15 +1300
> Conversely, if ANY cult is seen as having relieved the city 
> from seige & unspeakable, but visible, horror [e.g. Black 
> Circle], it will have popular support & the Duke would be 
> wary of open suppression or criticism.   I expect to see much 
> Michaeline & PoL building in the next few months -- but were 
> any other hero(es) of the "Relief of Seagate" to endorse a 
> non-PoL cult and follow it up with acts of popular (& 
> private) generosity then I cannot see the Duke suppressing 
> ANY law-abiding, tax-generating institution associated with that cult.

Which is what has occoured so far in the history of the Temple. 

It should be noted the temple has been there for 8-10 years without
anyone complaining :-)

The temple was closed when the DC caused the PoL to flood into town.

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] List membership?
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:05:39 -0800
Is Jim or Terry on this list please?

Jono


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Subject[dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSally and Brent Jackson
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 16:18:03 +1300
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<html>
<br>
It seems to me that the change of a montheistic Seagate to a polytheistic
society was thought to be a minor tweak by the instigators/campaign
comittee.&nbsp; However I think it is a major change of flavour of the
game, which many of us are not happy about. <br>
I like DQ because of its tolkein-fantasy-flavour - where the 'church' are
the good guys.&nbsp; That's just part of what the medeivel/fantasy is
(and please don't start quoting back to me other authors who do use
poletheism). Heathen gods / PODies are known to exist but are not
mainstream, and are underground cults in civilised parts of the
world.&nbsp; That's the way it has been, and I haven't see any reason in
the posts to change it.<br>
<br>
IMO<br>
Sally <br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz on behalf of Mandos Mitchinson<br>
Sent: Mon 05/12/2005 15:28<br>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
Subject: Re: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5<br>
<br>
&gt; &quot; I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open
demon<br>
&gt; worship in his lands.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree. Thats it in a nutshell really.<br>
<br>
My point is in a polytheistic society the only way to know it is a
Demon<br>
and not a God is by<br>
<br>
1. Meeting the Demon.<br>
2. The actions of the worshippers.<br>
<br>
*IF* a temple is setup to a deity the only way to tell the nature of
the<br>
deity is through the worshippers. If as in Clares example children
go<br>
missing and blood trickles into the streets in front of the temple
as<br>
people are sacrificed then YES, they get run out of town.<br>
<br>
But is a church is set up, like any other and helps feed the sick,
looks<br>
after orphans (without them going missing) etc, why would they get<br>
chased out. Evil can be insidious and doesn't nessesarily have to
appear<br>
evil.<br>
<br>
The temple to Sier was labled so that players know what it is, in a<br>
theoretical Seagate it is probably a temple to Gods of Luck and
Chance,<br>
surviving next to a Temple of Fornicators.<br>
<br>
The only way we know it is a Demon is that people have met him or
his<br>
avatars, and if the Duke and townspeople havn't then how do they
know?<br>
<br>
Mandos<br>
/s<br>
<br>
<br>
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Subject[dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:18:28 +1300
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I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about
we say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to
practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a
number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be
exterminated on sight."
=20
Then, either=20
=20
(a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons are reasonable in
their own version, or=20
(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark
gods according to the Duke.
=20
One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir,
Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in Seagate. I think that
person will need to start keeping their head down in town, but it
shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that character.
=20
Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a
weaselling out of the argument?
=20
Andrew

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I know =
no one likes=20
to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we say something =
like "The=20
Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise in Seagate, as long =
as they=20
uphold local laws. There are a number of unreasonable religions (Aim, =
Asmoday,=20
...). These will be exterminated on sight."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Then, =
either=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(a) we =
say that each=20
GM maintains what gods/demons&nbsp;are reasonable in their own version, =
or=20
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(b) we =
have a=20
blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods according =
to the=20
Duke.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One =
problem with=20
this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres or Michael) =
is=20
banned from practising in&nbsp;Seagate. I think that person will need to =
start=20
keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them from =
roleplaying=20
that character.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Would =
this proposal=20
irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a weaselling out of the =

argument?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>
=00
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SubjectRe: [dq] List membership?
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:19:18 +1300
Jim apparantly can't post to the list, so may well not be able to
receive either. Good call.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 1:06 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] List membership?



Is Jim or Terry on this list please?

Jono


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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:26:03 +1300
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The solution would seem to me to be for the gm(s) who want this overt =
Temple to a Demon to exist, for their own story reasons, to simply shift =
it out of Seagate/Cazala to some other town/city (Sanctuary for =
example?). Is there an important story reason as to why this temple has =
to be in Seagate?  Or is this temple being used as a tool to try to =
force the shift to polytheism in the campaign?

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise


I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about =
we say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to =
practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a =
number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be =
exterminated on sight."
=20
Then, either=20
=20
(a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons are reasonable in =
their own version, or=20
(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark =
gods according to the Duke.
=20
One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, =
Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in Seagate. I think that =
person will need to start keeping their head down in town, but it =
shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that character.
=20
Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a =
weaselling out of the argument?
=20
Andrew


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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D679132003-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
solution would seem to me to be for the gm(s) who want this =
overt&nbsp;Temple to=20
a Demon&nbsp;to&nbsp;exist, for their own story reasons, to simply shift =
it out=20
of Seagate/Cazala to some other town/city (Sanctuary for example?). Is =
there an=20
important story reason&nbsp;as to why this temple has to be in =
Seagate?&nbsp; Or=20
is this temple being used as a tool to try to force the shift to =
polytheism in=20
the campaign?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 December 2005 4:18 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Demonic Temple=20
  Compromise<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
know no one=20
  likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we say =
something=20
  like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise in =
Seagate, as=20
  long as they uphold local laws. There are a number of unreasonable =
religions=20
  (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be exterminated on =
sight."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Then, either=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(a) =
we say that=20
  each GM maintains what gods/demons&nbsp;are reasonable in their own =
version,=20
  or </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(b) =
we have a=20
  blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods according =
to the=20
  Duke.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One =
problem with=20
  this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres or =
Michael) is=20
  banned from practising in&nbsp;Seagate. I think that person will need =
to start=20
  keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them from =
roleplaying=20
  that character.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Would this=20
  proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a weaselling =
out of=20
  the argument?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:27:38 -0800
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Hi all,

I have been advised that Jim can not post to the list so I am guessing that
he may not be able to read the list either.
Given this and that some of the main 'colourfull feed-back' came from what I
understand to be Jim, and since it was said off the list, and I take it that
it was ment as a private email (even if colourfull) to the commitee, I do
not think I wish to comment at the moment.

Jonathan Bean




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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi=20
all,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I have=20
been advised that Jim can not post to the list so I am guessing that he =
may not=20
be able to read the list either.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Given=20
this and that some of the main 'colourfull feed-back' came from what I=20
understand to be Jim,&nbsp;and since it was said off the list, and I =
take it=20
that it was ment as&nbsp;a private email (even if colourfull) to the =
commitee, I=20
do not think I wish to comment at the moment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
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size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromIan Hasell
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:47:21 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Having adventured to far off places where Demon worshipping temples were =
well disguised as other forms of worship, it is damn easy for Demons to =
sneak their way into society. The burn victims at the altar type are =
always going to have issues starting up in new towns without a degree of =
fear and oppression to keep the locals in line. The "friendly" demons =
such as Seir are very gifted at pretending to nice, generous and public =
spirited. To achieve their totally self centered goals they are quite =
capable of donating large sums of cash to the nobles, building =
orphanages and conducting themselves like good citizens. It took us =
quite a bit of investigating to discover the reality behind the =
fa=E7ade. This was because the five demon cults in town were providing =
their worshippers with a lot of cash, fun, luck and worldly pleasures. =
Pity about the whole spending afterlife in hell problem.

Demons may well be evil but they have a far better batch of spin-doctors =
than the PoL. After all it is their job to corrupt people.=20

There are a heap of pacted adventurers. Those I have come across are all =
decent people who do a lot of good and I haven't seen any human =
sacrificing going on. They have traded some new powers, spells and =
abilities for eternal damnation. Others have pacted to the PoL and in =
exchange for less nifty powers get eternal bliss.=20

The visibility of the PoL and the PoD in any particular place is a =
political issue. Both sides will provide incentives to their followers. =
The PoD are more subtle at it.

I have to agree that an openly Demonic temple in Seagate wouldn't fit in =
with our game world. However, Seir is such a charming bastard that he =
has probably got enough friends in high places to be tolerated. I would =
imagine he has slowly insinuated his followers into the town to the =
point where he could get a temple opened to "a God of Luck and =
Adventurers". The Guild (being crafty adventurers) believes that it is =
really Seir in disguise (because half the Guild can be seen sneaking in =
there after each Guild meeting), but until they start sacrificing people =
why would it get closed down? I am sure there are many of the more =
puritanical members of the PoL that want the Nob God's temple burnt down =
as well.=20

In any event if you burn it down, he will just open a new one up =
somewhere else in town. Most demons are sneaky.

IMHO=20

Ian H


________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of =
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise


The solution would seem to me to be for the gm(s) who want this overt =
Temple to a Demon to exist, for their own story reasons, to simply shift =
it out of Seagate/Cazala to some other town/city (Sanctuary for =
example?). Is there an important story reason as to why this temple has =
to be in Seagate?  Or is this temple being used as a tool to try to =
force the shift to polytheism in the campaign?

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
	Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:18 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
=09
=09
	I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about =
we say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to =
practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a =
number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be =
exterminated on sight."
	=20
	Then, either=20
	=20
	(a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons are reasonable in =
their own version, or=20
	(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark =
gods according to the Duke.
	=20
	One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, =
Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in Seagate. I think that =
person will need to start keeping their head down in town, but it =
shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that character.
	=20
	Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a =
weaselling out of the argument?
	=20
	Andrew


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Having adventured to far off places where =
Demon=20
worshipping temples were well disguised as other forms of worship, it is =
damn=20
easy for Demons to sneak their way into society. The burn victims at the =
altar=20
type are always going to have issues starting up in new towns without a =
degree=20
of fear and oppression to keep the locals in line. The "friendly" demons =
such as=20
Seir are very gifted at pretending to nice, generous and public =
spirited. To=20
achieve their totally self centered goals they are quite capable of =
donating=20
large sums of cash to the nobles, building orphanages and conducting =
themselves=20
like good citizens. It took us quite a bit of investigating to discover =
the=20
reality behind the fa=E7ade. This was because the five demon cults in =
town were=20
providing their worshippers with a lot of cash, fun, luck and worldly =
pleasures.=20
Pity about the whole spending afterlife in hell problem.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Demons may well be evil but they have a =
far better=20
batch of spin-doctors than the PoL. After all it is their job to corrupt =
people.=20
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are a heap of pacted adventurers. =
Those I have=20
come across are all decent people who do a lot of good and I haven't =
seen any=20
human sacrificing going on. They have traded some new powers, spells and =

abilities for eternal damnation. Others have pacted to the PoL and in =
exchange=20
for less nifty powers get eternal bliss. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The visibility of the PoL and the PoD in =
any=20
particular place is a political issue. Both sides will provide =
incentives to=20
their followers. The PoD are more subtle at it.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>I have to agree that an openly =
Demonic temple=20
in Seagate wouldn't fit in with our game world. However, Seir is such a =
charming=20
bastard that he has probably got enough friends in high places to be =
tolerated.=20
I would imagine he has slowly insinuated his followers into the town to =
the=20
point where he could get a temple opened to "a God of Luck and=20
Adventurers".&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D453002703-05122005>The Guild =
</SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D453002703-05122005>(being crafty adventurers) =
</SPAN>believe<SPAN=20
class=3D453002703-05122005>s</SPAN> that it is really Seir in =
disguise<SPAN=20
class=3D453002703-05122005> (because half the Guild can be seen sneaking =
in there=20
after each Guild meeting)</SPAN>, but until they start sacrificing =
people why=20
would it get closed down<SPAN class=3D453002703-05122005>? I am sure =
there are=20
many of the more puritanical members of the PoL that want the Nob God's =
temple=20
burnt down as well. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D453002703-05122005>In any =
event if you=20
burn it down, he will just open a new one up somewhere else in town. =
Most demons=20
are sneaky.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D453002703-05122005>IMHO=20
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D453002703-05122005>Ian=20
H</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 December 2005 4:26 =

p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Demonic =
Temple=20
Compromise<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D679132003-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>The=20
solution would seem to me to be for the gm(s) who want this =
overt&nbsp;Temple to=20
a Demon&nbsp;to&nbsp;exist, for their own story reasons, to simply shift =
it out=20
of Seagate/Cazala to some other town/city (Sanctuary for example?). Is =
there an=20
important story reason&nbsp;as to why this temple has to be in =
Seagate?&nbsp; Or=20
is this temple being used as a tool to try to force the shift to =
polytheism in=20
the campaign?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 December 2005 4:18 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Demonic Temple=20
  Compromise<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I =
know no one=20
  likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we say =
something=20
  like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise in =
Seagate, as=20
  long as they uphold local laws. There are a number of unreasonable =
religions=20
  (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be exterminated on =
sight."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Then, either=20
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(a) =
we say that=20
  each GM maintains what gods/demons&nbsp;are reasonable in their own =
version,=20
  or </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>(b) =
we have a=20
  blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods according =
to the=20
  Duke.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One =
problem with=20
  this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres or =
Michael) is=20
  banned from practising in&nbsp;Seagate. I think that person will need =
to start=20
  keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them from =
roleplaying=20
  that character.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Would this=20
  proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a weaselling =
out of=20
  the argument?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D199021203-05122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromMartin Dickson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:38:36 +1300
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On 12/5/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Is there an important story reason as to why this temple has to be in
> Seagate?
>

Side note: it has been present for 8+ years.

  Or is this temple being used as a tool to try to force the shift to
> polytheism in the campaign?
>

Shift to polytheism?  That would imply that the campaign has been otherwise
in past, which is not the case.

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On 12/5/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.si=
g.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smt=
p.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gma=
il_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">






<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Is there an=20
important story reason&nbsp;as to why this temple has to be in Seagate?</fo=
nt></span></div></blockquote><div><br>Side note: it has been present for 8+=
 years. <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-lef=
t: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1=
ex;">
<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">&nbsp; Or=20
is this temple being used as a tool to try to force the shift to polytheism=
 in=20
the campaign?</font></span></div></blockquote><div><br>Shift to polytheism?=
&nbsp; That would imply that the campaign has been otherwise in past, which=
 is not the case.<br></div></div><br>

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Subject[dq] Campaign Commitee
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:33:13 -0800
Hi all,

As far as my personal views of the Campaign Commitee goes;

I am in favour of a Campaign Commitee, that -
* Help and assist GMs with running less episodic adventures.
* Assist in training of new GMs
* Product game content.
* Flesh out multi-GM NPCs.
* Work on Multi-GM tools and adds.

Jono


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Subject[dq] =?US-ASCII?B?UmU6IFtkcV0gVGhlIHRyZWF0bWVudCBvZiBEZW1vbiB0ZW1wbGVzIGluIFNlYWdhdGUgNQ==?=
From=?US-ASCII?B?Q29zbW8=?=
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 16:40:23 +1300
On Mon Dec  5 15:13 , Clare Baldock <clare@orcon.net.nz> sent:

>Let me do some thinking out loud.

Be our guest.  Points 1 ("Demons = evil") & 2 ("Adventures = variable in options 
about Demons in general and about Point 1 in particular") definitely appear be some 
of the foundations of the discussion.

>3. I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open demon 
>worship in his lands. This doesn't mean he needs to as a matter of 
>policy hunt down underground demon worshipping cults, but if children 
>start disappearing off the streets the perpetrators should be hunted 
>down and dealt with. If a temple to a demon sets up in broad daylight 
>so-to-speak it should be defiled and its priests run out of town.

The interesting point is there has been references to the Temple of Seir in Seagate 
for about 4 years now.  His success at recruiting the normally cynical and wary Guild 
members appears to have been parlayed into adherants in the general public and I've 
personally seen a fair number of characters visit to ask him questions, engage him as 
a travel agent, or to look for loose change.  Even the esteemed Engleton and co have 
availed themselves of his willing assistance.

The Duke (and the Guild?) tolerating this might seem incongruous, but suddenly 
changing his mind on the behest of a Guild member would also seem pretty strange.  
The campaign committee tried to couch the response the established events and let the 
players/characters? know that overtly breaking his laws, even in a worthy cause, 
would be punished.  Some seem to accept that as challange to be circumspect and 
clever and others took it as an assault on their liberty.

>4. I believe that the current situation where the PoLers seem in direct 
>opposition to much of the guild is not good, but that is a different 
>kettle of fish from the above points.

I'm not so certain that it's a different syndrome, but it certainly does increase 
tensions and make mixing these elements of the game ( PoL & everyone else) 
difficult.  I'd like to see some more agreeable PoL followers around.  Not Demon-
friendly, to be sure, but just less psychotically suspicous.

>my ideas, not necessarily those of my characters who all have slightly 
>different takes on this issue,

I have a character who pacted to Seir on desperate ground (in a "dark place" after a 
heroic (?) charge against the minions of two seventy foot Avatars of "nasty" demons, 
with a strong suspicion that a blackballed Guild member was currently posessing his 
body) when he panicked and Seir ofter him an escape.  At a price.

He spent years resenting it, until the recent Inquisition-esque tactics of some arms 
of the United Church have made him reconsider who the "bad guys" really are.  The 
arbitrary destruction of people who he's come to consider as normal joes like himself 
will be a very last straw.


Wooooo.  Go the Light.



ben


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SubjectRe: [dq] List membership?
FromStephen Martin
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:46:30 +1300 (NZDT)
The list server rules require that the email address you are posting from must be subscribed to
the list.  This is to stop/reduce the spam we were starting to get.  And is only really a pain for
those of us foolish enough to have and use multiple email addresses.


DSL AK said:
> Jim apparantly can't post to the list, so may well not be able to
> receive either. Good call.
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 1:06 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] List membership?
>
>
>
> Is Jim or Terry on this list please?
>
> Jono
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMartin Dickson
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:48:21 +1300
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On 12/5/05, Sally and Brent Jackson <salient@kc.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> It seems to me that the change of a montheistic Seagate to a polytheistic
> society was thought to be a minor tweak by the instigators/campaign
> comittee.


What monotheistic society?  Carzala has never had an official religion.  It
has tolerated in past various "pagan" religions along with the PoL.  The
temple of the "One Horned God" aka the "Knob God" is right next door to
Seir's place and no-one appears up in arms over that.

The problem seems to be around an openly advertised temple to a known demon=
.

Heathen gods / PODies are known to exist but are not mainstream, and are
> underground cults in civilised parts of the world.


PoDies aside, your perception of religion in DQ and mine appear to be quite
different. Temples to Odin and Thor are common in the northlands, not to
mention the Street of Temples in Sanctuary, add in old elven gods, a number
of other pantheons that GMs have used, and it's very hard to see DQ as
anything other than fully polytheistic.

Regards,
Martin

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On 12/5/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Sally and Brent Jackson</b> &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:salient@kc.net.nz">salient@kc.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">

<br>
It seems to me that the change of a montheistic Seagate to a polytheistic
society was thought to be a minor tweak by the instigators/campaign
comittee.</blockquote><div><br>What monotheistic society?&nbsp; Carzala has=
 never had an official religion.&nbsp; It has tolerated in past various &qu=
ot;pagan&quot; religions along with the PoL.&nbsp; The temple of the &quot;=
One Horned God&quot; aka the &quot;Knob God&quot; is right next door to Sei=
r's place and no-one appears up in arms over that.
<br><br>The problem seems to be around an openly advertised temple to a kno=
wn demon.<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: =
1ex;">

Heathen gods / PODies are known to exist but are not
mainstream, and are underground cults in civilised parts of the
world.</blockquote><div><br>PoDies aside, your perception of religion in DQ=
 and mine appear to be quite different. Temples to Odin and Thor are common=
 in the northlands, not to mention the Street of Temples in Sanctuary, add =
in old elven gods, a number of other pantheons that GMs have used, and it's=
 very hard to see DQ as anything other than fully polytheistic.
<br><br>Regards,<br>Martin<br></div><br><div><br><br><br></div></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Campaign Commitee
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:43:18 -0800
I think that the Campaign Committee is doing a fine job and I do not wish to
play with fire.
Good luck.

Jono Bean

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:33 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Campaign Commitee


Hi all,

As far as my personal views of the Campaign Commitee goes;

I am in favour of a Campaign Commitee, that -
* Help and assist GMs with running less episodic adventures.
* Assist in training of new GMs
* Product game content.
* Flesh out multi-GM NPCs.
* Work on Multi-GM tools and adds.

Jono


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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromBernard Hoggins
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 14:50:58 +1100 (EST)
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That sounds a reasonable idea, I'd say on the proviso that it doesn't suddenly declare any currently obviously acceptable religions unreasonable(i.e. Seir, Michael).  And for all those saying Seir is evil...., why not try converting Seir.  Given the nature of the powers....., what is to stop Seir slowly turning to the side of Light over the next 20,000 years.
   
  And on the post of an earlier E-mail, I quite agree with keeping the neutrality of Seagate.  We are a border duchy, hardly civilized in some area's.  For those that want heavily interlinked family politics and Church of Light civilization they only need to go a couple of hundred miles north.  Not exactly a long distance for a PC to travel from their home to the guild for a guild meeting if they find living in the same town as a temple to Seir unpleasant.
   
  Bernard

"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
      I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be exterminated on sight."
   
  Then, either 
   
  (a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons are reasonable in their own version, or 
  (b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods according to the Duke.
   
  One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in Seagate. I think that person will need to start keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that character.
   
  Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a weaselling out of the argument?
   
  Andrew


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
		
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
  The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.
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<DIV>That sounds a reasonable idea, I'd say on the proviso that it doesn't suddenly declare any currently obviously acceptable religions unreasonable(i.e. Seir, Michael).&nbsp; And for all those saying Seir is evil...., why not try converting Seir.&nbsp; Given the nature of the powers....., what is to stop Seir slowly turning to the side of Light over the next 20,000 years.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>And on the post of an earlier E-mail, I quite agree with keeping the neutrality of Seagate.&nbsp; We are a border duchy, hardly civilized in some area's.&nbsp; For those that want heavily interlinked family politics and Church of Light civilization they only need to go a couple of hundred miles north.&nbsp; Not exactly a long distance for a PC to travel from their home&nbsp;to the guild for a guild meeting if they find living in the same town as a temple to Seir unpleasant.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Bernard<BR><BR><B><I>"Andrew Withy (DSL AK)"
 &lt;AndrewW@datacom.co.nz&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">  <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=GENERATOR>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be exterminated on sight."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Then, either </FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>(a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons&nbsp;are reasonable in
 their own version, or </FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods according to the Duke.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in&nbsp;Seagate. I think that person will need to start keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that character.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a weaselling out of the argument?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial
 size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><SPAN class=199021203-05122005><FONT face=Arial size=2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>
		<hr size=1>Do you Yahoo!?<br> 
<a 
href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail/au/tag/newmovies/**http%3A%2F%2Fau.movies.yahoo.com%2F"> 
The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.</a>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Demon & PoL temples in Seagate
FromJacqui Smith
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 17:06:04 +1300
At 16:06 5/12/05, you wrote:
>It should be noted the temple has been there for 8-10 years without
>anyone complaining

Have you considered the possibility that nobody complained because the GM 
who put the House of Seir in Seagate didn't sufficiently publicise this? Or 
discuss it publicly before putting it in place?

Which would have been a good idea. As far as I was concerned if a player 
had said they were going to visit the Church of Seir in one of my games - 
and no-one has in all those 8-10 years - I would have said "What church of 
Seir?"

People do not like being presented with a fait accompli... which rather 
explains the current reaction, does it not?

(And my compromise would be that the House of Seir is not a dedicated 
edifice, but more likely a simple shrine above a gambling den, and thus not 
especially public... as for the Church of the One-horned God.... isn't that 
a whorehouse like any number of others in Seagate?)

Jacqui


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SubjectRe: [dq] List membership?
FromStruan Judd
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 16:56:52 +1300
And it is possible (though not immediately straightforward) to inform
the server of other email addresses that you may wish to post from
without having emails sent to those "alternate" addresses.

Further discussion of the technical details of this should be taken off list.

TTFN, Struan


On 12/5/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
> The list server rules require that the email address you are posting from must be subscribed to
> the list.  This is to stop/reduce the spam we were starting to get.  And is only really a pain for
> those of us foolish enough to have and use multiple email addresses.
>
>
> DSL AK said:
> > Jim apparantly can't post to the list, so may well not be able to
> > receive either. Good call.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
> > Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 1:06 p.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] List membership?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is Jim or Terry on this list please?
> >
> > Jono
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4b
FromHelen Saggers
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 17:20:44 +1300
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MessageI too support the campaign committees on this, the =
response/position is a reasonable one to take in a city/ duchy whose =
major wealth is in trade.=20
Just because the Area of western kingdom has produced and deified or =
demonized, the PoL or PoD, doesn't mean that these are the only ones on =
the plane. We also have historically two pantheons of gods, that are in =
common use, plus assorted others used by individual GMs. If religious =
tolerance was not a desired social policy in Seagate, then a few words =
in the Players or GMs guide or some other resource should have been =
included long ago, and those of unsanctioned religions could have formed =
underground cults or whatever.
Some religions except animal sacrifice, some hold all life sacred, some =
have long periods of abstinence, others except that the taking drugs =
brings them closer to god, mummification of the dead, vs. burial or =
cremation, grave goods for the after life, offerings to the ancestors, =
worshiping graven images who is right or wrong is a matter of which =
faith you belong to.=20
As long as the followers of a religious order keep Ducal law and don't =
get caught performing illegal acts, (assuming they gave someone reason =
to suspect and lets face it some of these PoL followers will be scrying =
on Seirs temple for such or trying to) then if they secretly eat the =
hearts of their dead relatives as part of the funeral rites who it to =
know or care.

Helen

With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our =
campaign base location, we have determined the following response / =
position for the Duke of Carzala:

1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.

2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more =
standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence =
currently -- particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- =
but their standing is not official).

3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated =
Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay =
taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as gambling or =
brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses. =
(Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)  Note that not every business =
within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views =
religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree of =
control over them.

4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their =
members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making =
Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted =
against members of the religion and the punishments available are =
limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the =
member is free to quit the religion if they so desire).

5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as secular =
crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or someone thinks =
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns down another =
religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they will all be =
charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion that =
sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an =
unlicensed abattoir.

6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some religions, =
particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are other religions =
in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous to allow in the =
Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.

(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to =
make it generally available).

Kind Regards,
Martin (on behalf of the Campaign Committee)

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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I too support the campaign committees =
on this, the=20
response/position is a reasonable one to take in a city/ duchy whose =
major=20
wealth is in trade. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just because&nbsp;the Area&nbsp;of =
western kingdom=20
has produced and deified or demonized, the PoL or PoD, doesn't mean=20
that&nbsp;these are the only ones on the plane. We also have =
historically two=20
pantheons of gods, that are in common use, plus assorted others used by=20
individual GMs. If religious tolerance was not a desired social policy =
in=20
Seagate, then a few words in the Players or GMs guide or some other=20
resource&nbsp;should have been included long ago, and those of =
unsanctioned=20
religions could have formed underground cults or whatever.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Some religions except animal sacrifice, =
some hold=20
all life sacred, some have long periods of abstinence, others except =
that the=20
taking drugs brings them closer to god, mummification of the dead, vs. =
burial or=20
cremation, grave goods for the after life, offerings to the ancestors,=20
worshiping graven images who is right or wrong is a matter of which =
faith you=20
belong to.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As long as the followers of a religious =
order keep=20
Ducal law and don't get caught performing illegal acts, (assuming they =
gave=20
someone reason to suspect and lets face it&nbsp;some of these&nbsp;PoL =
followers=20
will be scrying on Seirs temple&nbsp;for such or trying to) then if they =

secretly eat the hearts of their dead relatives as part of the funeral =
rites who=20
it to know or care.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious =
feuding in our=20
campaign base location, we have determined the following response / =
position for=20
the Duke of Carzala:<BR><BR>1) Ducal law trumps all other law within=20
Carzala.<BR><BR>2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in =
Carzala=20
has more standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more =
influence=20
currently -- particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- =
but=20
their standing is not official).<BR><BR>3) Within Carzala religions are =
treated=20
like any other&nbsp; incorporated Company or Guild, and need a charter =
granted=20
by the Duke. They pay taxes, and if they operate other activities (such =
as=20
gambling or brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate =

licenses. (Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)&nbsp; Note that not every =

business within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the =
Duke=20
views religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree of =
control=20
over them.<BR><BR>4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild =
law" upon=20
their members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, =
making=20
Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted =
against=20
members of the religion and the punishments available are limited. =
(Generally=20
fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the member is free to quit =
the=20
religion if they so desire).<BR><BR>5) Crimes committed for religious =
reasons=20
will be prosecuted as secular crimes. Whether a baker burns down a =
competing=20
bakery, or someone thinks alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a =
priest=20
</SPAN><SPAN>burns down another religion's temple</SPAN><SPAN> on the=20
instructions of their god, they will all be charged with the high crime =
of=20
arson. Similarly, a religion that sacrifices goats without the =
appropriate=20
license may be prosecuted as an unlicensed abattoir.<BR><BR>6) Not every =

religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some religions, particularly =
some of=20
the demonic groups (but there are other religions in this category) are =
just too=20
anti-social or dangerous to allow in the Duchy -- do not expect to see a =
Temple=20
of Aim in Seagate, for example.<BR><BR>(We'll get this information on =
religions=20
in Carzala onto the wiki to make it generally available).<BR><BR>Kind=20
Regards,<BR>Martin (on behalf of the Campaign=20
Committee)</SPAN></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromGordon Lewis
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 17:18:46 +1300
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to force the shift to polytheism in the campaign? -> HUH? Since when was
this a monotheistic campaign?

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise

 

The solution would seem to me to be for the gm(s) who want this overt Temple
to a Demon to exist, for their own story reasons, to simply shift it out of
Seagate/Cazala to some other town/city (Sanctuary for example?). Is there an
important story reason as to why this temple has to be in Seagate?  Or is
this temple being used as a tool to try 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 4:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise

I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in position, but how about we
say something like "The Duke will allow any reasonable religion to practise
in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. There are a number of
unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be exterminated on
sight."

 

Then, either 

 

(a) we say that each GM maintains what gods/demons are reasonable in their
own version, or 

(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 to 100 other dark gods
according to the Duke.

 

One problem with this is what happens if a PC's patron (be it Seir, Chantres
or Michael) is banned from practising in Seagate. I think that person will
need to start keeping their head down in town, but it shouldn't stop them
from roleplaying that character.

 

Would this proposal irritate everyone but be liveable, or is it just a
weaselling out of the argument?

 

Andrew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>to force the shift to polytheism in =
the
campaign? -&gt; HUH? Since when was this a monotheistic =
campaign?</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 5 December =
2005 4:26
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Demonic =
Temple
Compromise</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The solution would seem to me to be =
for
the gm(s) who want this overt&nbsp;Temple to a Demon&nbsp;to&nbsp;exist, =
for
their own story reasons, to simply shift it out of Seagate/Cazala to =
some other
town/city (Sanctuary for example?). Is there an important story =
reason&nbsp;as to
why this temple has to be in Seagate?&nbsp; Or is this temple being used =
as a
tool to try </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Andrew
Withy (<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">DSL</st1:City> =
<st1:State
 w:st=3D"on">AK</st1:State></st1:place>)<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 5 December =
2005 4:18
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] Demonic =
Temple
Compromise</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>I know no one likes to compromise from a dug-in =
position,
but how about we say something like &quot;The Duke will allow any =
reasonable
religion to practise in Seagate, as long as they uphold local laws. =
There are a
number of unreasonable religions (Aim, Asmoday, ...). These will be
exterminated on sight.&quot;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Then, either </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(a) we say that each GM maintains what =
gods/demons&nbsp;are
reasonable in their own version, or </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>(b) we have a blacklist of 5 or 50 or 72 demons + 0 =
to 100
other dark gods according to the Duke.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>One problem with this is what happens if a PC's =
patron (be
it Seir, Chantres or Michael) is banned from practising in&nbsp;Seagate. =
I
think that person will need to start keeping their head down in town, =
but it
shouldn't stop them from roleplaying that =
character.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Would this proposal irritate everyone but be =
liveable, or is
it just a weaselling out of the argument?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

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Subject[dq] one horned god in Seagate
From
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 17:18:13 +1300
Actually the 'one horned god' is into pregnancy, not sex, as the precursor to more followers. Sex for the sake of pleasure is NOT one of the ideals.

I would guess that they have a less than tolerant attitude towards homosexulaity...

Ian

>as for the Church of the One-horned God.... isn't that 
> a whorehouse like any number of others in Seagate?)
> 
> Jacqui
> 
> 
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>


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromJacqui Smith
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 17:30:51 +1300
At 15:48 5/12/05, you wrote:
>How has Sier been recently (8 years) characterised?

That varies immensely according to the GM....

In the last encounter I had that involved Seir, he was portrayed as a tall 
dark figure who caused the very grass to burn and die beneath his feet... 
(admittedly this was on Gaea, which is a highly life-aspected plane). Not 
knowing who it was, the party naturally went on the offensive... and the PC 
in that party who was semi-pacted to Seir has been relieved of that 
particular stain upon his character.

Jacqui


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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromMichael Woodhams
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 17:33:12 +1300
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 16:50, Bernard Hoggins wrote:
> Given the nature of the powers....., what is to stop Seir slowly
> turning to the side of Light over the next 20,000 years.

Anathea tried converting him once. No sign of progress yet.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMichael Woodhams
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 17:50:33 +1300
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 15:13, Clare Baldock wrote:
> 3. I really don't think that the Duke should sanction open demon 
> worship in his lands. This doesn't mean he needs to as a matter of 
> policy hunt down underground demon worshipping cults, but if children 
> start disappearing off the streets the perpetrators should be hunted 
> down and dealt with. If a temple to a demon sets up in broad daylight 
> so-to-speak it should be defiled and its priests run out of town.

That is my first reaction.

Against that we have that it has evidently been there for a while, which
makes continuity problems if we declare it was never there, and the need
for an explanation of the change of heart otherwise.

Another thought that occurred to me later is that this wouldn't cause
any turned heads if it was in Sanctuary. If we regard Cazarla as being
(culturally/morally) half-way between Sanctuary and the "civilized"
world, then that would explain acceptance of the few demons with the
best PR. Afterall, they tolerate the guild.

Overall, there is a fundamental problem that we are mixing characters
who, in many cases, are natural enemies. For the sake of the game, we
quietly look the other way and don't have our characters try to burn
each other at the stake, or leave the guild in disgust as a viper's nest
of demon worshipers/sanctimonious bigots. Anything which strains this
pretence causes trouble. I.e. we need to avoid situations which force a
player to either blatantly go against characterisation or to retire a
character. It seems feel that the existence of Sier's temple is placing
that strain on PoL-aligned characters.


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SubjectRe: [dq] one horned god in Seagate
FromErrol Cavit
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 18:33:29 +1300 
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> 
> 
> >as for the Church of the One-horned God.... isn't that 
> > a whorehouse like any number of others in Seagate?)
> > 
> > Jacqui
> > 
> Actually the 'one horned god' is into pregnancy, not sex, as 
> the precursor to more followers. Sex for the sake of pleasure 
> is NOT one of the ideals.
> 
> I would guess that they have a less than tolerant attitude 
> towards homosexulaity...
> 
> Ian
 
Indeed, and inter-species relations. Most adventures I spare the players the
long abusive rant that would be the response to an ill-informed dig or five,
limiting my played response to "That's disgusting!!...[scowl]". We also
don't play out the interesting philosophical discussions starting with "So
why do you think the natural and joyful act of procreation is unseemly?

Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] one horned god in Seagate</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;as for the Church of the One-horned God.... =
isn't that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; a whorehouse like any number of others in =
Seagate?)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Jacqui</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Actually the 'one horned god' is into =
pregnancy, not sex, as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the precursor to more followers. Sex for the =
sake of pleasure </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is NOT one of the ideals.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I would guess that they have a less than =
tolerant attitude </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; towards homosexulaity...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Ian</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Indeed, and inter-species relations. Most adventures =
I spare the players the long abusive rant that would be the response to =
an ill-informed dig or five, limiting my played response to =
&quot;That's disgusting!!...[scowl]&quot;. We also don't play out the =
interesting philosophical discussions starting with &quot;So why do you =
think the natural and joyful act of procreation is unseemly?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Demon & PoL temples in Seagate
FromErrol Cavit
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 18:47:04 +1300 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Jacqui Smith
> Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 17:06
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Demon & PoL temples in Seagate
> 
> 
> At 16:06 5/12/05, you wrote:
> >It should be noted the temple has been there for 8-10 years without
> >anyone complaining
> 
> Have you considered the possibility that nobody complained 
> because the GM 
> who put the House of Seir in Seagate didn't sufficiently 
> publicise this? Or 
> discuss it publicly before putting it in place?
> 
> Which would have been a good idea. 


People should also note that putting something on the Wiki is well short of
a guarantee that those who might think what is written is bad for the
campaign have read it, let alone agreed with its inclusion in our game
world.


As far as I was concerned 
> if a player 
> had said they were going to visit the Church of Seir in one 
> of my games - 
> and no-one has in all those 8-10 years - I would have said 
> "What church of 
> Seir?"
> 
> People do not like being presented with a fait accompli... 
> which rather 
> explains the current reaction, does it not?
> 
> (And my compromise would be that the House of Seir is not a dedicated 
> edifice, but more likely a simple shrine above a gambling 
> den, and thus not 
> especially public... as for the Church of the One-horned 
> God.... isn't that 
> a whorehouse like any number of others in Seagate?)
> 


I'm sure that there are many that think that it is nothing more than a
particularly overt knocking-shop, yes. I assume that the Wiki entries/GM
Guide reflect reality, while referring to perceptions on occasion. 

Cheers
Errol

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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jacqui Smith</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 17:06</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Demon &amp; PoL temples in =
Seagate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; At 16:06 5/12/05, you wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;It should be noted the temple has been =
there for 8-10 years without</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;anyone complaining</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Have you considered the possibility that nobody =
complained </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; because the GM </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; who put the House of Seir in Seagate didn't =
sufficiently </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; publicise this? Or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discuss it publicly before putting it in =
place?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Which would have been a good idea. </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>People should also note that putting something on the =
Wiki is well short of a guarantee that those who might think what is =
written is bad for the campaign have read it, let alone agreed with its =
inclusion in our game world.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>As far as I was concerned </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; if a player </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; had said they were going to visit the Church of =
Seir in one </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of my games - </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and no-one has in all those 8-10 years - I =
would have said </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &quot;What church of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Seir?&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; People do not like being presented with a fait =
accompli... </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; which rather </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; explains the current reaction, does it =
not?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (And my compromise would be that the House of =
Seir is not a dedicated </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; edifice, but more likely a simple shrine above =
a gambling </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; den, and thus not </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; especially public... as for the Church of the =
One-horned </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; God.... isn't that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; a whorehouse like any number of others in =
Seagate?)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'm sure that there are many that think that it is =
nothing more than a particularly overt knocking-shop, yes. I assume =
that the Wiki entries/GM Guide reflect reality, while referring to =
perceptions on occasion. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 22:36:33 +1300
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I *OF COURSE* got Jim's written permission before publishing the emails
to the list, along with a chance for everyone else involved in the
emails to comment.
=20
I am crazy, but trying not to quote people out of context.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
	Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 1:28 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
=09
=09
	Hi all,
	=20
	I have been advised that Jim can not post to the list so I am
guessing that he may not be able to read the list either.
	Given this and that some of the main 'colourfull feed-back' came
from what I understand to be Jim, and since it was said off the list,
and I take it that it was ment as a private email (even if colourfull)
to the commitee, I do not think I wish to comment at the moment.
	=20
	Jonathan Bean
	=20
	=20
	=20
	=20


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D818283509-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I *OF=20
COURSE* got Jim's written permission before publishing the emails to the =
list,=20
along with a chance for everyone else involved in the emails to=20
comment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D818283509-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D818283509-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I am=20
crazy, but trying not to quote people out of =
context.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D818283509-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D818283509-05122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Jonathan Bean - TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 6 December 2005 1:28=20
  p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] The =
treatment=20
  of Demon temples in Seagate 5<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hi=20
  all,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  have been advised that Jim can not post to the list so I am guessing =
that he=20
  may not be able to read the list either.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Given this and that some of the main 'colourfull feed-back' =
came from=20
  what I understand to be Jim,&nbsp;and since it was said off the list, =
and I=20
  take it that it was ment as&nbsp;a private email (even if colourfull) =
to the=20
  commitee, I do not think I wish to comment at the =
moment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Jonathan Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D378201700-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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Subject[dq] PoD, PoL etc
FromKharsis
DateMon, 05 Dec 2005 22:54:38 +1300
When I started playing DQ in the late 80's one of the things I enjoyed 
about the campaign worls was that evrything was  shades of grey.  I 
comparison with other games/campaigns running at that time this was 
refreshingly different.  One of the enjoyable features of this was the 
polytheistic nature of the campaign.

Unfortunately, IMO, there has been a gradual creep towards a 
monotheistic campaign world which I think was really started when the 
campaign commitee of the time decided to unify the PoL into one 
organisation.

Now there seems to be a call from what appears to be aminority to move 
even to a 2 dimensional white/black, good/evil type of campaign world.  
This would be a major loss to the flavour of our world and would 
probably alienate a lot of players.


Please leave things as they are, they have worked for the 20+ years the 
campaign has been running.  It isn't broken - It doesn't need fixing.

Scott Whitaker


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