Subject[dq] Demonic Temple Compromise
FromHelen Saggers
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 08:06:24 +1300
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MessageNot in the 12 years I've been playing that's for sure.
The 2000 version of the players guide says on page 6 that the Pol are =
the Primary religion of the baronies, primary means that there are =
others and list the Norded gods and dragons as some of the other known =
religions.
It also states that PoD are not big on organized religion but that does =
mean that the odd temple doesn't exist.

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Gordon Lewis=20

  to force the shift to polytheism in the campaign? -> HUH? Since when =
was this a monotheistic campaign?

  =20


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Not in the 12 years I've been playing =
that's for=20
sure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The 2000 version of&nbsp;the players =
guide says on=20
page 6 that&nbsp;the Pol are the Primary religion of the baronies, =
primary means=20
that there are others and list the Norded gods and dragons as some of =
the other=20
known religions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It also states that PoD are not big on =
organized=20
religion but that does mean that the odd temple doesn't =
exist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dgordon@orcon.net.nz =
href=3D"mailto:gordon@orcon.net.nz">Gordon=20
  Lewis</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><STRONG></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">to force =
the shift to=20
  polytheism in the campaign? -&gt; HUH? Since when was this a =
monotheistic=20
  campaign?</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 07:55:56 +1300
> Overall, there is a fundamental problem that we are mixing 
> characters who, in many cases, are natural enemies. For the 
> sake of the game, we quietly look the other way and don't 
> have our characters try to burn each other at the stake, or 
> leave the guild in disgust as a viper's nest of demon 
> worshipers/sanctimonious bigots. Anything which strains this 
> pretence causes trouble. I.e. we need to avoid situations 
> which force a player to either blatantly go against 
> characterisation or to retire a character. It seems feel that 
> the existence of Sier's temple is placing that strain on 
> PoL-aligned characters.

Interestingly enough, despite the strain being there for PoD followers
like Viola, Eric, Motley etc due to the prescence of a Temple to Uriel
in Seagate they cope with it and abide by the law. 

This isn't a one way issue here. It all seems to be focussed on the fact
that the PoL characters have less restraint than the PoD's. I am sure
Viola has wanted to burn down a church or two in her time, possibly
after doing vile things to the Alter boys. 

If the players of Dark aligned characters can keep their matches in
their pockets I don't see why the other characters cannot do the same. 

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] Another Compromise.
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 08:12:37 +1300
New idea. 

Lets get rid of the Temple of Sier. It never existed. No problems there.


We relegate the PoD's to obscure cults existing in the back blocks of
nowhere. 

In order to avoid the PoL having complete rule and turning the campaign
into a somewhat dull monotheistic society, we come up with a new
pantheon, adding the appropriate detail, temples around the place,
names, symbols details etc. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 09:06:14 +1300
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 07:56
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
> 
> 
> > Overall, there is a fundamental problem that we are mixing 
> > characters who, in many cases, are natural enemies. For the 
> > sake of the game, we quietly look the other way and don't 
> > have our characters try to burn each other at the stake, or 
> > leave the guild in disgust as a viper's nest of demon 
> > worshipers/sanctimonious bigots. Anything which strains this 
> > pretence causes trouble. I.e. we need to avoid situations 
> > which force a player to either blatantly go against 
> > characterisation or to retire a character. It seems feel that 
> > the existence of Sier's temple is placing that strain on 
> > PoL-aligned characters.
> 
> Interestingly enough, despite the strain being there for PoD followers
> like Viola, Eric, Motley etc due to the prescence of a Temple to Uriel
> in Seagate they cope with it and abide by the law. 
> 
> This isn't a one way issue here. It all seems to be focussed 
> on the fact
> that the PoL characters have less restraint than the PoD's. I am sure
> Viola has wanted to burn down a church or two in her time, possibly
> after doing vile things to the Alter boys. 
> 
> If the players of Dark aligned characters can keep their matches in
> their pockets I don't see why the other characters cannot do 
> the same. 
> 

Valid point, but it can be reasonably argued that those pacting to the
primary religion of the area (that the nobs are expected to at least pay lip
service to) can/should expect a different environment than those pacting to
their stated opposites (or those pacting to members of a different
pantheon).

If most people have no major problem with the public face of e.g. the Knob
God (who could be one of the demons in disguise for all that most people
know - it isn't like the PoL did an audit), does this really come down to
labels and plausible deniability?

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 07:56</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] The treatment of Demon =
temples in Seagate 5</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Overall, there is a fundamental problem =
that we are mixing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; characters who, in many cases, are natural =
enemies. For the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; sake of the game, we quietly look the =
other way and don't </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; have our characters try to burn each other =
at the stake, or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; leave the guild in disgust as a viper's =
nest of demon </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; worshipers/sanctimonious bigots. Anything =
which strains this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; pretence causes trouble. I.e. we need to =
avoid situations </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; which force a player to either blatantly =
go against </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; characterisation or to retire a character. =
It seems feel that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the existence of Sier's temple is placing =
that strain on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; PoL-aligned characters.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Interestingly enough, despite the strain being =
there for PoD followers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; like Viola, Eric, Motley etc due to the =
prescence of a Temple to Uriel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; in Seagate they cope with it and abide by the =
law. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This isn't a one way issue here. It all seems =
to be focussed </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; on the fact</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that the PoL characters have less restraint =
than the PoD's. I am sure</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Viola has wanted to burn down a church or two =
in her time, possibly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; after doing vile things to the Alter boys. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If the players of Dark aligned characters can =
keep their matches in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; their pockets I don't see why the other =
characters cannot do </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the same. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Valid point, but it can be reasonably argued that =
those pacting to the primary religion of the area (that the nobs are =
expected to at least pay lip service to) can/should expect a different =
environment than those pacting to their stated opposites (or those =
pacting to members of a different pantheon).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If most people have no major problem with the public =
face of e.g. the Knob God (who could be one of the demons in disguise =
for all that most people know - it isn't like the PoL did an audit), =
does this really come down to labels and plausible =
deniability?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 09:12:14 +1300

The mono/poly thing is a side issue really (I think people see the "PoD vs PoL" as having a monotheistic flavour, but its not the central issue). 

The main problem is the Duke sanctioning open demon worshipping in Seagate by allowing this temple to exist (and the open threat to throw the full force of his law against anyone taking overt action against it). I think a lot people just don't see demons as shades of grey (as some people seem to want to portray them). Those who are objecting (and I include myself in this) see demons as being, at most, subtly different shades of black (A is "Midnight Black" and B is "Jet black" whereas C is "Endless Void Black"). Hence the strong objection to the duke allowing this temple to opening worship a demon in the middle of Seagate.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 09:15:13 +1300
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On 12/6/05, Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
>  does this really come down to labels and plausible deniability?
>

Labels are certainly part of this, and there appears some uncertainty as to
whether the Seagate street directory listing was intended as GM on in-game
information.

This is something we need to clear up.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Errol Cavit</b> &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">ecavit@tollnz.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-=
left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left=
: 1ex;">








<p><font size=3D"2">&nbsp;does this really come down to labels and plausibl=
e deniability?</font></p></blockquote><div><br>Labels are certainly part of=
 this, and there appears some uncertainty as to whether the Seagate street =
directory listing was intended as GM on in-game information.
<br><br>This is something we need to clear up.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br>=
</div><br></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 5
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 09:15:35 +1300
> If most people have no major problem with the public face of e.g. the
Knob God
> (who could be one of the demons in disguise for all that most people
know - it
> isn't like the PoL did an audit), does this really come down to labels
and
> plausible deniability?

Yep, I tend to think it does. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] PoD, PoL etc
FromMichael Woodhams
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 09:24:50 +1300
On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 22:54, Kharsis wrote:
> When I started playing DQ in the late 80's one of the things I enjoyed 
> about the campaign worls was that evrything was  shades of grey.  I 
> comparison with other games/campaigns running at that time this was 
> refreshingly different.  One of the enjoyable features of this was the 
> polytheistic nature of the campaign.
> 
> Unfortunately, IMO, there has been a gradual creep towards a 
> monotheistic campaign world which I think was really started when the 
> campaign commitee of the time decided to unify the PoL into one 
> organisation.
[...]
> Please leave things as they are, they have worked for the 20+ years the 
> campaign has been running.  It isn't broken - It doesn't need fixing.

It is a matter of having SHADES of grey. Your position, as I understand
it, is that the PoL are no better or worse than the PoD, just more
subtle and with better PR. That isn't shades of grey, it is uniform
grey.

The way I see it, the PoL are all lighter grey then all the PoD. Michael
is probably the darkest of the PoL, due to a propensity to pogroms. Seir
is probably the lightest of the PoD - but there is still some distance
between them. (But not as much as between Seir and Aim.) 

By all means, point out that sometimes the PoL aren't nice (although
IMHO this has been somewhat overstressed already) and (some of) the PoD
aren't always nasty, but lets not try to make them morally equivalent
please.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Another Compromise.
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 10:03:16 +1300
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 08:13
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Another Compromise. 
> 
> 
> 
> New idea. 
> 
> Lets get rid of the Temple of Sier. It never existed. No 
> problems there.
> 
> 
> We relegate the PoD's to obscure cults existing in the back blocks of
> nowhere. 
> 
> In order to avoid the PoL having complete rule and turning 
> the campaign
> into a somewhat dull monotheistic society, we come up with a new
> pantheon, adding the appropriate detail, temples around the place,
> names, symbols details etc. 
> 

You mean a 'significant minority' religion/pantheon, not explicitly opposite
to the PoL? PCs and NPCs can belong to it in the baronies and openly worship
it, and only be thought of as unusual? Occasional tussles with PoL
hard-liners?

This would be a more socially acceptable (and wide-spread) Knob God or Norse
Gods?

Cheers
Errol 

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</F=
ONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 08:13</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Another Compromise. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; New idea. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Lets get rid of the Temple of Sier. It never =
existed. No </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; problems there.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; We relegate the PoD's to obscure cults existing =
in the back blocks of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; nowhere. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In order to avoid the PoL having complete rule =
and turning </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the campaign</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; into a somewhat dull monotheistic society, we =
come up with a new</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; pantheon, adding the appropriate detail, =
temples around the place,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; names, symbols details etc. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You mean a 'significant minority' religion/pantheon, =
not explicitly opposite to the PoL? PCs and NPCs can belong to it in =
the baronies and openly worship it, and only be thought of as unusual? =
Occasional tussles with PoL hard-liners?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This would be a more socially acceptable (and =
wide-spread) Knob God or Norse Gods?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol </FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Another Compromise.
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 10:04:33 +1300
> You mean a 'significant minority' religion/pantheon, not explicitly 
> opposite to the PoL? PCs and NPCs can belong to it in the baronies
> and openly worship it, and only be thought of as unusual? Occasional
> tussles with PoL hard-liners?
> This would be a more socially acceptable (and wide-spread) Knob God
> or Norse Gods? 

Yeah pretty much. 

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] PoD, PoL etc
FromMichael Parkinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 10:10:17 +1300
> It is a matter of having SHADES of grey [...]

It's nice to see people arguing matters of morality, when the truth is that most guild members are pragmatic bastards ... and I am happy for *most*, but definitely NOT all, townsfolk to have the same opinion.

As players, there are many things we don't want in our game; but clearly there are some guild applicants who never make it through ... but it is more fun if there are more flavours out there.   We just need to keep the game mechanics so that we avoid forcing characters to do specific actions.  The religious intolerance of Pollies or Poddies  --or, for that matter, the Hand-maidens & Prostitutes Guild*-- is, like any other gang-war tolerated because EITHER it is too hard to wipe out [bad option in our home-town, but a good source of foreign campaigns] OR [preferably] because no-one really cares unless it is bad for business or property values.  Indeed the Duke's flunkies are more likely to pay attention to the prostitutes than to the light-grey or Dark-grey hats.  Blood on the streets is fine ... if it is from some civic minded druidical magics.   
 
Ironically, as GM, the greatest threat I've seen to Pollies (especially Michaelines) in my game has been other Pollies -- and not just from the guild ... for political reasons, for personal reasons, but mostly just because it makes a good game (including the conflict, or lack of conflict, with PC ethics)

regards, Michael

*picketting the Temple of the One-Horned, with signs like "recreation not procreation" or just advertising 2-for-1 Tuesdays.


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SubjectRe: [dq] PoD, PoL etc
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 10:12:08 +1300
> Ironically, as GM, the greatest threat I've seen to Pollies 
> (especially Michaelines) in my game has been other Pollies -- 
> and not just from the guild ... for political reasons, for 
> personal reasons, but mostly just because it makes a good 
> game (including the conflict, or lack of conflict, with PC ethics)

Yep I have seen this as well and I think a lot of it stems from the lack
of external threat the PoL's have, GM's want to use the PoL in a
threatening manner and the only church to use is the PoL. Increasing the
visibility of the PoD is IMHO the best way to provide additional enemies
for the PoL so GM's can use them more effectivly and stop them beating
themselves up....

Mandos
/s


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Subject[dq] GM Screens
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 11:10:16 -0800
Hi All,

I am interested in working on some GM screens. If anyone has the time and is
also interested in this please drop me an email or post to the list (if you
think something should go on it).

Also how often do GMs use the Awe Table?
I have never used it at all - how about others?

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean


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Subject[dq-announce] Seagate Times
FromKeith Smith
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 12:46:00 +1300
Time to get all those contributions ready for the next Seagate Times.

The usual wanted: Articles, News, Rumours, Whats hot/not ... etc etc ...

Thanks to those that have already sent stuff in ..

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] PoD, PoL etc
FromStephen Martin
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 12:42:20 +1300 (NZDT)
The Powers of Light are 5 (or 4 depending on your POV) different powers with similar origins who
actively work together and share most of their beliefs, one of which is opposing the Powers of
Dark.
They are presumed to gain power from followers who dedicate their afterlife to them.

The Powers of Dark are 72 (ish) different powers with similar origins who actively look out for
their own interests, rarely work together, never trust each other, often work against each other,
and have a common enemy in the Powers of Light.
They are presumed to gain power from followers who dedicate their afterlife to them.

The followers of the Powers of Light tell us that if we dedicate to them then our afterlife will
be all warm fuzzies.  But if we dedicate ourselves to the Powers of Dark then we will suffer
eternal torment.

The followers of the Powers of Dark tell us that if we dedicate to them then our afterlife will be
all wine/women/song/parties/combat/... depending on which one you're dealing with.

If you ignore the light/dark bit which we are conditioned to associate with good/evil, then which
ones should be believed, which is the good side?

Whether Michael is more evil/dangerous than Seir surely depends on which side you are on.

This is the world that I believe that I have been playing in, the powers are all dangerous if you
are not on their side.  How dangerous depends on who you run into, how fanatical they are, how
powerful they are compared to you, and how obvious your allegiance to one side or the other is.

In this world each character can have their own beliefs backed up (or not) by sound philosophical
arguments.  And a lot of this is based on their experiences with the various powers.
If every time you run into a POL they are aggressive and uncompromising, but the PODs are
reasonable and supportive then you're likely to favour the PODs.  And vice-versa.
Each character's world view and beliefs are valid for them.  And they are not officially branded
Good or Evil based on their choices.
This is the shades-of-grey world as far as I'm concerned.
The Black & White world is one where everyone is officially branded as one of 2 or 3 factions
(with us, against us, and undecided).  Many characters may believe in the black and white world
but if we say their belief is the only valid one then that eliminates a lot of potential
characters.


Within this shades-of-grey wordl, I think that we should play the POLs as generally beneficial to
mortals as a whole and individuals when they can.  And play the PODs as completely self interested
beings who treat mortals as tools to help fulfill their own agendas.
Some PODs are blatant, some are subtle.  Some are short term planners and instant gratification
types, others have plans that span centuries.
Some PODs (usually the subtle long-term planners) could easily be seen as altruistic to mortals,
but the wise remember that somewhere behind those actions there is something in it for the POD.

PODs will generally offer more in the way of immediate gratification and short term power to
mortals that pact to them (they usually have to in order to quickly brush over the consequences).

From the point of view of mortals as a whole the POLs are clearly better for them than the PODs are.
But for individuals the choice is not so clear.
The majority of people will go with short-term gains from the PODs and bugger the long term.
The educated, altruists and long term planners will generally align with the POLs.

Cheers, Stephen.

Michael Woodhams said:
> On Mon, 2005-12-05 at 22:54, Kharsis wrote:
>> When I started playing DQ in the late 80's one of the things I enjoyed  about the campaign
>> worls was that evrything was  shades of grey.  I  comparison with other games/campaigns
>> running at that time this was  refreshingly different.  One of the enjoyable features of this
>> was the  polytheistic nature of the campaign.
>>
>> Unfortunately, IMO, there has been a gradual creep towards a
>> monotheistic campaign world which I think was really started when the  campaign commitee of
>> the time decided to unify the PoL into one  organisation.
> [...]
>> Please leave things as they are, they have worked for the 20+ years the  campaign has been
>> running.  It isn't broken - It doesn't need fixing.
>
> It is a matter of having SHADES of grey. Your position, as I understand it, is that the PoL are
> no better or worse than the PoD, just more subtle and with better PR. That isn't shades of grey,
> it is uniform grey.
>
> The way I see it, the PoL are all lighter grey then all the PoD. Michael is probably the darkest
> of the PoL, due to a propensity to pogroms. Seir is probably the lightest of the PoD - but there
> is still some distance between them. (But not as much as between Seir and Aim.)
>
> By all means, point out that sometimes the PoL aren't nice (although IMHO this has been somewhat
> overstressed already) and (some of) the PoD aren't always nasty, but lets not try to make them
> morally equivalent please.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Subject[dq] Golem Weights for Voting into Rules
FromStephen Martin
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 13:34:38 +1300 (NZDT)
I have added average weights for golems to the voting issues for this meeting.
Currently nothing is specified for weights.  The proposed weights are based on simplified formula
that give a reasonable range of values.

Rag & String
    Weight (lbs) = Height (feet). Range: 0.5 to 2.5 lbs.
Clay
    Weight (lbs) = Height (feet) squared * 8. Range: 72 to 648 lbs.
Wood
    Weight (lbs) = Height (feet) squared * 6. Range: 24 to 486 lbs.
Iron
    Weight (lbs) = Height (feet) squared * 11. Range: 176 to 1,100 lbs.
Stone
    Weight (lbs) = Height (feet) squared * 13. Range: 325 to 1,872 lbs.

Refer to these wiki pages for details and some discussions:
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Proposed_Rule_Changes#Golem_Weights
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Talk:Golems

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4b
FromKelsie
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 14:01:06 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I agree with the commitees response.
 
Kelsie


  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Monday, 5 December 2005 1:36 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate 4b


Then, after the weekend
-----Original Message-----


On 12/2/05, terry spencer <terryintransit@yahoo.com> wrote: 


We believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as absolute pure
evil and
a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to indulge the terrorist v
freedom fighter or any similar argument. Regardless of the nature of
response in our corner of the world from the NPCs that carry power and
influence (the Duke, Church etc) we expect them to lead, to make a decision.
If Demons are redefines a mischievous power that require an occasional
newspaper across the nose we would like to know. 


Greetings Terry,

We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee
meeting, and considered it from the point of view of what is the best
approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range of roleplaying
opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as possible to the
established campaign history.

It is our opinion that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is
preferable to monotheism; many religions are preferable to fewer, and less
monolithic religious establishments are preferable to more. This offers a
broader range of roleplaying options.  It also creates a less stable
political and social situation, and it is generally in less stable
conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options exist.

Throughout the campaign's history there has been the availability of player
character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of Light), with
all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story complications that
this has entailed. We wish to retain this possibility, and for the PoD at
least, this requires more nuances and shades of grey than simply black and
pure evil -- else the Guild should be cleaning house rather than worrying
about a Temple in Seagate.

The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe above is certainly a valid
genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the only one, and the
campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from supporting many
different flavours of fantasy play.

It also appears that your suggestion that demons must be either "absolute
pure evil" or naughty puppies is a false dilemma, there is significant
middle ground between these positions that offers the broad range of
roleplaying options that we believe is preferable.

Additionally, it appears preferable that actions outweigh appearances -- the
mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as the Temple of Seir) is
rather less important than what his followers do. This is consistent with
the Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are aligned with demons (or
the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, Assassins, etc, provided they are
prepared to follow the Guild rules. The broad range of character options so
offered are considered desirable in the campaign, and the actions of the
individual are considered of more importance than their race, college, or
associations.

(A position I'm sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as someone
who plays a very much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for an Orc
Necromancer of legendary unpleasantness who is nonetheless one of the recent
heroes of the Dark Circle and who himself adventures with another hero of
the DC who is aligned with Seir.)

With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our
campaign base location, we have determined the following response / position
for the Duke of Carzala:

1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.

2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more
standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence
currently -- particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- but
their standing is not official).

3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated Company
or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay taxes, and if
they operate other activities (such as gambling or brothels) then they must
procure and pay for the appropriate licenses. (Tithes are not tax
deductible). :-)  Note that not every business within the Duchy needs a
charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views religions as political
entities and wishes to maintain a degree of control over them.

4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their
members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making
Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted
against members of the religion and the punishments available are limited.
(Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the member is free
to quit the religion if they so desire).

5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as secular
crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or someone thinks
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns down another
religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they will all be charged
with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion that sacrifices goats
without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an unlicensed abattoir.

6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some religions,
particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are other religions in
this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous to allow in the Duchy
-- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.

(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to make it
generally available).

So, where does that leave the Temple of Seir?  Well, Seir, while no naughty
puppy is an apparently charming and urbane demon -- which to my mind
probably makes him far more insidious and dangerous in the long term than an
obvious nutball like Aim -- but does mean that his cult is quite capable of
operating within the strictures of society and within the Duke's laws.
Providing the cult keeps paying their guild fees, their taxes, and for their
gambling licence, there seems no reason not to allow them to continue to
operate. It should be noted that the Temple appears closed these days --
apparently in response to the number of PoL troops in the city -- for which
the Duke would most likely praise the cult for their discretion.

People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and must be expunged should
feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not violating city
ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public thoroughfare",
do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or leave the Temple, and
can preach on street-corners (with the appropriate licence) about the evils
of Seir, and how his public perception of harmlessness is just a sham,
providing they are not "attempting to incite riot". Needless to say an act
such as arson would be dealt with most severely. (And if committed by
Adventurers Guild members, such members could expect to be handed over to
the Duke by the Guild).

I hope that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if there are
any parts you'd like to discuss further, or any additional information we
can furnish, please just let us know.

Kind Regards,
Martin (on behalf of the Campaign Committee)



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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531460001-06122005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I agree with the commitees =
response.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531460001-06122005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D531460001-06122005><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Kelsie</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 December 2005 1:36 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] The treatment of Demon temples =
in=20
  Seagate 4b<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D681543500-05122005>Then, after the weekend</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/2/05,=20
  <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>terry spencer</B> &lt;<A=20
  onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
  href=3D"mailto:terryintransit@yahoo.com"=20
  target=3D_blank>terryintransit@yahoo.com</A>&gt; wrote:=20
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">We=20
    believe we live in a heroic world and Demons are viewed as absolute =
pure=20
    evil and<BR>a blight on humanity, and are not prepared to indulge =
the=20
    terrorist v freedom fighter or any similar argument. Regardless of =
the=20
    nature of response in our corner of the world from the NPCs that =
carry power=20
    and influence (the Duke, Church etc) we expect them to lead, to make =
a=20
    decision. If Demons are redefines a mischievous power that require =
an=20
    occasional newspaper across the nose we would like to know. =
</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Greetings Terry,<BR><BR>We discussed your question / request =
on=20
  Sunday at a campaign committee meeting, and considered it from the =
point of=20
  view of what is the best approach that will offer the broadest and =
most=20
  flexible range of roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and =
remain as=20
  true as possible to the established campaign history.<BR><BR>It is our =
opinion=20
  that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is preferable to =
monotheism;=20
  many religions are preferable to fewer, and less monolithic religious=20
  establishments are preferable to more. This offers a broader range of=20
  roleplaying options.&nbsp; It also creates a less stable political and =
social=20
  situation, and it is generally in less stable conditions that the =
greatest=20
  number of adventuring options exist.<BR><BR>Throughout the campaign's =
history=20
  there has been the availability of player character connections to the =
Powers=20
  of Darkness (and Powers of Light), with all of the roleplaying =
opportunities=20
  and character story complications that this has entailed. We wish to =
retain=20
  this possibility, and for the PoD at least, this requires more nuances =
and=20
  shades of grey than simply black and pure evil -- else the Guild =
should be=20
  cleaning house rather than worrying about a Temple in=20
  Seagate.<BR><SPAN><BR>The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe =
above=20
  is certainly a valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not =
the only=20
  one, and the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from =
supporting=20
  many different flavours of fantasy play.<BR><BR>It also appears that =
your=20
  suggestion that demons must be either "absolute pure evil" or naughty =
puppies=20
  is a false dilemma, there is significant middle ground between these =
positions=20
  that offers the broad range of roleplaying options that we believe is=20
  preferable.<BR><BR>Additionally, it appears preferable that actions =
outweigh=20
  appearances -- the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as =
the=20
  Temple of Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. =
This is=20
  consistent with the </SPAN><SPAN>Seagate Guild's acceptance of =
characters who=20
  are aligned with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers,=20
  Assassins, etc, provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. =
The=20
  broad range of character options so offered are considered desirable =
in the=20
  campaign, and the actions of the individual are considered of more =
importance=20
  than their race, college, or associations.</SPAN><BR><SPAN><BR>(A =
position I'm=20
  sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as someone who plays a =
very=20
  much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for an Orc Necromancer of =
legendary=20
  unpleasantness who is nonetheless one of the recent heroes of the Dark =
Circle=20
  and who himself adventures with another hero of the DC who is aligned =
with=20
  Seir.)<BR><BR>With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious =
feuding=20
  in our campaign base location, we have determined the following =
response /=20
  position for the Duke of Carzala:<BR><BR>1) Ducal law trumps all other =
law=20
  within Carzala.<BR><BR>2) Carzala has no official religion, and no =
religion in=20
  Carzala has more standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps =
have more=20
  influence currently -- particularly with the number of troops around =
for the=20
  DC -- but their standing is not official).<BR><BR>3) Within Carzala =
religions=20
  are treated like any other&nbsp; incorporated Company or Guild, and =
need a=20
  charter granted by the Duke. They pay taxes, and if they operate other =

  activities (such as gambling or brothels) then they must procure and =
pay for=20
  the appropriate licenses. (Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)&nbsp; =
Note that=20
  not every business within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a =
bootmaker,=20
  the Duke views religions as political entities and wishes to maintain =
a degree=20
  of control over them.<BR><BR>4) Their charters may entitle them to =
enforce=20
  "guild law" upon their members. This means that "canon law" is in =
effect guild=20
  law, making Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then =
be=20
  prosecuted against members of the religion and the punishments =
available are=20
  limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the =
member is=20
  free to quit the religion if they so desire).<BR><BR>5) Crimes =
committed for=20
  religious reasons will be prosecuted as secular crimes. Whether a =
baker burns=20
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down a=20
  pub, or a priest </SPAN><SPAN>burns down another religion's=20
  temple</SPAN><SPAN> on the instructions of their god, they will all be =
charged=20
  with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion that sacrifices =
goats=20
  without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an unlicensed=20
  abattoir.<BR><BR>6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a =
charter. Some=20
  religions, particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are =
other=20
  religions in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous to =
allow in=20
  the Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for=20
  example.<BR><BR>(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala =
onto the=20
  wiki to make it generally available).<BR><BR>So, where does that leave =
the=20
  Temple of Seir?&nbsp; Well, Seir, while no naughty puppy is an =
apparently=20
  charming and urbane demon -- which to my mind probably makes him far =
more=20
  insidious and dangerous in the long term than an obvious nutball like =
Aim --=20
  but does mean that his cult is quite capable of operating within the=20
  strictures of society and within the Duke's laws. Providing the cult =
keeps=20
  paying their guild fees, their taxes, and for their gambling licence, =
there=20
  seems no reason not to allow them to continue to operate. It should be =
noted=20
  that the Temple appears closed these days -- apparently in response to =
the=20
  number of PoL troops in the city -- for which the Duke would most =
likely=20
  praise the cult for their discretion.<BR><BR>People (such as Turf) who =
feel=20
  that Seir is evil and must be expunged should feel free to picket the =
Temple,=20
  provided they are not violating city ordinances such as "unlawful =
assembly" or=20
  "blocking a public thoroughfare", do not harass or assault anyone =
attempting=20
  to enter or leave the Temple, and can preach on street-corners (with =
the=20
  appropriate licence) about the evils of Seir, and how his public =
perception of=20
  harmlessness is just a sham, providing they are not "attempting to =
incite=20
  riot". Needless to say an act such as arson would be dealt with most =
severely.=20
  (And if committed by Adventurers Guild members, such members could =
expect to=20
  be handed over to the Duke by the Guild).<BR><BR>I hope that's a =
sufficiently=20
  full response to your enquiry, but if there are any parts you'd like =
to=20
  discuss further, or any additional information we can furnish, please =
just let=20
  us know.<BR><BR>Kind Regards,<BR>Martin (on behalf of the Campaign=20
  Committee)</SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject[dq] Dates and Time stamp
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 15:11:56 -0800
Hi all,

Who else is receiving list Emails with the incorrect date?
I am for one, and others have asked me to check my clock - which I have, and
emails in and out for work are the correct date.
I am guessing it is the email list computer?

Are others seeing this problem?

Kind regards

Jonathan Bean


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SubjectRe: [dq] Dates and Time stamp
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 15:36:13 +1300
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Sorry, everyone else's 'Sent' stamp looks OK here, yours is fast. The list
and your e-mail servers won't play nice?

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]
> Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 12:12
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Dates and Time stamp
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Who else is receiving list Emails with the incorrect date?
> I am for one, and others have asked me to check my clock - 
> which I have, and
> emails in and out for work are the correct date.
> I am guessing it is the email list computer?
> 
> Are others seeing this problem?
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Jonathan Bean
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Sorry, everyone else's 'Sent' stamp looks OK here, yours is fast. The list and your e-mail servers won't play nice?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Jonathan Bean - TME [<A HREF="mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 12:12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Dates and Time stamp</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Hi all,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Who else is receiving list Emails with the incorrect date?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; I am for one, and others have asked me to check my clock - </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; which I have, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; emails in and out for work are the correct date.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; I am guessing it is the email list computer?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Are others seeing this problem?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Kind regards</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Jonathan Bean</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT>
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Subject[dq] yay
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 7 Dec 2005 12:33:04 +1300
Time zone issue all fixed now - yay Struan.

Jono


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Subject[dq] A lighter note
FromMandos Mitchinson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 16:14:57 +1300
Given the seriousness of the PoD/PoL discussions over the last few days
I thought this might amuse people. 

http://educate.barnesandnoble.com/educate/bn/home/catalog/overview.jsp?p
roductIdP689

A four week training course on how to play D&D :)

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Assassins
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 16:31:41 +1300


>From: "Andrew\ Withy\ (DSL\ AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>

>Truely selfish people won't learn Healer (except for self healing - they
>won't spread it around).

Damn straight Human only learnt healer becuase he dosent trust any one else. 
He stopped at Rk 4 because that was all He needed. Empathy is great for 
determining wheather the person you just sapped has any surprises surcreated 
in thier person.

>Dandys, fops and similar are usually mad social-politics players - even
>if they avoid government or responsibility.

Imagine not being taken seriously when the gaurd are trying to figue out 
"who done it".

>Troubadour is an entertainment skill. You get a lot more than a single
>instrument from it even if you specialise. You get to be an entertainer.

And is a great cover for casing or even proforming an op. Imagine getting 
invited inside the impregnable fortress ;)

>And I think the "adventuring" thief is a D&Dism that should be crushed
>mercilessly. Become a mechanician.

An adventuring thief is merely one who does not shit where he/she eats.

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
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SubjectRe: [dq] skills reflecting character: was Assassin
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 16:44:12 +1300


>From: Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>


>Warriors loose their bonuses if the opposition can't fight back, but in a
>covert op like the Trogan Horse you don't want some one fighting back,

Holy crap Trogs have cavelry?
Arn't they nasty enough?
;)

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
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SubjectRe: [dq] A lighter note
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 16:50:13 +1300
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On 12/6/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>
> A four week training course on how to play D&D :)


So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of DMing?  :-)

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On 12/6/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><s=
pan class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
<br>A four week training course on how to play D&amp;D :)</blockquote><div>=
<br>So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of DMing?&nbsp; :=
-)<br>&nbsp;</div><br></div><br>

------=_Part_1314_14992110.1133841013022--


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SubjectRe: [dq] A lighter note
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 16:54:51 +1300
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-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 16:50
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] A lighter note


On 12/6/05, Mandos Mitchinson < MandosM@adhb.govt.nz
<mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> > wrote: 



A four week training course on how to play D&D :)


So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of DMing?  :-)
 


Getting close: 
 
 <http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html>
http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html 
 
Finnish roleplaying commentator and theorist Markus Montola just got his
dissertation research plan approved by faculty at
<http://www.uta.fi/english/index.html> the University of Tampere, an
institution whose  <http://gamelab.uta.fi/main> Game Research Lab is hosting
an impressive looking  <http://gamelab.uta.fi/rpg-seminar/> Seminar on
Roleplaying this coming March, ...
His research plan (a study of roleplaying as social process) is ambitious
and fascinating. You can read about it
<http://users.tkk.fi/~mmontola/rplan2005.html> here, on his website.  
 
 
Errol

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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 6 December 2005 
  16:50<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] A lighter 
  note<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/6/05, <B class=gmail_sendername>Mandos 
  Mitchinson</B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>A 
    four week training course on how to play D&amp;D :)</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of DMing?&nbsp; 
  :-)<BR>&nbsp;</DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=633405203-06122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Getting close:&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=633405203-06122005>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><A 
href="http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html"><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html</FONT></A><SPAN 
class=633405203-06122005><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=633405203-06122005>Finnish roleplaying 
commentator and theorist Markus Montola just got his dissertation research plan 
approved by faculty at <A href="http://www.uta.fi/english/index.html"><FONT 
color=#003366>the University of Tampere</FONT></A>, an institution whose <A 
href="http://gamelab.uta.fi/main"><FONT color=#003366>Game Research 
Lab</FONT></A> is hosting an impressive looking <A 
href="http://gamelab.uta.fi/rpg-seminar/"><FONT color=#003366>Seminar on 
Roleplaying</FONT></A> this coming March, ...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=633405203-06122005>His research plan (a 
study of roleplaying as social process) is ambitious and fascinating. You can 
read about it <A href="http://users.tkk.fi/~mmontola/rplan2005.html"><FONT 
color=#003366>here, on his website</FONT></A>.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=633405203-06122005>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject[dq] Photos
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 17:04:53 +1300
Hey just a thought

what do people think about including photos of at least the Gms on the wiki 
or at the libaray so people know who is who.

This would be useful to those who are infrequent at guild meetings or newbs 
trying to track down that rk 10 masterarmour character to perchase his 
services.

Character pics for those who have them would also be cool assuming the site 
supports this.

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
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SubjectRe: [dq] skills reflecting character: was Assassin
FromHelen Saggers
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 17:23:56 +1300
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Bad Idea to make fun of your GMs spelling disability Before you get you =
ep slip.

And yes trogs have cavalry, their mounts are of the large carnivorous =
kind of course ;-)

Helen

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Michael Scott" <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] skills reflecting character: was Assassin


>=20
>=20
>=20
> >From: Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>
>=20
>=20
> >Warriors loose their bonuses if the opposition can't fight back, but =
in a
> >covert op like the Trogan Horse you don't want some one fighting =
back,
>=20
> Holy crap Trogs have cavelry?
> Arn't they nasty enough?
> ;)
>=20
> TTFN
> Michael
>=20
> _________________________________________________________________
> Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @=20
> http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
>=20
>=20
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bad Idea to make fun of your GMs =
spelling=20
disability&nbsp;</FONT><STRONG>Before</STRONG> you get you ep =
slip.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And yes trogs have cavalry, their =
mounts are of=20
the&nbsp;large carnivorous kind of course ;-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: "Michael Scott" &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To: &lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:44=20
PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] skills reflecting =
character: was=20
Assassin</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;From: Helen Saggers =
&lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>helen@owbn.net.nz</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
<BR>&gt; &gt;Warriors loose their bonuses if the opposition can't fight =
back,=20
but in a<BR>&gt; &gt;covert op like the Trogan Horse you don't want some =
one=20
fighting back,<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Holy crap Trogs have cavelry?<BR>&gt; =
Arn't they=20
nasty enough?<BR>&gt; ;)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; TTFN<BR>&gt; Michael<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
_________________________________________________________________<BR>&gt;=
 Need=20
more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ <BR>&gt; </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html"><FONT =
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size=3D2>http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html</FONT></A=
><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify =
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SubjectRe: [dq] Daimons and Archons
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 17:19:13 +1300
Why don't we just call them "The Powers" irrespective of light and dark and 
agree that they are beyond mortal ken.

Or is this to simplistic?

TTFN
Michael
(confused as to why it matters what the nasty bastards are called.)

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SubjectRe: [dq] Photos
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 17:23:17 +1300
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Talk about Rogue's Gallery!!

While on the topic, is there some secret trick to adding images to the Wiki.
The front page says to can't, but some people have (using a non-standard
method, presumably)

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Michael Scott
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 17:05
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Photos
> 
> 
> Hey just a thought
> 
> what do people think about including photos of at least the 
> Gms on the wiki 
> or at the libaray so people know who is who.
> 
> This would be useful to those who are infrequent at guild 
> meetings or newbs 
> trying to track down that rk 10 masterarmour character to 
> perchase his 
> services.
> 
> Character pics for those who have them would also be cool 
> assuming the site 
> supports this.
> 
> TTFN
> Michael
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals 
> http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=channel&tcid=200731
> 
> 
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Talk about Rogue's Gallery!!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>While on the topic, is there some secret trick to =
adding images to the Wiki. The front page says to can't, but some =
people have (using a non-standard method, presumably)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Michael Scott</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 17:05</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Photos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hey just a thought</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; what do people think about including photos of =
at least the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Gms on the wiki </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; or at the libaray so people know who is =
who.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This would be useful to those who are =
infrequent at guild </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; meetings or newbs </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; trying to track down that rk 10 masterarmour =
character to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; perchase his </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; services.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Character pics for those who have them would =
also be cool </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; assuming the site </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; supports this.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; TTFN</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Michael</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; =
_________________________________________________________________</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Looking for love? Check out XtraMSN Personals =
</FONT>
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" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://xtramsn.match.com/match/mt.cfm?pg=3Dchannel&tci=
d=3D200731</A></FONT>
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SubjectRe: [dq] GM Screens
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 17:44:11 +1300
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Bean - TME
> Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 08:10
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] GM Screens
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I am interested in working on some GM screens. If anyone has 
> the time and is
> also interested in this please drop me an email or post to 
> the list (if you
> think something should go on it).
> 
> Also how often do GMs use the Awe Table?
> I have never used it at all - how about others?
> 


You might find these comments useful:

http://www.treasuretables.org/2005/11/do-you-use-a-gms-screen
http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=180#tips
http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=182#r2

Cheers
Errol

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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jonathan Bean - TME</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, 7 December 2005 08:10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] GM Screens</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Hi All,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I am interested in working on some GM screens. =
If anyone has </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the time and is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; also interested in this please drop me an email =
or post to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the list (if you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; think something should go on it).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Also how often do GMs use the Awe Table?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I have never used it at all - how about =
others?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You might find these comments useful:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.treasuretables.org/2005/11/do-you-use-a-gms-screen" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.treasuretables.org/2005/11/do-you-use-a-gms=
-screen</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=3D180#tips" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=3D=
180#tips</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=3D182#r2" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.roleplayingtips.com/readissue.php?number=3D=
182#r2</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] A lighter note
FromHelen Saggers
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 18:12:42 +1300
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Well at least now we are no longer a loony fringe or a bunch of closet =
Satan worshipers trying to corrupt young minds, not if we get a whole =
seminar on role-playing.
I doubt we are any saner/ or not  than we were 20 30 years ago, older =
maybe. And in the 50s the olds said rock and roll was the devils music.
Its a crazy world

Helen

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Errol Cavit=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] A lighter note



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, 6 December 2005 16:50
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject: Re: [dq] A lighter note


    On 12/6/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:=20

      A four week training course on how to play D&D :)

    So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of DMing?  :-)
    =20


  Getting close:=20

  http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html=20

  Finnish roleplaying commentator and theorist Markus Montola just got =
his dissertation research plan approved by faculty at the University of =
Tampere, an institution whose Game Research Lab is hosting an impressive =
looking Seminar on Roleplaying this coming March, ...
  His research plan (a study of roleplaying as social process) is =
ambitious and fascinating. You can read about it here, on his website. =20


  Errol
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well at least now we are no longer a =
loony fringe=20
or a bunch of closet Satan worshipers trying to corrupt young minds, not =
if we=20
get a whole seminar on role-playing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I doubt we are any saner/ or not =
&nbsp;than we were=20
20 30 years ago, older maybe. And&nbsp;in the 50s the olds&nbsp;said =
rock and=20
roll was the devils music.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its a crazy world</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Decavit@tollnz.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">Errol Cavit</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 06, =
2005 4:54=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] A lighter =
note</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson=20
    [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 6 =
December 2005=20
    16:50<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
    [dq] A lighter note<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/6/05, <B=20
    class=3Dgmail_sendername>Mandos Mitchinson</B> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>&gt; =
wrote:=20
    <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>A=20
      four week training course on how to play D&amp;D :)</BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR>So how long you reckon before one can get a Batchelor of=20
    DMing?&nbsp; :-)<BR>&nbsp;</DIV><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D633405203-06122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Getting close:&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D633405203-06122005></SPAN><BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff><A=20
  href=3D"http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  =
size=3D2>http://www.20by20room.com/2005/11/go_markus_go.html</FONT></A><S=
PAN=20
  class=3D633405203-06122005><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D633405203-06122005>Finnish =
roleplaying=20
  commentator and theorist Markus Montola just got his dissertation =
research=20
  plan approved by faculty at <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.uta.fi/english/index.html"><FONT =
color=3D#003366>the University=20
  of Tampere</FONT></A>, an institution whose <A=20
  href=3D"http://gamelab.uta.fi/main"><FONT color=3D#003366>Game =
Research=20
  Lab</FONT></A> is hosting an impressive looking <A=20
  href=3D"http://gamelab.uta.fi/rpg-seminar/"><FONT =
color=3D#003366>Seminar on=20
  Roleplaying</FONT></A> this coming March, ...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D633405203-06122005>His =
research plan (a=20
  study of roleplaying as social process) is ambitious and fascinating. =
You can=20
  read about it <A =
href=3D"http://users.tkk.fi/~mmontola/rplan2005.html"><FONT=20
  color=3D#003366>here, on his =
website</FONT></A>.&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D633405203-06122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D633405203-06122005>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY><=
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SubjectRe: [dq] The treatment of Demon temples in Seagate
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 18:07:08 +1300
Yes get rid of all the temples, churches and places of whoreship. We live in 
an enlightened society, tell the powers to bog off.

What people do in thier own homes or heads is thier buisness, but lets clean 
up our streets and run these soliscitous fanatics out of town. Won't someone 
think of the children being exposed to these dubious morals from dirty men 
in frocks.

Many people came to the frontier to escape religious persicusion of all 
kinds.

Lets end the reign of ignorance throw down the powers and build schools, 
universities and places free thinkers and philosophers can gather.

Don't just seperate the church from the state, kick it in the nads and stomp 
on it till it goes away and take all the problems with it.

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming


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SubjectRe: [dq] Another Compromise.
Frommhyoung
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 18:53:59 +1300
This is daft. Only in very rare circumstances should the campaign committee,
complaints tribunal or any other DQ body overrule an event or GM. This
situation does not warrant that.  It has too much story weight with too many
characters to just be dismissed as having never happened

There is a Temple to Sier in Seagate and its been hiding there for
approximately 8 years.Now that its presence has been discovered, its days
are
numbered.

One of the following should happen:

1) William runs a game resolving the matter, after all he stuck the temple
there to the best of my knowledge and no doubt had some cunning plan
revolving around it. He has already indicated that he would do this if
approached by the rapid PoL hordes.

2) The Duke closes the temple down now that it has been bought to his
attention that this temple is in fact that of a Demon. He does this for a
number of valid political reasons. He has been deceived and wants it to just
quietly go away, he wishes to avoid an outbreak of hostilities between
opposing factions within the SAG, the streets are crawling with PoL forces
in Seagate combating the Dark Circle, he doesn't want Cazala invaded by one
of its northern neighbours. I am sure there are other valid reasons that he
has reached this conclusion.


Either way the worship of Sier is driven back underground where it belongs.


If there is a third valid option I haven't seen it expressed in this
discussion.




Michael Young



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 8:12 AM
Subject: [dq] Another Compromise.

New idea.

Lets get rid of the Temple of Sier. It never existed. No problems there.

We relegate the PoD's to obscure cults existing in the back blocks of
nowhere.

In order to avoid the PoL having complete rule and turning the campaign
into a somewhat dull monotheistic society, we come up with a new
pantheon, adding the appropriate detail, temples around the place,
names, symbols details etc.

Mandos
/s


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SubjectRe: [dq] Another Compromise.
FromClare Baldock
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 18:56:20 +1300
Hear! Hear!

cheers,

clare

On 06/12/2005, at 18:53, mhyoung wrote:

> This is daft. Only in very rare circumstances should the campaign 
> committee,
> complaints tribunal or any other DQ body overrule an event or GM. This
> situation does not warrant that.  It has too much story weight with 
> too many
> characters to just be dismissed as having never happened
>
> There is a Temple to Sier in Seagate and its been hiding there for
> approximately 8 years.Now that its presence has been discovered, its 
> days
> are
> numbered.
>
> One of the following should happen:
>
> 1) William runs a game resolving the matter, after all he stuck the 
> temple
> there to the best of my knowledge and no doubt had some cunning plan
> revolving around it. He has already indicated that he would do this if
> approached by the rapid PoL hordes.
>
> 2) The Duke closes the temple down now that it has been bought to his
> attention that this temple is in fact that of a Demon. He does this 
> for a
> number of valid political reasons. He has been deceived and wants it 
> to just
> quietly go away, he wishes to avoid an outbreak of hostilities between
> opposing factions within the SAG, the streets are crawling with PoL 
> forces
> in Seagate combating the Dark Circle, he doesn't want Cazala invaded 
> by one
> of its northern neighbours. I am sure there are other valid reasons 
> that he
> has reached this conclusion.
>
>
> Either way the worship of Sier is driven back underground where it 
> belongs.
>
>
> If there is a third valid option I haven't seen it expressed in this
> discussion.
>
>
>
>
> Michael Young
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mandos Mitchinson" <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 8:12 AM
> Subject: [dq] Another Compromise.
>
> New idea.
>
> Lets get rid of the Temple of Sier. It never existed. No problems 
> there.
>
> We relegate the PoD's to obscure cults existing in the back blocks of
> nowhere.
>
> In order to avoid the PoL having complete rule and turning the campaign
> into a somewhat dull monotheistic society, we come up with a new
> pantheon, adding the appropriate detail, temples around the place,
> names, symbols details etc.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Campaign Committee responce to Terry/Turf
FromM\.H\.Young
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 19:46:54 +1300
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While there may be elements within this ruling that are completely =
reasonable from the Dukes and campaigns point of view. Overall I would =
have to say that this is the biggest load of bollocks I've read in a =
long time. It completely destroys any creditability in the way Cazala is =
governed. No sane ruler would treat demons or this situation in this =
manner. Now I could believe that the Duke allows The SAG within Cazala =
even if it does stretch suspension of disbelieve. We have never tied =
down exactly why he permits The SAG, but it wouldn't be too hard to come =
up with valid, believable rationales within the world. But this ruling =
just beggars belief. I am extremely disappointed in the campaign =
committee over this matter.

Putting on my characters hats briefly. The only conclusion I could come =
to in character is that the Duke as been possessed by Demons, Sier or =
his agents and is in need of rescuing. A matter to be attended to when I =
return to Seagate methinks. Lets see, I'll need a distraction. I know, a =
small earthquake and fire will keep the guards busy while I =
rescue/assassinate the Duke. Turf, what you doing on say the Seventh of =
Heat.........

Michael Young



Greetings Terry,

We discussed your question / request on Sunday at a campaign committee =
meeting, and considered it from the point of view of what is the best =
approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range of =
roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as =
possible to the established campaign history.

It is our opinion that within the Guild campaign world polytheism is =
preferable to monotheism; many religions are preferable to fewer, and =
less monolithic religious establishments are preferable to more. This =
offers a broader range of roleplaying options.  It also creates a less =
stable political and social situation, and it is generally in less =
stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options exist.

Throughout the campaign's history there has been the availability of =
player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of =
Light), with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story =
complications that this has entailed. We wish to retain this =
possibility, and for the PoD at least, this requires more nuances and =
shades of grey than simply black and pure evil -- else the Guild should =
be cleaning house rather than worrying about a Temple in Seagate.

The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe above is certainly a =
valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the only one, and =
the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from supporting =
many different flavours of fantasy play.

It also appears that your suggestion that demons must be either =
"absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a false dilemma, there is =
significant middle ground between these positions that offers the broad =
range of roleplaying options that we believe is preferable.

Additionally, it appears preferable that actions outweigh appearances -- =
the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as the Temple of =
Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is =
consistent with the Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are =
aligned with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, =
Assassins, etc, provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. =
The broad range of character options so offered are considered desirable =
in the campaign, and the actions of the individual are considered of =
more importance than their race, college, or associations.

(A position I'm sure you yourself can understand and appreciate as =
someone who plays a very much "white hat" character who is Sheriff for =
an Orc Necromancer of legendary unpleasantness who is nonetheless one of =
the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who himself adventures with =
another hero of the DC who is aligned with Seir.)

With this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our =
campaign base location, we have determined the following response / =
position for the Duke of Carzala:

1) Ducal law trumps all other law within Carzala.

2) Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more =
standing than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence =
currently -- particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- =
but their standing is not official).

3) Within Carzala religions are treated like any other  incorporated =
Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by the Duke. They pay =
taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as gambling or =
brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses. =
(Tithes are not tax deductible). :-)  Note that not every business =
within the Duchy needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views =
religions as political entities and wishes to maintain a degree of =
control over them.

4) Their charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their =
members. This means that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making =
Blasphemy, Heresy, etc guild crimes. These can only then be prosecuted =
against members of the religion and the punishments available are =
limited. (Generally fines, corporal punishment, servitude -- but the =
member is free to quit the religion if they so desire).

5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be prosecuted as secular =
crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or someone thinks =
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest burns down another =
religion's temple on the instructions of their god, they will all be =
charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion that =
sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an =
unlicensed abattoir.

6) Not every religion or cult will be offered a charter. Some religions, =
particularly some of the demonic groups (but there are other religions =
in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous to allow in the =
Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for example.

(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto the wiki to =
make it generally available).

So, where does that leave the Temple of Seir?  Well, Seir, while no =
naughty puppy is an apparently charming and urbane demon -- which to my =
mind probably makes him far more insidious and dangerous in the long =
term than an obvious nutball like Aim -- but does mean that his cult is =
quite capable of operating within the strictures of society and within =
the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying their guild fees, their =
taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems no reason not to =
allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted that the Temple =
appears closed these days -- apparently in response to the number of PoL =
troops in the city -- for which the Duke would most likely praise the =
cult for their discretion.

People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and must be expunged =
should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not violating =
city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public =
thoroughfare", do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or =
leave the Temple, and can preach on street-corners (with the appropriate =
licence) about the evils of Seir, and how his public perception of =
harmlessness is just a sham, providing they are not "attempting to =
incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson would be dealt with =
most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers Guild members, such =
members could expect to be handed over to the Duke by the Guild).

I hope that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if there =
are any parts you'd like to discuss further, or any additional =
information we can furnish, please just let us know.

Kind Regards,
Martin (on behalf of the Campaign Committee)
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<DIV align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>While there may be =
elements within=20
this ruling that are completely reasonable from the Dukes and=20
campaigns&nbsp;point of view. Overall I would have to say that this is =
the=20
biggest load of bollocks I've read in a long time. It completely =
destroys any=20
creditability in the way Cazala&nbsp;is governed. No sane ruler would=20
treat&nbsp;demons or this situation&nbsp;in this manner. Now I could =
believe=20
that the Duke allows The SAG within Cazala even if it does stretch =
suspension of=20
disbelieve. We have never tied down exactly why he permits The SAG, but =
it=20
wouldn't be too hard to come up with valid, believable rationales within =
the=20
world. But this ruling just beggars belief. I am extremely disappointed =
in the=20
campaign committee over this matter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Putting on my =
characters hats=20
briefly. The only conclusion I could come to in character is that the =
Duke as=20
been possessed by Demons, Sier or his agents and is in need of rescuing. =
A=20
matter to be attended to when I return to Seagate methinks. Lets see, =
I'll need=20
a distraction. I know,&nbsp;a small&nbsp;earthquake and&nbsp;fire will =
keep the=20
guards busy while I rescue/assassinate the Duke. Turf, what you doing on =
say the=20
Seventh of Heat.........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Djustify><FONT face=3DArial size=3D4>Michael =
Young</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Greetings Terry,<BR><BR>We discussed your question / request on =
Sunday at a=20
campaign committee meeting, and considered it from the point of view of =
what is=20
the best approach that will offer the broadest and most flexible range =
of=20
roleplaying opportunities within the campaign,and remain as true as =
possible to=20
the established campaign history.<BR><BR>It is our opinion that within =
the Guild=20
campaign world polytheism is preferable to monotheism; many religions =
are=20
preferable to fewer, and less monolithic religious establishments are =
preferable=20
to more. This offers a broader range of roleplaying options.&nbsp; It =
also=20
creates a less stable political and social situation, and it is =
generally in=20
less stable conditions that the greatest number of adventuring options=20
exist.<BR><BR>Throughout the campaign's history there has been the =
availability=20
of player character connections to the Powers of Darkness (and Powers of =
Light),=20
with all of the roleplaying opportunities and character story =
complications that=20
this has entailed. We wish to retain this possibility, and for the PoD =
at least,=20
this requires more nuances and shades of grey than simply black and pure =
evil --=20
else the Guild should be cleaning house rather than worrying about a =
Temple in=20
Seagate.<BR><SPAN><BR>The form of heroic roleplaying that you describe =
above is=20
certainly a valid genre within the Guild campaign, but it is not the =
only one,=20
and the campaign gains much of its strength and longevity from =
supporting many=20
different flavours of fantasy play.<BR><BR>It also appears that your =
suggestion=20
that demons must be either "absolute pure evil" or naughty puppies is a =
false=20
dilemma, there is significant middle ground between these positions that =
offers=20
the broad range of roleplaying options that we believe is=20
preferable.<BR><BR>Additionally, it appears preferable that actions =
outweigh=20
appearances -- the mere suggestion that something is demonic (such as =
the Temple=20
of Seir) is rather less important than what his followers do. This is =
consistent=20
with the </SPAN><SPAN>Seagate Guild's acceptance of characters who are =
aligned=20
with demons (or the PoL), along with Orcs, Necromancers, Assassins, etc, =

provided they are prepared to follow the Guild rules. The broad range of =

character options so offered are considered desirable in the campaign, =
and the=20
actions of the individual are considered of more importance than their =
race,=20
college, or associations.</SPAN><BR><SPAN><BR>(A position I'm sure you =
yourself=20
can understand and appreciate as someone who plays a very much "white =
hat"=20
character who is Sheriff for an Orc Necromancer of legendary =
unpleasantness who=20
is nonetheless one of the recent heroes of the Dark Circle and who =
himself=20
adventures with another hero of the DC who is aligned with =
Seir.)<BR><BR>With=20
this in mind, and also wishing to avoid religious feuding in our =
campaign base=20
location, we have determined the following response / position for the =
Duke of=20
Carzala:<BR><BR>1) Ducal law trumps all other law within =
Carzala.<BR><BR>2)=20
Carzala has no official religion, and no religion in Carzala has more =
standing=20
than another. (It is true that PoL perhaps have more influence currently =
--=20
particularly with the number of troops around for the DC -- but their =
standing=20
is not official).<BR><BR>3) Within Carzala religions are treated like =
any=20
other&nbsp; incorporated Company or Guild, and need a charter granted by =
the=20
Duke. They pay taxes, and if they operate other activities (such as =
gambling or=20
brothels) then they must procure and pay for the appropriate licenses. =
(Tithes=20
are not tax deductible). :-)&nbsp; Note that not every business within =
the Duchy=20
needs a charter, but unlike a bootmaker, the Duke views religions as =
political=20
entities and wishes to maintain a degree of control over them.<BR><BR>4) =
Their=20
charters may entitle them to enforce "guild law" upon their members. =
This means=20
that "canon law" is in effect guild law, making Blasphemy, Heresy, etc =
guild=20
crimes. These can only then be prosecuted against members of the =
religion and=20
the punishments available are limited. (Generally fines, corporal =
punishment,=20
servitude -- but the member is free to quit the religion if they so=20
desire).<BR><BR>5) Crimes committed for religious reasons will be =
prosecuted as=20
secular crimes. Whether a baker burns down a competing bakery, or =
someone thinks=20
alcohol is evil and burns down a pub, or a priest </SPAN><SPAN>burns =
down=20
another religion's temple</SPAN><SPAN> on the instructions of their god, =
they=20
will all be charged with the high crime of arson. Similarly, a religion =
that=20
sacrifices goats without the appropriate license may be prosecuted as an =

unlicensed abattoir.<BR><BR>6) Not every religion or cult will be =
offered a=20
charter. Some religions, particularly some of the demonic groups (but =
there are=20
other religions in this category) are just too anti-social or dangerous =
to allow=20
in the Duchy -- do not expect to see a Temple of Aim in Seagate, for=20
example.<BR><BR>(We'll get this information on religions in Carzala onto =
the=20
wiki to make it generally available).<BR><BR>So, where does that leave =
the=20
Temple of Seir?&nbsp; Well, Seir, while no naughty puppy is an =
apparently=20
charming and urbane demon -- which to my mind probably makes him far =
more=20
insidious and dangerous in the long term than an obvious nutball like =
Aim -- but=20
does mean that his cult is quite capable of operating within the =
strictures of=20
society and within the Duke's laws. Providing the cult keeps paying =
their guild=20
fees, their taxes, and for their gambling licence, there seems no reason =
not to=20
allow them to continue to operate. It should be noted that the Temple =
appears=20
closed these days -- apparently in response to the number of PoL troops =
in the=20
city -- for which the Duke would most likely praise the cult for their=20
discretion.<BR><BR>People (such as Turf) who feel that Seir is evil and =
must be=20
expunged should feel free to picket the Temple, provided they are not =
violating=20
city ordinances such as "unlawful assembly" or "blocking a public =
thoroughfare",=20
do not harass or assault anyone attempting to enter or leave the Temple, =
and can=20
preach on street-corners (with the appropriate licence) about the evils =
of Seir,=20
and how his public perception of harmlessness is just a sham, providing =
they are=20
not "attempting to incite riot". Needless to say an act such as arson =
would be=20
dealt with most severely. (And if committed by Adventurers Guild =
members, such=20
members could expect to be handed over to the Duke by the =
Guild).<BR><BR>I hope=20
that's a sufficiently full response to your enquiry, but if there are =
any parts=20
you'd like to discuss further, or any additional information we can =
furnish,=20
please just let us know.<BR><BR>Kind Regards,<BR>Martin (on behalf of =
the=20
Campaign Committee)</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Another Compromise.
FromWilliam Dymock
DateTue, 6 Dec 2005 19:58:17 +1300
1) William runs a game resolving the matter, after all he stuck the temple
there to the best of my knowledge and no doubt had some cunning plan
revolving around it. He has already indicated that he would do this if
approached by the rapid PoL hordes.

William is busy for the next month getting married. Certain events are to be
moderated via email by myself and George.
Talk to George if you want to sign up. If something reality bendingly
strange happens I may run a short game in late Jan or Feb.

William
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Subject[dq] Demonic Church + Ducal Decree
FromZane Mendoza
DateMon, 5 Dec 2005 23:32:54 -0800 (PST)
I have been thinking about this a lot and trying to
work out why the duke/campaign comittee made this
decree and I can think of a number of valid reasons

1> The duke wants to avoid conflict occuring in the
heart of seagate while he battles the DC. Thus
preserving the city's internal structure's until the
war is over and he can then commit himself of getting
rid of any unsavoury religious groups etc from seagate
itself... i.e. he doesn't want the POL church's
fighting a war in seagate against Seir and his
flunkies as it would just be BAD

2> He is allowing the Temple to Seir to remain to
increase funds from taxes to assist in the war effort,
also he may not of realised that it was a Temple to
Seir. 

3> He was possessed, if this is the case the guild
needs to get involved, and find out whats going on.

4> The Temple offered to add substantial monetary
contributions to assist in the Duke's reign, with
agreements to not do any overtly evil acts.

on the flip side I am whole heartedly against the idea
of just saying the church never existed. 

Also in response to an email that stated "...Have you
considered the possibility that nobody complained
because the GM who put the House of Seir in Seagate
didn't sufficiently publicise this?..." my response is
why would it need to be? Seir gets this temple built
and being a canny demon realises that once word leaks
the POL followers are likely to go after it, so he
would likely keep it fairly hush hush letting word
spread slowly. If he publicised the existence of the
temple it would of been burnt down in rather short
order.

Personally I also like the fact that rather than in
D&D (which is just hack and slash) not all demons will
attack you on sight or try to remove you from
existence, in DQ 99% of the demon's I have encountered
have all been approachable and tried to get the
PC/Party to do them a specific task to further their
own evil agenda (sacrificing a local hero, owing a
favour to the demon). This I think enhances the game,
it means that there are more roleplaying opportunities
rather than just hack and slash, this is one of the
fundamental reasons why I think DQ is soo successful,
there is a broad range of experiences to be had, and
also a diverse range of adversaries, not all of whom
need to be killed.

Zane


		
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SubjectRe: [dq] Demonic Church + Ducal Decree
FromKharsis
DateTue, 06 Dec 2005 22:38:56 +1300
Zane Mendoza wrote:

>needs to get involved, and find out whats going on.
>
>4> The Temple offered to add substantial monetary
>contributions to assist in the Duke's reign, with
>agreements to not do any overtly evil acts.
>
>  
>
This approach makes sense as the smarter PoD's will have realised that a 
world of Undead limits ones agents considerabley.  Self intrest in this 
case would be to help defeat the DC.  This has the result of PoL's and 
PoD's wanting the same result for different reasons :-)

Scott Whitaker


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