Subject[dq] DQ GM Guide 2005
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 09:26:23 +1200
Hi All,

Small change in plans, we will be getting the book spiral bound and not fast
back bound.
The page count has gone up and the price will be about the same.

I will product 20 copys for the guild meeting - 15 people are on the list on
the wiki, + William.
If you wish to get a copy please put it on the wiki or email me.

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 09:37:52 +1300 
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Is this going to be in a form that can have pages swapped out?

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:26
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Small change in plans, we will be getting the book spiral 
> bound and not fast
> back bound.
> The page count has gone up and the price will be about the same.
> 
> I will product 20 copys for the guild meeting - 15 people are 
> on the list on
> the wiki, + William.
> If you wish to get a copy please put it on the wiki or email me.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jonathan Bean
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Is this going to be in a form that can have pages swapped out?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Jonathan Bean - TME [<A HREF="mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:26</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Hi All,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Small change in plans, we will be getting the book spiral </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; bound and not fast</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; back bound.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; The page count has gone up and the price will be about the same.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; I will product 20 copys for the guild meeting - 15 people are </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; on the list on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; the wiki, + William.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; If you wish to get a copy please put it on the wiki or email me.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Kind regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Jonathan Bean</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 09:43:16 +1200
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RE: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005I guess so - if you take the book and pages to a
copy centre they should be able to (on a machine) punch a page and swapped
in and out.
Its normal plastic spiral bound (in black).

Jonathan

  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
  Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 8:38 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005


  Is this going to be in a form that can have pages swapped out?

  Cheers
  Errol

  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]
  > Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:26
  > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  > Subject: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005
  >
  >
  > Hi All,
  >
  > Small change in plans, we will be getting the book spiral
  > bound and not fast
  > back bound.
  > The page count has gone up and the price will be about the same.
  >
  > I will product 20 copys for the guild meeting - 15 people are
  > on the list on
  > the wiki, + William.
  > If you wish to get a copy please put it on the wiki or email me.
  >
  > Kind regards,
  >
  > Jonathan Bean
  >
  >
  > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
  >

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [dq] DQ GM Guide 2005</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599054121-08122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
guess so - if you take the book and pages to a copy centre they should =
be able=20
to (on a machine) punch a page and swapped&nbsp;in and =
out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599054121-08122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Its=20
normal plastic spiral bound (in black).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599054121-08122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599054121-08122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D599054121-08122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Errol =
Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Friday, 9 December 2005 8:38 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] DQ GM Guide=20
  2005<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Is this going to be in a form that can have pages =
swapped=20
  out?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  From: Jonathan Bean - TME [<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>]</FONT> =

  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:26</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
Subject: [dq] DQ=20
  GM Guide 2005</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Hi All,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Small change in plans, we will be =
getting the=20
  book spiral </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; bound and not fast</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; back bound.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; The page =
count has gone=20
  up and the price will be about the same.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; I will product 20 copys for the guild =
meeting -=20
  15 people are </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; on the list on</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; the wiki, + William.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; If =
you wish to=20
  get a copy please put it on the wiki or email me.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Kind regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Jonathan Bean</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -- to =
unsubscribe=20
  notify <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A=
>=20
  --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
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Subject[dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 11:30:58 +1300 (NZDT)
Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar allowance
for alternate Spec Grev tables.

I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.

Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.

To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions. 
I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 11:36:57 +1300
Cant GM's just do that anyway? Why waste time voting in/rejecting a specific ruling that gms can use their own house rules? Most GM's I have played under use their own "house rules" to a greater or lesser extent. 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues


Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar allowance
for alternate Spec Grev tables.

I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.

Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.

To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions. 
I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 11:48:28 +1300 (NZDT)
Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.  It is usually expected that
they notify their players of these changes.

Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is specifically allowed for in
the rules.
Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec Grev tables are not.

Officially allowing it will not take much time, it is not a big issue.

Do you have any objection to it you would like to raise?

NZ said:
> Cant GM's just do that anyway? Why waste time voting in/rejecting a specific ruling that gms can
> use their own house rules? Most GM's I have played under use their own "house rules" to a
> greater or lesser extent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
>
>
> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar
> allowance for alternate Spec Grev tables.
>
> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.
>
> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the
> one Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
>
> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
>  I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromSimpson
\ Mark\ \(NZ\)
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 11:51:40 +1300
No objection, other than a general feeling that theres a danger of DQ dieing a slow death by committee if we try to over regulate eveything.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:48 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues


Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.  It is usually expected that
they notify their players of these changes.

Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is specifically allowed for in
the rules.
Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec Grev tables are not.

Officially allowing it will not take much time, it is not a big issue.

Do you have any objection to it you would like to raise?

NZ said:
> Cant GM's just do that anyway? Why waste time voting in/rejecting a specific ruling that gms can
> use their own house rules? Most GM's I have played under use their own "house rules" to a
> greater or lesser extent.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
>
>
> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar
> allowance for alternate Spec Grev tables.
>
> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.
>
> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the
> one Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
>
> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
>  I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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Subject[dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
FromMichael Parkinson
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:20:28 +1300
Dear all,

Related to this is the excessive tameness of the fumble table -- feel free to blame me.  The first concept , that weapons swung in combat do not *readily* disintegrate or shatter was & is valid.  However we may wish to tweak the results so that *intuitively* valid results (e.g. wooden haft splits or breaks) are more likely.

The second concept was also sound but, from several years of playtesting, it seems that the balance is probably inappropriate.  In great part, the existing table was constructed on the theory that people with *really* low initiative should have vicious fumbles  (but there still aren't enough of those), but people innately skilled & trained would be less likely to do stupid stuff -- although at the time of the tabulation, I failed to realise how high a moderate PC's IV typically is ... so most fumbles are non-events.

If other people think that this section needs spicing up, I would be happy to coordinate.

regds, Michael
(m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> 
> 
> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed 
> but there is not a similar allowance
> for alternate Spec Grev tables.
> 
> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec 
> Grev tables.
> 
> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more 
> colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
> Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
> 
> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec 
> Grev table, nor his other suggestions. 
> I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec 
> grev tables.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:56:27 +1300
I think part of the reason alternate backfire tables are more common is
because Planes or areas with altered mana or differing magical effects are
common. In a place magic  is weird you expect backfires to be weird too.
Changing the spec grev effects is a little different, points still pierce,
edges still cut and blows still crush. About all you can change is the
descriptions of the injury type a weapon does and the numbers to be rolled.
Most just stick to the table we have to save themselves work.
However tables that are better suited to the damage from and to eight legged
monsters or bites or blows from animal or fish forms are one ways I can see
of alternate tables being used.
If its specifically allowed in the rules it reminds people that they can do
this.
And who knows maybe some one will find a spec grev table that works better
than what we currently have.

Helen
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues


> Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.  It is
usually expected that
> they notify their players of these changes.
>
> Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is
specifically allowed for in
> the rules.
> Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec
Grev tables are not.
>
> Officially allowing it will not take much time, it is not a big issue.
>
> Do you have any objection to it you would like to raise?
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromMartin Dickson
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:49:17 +1300
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On 12/9/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.  It is
> usually expected that
> they notify their players of these changes.


Is it worth adding a note to the intro section of the next rulebook and/or
the player's guide around these house rules?

It could be taken care of by simply stating that GMs can and do play varian=
t
rules. The backfire table is a common example, less common ones are Spc
Grevs, Fear results, Initiative, etc. Ask your GM what variants they play.

Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is
> specifically allowed for in the rules.


It doesn't need to be explicitly allowed as GM can and do play variants of
all sorts and are not censured for it -- a specific warning to players is O=
K
-- but specific "permission" for GMs is not warranted.

Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec
> Grev tables are not.


Fine -- remove the explict permission for Backfire changes and the implict
lack of permission for Spec Grev changes goes with it. Add intro section
warning of GM variants. Seems the lowest overhead approach.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/9/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.&nbsp;&nb=
sp;It is usually expected that<br>they notify their players of these change=
s.</blockquote><div><br>Is it worth adding a note to the intro section of t=
he next rulebook and/or the player's guide around these house rules?
<br><br>It could be taken care of by simply stating that GMs can and do pla=
y variant rules. The backfire table is a common example, less common ones a=
re Spc Grevs, Fear results, Initiative, etc. Ask your GM what variants they=
 play.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Usi=
ng alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is specifica=
lly allowed for in the rules.
</blockquote><div><br>It doesn't need to be explicitly allowed as GM can an=
d do play variants of all sorts and are not censured for it -- a specific w=
arning to players is OK -- but specific &quot;permission&quot; for GMs is n=
ot warranted.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Bec=
ause it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec Grev=
 tables are not.
</blockquote><div><br>Fine -- remove the explict permission for Backfire ch=
anges and the implict lack of permission for Spec Grev changes goes with it=
. Add intro section warning of GM variants. Seems the lowest overhead appro=
ach.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:54:28 +1300 
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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The Rules are also a good place to put design guidelines for alternative
forms (as is done for Backfires).

Minor point: I wonder however if the default tables themselves are not a
better place to put the bit about alternatives - they are looked at much
more often than the rules proper!

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Helen Saggers [mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 12:56
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> 
> 
> I think part of the reason alternate backfire tables are more 
> common is
> because Planes or areas with altered mana or differing 
> magical effects are
> common. In a place magic  is weird you expect backfires to be 
> weird too.
> Changing the spec grev effects is a little different, points 
> still pierce,
> edges still cut and blows still crush. About all you can change is the
> descriptions of the injury type a weapon does and the numbers 
> to be rolled.
> Most just stick to the table we have to save themselves work.
> However tables that are better suited to the damage from and 
> to eight legged
> monsters or bites or blows from animal or fish forms are one 
> ways I can see
> of alternate tables being used.
> If its specifically allowed in the rules it reminds people 
> that they can do
> this.
> And who knows maybe some one will find a spec grev table that 
> works better
> than what we currently have.
> 
> Helen
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>
> To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> 
> 
> > Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the 
> rules.  It is
> usually expected that
> > they notify their players of these changes.
> >
> > Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is
> specifically allowed for in
> > the rules.
> > Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that 
> alternate Spec
> Grev tables are not.
> >
> > Officially allowing it will not take much time, it is not a 
> big issue.
> >
> > Do you have any objection to it you would like to raise?
> >
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The Rules are also a good place to put design =
guidelines for alternative forms (as is done for Backfires).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Minor point: I wonder however if the default tables =
themselves are not a better place to put the bit about alternatives - =
they are looked at much more often than the rules proper!</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Helen Saggers [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 12:56</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables =
added to Voting Issues</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I think part of the reason alternate backfire =
tables are more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; common is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; because Planes or areas with altered mana or =
differing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; magical effects are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; common. In a place magic&nbsp; is weird you =
expect backfires to be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; weird too.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Changing the spec grev effects is a little =
different, points </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; still pierce,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; edges still cut and blows still crush. About =
all you can change is the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; descriptions of the injury type a weapon does =
and the numbers </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to be rolled.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Most just stick to the table we have to save =
themselves work.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; However tables that are better suited to the =
damage from and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to eight legged</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; monsters or bites or blows from animal or fish =
forms are one </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ways I can see</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of alternate tables being used.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If its specifically allowed in the rules it =
reminds people </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that they can do</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And who knows maybe some one will find a spec =
grev table that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; works better</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; than what we currently have.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: &quot;Stephen Martin&quot; =
&lt;stephenm@castle.pointclark.net&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: &lt;dq@dq.sf.org.nz&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 11:48 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables =
added to Voting Issues</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Yes, in theory GMs can play their own =
variant of any of the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rules.&nbsp; It is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; usually expected that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; they notify their players of these =
changes.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Using alternate backfire tables has been =
common for some time and is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; specifically allowed for in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; the rules.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Because it is specifically allowed the =
implication is that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; alternate Spec</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Grev tables are not.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Officially allowing it will not take much =
time, it is not a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; big issue.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Do you have any objection to it you would =
like to raise?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
From
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:56:15 +1300
actually we are trying to deregulate here.


Ian
> 
> From: Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, "\ Mark\ \(NZ\)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>
> Date: 2005/12/09 Fri AM 11:51:40 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> 
> No objection, other than a general feeling that theres a danger of DQ dieing a slow death by committee if we try to over regulate eveything.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:48 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> 
> 
> Yes, in theory GMs can play their own variant of any of the rules.  It is usually expected that
> they notify their players of these changes.
> 
> Using alternate backfire tables has been common for some time and is specifically allowed for in
> the rules.
> Because it is specifically allowed the implication is that alternate Spec Grev tables are not.
> 
> Officially allowing it will not take much time, it is not a big issue.
> 
> Do you have any objection to it you would like to raise?
> 
> NZ said:
> > Cant GM's just do that anyway? Why waste time voting in/rejecting a specific ruling that gms can
> > use their own house rules? Most GM's I have played under use their own "house rules" to a
> > greater or lesser extent.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Stephen Martin
> > Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> >
> >
> > Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar
> > allowance for alternate Spec Grev tables.
> >
> > I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.
> >
> > Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the
> > one Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
> >
> > To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
> >  I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.
> >
> > Cheers, Stephen.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
From
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:01:07 +1300
yes please.
amusing rather than devastating effects would be good. weapon becomes unprepared is always a useful thing, even off-hand weapon becomes unprepared is good (ie you really fouled yourself, over ballanced or something and now you are out of step with the opponent.

It is a fumble rather than a suicide table. So to me most of the outcomes should reflect a weapon or limb being out of place.

Ian

> 
> From: Michael Parkinson <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
> Date: 2005/12/09 Fri PM 12:20:28 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> Related to this is the excessive tameness of the fumble table -- feel free to blame me.  The first concept , that weapons swung in combat do not *readily* disintegrate or shatter was & is valid.  However we may wish to tweak the results so that *intuitively* valid results (e.g. wooden haft splits or breaks) are more likely.
> 
> The second concept was also sound but, from several years of playtesting, it seems that the balance is probably inappropriate.  In great part, the existing table was constructed on the theory that people with *really* low initiative should have vicious fumbles  (but there still aren't enough of those), but people innately skilled & trained would be less likely to do stupid stuff -- although at the time of the tabulation, I failed to realise how high a moderate PC's IV typically is ... so most fumbles are non-events.
> 
> If other people think that this section needs spicing up, I would be happy to coordinate.
> 
> regds, Michael
> (m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz)
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> > Stephen Martin
> > Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
> >
> >
> > Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed
> > but there is not a similar allowance
> > for alternate Spec Grev tables.
> >
> > I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec
> > Grev tables.
> >
> > Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more
> > colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
> > Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
> >
> > To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec
> > Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
> > I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec
> > grev tables.
> >
> > Cheers, Stephen.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 12:55:01 +1200
Hi All,

Some characters have items which work with the Spec Grev Table number
system. A change in this would in-directly change the items.

Jonathan Bean

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:31 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues


Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is
not a similar allowance
for alternate Spec Grev tables.

I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.

Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev
tables as per the one
Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.

To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor
his other suggestions.
I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:28:20 +1300
Your right weapons don't readily disintegrate, swords and pole or hafted
weapons do acquire nicks or get bent and can with metal fatigue or over
stress brake. However most of this sort of weapon damage is not from
fumbles, unless you hit a wall, tree or rock.
Most damage that results from fumbling or lack of skill is not to the
weapons which are made to take much abuse, but to the welder.
Pulled muscles; self inflicted bruises to limbs and head; bruised, skinned,
and sometimes broken fingers, a drop in def and/or IV due to being off
balance and just plain dropping it, are more the sorts of things Id expect
(have experienced) as the results of messing up with a weapon.

All weapons are dangerous an out of control one is even more so, you can't
tell who its going to hit or where.
That's why for reinactors a fighters need for control is so heavily stressed
then we just have to worry about unforeseeable accidents.

Helen


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Parkinson" <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables


Dear all,

Related to this is the excessive tameness of the fumble table -- feel free
to blame me.  The first concept , that weapons swung in combat do not
*readily* disintegrate or shatter was & is valid.  However we may wish to
tweak the results so that *intuitively* valid results (e.g. wooden haft
splits or breaks) are more likely.

The second concept was also sound but, from several years of playtesting, it
seems that the balance is probably inappropriate.  In great part, the
existing table was constructed on the theory that people with *really* low
initiative should have vicious fumbles  (but there still aren't enough of
those), but people innately skilled & trained would be less likely to do
stupid stuff -- although at the time of the tabulation, I failed to realise
how high a moderate PC's IV typically is ... so most fumbles are non-events.

If other people think that this section needs spicing up, I would be happy
to coordinate.

regds, Michael
(m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
>
>
> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed
> but there is not a similar allowance
> for alternate Spec Grev tables.
>
> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec
> Grev tables.
>
> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more
> colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
> Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
>
> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec
> Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
> I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec
> grev tables.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:34:52 +1300
Stephen hasn't said throw out the table he has said specifically allow
alternates, in the case of such Items it would be up to the GM and the
player to work out what happens, which table to use, as they would now if it
was a just done under the  house rules allowance.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Bean - TME" <Jonathan@tme.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues


> Hi All,
>
> Some characters have items which work with the Spec Grev Table number
> system. A change in this would in-directly change the items.
>
> Jonathan Bean
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:21:54 +1300 (NZDT)
Most of these items reference specific Spec Grev numbers because they apply to specific body parts.

E.g. No instant death from 13(?) because your brain is now safely at home in a jar - don't all
adventurers have this as standard kit?.

Easy enough to translate into a new table - a spec grev to the brain will have minimal effect.


Jonathan Bean - TME said:
> Hi All,
>
> Some characters have items which work with the Spec Grev Table number system. A change in this
> would in-directly change the items.
>
> Jonathan Bean
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Stephen Martin
> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 10:31 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
>
>
> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed but there is not a similar
> allowance
> for alternate Spec Grev tables.
>
> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec Grev tables.
>
> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more colourful Spec Grev tables as per the
> one
> Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
>
> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
> I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec grev tables.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
FromMartin Dickson
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:27:13 +1300
------=_Part_3860_8802829.1134088033761
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 12/9/05, Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net> wrote:
>
>
> Easy enough to translate into a new table - a spec grev to the brain will
> have minimal effect.


'course, if you want to be a really mad bugger (or, ahem, represent the
maddness of a shaper) you can always build a magic item that protects
against any Spec Grev roll than ends in "3". :-)

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On 12/9/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Stephen Martin</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:stephenm@castle.pointclark.net">stephenm@castle.pointclark.net</a>&=
gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0p=
t 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Easy enough to translate into a new table - a spec grev to the brain wi=
ll have minimal effect.</blockquote><div><br>'course, if you want to be a r=
eally mad bugger (or, ahem, represent the maddness of a shaper) you can alw=
ays build a magic item that protects against any Spec Grev roll than ends i=
n &quot;3&quot;. :-)
<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_3860_8802829.1134088033761--


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SubjectRe: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 9 Dec 2005 13:58:11 +1300 (NZDT)
It could do with a review, actual fumbles are very rare now and often ignored.

We need more weapons thrown away, embedded in the nearest foot, sunk up to the hilt in the nearest
healer, tangled up in the backpack that someone carelessly discarded as they charged into combat,
etc.
Pure damage to people and/or weapons is ok but putting the wielder into an embarassing situation
is much more fun.


Michael Parkinson said:
> Dear all,
>
> Related to this is the excessive tameness of the fumble table -- feel free to blame me.  The
> first concept , that weapons swung in combat do not *readily* disintegrate or shatter was & is
> valid.  However we may wish to tweak the results so that *intuitively* valid results (e.g.
> wooden haft splits or breaks) are more likely.
>
> The second concept was also sound but, from several years of playtesting, it seems that the
> balance is probably inappropriate.  In great part, the existing table was constructed on the
> theory that people with *really* low initiative should have vicious fumbles  (but there still
> aren't enough of those), but people innately skilled & trained would be less likely to do stupid
> stuff -- although at the time of the tabulation, I failed to realise how high a moderate PC's IV
> typically is ... so most fumbles are non-events.
>
> If other people think that this section needs spicing up, I would be happy to coordinate.
>
> regds, Michael
> (m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz)
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Stephen Martin
>> Sent: Friday, 9 December 2005 11:31 a.m.
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: [dq] Alternate Spec Grev Tables added to Voting Issues
>>
>>
>> Currently alternate Backfire tables are specifically allowed
>> but there is not a similar allowance
>> for alternate Spec Grev tables.
>>
>> I have proposed that a similar allowance be stated for Spec
>> Grev tables.
>>
>> Then GMs who want to can spice up their world with more
>> colourful Spec Grev tables as per the one
>> Andrew posted to the list a couple of weeks ago.
>>
>> To be explicitly clear - I am not proposing Andrew's Spec
>> Grev table, nor his other suggestions.
>> I am just proposaing that we officially allow alternate spec
>> grev tables.
>>
>> Cheers, Stephen.
>>
>>
>> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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SubjectRe: [dq] On a related matter -- fumble tables
FromMichael Woodhams
DateFri, 09 Dec 2005 14:15:29 +1300
On Fri, 2005-12-09 at 13:58, Stephen Martin wrote:
> It could do with a review, actual fumbles are very rare now and often ignored.
> 
> We need more weapons thrown away, embedded in the nearest foot, sunk up to the hilt in the nearest
> healer, tangled up in the backpack that someone carelessly discarded as they charged into combat,
> etc.

Some could be circumstance-dependent.

"You twist your ankle on rough ground/tree root/corpse on the floor or
similar. Ignore this fumble if there are no such obstacles"


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