All right.

The reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, the skills of
the DM, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other options
players who have these spells have that makes sense.

Phil made the point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire meant that
they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, because that was
the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's was
discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that the DM may
have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what their
skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a skillful DM.

This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this thread. So, it
seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.

Jim.


Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> Who are you to decide my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't be
> bothered to argue intellgently against my points but thats just making you
> more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading or just
> keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the decency to
> explain why you think my points don't count.
>
> Dylan
>
>
> On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I wonder if
> > you are
> > doing it intentionally.
> >
> > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > If GMs are making scenarios where you have to doubt the players sanity
> > when
> > > they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you have to
> > > question the DMs skills.
> >
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

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Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the party
is sadly lower in level or they should have other options available to them
which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were enganging and
killing threats to her then they were in fact taking part in combat. If the=
y
weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were using
there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same fasion as the=
y
would have been had they not had a large blast mage and found themselves in
that situation.

In almost any combat there are people who are better suited to combat while
not engaged. The party should always take account of this and work
appropriatly to stop them being engaged. This person may be your healer or
they may have other utility spells. They may simply be your military
scientist and the group prefers to keep there time out and other bonus's
from having them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties do the
same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic and
doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule change needs to take
place. I tend to find the extra problems that have to be overcome make it
more fun.

My comments are relevant even if you can't always understand why they are.
While you have every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be expressed
so insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you make
have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of being less
than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such a comment would b=
e
both unfair and unnecesary.

Dylan

On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> All right.
>
> The reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, the
> skills of
> the DM, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other options
> players who have these spells have that makes sense.
>
> Phil made the point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire
> meant that
> they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, because tha=
t
> was
> the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's was
> discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that the D=
M
> may
> have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what their
> skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a skillful DM.
>
> This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this thread. So,
> it
> seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
>
> Jim.
>
>
> Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
>
> > Who are you to decide my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't be
> > bothered to argue intellgently against my points but thats just making
> you
> > more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading or
> just
> > keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the decency to
> > explain why you think my points don't count.
> >
> > Dylan
> >
> >
> > On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I wonder
> if
> > > you are
> > > doing it intentionally.
> > >
> > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > If GMs are making scenarios where you have to doubt the players
> sanity
> > > when
> > > > they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you have t=
o
> > > > question the DMs skills.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > >
> > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > >
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the =
party is sadly lower in level or they should have other options available t=
o them which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were enganging a=
nd killing threats to her then they were in fact taking part in combat. If =
they weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were usin=
g there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same fasion as t=
hey would have been had they not had a large blast mage and found themselve=
s in that situation.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>In almost any combat there are people who are better suited to combat =
while not engaged. The party should always take account of this and work ap=
propriatly to stop them being engaged. This person may be your healer or th=
ey may have other utility spells. They may simply be your military scientis=
t and the group prefers to keep there time out and other bonus's from havin=
g them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties do the same thin=
g that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic and doesn't norm=
aly detract from the fun so much a rule change needs to take place. I tend =
to find the extra problems that have to be overcome make it more fun.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>My comments are relevant even if you can't always understand why they =
are. While you have every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be expre=
ssed so insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you ma=
ke have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of being le=
ss than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such a comment woul=
d be both unfair and unnecesary.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan<br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>=
</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.a=
c.nz
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">All right.<br><br>The reason it'=
s irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, the skills of<br>the DM=
, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other options
<br>players who have these spells have that makes sense.<br><br>Phil made t=
he point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire meant that<br>th=
ey were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, because that wa=
s
<br>the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's wa=
s<br>discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that th=
e DM may<br>have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter =
what their
<br>skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a skillful D=
M.<br><br>This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this thr=
ead. So, it<br>seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
<br><br>Jim.<br><br><br>Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow=
@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt; Who are you to decid=
e my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't be<br>&gt; bothered to argue =
intellgently against my points but thats just making you
<br>&gt; more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading=
 or just<br>&gt; keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have th=
e decency to<br>&gt; explain why you think my points don't count.<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Dylan<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 12/14/05, <a href=3D"mailto:raro0=
02@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
aro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; =
&gt;
<br>&gt; &gt; Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. =
I wonder if<br>&gt; &gt; you are<br>&gt; &gt; doing it intentionally.<br>&g=
t; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gm=
ail.com">
msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; If GMs are ma=
king scenarios where you have to doubt the players sanity<br>&gt; &gt; when=
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe=
 you have to
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; question the DMs skills.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&g=
t; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; -- to unsubscribe notify=
 mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz
</a> --<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br><=
/blockquote></div><br>

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The thread was started by people who feel that way. Saydarr never casts anything
else, really. Lath sometimes casts Knockout Gas, but mostly uses Whirlwind
Vortex. Amber never casts anything else other then Hellfire, and the same with
Father Rowan.

Fire mages have fewer issues with these spells, because they can cast spells of
similar power but differing tactical properties. Dragonflames has a different
tactical effect than Fireball and so does Hellfire. There is even a case to
cast Bolt of Fire, on occasion, because of the FT cost, range and targeting
precision. It is not the case with Wiccans, Necromancers or Air mages.

When the tactical utility of one spell supervenes all others in most situations,
then it is boring. That is the issue. Not the relative toughness of the spell,
or which spell is the best/toughest or which will wipe out the entire party. It
is about spells so much more tactically effective than all of the others that
there is no utility in casting anything else.

And, the fact is that if players are complaining about they don't have a choice,
then they probably don't have a choice.

Discussions on whether or not the spells are too tough or if another player
thinks that they have choices is just irrelevant. At the end of the day, a
group of people are telling us that they have a problem with lack of fun. And,
unless there is something very odd going on, our aim is to maximise the fun for
everyone concerned.

This shouldn't be a debate about whether or not these players are telling the
truth. We must assume that they are. The debate, if there is one, is on what
we're going to do about it. If these players are saying this, and they seem
rational, then we must address it.

Arguing that it's not a problem is missing the point. Again.

Jim

Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> I don't think the spell restricts choices. They don't have to cast it
> despite pressure to do so. Its one more option. How many people in this
> discusion really feel that they would /HAVE/ to cast one of these spells if
> they had it?
>
> Dylan
>
>
> On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Quoting William Dymock <dworkin@ihug.co.nz>:
> >
> >
> > > The complaint initially was about people with zorch spells only having
> > one
> > > real option in combat.
> >
> > Yes, William. Please stick to that issue. If you want to talk about how
> > the
> > spell is or is not balanced, or advanced tactical play, feel free to start
> > another thread.
> >
> > Jim.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

To define evil is to open a can of worms, as it is to define good. If we
establish a lexical definition of these things, then we are setting ourselves
up for rules lawyering to no obvious advantage.

The very first hurdle to be overcome would be whether or not there is absolute
good and absolute evil, and if there are such things, then we might have to say
what they might be. And, when you define what is good or evil, you would have
to be careful that you were not defining what is not good or not evil.

If we decided that there is no such thing as absolute good or evil, then we
might consider that it is, O, let's say, relative to a given culture, and that
means that good or evil could be redefined in any way at all, because there
could always be a situation in some culture where a given act might not be
considered evil (or on the other hand,  good). So, one wonders how far ahead we
are.

If we leave the issue of what good and evil is to DMs to work out on their own,
then there may be some inconsistency, but in general things will tend to
gravitate around a bunch of mores that we are familiar with. With all of its
fuzziness and uncertainty, it is a reasonable model of how such things work in
reality.

Jim
Quoting Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>:

> At 13:15 15/12/05, you wrote:
> >Given that the Demons are Evil (one of the few points everyone agreed
> >on) I just wondered what Evil is.
>
> I guess in that case, we have to go the moral route. As I see it,
> evil are acts that would adversely affect anyone else, i.e. killing,
> lying, stealing, that sort of thing. Selfish acts basically and
> that's what I see the PoD doing, encouraging the Me first attitude in
> order to get ahead of the others regardless of the consequences.
>
> The PoL, on the other hand, have a moral code that they would follow,
> although it can be difficult to perceive by outsiders.
>
> That's my opinion anyway,
>
> Keith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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I don't have any of these spells (which arguably makes me biased) but I
think that people who have taken the time and effort to obtain them might
argue you're spoiling there fun by changing or removing or "nurfing" them. =
I
haven't been on this list long but I'd hate to think that the whole list
listened to the vocal minorities just because they're the loudest. Why not
make a poll. If the numbers show up with a reasonable majority on one side
we might have to change them but if most people want them to stay the same
then lets not mess with them. Its easy to say that these spells ruin people=
s
fun but I'd like to know if its just 2 or 3 or if we're dealing with even
say 20% of the people that play. There has to be a limit to how few people
can change the rules because something messes with their fun if the change
is going to reduce vastly more peoples fun.

 While I'm not unsympathetic to the few who might feel these spells are
making combat less interesting for them I'm also sympathetic (arguably more
so) to the people who might lose out on enjoyment and spent more effort to
get the enjoyment.

Dylan


On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> The thread was started by people who feel that way. Saydarr never casts
> anything
> else, really. Lath sometimes casts Knockout Gas, but mostly uses Whirlwin=
d
> Vortex. Amber never casts anything else other then Hellfire, and the same
> with
> Father Rowan.
>
> Fire mages have fewer issues with these spells, because they can cast
> spells of
> similar power but differing tactical properties. Dragonflames has a
> different
> tactical effect than Fireball and so does Hellfire. There is even a case
> to
> cast Bolt of Fire, on occasion, because of the FT cost, range and
> targeting
> precision. It is not the case with Wiccans, Necromancers or Air mages.
>
> When the tactical utility of one spell supervenes all others in most
> situations,
> then it is boring. That is the issue. Not the relative toughness of the
> spell,
> or which spell is the best/toughest or which will wipe out the entire
> party. It
> is about spells so much more tactically effective than all of the others
> that
> there is no utility in casting anything else.
>
> And, the fact is that if players are complaining about they don't have a
> choice,
> then they probably don't have a choice.
>
> Discussions on whether or not the spells are too tough or if another
> player
> thinks that they have choices is just irrelevant. At the end of the day, =
a
> group of people are telling us that they have a problem with lack of fun.
> And,
> unless there is something very odd going on, our aim is to maximise the
> fun for
> everyone concerned.
>
> This shouldn't be a debate about whether or not these players are telling
> the
> truth. We must assume that they are. The debate, if there is one, is on
> what
> we're going to do about it. If these players are saying this, and they
> seem
> rational, then we must address it.
>
> Arguing that it's not a problem is missing the point. Again.
>
> Jim
>
> Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
>
> > I don't think the spell restricts choices. They don't have to cast it
> > despite pressure to do so. Its one more option. How many people in this
> > discusion really feel that they would /HAVE/ to cast one of these spell=
s
> if
> > they had it?
> >
> > Dylan
> >
> >
> > On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Quoting William Dymock <dworkin@ihug.co.nz>:
> > >
> > >
> > > > The complaint initially was about people with zorch spells only
> having
> > > one
> > > > real option in combat.
> > >
> > > Yes, William. Please stick to that issue. If you want to talk about
> how
> > > the
> > > spell is or is not balanced, or advanced tactical play, feel free to
> start
> > > another thread.
> > >
> > > Jim.
> > >
> > >
> > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > >
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>I don't have any of these spells (which arguably makes me biased) but =
I think that people who have taken the time and effort to obtain them might=
 argue you're spoiling there fun by changing or removing or &quot;nurfing&q=
uot; them. I haven't been on this list long but I'd hate to think that the =
whole list listened to the vocal minorities just because they're the loudes=
t. Why not make a poll. If the numbers show up with a reasonable majority o=
n one side we might have to change them but if most people want them to sta=
y the same then lets not mess with them. Its easy to say that these spells =
ruin peoples fun but I'd like to know if its just 2 or 3 or if we're dealin=
g with even say 20% of the people that play. There has to be a limit to how=
 few people can change the rules because something messes with their fun if=
 the change is going to reduce vastly more peoples fun.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;While I'm not unsympathetic to the few who might feel these spel=
ls are making combat less interesting for them I'm also sympathetic (arguab=
ly more so) to the people who might lose out on enjoyment and spent more ef=
fort to get the enjoyment.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>=
</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.a=
c.nz
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">The thread was started by people=
 who feel that way. Saydarr never casts anything<br>else, really. Lath some=
times casts Knockout Gas, but mostly uses Whirlwind
<br>Vortex. Amber never casts anything else other then Hellfire, and the sa=
me with<br>Father Rowan.<br><br>Fire mages have fewer issues with these spe=
lls, because they can cast spells of<br>similar power but differing tactica=
l properties. Dragonflames has a different
<br>tactical effect than Fireball and so does Hellfire. There is even a cas=
e to<br>cast Bolt of Fire, on occasion, because of the FT cost, range and t=
argeting<br>precision. It is not the case with Wiccans, Necromancers or Air=
 mages.
<br><br>When the tactical utility of one spell supervenes all others in mos=
t situations,<br>then it is boring. That is the issue. Not the relative tou=
ghness of the spell,<br>or which spell is the best/toughest or which will w=
ipe out the entire party. It
<br>is about spells so much more tactically effective than all of the other=
s that<br>there is no utility in casting anything else.<br><br>And, the fac=
t is that if players are complaining about they don't have a choice,<br>
then they probably don't have a choice.<br><br>Discussions on whether or no=
t the spells are too tough or if another player<br>thinks that they have ch=
oices is just irrelevant. At the end of the day, a<br>group of people are t=
elling us that they have a problem with lack of fun. And,
<br>unless there is something very odd going on, our aim is to maximise the=
 fun for<br>everyone concerned.<br><br>This shouldn't be a debate about whe=
ther or not these players are telling the<br>truth. We must assume that the=
y are. The debate, if there is one, is on what
<br>we're going to do about it. If these players are saying this, and they =
seem<br>rational, then we must address it.<br><br>Arguing that it's not a p=
roblem is missing the point. Again.<br><br>Jim<br><br>Quoting RPer 4eva &lt=
;
<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>=
<br>&gt; I don't think the spell restricts choices. They don't have to cast=
 it<br>&gt; despite pressure to do so. Its one more option. How many people=
 in this
<br>&gt; discusion really feel that they would /HAVE/ to cast one of these =
spells if<br>&gt; they had it?<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Dylan<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt=
; On 12/14/05, <a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auck=
land.ac.nz
</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.a=
c.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Quoting William Dymock &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:dworkin@ihug.co.nz">dworkin@ihug.co.nz</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; &gt=
;
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; The complaint initially was about people wi=
th zorch spells only having<br>&gt; &gt; one<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; real option =
in combat.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Yes, William. Please stick to that iss=
ue. If you want to talk about how
<br>&gt; &gt; the<br>&gt; &gt; spell is or is not balanced, or advanced tac=
tical play, feel free to start<br>&gt; &gt; another thread.<br>&gt; &gt;<br=
>&gt; &gt; Jim.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; -- to unsubscribe no=
tify mailto:
<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<b=
r>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"m=
ailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquo=
te>
</div><br>

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What do you think this thread is about, Dylan? I'm reasonably certain that you
have missed the point entirely. It's not that they weren't engaged in the
story, and I never heard Phil once say anything denigratory about the DM or
about the other players. He was simply reporting that the presence of a highly
ranked Hellfire caster in the party meant that nothing else that the party did
was a better choice.

He was talking about a tactic that is so preeminent that no other choice was a
viable alternative. He was merely reporting the repetitious nature of tactical
play that Amber's spell forced them to accept, if they were to play their
character's rationally.

I would judge TDP Roberts to be of higher level than Amber. I don't know about
the rest of that party because I don't know who else was on it. But, it doesn't
matter what level they were with respect to Amber. It is the repetitiousness
that is at issue. You seem to be trying to guess that there was some kind of
other problem at work which caused the repetitiousness.

Without having been there.

I'm happy to accept Phil's word for it that it was because Amber's Hellfire was
so good an alternative.

Finally, it is not my obligation to find relevance in your posts. It is yours to
be relevant or to make it clear why they are relevant. This, you have signally
failed to do. I am not hurling abuse at you, I am reporting a fact.

You seem to be talking about relative toughness of the spell or the ability of
the DM or the relative toughness of the other characters. You seem not to
understand that the complaint comes from some players, and that, upon analysis,
there do seem to be few rational tactical alternatives.

Instead, you generate all of these unnecessary entities to explain what might be
happening, when we already have a cogent explanation. Why are we looking for
alternative explanations?

Jim.
Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the party
> is sadly lower in level or they should have other options available to them
> which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were enganging and
> killing threats to her then they were in fact taking part in combat. If they
> weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were using
> there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same fasion as they
> would have been had they not had a large blast mage and found themselves in
> that situation.
>
> In almost any combat there are people who are better suited to combat while
> not engaged. The party should always take account of this and work
> appropriatly to stop them being engaged. This person may be your healer or
> they may have other utility spells. They may simply be your military
> scientist and the group prefers to keep there time out and other bonus's
> from having them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties do the
> same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic and
> doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule change needs to take
> place. I tend to find the extra problems that have to be overcome make it
> more fun.
>
> My comments are relevant even if you can't always understand why they are.
> While you have every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be expressed
> so insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you make
> have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of being less
> than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such a comment would be
> both unfair and unnecesary.
>
> Dylan
>
> On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > All right.
> >
> > The reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, the
> > skills of
> > the DM, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other options
> > players who have these spells have that makes sense.
> >
> > Phil made the point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire
> > meant that
> > they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, because that
> > was
> > the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's was
> > discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that the DM
> > may
> > have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what their
> > skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a skillful DM.
> >
> > This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this thread. So,
> > it
> > seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
> >
> > Jim.
> >
> >
> > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Who are you to decide my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't be
> > > bothered to argue intellgently against my points but thats just making
> > you
> > > more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading or
> > just
> > > keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the decency to
> > > explain why you think my points don't count.
> > >
> > > Dylan
> > >
> > >
> > > On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I wonder
> > if
> > > > you are
> > > > doing it intentionally.
> > > >
> > > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> > > >
> > > > > If GMs are making scenarios where you have to doubt the players
> > sanity
> > > > when
> > > > > they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you have to
> > > > > question the DMs skills.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

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One more thought. Most people seem to agree that hellfire isn't too bad in
the fire college. Why not agree to leave at least the fire college version
alone then. Change it only for the wiccans. Personaly I don't think it need=
s
changing at all but if one has to be changed lets not change the other just
for the sake of it.

Dylan

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<div>One more thought. Most people seem to agree that hellfire isn't too ba=
d in the fire college. Why not agree to leave at least the fire college ver=
sion alone then. Change it only for the wiccans. Personaly I don't think it=
 needs changing at all but if one has to be changed lets not change the oth=
er just for the sake of it.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan</div>

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While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my post=
s
are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are truly
going to base this on a single party and a single example then yes I have t=
o
admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the rules and mess
with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd want more
data before I changed even a single college.

Dylan


On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> What do you think this thread is about, Dylan? I'm reasonably certain tha=
t
> you
> have missed the point entirely. It's not that they weren't engaged in the
> story, and I never heard Phil once say anything denigratory about the DM
> or
> about the other players. He was simply reporting that the presence of a
> highly
> ranked Hellfire caster in the party meant that nothing else that the part=
y
> did
> was a better choice.
>
> He was talking about a tactic that is so preeminent that no other choice
> was a
> viable alternative. He was merely reporting the repetitious nature of
> tactical
> play that Amber's spell forced them to accept, if they were to play their
> character's rationally.
>
> I would judge TDP Roberts to be of higher level than Amber. I don't know
> about
> the rest of that party because I don't know who else was on it. But, it
> doesn't
> matter what level they were with respect to Amber. It is the
> repetitiousness
> that is at issue. You seem to be trying to guess that there was some kind
> of
> other problem at work which caused the repetitiousness.
>
> Without having been there.
>
> I'm happy to accept Phil's word for it that it was because Amber's
> Hellfire was
> so good an alternative.
>
> Finally, it is not my obligation to find relevance in your posts. It is
> yours to
> be relevant or to make it clear why they are relevant. This, you have
> signally
> failed to do. I am not hurling abuse at you, I am reporting a fact.
>
> You seem to be talking about relative toughness of the spell or the
> ability of
> the DM or the relative toughness of the other characters. You seem not to
> understand that the complaint comes from some players, and that, upon
> analysis,
> there do seem to be few rational tactical alternatives.
>
> Instead, you generate all of these unnecessary entities to explain what
> might be
> happening, when we already have a cogent explanation. Why are we looking
> for
> alternative explanations?
>
> Jim.
> Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
>
> > Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the
> party
> > is sadly lower in level or they should have other options available to
> them
> > which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were enganging and
> > killing threats to her then they were in fact taking part in combat. If
> they
> > weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were using
> > there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same fasion as
> they
> > would have been had they not had a large blast mage and found themselve=
s
> in
> > that situation.
> >
> > In almost any combat there are people who are better suited to combat
> while
> > not engaged. The party should always take account of this and work
> > appropriatly to stop them being engaged. This person may be your healer
> or
> > they may have other utility spells. They may simply be your military
> > scientist and the group prefers to keep there time out and other bonus'=
s
> > from having them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties do
> the
> > same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic and
> > doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule change needs to tak=
e
> > place. I tend to find the extra problems that have to be overcome make
> it
> > more fun.
> >
> > My comments are relevant even if you can't always understand why they
> are.
> > While you have every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be
> expressed
> > so insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you mak=
e
> > have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of being
> less
> > than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such a comment
> would be
> > both unfair and unnecesary.
> >
> > Dylan
> >
> > On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > All right.
> > >
> > > The reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, the
> > > skills of
> > > the DM, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other
> options
> > > players who have these spells have that makes sense.
> > >
> > > Phil made the point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire
> > > meant that
> > > they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, because
> that
> > > was
> > > the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's
> was
> > > discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that
> the DM
> > > may
> > > have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what
> their
> > > skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a skillful
> DM.
> > >
> > > This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this thread.
> So,
> > > it
> > > seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
> > >
> > > Jim.
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > Who are you to decide my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't b=
e
> > > > bothered to argue intellgently against my points but thats just
> making
> > > you
> > > > more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading
> or
> > > just
> > > > keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the decency
> to
> > > > explain why you think my points don't count.
> > > >
> > > > Dylan
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I
> wonder
> > > if
> > > > > you are
> > > > > doing it intentionally.
> > > > >
> > > > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If GMs are making scenarios where you have to doubt the players
> > > sanity
> > > > > when
> > > > > > they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you
> have to
> > > > > > question the DMs skills.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> > >
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my=
 posts are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are =
truly going to base this on a single party and a single example then yes I =
have to admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the rules =
and mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd wan=
t more data before I changed even a single college.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>=
</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.a=
c.nz
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">What do you think this thread is=
 about, Dylan? I'm reasonably certain that you<br>have missed the point ent=
irely. It's not that they weren't engaged in the
<br>story, and I never heard Phil once say anything denigratory about the D=
M or<br>about the other players. He was simply reporting that the presence =
of a highly<br>ranked Hellfire caster in the party meant that nothing else =
that the party did
<br>was a better choice.<br><br>He was talking about a tactic that is so pr=
eeminent that no other choice was a<br>viable alternative. He was merely re=
porting the repetitious nature of tactical<br>play that Amber's spell force=
d them to accept, if they were to play their
<br>character's rationally.<br><br>I would judge TDP Roberts to be of highe=
r level than Amber. I don't know about<br>the rest of that party because I =
don't know who else was on it. But, it doesn't<br>matter what level they we=
re with respect to Amber. It is the repetitiousness
<br>that is at issue. You seem to be trying to guess that there was some ki=
nd of<br>other problem at work which caused the repetitiousness.<br><br>Wit=
hout having been there.<br><br>I'm happy to accept Phil's word for it that =
it was because Amber's Hellfire was
<br>so good an alternative.<br><br>Finally, it is not my obligation to find=
 relevance in your posts. It is yours to<br>be relevant or to make it clear=
 why they are relevant. This, you have signally<br>failed to do. I am not h=
urling abuse at you, I am reporting a fact.
<br><br>You seem to be talking about relative toughness of the spell or the=
 ability of<br>the DM or the relative toughness of the other characters. Yo=
u seem not to<br>understand that the complaint comes from some players, and=
 that, upon analysis,
<br>there do seem to be few rational tactical alternatives.<br><br>Instead,=
 you generate all of these unnecessary entities to explain what might be<br=
>happening, when we already have a cogent explanation. Why are we looking f=
or
<br>alternative explanations?<br><br>Jim.<br>Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt=
; Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the par=
ty
<br>&gt; is sadly lower in level or they should have other options availabl=
e to them<br>&gt; which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were =
enganging and<br>&gt; killing threats to her then they were in fact taking =
part in combat. If they
<br>&gt; weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were =
using<br>&gt; there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same=
 fasion as they<br>&gt; would have been had they not had a large blast mage=
 and found themselves in
<br>&gt; that situation.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; In almost any combat there are peo=
ple who are better suited to combat while<br>&gt; not engaged. The party sh=
ould always take account of this and work<br>&gt; appropriatly to stop them=
 being engaged. This person may be your healer or
<br>&gt; they may have other utility spells. They may simply be your milita=
ry<br>&gt; scientist and the group prefers to keep there time out and other=
 bonus's<br>&gt; from having them unengaged. In any case this means that ma=
ny parties do the
<br>&gt; same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tacti=
c and<br>&gt; doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule change ne=
eds to take<br>&gt; place. I tend to find the extra problems that have to b=
e overcome make it
<br>&gt; more fun.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; My comments are relevant even if you can=
't always understand why they are.<br>&gt; While you have every right to yo=
ur opinion it doesn't have to be expressed<br>&gt; so insultingly. To mirro=
r your actions I could claim that since you make
<br>&gt; have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of be=
ing less<br>&gt; than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such =
a comment would be<br>&gt; both unfair and unnecesary.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Dyla=
n
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On 12/16/05, <a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">=
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.=
nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; All =
right.
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; The reason it's irrelevant is because you are ta=
lking about, now, the<br>&gt; &gt; skills of<br>&gt; &gt; the DM, rather th=
an the issue at hand, which is about what other options<br>&gt; &gt; player=
s who have these spells have that makes sense.
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Phil made the point that the overwhelming utilit=
y of Amber's Hellfire<br>&gt; &gt; meant that<br>&gt; &gt; they were logica=
lly forced to prevent her from being engaged, because that<br>&gt; &gt; was
<br>&gt; &gt; the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of =
Amber's was<br>&gt; &gt; discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. =
Your comment that the DM<br>&gt; &gt; may<br>&gt; &gt; have been at fault i=
s not relevant because what does it matter what their
<br>&gt; &gt; skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a =
skillful DM.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; This is not the first irrelevant rem=
ark you have made on this thread. So,<br>&gt; &gt; it<br>&gt; &gt; seems to=
 me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Jim.<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; Quot=
ing RPer 4eva &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Who are you to decide my poin=
ts are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't be
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; bothered to argue intellgently against my points but tha=
ts just making<br>&gt; &gt; you<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; more irelevant. Please ei=
ther respond with something worth reading or<br>&gt; &gt; just<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the decency t=
o
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; explain why you think my points don't count.<br>&gt; &gt=
; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Dylan<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; =
&gt; &gt; On 12/14/05, <a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002=
@ec.auckland.ac.nz
</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.a=
c.nz</a>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt; wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &=
gt; Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I wonder
<br>&gt; &gt; if<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; you are<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; doin=
g it intentionally.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Quoting R=
Per 4eva &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com
</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If GMs are mak=
ing scenarios where you have to doubt the players<br>&gt; &gt; sanity<br>&g=
t; &gt; &gt; &gt; when<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; they do anything other t=
han protect the blast mage maybe you have to
<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; question the DMs skills.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jim<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -- to unsubscribe notify mail=
to:
<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<b=
r>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.=
nz">
dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;<br><br><br>-- to unsubs=
cribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@d=
q.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> I don't have any of these spells (which arguably makes me biased) but I
> think that people who have taken the time and effort to obtain them might
> argue you're spoiling there fun by changing or removing or "nurfing" them.

Are you not reading what I have just written?

The players who have these spells are finding it a bit on the dull side. They
are the ones who have this opinion.

Even if this discussion were about nerfing, you wouldn't have a point. The
reason that an ability is nerfed is because it makes for a better game. That's
why it's done. No one goes out of the way to ruin the fun of any player, unless
it contributes to a better game in general. In such cases where there is a case
to argue for this, then the voice of the affected players cannot have as much
weight as the reason for the nerfing.

The reason that Hellfire was nerfed was because it could kill an entire party
outright with one roll of the die. It would have to be a low roll, but such
rolls come along one in twenty. Over the course of a high level character's
career, they could reasonably expect it to happen many times.

Now, given that Hellfire can be protected against with Fire Armour and Armour of
Ice, there is probably better grounds to nerf Whirlwind Vortex and Necrosis,
but this never happened.

Not that it really matters in this discussion, because this is about finding
ways to make things a bit more attractive for someone with these abilities.

 I
> haven't been on this list long but I'd hate to think that the whole list
> listened to the vocal minorities just because they're the loudest. Why not
> make a poll. If the numbers show up with a reasonable majority on one side
> we might have to change them but if most people want them to stay the same
> then lets not mess with them. Its easy to say that these spells ruin peoples
> fun but I'd like to know if its just 2 or 3 or if we're dealing with even
> say 20% of the people that play. There has to be a limit to how few people
> can change the rules because something messes with their fun if the change
> is going to reduce vastly more peoples fun.

This isn't a democracy. If it were obvious that a rule was bad, then it would
change, regardless of what the playership at large feels. There is no way that
you can inflict a ruleset upon an unwilling DM because it doesn't matter what
is written in a book. The DM is the ultimate arbiter of reality. The rules can
only ever be a guideline.

There used to be a spell in the Mind college called (eventually)
Undetectability. This has been removed. The reason it was removed was because
it was a pain to administer. But, it was in the rules for about 20 years, I
think. Nevertheless, that spell was never happily used by any character I ever
adventured with. Shin Fayn told me that he never cast it any more, because the
NPCs always saw through it, and the players could never seem to make their PC
rolls to spot him. Silverfoam used to cast it very carefully, but may not have
it any longer. I once saw Starflower cast it on herself and it nearly killed
her.

DMs hated the spell because it forced them to make endless die rolls, and keep
track of big piles of information on who could see whom. It was hard enough as
a player. Eventually, I suppose, the players got tired of the way the spell
behaved poorly, and it was removed.


>
>  While I'm not unsympathetic to the few who might feel these spells are
> making combat less interesting for them I'm also sympathetic (arguably more
> so) to the people who might lose out on enjoyment and spent more effort to
> get the enjoyment.

It's not about nerfing the spells. I don't know why you think that that's what
is being considered. And, really, it's irrelevant to whom you are sympathetic.
It's not going to find a way to make things more exciting for them, is it?

Jim


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Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my posts
> are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are truly
> going to base this on a single party and a single example then yes I have to
> admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the rules and mess
> with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd want more
> data before I changed even a single college.

I don't know what you think you were replying to. We are not talking about a
single party and a single example. Phil made note of something that happened in
a recent game with Amber, agreeing with the repetitious nature of it. Other
players who have characters that have these abilities have complained about
them, as well. Andrew Luxton, Jono and George (when Dramus had Necrosis) said
that they tended to cast the spells repetitiously.

However, all it takes is to look at the colleges and see that the alternatives
are not great. One suggestion is that by lowering the effectiveness of these
spells, then the attractiveness of other alternatives becomes greater. And,
while that might work with Air and Necro magic, it would probably not have much
effect on Wiccans. Air has extensive half damage options, for example, whereas
Wiccans and Necros don't have any. On the other hand,  Necros have a number of
different attack options, one of them irresistable. Plus, Hellfire has already
been nerfed and counters for it exist inside two other colleges.

But, even so, it doesn't follow that to increase the fun value we have to reduce
what currently exists. We could do what we know to work in the Fire college and
raise a number of effects to be tougher, or include non-damage secondary
effects to some spells.

I, personally, favour leaving these spells pretty much as they are except to
make them single target, and creating a separate area of effect save for
nothing damage spell. I'm not completely wedded to this idea, though. Martin
had an idea of keeping the targets but dividing the damage over the number of
targets, so if
you inflict 42 points of damage, and you have 7 targets, you can choose inflict
6 points of damage on each of these targets, saving for half. It would,
perforce, become a single target spell unless you rolled special
damage.

I'm not wedded to any of these options. That's all they are at this
stage.

Jim.


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  William Dymock will shortly be married, and a few of us have disorganised
a suitably debauched farewell on December the 17th.

  And the first part of it is free and open to all-commers!

  From 11am on Saturday the 17th all and sundry are welcome to come to a
big-screen showing of Dune, followed by Ghostbusters.  If you or your
partner know William, we'd love to see you, regardless of whether you suffer
from cooties.

  You may bring some sossies for the barbie.

  The venue is - Westwind Cinema: 177 Riversdale Road, Avondale (off
rosebank road).

  We'll be moving to play laser strike and do a pub-crawl later in the day,
to which you also are invited, though the pub-crawl is likely to be
designated a guy-thang (unless you particulary impress William by, for
instance, torpedoing a large-serve-DB and telling a dirty joke).

  The organisers are:
  Ben Taberner - 021-520-650
  Mandos Mitchinson - 021-606-393
  Chris "Dog" Stott - 021-606-491
  =====
  Warning, prolonged use of a Zombie-Badger may result in Acne, Leprosy,
Global Warming, or the End of Time.
  =====

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1522" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>William Dymock will shortly be married, and a few of us have =
disorganised=20
  a suitably debauched farewell on December the 17th.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>And the first part of it is free and open to all-commers!</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>From 11am on Saturday the 17th all and sundry are welcome to come =
to a=20
  big-screen showing of Dune, followed by Ghostbusters.&nbsp; If you or =
your=20
  partner&nbsp;know William, we'd love to see you, regardless of whether =
you=20
  suffer from cooties.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>You may bring some sossies for the barbie.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The venue is - Westwind Cinema: 177 Riversdale Road, Avondale =
(off=20
  rosebank road).</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>We'll be moving to play laser strike and do a pub-crawl later =
in the=20
  day, to which you also are invited, though the pub-crawl is likely to =
be=20
  designated a guy-thang (unless you particulary impress William by, for =

  instance, torpedoing a large-serve-DB and telling a dirty joke).</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>The organisers are:</DIV>
  <DIV>Ben Taberner - 021-520-650<BR>Mandos Mitchinson - =
021-606-393<BR>Chris=20
  "Dog" Stott - 021-606-491</DIV>
  <DIV>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>Warning, prolonged use of a Zombie-Badger may =
result in Acne,=20
  Leprosy, Global Warming, or the End of=20
Time.<BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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> While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my
posts are in reply
> to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are truly going to base
this on a single
> party and a single example then yes I have to admit I wasn't there. But I
also wouldn't want
> to change the rules and mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single
parties experience.
> I'd want more data before I changed even a single college.

Dylan, the fact that you don't have all the data does not mean the problem
is not there, you need to go out and get that data. If you don't have the
data either go out and find it or leave the discussions to those who do.

To put is simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.

1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If they do then
unless the party is rediculously high level then they will all die. This
resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to make changes
that just don't make sence.

2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under
discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With necro there are
a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another league. there
is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This restricts players to
either not learn the spell with some artificial reason (3 necros I can think
of have done this), remove or change the spell (1 necro), or use the spell
but find combats increasingly boring (all the rest).

Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern to a number of
senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.

As to a proposed fix I think in the case of Necrosis the spell should be
made single target and a spell similar to current necrosis that only works
against undead added.
For Wicca, move hellfire to single target and add a multitarget resist for
none spell.
For fire make hellfire resist for none. There are plenty of other spells in
the college no more need to be added.
For Air I am not sure of a solution as I don't know the other attack spells
well enough.

Mandos
/s


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Several other examples have been presented in the course of this thread.
Most of the people involved in this discussion have been playing and GMing
DQ for 10 to 20 years and have a lot of personal experience playing, playing
with, or GMing characters with these spells highly ranked.
Ignoring information that doesn't suit your argument does not make your
argument stronger.

Cheers, Stephen.
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
RPer 4eva
  Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 1:42 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex and Hellfire?


  While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my
posts are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are
truly going to base this on a single party and a single example then yes I
have to admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the rules
and mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd want
more data before I changed even a single college.

  Dylan

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2769" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D334571619-15122005>Several other examples have been presented in =
the=20
course of this thread.&nbsp; Most of the people involved in this =
discussion have=20
been playing and GMing DQ for 10 to 20&nbsp;years and have a lot of =
personal=20
experience playing, playing with, or GMing&nbsp;characters with these =
spells=20
highly ranked.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D334571619-15122005>Ignoring information that doesn't suit your =
argument=20
does not make your argument stronger.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D334571619-15122005></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D334571619-15122005>Cheers, Stephen.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>RPer =
4eva<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Friday, 16 December 2005 1:42 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, =
Whirlwind=20
  Vortex and Hellfire?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each =
of my=20
  posts are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we =
are=20
  truly going to base this on a single party and a single example then =
yes I=20
  have to admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the =
rules and=20
  mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd =
want more=20
  data before I changed even a single college. </DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dylan<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Martin had an idea of keeping the targets but dividing the damage over th=
e
> number of
> targets, so if you inflict 42 points of damage, and you have 7 targets,
> you can choose inflict
> 6 points of damage on each of these targets, saving for half. It would,
> perforce, become a single target spell unless you rolled special
> damage.


Or limit yourself to only 2 targets and hit them with 21 each, etc.  Create=
s
some flexibility and forces some choice.  Anyway, just an idea.

I'm not wedded to any of these options. That's all they are at this stage.


Definitely.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Martin had=
 an idea of keeping the targets but dividing the damage over the number of<=
br>
targets, so if you inflict 42 points of damage, and you have 7 targets, you=
 can choose inflict<br>6 points of damage on each of these targets, saving =
for half. It would,<br>perforce, become a single target spell unless you ro=
lled special
<br>damage.</blockquote><div><br>Or limit yourself to only 2 targets and hi=
t them with 21 each, etc.&nbsp; Creates some flexibility and forces some ch=
oice.&nbsp; Anyway, just an idea. <br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt =
0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I'm not wedded to any of these options. That's all they are at this stage.<=
/blockquote><div><br>Definitely.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><b=
r>

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At 06:40 16/12/05, you wrote:
>As to a proposed fix I think in the case of Necrosis the spell should be
>made single target and a spell similar to current necrosis that only works
>against undead added.
>For Wicca, move hellfire to single target and add a multitarget resist for
>none spell.
>For fire make hellfire resist for none. There are plenty of other spells in
>the college no more need to be added.
>For Air I am not sure of a solution as I don't know the other attack spells
>well enough.

*applauds*

Finally somebody in this thread presents something concrete to chew on. I 
was getting rather tired of the veiled insults being tossed around to no 
great purpose other than filling up my mailbox.

Those are acceptable suggestions, and workable, I think. I'd still like to 
see necromancy with a spell that bolsters people against necromantic 
effects, including the live-draining effects of greater undead - call it 
something like Necromantic Armour.

For Air, there are indeed numerous attack spells - but no defence. I'd like 
to see Whirlwind vortex become lighting-based like most of the other 
air-college attacks, and to introduce a spell providing protection against 
lighting into the air generals. Umm.... A Chain Lightning spell would work 
as a replacement... targets would have to be within 30ft of eachother - 
first target gets a lot of damage, the others less, so picking your target 
order would be important. Resist for half work be fine. (Urgghhhh.... 
multi-target resist or die? That truly was broken. Mind you Windstorm is a 
killer, too. Decides to make her next villain an air mage.).

Jacqui

(Oh and the Air College should please donate Thunderclap to the Bards... 
since Air has an excess of attack spells and Bards something of a lack of 
them).


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I was replying to this thread not to define good or evil.

Mandos:	And before Jim lets loose a rant about how this is unimportant and
up to the DM at the time I am interested in what other people think and how
they play the them not in creating any kind of uniform direction for the
Demons.

the request was to explore a bit.  I agree its an edgy topic - and that its
important to stay aware we are talking about the game world not our real
life beliefs - something I'm not sure I did too well.

Hamish
 

Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 1:26 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Evil - Query (not rules or campaign rant)

To define evil is to open a can of worms, as it is to define good. If we
establish a lexical definition of these things, then we are setting
ourselves
up for rules lawyering to no obvious advantage.

The very first hurdle to be overcome would be whether or not there is
absolute
good and absolute evil, and if there are such things, then we might have to
say
what they might be. And, when you define what is good or evil, you would
have
to be careful that you were not defining what is not good or not evil.

If we decided that there is no such thing as absolute good or evil, then we
might consider that it is, O, let's say, relative to a given culture, and
that
means that good or evil could be redefined in any way at all, because there
could always be a situation in some culture where a given act might not be
considered evil (or on the other hand,  good). So, one wonders how far ahead
we
are.

If we leave the issue of what good and evil is to DMs to work out on their
own,
then there may be some inconsistency, but in general things will tend to
gravitate around a bunch of mores that we are familiar with. With all of its
fuzziness and uncertainty, it is a reasonable model of how such things work
in
reality.

Jim
Quoting Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>:

> At 13:15 15/12/05, you wrote:
> >Given that the Demons are Evil (one of the few points everyone agreed
> >on) I just wondered what Evil is.
>
> I guess in that case, we have to go the moral route. As I see it,
> evil are acts that would adversely affect anyone else, i.e. killing,
> lying, stealing, that sort of thing. Selfish acts basically and
> that's what I see the PoD doing, encouraging the Me first attitude in
> order to get ahead of the others regardless of the consequences.
>
> The PoL, on the other hand, have a moral code that they would follow,
> although it can be difficult to perceive by outsiders.
>
> That's my opinion anyway,
>
> Keith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Jim said:
>The thread was started by people who feel that way. Saydarr never casts
anything
>else, really. Lath sometimes casts Knockout Gas, but mostly uses Whirlwind
>Vortex. Amber never casts anything else other then Hellfire, and the same
with
>Father Rowan.

Lath is much happier now with Whirlwind Vortex!!!
In last nights game I found out that I dont have to fill all my targets
anymore!!!!

Lath


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Dylan I welcome your new and interesting view and posts on the list amongst
such 'old hands' (read tired and grumpy old fats) as others and myself.



It has been interesting to see your posts and it is good that you care. I am
pleased that you are signing your posts as this makes reading your posts
much easier for me.
On teh subject of Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex and Hellfire -

I ask you all again -
Please vote if they think that people are willing to fix these spells (what
ever that fix is).


Jonathan



  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
RPer 4eva
  Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 12:42 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex and Hellfire?


  While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each of my
posts are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we are
truly going to base this on a single party and a single example then yes I
have to admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the rules
and mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd want
more data before I changed even a single college.

  Dylan


  On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz > wrote:
    What do you think this thread is about, Dylan? I'm reasonably certain
that you
    have missed the point entirely. It's not that they weren't engaged in
the
    story, and I never heard Phil once say anything denigratory about the DM
or
    about the other players. He was simply reporting that the presence of a
highly
    ranked Hellfire caster in the party meant that nothing else that the
party did
    was a better choice.

    He was talking about a tactic that is so preeminent that no other choice
was a
    viable alternative. He was merely reporting the repetitious nature of
tactical
    play that Amber's spell forced them to accept, if they were to play
their
    character's rationally.

    I would judge TDP Roberts to be of higher level than Amber. I don't know
about
    the rest of that party because I don't know who else was on it. But, it
doesn't
    matter what level they were with respect to Amber. It is the
repetitiousness
    that is at issue. You seem to be trying to guess that there was some
kind of
    other problem at work which caused the repetitiousness.

    Without having been there.

    I'm happy to accept Phil's word for it that it was because Amber's
Hellfire was
    so good an alternative.

    Finally, it is not my obligation to find relevance in your posts. It is
yours to
    be relevant or to make it clear why they are relevant. This, you have
signally
    failed to do. I am not hurling abuse at you, I am reporting a fact.

    You seem to be talking about relative toughness of the spell or the
ability of
    the DM or the relative toughness of the other characters. You seem not
to
    understand that the complaint comes from some players, and that, upon
analysis,
    there do seem to be few rational tactical alternatives.

    Instead, you generate all of these unnecessary entities to explain what
might be
    happening, when we already have a cogent explanation. Why are we looking
for
    alternative explanations?

    Jim.
    Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

    > Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of the
party
    > is sadly lower in level or they should have other options available to
them
    > which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they were enganging and
    > killing threats to her then they were in fact taking part in combat.
If they
    > weren't then I question what they were doing. I am sure they were
using
    > there abilities and spells against the enemy in much the same fasion
as they
    > would have been had they not had a large blast mage and found
themselves in
    > that situation.
    >
    > In almost any combat there are people who are better suited to combat
while
    > not engaged. The party should always take account of this and work
    > appropriatly to stop them being engaged. This person may be your
healer or
    > they may have other utility spells. They may simply be your military
    > scientist and the group prefers to keep there time out and other
bonus's
    > from having them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties
do the
    > same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic
and
    > doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule change needs to
take
    > place. I tend to find the extra problems that have to be overcome make
it
    > more fun.
    >
    > My comments are relevant even if you can't always understand why they
are.
    > While you have every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be
expressed
    > so insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you
make
    > have twice not understood my comments you might make a habit of being
less
    > than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my making such a comment
would be
    > both unfair and unnecesary.
    >
    > Dylan
    >
    > On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
wrote:
    > >
    > > All right.
    > >
    > > The reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now,
the
    > > skills of
    > > the DM, rather than the issue at hand, which is about what other
options
    > > players who have these spells have that makes sense.
    > >
    > > Phil made the point that the overwhelming utility of Amber's
Hellfire
    > > meant that
    > > they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged,
because that
    > > was
    > > the best tactic. And,that every action alternative action of Amber's
was
    > > discarded because Hellfire is such a good choice. Your comment that
the DM
    > > may
    > > have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what
their
    > > skills were? The same kind of thing could have happened in a
skillful DM.
    > >
    > > This is not the first irrelevant remark you have made on this
thread. So,
    > > it
    > > seems to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident.
    > >
    > > Jim.
    > >
    > >
    > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
    > >
    > > > Who are you to decide my points are irrelevant? Prehaps you can't
be
    > > > bothered to argue intellgently against my points but thats just
making
    > > you
    > > > more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading
or
    > > just
    > > > keep your opinions to yourself. At least you could have the
decency to
    > > > explain why you think my points don't count.
    > > >
    > > > Dylan
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > On 12/14/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
    > > wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Or maybe not. The point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I
wonder
    > > if
    > > > > you are
    > > > > doing it intentionally.
    > > > >
    > > > > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com >:
    > > > >
    > > > > > If GMs are making scenarios where you have to doubt the
players
    > > sanity
    > > > > when
    > > > > > they do anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you
have to
    > > > > > question the DMs skills.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > Jim
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto: dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
    > > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto: dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
    > >
    >


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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dylan I =
welcome your=20
new and interesting view and posts on the list amongst such 'old hands' =
(read=20
tired and grumpy old fats) as others and myself.</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-AU"><?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-NZ><FONT=20
size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New =
Roman">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN=20
lang=3DEN-NZ=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-NZ; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; =
mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">It=20
has been interesting to see your posts and it is good that you care. I =
am=20
pleased that you&nbsp;are signing your posts as this makes reading your =
posts=20
much easier for me.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>On teh=20
subject of Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex and Hellfire -</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I ask=20
you all again -</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Please=20
vote if they think that people&nbsp;are willing to fix these spells =
(what ever=20
that fix is).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D746403521-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>RPer =
4eva<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Friday, 16 December 2005 12:42 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, =
Whirlwind=20
  Vortex and Hellfire?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>While I undertand your points prehaps you should read back. Each =
of my=20
  posts are in reply to and include the entire post I respond to. If we =
are=20
  truly going to base this on a single party and a single example then =
yes I=20
  have to admit I wasn't there. But I also wouldn't want to change the =
rules and=20
  mess with 3 or 4 colleges based on a single parties experience. I'd =
want more=20
  data before I changed even a single college. </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Dylan<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote>On 12/16/05, <B =
class=3Dgmail_sendername><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></=
B>=20
  &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz=20
  </A>&gt; wrote:</SPAN>=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
#ccc 1px solid">What=20
    do you think this thread is about, Dylan? I'm reasonably certain =
that=20
    you<BR>have missed the point entirely. It's not that they weren't =
engaged in=20
    the <BR>story, and I never heard Phil once say anything denigratory =
about=20
    the DM or<BR>about the other players. He was simply reporting that =
the=20
    presence of a highly<BR>ranked Hellfire caster in the party meant =
that=20
    nothing else that the party did <BR>was a better choice.<BR><BR>He =
was=20
    talking about a tactic that is so preeminent that no other choice =
was=20
    a<BR>viable alternative. He was merely reporting the repetitious =
nature of=20
    tactical<BR>play that Amber's spell forced them to accept, if they =
were to=20
    play their <BR>character's rationally.<BR><BR>I would judge TDP =
Roberts to=20
    be of higher level than Amber. I don't know about<BR>the rest of =
that party=20
    because I don't know who else was on it. But, it doesn't<BR>matter =
what=20
    level they were with respect to Amber. It is the repetitiousness =
<BR>that is=20
    at issue. You seem to be trying to guess that there was some kind=20
    of<BR>other problem at work which caused the =
repetitiousness.<BR><BR>Without=20
    having been there.<BR><BR>I'm happy to accept Phil's word for it =
that it was=20
    because Amber's Hellfire was <BR>so good an =
alternative.<BR><BR>Finally, it=20
    is not my obligation to find relevance in your posts. It is yours =
to<BR>be=20
    relevant or to make it clear why they are relevant. This, you have=20
    signally<BR>failed to do. I am not hurling abuse at you, I am =
reporting a=20
    fact. <BR><BR>You seem to be talking about relative toughness of the =
spell=20
    or the ability of<BR>the DM or the relative toughness of the other=20
    characters. You seem not to<BR>understand that the complaint comes =
from some=20
    players, and that, upon analysis, <BR>there do seem to be few =
rational=20
    tactical alternatives.<BR><BR>Instead, you generate all of these =
unnecessary=20
    entities to explain what might be<BR>happening, when we already have =
a=20
    cogent explanation. Why are we looking for <BR>alternative=20
    explanations?<BR><BR>Jim.<BR>Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</A>&gt;:<BR><=
BR>&gt;=20
    Well with all due respect I disagree with you. Either the rest of =
the party=20
    <BR>&gt; is sadly lower in level or they should have other options =
available=20
    to them<BR>&gt; which make sense as well. If by guarding Amber they =
were=20
    enganging and<BR>&gt; killing threats to her then they were in fact =
taking=20
    part in combat. If they <BR>&gt; weren't then I question what they =
were=20
    doing. I am sure they were using<BR>&gt; there abilities and spells =
against=20
    the enemy in much the same fasion as they<BR>&gt; would have been =
had they=20
    not had a large blast mage and found themselves in <BR>&gt; that=20
    situation.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; In almost any combat there are people who =
are=20
    better suited to combat while<BR>&gt; not engaged. The party should =
always=20
    take account of this and work<BR>&gt; appropriatly to stop them =
being=20
    engaged. This person may be your healer or <BR>&gt; they may have =
other=20
    utility spells. They may simply be your military<BR>&gt; scientist =
and the=20
    group prefers to keep there time out and other bonus's<BR>&gt; from =
having=20
    them unengaged. In any case this means that many parties do the =
<BR>&gt;=20
    same thing that Ambers party did. This is a normal and valid tactic=20
    and<BR>&gt; doesn't normaly detract from the fun so much a rule =
change needs=20
    to take<BR>&gt; place. I tend to find the extra problems that have =
to be=20
    overcome make it <BR>&gt; more fun.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; My comments are =
relevant=20
    even if you can't always understand why they are.<BR>&gt; While you =
have=20
    every right to your opinion it doesn't have to be expressed<BR>&gt; =
so=20
    insultingly. To mirror your actions I could claim that since you =
make=20
    <BR>&gt; have twice not understood my comments you might make a =
habit of=20
    being less<BR>&gt; than intelligent. I'm sure you can see how my =
making such=20
    a comment would be<BR>&gt; both unfair and =
unnecesary.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Dylan=20
    <BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On 12/16/05, <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A> =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&g=
t;=20
    wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; All right. <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; The=20
    reason it's irrelevant is because you are talking about, now, =
the<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; skills of<BR>&gt; &gt; the DM, rather than the issue at hand, =
which is=20
    about what other options<BR>&gt; &gt; players who have these spells =
have=20
    that makes sense. <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Phil made the point =
that the=20
    overwhelming utility of Amber's Hellfire<BR>&gt; &gt; meant =
that<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; they were logically forced to prevent her from being engaged, =
because=20
    that<BR>&gt; &gt; was <BR>&gt; &gt; the best tactic. And,that every =
action=20
    alternative action of Amber's was<BR>&gt; &gt; discarded because =
Hellfire is=20
    such a good choice. Your comment that the DM<BR>&gt; &gt; =
may<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    have been at fault is not relevant because what does it matter what =
their=20
    <BR>&gt; &gt; skills were? The same kind of thing could have =
happened in a=20
    skillful DM.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; This is not the first =
irrelevant=20
    remark you have made on this thread. So,<BR>&gt; &gt; it<BR>&gt; =
&gt; seems=20
    to me that it may be a habit, rather than an accident. <BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; Jim.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Quoting RPer 4eva =
&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</A>&gt;:<BR>&=
gt;=20
    &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Who are you to decide my points are =
irrelevant?=20
    Prehaps you can't be <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; bothered to argue =
intellgently=20
    against my points but thats just making<BR>&gt; &gt; you<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
    more irelevant. Please either respond with something worth reading=20
    or<BR>&gt; &gt; just<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; keep your opinions to =
yourself. At=20
    least you could have the decency to <BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; explain why =
you think=20
    my points don't count.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
Dylan<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; On 12/14/05, <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz =
</A>&lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&g=
t;<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Or maybe =
not. The=20
    point you make is, once again, irrelevant. I wonder <BR>&gt; &gt; =
if<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; you are<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; doing it=20
    intentionally.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Quoting =
RPer=20
    4eva &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com=20
    </A>&gt;:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If GMs =
are=20
    making scenarios where you have to doubt the players<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    sanity<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; when<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; they =
do=20
    anything other than protect the blast mage maybe you have to =
<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt; question the DMs skills.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Jim<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; -- to unsubscribe notify mailto: <A =

    href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> =
--<BR>&gt;=20
    &gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; --=20
    to unsubscribe notify mailto:<A =
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">=20
    dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>-- to =

    unsubscribe notify mailto:<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A>=20
  --<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C60225.50172F20--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I ask you all again -
Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these spells
(what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are willing
to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.

Kind regards,

Jonathan

Jono Yes


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> I ask you all again -
> Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix 
> these spells (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do 
> not think people are willing to fix them or that their is no 
> need to fix them.

Yes. 

Mandos
/s


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On 16/12/2005, at 10:24, Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:

> Lath is much happier now with Whirlwind Vortex!!!
> In last nights game I found out that I dont have to fill all my targets
> anymore!!!!

And her party breathed a sigh of relief.

Poor wee salamander,

Ithilmor

(But on a serious note, Lath's slow realisation of how magic really 
works has allowed her to have Whirlwind Vortex a lot longer than most 
before it became the only thing to do. Up until now parties had to 
police her use of the spell religiously, and this made it just one many 
options.)


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

It depends on the solution. Id rather see the status quo than a number of the solutions that have been offered. But in principle yes.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 10:46 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Vote please!!



I ask you all again -
Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these spells
(what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are willing
to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.

Kind regards,

Jonathan

Jono Yes


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On 16/12/2005, at 10:45, Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:

>
> I ask you all again -
> Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these 
> spells
> (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are 
> willing
> to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jono Yes

Mandos Yes
Clare Yes


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Mandos Yes
> Clare Yes

For the non-listee's who I have talked to who wanted to get these spells
fixed

Dean Ellis - Yes
Chris Caulfield - Yes

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Yes

(and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time - though there is of
course not much chance of this).

Hamsih

Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 10:46 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Vote please!!


I ask you all again -
Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these spells
(what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are willing
to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.

Kind regards,

Jonathan

Jono Yes


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Yes votes are:

Jono
Mark
Mandos
Dean 
Chris 
Clare
Hamish


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	charset="iso-8859-1"

You want people to say what they think other people's opinions are?

I think we should look at ways to give characters with access to WV, HF, and
Nec more options (that make sense to use) in combat.

So yes to what you meant.

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Bean - TME
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 10:46
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Vote please!!
> 
> 
> 
> I ask you all again -
> Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix 
> these spells
> (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think 
> people are willing
> to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> Jono Yes
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Vote please!!</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You want people to say what they think other people's =
opinions are?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think we should look at ways to give characters =
with access to WV, HF, and Nec more options (that make sense to use) in =
combat.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>So yes to what you meant.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jonathan Bean - TME</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 10:46</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Vote please!!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I ask you all again -</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Please vote yes if they think that people are =
willing to fix </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; these spells</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do =
not think </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; people are willing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to fix them or that their is no need to fix =
them.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Kind regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jonathan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jono Yes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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> (and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time - 
> though there is of course not much chance of this).

I am interested to see what is thought of as broken with this spell.
Other than the annoying binary nature of it I cannot see any issues. 

Mandos
/s


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Having spoken to Jason last night,  I know he votes yes.

I too vote yes.

I know I've been in oposition to many off the  veiws expressed so far, to
them I say I think you are trying to change the spells fo the wrong reasons
and am afraid this will lead to the wrong fixes.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Bean -
>
> I ask you all again -
> Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these spells
> (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are willing
> to fix them or that their is no need to fix them.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Jonathan
>
> Jono Yes
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Quoting Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>:

> At 06:40 16/12/05, you wrote:
> >As to a proposed fix I think in the case of Necrosis the spell should be
> >made single target and a spell similar to current necrosis that only works
> >against undead added.
> >For Wicca, move hellfire to single target and add a multitarget resist for
> >none spell.
> >For fire make hellfire resist for none. There are plenty of other spells in
> >the college no more need to be added.
> >For Air I am not sure of a solution as I don't know the other attack spells
> >well enough.

> Those are acceptable suggestions, and workable, I think. I'd still like to
> see necromancy with a spell that bolsters people against necromantic
> effects, including the live-draining effects of greater undead - call it
> something like Necromantic Armour.

Necromancers have lots of other miscellaneous magic to be throwing around that
they don't need another one. They're not short of stuff to do outside of
combat, and the point is that we are looking for ways to give them something a
bit more exciting to do than cast necrosis endlessly. I don't think this would
be a solution to that problem. It might be a solution to another problem, but
not one we are discussing.

> For Air, there are indeed numerous attack spells - but no defence. I'd like
> to see Whirlwind vortex become lighting-based like most of the other
> air-college attacks, and to introduce a spell providing protection against
> lighting into the air generals. Umm.... A Chain Lightning spell would work
> as a replacement... targets would have to be within 30ft of eachother -
> first target gets a lot of damage, the others less, so picking your target
> order would be important. Resist for half work be fine. (Urgghhhh....
> multi-target resist or die? That truly was broken. Mind you Windstorm is a
> killer, too. Decides to make her next villain an air mage.)

Well, there's no particularly good reason to make the spell the same damage
type. And, plenty of good reasons not to. One can readily say that WV won't
have much effect on a creature of mana or most of the greater undead or those
things that don't care about having their body thrown around violently. That is
not what the rules explicitly say, but that is how I have always interpreted
it, and I believe others have, as well.

Making all of the effects the same removes a tactical option. We haven't seen
variable damage type be a problem, why get rid of it now? Consistency is a fine
thing, but fun is a lot better.
>
> Jacqui
>
> (Oh and the Air College should please donate Thunderclap to the Bards...
> since Air has an excess of attack spells and Bards something of a lack of
> them).

The Bardic college was never designed as an attack college, Jacqui, as well you
know. The fact that they lack damaging attack options was always intended, in
much the same way that E&Es don't have anything that inflicts damage aside from
Bolt of Energy. The way is always there for a player to find something a little
different, but the college is supposed to be predominantly support.

Jim


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Yes.

Jim
Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > I ask you all again -
> > Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix
> > these spells (what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do
> > not think people are willing to fix them or that their is no
> > need to fix them.
>
> Yes.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > (and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time -
> > though there is of course not much chance of this).
>
> I am interested to see what is thought of as broken with this spell.
> Other than the annoying binary nature of it I cannot see any issues.

I don't have any problems with it, either. It's fine the way it is.

Jim


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> (and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time - 
> though there is of course not much chance of this).

I am interested to see what is thought of as broken with this spell.
Other than the annoying binary nature of it I cannot see any issues. 

In use it doesn't work because of its binary nature.  

1:	People it is used against generally don't die, and I don't think
celestial mages rank it because of its cost in comparison to the fact that
it generally doesn't work. (I am open to a bunch of people who play
celestial mages telling us that they have it at high ranks).

2:	The EP cost is not too different to Whirlwind Vortex 500 rather than
650.   WV has the same spell effect except it affects multi targets and does
damage even when they resist.

3:	I think originally it was save or die permanently (I understand that
die permanently was taken out) but the BC, EP and other affects remain the
same, unfortunately I think this revision broke it.

Hamish  
   

Mandos
/s


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Conditional Yes.

There is no way this is going to make it into this edition of the Rule
book so can it please be tabled until all the items for that have been
finished.

TTFN, Struan.

On 12/16/05, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
> Yes votes are:
>
> Jono
> Mark
> Mandos
> Dean
> Chris
> Clare
> Hamish
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> Quoting Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>:
> > (Oh and the Air College should please donate Thunderclap to the Bards...
> > since Air has an excess of attack spells and Bards something of a lack of
> > them).
>
> The Bardic college was never designed as an attack college, Jacqui, as well you
> know. The fact that they lack damaging attack options was always intended, in
> much the same way that E&Es don't have anything that inflicts damage aside from
> Bolt of Energy. The way is always there for a player to find something a little
> different, but the college is supposed to be predominantly support.
>
> Jim

Hear, hear.

In fact this is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.

Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.
Binder has no damage dealing spells but Golems.
E&E has 1 damage dealing spell.
Illusion the same (plus Nightmare).
Mind has two damage dealing spells (plus Phantasm)
Namer has no damage dealing spells.


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Quoting Johanna and Hamish <perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz>:

>
>
> > (and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time -
> > though there is of course not much chance of this).
>
> I am interested to see what is thought of as broken with this spell.
> Other than the annoying binary nature of it I cannot see any issues.
>
> In use it doesn't work because of its binary nature.
>
> 1:	People it is used against generally don't die, and I don't think
> celestial mages rank it because of its cost in comparison to the fact that
> it generally doesn't work. (I am open to a bunch of people who play
> celestial mages telling us that they have it at high ranks).
>
> 2:	The EP cost is not too different to Whirlwind Vortex 500 rather than
> 650.   WV has the same spell effect except it affects multi targets and does
> damage even when they resist.
>
> 3:	I think originally it was save or die permanently (I understand that
> die permanently was taken out) but the BC, EP and other affects remain the
> same, unfortunately I think this revision broke it.

Making it a non-irresurrectable death would not fix it for you, so there is no
revision here that would suddenly make it all right. If your perceived problem
is that people can save against it, then that wouldn't change anything by
making those who fail vs it irresurrectable. The revision cannot have had any
effect on the spell in that regard.

Exp.Mult.s are not a rule of the universe. There is no particular reason to look
at a spell and say that if it is one value in one college, it will be another
value in another college. Hellfire used to have an Exp.Mult. of 325 for
Wiccans, for example, not that I would like to see that brought back into play.

The Celestials are not blast colleges, like Fire, Air, Necro or Wiccan.
Personally, I think instant death spells are very nasty, but they have a place
in the game. There's no particular reason to make the spell equivalent with
some other spell with a similar Exp.Mult.

The way is always there if you want to get your spell changed in some way. You
might have to work hard to convince a DM to run a game for you, and there would
probably be sweets involved, but as a general rule applied to the college? I
don't think it's broken at all.

Jim.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Struan Judd

> 
> In fact this is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.
> 
> Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.
> Binder has no damage dealing spells but Golems.
> E&E has 1 damage dealing spell.
> Illusion the same (plus Nightmare).
> Mind has two damage dealing spells (plus Phantasm)
> Namer has no damage dealing spells.

I think we can count Banishment as damage-dealing, but with a limited target
set :-)

Errol

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex and =
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Struan Judd</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In fact this is probably true of all the =
Thaumaturgies.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Binder has no damage dealing spells but =
Golems.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; E&amp;E has 1 damage dealing spell.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Illusion the same (plus Nightmare).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mind has two damage dealing spells (plus =
Phantasm)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Namer has no damage dealing spells.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think we can count Banishment as damage-dealing, =
but with a limited target set :-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
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At 10:38 16/12/05, you wrote:
>Necromancers have lots of other miscellaneous magic to be throwing around that
>they don't need another one. They're not short of stuff to do outside of
>combat, and the point is that we are looking for ways to give them something a
>bit more exciting to do than cast necrosis endlessly. I don't think this would
>be a solution to that problem. It might be a solution to another problem, but
>not one we are discussing.

As I understood it, part of the problem as originally defined was the 
amount of damage dealt by certain spells - hellfire being seen as less of a 
problem because there is a viable defense in the Fire Armour spell - so why 
not provide other colleges with similarly viable defences?

>Well, there's no particularly good reason to make the spell the same damage
>type. And, plenty of good reasons not to. One can readily say that WV won't
>have much effect on a creature of mana or most of the greater undead or those
>things that don't care about having their body thrown around violently. 
>That is
>not what the rules explicitly say, but that is how I have always interpreted
>it, and I believe others have, as well.
>
>Making all of the effects the same removes a tactical option. We haven't seen
>variable damage type be a problem, why get rid of it now? Consistency is a 
>fine
>thing, but fun is a lot better.

Quite so... however, providing a viable defence against that spell 
logically demanded a spell that protected against the damage type most 
common in the Air College - which is indubitably the lightning type. Thus I 
humbly suggested changing it's damage type to suit such a proposed defence. 
Which would then encourage the use of other spells which don't happen to 
have that damage type, and thus achieving the second stated objective - 
encouraging the tactical use of alternative spells.

> > (Oh and the Air College should please donate Thunderclap to the Bards...
> > since Air has an excess of attack spells and Bards something of a lack of
> > them).
>
>The Bardic college was never designed as an attack college, Jacqui, as 
>well you
>know. The fact that they lack damaging attack options was always intended, in
>much the same way that E&Es don't have anything that inflicts damage aside 
>from
>Bolt of Energy. The way is always there for a player to find something a 
>little
>different, but the college is supposed to be predominantly support.

Goodness me, that isn't at all what I was commenting on.... it was that Air 
College has such a plethora of attack spells.... they could well afford to 
give some away...

Jacqui


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No

William
-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
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Quoting Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>:


> Goodness me, that isn't at all what I was commenting on.... it was that Air
> College has such a plethora of attack spells.... they could well afford to
> give some away...


Well...see, I don't think there's this shelf where you can pick up a spell off,
if no one is using it, Jacqui...:-)


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As I said I'm open to that - I think the main thing is to find out how many
high level celestials have it at usable ranks and use it.  If none do then
it is effectively a spell which is more like an interesting idea than an
actual option.  Not that we necessarily should change that - it doesn't
really matter if a collage has a spell which is never used.

It seems to me that it could be easily made more useful for example if you
save you take D+1/rank - then it would be more used.

In regards to Celestials not being blast mages:  They have more damage
spells than most collages and you have to be switched on to use them cause
all have funny use criteria.  They are all SK:  
	
	Meteorite Shower (D-4 +1/rk megahex save for none) it arrives
slowly.
	
	Bolt of Starfire (D-4 +1/rk save for none) only works against
opposite aspect light or dark
	
	Web of light/dark (D-2 +1/rk damage each pulse 4pts destroy it) only
works against opposite aspect
	
	Increased gravity (resist or suffer 2+2/rk loss of strength each
pulse) the deficit comes from ftg

	White Fire (save or Die)

	Then if you are a dark mage you get black fire, a Solar mage you get
Solar flare, a Star mage you get falling Star, a shadow mage you get a
teleport spell.  

And yet it is true that Celestials are not regarded as blast mages - in fact
they have such a cool range of support spells that this is not generally
seen as an issue.  I don't know if it is either.

However most of the Celestials I know of have sort a special unique damage
spell from a willing GM - this does seem odd to me and to indicate a problem
and I don't think seeking a unique spell is necessarily a solution -
certainly not to new players who don't know how such things work. 

Cheers H
	  
	      

Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:07 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] White Fire

Quoting Johanna and Hamish <perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz>:

>
>
> > (and I'd like to see white Fire fixed at the same time -
> > though there is of course not much chance of this).
>
> I am interested to see what is thought of as broken with this spell.
> Other than the annoying binary nature of it I cannot see any issues.
>
> In use it doesn't work because of its binary nature.
>
> 1:	People it is used against generally don't die, and I don't think
> celestial mages rank it because of its cost in comparison to the fact that
> it generally doesn't work. (I am open to a bunch of people who play
> celestial mages telling us that they have it at high ranks).
>
> 2:	The EP cost is not too different to Whirlwind Vortex 500 rather than
> 650.   WV has the same spell effect except it affects multi targets and
does
> damage even when they resist.
>
> 3:	I think originally it was save or die permanently (I understand that
> die permanently was taken out) but the BC, EP and other affects remain the
> same, unfortunately I think this revision broke it.

Making it a non-irresurrectable death would not fix it for you, so there is
no
revision here that would suddenly make it all right. If your perceived
problem
is that people can save against it, then that wouldn't change anything by
making those who fail vs it irresurrectable. The revision cannot have had
any
effect on the spell in that regard.

Exp.Mult.s are not a rule of the universe. There is no particular reason to
look
at a spell and say that if it is one value in one college, it will be
another
value in another college. Hellfire used to have an Exp.Mult. of 325 for
Wiccans, for example, not that I would like to see that brought back into
play.

The Celestials are not blast colleges, like Fire, Air, Necro or Wiccan.
Personally, I think instant death spells are very nasty, but they have a
place
in the game. There's no particular reason to make the spell equivalent with
some other spell with a similar Exp.Mult.

The way is always there if you want to get your spell changed in some way.
You
might have to work hard to convince a DM to run a game for you, and there
would
probably be sweets involved, but as a general rule applied to the college? I
don't think it's broken at all.

Jim.


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(this time to the list, sorry Jono)

Ben Yes 


I've come to realise now just how little contact I've had with these spells, apart 
from running into the odd ward (which are generally triggered by some balmy condition 
to fit the number of targets) and dim recollections of the occasional fellow party 
member liquifying a combat. Wow, that really must have been a non-event..... 

But as they stand I'm not going to use them as a GM, except maybe as an NPC's display 
of gratuitious power ie "I'm going to kill 70 hostages (and drink some potions) every 
2 minutes until you submit to my demands.", or the party ask me to. In writing. 

As a player, eh, I guess I'll have to find something else to cause mayhem with :) 



ben 

On Fri Dec 16 10:45 , Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> sent: 

> 
>I ask you all again - 
>Please vote yes if they think that people are willing to fix these spells 
>(what ever that fix is) and vote no if you do not think people are willing 
>to fix them or that their is no need to fix them. 
> 
>Kind regards, 
> 
>Jonathan 
> 
>Jono Yes 
>


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jacqui Smith [mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 11:45
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, Whirlwind Vortex 
> and Hellfire?
<snip>
> 
> > > (Oh and the Air College should please donate Thunderclap 
> to the Bards...
> > > since Air has an excess of attack spells and Bards 
> something of a lack of
> > > them).
> >
> >The Bardic college was never designed as an attack college, 
> Jacqui, as 
> >well you
> >know. The fact that they lack damaging attack options was 
> always intended, in
> >much the same way that E&Es don't have anything that 
> inflicts damage aside 
> >from
> >Bolt of Energy. The way is always there for a player to find 
> something a 
> >little
> >different, but the college is supposed to be predominantly support.
> 
> Goodness me, that isn't at all what I was commenting on.... 
> it was that Air 
> College has such a plethora of attack spells.... they could 
> well afford to 
> give some away...
> 


Yet you suggested giving it to the Bards, with the justification that they
had a lack of attack spells. All we can respond to is what you say.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Jacqui Smith [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz">mailto:flamis@ihug.co.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 11:45</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Options with: Necrosis, =
Whirlwind Vortex </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and Hellfire?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; (Oh and the Air College should please =
donate Thunderclap </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to the Bards...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; since Air has an excess of attack =
spells and Bards </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; something of a lack of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; them).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;The Bardic college was never designed as an =
attack college, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jacqui, as </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;well you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;know. The fact that they lack damaging =
attack options was </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; always intended, in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;much the same way that E&amp;Es don't have =
anything that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; inflicts damage aside </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;Bolt of Energy. The way is always there for =
a player to find </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; something a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;little</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;different, but the college is supposed to =
be predominantly support.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Goodness me, that isn't at all what I was =
commenting on.... </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it was that Air </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; College has such a plethora of attack =
spells.... they could </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; well afford to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; give some away...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yet you suggested giving it to the Bards, with the =
justification that they had a lack of attack spells. All we can respond =
to is what you say.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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>
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz<dq-owner@dq.s=
f.org.nz>]On
> Behalf Of
> > Struan Judd
>
> > In fact this is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.
> >
> > Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.
>
...

> Mind has two damage dealing spells (plus Phantasm)
>
So, the rest of the Thaums have 0 or 1, and Mind has 3... adds weight to th=
e
argument that it is really an Entities college...

- Martin

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<div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(=
204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<p><span class=3D"q"><font size=3D"2">&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner=
@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(windo=
w,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.=
org.nz" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event=
,this)">
mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]On Behalf Of</font>
<br></span><font size=3D"2">&gt; Struan Judd</font><br>&nbsp;<br><font size=
=3D"2">&gt; In fact this is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.</font>
<br><font size=3D"2">&gt; </font>
<br><font size=3D"2">&gt; Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.</font><br></p></=
blockquote><div>... <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<p><font size=3D"2"></font><font size=3D"2">Mind has two damage dealing spe=
lls (plus Phantasm)</font></p></blockquote><div>So, the rest of the Thaums =
have 0 or 1, and Mind has 3... adds weight to the argument that it is reall=
y an Entities college...
<br><br>- Martin<br>&nbsp;</div></div><br>

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> No
> 
> William

Ignore this vote, we will repeatedly throw him off a mountain this
evening until he changes his mind :0-)

Mandos
/s


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Well illusion has 2 by the same count ...

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 11:52 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Mind's Branch



> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [  <mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz> =
mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of=20
> Struan Judd
=20
> In fact this is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.=20
>=20
> Bard has 1 damage dealing spell.


...=20


Mind has two damage dealing spells (plus Phantasm)

So, the rest of the Thaums have 0 or 1, and Mind has 3... adds weight to =
the argument that it is really an Entities college...=20

- Martin
=20



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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D102215322-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Well=20
illusion has 2 by the same count ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin=20
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 16 December 2005 11:52 =
a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Mind's =
Branch<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <P><SPAN class=3Dq><FONT size=3D2>&gt; From: <A=20
    onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D_blank>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>=20
    [<A onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"=20
    href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D_blank>=20
    mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On Behalf Of</FONT> =
<BR></SPAN><FONT=20
    size=3D2>&gt; Struan Judd</FONT><BR>&nbsp;<BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; In =
fact this=20
    is probably true of all the Thaumaturgies.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
    </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Bard has 1 damage dealing=20
  spell.</FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>... <BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <P><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>Mind has two damage dealing =
spells (plus=20
    Phantasm)</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>So, the rest of the Thaums have 0 or 1, and Mind has 3... adds =
weight to=20
  the argument that it is really an Entities college... <BR><BR>-=20
  Martin<BR>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Johanna and Hamish
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 11:42
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] White Fire
> 
> 
> As I said I'm open to that - I think the main thing is to 
> find out how many
> high level celestials have it at usable ranks and use it.  If 
> none do then
> it is effectively a spell which is more like an interesting 
> idea than an
> actual option.  Not that we necessarily should change that - 
> it doesn't
> really matter if a collage has a spell which is never used.
> 
> It seems to me that it could be easily made more useful for 
> example if you
> save you take D+1/rank - then it would be more used.
> 
> In regards to Celestials not being blast mages:  They have more damage
> spells than most collages and you have to be switched on to 
> use them cause
> all have funny use criteria.  They are all SK:  
> 	
> 	Meteorite Shower (D-4 +1/rk megahex save for none) it arrives
> slowly.
> 	
> 	Bolt of Starfire (D-4 +1/rk save for none) only works against
> opposite aspect light or dark


!!!!
Who nerfed your version? Standard bolt, hits anything for not much.



> 	
> 	Web of light/dark (D-2 +1/rk damage each pulse 4pts 
> destroy it) only
> works against opposite aspect

Actually also works against neutral aspect (e.g. demonics, elementals).
Still stuff all damage for the EM (in practice). Darien has a version that
does not damage, but is actually a challege to get out of (plus is a handy
ladder).


> 	
> 	Increased gravity (resist or suffer 2+2/rk loss of strength each
> pulse) the deficit comes from ftg
> 
> 	White Fire (save or Die)
> 
> 	Then if you are a dark mage you get black fire, a Solar 
> mage you get
> Solar flare, a Star mage you get falling Star, a shadow mage you get a
> teleport spell.  
> 
> And yet it is true that Celestials are not regarded as blast 
> mages - in fact
> they have such a cool range of support spells that this is 
> not generally
> seen as an issue.  I don't know if it is either.


Darien used to deal with this by being a reasonable fighter for his level of
adventure. This doesn't work for him in High games, and I now consider some
of my earlier choices short-sighted. I have a plan to 'fix' this that
shouldn't require any quest-type activity.

Cheers
Errol


<snip>
> 

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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Johanna and Hamish</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 11:42</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] White Fire</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As I said I'm open to that - I think the main =
thing is to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; find out how many</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; high level celestials have it at usable ranks =
and use it.&nbsp; If </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; none do then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it is effectively a spell which is more like an =
interesting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; idea than an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; actual option.&nbsp; Not that we necessarily =
should change that - </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it doesn't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; really matter if a collage has a spell which is =
never used.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It seems to me that it could be easily made =
more useful for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; example if you</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; save you take D+1/rank - then it would be more =
used.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In regards to Celestials not being blast =
mages:&nbsp; They have more damage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spells than most collages and you have to be =
switched on to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; use them cause</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; all have funny use criteria.&nbsp; They are all =
SK:&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Meteorite Shower =
(D-4 +1/rk megahex save for none) it arrives</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; slowly.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bolt of Starfire =
(D-4 +1/rk save for none) only works against</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; opposite aspect light or dark</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>!!!!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Who nerfed your version? Standard bolt, hits =
anything for not much.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Web of =
light/dark (D-2 +1/rk damage each pulse 4pts </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; destroy it) only</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; works against opposite aspect</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Actually also works against neutral aspect (e.g. =
demonics, elementals). Still stuff all damage for the EM (in practice). =
Darien has a version that does not damage, but is actually a challege =
to get out of (plus is a handy ladder).</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Increased =
gravity (resist or suffer 2+2/rk loss of strength each</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; pulse) the deficit comes from ftg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; White Fire (save =
or Die)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Then if you are =
a dark mage you get black fire, a Solar </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mage you get</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Solar flare, a Star mage you get falling Star, =
a shadow mage you get a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; teleport spell.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And yet it is true that Celestials are not =
regarded as blast </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; mages - in fact</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; they have such a cool range of support spells =
that this is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not generally</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; seen as an issue.&nbsp; I don't know if it is =
either.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Darien used to deal with this by being a reasonable =
fighter for his level of adventure. This doesn't work for him in High =
games, and I now consider some of my earlier choices short-sighted. I =
have a plan to 'fix' this that shouldn't require any quest-type =
activity.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Well illusion has 2 by the same count ...
>

Yeah, but they're not "real". :-)

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.s=
ig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@sm=
tp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">






<div><span><font color=3D"#0000ff" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Well=20
illusion has 2 by the same count ...</font></span></div></blockquote><div><=
br>Yeah, but they're not &quot;real&quot;. :-)<br><br></div></div><br>

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I actively disbelieve that comment!

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 12:20 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Mind's Branch


On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz < Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:=20


Well illusion has 2 by the same count ...


Yeah, but they're not "real". :-)





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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D295443023-15122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
actively disbelieve that comment!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin=20
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 16 December 2005 12:20 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Mind's=20
  Branch<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/16/05, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername><A =

  =
href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A></B> =
&lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A>&gt; =
wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV><SPAN><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Well illusion =
has 2 by the=20
    same count ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Yeah, but they're not "real".=20
:-)<BR><BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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>       Bolt of Starfire (D-4 +1/rk save for none) only works against 
> opposite aspect light or dark 

 

!!!! 
Who nerfed your version? Standard bolt, hits anything for not much. 

True - I just assumed it was useless

So that's a d-4 save for none, special.  :-)

H 

>       
>       Web of light/dark (D-2 +1/rk damage each pulse 4pts 
> destroy it) only 
> works against opposite aspect 

Actually also works against neutral aspect (e.g. demonics, elementals).
Still stuff all damage for the EM (in practice). Darien has a version that
does not damage, but is actually a challege to get out of (plus is a handy
ladder).

 

>       
>       Increased gravity (resist or suffer 2+2/rk loss of strength each 
> pulse) the deficit comes from ftg 
> 
>       White Fire (save or Die) 
> 
>       Then if you are a dark mage you get black fire, a Solar 
> mage you get 
> Solar flare, a Star mage you get falling Star, a shadow mage you get a 
> teleport spell.  
> 
> And yet it is true that Celestials are not regarded as blast 
> mages - in fact 
> they have such a cool range of support spells that this is 
> not generally 
> seen as an issue.  I don't know if it is either. 

 

Darien used to deal with this by being a reasonable fighter for his level of
adventure. This doesn't work for him in High games, and I now consider some
of my earlier choices short-sighted. I have a plan to 'fix' this that
shouldn't require any quest-type activity.

Cheers 
Errol 

 

<snip> 
> 


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<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bolt of Starfire (D-4 +1/rk save for =
none) only
works against</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; opposite aspect =
light or dark</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>!!!!</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Who nerfed your version? =
Standard
bolt, hits anything for not much.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>True &#8211; I
just assumed it was useless<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So that&#8217;s
a d-4 save for none, special.&nbsp; </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></fon=
t><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>H =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Web of light/dark (D-2 +1/rk damage each pulse 4pts </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; destroy it) =
only</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; works against =
opposite aspect</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Actually
also works against neutral aspect (e.g. demonics, elementals). Still =
stuff all
damage for the EM (in practice). <st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Darien</st1:place></st1:City>
has a version that does not damage, but is actually a challege to get =
out of
(plus is a handy ladder).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Increased gravity (resist or suffer 2+2/rk loss of strength =
each</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; pulse) the deficit =
comes from
ftg</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
White Fire (save or Die)</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Then if you are a dark mage you get black fire, a Solar =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; mage you =
get</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Solar flare, a Star =
mage you
get falling Star, a shadow mage you get a</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; teleport =
spell.&nbsp; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; And yet it is true =
that
Celestials are not regarded as blast </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; mages - in =
fact</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; they have such a =
cool range of
support spells that this is </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; not =
generally</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; seen as an =
issue.&nbsp; I
don't know if it is either.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Darien</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><fo=
nt
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> used to deal with this by =
being a reasonable
fighter for his level of adventure. This doesn't work for him in High =
games,
and I now consider some of my earlier choices short-sighted. I have a =
plan to
'fix' this that shouldn't require any quest-type =
activity.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Cheers</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Errol</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&lt;snip&gt;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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(Only dealing with one spell at a time)
Necrosis,
The problems that it is the only spell that Nero's cast in combat, the lack
of options thing.
Damage, at high ranks is high but if the spell is used on high level targets
that have good resistances its restist for half, and I have no problem with
the posablity of death if you fail to resist.
The description of a high in my brand new GMs guild still says for High
level adventures ( where Id expect the GM to be using this spell at high
ranks) still says "including the likelihood of death"

Doubles and triples, plus Enhance enchants, are what make it resist and die.
Solution these effects only add to range, or in the case of Enhance BC as
well.

Why this spell is the only one cast is easy to see it has range, is mult
target and resist for half, where as the GK spell Putrid Wound is single
target resist for none, and  the SK spell Stream of Coruption while mutli
target is short range, not targetable so hurts PCs and again resist for
none.
Solution make these to spells resist for half and they might get used more.
(again if damage is a problemdo the same as for hell fire 1 or 2 per rank or
may be 1/2 and 1)

As for this crap ( sorry Jacqui) about destroying undead or giveing PCs
resistances to undead, its not what necros do.
They make undead, they control the lesser undead, and they have ways to get
rid of the greaters that they can't control or are competion. Necros have a
restance to undead true but then they are the only ones who don't want to
smash them into shards or send them on to the after life.
Necros get to destoy some types of undead and there are lots of other ways
of destroying the rest.
And if you want imunity to undead or a nerco with the ability to help the
party do so quest for it.

Helen


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> Why this spell is the only one cast is easy to see it has 
> range, is mult target and resist for half, where as the GK 
> spell Putrid Wound is single target resist for none, and  the 
> SK spell Stream of Coruption while mutli target is short 
> range, not targetable so hurts PCs and again resist for none. 
> Solution make these to spells resist for half and they might 
> get used more. (again if damage is a problemdo the same as 
> for hell fire 1 or 2 per rank or may be 1/2 and 1)

Simply making it single target would resolve most of the issues. Necro's
have a good range of damage spells they are simply all outclassed by
Necrosis. 

As a player of a Necro I had necrosis removed some time ago after
getting bored with only having one spell to cast in combat. After
removing the spell I found that as a collage Necro suffered on the high
level adventures due to a lack of a resist for half spell which you need
at those game levels. A single target resist for half would be enough
and is what I eventually got as a replacement to Necrosis. 

Mandos
/s


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On 12/16/05, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> >
> > Well illusion has 2 by the same count ...
>
> Yeah, but they're not "real". :-)


but if you believe you're dead, don't worry, you are.

TTFN, Struan


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Whirlwind  vortex:
Problem its a resist or die spell, is a multi target resist or die spell.
I don't like a spell that kills if you fail to resist, regardless of if you
have 3 EN or 300 EN
It is as Jim has said hanging the fate of a PC on a single Dice role,
resistance, and destroying the drama for a fight. If I use it as a GM and
you fail your dead, there is no way for me to fudge the damage so as to
torture you some more, and its not because you didn't take that healing
potion last pulse and had low EN. you are just dead.
The same goes for the PCs using it against the big bad, if he and his boyz
don't resist they are dead and the fight is a non event, and if I give em
good resistances to stop this I limit the others spell options to those that
are not resist for none and so on.

The solution here maybe to make it a damage spell resist for half, with
enchance and doubles etc. not effecting damage. This could mean we drop end
up dropping the EpM a fraction , but it would still be a high damage multi
target spell.
Just as ball of lighting is a good single target spell, better with these
sorts of changes as the higher BC gives more chance of a double.

Helen


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At 13:15 16/12/05, you wrote:
>As for this crap ( sorry Jacqui) about destroying undead or giveing PCs
>resistances to undead, its not what necros do.

What necromancers do, surely depends upon the necromancer, surely? I can 
see room in the game for the Necromancer who concentrates on taking down 
undead, and protecting his hencemen against the powers of the undead is a 
logical part of that.

My proposal to do deal with the cited problems with all three spells is 
that they:
a) all do straight up damage - none of this "resist or die" stuff, because 
being killed (or killing) on a single dice roll is frustrating and boring.
b) include a maximum distance from one target to the next.
c) do increasingly reduced amounts of damage to targets above the first 
one... full damage to number one, half to number two, a third to number 
three and so on... that combined with b) makes the targeting an interesting 
exercise.

Jacqui


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Hell fire
Problems high damage,  (doubles and triples have already been addressed)
resist for half with a built in mod on
resistance and it ends up being the spell to use for wica.

Sugested soultions, drop the MR mod to 1/ rank, don't let it stack with a
double or triple effect mod, again enhance enchant effects only range or BC.
I rather like the idea of spliting the damage, administering D+ 20 over 4
targets or D+40 over 7, don't seem to hard to me
I also like the string of hexs idea like hands of earth, the spell becoming
more of a single pulse area effect spell.


I have no Idea if any of these changes would cause Wica to use it less, this
may just be something we have to live with, like death and taxes. :-)

Helen


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On 12/16/05, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Sugested soultions, drop the MR mod to 1/ rank


Or drop the MR reduction completely -- having 1/2 dmg resist and reduced MR
is double dipping...

don't let it stack with a double or triple effect mod, again enhance enchan=
t
> effects only range or BC.


I'd rather keep the changes simple if possible -- altering the basic way
that Enhance interacts with it seems extra complication.

I also like the string of hexs idea like hands of earth, the spell becoming
> more of a single pulse area effect spell.


That's quite a cool idea. It would tend to significantly reduce the use of
maximum number of targets (it wouldn't be often that all hexes would be
filled).

Thought would have to be given to how multi-hex targets were effected (can =
I
cast it on all 3 hexes of the Troll? What's the resulting damage?).  If the
damage remained high I'd tend to think that being in multiple hexes resulte=
d
in one hit of damage, though if the damage was being lowered then allowing
one hit per hex would give it some limited additional utility (that is, it
would have more benefit when the bad guys were multi-hex).

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Helen Saggers</b> &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">helen@owbn.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
Sugested soultions, drop the MR mod to 1/ rank</blockquote><div><br>Or drop=
 the MR reduction completely -- having 1/2 dmg resist and reduced MR is dou=
ble dipping...<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bord=
er-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-l=
eft: 1ex;">
don't let it stack with a double or triple effect mod, again enhance enchan=
t effects only range or BC.</blockquote><div><br>I'd rather keep the change=
s simple if possible -- altering the basic way that Enhance interacts with =
it seems extra complication.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I a=
lso like the string of hexs idea like hands of earth, the spell becoming<br=
>
more of a single pulse area effect spell.</blockquote><div><br>That's quite=
 a cool idea. It would tend to significantly reduce the use of maximum numb=
er of targets (it wouldn't be often that all hexes would be filled).<br>
<br>Thought would have to be given to how multi-hex targets were effected (=
can I cast it on all 3 hexes of the Troll? What's the resulting damage?).&n=
bsp; If the damage remained high I'd tend to think that being in multiple h=
exes resulted in one hit of damage, though if the damage was being lowered =
then allowing one hit per hex would give it some limited additional utility=
 (that is, it would have more benefit when the bad guys were multi-hex).
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Jacqui Smith
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 14:06
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.
> 
> 
> At 13:15 16/12/05, you wrote:
> >As for this crap ( sorry Jacqui) about destroying undead or 
> giveing PCs
> >resistances to undead, its not what necros do.
> 
> What necromancers do, surely depends upon the necromancer, 
> surely? I can 
> see room in the game for the Necromancer who concentrates on 
> taking down 
> undead, and protecting his hencemen against the powers of the 
> undead is a 
> logical part of that.
> 
> My proposal to do deal with the cited problems with all three 
> spells is 
> that they:
> a) all do straight up damage - none of this "resist or die" 
> stuff, because 
> being killed (or killing) on a single dice roll is 
> frustrating and boring.
> b) include a maximum distance from one target to the next.


I think there are better ways to encourage parties to spread out than one
where players get to use the hex-grid where their PCs would have to
guess/estimate if something is doable. I mean Namers can be expected to be
good judges of how big a mega-hex looks up to 150 feet away (and make a call
on whether they can get 2 of the opposition in one counterspell), and
everyone should have a good feel for their max ranges. But players can
reliably judge if a series of figures on a hex-map are say 20 feet apart,
something PCs would struggle with (not having a bird's eye view and hexes.)
If it's adjacent hexes, that feels OK, but limits the spell somewhat.


> c) do increasingly reduced amounts of damage to targets above 
> the first 
> one... full damage to number one, half to number two, a third 
> to number 
> three and so on... that combined with b) makes the targeting 
> an interesting 
> exercise.
> 

An extra hassle to work with at run-time, even if it's the player's primary
responsibility to work out. What is the value of this unique mechanism that
makes up for the extra hassle?

Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Jacqui Smith</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 14:06</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: =
Necrosis.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; At 13:15 16/12/05, you wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;As for this crap ( sorry Jacqui) about =
destroying undead or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; giveing PCs</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;resistances to undead, its not what necros =
do.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; What necromancers do, surely depends upon the =
necromancer, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; surely? I can </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; see room in the game for the Necromancer who =
concentrates on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; taking down </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; undead, and protecting his hencemen against the =
powers of the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; undead is a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; logical part of that.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; My proposal to do deal with the cited problems =
with all three </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; spells is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that they:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; a) all do straight up damage - none of this =
&quot;resist or die&quot; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; stuff, because </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; being killed (or killing) on a single dice roll =
is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; frustrating and boring.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; b) include a maximum distance from one target =
to the next.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think there are better ways to encourage parties to =
spread out than one where players get to use the hex-grid where their =
PCs would have to guess/estimate if something is doable. I mean Namers =
can be expected to be good judges of how big a mega-hex looks up to 150 =
feet away (and make a call on whether they can get 2 of the opposition =
in one counterspell), and everyone should have a good feel for their =
max ranges. But players can reliably judge if a series of figures on a =
hex-map are say 20 feet apart, something PCs would struggle with (not =
having a bird's eye view and hexes.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If it's adjacent hexes, that feels OK, but limits the =
spell somewhat.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; c) do increasingly reduced amounts of damage to =
targets above </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the first </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; one... full damage to number one, half to =
number two, a third </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to number </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; three and so on... that combined with b) makes =
the targeting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; an interesting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; exercise.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An extra hassle to work with at run-time, even if =
it's the player's primary responsibility to work out. What is the value =
of this unique mechanism that makes up for the extra hassle?</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Quoting Jacqui Smith <flamis@ihug.co.nz>:

> At 13:15 16/12/05, you wrote:
> >As for this crap ( sorry Jacqui) about destroying undead or giveing PCs
> >resistances to undead, its not what necros do.
>
> What necromancers do, surely depends upon the necromancer, surely? I can
> see room in the game for the Necromancer who concentrates on taking down
> undead, and protecting his hencemen against the powers of the undead is a
> logical part of that.

Yes, but I think it's as Helen says. If a player wants to pursue that, then
they're free to quest for some special ability like that. There's no reason to
make it a part of the college, however logically a player's rationalisation
might be put together.

jim.


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Leave Necrosis as it is except for numbers of targets. Change the damage type of
Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead and creatures of mana. Perhaps
some kind of corrosive attack. Combine Life Draining and Hand of Death so that
the damaged inflicted whenever the Necro squeezes their fist can be used to
restore the caster.

Jim.


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Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only spell. Introduce a
save for none, area of effect damage spell.

Jim


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Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have plenty of room for tactical
play.

Jim.


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Leave the spell as it is, but make it a single target spell.

Jim.


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> Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only 
> spell. Introduce a save for none, area of effect damage spell.

Given that with Jims proposed change it will differ from the Fire one
the name should probably be changed. 

Mandos
/s


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I agree with Jim on all counts. 

Although I am not sure why the additional changes to Necro, but they are
all cool :-)

Mandos
/s


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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Change the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead
> and creatures of mana.


Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream passes
must resist or suffer[equation] damage."

Combine Life Draining and Hand of Death so that the damaged inflicted
> whenever the Necro squeezes their fist can be used to restore the caster.


Interesting and unpleasant idea. :-)

 - Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Change the=
 damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead and creature=
s of mana.
</blockquote><div><br>Already does: &quot;All entities occupying hexes thro=
ugh which the stream passes must resist or suffer[equation] damage.&quot;<b=
r></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px sol=
id rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Combine Life Draining and Hand of Death so that the damaged inflicted whene=
ver the Necro squeezes their fist can be used to restore the caster.</block=
quote><div><br>Interesting and unpleasant idea. :-)<br><br>&nbsp;- Martin<b=
r>
</div></div><br>

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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only
> > spell. Introduce a save for none, area of effect damage spell.
>
> Given that with Jims proposed change it will differ from the Fire one
> the name should probably be changed.

Mike suggests Witchfire. I have no objection.

Jim


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Martin asked which spells we are talking about.

Whirlwind Vortex
Necrosus
Dragon Flames
Hell Fire.

Jonathan Bean
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
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asked which spells we are talking about.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Whirlwind Vortex</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Necrosus</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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size=3D2>Dragon=20
Flames</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
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size=3D2>Hell=20
Fire.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D722472003-16122005><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan Bean</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only
> > spell. Introduce a save for none, area of effect damage spell.
>
> Given that with Jims proposed change it will differ from the Fire one
> the name should probably be changed.

Although, I think Father Rowan will call his Ordeal by Fire.

Jim.


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Hiya all,

Seems people think there is a problem so lets move to the next step.

Please can people clearly say what is wrong with the following spells, dont
bother with fix's yet.

Whirlwind Vortex
Necrousis
dragon Flames
Hell fire

Thanks Jono


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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

>
> I agree with Jim on all counts.
>
> Although I am not sure why the additional changes to Necro, but they are
> all cool :-)

The reason is that the type of damage is a little samey...You can only do some
kind of fiddling about with the innards of your target. It also means that
Necrosis doesn't affect creatures of mana or most undead or constructs. This
gives the necro something to do, even if they are confronted with that sort of
opponent.

Jim.


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> Seems people think there is a problem so lets move to the next step.
> 
> Please can people clearly say what is wrong with the 
> following spells, dont bother with fix's yet.
> 
> Whirlwind Vortex
> Necrousis
> dragon Flames
> Hell fire

Do we really have to repeat it all over again. I think we are through
step 2 already, solutions. And Jim has put a good collection of
solutions forward already. 

Mandos
/s


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-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:19
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>  <
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> > wrote: 

Change the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead and
creatures of mana. 


Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream passes
must resist or suffer[equation] damage."



I've had it ruled that it doesn't get skeletons/skeletal Lords. I was damn
sure that that wasn't the intention (and selected investeds for purchase on
this basis), but didn't argue the point on the night.
 
Cheers
Errol

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT size=2>-----Original 
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 16 December 2005 
  15:19<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Possible 
  solution with: Necrosis.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/16/05, <B 
  class=gmail_sendername><A 
  href="mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></B> 
  &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&gt; 
  wrote:<SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Change 
    the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead and 
    creatures of mana. </BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream 
  passes must resist or suffer[equation] damage."<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR><SPAN class=126452902-16122005>I've had it ruled that it doesn't get 
skeletons/skeletal Lords. I was damn sure that that wasn't the intention (and 
selected investeds for purchase on this basis), but didn't argue the point on 
the night.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=126452902-16122005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=126452902-16122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=126452902-16122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> This gives the necro something to do, even if they are confronted with
> that sort of
> opponent.


And don't want t catch everyone in a stream of blood, pus, maggots, and bon=
e
shards. :-)

It's a good call.

- Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">This gives=
 the necro something to do, even if they are confronted with that sort of<b=
r>
opponent.</blockquote><div><br>And don't want t catch everyone in a stream =
of blood, pus, maggots, and bone shards. :-)<br><br>It's a good call.<br><b=
r>- Martin<br></div></div><br>

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Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Change the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead
> > and creatures of mana.
>
>
> Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream passes
> must resist or suffer[equation] damage."

I wouldn't have ruled that it did, actually, Martin. I have always thought that
this spell inflicted damage because it made you sort of instantly sick.
Otherwise, I find it hard to see what sort of damage a globule of pus might do
to me.
>
> Combine Life Draining and Hand of Death so that the damaged inflicted
> > whenever the Necro squeezes their fist can be used to restore the caster.
>
>
> Interesting and unpleasant idea. :-)

It's the kind of people they are, Martin...

Jim.


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> And don't want to catch everyone in a stream of blood, pus, maggots,
and bone shards. :-)

Tis a punishment reserved for small spiders. 

Mandos
/s


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Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.

Jono


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 2:34 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Moving along - step 1
> 
> 
> > Seems people think there is a problem so lets move to the next step.
> > 
> > Please can people clearly say what is wrong with the 
> > following spells, dont bother with fix's yet.
> > 
> > Whirlwind Vortex
> > Necrousis
> > dragon Flames
> > Hell fire
> 
> Do we really have to repeat it all over again. I think we are through
> step 2 already, solutions. And Jim has put a good collection of
> solutions forward already. 
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
>


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> I wouldn't have ruled that it did, actually, Martin. I have 
> always thought that this spell inflicted damage because it 
> made you sort of instantly sick. Otherwise, I find it hard to 
> see what sort of damage a globule of pus might do to me.

I aways assumed the bone shards did the damage the pus caused the
infection. 

Mandos
/s


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> Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.

Cut from an earlier message. 

To put it simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.

1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If they do then
unless the party is rediculously high level then they will all die. This
resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to make changes
that just don't make sence.

2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under
discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With necro there
are a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another
league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This
restricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial
reason (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the
spell (1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring
(all the rest).

Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern to a number
of senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.

Mandos
/s


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:37
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Whirlwing Vortex.
> 
> 
> > And don't want to catch everyone in a stream of blood, pus, maggots,
> and bone shards. :-)
> 
> Tis a punishment reserved for small spiders. 
> 

And people who talk in theatres.

Errol

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<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A HREF="mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:37</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Whirlwing Vortex.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; And don't want to catch everyone in a stream of blood, pus, maggots,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; and bone shards. :-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Tis a punishment reserved for small spiders. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>And people who talk in theatres.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:


> Do we really have to repeat it all over again. I think we are through
> step 2 already, solutions. And Jim has put a good collection of
> solutions forward already.


Jono is talking about which spells are trouble spells, rather than which of them
are boring to cast.

It has been identified that WV, Necrosis, DF and HF are trouble spells in other
posts, although that was not the original intention of the post. Since it was
raised, he is trying to get people to respond to that in this new thread.

He is, I think, trying to get people to identify what they think is wrong with
the spells raised, so that something might be done to address them.

So, in that vein, and only under the current version of the spells:

Whirlwind Vortex: Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice.
Necrosis: Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice.
Dragonflames: Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice.
Hellfire: Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan.

Jim.


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On 12/16/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
>
> I aways assumed the bone shards did the damage the pus caused the
> infection.


And then... bone shards =3D "A" class, so not effective against skellies. :=
-)

Fair 'nuff... and an easy rewording to be explict.

Jim mentioned "corrosive" -- good word to use... suggest adding something
like "corrosive slime" to the list of unpleasantness, and a note to make it
clear that it effects everything substantial at least (we can argue over
spectres).  The infection only effects the living...

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><=
span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<br>I aways assumed the bone shards did the damage the pus caused the<br>in=
fection.</blockquote><div><br>And then... bone shards =3D &quot;A&quot; cla=
ss, so not effective against skellies. :-)<br><br>Fair 'nuff... and an easy=
 rewording to be explict.
<br><br>Jim mentioned &quot;corrosive&quot; -- good word to use... suggest =
adding something like &quot;corrosive slime&quot; to the list of unpleasant=
ness, and a note to make it clear that it effects everything substantial at=
 least (we can argue over spectres).&nbsp; The infection only effects the l=
iving...
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br><br></div></div><br>

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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > I wouldn't have ruled that it did, actually, Martin. I have
> > always thought that this spell inflicted damage because it
> > made you sort of instantly sick. Otherwise, I find it hard to
> > see what sort of damage a globule of pus might do to me.
>
> I aways assumed the bone shards did the damage the pus caused the
> infection.

Really?

Do they gush out at speed or something? I was under the impression that they
kind of poured out languidly away from the caster.

Really ought to do something about the name of the damned spell, then...


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Does everyone agree with Mondos Summing up. If you do not this is your
chance to say.
No action at this point is a Im happy to go with the flow vote.

So if we are all happy with Mondos summing up then moving along otherwise
please say if you are not happy with Mandos summing up.

Im happy with it.

Jonathan



> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 2:40 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Moving along - step 2
>
>
> > Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.
>
> Cut from an earlier message.
>
> To put it simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.
>
> 1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If they do then
> unless the party is rediculously high level then they will all die. This
> resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to make changes
> that just don't make sence.
>
> 2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under
> discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With necro there
> are a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another
> league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This
> restricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial
> reason (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the
> spell (1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring
> (all the rest).
>
> Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern to a number
> of senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Do they gush out at speed or something? I was under the impression that
> they
> kind of poured out languidly away from the caster.
>

Hey, originally I wanted the Necro to vomit it... kinda like dragonflames..=
.
only not so hot...  :-)

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>Do the=
y gush out at speed or something? I was under the impression that they<br>k=
ind of poured out languidly away from the caster.
<br></blockquote><div><br>Hey, originally I wanted the Necro to vomit it...=
 kinda like dragonflames... only not so hot...&nbsp; :-)<br></div></div><br=
>

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Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Do they gush out at speed or something? I was under the impression that
> > they
> > kind of poured out languidly away from the caster.
> >
>
> Hey, originally I wanted the Necro to vomit it... kinda like dragonflames...
> only not so hot...  :-)

I don't feel very well...

Jim.


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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> So, in that vein, and only under the current version of the spells:
>
> Hellfire: Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan.


Maybe OK for tactical play if you are a Fire Mage, but if you're the GM wit=
h
an NPC Fire Mage:"Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice."

Cast options aside, this one is still something of a problem spell.

- Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">So, in tha=
t vein, and only under the current version of the spells:<br><br>Hellfire: =
Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan.
</blockquote><div><br>Maybe OK for tactical play if you are a Fire Mage, bu=
t if you're the GM with an NPC Fire Mage:&quot;Total party wipeout on a sin=
gle roll of the dice.&quot;<br><br>Cast options aside, this one is still so=
mething of a problem spell.
<br><br>- Martin<br></div></div><br>

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Remind me again why necro is a player college? :P

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 3:55 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Do they gush out at speed or something? I was under the impression that
> > they
> > kind of poured out languidly away from the caster.
> >
>
> Hey, originally I wanted the Necro to vomit it... kinda like dragonflames...
> only not so hot...  :-)

I don't feel very well...

Jim.


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Jim said for Hellfire (Fire):

"Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have plenty of room for tactical
play."

And for Hellfire (Wiccan):

"Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only spell. Introduce a
save for none, area of effect damage spell."

Seems pretty bland. Sure it depowers the spell but surely thats not the only desired outcome. And the choice of whether to cast this spell or harm entity  still falls in favour of Hellfire (or Witchfire if you like) every time. What about making Wiccan hellfire an area of effect spell, rather than multiple hand picked targets spell. Make the caster designate a main target entity for the spell, and everyone else within, say, rank feet of the main target take lesser damage (this could hit the party too which offers some tactical considerations). The main target could get the full dose with resist for half, others in the splash damage area get half damage and resist for zero.



 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 3:08 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Hellfire (Fire).


Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have plenty of room for tactical
play.

Jim.


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Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > So, in that vein, and only under the current version of the spells:
> >
> > Hellfire: Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan.
>
>
> Maybe OK for tactical play if you are a Fire Mage, but if you're the GM with
> an NPC Fire Mage:"Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice."
>
> Cast options aside, this one is still something of a problem spell.

I don't think so. It doesn't do as much damage on a single roll of the dice.
87-114 fire damage, saving -25 for half...At most, that's 57 damage to FT and
EN. There are ways around this. Strength of Stone, plus there's Fire Armour and
Armour of Ice, which are stackable, and damned fine, too.

Even with the big penalty to saving throw, some of the players are going to
save, and they won't die. It's severe, I grant you, but it's not like
Dragonflames, WV and Necrosis. They do much more damage on triples and doubles

Jim


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A triple damage rank 20 D-Flames tops out at about 100 damage assuming high rolling on the D20.  Assuming no resistance.  Fire Armour also tops out at 100 at rank 20.
   
  It'll wipe a party out if they don't resist and don't have fire armours and the caster triples.  Thats three ifs involved in taking a party out with hellfire.  It's not in the same league as the other three spells mentioned for auto-killing people.
   
  Bernard

Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
  On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:    So, in that vein, and only under the current version of the spells:

Hellfire: Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan.   
Maybe OK for tactical play if you are a Fire Mage, but if you're the GM with an NPC Fire Mage:"Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice."

Cast options aside, this one is still something of a problem spell. 

- Martin

  



From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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<DIV>A triple damage rank 20 D-Flames tops out at about 100 damage assuming high rolling on the D20.&nbsp; Assuming no resistance.&nbsp; Fire Armour also tops out at 100 at rank 20.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>It'll wipe a party out if they don't resist and don't have fire armours and the caster triples.&nbsp; Thats three ifs involved in taking a party out with hellfire.&nbsp; It's not in the same league as the other three spells mentioned for auto-killing people.</DIV>  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV>Bernard<BR><BR><B><I>Martin Dickson &lt;martin.dickson@gmail.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">On 12/16/05, <B class=gmail_sendername><A href="mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></B> &lt;<A href="mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&gt; wrote:  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex;
 MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">So, in that vein, and only under the current version of the spells:<BR><BR>Hellfire: Fine if you're a fire mage, boring if you're a wiccan. </BLOCKQUOTE>  <DIV><BR>Maybe OK for tactical play if you are a Fire Mage, but if you're the GM with an NPC Fire Mage:"Total party wipeout on a single roll of the dice."<BR><BR>Cast options aside, this one is still something of a problem spell. <BR><BR>- Martin</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>  <DIV><BR></DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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(WV,HF,Nec,Dflames)
Near enough, with the minor point that point 2 doesn't seem to apply to
DFlames (and maybe HF(Fire)).

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mandos Mitchinson [mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz]
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:40
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Moving along - step 2
> 
> 
> > Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.
> 
> Cut from an earlier message. 
> 
> To put it simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.
> 
> 1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If 
> they do then
> unless the party is rediculously high level then they will 
> all die. This
> resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to 
> make changes
> that just don't make sence.
> 
> 2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under
> discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With 
> necro there
> are a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another
> league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This
> restricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial
> reason (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the
> spell (1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring
> (all the rest).
> 
> Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern 
> to a number
> of senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Moving along - step 2</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>(WV,HF,Nec,Dflames)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Near enough, with the minor point that point 2 doesn't seem to apply to DFlames (and maybe HF(Fire)).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Mandos Mitchinson [<A HREF="mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:40</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Moving along - step 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; &gt; Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Cut from an earlier message. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To put it simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; 1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; they do then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; unless the party is rediculously high level then they will </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; all die. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; make changes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; that just don't make sence.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; 2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; necro there</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; are a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; restricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; reason (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; spell (1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; (all the rest).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; to a number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; of senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
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Quoting Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>:


> Seems pretty bland. Sure it depowers the spell but surely thats not the only
> desired outcome. And the choice of whether to cast this spell or harm entity
> still falls in favour of Hellfire (or Witchfire if you like) every time. What
> about making Wiccan hellfire an area of effect spell, rather than multiple
> hand picked targets spell. Make the caster designate a main target entity for
> the spell, and everyone else within, say, rank feet of the main target take
> lesser damage (this could hit the party too which offers some tactical
> considerations). The main target could get the full dose with resist for
> half, others in the splash damage area get half damage and resist for zero.


The reason that I have gone for bland is so that players can quest for points of
difference, if they want them. It would not be hard for me to come up something
cool. The tempation is great. But, there is some risk in raising the bar on
what a player considers cool as a point of difference. In creating a non-bland
base ruleset, you raise the bar on what players perceive as cool.

For the base ruleset, I vote we do not choose something too exciting so that
players have something to quest for.

Jim.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 3:08 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Hellfire (Fire).
>
>
> Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have plenty of room for tactical
> play.
>
> Jim.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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why compare hellfire with harm entity? thats the same
as trying to compare greater enchantment with
necrosis... Hellfire is the Only spell in the wiccan
college that actually deals damage to anyone,
everything else produces an effect. Harm entity merely
reduces BC's, so the revelance of harm entity versus
hellfire is further reduced by the fact that Hellfire
is the only spell wiccan's have for damage which in
turns makes it more obvious that it is the only spell
wiccan's should cast in combat. There are
situationally dependant times to cast other spells but
more often than not hellfire is the way to go. Just to
note my witch doesn't have hellfire and she isn't
going to get hellfire in it's current redition because
I don't want her options in combat to come down to
cast hellfire or prepare hellfire. (My apologies in
advance to Jim if we end up using Father Rowan like
that in the game we are in)

Zane

--- Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)"
<SimpsoM2@anz.com> wrote:

> Jim said for Hellfire (Fire):
> 
> "Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have
> plenty of room for tactical
> play."
> 
> And for Hellfire (Wiccan):
> 
> "Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single
> target only spell. Introduce a
> save for none, area of effect damage spell."
> 
> Seems pretty bland. Sure it depowers the spell but
> surely thats not the only desired outcome. And the
> choice of whether to cast this spell or harm entity 
> still falls in favour of Hellfire (or Witchfire if
> you like) every time. What about making Wiccan
> hellfire an area of effect spell, rather than
> multiple hand picked targets spell. Make the caster
> designate a main target entity for the spell, and
> everyone else within, say, rank feet of the main
> target take lesser damage (this could hit the party
> too which offers some tactical considerations). The
> main target could get the full dose with resist for
> half, others in the splash damage area get half
> damage and resist for zero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
> [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 3:08 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Hellfire
> (Fire).
> 
> 
> Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have
> plenty of room for tactical
> play.
> 
> Jim.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify
> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 


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A thought has struck me here.  Given the problem is lack of choice for Wiccans, simply splitting Hellfire into two new spells won't really alleviate this.  There will be a choice, do I cast Hellfire (A) or Hellfire (B) which while some improvement still isn't a great range of options.  However......, if ontop of this split Evil Eye and Damnin Minatum got multiple targets as well, those two could also become worthwhile options, they are resist for none, but if they have several targets the chance of someone failing to resist are much higher.  That would give wiccans a much larger range of possible combat spells to be using, with a variety of effect types also.  I'd think 1+1/3 ranks number of targets, like the usual multi target spells.

raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz wrote:  Quoting Mandos Mitchinson :

> > Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only
> > spell. Introduce a save for none, area of effect damage spell.
>
> Given that with Jims proposed change it will differ from the Fire one
> the name should probably be changed.

Although, I think Father Rowan will call his Ordeal by Fire.

Jim.


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From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
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<DIV id=RTEContent>A thought has struck me here.&nbsp; Given the problem is lack of choice for Wiccans, simply splitting Hellfire into two new spells won't really alleviate this.&nbsp; There will be a choice, do I cast Hellfire (A) or Hellfire (B) which while some improvement still isn't a great range of options.&nbsp; However......, if ontop of this split Evil Eye and Damnin Minatum got multiple targets as well, those two could also become worthwhile options, they are resist for none, but if they have several targets the chance of someone failing to resist are much higher.&nbsp; That would give wiccans a much larger range of possible combat spells to be using, with a variety of effect types also.&nbsp; I'd think 1+1/3 ranks number of targets, like the usual multi target spells.<BR><BR><B><I>raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</I></B> wrote:  <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Quoting Mandos Mitchinson
 <MANDOSM@ADHB.GOVT.NZ>:<BR><BR>&gt; &gt; Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single target only<BR>&gt; &gt; spell. Introduce a save for none, area of effect damage spell.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Given that with Jims proposed change it will differ from the Fire one<BR>&gt; the name should probably be changed.<BR><BR>Although, I think Father Rowan will call his Ordeal by Fire.<BR><BR>Jim.<BR><BR><BR>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>From Bernard Hoggins<br>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<p>Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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Hellfire and Harm Entity are both wiccan offensive "combat" spells (I think Jim may have used the example, or someone else, much earlier in this thread).  Even with Jim's suggested nerf to Wiccan Hellfire, you would still choose hellfire over harm entity in pretty much every combat situation imaginable. Still no real choice for the Wiccan player. At least with my suggested version below, where the target and rank feet around him/her erupt in flames from the fires of hell below,  suggests one situation where you might choose harm entity, namely where the target is already in melee range of some of the party (and they would get hit with the splash damage if you cast hellfire).



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Zane Mendoza
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 4:10 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Hellfire (Fire).


why compare hellfire with harm entity? thats the same
as trying to compare greater enchantment with
necrosis... Hellfire is the Only spell in the wiccan
college that actually deals damage to anyone,
everything else produces an effect. Harm entity merely
reduces BC's, so the revelance of harm entity versus
hellfire is further reduced by the fact that Hellfire
is the only spell wiccan's have for damage which in
turns makes it more obvious that it is the only spell
wiccan's should cast in combat. There are
situationally dependant times to cast other spells but
more often than not hellfire is the way to go. Just to
note my witch doesn't have hellfire and she isn't
going to get hellfire in it's current redition because
I don't want her options in combat to come down to
cast hellfire or prepare hellfire. (My apologies in
advance to Jim if we end up using Father Rowan like
that in the game we are in)

Zane

--- Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)"
<SimpsoM2@anz.com> wrote:

> Jim said for Hellfire (Fire):
> 
> "Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have
> plenty of room for tactical
> play."
> 
> And for Hellfire (Wiccan):
> 
> "Leave Hellfire as it is, but make it a single
> target only spell. Introduce a
> save for none, area of effect damage spell."
> 
> Seems pretty bland. Sure it depowers the spell but
> surely thats not the only desired outcome. And the
> choice of whether to cast this spell or harm entity 
> still falls in favour of Hellfire (or Witchfire if
> you like) every time. What about making Wiccan
> hellfire an area of effect spell, rather than
> multiple hand picked targets spell. Make the caster
> designate a main target entity for the spell, and
> everyone else within, say, rank feet of the main
> target take lesser damage (this could hit the party
> too which offers some tactical considerations). The
> main target could get the full dose with resist for
> half, others in the splash damage area get half
> damage and resist for zero.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
> [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 3:08 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Hellfire
> (Fire).
> 
> 
> Nothing. It's fine the way it is. Fire mages have
> plenty of room for tactical
> play.
> 
> Jim.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify
> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 


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On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Remind me again why necro is a player college? :P


So that by contrast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like good guys=
.

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.s=
ig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@sm=
tp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Remind me =
again why necro is a player college? :P</blockquote><div><br>So that by con=
trast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like good guys.
<br></div></div><br>

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On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> It's severe, I grant you, but it's not like Dragonflames, WV and Necrosis=
.


Fair 'nuff.

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auc=
kland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro00=
2@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> It's seve=
re, I grant you, but it's not like Dragonflames, WV and Necrosis.</blockquo=
te>
<div><br>Fair 'nuff.<br></div></div><br>

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There are shards and splinters of bone in with the puss being peppered =
with the magically created bone bits is what gets the undead and Mana =
creatures, the spell does state enities and unlike other spells in the =
collage does not exclude undead.

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Errol Cavit=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.



    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
    Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 15:19
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


    On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> =
wrote:=20
      Change the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects =
undead and creatures of mana.=20

    Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream =
passes must resist or suffer[equation] damage."


  I've had it ruled that it doesn't get skeletons/skeletal Lords. I was =
damn sure that that wasn't the intention (and selected investeds for =
purchase on this basis), but didn't argue the point on the night.

  Cheers
  Errol
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There are shards and splinters of bone =
in with the=20
puss&nbsp;being peppered with the magically created bone bits is what =
gets the=20
undead and Mana creatures, the spell does state enities and unlike other =
spells=20
in the collage does not exclude undead.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Decavit@tollnz.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">Errol Cavit</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 16, 2005 =
3:34=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Possible =
solution with:=20
  Necrosis.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT size=3D2>-----Original=20
    Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson=20
    [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 16 =
December 2005=20
    15:19<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re:=20
    [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On =
12/16/05, <B=20
    class=3Dgmail_sendername><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></=
B>=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&g=
t;=20
    wrote:<SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Change=20
      the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead =
and=20
      creatures of mana. </BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR>Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which =
the=20
    stream passes must resist or suffer[equation] =
damage."<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR><SPAN class=3D126452902-16122005>I've had it ruled that it =
doesn't get=20
  skeletons/skeletal Lords. I was damn sure that that wasn't the =
intention (and=20
  selected investeds for purchase on this basis), but didn't argue the =
point on=20
  the night.</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D126452902-16122005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D126452902-16122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D126452902-16122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Heck we always "look" like good guys.

TTFN, Struan

On 12/16/05, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > Remind me again why necro is a player college? :P
>
> So that by contrast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like good guys.
>
>


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-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Dickson [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 16:21
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz>  <
Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> > wrote: 


Remind me again why necro is a player college? :P


So that by contrast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like good guys.



 

So why do we have colleges starting with B??
 
Errol 

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Martin Dickson 
  [mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 16 December 2005 
  16:21<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Possible 
  solution with: Necrosis.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 12/16/05, <B 
  class=gmail_sendername><A 
  href="mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A></B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Remind 
    me again why necro is a player college? :P</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>So that by contrast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like 
  good guys. <BR></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><BR><SPAN class=600022603-16122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=600022603-16122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So why 
do we have colleges starting with B??</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=600022603-16122005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=600022603-16122005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> At least with my suggested version below, where the target and rank feet
> around him/her erupt in flames from the fires of hell below...


Yep quite like that.  Also like Helen's connected hexes idea...

Aside: Jim has used Harm Entity as comparison, I'd be more tempted to use
Damnum Minatum.  At high ranks it is effectively "resist or else" (blind,
mute, etc).  Though it can be removed by CS, so it's not unrecoverable...

Speaking as someone with multi-target DMin it makes a good alternative to H=
F
I find. (Though there is a character consideration of reluctance to kill).

Another "resist or else" option is Damnum Magnatum, though I've not used it
often in combat -- I have a personal feeling that major curses should be
both appropriate and "declaimed" / pronounced and I'm bad at off the cuff
doggerel.

- Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.s=
ig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@sm=
tp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">At least w=
ith my suggested version below, where the target and rank feet around him/h=
er erupt in flames from the fires of hell below...
</blockquote><div><br>Yep quite like that.&nbsp; Also like Helen's connecte=
d hexes idea... <br><br>Aside: Jim has used Harm Entity as comparison, I'd =
be more tempted to use Damnum Minatum.&nbsp; At high ranks it is effectivel=
y &quot;resist or else&quot; (blind, mute, etc).&nbsp; Though it can be rem=
oved by CS, so it's not unrecoverable...
<br><br>Speaking as someone with multi-target DMin it makes a good alternat=
ive to HF I find. (Though there is a character consideration of reluctance =
to kill).<br><br>Another &quot;resist or else&quot; option is Damnum Magnat=
um, though I've not used it often in combat -- I have a personal feeling th=
at major curses should be both appropriate and &quot;declaimed&quot; / pron=
ounced and I'm bad at off the cuff doggerel.
<br><br>- Martin<br></div></div><br>

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Jim said:

"The reason that I have gone for bland is so that players can quest for points of
difference, if they want them. It would not be hard for me to come up something
cool. The temptation is great. But, there is some risk in raising the bar on
what a player considers cool as a point of difference. In creating a non-bland
base ruleset, you raise the bar on what players perceive as cool."


So we want to make all the base colleges as bland as possible? I'd advocate for making them as varied and interesting as possible, just so long as we make sure they are reasonably balanced. The variety adds flavour. 

I realise that you have defined the problem solely as one of Hellfire (and Necrosis) limiting player choices and you have avoided talking about power levels of spells. But to me the reason those spells robbed players of valid choices is precisely because they were overpowered in comparison to the other spells available within those respective colleges.


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On 16/12/2005, at 11:41, Johanna and Hamish wrote:

> However most of the Celestials I know of have sort a special unique 
> damage
> spell from a willing GM - this does seem odd to me and to indicate a 
> problem
> and I don't think seeking a unique spell is necessarily a solution -
> certainly not to new players who don't know how such things work.

Speaking as a Celestial, I got Black Fire early - its a good spell 
against a crowd of enemies. I haven't got White Fire - not sure why, 
but I was searching for a save for half spell to use against the big 
baddies that would generally not be bothered by Black Fire. I did 
eventually find the spell I was after. And any character should come 
across a situation where they can learn some spell not in their college 
by the time the reach medium-high level.

cheers,

Ithilmor


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If you talk to Cyan im sure he can convince you he really is a good guy, just stop actively resisting!

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Struan Judd
Sent: Friday, 16 December 2005 4:26 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


Heck we always "look" like good guys.

TTFN, Struan

On 12/16/05, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> > Remind me again why necro is a player college? :P
>
> So that by contrast the Illusionists and Mind Mages can look like good guys.
>
>


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Because they are harmless honest they are, no or only one attack spell.  =

Can't hurt a fly unless we hit it with a swat and rarely have the stats =
for a swat as it all goes in to MA.
Its all the elemental and Entities collages fault they want to deflect =
you from the truth and are jealous of our greater magical ability.
And the poor harmless mages of collages starting with B can't  really =
retaliate against Hellfire Necrosis and whirlwind vortex. Although some =
may complain loudly, very loudly. :-)

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Errol Cavit=20
  So why do we have colleges starting with B??

  Errol 
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Because they are harmless honest they =
are, no or=20
only one attack spell.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can't hurt a fly unless we hit it with =
a swat and=20
rarely have the stats for a swat as it all goes in to MA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Its all the elemental and Entities =
collages fault=20
they want to deflect you from the truth and are jealous of our greater =
magical=20
ability.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And the poor harmless mages of collages =
starting=20
with B can't &nbsp;really retaliate against Hellfire Necrosis and =
whirlwind=20
vortex. Although some may complain loudly, very loudly. :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Decavit@tollnz.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">Errol Cavit</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D600022603-16122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>So=20
  why do we have colleges starting with B??</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D600022603-16122005></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D600022603-16122005><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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It is so hard to define Evil -- one of the reasons that Bush uses  the word so often.

And most PC's would use it the same way.  Something is Evil if I WANT to do it over & feel that it is my moral right or moral obligation to do it over.   Good means us, when we *know* we are right.


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"It is so hard to define Evil -- one of the reasons that Bush uses  the word
so often."

 

"And most PC's would use it the same way.  Something is Evil if I WANT to do
it over & feel that it is my moral right or moral obligation to do it over.
Good means us, when we *know* we are right."

 

Funny this - many would say George Bush is evil and yet he would claim that
because he feels he has a moral obligation to do over the Iraques and he
knows it is the right thing to do it should be done - it could be that the
fact the he knows it is right is the problem. 

 

But I agree for us mere mortals it is not at all clear.

 

 

 

 

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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&quot;It is so hard to define Evil -- one of the reasons that =
Bush
uses&nbsp; the word so often.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>&quot;And most PC's would use it the same way.&nbsp; Something =
is Evil
if I WANT to do it over &amp; feel that it is my moral right or moral
obligation to do it over.&nbsp;&nbsp; Good means us, when we *know* we =
are
right.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>Funny =
this -
many would say George Bush is evil and yet he would claim that because =
he feels
he has a moral obligation to do over the Iraques and he knows it is the =
right
thing to do it should be done - it could be that the fact the he knows =
it is
right is the problem. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>But I =
agree for
us mere mortals it is not at all clear.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier =
New";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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I have seen plenty of games where Undead are immune to Stream of =
Corruption as standard.

Regards,
Michael
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Martin Dickson=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] Possible solution with: Necrosis.


  On 12/16/05, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> =
wrote:
    Change the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects =
undead and creatures of mana.=20

  Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the stream =
passes must resist or suffer[equation] damage."



    Combine Life Draining and Hand of Death so that the damaged =
inflicted whenever the Necro squeezes their fist can be used to restore =
the caster.

  Interesting and unpleasant idea. :-)

   - Martin



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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have seen plenty of games where =
Undead are immune=20
to Stream of Corruption as standard.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Michael</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dmartin.dickson@gmail.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">Martin Dickson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 16, 2005 =
3:19=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Possible =
solution with:=20
  Necrosis.</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>On 12/16/05, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></=
B>=20
  &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&g=
t;=20
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Change=20
    the damage type of Stream of Corruption so that it affects undead =
and=20
    creatures of mana. </BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Already does: "All entities occupying hexes through which the =
stream=20
  passes must resist or suffer[equation] damage."<BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Combine=20
    Life Draining and Hand of Death so that the damaged inflicted =
whenever the=20
    Necro squeezes their fist can be used to restore the =
caster.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Interesting and unpleasant idea. :-)<BR><BR>&nbsp;-=20
  Martin<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Currently the Half Damage spell of the Celestial is Web of whichever branch
you throw. Sure it only effects half the world, but for 250 EM its cheap Its
a better spell for Solar/Star mages probably, but thats ok. Dark/Shadow
mages get other cool stuff.. Now thats its half damage I'll certainly be
ranking it higher. And there is certainly scope for getting out there and
looking for alternatives.

You could argue a case for Whitefire being half damage, but I dont know that
you would get too much support. It's fine the way it is and you can always
get it modified.

Regards,
Michael

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clare Baldock" <clare@orcon.net.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] White Fire


>
> On 16/12/2005, at 11:41, Johanna and Hamish wrote:
>
> > However most of the Celestials I know of have sort a special unique
> > damage
> > spell from a willing GM - this does seem odd to me and to indicate a
> > problem
> > and I don't think seeking a unique spell is necessarily a solution -
> > certainly not to new players who don't know how such things work.
>
> Speaking as a Celestial, I got Black Fire early - its a good spell
> against a crowd of enemies. I haven't got White Fire - not sure why,
> but I was searching for a save for half spell to use against the big
> baddies that would generally not be bothered by Black Fire. I did
> eventually find the spell I was after. And any character should come
> across a situation where they can learn some spell not in their college
> by the time the reach medium-high level.
>
> cheers,
>
> Ithilmor
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I agree, single target and adjust the EM to 550. You could think about
reducing the range to say 30 +5/rank maybe.

Regards,
Michael Young


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] Posible solution with: Whirlwing Vortex.


> Leave the spell as it is, but make it a single target spell.
>
> Jim.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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I'm happy with most of it except for the last part where he says all the
rest. I'd like to know roughly how many and I'd like to hear it from them.
Not second hand. I don't think I've ever been in a boring combat. Then agai=
n
I don't tend to hang in high level games where one person apparently can
handle the combat without the rest of us.

Dylan


On 12/16/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
> > Ok Mandos can you sum up then please.
>
> Cut from an earlier message.
>
> To put it simply there are two reasons to depower these spells.
>
> 1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If they do then
> unless the party is rediculously high level then they will all die. This
> resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to make changes
> that just don't make sence.
>
> 2. Players have colleges with 20-30 spells in it. The spells under
> discussion invalidate up to 50% of the colleges spells. With necro there
> are a number of good attack spells. However Necrosis is in another
> league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This
> restricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial
> reason (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the
> spell (1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring
> (all the rest).
>
> Both of these issues are present, visible and are of concern to a number
> of senior GM's and players and have been there for a long time.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>I'm happy with most of it except for the last part where he says all t=
he rest. I'd like to know roughly how many and I'd like to hear it from the=
m. Not second hand. I don't think I've ever been in a boring combat. Then a=
gain I don't tend to hang in high level games where one person apparently c=
an handle the combat without the rest of us.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@=
adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&gt; Ok Mandos can you sum up th=
en please.<br><br>Cut from an earlier message.<br><br>To put it simply ther=
e are two reasons to depower these spells.
<br><br>1. GM's cannot use more than one mage with these spells. If they do=
 then<br>unless the party is rediculously high level then they will all die=
. This<br>resricts the adventures that GM's can run without having to make =
changes
<br>that just don't make sence.<br><br>2. Players have colleges with 20-30 =
spells in it. The spells under<br>discussion invalidate up to 50% of the co=
lleges spells. With necro there<br>are a number of good attack spells. Howe=
ver Necrosis is in another
<br>league. there is no need to rank or cast anything else ever. This<br>re=
stricts players to either not learn the spell with some artificial<br>reaso=
n (3 necros I can think of have done this), remove or change the<br>spell (=
1 necro), or use the spell but find combats increasingly boring
<br>(all the rest).<br><br>Both of these issues are present, visible and ar=
e of concern to a number<br>of senior GM's and players and have been there =
for a long time.<br><br>Mandos<br>/s<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify ma=
ilto:
<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<b=
r></blockquote></div><br>

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On behalf of Porl (TPO Te he huan and Emillio)

No.

Dylan


On 12/16/05, Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz> wrote:
>
> > No
> >
> > William
>
> Ignore this vote, we will repeatedly throw him off a mountain this
> evening until he changes his mind :0-)
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>On behalf of Porl (TPO Te he huan and Emillio)</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>No.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"=
>Mandos Mitchinson</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:MandosM@adhb.govt.nz">MandosM@=
adhb.govt.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">&gt; No<br>&gt;<br>&gt; William<=
br><br>Ignore this vote, we will repeatedly throw him off a mountain this<b=
r>
evening until he changes his mind :0-)<br><br>Mandos<br>/s<br><br><br>-- to=
 unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-re=
quest@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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On 12/16/05, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz <Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Jim said: "The reason that I have gone for bland is so that players can
> quest for points of
> difference, if they want them.
>
> So we want to make all the base colleges as bland as possible? I'd
> advocate for making them as varied and interesting as possible, just so l=
ong
> as we make sure they are reasonably balanced. The variety adds flavour.


And also reduces the risky "currency" of GM favour, something that Jono has
touched upon before -- the desire for a level-ish playing field that depend=
s
as little as practical on availability of / access to sympathetic GMs.

Differences from quest are good -- but I don't think the options offered as
standard (the standard college spells) should intentionally depend upon
this.

Regards,
Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@smtp.s=
ig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Simpson@sm=
tp.sig.net.nz">Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Jim said: =
&quot;The reason that I have gone for bland is so that players can quest fo=
r points of
<br>difference, if they want them. <br><br>So
we want to make all the base colleges as bland as possible? I'd
advocate for making them as varied and interesting as possible, just so
long as we make sure they are reasonably balanced. The variety adds
flavour.</blockquote><div><br>
And also reduces the risky &quot;currency&quot; of GM favour, something tha=
t Jono
has touched upon before -- the desire for a level-ish playing field
that depends as little as practical on availability of / access to
sympathetic GMs.<br>
<br>
Differences from quest are good -- but I don't think the options
offered as standard (the standard college spells) should intentionally
depend upon this.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div><br>

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On 12/16/05, mhyoung <mhyoung@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> I have seen plenty of games where Undead are immune to Stream of
> Corruption as standard.
>

Yep, can understand that, though not intended.

Should be make an explicit notation against the spell? (and perhaps make th=
e
description more inclusive -- Jim suggested "corrosive" as a nice word).

Cheers,
Martin

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On 12/16/05, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">mhyoung</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mhyoung@xtra.co.nz">mhyoung@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=3D"=
gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:=
 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex=
;">







<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I have seen plenty of games where Unde=
ad are immune=20
to Stream of Corruption as standard.</font></div></blockquote><div><br>
Yep, can understand that, though not intended.<br>
<br>
Should be make an explicit notation against the spell? (and perhaps
make the description more inclusive -- Jim suggested &quot;corrosive&quot; =
as a
nice word).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
</div></div><br>

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Quoting Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>:

> Jim said:
>
> "The reason that I have gone for bland is so that players can quest for
> points of
> difference, if they want them. It would not be hard for me to come up
> something
> cool. The temptation is great. But, there is some risk in raising the bar on
> what a player considers cool as a point of difference. In creating a
> non-bland
> base ruleset, you raise the bar on what players perceive as cool."
>
>
> So we want to make all the base colleges as bland as possible? I'd advocate
> for making them as varied and interesting as possible, just so long as we
> make sure they are reasonably balanced. The variety adds flavour.

Also, flavour adds power, usually. It's hard to take away power once given. You
may have noticed some screaming in recent days. And, I'm not against flavour or
power. I just don't want to be the one writing it up. Players should be doing
their bit to make the world different and interesting, rather than depending on
the ruleset to do it for them.

Bland is a good place to start from, although it's not a good place to stay.
Things that are highly coloured tend to influence development in particular
directions.
>
> I realise that you have defined the problem solely as one of Hellfire (and
> Necrosis) limiting player choices and you have avoided talking about power
> levels of spells. But to me the reason those spells robbed players of valid
> choices is precisely because they were overpowered in comparison to the other
> spells available within those respective colleges.

Well, not to put to fine a point on it, I think the same thing is true of
Whirlwind Vortex.

I agree with you that it's a function of the relative power of the other spells
in the college. The choice is to increase the other spells, which is a bit on
the frightening side, or decrease the trouble spells.

Jim


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Well, to be honest, I don't really care how the Stream of Corruption thing
works. I mean, I had been under the impression that the stuff just leaked up
out of the ground and was just somehow nasty, in which case I would have ruled
that it wouldn't have affected most undead or creatures of mana or constructs.

It hadn't occurred to me that the stuff shot out like bone shrapnel, and
although pretty bloody repellant, I'm quite happy to go with that
rationalisation. Or, the corrosive thing. Well, with one of them, anyway.

Jim.

Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:


> Should we make an explicit notation against the spell? (and perhaps make the
> description more inclusive -- Jim suggested "corrosive" as a nice word).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>


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Download link for the 2005 GM's
Guide<http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/%7Eapollyon/dqfiles/DQGMGuide2005.pdf>(PD=
F
4.5 Mb), also available via the Rules pages on the Wiki.

Cheers,
Martin

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Download link for the <a href=3D"http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/%7Eapollyon/dq=
files/DQGMGuide2005.pdf">2005 GM's Guide</a> (PDF 4.5 Mb), also available v=
ia the Rules pages on the Wiki.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>

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Quoting mhyoung <mhyoung@xtra.co.nz>:

> I agree, single target and adjust the EM to 550. You could think about
> reducing the range to say 30 +5/rank maybe.
>

I am not sure nerfing spells by doing things like reducing the range or the base
chance or the critical damage does all that much, in and of itself.

Reducing the range equation is going to simply give a character good reasons to
rank the spell even higher. It might be a reasonable idea so that the spell is
more in line with other spells. But, I think it's important to stop slamming
penalties on spells when they are considered tough. It's too much of a
knee-jerk reaction, and it hasn't really done much but give players more reason
to neglect the rest of their college.

Jim.


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