Currently there are no real rules or guidelines as to how Quickness and
Slowness are played in combat. We have the way we have been playing it
forever but I am not sure it is the best way and my proposal seeks to
fix some of the problems with it. 

Slowness

My Concerns. 

1. Slowness removes someone acting every pulse, this takes away player
enjoyment reducing the amount of involvement in the combat. 
2. Slowness adds to the complexity for the GM. Recalling who moves on
what pulse. It is a minor irritant but still additional work for the GM.


Currently the spell reads 

All entities subject to this spell have
their running, crawling, flying, or swimming speed
halved and have the time it takes them to do anything
on the Tactical Display doubled (e.g. they could only
attack once every two pulses).

If we take the spell description as written then it simply takes longer
to do things, preparing a potion takes 2 actions, but you would be doing
things every pulse. You can only move at half TMR but still move every
pulse. 

This fixes the concerns above but leaves us with two areas that need
some changes to balance things. 

1. I suggest a fixed penalty to attack and defence to reflect the slowed
reactions instead of the attack once every two pulses. 
2. We leave fire actions as a single action regardless of if the
character is slowed. This means spell casting would take 3 pulses,
firing a bow three pulses etc (Yes counterspell casting namers can still
cast each pulse.) 

In regards to the penalties I have not really thought to hard about the
numbers but my initial thought is to simply halve the BC and Def, but
there are people on the list that have far more skill at number
crunching and working out the likely game impact. The numbers would need
to provide a serious penalty without making slowness worse than it
currently is. 

With the fire actions it simply seems to make more sence to me to have
them take a single action (how long does it take to release a bow string
even when you are slow? I think the penaties of reduced defence and half
TMR and extra time to prepare/load bows is still enough of a penalty. 

Quickness

For quickness I think we should simply have the second actions performed
with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the old version.
As far as I can tell the change to quickness has vertually no
detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do two actions
together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end of pulse'.

This would mean, in conjunction with the slowness changes, that each
pulse each PC or NPC has 1 set of actions every pulse regarless of
Quickness/Slowness/Agony. This simplifies the combat for the GM and
allows the PC's to maintain their contact with the combat every pulse. 

As a notice to players on my next game I will be playtesting this unless
anyone on the list finds a huge gaping flaw I havn't spotted. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I liked Andrews outline for changes to the Necro college. 

It created choice within the college improved the really weak spells
(SoC HoD) and reduced the effectivness of Necrosis to bring it more in
line with the others. 

People were not keen on the Stunning on a resist so I present an
alternative resist effect of fear. 

Making Necrosis

Necrosis:
[D+1}(+2/Rank) damage. 1 target + 1 / 3 ranks.  If resisted, the target 
takes no physical damage, but must make a 2xWP check or roll on the Fear
table.  Only works on living.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

you may wish Slowness to lower the initiative of the target (engaged and unengaged). 

BTW - does Slowness affect the mental acuity of the target? I feel it doesnt, so no impact on PC etc. just purely physical slowing. 

I never liked the alternate pulse sleep effects...

Ian

> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:04:01 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.
> 
> Currently there are no real rules or guidelines as to how Quickness and
> Slowness are played in combat. We have the way we have been playing it
> forever but I am not sure it is the best way and my proposal seeks to
> fix some of the problems with it.
> 
> Slowness
> 
> My Concerns.
> 
> 1. Slowness removes someone acting every pulse, this takes away player
> enjoyment reducing the amount of involvement in the combat.
> 2. Slowness adds to the complexity for the GM. Recalling who moves on
> what pulse. It is a minor irritant but still additional work for the GM.
> 
> 
> Currently the spell reads
> 
> All entities subject to this spell have
> their running, crawling, flying, or swimming speed
> halved and have the time it takes them to do anything
> on the Tactical Display doubled (e.g. they could only
> attack once every two pulses).
> 
> If we take the spell description as written then it simply takes longer
> to do things, preparing a potion takes 2 actions, but you would be doing
> things every pulse. You can only move at half TMR but still move every
> pulse.
> 
> This fixes the concerns above but leaves us with two areas that need
> some changes to balance things.
> 
> 1. I suggest a fixed penalty to attack and defence to reflect the slowed
> reactions instead of the attack once every two pulses.
> 2. We leave fire actions as a single action regardless of if the
> character is slowed. This means spell casting would take 3 pulses,
> firing a bow three pulses etc (Yes counterspell casting namers can still
> cast each pulse.)
> 
> In regards to the penalties I have not really thought to hard about the
> numbers but my initial thought is to simply halve the BC and Def, but
> there are people on the list that have far more skill at number
> crunching and working out the likely game impact. The numbers would need
> to provide a serious penalty without making slowness worse than it
> currently is.
> 
> With the fire actions it simply seems to make more sence to me to have
> them take a single action (how long does it take to release a bow string
> even when you are slow? I think the penaties of reduced defence and half
> TMR and extra time to prepare/load bows is still enough of a penalty.
> 
> Quickness
> 
> For quickness I think we should simply have the second actions performed
> with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the old version.
> As far as I can tell the change to quickness has vertually no
> detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do two actions
> together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end of pulse'.
> 
> This would mean, in conjunction with the slowness changes, that each
> pulse each PC or NPC has 1 set of actions every pulse regarless of
> Quickness/Slowness/Agony. This simplifies the combat for the GM and
> allows the PC's to maintain their contact with the combat every pulse.
> 
> As a notice to players on my next game I will be playtesting this unless
> anyone on the list finds a huge gaping flaw I havn't spotted.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I dont like spell effects that dont apply if the target _fails_ to resist, but switch on if they _do_ resist.

Secondly, MAgical Fear does not feel like a 'necrosis' effect to me. Immediate infection of all existing wounds (take 1 FT per pulse per prior wound, minimum 0) due to necrosis of the flesh. On a resist you get a WP check per wound. Or numbing of the body, scores and skin dying etc. 

I realise the desire is for a non-damaging resist effect. Just not sure this is part of the spell.

Ian

> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:09:54 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary Necro's
> 
> I liked Andrews outline for changes to the Necro college.
> 
> It created choice within the college improved the really weak spells
> (SoC HoD) and reduced the effectivness of Necrosis to bring it more in
> line with the others.
> 
> People were not keen on the Stunning on a resist so I present an
> alternative resist effect of fear.
> 
> Making Necrosis
> 
> Necrosis:
> [D+1}(+2/Rank) damage. 1 target + 1 / 3 ranks.  If resisted, the target
> takes no physical damage, but must make a 2xWP check or roll on the Fear
> table.  Only works on living.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I'm still think if I like this Quickness idea. Independent of that
opinion, some technical considerations:

It seems easier to admin.

Under this approach:
* Slowness and snap shooting or namer CS - no action loss. I'd drop the
"Fire = 1 action" exception.
* Slowness and AG 26 - odd. Workable, I think.
* Slowness and Quickness - almost cancels out.

If Slowness gives action penalties (I'd go with -30 - halving BC of
attack means you always miss), then Quickness should give bonuses, as
Slow vs normal = normal vs Quickness. Quickness doesn't need more
bonuses, and Slowness dones't need more penalties.

If both Quickness actions are resolved at the same time, I'd drop the
initiative bonus - getting BOTH actions before your opponent even though
you have 5 less IV normally seems odd.

What happens with stun - two recoveries on your action? If recover on
1st, can act on second, I guess.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:32 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.



you may wish Slowness to lower the initiative of the target (engaged and
unengaged). 

BTW - does Slowness affect the mental acuity of the target? I feel it
doesnt, so no impact on PC etc. just purely physical slowing. 

I never liked the alternate pulse sleep effects...

Ian

> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:04:01 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.
> 
> Currently there are no real rules or guidelines as to how Quickness 
> and Slowness are played in combat. We have the way we have been 
> playing it forever but I am not sure it is the best way and my 
> proposal seeks to fix some of the problems with it.
> 
> Slowness
> 
> My Concerns.
> 
> 1. Slowness removes someone acting every pulse, this takes away player

> enjoyment reducing the amount of involvement in the combat. 2. 
> Slowness adds to the complexity for the GM. Recalling who moves on 
> what pulse. It is a minor irritant but still additional work for the 
> GM.
> 
> 
> Currently the spell reads
> 
> All entities subject to this spell have
> their running, crawling, flying, or swimming speed
> halved and have the time it takes them to do anything
> on the Tactical Display doubled (e.g. they could only
> attack once every two pulses).
> 
> If we take the spell description as written then it simply takes 
> longer to do things, preparing a potion takes 2 actions, but you would

> be doing things every pulse. You can only move at half TMR but still 
> move every pulse.
> 
> This fixes the concerns above but leaves us with two areas that need 
> some changes to balance things.
> 
> 1. I suggest a fixed penalty to attack and defence to reflect the 
> slowed reactions instead of the attack once every two pulses. 2. We 
> leave fire actions as a single action regardless of if the character 
> is slowed. This means spell casting would take 3 pulses, firing a bow 
> three pulses etc (Yes counterspell casting namers can still cast each 
> pulse.)
> 
> In regards to the penalties I have not really thought to hard about 
> the numbers but my initial thought is to simply halve the BC and Def, 
> but there are people on the list that have far more skill at number 
> crunching and working out the likely game impact. The numbers would 
> need to provide a serious penalty without making slowness worse than 
> it currently is.
> 
> With the fire actions it simply seems to make more sence to me to have

> them take a single action (how long does it take to release a bow 
> string even when you are slow? I think the penaties of reduced defence

> and half TMR and extra time to prepare/load bows is still enough of a 
> penalty.
> 
> Quickness
> 
> For quickness I think we should simply have the second actions 
> performed with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the 
> old version. As far as I can tell the change to quickness has 
> vertually no detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do 
> two actions together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end 
> of pulse'.
> 
> This would mean, in conjunction with the slowness changes, that each 
> pulse each PC or NPC has 1 set of actions every pulse regarless of 
> Quickness/Slowness/Agony. This simplifies the combat for the GM and 
> allows the PC's to maintain their contact with the combat every pulse.
> 
> As a notice to players on my next game I will be playtesting this 
> unless anyone on the list finds a huge gaping flaw I havn't spotted.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

How about, resist or not, you get a rotting gangrenous disease that
takes a Healer of skill Rank/2 to fix.


Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:40 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary
Necro's


I dont like spell effects that dont apply if the target _fails_ to
resist, but switch on if they _do_ resist.

Secondly, MAgical Fear does not feel like a 'necrosis' effect to me.
Immediate infection of all existing wounds (take 1 FT per pulse per
prior wound, minimum 0) due to necrosis of the flesh. On a resist you
get a WP check per wound. Or numbing of the body, scores and skin dying
etc. 

I realise the desire is for a non-damaging resist effect. Just not sure
this is part of the spell.

Ian

> 
> From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:09:54 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary 
> Necro's
> 
> I liked Andrews outline for changes to the Necro college.
> 
> It created choice within the college improved the really weak spells 
> (SoC HoD) and reduced the effectivness of Necrosis to bring it more in

> line with the others.
> 
> People were not keen on the Stunning on a resist so I present an 
> alternative resist effect of fear.
> 
> Making Necrosis
> 
> Necrosis:
> [D+1}(+2/Rank) damage. 1 target + 1 / 3 ranks.  If resisted, the 
> target takes no physical damage, but must make a 2xWP check or roll on

> the Fear table.  Only works on living.
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Related Quickness idea:

Either you get two actions on your initiative, or one action at + 20 IV
- for when you really want to go first.

(Also ties in well with changing rear IV to + 20 or +30)

Give more tactical options, no/little more admin.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----

If both Quickness actions are resolved at the same time, I'd drop the
initiative bonus - getting BOTH actions before your opponent even though
you have 5 less IV normally seems odd.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276A.1B7CB694
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf =
Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 08:04
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.=20
>=20
>=20
> Currently there are no real rules or guidelines as to how=20
> Quickness and
> Slowness are played in combat. We have the way we have been playing =
it
> forever but I am not sure it is the best way and my proposal seeks to
> fix some of the problems with it.=20
>=20
> Slowness
<snip>
>=20
> 1. I suggest a fixed penalty to attack and defence to reflect=20
> the slowed
> reactions instead of the attack once every two pulses.=20
> 2. We leave fire actions as a single action regardless of if the
> character is slowed. This means spell casting would take 3 pulses,
> firing a bow three pulses etc (Yes counterspell casting=20
> namers can still
> cast each pulse.)=20
>=20
> In regards to the penalties I have not really thought to hard=20
> about the
> numbers but my initial thought is to simply halve the BC and Def,=20

Do you mean the Base Chance:
"Base Chance The base percentage chance of hitting
with a weapon, as listed in the Weapon Chart (=A756.1)." (varies from =
30 to
65)

or Strike Chance
"The standard percentage chance of
hitting with a weapon; it is a combination of Base
Chance, Manual Dexterity, Rank and magic.
start of combat."

or something else - (BC + MD + Rank) before magic?

Against anyone with a reasonable defence, reducing SC has a large =
affect on
Modified SC (SC less defence). Most of the time, you will be better off =
with
a unpenalised Modified SC every other pulse than a much worse Modified =
SC
every pulse. Although your opponent may lose the option of the "Evade =
(your
attack) - Attack (you can't act) - Evade (your attack).." pattern.

but
> there are people on the list that have far more skill at number
> crunching and working out the likely game impact. The numbers=20
> would need
> to provide a serious penalty without making slowness worse than it
> currently is.=20
>=20

I think it will be quite tricky to come up with something that has a =
similar
level of effect across most situations.


> With the fire actions it simply seems to make more sence to me to =
have
> them take a single action (how long does it take to release a=20
> bow string
> even when you are slow? I think the penaties of reduced=20
> defence and half
> TMR and extra time to prepare/load bows is still enough of a penalty. =


Concept seems not completely broken at first glance.

>=20
> Quickness
>=20
> For quickness I think we should simply have the second=20
> actions performed
> with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the=20
> old version.
> As far as I can tell the change to quickness has vertually no
> detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do two actions
> together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end of pulse'.
>=20

Again impact on Attack-Evade patterns.

> This would mean, in conjunction with the slowness changes, that each
> pulse each PC or NPC has 1 set of actions every pulse regarless of
> Quickness/Slowness/Agony. This simplifies the combat for the GM and
> allows the PC's to maintain their contact with the combat=20
> every pulse.=20
>=20
> As a notice to players on my next game I will be playtesting=20
> this unless
> anyone on the list finds a huge gaping flaw I havn't spotted.=20
>=20

You know, I'm not sure this is a good way of trying this sort of thing =
out.
Not that I have a specific better suggestion at this stage, but I'm =
sure
there are better ways of doing a first check for impact on combat.

Cheers
Errol

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276A.1B7CB694
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Quickness and Slowness. </TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 08:04</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Quickness and Slowness. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Currently there are no real rules or guidelines =
as to how </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Quickness and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Slowness are played in combat. We have the way =
we have been playing it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; forever but I am not sure it is the best way =
and my proposal seeks to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fix some of the problems with it. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Slowness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 1. I suggest a fixed penalty to attack and =
defence to reflect </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the slowed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; reactions instead of the attack once every two =
pulses. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 2. We leave fire actions as a single action =
regardless of if the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; character is slowed. This means spell casting =
would take 3 pulses,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; firing a bow three pulses etc (Yes counterspell =
casting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; namers can still</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; cast each pulse.) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In regards to the penalties I have not really =
thought to hard </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; about the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; numbers but my initial thought is to simply =
halve the BC and Def, </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Do you mean the Base Chance:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;Base Chance The base percentage chance of =
hitting</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>with a weapon, as listed in the Weapon Chart =
(=A756.1).&quot; (varies from 30 to 65)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>or Strike Chance</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&quot;The standard percentage chance of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hitting with a weapon; it is a combination of =
Base</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Chance, Manual Dexterity, Rank and magic.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>start of combat.&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>or something else - (BC + MD + Rank) before =
magic?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Against anyone with a reasonable defence, reducing SC =
has a large affect on Modified SC (SC less defence). Most of the time, =
you will be better off with a unpenalised Modified SC every other pulse =
than a much worse Modified SC every pulse. Although your opponent may =
lose the option of the &quot;Evade (your attack) - Attack (you can't =
act) - Evade (your attack)..&quot; pattern.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; there are people on the list that have far more =
skill at number</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; crunching and working out the likely game =
impact. The numbers </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; would need</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; to provide a serious penalty without making =
slowness worse than it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; currently is. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think it will be quite tricky to come up with =
something that has a similar level of effect across most =
situations.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; With the fire actions it simply seems to make =
more sence to me to have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; them take a single action (how long does it =
take to release a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; bow string</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; even when you are slow? I think the penaties of =
reduced </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; defence and half</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; TMR and extra time to prepare/load bows is =
still enough of a penalty. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Concept seems not completely broken at first =
glance.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Quickness</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; For quickness I think we should simply have the =
second </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; actions performed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; with the primary action in a similar fashion to =
26AG in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; old version.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As far as I can tell the change to quickness =
has vertually no</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; detrimental impact as realistically quickened =
people do two actions</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; together at the moment we just break them up =
with an 'end of pulse'.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Again impact on Attack-Evade patterns.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This would mean, in conjunction with the =
slowness changes, that each</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; pulse each PC or NPC has 1 set of actions every =
pulse regarless of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Quickness/Slowness/Agony. This simplifies the =
combat for the GM and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; allows the PC's to maintain their contact with =
the combat </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; every pulse. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; As a notice to players on my next game I will =
be playtesting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this unless</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; anyone on the list finds a huge gaping flaw I =
havn't spotted. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You know, I'm not sure this is a good way of trying =
this sort of thing out. Not that I have a specific better suggestion at =
this stage, but I'm sure there are better ways of doing a first check =
for impact on combat.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276A.1B7CB694--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Maybe "the Rots" could also mildy inhibit (non-regenerative?) magical healing until 
they are cured, by 1 to 5 points (Rank dependant, naturally).

Just a suggestion to give it an "in-combat" effect, beyond an properly unpleasant 
lingering reasult, and one moe reason to love your healer...


ben

On Thu Feb  2  8:50 , 'Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)' <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> sent:

>How about, resist or not, you get a rotting gangrenous disease that
>takes a Healer of skill Rank/2 to fix.
>
>
>Andrew
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')">dq-
owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
>dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
>Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:40 a.m.
>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary
>Necro's
>
>
>I dont like spell effects that dont apply if the target _fails_ to
>resist, but switch on if they _do_ resist.
>
>Secondly, MAgical Fear does not feel like a 'necrosis' effect to me.
>Immediate infection of all existing wounds (take 1 FT per pulse per
>prior wound, minimum 0) due to necrosis of the flesh. On a resist you
>get a WP check per wound. Or numbing of the body, scores and skin dying
>etc. 
>
>I realise the desire is for a non-damaging resist effect. Just not sure
>this is part of the spell.
>
>Ian
>
>> 
>> From: Mandos Mitchinson MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
>> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:09:54 GMT+13:00
>> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary 
>> Necro's
>> 
>> I liked Andrews outline for changes to the Necro college.
>> 
>> It created choice within the college improved the really weak spells 
>> (SoC HoD) and reduced the effectivness of Necrosis to bring it more in
>
>> line with the others.
>> 
>> People were not keen on the Stunning on a resist so I present an 
>> alternative resist effect of fear.
>> 
>> Making Necrosis
>> 
>> Necrosis:
>> [D+1}(+2/Rank) damage. 1 target + 1 / 3 ranks.  If resisted, the 
>> target takes no physical damage, but must make a 2xWP check or roll on
>
>> the Fear table.  Only works on living.
>> 
>> Mandos
>> /s
>> 
>> 
>> -- to unsubscribe notify dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')">dq-
request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>>
>
>
>-- to unsubscribe notify dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')">dq-
request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Under this approach:
> * Slowness and snap shooting or namer CS - no action loss. 
> I'd drop the "Fire = action" exception.

Snap shooting is something that is still bugs me about the whole thing I
suspect it would take 2 pulses but then the rule is getting a bit
complex.
The fire exception came from the fact that it seems silly to take 10
seconds to release a bow and three pulses to cast a spell seemed enough
of a penatly. Plus we had a thread a while ago discussing that
counterspells were a bit depowered in the new college and this is a
minor effect that counters it. 
I think I would prefer to keep the fire actions at 1 action but I am not
tied to it at all. Would be good to playtest with and without and see
the differences. 

> * Slowness and AG 26 - odd. Workable, I think.
> * Slowness and Quickness - almost cancels out.
> 
> If Slowness gives action penalties (I'd go with -30 - halving 
> BC of attack means you always miss), then Quickness should 
> give bonuses, as Slow vs normal =ormal vs Quickness. 
> Quickness doesn't need more bonuses, and Slowness dones't 
> need more penalties.

The penalties are replacing the ability to strike 1 every two pulses. So
you hit more often but less effectivly. Making it the exact opposite of
Quickness takes us back to acting once every two pulses which I am very
keen to get away from. 

> If both Quickness actions are resolved at the same time, I'd 
> drop the initiative bonus - getting BOTH actions before your 
> opponent even though you have 5 less IV normally seems odd.

Nope you would get your two actions on your initative. If you go second
you get two actions second. 

> What happens with stun - two recoveries on your action? If 
> recover on 1st, can act on second, I guess.

Interesting call. Need to think about that one. At the moment the
quickened figure would get two chances to come out of stun, so it seems
reasonable to leave it. Changing it to one stun recovery works to
depower quickness which may be a good way to go but I am not sure it is
a vital point at the moment. Conclusions shoul probably be playtested to
see what works best. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Either you get two actions on your initiative, or one action 
> at + 20 IV
> - for when you really want to go first.
> 
> (Also ties in well with changing rear IV to + 20 or +30)
> 
> Give more tactical options, no/little more admin.

I like the idea, I am not sure about the 'no/little more admin' claim.
Personally I find shifting initatives a personal nightmare but it could
be an issue related to me personally L:-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> For quickness I think we should simply have the second 
> actions performed 
> with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the 
> > old version. 
> > As far as I can tell the change to quickness has vertually no 
> > detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do two actions 
> > together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end of pulse'.

> > 
> Again impact on Attack-Evade patterns.  

Actually no it doesn't. 

Currently 

Evade - Opponents go - Attack - End of pulse. 
Rinse and repeat. 

With the new system 

Attack - Evade - Opponents go -  End of pulse. 

If we take out the end of pulse we get 

Evade - Opponents go - Attack 
or
Attack - Evade - Opponents go

When we add the rince and repeat we get Evade - Opponents go - Attack -
Evade - Opponents go - Attack - Evade - Opponents go - Attack 

And we get the same pattern regardless of the way things are done. The
only change is where the end of pulse appears. I am not sure that makes
much difference outside of the extra stun recovery the first time. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276D.640D66DA
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"



> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 09:07
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.
> 
> 
> > Under this approach:
> > * Slowness and snap shooting or namer CS - no action loss. 
> > I'd drop the "Fire = action" exception.
> 
> Snap shooting is something that is still bugs me about the 
> whole thing I
> suspect it would take 2 pulses but then the rule is getting a bit
> complex.
> The fire exception came from the fact that it seems silly to take 10
> seconds to release a bow and three pulses to cast a spell 
> seemed enough
> of a penatly. Plus we had a thread a while ago discussing that
> counterspells were a bit depowered in the new college and this is a
> minor effect that counters it. 
<snip>

Counterspells aren't depowered in relation to the game in general, it's that
new options tend to be more useful for namers.
This change would make namers more powerful overall (in certain specific
situations).

Cheers
Errol

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276D.640D66DA
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 09:07</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and =
Slowness.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Under this approach:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; * Slowness and snap shooting or namer CS - =
no action loss. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; I'd drop the &quot;Fire =3D action&quot; =
exception.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Snap shooting is something that is still bugs =
me about the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; whole thing I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; suspect it would take 2 pulses but then the =
rule is getting a bit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; complex.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The fire exception came from the fact that it =
seems silly to take 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; seconds to release a bow and three pulses to =
cast a spell </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; seemed enough</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of a penatly. Plus we had a thread a while ago =
discussing that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; counterspells were a bit depowered in the new =
college and this is a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; minor effect that counters it. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Counterspells aren't depowered in relation to the =
game in general, it's that new options tend to be more useful for =
namers.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This change would make namers more powerful overall =
(in certain specific situations).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276D.640D66DA--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Counterspells aren't depowered in relation to the game in general,
it's that new options
> tend to be more useful for namers.
> This change would make namers more powerful overall (in certain
specific situations). 

True. But is that a bad thing? 

If it were a change for changes sake I would probably say it shouldn't
be done, but as a knock-on effect from a change which I think improves
the game, does this aspect of the change make the game worse to play? 

I don't think so and the more I look at it I think it is quite a nice
little bonus for Namers (most of whome will resist slowness anyway if
they know about the E&E :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276E.385B4D12
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"



> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 09:15
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness. 
> 
> 
> > For quickness I think we should simply have the second 
> > actions performed 
> > with the primary action in a similar fashion to 26AG in the 
> > > old version. 
> > > As far as I can tell the change to quickness has vertually no 
> > > detrimental impact as realistically quickened people do 
> two actions 
> > > together at the moment we just break them up with an 'end 
> of pulse'.
> 
> > > 
> > Again impact on Attack-Evade patterns.  
> 
> Actually no it doesn't. 
> 

<snip>

> And we get the same pattern regardless of the way things are done. The
> only change is where the end of pulse appears. 


You're right.


> I am not sure 
> that makes
> much difference outside of the extra stun recovery the first time. 
> 

Hmmm. I'm obviously currently lacking spare brain capacity to think about
this (and the IT bloke should get back to me soon).

Errol

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276E.385B4D12
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Quickness and Slowness. </TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 09:15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; For quickness I think we should simply =
have the second </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; actions performed </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; with the primary action in a similar =
fashion to 26AG in the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; old version. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; As far as I can tell the change to =
quickness has vertually no </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; detrimental impact as realistically =
quickened people do </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; two actions </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; together at the moment we just break =
them up with an 'end </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of pulse'.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Again impact on Attack-Evade =
patterns.&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Actually no it doesn't. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And we get the same pattern regardless of the =
way things are done. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; only change is where the end of pulse appears. =
</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>You're right.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I am not sure </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that makes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; much difference outside of the extra stun =
recovery the first time. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hmmm. I'm obviously currently lacking spare brain =
capacity to think about this (and the IT bloke should get back to me =
soon).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6276E.385B4D12--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>If it were a change for changes sake I would probably say it shouldn't
>be done, but as a knock-on effect from a change which I think improves
>the game, does this aspect of the change make the game worse to play? 
>
>I don't think so and the more I look at it I think it is quite a nice
>little bonus for Namers (most of whome will resist slowness anyway if
>they know about the E&E :-)

More universally, it's depowering this E&E spell in regards to those colleges with 
combat use, fire action magics, which may include some Talents.  I'm trying to recall 
whether DA requires a Magical Pass action or a Fire (OTTOMH I'd allow either, 
but...), but as it has valid combat applications and is the most common ability in 
the game, it wouldn't just be a bonus to Namers.

However, without conjecture about particular items that only require a Fire action to 
trigger, even the most dedicated the Namer or Aura Detector is going find something 
more pressing in combat before they run out of things to zap or scry in defiance of 
the Slowness.



ben


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

The extra complexity of Fire actions being different from others,
associated with a random or calculated shift in balance towards
triggered items, counterspells and snapshooting has no redeeming
features that I have found.

Sorry, Mandos, I just don't get it.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 9:29 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.



If it were a change for changes sake I would probably say it shouldn't
be done, but as a knock-on effect from a change which I think improves
the game, does this aspect of the change make the game worse to play? 

I don't think so and the more I look at it I think it is quite a nice
little bonus for Namers (most of whome will resist slowness anyway if
they know about the E&E :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> The extra complexity of Fire actions being different from 
> others, associated with a random or calculated shift in 
> balance towards triggered items, counterspells and 
> snapshooting has no redeeming features that I have found.
> 
> Sorry, Mandos, I just don't get it.

No problems I get the feeling your sceptisism is shared :0) 

Assume that bit to be removed for further discussions. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> > The extra complexity of Fire actions being different from
> > others, associated with a random or calculated shift in 
> > balance towards triggered items, counterspells and 
> > snapshooting has no redeeming features that I have found.
> > 
> > Sorry, Mandos, I just don't get it.
> 
> No problems I get the feeling your sceptisism is shared :0) 

Thinking about it, it may be easier to have the weapon fire action to
have the same SC penalty as a weapon blow? 

My only concern is I dislike releasing an arrow taking 10 seconds.
Unless the bow is also slowed and that just gets silly.

How much complexity would it be to add some ranged weapon rules for
slowness or is that simply making the whole thing to complex? 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Regardless of the seen or understood problems or fix to quickness / slowness
I think it is important to take into account:

E&Es should remain completely in demand for their abilities within a group.
E&Es should retain a unique area of control which is in demand.
E&Es should retain their HUGE effect and a must have at hard medium and
higher level games.

E&E mages do not have a large range of things that they can contribute to a
group with in a combat situation, but what little they do, has a large
effect.

Also given the 'fix' to greater enchantment, the changes to 'invisability
rules' in general in the last five years, and phase of the moon, I would be
in favour of great care being taken, not to depower them - as player
enjoyment for E&Es and other players and GMs is the aim, with a system that
works well at run time.

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Re-reading Mandos's initial proposal, I realise I done him wrong. Fire
actions AND Melee Attack actions were propsed to be every pulse, not
just Fire actions.

This (a) makes Fire actions less of an exception, but (b) the only two
effective actions (hit & fire) wouldn't be slowed, while all the other
actions (move, maneouver, drink, prepare) take longer. This seems to
create an odd tension - either you are doing nothing, slowly, or you are
doing something at normal speed. E.g. you drop your sword. It takes 2
pulses to pick it up, and then you can strike each pulse (with a
penalty).

The tension between the two approaches seems rather odd. I'd rather have
the less conquential actions not slowed, but the effective actions
slowed, rather than the converse. Better, still have all working then
same way (whichever way).

As a completely different approach, each pulse:
(a) you can move 1/2 TMR, or
(b) (i) you can toss a coin on your action. Heads you act, Tails you
wait. This means there is always a chance, and weird chance/dice
affecting actions may be used occasionally in crunch circumstances,
making it less absolute.
(b) (ii) Or you make an MR vs E&E each pulse, success, you get to act.
This means PCs can slowly unslow the party, as they reach a E&E CS or as
each receives one.

As a GM, its no good taken literally (I flip 46 coins!), but for PCs it
might create tension between pulses (Will I act, what can I do, what if
he gets to act this pulse). As a GM I would then move whichever slowed
NPCs I remember, or whichever would add dramatic tension.

More thoughts.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 10:18 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.


> The extra complexity of Fire actions being different from
> others, associated with a random or calculated shift in 
> balance towards triggered items, counterspells and 
> snapshooting has no redeeming features that I have found.
> 
> Sorry, Mandos, I just don't get it.

No problems I get the feeling your sceptisism is shared :0) 

Assume that bit to be removed for further discussions. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Re-reading Mandos's initial proposal, I realise I done him 
> wrong. Fire actions AND Melee Attack actions were propsed to 
> be every pulse, not just Fire actions.
> 
> This (a) makes Fire actions less of an exception, but (b) the 
> only two effective actions (hit & fire) wouldn't be slowed, 
> while all the other actions (move, maneouver, drink, prepare) 
> take longer. This seems to create an odd tension - either you 
> are doing nothing, slowly, or you are doing something at 
> normal speed. E.g. you drop your sword. It takes 2 pulses to 
> pick it up, and then you can strike each pulse (with a penalty).
> 
> The tension between the two approaches seems rather odd. I'd 
> rather have the less conquential actions not slowed, but the 
> effective actions slowed, rather than the converse. Better, 
> still have all working then same way (whichever way).

The idea being that anything that occours in a single pulse has a
negative modifier to reflect the fact that it is occouring slower. 

Hitting someone actually takes 1-2 seconds, we make it take 5 seconds
for convieniance, I presume the extra secods are filled with feints and
looking for gaps in the defence etc, doubling the time to hit someone
then takes 4-5 seconds removing that percieving time and thus reducing
their effectivness as well as the opponent having more time to see the
blow coming. 

So you pick up the sword slowly and hit people slowly. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62779.088B9CB2
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

We should have a draft pdf file with the explicitly approved Rulebook
changes ready by Friday night (this version won't have any of the Minor
Fixes, or the 3 or so items not signed off yet).
 
Can I have a couple of volunteers to proof the pdf against the changes
listed on the Wiki please. I expect this will take about half an hour,
preferably on Saturday or Sunday.
Please email myself if interested.
 
 
 
For the next stage, I would like to spread the load of applying the dozens
of Minor Fixes to the underlying files over the next couple of weeks.
Anyone interested in helping please email myself - the more helpers, the
more that will get done.
Set up for Windows involves a 10Mb download (or copy from a flash drive) for
the change control software. After this, file changes can be done offline,
with occasional updates (fine over dial-up).
 
Thank you
Errol

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62779.088B9CB2
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] {Rulebook} Languages - Eloran and Kipchak</TITLE>

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>We 
should have a draft pdf file with the explicitly approved Rulebook changes ready 
by Friday night (this version won't have any of the Minor Fixes, or the 3 or so 
items not signed off yet).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>Can I 
have a couple of volunteers to proof the pdf against the changes listed on the 
Wiki please. I expect this will take about half an hour, preferably on Saturday 
or Sunday.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>Please 
email myself if interested.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>For 
the next stage, I would like to spread the load of applying the dozens of Minor 
Fixes to the underlying files over the next couple of weeks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>Anyone 
interested in helping please email myself - the more helpers, the more that will 
get done.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>Set up 
for Windows involves a 10Mb download (or copy from a flash drive) for the change 
control software. After this, file changes can be done offline, with occasional 
updates (fine over dial-up).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=789351021-01022006>Thank 
you</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=789351021-01022006>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62779.088B9CB2--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Regardless of the seen or understood problems or fix to 
> quickness / slowness I think it is important to take into account:
> 
> E&Es should remain completely in demand for their abilities 
> within a group. E&Es should retain a unique area of control 
> which is in demand. E&Es should retain their HUGE effect and 
> a must have at hard medium and higher level games.
> 
> E&E mages do not have a large range of things that they can 
> contribute to a group with in a combat situation, but what 
> little they do, has a large effect.
> 
> Also given the 'fix' to greater enchantment, the changes to 
> 'invisability rules' in general in the last five years, and 
> phase of the moon, I would be in favour of great care being 
> taken, not to depower them - as player enjoyment for E&Es and 
> other players and GMs is the aim, with a system that works 
> well at run time.

I concour. 

However at the moment, other than the specified action of hitting
people, all the ideas put forward are currently in the rules. It is only
the way we have interpreted them that is changing. 

Quickness says you get an extra action. It does not say when that
occours. 
Slowness says things take twice as long. It only specifies hitting
things occouring once every two pulses. 

I really think that allowing people to act every pulse is a real
improvement to the game and upholds the philosophy of keeping people
involved and encourageing participation and fun. 

The benefits to the GM in simplifying runtime are a bonus as well :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 10:22, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:

> 
> My only concern is I dislike releasing an arrow taking 10 seconds.
> Unless the bow is also slowed and that just gets silly.

Think of it like this.
Prepare pulse: you pull the arrow from the quiver, notch it to the
string, draw the bow while pointing it in vaguely the right direction. 

Fire pulse: you fine-tune the pull on the bow, carefully align it with
the target, hold your breath, release your hold on the arrow, maintain
firm grip on the bow until the arrow is well on its way.

So the "release your hold" bit only takes a fraction of the fire pulse.
The rest of the stuff is what takes the time, and justifies the fire
pulse being slowed. You can indeed do the "release" in negligible time -
if you do it at the end of the prepare pulse, you've done a snap-shoot.

I'm not an archer, so I'm only guessing at what is involved here.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

In regards to quickness I would like to see the spell broken out into
different SK spells or have effects happen at given ranks. I would also like
to remove completely the 'second action' from the game.

Different effects could be along the lines of:
TMR, IV, SC, Pass actions.

E&E Quickness:
Range: 15 feet +15 per rank
Duration: 10 sec + 10 per rank
EM: 200
BC: 20
Resist:
Storage: None
Targets: 1 per 3 ranks
Effect:
+1 TMR per 5 ranks maximum not above spell rank or +2 TMR per 5 ranks if the
E&E has your General Knowledge name.

E&E Slowness:
Range: 15 feet +15 per rank
Duration: 20 sec + 10 per rank
EM: 150
BC: 20
Resist:
Storage: None
Targets: 1 per 3 ranks
Effect:
-2 TMR per 5 ranks minimun of 1, -10 IV per 5 ranks minimun of weapon rank.
The target gets -10 to MR if the E&E has your General Knowledge name.

E&E Haste:
Range: 15 feet +15 per rank
Duration: 1 min + 1 per rank
EM: 200
BC: 30
Resist:
Storage: None
Targets: 1 per 3 ranks
Effect:
+10 IV per 5 ranks, +1 pass action at rank 10 if the E&E has your General
Knowledge name.
At rank 10 and 20 casters get -2 to the dice rolls for working out Cast
Checks.


E&E Hinder:
Range: 15 feet +15 per rank
Duration: 30 sec + 30 per rank
EM: 150
BC: 20
Resist:
Storage: None
Targets: 1 per 3 ranks
Effect:
-10 IV per 5 ranks or -10 IV per 4 ranks if the E&E has your General
Knowledge name.
At rank 10 and 20 casters get +2 to the dice rolls for working out Cast
Checks.

etc etc

This is aimed at:
To remove a second action and slowed actions as they currently stand.
Retaining the dependance on E&E mages and having the over all effects of
E&Es being large.
To give options instead of the single demand on the one shot wonder effect
of everyone needing quickness first.


Jonathan


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> In regards to quickness I would like to see the spell broken 
> out into different SK spells or have effects happen at given 
> ranks. I would also like to remove completely the 'second 
> action' from the game.

Hi Jono, 

Would you be able to change the subject slightly when changing the
topic. It makes it a lot easier to tag which discussion is which and
avoids bogging down the original discussions. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6277D.517C2AC8
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there is no reason not to
have everything transparent. 
 
 <http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics>
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics 
 
I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to reflect the
December approval vote.
 
Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive
numbers in the 'TMR Mod' column of the table, and that this is just
improving readability?
I'll also put a "*" after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.
 
Cheers
Errol 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6277D.517C2AC8
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] {Rulebook} Languages - Eloran and Kipchak</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I guess this is mainly =
for Helen=20
and Stephen, but there is no reason not to have everything=20
transparent.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Stat=
istics"><FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006>&nbsp;</SPAN>http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dq=
wiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics</FONT></FONT></FONT></A><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to =
reflect the=20
December approval vote.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D944265221-01022006>Can=20
you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive =
numbers in=20
the 'TMR Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving=20
readability?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006>I'll&nbsp;also put a "*" after the "Rk" at =
the bottom=20
of each sub-table.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D944265221-01022006>Errol&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>=


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6277D.517C2AC8--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I noted that the vote failed for replacing rules regarding
overstrengthing. 

Could someone who was there give a rundown of why so that I can work to
fix whatever was wrong?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.

Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that missd it?
Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.

Thanks

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:23 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Overstrengthing



I noted that the vote failed for replacing rules regarding
overstrengthing. 

Could someone who was there give a rundown of why so that I can work to
fix whatever was wrong?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

my immediate thought is a preferance for:

Quickness = two actions, 1 at +10 IV, 1 at -30 IV. May always move 1 more hex per action. +10 DEF?

Slowness = 1 action at -30 IV. TMR is reduced by half? by 2? Cannot have TMR bonuses for high AG? -10 DEF?

(all adjustments subject to number crunching and ease of adjusting the Character sheet at run time (play time?)).

Ian

> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:52:53 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Quickness and Slowness.
> 
> 
> Related Quickness idea:
> 
> Either you get two actions on your initiative, or one action at + 20 IV
> - for when you really want to go first.
> 
> (Also ties in well with changing rear IV to + 20 or +30)
> 
> Give more tactical options, no/little more admin.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> 
> If both Quickness actions are resolved at the same time, I'd drop the
> initiative bonus - getting BOTH actions before your opponent even though
> you have 5 less IV normally seems odd.
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

cruel but strangely satisfying

Ian
> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:50:07 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary Necro's
> 
> How about, resist or not, you get a rotting gangrenous disease that
> takes a Healer of skill Rank/2 to fix.
> 
> 
> Andrew
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 8:40 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary
> Necro's
> 
> 
> I dont like spell effects that dont apply if the target _fails_ to
> resist, but switch on if they _do_ resist.
> 
> Secondly, MAgical Fear does not feel like a 'necrosis' effect to me.
> Immediate infection of all existing wounds (take 1 FT per pulse per
> prior wound, minimum 0) due to necrosis of the flesh. On a resist you
> get a WP check per wound. Or numbing of the body, scores and skin dying
> etc.
> 
> I realise the desire is for a non-damaging resist effect. Just not sure
> this is part of the spell.
> 
> Ian
> 
> >
> > From: Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>
> > Date: 2006/02/02 Thu AM 08:09:54 GMT+13:00
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Broken Spells IIII : The re-refocussing - Scary
> > Necro's
> >
> > I liked Andrews outline for changes to the Necro college.
> >
> > It created choice within the college improved the really weak spells
> > (SoC HoD) and reduced the effectivness of Necrosis to bring it more in
> 
> > line with the others.
> >
> > People were not keen on the Stunning on a resist so I present an
> > alternative resist effect of fear.
> >
> > Making Necrosis
> >
> > Necrosis:
> > [D+1}(+2/Rank) damage. 1 target + 1 / 3 ranks.  If resisted, the
> > target takes no physical damage, but must make a 2xWP check or roll on
> 
> > the Fear table.  Only works on living.
> >
> > Mandos
> > /s
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> I noted that the vote failed for replacing rules regarding
overstrengthing.
>
> Could someone who was there give a rundown of why so that I can work to
> fix whatever was wrong?
> Mandos

Voted on issue: (cut from the wiki).

Overstrengthing
The proposal is to re-add an edited version of the old overstrengthing rules
to add a negative to the ovrstrenthing option.

That 2% per additional point of damage be added to the chance of fumbling
with the weapon. Should a funble occour a 2%/point of additional damage
penalty will apply to the characters initiative for the purposes of
calculating the effect of the funble.

Resulted in a no thanks vote.
Some GMs feel that overstrenght should not have a down side as its one of
the few advantages that melee types gain over mage types. Along the lines
of: high MA is a basic add to casters, high PS should be a basic add to
melee. It does not need a down side.

I am of course giving you my view not Michaels view.

> Could someone who was there give a rundown of why so that I can work to
> fix whatever was wrong?

Could you see you way to changing things to allow skill and overstrenghting
for damage also please as a fix.

Kind regards,

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.
> 
> Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that 
> missd it? Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.

Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or run
through your own objections? I presume it wasn't a Cult of Personality
thing that swayed you :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62780.E85FDBB2
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I'll prompt Michael (via Jim) tonight.

Cheers
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Mandos Mitchinson
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing
> 
> 
> > Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.
> > 
> > Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that 
> > missd it? Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.
> 
> Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or run
> through your own objections? I presume it wasn't a Cult of Personality
> thing that swayed you :-)
> 
> Mandos
> /s
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62780.E85FDBB2
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Overstrengthing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I'll prompt Michael (via Jim) tonight.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Michael Young put a position at the time =
that swayed some of us.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Michael, could you summarise your opinion =
for those that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; missd it? Rather than me trying to put =
words into your mouth.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Given Michael doesn't post here often could you =
paraphrase? Or run</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; through your own objections? I presume it =
wasn't a Cult of Personality</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; thing that swayed you :-)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Mandos</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; /s</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C62780.E85FDBB2--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use magic
weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise anyway. Massive
strength should be useful. Why further penalise the few people unlucky
enough to have a magic weapon on a medium+ game?

NOTE - This balances in my head with my opinion about the desired
commonality of WoS and investeds, which means that if you have a water
mage, they should be of some use, and otherwise you don't get to
massively overstrength. It's probably a good thing that most of DQ
doesn't go anywhere near my head.

Mandos, as you note, I am easily swayed at the best of times, and
Michael's hypnotic gaze...

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing


> Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.
> 
> Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that
> missd it? Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.

Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or run
through your own objections? I presume it wasn't a Cult of Personality
thing that swayed you :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C627ED.FEEF8400
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

RE: [dq] OverstrengthingI am seeing Michael and Kelsie for lunch at
12:15pm - in around 35mins time.
I will ask him to post or get his view and post it as best I can.

Jono

  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
  Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:43 a.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing


  I'll prompt Michael (via Jim) tonight.

  Cheers
  Errol

  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
  > Mandos Mitchinson
  > Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39
  > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  > Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing
  >
  >
  > > Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.
  > >
  > > Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that
  > > missd it? Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.
  >
  > Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or run
  > through your own objections? I presume it wasn't a Cult of Personality
  > thing that swayed you :-)
  >
  > Mandos
  > /s
  >
  >
  > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
  >

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C627ED.FEEF8400
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [dq] Overstrengthing</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D605184322-01022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I am=20
seeing Michael and Kelsie for lunch at 12:15pm - in around 35mins=20
time.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D605184322-01022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I will=20
ask him to post or get his view and post it as best I =
can.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D605184322-01022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D605184322-01022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jono</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D605184322-01022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Errol =
Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:43 a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
  Overstrengthing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>I'll prompt Michael (via Jim) tonight.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On=
 Behalf=20
  Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Mandos Mitchinson</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
To:=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq]=20
  Overstrengthing</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; Michael Young put a position at =
the time=20
  that swayed some of us.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt; Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those =
that=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; missd it? Rather than me trying to =
put words=20
  into your mouth.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or =
run</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; through your own objections? I presume it =
wasn't a Cult=20
  of Personality</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; thing that swayed you =
:-)</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Mandos</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; /s</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A=
>=20
  --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C627ED.FEEF8400--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Resulted in a no thanks vote.
> Some GMs feel that overstrenght should not have a down side 
> as its one of the few advantages that melee types gain over 
> mage types. Along the lines of: high MA is a basic add to 
> casters, high PS should be a basic add to melee. It does not need a
down side.
> 
> I am of course giving you my view not Michaels view.

Cool, something to work with. 

If it was someone actual physical strength being used I would agree with
you, but High strength is something you get in a bottle, mages happily
overstrength in between casting spells with their high MA. It makes
daggers and Main gauches as effective (damagewise) as a warrior with a
Hand and a half in the hands of a weedy mage with a strength boost.  

By changing the rule, the melee types who have worked hard at their
weapons, ranked warrior and got high initative values have a much bigger
advantage over non-melee focused characters. Weedy mages won't
overstrenth because their init will not be high enough to stop the
funble occouring, while warriors will have bugger all chance of fumbling
due to high inits. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use 
> magic weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise 
> anyway. Massive strength should be useful. Why further 
> penalise the few people unlucky enough to have a magic weapon 
> on a medium+ game?

On the same lines, why give the people with the funky magical weapons an
even greater advantage over those who don't have them.  It causes a
fumble rather than a break which should affect all weapons with magical
ones only gaining the edge in the case of breaks. 

> NOTE - This balances in my head with my opinion about the 
> desired commonality of WoS and investeds, which means that if 
> you have a water mage, they should be of some use, and 
> otherwise you don't get to massively overstrength. It's 
> probably a good thing that most of DQ doesn't go anywhere 
> near my head.

Back to the potion making discussions from a few weeks ago :-) 

> Mandos, as you note, I am easily swayed at the best of times, 
> and Michael's hypnotic gaze...

Actually you are normally damn hard to sway :0) Hence my surprise at
your phrasing :-0)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Mages start with less PC but still end up at 25(ish), and tend to have
reasonable AG and max rank in their weapon. They tend to have lower
ranks in warrior, but not necessarily a lot lower. The IV difference may
be as large as 10 at low levels, but maybe 5 at high levels. On a
percentage scale, this doesn't help much.

The answer to this problem might be to limit PS magic - maybe not
allowing PS to be more than doubled by magic, or similar, to give the
fighters a chance.

This would address a number of things that I think are minor problems,
but others may regard as good features.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
By changing the rule, the melee types who have worked hard at their
weapons, ranked warrior and got high initative values have a much bigger
advantage over non-melee focused characters. Weedy mages won't
overstrenth because their init will not be high enough to stop the
funble occouring, while warriors will have bugger all chance of fumbling
due to high inits. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

To give a character example of massive PS. I have a character with 8 PS
and 33lb mass. Last night she had a potion which would have given her 41
PS, or with a little forethought, 51.

Leverage, relative mass, etc make it pretty silly. Maxing her enhanced
PS to 8*2 = 16 would be fantastic (as in fantasy) for her size, without
her being able to carry multiple humans or out-pull a horse.

This means the fighter in the party could get +24-ish, the mage-fighters
could get +15-ish, and the wimps could get what they deserved.


-----Original Message-----
The answer to this problem might be to limit PS magic - maybe not
allowing PS to be more than doubled by magic, or similar, to give the
fighters a chance.


Andrew


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Michael Woodhams <mdw@free.net.nz>:

Trained archers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow every other
second, and that's being very conservative. I don't know of a game that
attempts  to reflect how lethal they are, in reality. Just about every game I
have ever seen says that a bowman can have one or two discrete shots an action,
and that it does somewhat less damage than a melee weapon.

I suggest that there's a good reason for that.

Jim.

> On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 10:22, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
>
> >
> > My only concern is I dislike releasing an arrow taking 10 seconds.
> > Unless the bow is also slowed and that just gets silly.
>
> Think of it like this.
> Prepare pulse: you pull the arrow from the quiver, notch it to the
> string, draw the bow while pointing it in vaguely the right direction.
>
> Fire pulse: you fine-tune the pull on the bow, carefully align it with
> the target, hold your breath, release your hold on the arrow, maintain
> firm grip on the bow until the arrow is well on its way.
>
> So the "release your hold" bit only takes a fraction of the fire pulse.
> The rest of the stuff is what takes the time, and justifies the fire
> pulse being slowed. You can indeed do the "release" in negligible time -
> if you do it at the end of the prepare pulse, you've done a snap-shoot.
>
> I'm not an archer, so I'm only guessing at what is involved here.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> To give a character example of massive PS. I have a character 
> with 8 PS and 33lb mass. Last night she had a potion which 
> would have given her 41 PS, or with a little forethought, 51.
> 
> Leverage, relative mass, etc make it pretty silly. Maxing her 
> enhanced PS to 8*2 =6 would be fantastic (as in fantasy) for 
> her size, without her being able to carry multiple humans or 
> out-pull a horse.
> 
> This means the fighter in the party could get +24-ish, the 
> mage-fighters could get +15-ish, and the wimps could get what 
> they deserved.

Got the gist of the idea...I also like the extention of that that Giants
would get to have huge strengths which for me helps make up for tha
1.5EM. 

I am a bit confused by the numbers you gave 'PS to 8*2 =6 ' Was there a
1 missing? Presuming the idea is to max strength from magical means to
2xPS.

This would make me much happier about overstrengthing. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I agree extra strength should be useful. I just hate big minimum damage, be it from overstrengthing, weapon spells, magic weapons or whatever. I hate the 1d10 + 15 crap I often see in melee. So you are guaranteed to one shot an averagish person without fatiugue (16 end damage guaranteed). In fact its impossible for you to merely wound them.

I'd far rather see 2d10 or 3d10. Still likely to be a big pile of damage, but at least its still possible it will be a mere fleash wound ...



-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:45 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing


My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use magic
weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise anyway. Massive
strength should be useful. Why further penalise the few people unlucky
enough to have a magic weapon on a medium+ game?

NOTE - This balances in my head with my opinion about the desired
commonality of WoS and investeds, which means that if you have a water
mage, they should be of some use, and otherwise you don't get to
massively overstrength. It's probably a good thing that most of DQ
doesn't go anywhere near my head.

Mandos, as you note, I am easily swayed at the best of times, and
Michael's hypnotic gaze...

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 11:39 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrengthing


> Michael Young put a position at the time that swayed some of us.
> 
> Michael, could you summarise your opinion for those that
> missd it? Rather than me trying to put words into your mouth.

Given Michael doesn't post here often could you paraphrase? Or run
through your own objections? I presume it wasn't a Cult of Personality
thing that swayed you :-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

--=_alternative 007FFC68CC257108_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Over the years I've noticed excess strength used for two things
1) overstrengthing weapons to get the extra damage
2) carrying excess weight for short(ish) periods, especially bodies

The latter fits in with the Guild culture - go to extreme methods to get=20
everyone home, dead or alive.  I'm not keen on losing this benefit.

Regards,
Rosemary


Attention: This message and accompanying data are confidential and may cont=
ain information that is subject to legal privilege. If you are not the inte=
nded recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution =
or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have received this=
 email in error, please notify us immediately and erase all copies of the m=
essage and attachments. This email and any attachments may contain views or=
 opinions that are those of the sender and not necessarily the view or opin=
ions of ING (NZ) Limited and/or its associated entities. =

--=_alternative 007FFC68CC257108_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


<br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Over the years I've noticed excess s=
trength
used for two things</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">1) overstr=
engthing weapons to get the
extra damage</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">2) carrying exces=
s weight for short(ish)
periods, especially bodies</font><br><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif"=
>The latter fits in with the Guild culture
- go to extreme methods to get everyone home, dead or alive. &nbsp;I'm
not keen on losing this benefit.</font><br><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-=
serif">Regards,<br>Rosemary<br></font><font face=3D"sans-serif"><FONT Size=
=3D1><BR>Attention: This message and accompanying data are confidential and=
 may contain information that is subject to legal privilege. If you are not=
 the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, dist=
ribution or copying of this message or data is prohibited. If you have rece=
ived this email in error, please notify us immediately and erase all copies=
 of the message and attachments. This email and any attachments may contain=
 views or opinions that are those of the sender and not necessarily the vie=
w or opinions of ING (NZ) Limited and/or its=20
associated entities.<BR></FONT>
</font>

--=_alternative 007FFC68CC257108_=--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use
> > magic weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise
> > anyway. Massive strength should be useful. Why further
> > penalise the few people unlucky enough to have a magic weapon
> > on a medium+ game?
>
> On the same lines, why give the people with the funky magical weapons an
> even greater advantage over those who don't have them.  It causes a
> fumble rather than a break which should affect all weapons with magical
> ones only gaining the edge in the case of breaks.

This is not an argument.

NO ONE modifies the general balance of a game on the basis that a character
might get loot. The fact is, that's what they do. I am assuming that in the
heat of the moment, you have forgotten this, George.

Jim


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Over the years I've noticed excess strength used for two things
> 1) overstrengthing weapons to get the extra damage
> 2) carrying excess weight for short(ish) periods, especially bodies
> 
> The latter fits in with the Guild culture - go to extreme methods to
get
> everyone home, dead or alive.  I'm not keen on losing this benefit.

I am not sure you would, unless the entire party was a bunch of weeds.
Assuming the average is somewhere around 15 for strength , the max would
become 30 and 30 strength will let you carry a body for a distance. If
you have a brawny warrior in your party then you still have someone with
a 40-50 maximum strength. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>:

> To give a character example of massive PS. I have a character with 8 PS
> and 33lb mass. Last night she had a potion which would have given her 41
> PS, or with a little forethought, 51.
>
> Leverage, relative mass, etc make it pretty silly. Maxing her enhanced
> PS to 8*2 = 16 would be fantastic (as in fantasy) for her size, without
> her being able to carry multiple humans or out-pull a horse.
>
> This means the fighter in the party could get +24-ish, the mage-fighters
> could get +15-ish, and the wimps could get what they deserved.


This is a character at the extreme end of the game, in a situation that is also,
pretty much, at the extreme end of the game.

Any model will break down at some point.

If you think you can write rules well enough so that you will not generate an
exceptional state, you should not be on this list.

You should be working for NASA, planning the next manned mission to Mars.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> > > My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use magic 
> > > weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise anyway. 
> > > Massive strength should be useful. Why further penalise the few 
> > > people unlucky enough to have a magic weapon on a medium+ game?
> >
> > On the same lines, why give the people with the funky 
> magical weapons 
> > an even greater advantage over those who don't have them.  
> It causes a 
> > fumble rather than a break which should affect all weapons with 
> > magical ones only gaining the edge in the case of breaks.
> 
> This is not an argument.
> 
> NO ONE modifies the general balance of a game on the basis 
> that a character might get loot. The fact is, that's what 
> they do. I am assuming that in the heat of the moment, you 
> have forgotten this, George.

Jim, what are you going on about. 

We were discussing the impact of a new rule on an existing game
condition. Ie what impact overstrengthing rule changes have on the
current game balance based on the assumption that some characters will
have magical weapons. 

It is highly pertinant. 

Whether or not a character gains loot has nothing to do with it.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Jim said:

"You should be working for NASA, planning the next manned mission to Mars."

When was the last one?


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 12:29, Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz wrote:
> Jim said:
> 
> "You should be working for NASA, planning the next manned mission to Mars."
> 
> When was the last one?

Remember when they were faking moon landings on a sound stage? Guess
where the rockets were REALLY going. JFK is our ambasador to Mars.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > > > My feeling is that 90% of people with massive strength use magic
> > > > weapons, which people don't allow to break in practise anyway.
> > > > Massive strength should be useful. Why further penalise the few
> > > > people unlucky enough to have a magic weapon on a medium+ game?
> > >
> > > On the same lines, why give the people with the funky
> > magical weapons
> > > an even greater advantage over those who don't have them.
> > It causes a
> > > fumble rather than a break which should affect all weapons with
> > > magical ones only gaining the edge in the case of breaks.
> >
> > This is not an argument.
> >
> > NO ONE modifies the general balance of a game on the basis
> > that a character might get loot. The fact is, that's what
> > they do. I am assuming that in the heat of the moment, you
> > have forgotten this, George.
>
> Jim, what are you going on about.
>
> We were discussing the impact of a new rule on an existing game
> condition. Ie what impact overstrengthing rule changes have on the
> current game balance based on the assumption that some characters will
> have magical weapons.
>
> It is highly pertinant.
>
> Whether or not a character gains loot has nothing to do with it.

You said:

why give the people with the funky
> > magical weapons
> > > an even greater advantage over those who don't have them.

The point of having adventuring and getting a magical weapon is to GET the
advantage in the first place. You don't balance a game on the  basis of this
kind of behaviour.

We write rules because it creates a base, general environment that is good for
developing stories in. Why would you want to encourage players NOT to get a
magical weapon?

Jim


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Simpson@smtp.sig.net.nz, " Mark (NZ)" <SimpsoM2@anz.com>:

>
> Jim said:
>
> "You should be working for NASA, planning the next manned mission to Mars."
>
> When was the last one?

I don't know. Why? Did you miss your lift?

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz:

> I dont like spell effects that dont apply if the target _fails_ to resist,
> but switch on if they _do_ resist.
>
> Secondly, MAgical Fear does not feel like a 'necrosis' effect to me.
> Immediate infection of all existing wounds (take 1 FT per pulse per prior
> wound, minimum 0) due to necrosis of the flesh. On a resist you get a WP
> check per wound. Or numbing of the body, scores and skin dying etc.
>
> I realise the desire is for a non-damaging resist effect. Just not sure this
> is part of the spell.

Perhaps the spell could inflict some penalty to base chances for a few pulses,
whether or not it is resisted. It would have to be a reasonably small penalty,
and one that is easy to calculate.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> The point of having adventuring and getting a magical weapon 
> is to GET the advantage in the first place. You don't balance 
> a game on the  basis of this kind of behaviour.

Yep, I agree. However there is an advantage inherent in the gaining of
the weapon. Do we as part of a rule change want to add an additional
advantage. We are not encouraging them to not get them, nor would it
encourage people to not use them. The question is do we make it even
better to have them than it currently is. 

I think there are arguments both ways on that, both pertinant to the
discussion at hand. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Perhaps the spell could inflict some penalty to base chances 
> for a few pulses, whether or not it is resisted. It would 
> have to be a reasonably small penalty, and one that is easy 
> to calculate.

-10 is pretty easy to calculate. The number of pulses maybe 1/5 ranks?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_7755_1374260.1138837424464
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Using D&D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6 shots a
round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.
Dylan


On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Quoting Michael Woodhams <mdw@free.net.nz>:
>
> Trained archers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow ever=
y
> other
> second, and that's being very conservative. I don't know of a game that
> attempts  to reflect how lethal they are, in reality. Just about every
> game I
> have ever seen says that a bowman can have one or two discrete shots an
> action,
> and that it does somewhat less damage than a melee weapon.
>
> I suggest that there's a good reason for that.
>
> Jim.
>
> > On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 10:22, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > My only concern is I dislike releasing an arrow taking 10 seconds.
> > > Unless the bow is also slowed and that just gets silly.
> >
> > Think of it like this.
> > Prepare pulse: you pull the arrow from the quiver, notch it to the
> > string, draw the bow while pointing it in vaguely the right direction.
> >
> > Fire pulse: you fine-tune the pull on the bow, carefully align it with
> > the target, hold your breath, release your hold on the arrow, maintain
> > firm grip on the bow until the arrow is well on its way.
> >
> > So the "release your hold" bit only takes a fraction of the fire pulse.
> > The rest of the stuff is what takes the time, and justifies the fire
> > pulse being slowed. You can indeed do the "release" in negligible time =
-
> > if you do it at the end of the prepare pulse, you've done a snap-shoot.
> >
> > I'm not an archer, so I'm only guessing at what is involved here.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

------=_Part_7755_1374260.1138837424464
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>Using D&amp;D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6 =
shots a round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.=
</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><=
a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></=
b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.=
nz</a>
&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Quoting Michael Woodhams &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mdw@free.net.nz">mdw@free.net.nz</a>&gt;:<br><br>Trained arc=
hers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow every other
<br>second, and that's being very conservative. I don't know of a game that=
<br>attempts&nbsp;&nbsp;to reflect how lethal they are, in reality. Just ab=
out every game I<br>have ever seen says that a bowman can have one or two d=
iscrete shots an action,
<br>and that it does somewhat less damage than a melee weapon.<br><br>I sug=
gest that there's a good reason for that.<br><br>Jim.<br><br>&gt; On Thu, 2=
006-02-02 at 10:22, Mandos Mitchinson wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &=
gt; My only concern is I dislike releasing an arrow taking 10 seconds.
<br>&gt; &gt; Unless the bow is also slowed and that just gets silly.<br>&g=
t;<br>&gt; Think of it like this.<br>&gt; Prepare pulse: you pull the arrow=
 from the quiver, notch it to the<br>&gt; string, draw the bow while pointi=
ng it in vaguely the right direction.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Fire pulse: you fine-tune the pull on the bow, carefully a=
lign it with<br>&gt; the target, hold your breath, release your hold on the=
 arrow, maintain<br>&gt; firm grip on the bow until the arrow is well on it=
s way.
<br>&gt;<br>&gt; So the &quot;release your hold&quot; bit only takes a frac=
tion of the fire pulse.<br>&gt; The rest of the stuff is what takes the tim=
e, and justifies the fire<br>&gt; pulse being slowed. You can indeed do the=
 &quot;release&quot; in negligible time -
<br>&gt; if you do it at the end of the prepare pulse, you've done a snap-s=
hoot.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I'm not an archer, so I'm only guessing at what is in=
volved here.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">
dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br>&gt;<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify =
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_7755_1374260.1138837424464--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_27259_31101286.1138837431783
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/1/06, RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have to admit this is outside of my area of expertise by half the churc=
h
> doesn't seem to tolerate non humans.
>

Cite?

There are well respected Elves and Halflings at least in the Western
Churches.

Possibly I'm thinking of the wrong church though.
>

I think you might be.  Unless by "non humans" you mean Vampires, Wights,
Spectres...  :-)

Cheers,
Martin

------=_Part_27259_31101286.1138837431783
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/1/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">RPer 4eva</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">
<div>I have to admit this is outside of my area of expertise by half the ch=
urch doesn't seem to tolerate non humans.</div></blockquote><div><br>Cite?<=
br><br>There are well respected Elves and Halflings at least in the Western=
 Churches.
</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div>Po=
ssibly I'm thinking of the wrong church though.</div></blockquote><div><br>
I think you might be.&nbsp; Unless by &quot;non humans&quot; you mean Vampi=
res, Wights, Spectres...&nbsp; :-)<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br><br></di=
v></div><br>

------=_Part_27259_31101286.1138837431783--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Errol Cavit wrote:

>
>
> SNIP
> >
> > In regards to the penalties I have not really thought to hard
> > about the
> > numbers but my initial thought is to simply halve the BC and Def,
>
> Do you mean the Base Chance:
> "Base Chance The base percentage chance of hitting
> with a weapon, as listed in the Weapon Chart (§56.1)." (varies from 30 
> to 65)
>
> or Strike Chance
> "The standard percentage chance of
> hitting with a weapon; it is a combination of Base
> Chance, Manual Dexterity, Rank and magic.
> start of combat."
>
> or something else - (BC + MD + Rank) before magic?
>
> Against anyone with a reasonable defence, reducing SC has a large 
> affect on Modified SC (SC less defence). Most of the time, you will be 
> better off with a unpenalised Modified SC every other pulse than a 
> much worse Modified SC every pulse. Although your opponent may lose 
> the option of the "Evade (your attack) - Attack (you can't act) - 
> Evade (your attack).." pattern.
>
> SNIP
>
> Cheers
> Errol
>
Errols valid point still remains to be clarified.  Reducing strike 
chance by half will definitely have a major effect on current game 
balance as it will also lower chances of Endurance and Spec Grev blows.  
As defence already outstrips attack I would be hesistant to support this 
part of the proposal.

Scott Whitaker


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:

> > The point of having adventuring and getting a magical weapon
> > is to GET the advantage in the first place. You don't balance
> > a game on the  basis of this kind of behaviour.
>
> Yep, I agree. However there is an advantage inherent in the gaining of
> the weapon. Do we as part of a rule change want to add an additional
> advantage. We are not encouraging them to not get them, nor would it
> encourage people to not use them. The question is do we make it even
> better to have them than it currently is.
>
> I think there are arguments both ways on that, both pertinant to the
> discussion at hand.

You would have to be LOOKING for arguments.

In general, overstrengthing is going to add a couple of points to melee damage,
maybe. Mostly, it's only going to add one point. On occasion, players can raise
it by another 4 points.

The argument is that overstrengthing is going to lead to damage inflation. I
don't believe a word of it.

To be eligible to over-strength, you have to have sacrificed some of your
development in terms of PS. To increase it on an encounter basis, you have to
have either sacrificed some development to some ability or other, or you have
to spend money to get it.

The control already exists within the game.

If, on the other hand, you applied a penalty to overstrengthing, then the word
fighter would be someone who minces around the place in light armour and uses a
rapier and main gauche combination. Allowing overstrengthing has the effect of
promoting a wider range of fighters, because the utility swings more towards PS
than AG.

And, AG is by far the most valuable stat in DQ.

Finally, it's just extremely hard to believe that you can hit with a weapon so
hard that it breaks with the kind of frequency they talk about. I'm sure it
might happen, particularly with poorly made weapons. I find it hard to believe
that it would happen in anything other than an exceptional situation.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:

> Using D&D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6 shots a
> round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.
> Dylan
>
A weapon specialised fighter at the same level would be doing about twice as
much damage.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_27379_19056903.1138838249753
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Trained archers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow ever=
y
> other
> second, and that's being very conservative.


Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrows per minute for a
trained medieval archer.  I've never seen a rate of fire of around 30
mentioned. Do you have a source for this?

I don't know of a game that attempts  to reflect how lethal they are, in
> reality.


Agreed. Most games have emphasised melee combat over shooting -- probably t=
o
encourage close combat rather than long range sniping.

Cheers,
Martin

------=_Part_27379_19056903.1138838249753
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckl=
and.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@=
ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Trained ar=
chers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow every other<br>s=
econd, and that's being very conservative.
</blockquote><div><br>Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrow=
s per minute for a trained medieval archer.&nbsp; I've never seen a rate of=
 fire of around 30 mentioned. Do you have a source for this?<br></div><br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 2=
04, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I don't know of a game that attempts&nbsp;&nbsp;to reflect how lethal they =
are, in reality.</blockquote><div><br>Agreed. Most games have emphasised me=
lee combat over shooting -- probably to encourage close combat rather than =
long range sniping.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_27379_19056903.1138838249753--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

It seems to me that we should consider rule changes with respect to the 
ultimate goal of having fun when we roleplay.  I don't see all that many 
suggestions or discussions revolving around the concept of what engages 
people more and what result in a more exciting, more fun game.

Now it could be that a given rule is too awkward for a GM, or that it 
slows the game down at run-time.  In this case, removing the rule, or 
altering it will probably make the game run smoother, make life easier 
for the GM and therefore the game will be more fun.

If a rule is not going to make the game any more fun to play (or GM), 
then why bother imposing it?

E.g. If a character in a given situation can raise their PS to 50, who 
cares?  Would you, your fellow adventurers and the GM have *more* fun if 
there was a limit that restricted the PS bonus to 16 in that case?

 From a personal point of view, I quite enjoy games where people get to 
do amazing things.  Drinking a potion that gave outrageous PS for a 
limited time and allowed something fantastic to happen in the story is a 
*good* thing :)

I would like to see some discussion along the lines that Jono has 
suggested... how to run a fun DQ game.  How tension can be introduced 
into a game, how foreshadowing works, how to work within the episodic 
nature of a DQ game and still have larger story arcs that engage players 
etc.  Common flaws in DQ games, techniques that work, things that people 
have tried and don't work and so on.

Anything that improves the quality of GMing and playing (or at least 
exposes people to new ideas, even if they don't agree with them) seems 
like a better use of time that obsessing over the minutiae of rules that 
rarely impact on a game.

Ciao,
Andrew


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_27399_26188400.1138838382901
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
> * Slowness and Quickness - almost cancels out.


Easiest thing to do with this approach would be to have them actually and
explicity cancel out -- that is a Slowness cast on someone who is Quickened
returns them effectively to normal, but with both spells still in effect to
prevent re-Quickening. (And vice-versa)

Cheers,
Martin

------=_Part_27399_26188400.1138838382901
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<d=
iv><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">
* Slowness and Quickness - almost cancels out.</blockquote><div><br>Easiest=
 thing to do with this approach would be to have them actually and explicit=
y cancel out -- that is a Slowness cast on someone who is Quickened returns=
 them effectively to normal, but with both spells still in effect to preven=
t re-Quickening. (And vice-versa)
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_27399_26188400.1138838382901--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_7787_9378585.1138838502633
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

I'm not sure I agree with twice as much. Maybe a little more.
D8 base. +x strength if its a mighty composite longbow which has no maximum
strength bonus
same magical strength bonus for the bow and you can have magical arrows
which do more damage on top of that. Weapon specialisation and improved
specialisation both apply to both. In fact as far as I can tell you can do
more with a bow in potentia just because of the arrows also being magical
D8 +4 (SPECS) +str +5 bow +5 arrow.
2 handed sword: 2d6 +4 (specs) +str +5 magic.

Bows can be quite scarey in there capabilities.


On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
>
> > Using D&D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6 shots
> a
> > round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.
> > Dylan
> >
> A weapon specialised fighter at the same level would be doing about twice
> as
> much damage.
>
> Jim.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

------=_Part_7787_9378585.1138838502633
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>I'm not sure I agree with twice as much. Maybe a little more.</div>
<div>D8 base. +x strength if its a mighty composite longbow which has no ma=
ximum strength bonus</div>
<div>same magical strength bonus for the bow and you can have magical arrow=
s which do more damage on top of that. Weapon specialisation and improved s=
pecialisation both apply to both. In fact as far as I can tell you can do m=
ore with a bow in potentia just because of the arrows also being magical
</div>
<div>D8 +4 (SPECS) +str +5 bow +5 arrow.</div>
<div>2 handed sword: 2d6 +4 (specs) +str +5 magic.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Bows can be quite scarey in there capabilities.<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><=
a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></=
b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.=
nz</a>
&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt; U=
sing D&amp;D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6 shots =
a
<br>&gt; round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword=
.<br>&gt; Dylan<br>&gt;<br>A weapon specialised fighter at the same level w=
ould be doing about twice as<br>much damage.<br><br>Jim.<br><br><br>-- to u=
nsubscribe notify mailto:
<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<b=
r></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_7787_9378585.1138838502633--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Trained archers have a base rate of fire of something like one arrow every
> > other
> > second, and that's being very conservative.
>
>
> Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrows per minute for a
> trained medieval archer.  I've never seen a rate of fire of around 30
> mentioned. Do you have a source for this?

Philip Contamine: European Warfare in the Middle Ages

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_7791_10973004.1138838759228
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Whats the ruling on having a weapon spell of one sort on the bow and one
sort on the arrows in DQ?
Dylan


On 2/2/06, RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure I agree with twice as much. Maybe a little more.
> D8 base. +x strength if its a mighty composite longbow which has no
> maximum strength bonus
> same magical strength bonus for the bow and you can have magical arrows
> which do more damage on top of that. Weapon specialisation and improved
> specialisation both apply to both. In fact as far as I can tell you can d=
o
> more with a bow in potentia just because of the arrows also being magical
> D8 +4 (SPECS) +str +5 bow +5 arrow.
> 2 handed sword: 2d6 +4 (specs) +str +5 magic.
>
> Bows can be quite scarey in there capabilities.
>
>
> On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz > wrote:
> >
> > Quoting RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Using D&D and not going into epic levels you could obtain up to 6
> > shots a
> > > round and doing a fair whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.
> > > Dylan
> > >
> > A weapon specialised fighter at the same level would be doing about
> > twice as
> > much damage.
> >
> > Jim.
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto: dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> >
>
>

------=_Part_7791_10973004.1138838759228
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>Whats the ruling on having a weapon spell of one sort on the bow and o=
ne sort on the arrows in DQ?</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">R=
Per 4eva</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div>I'm not sure I agree with twice as much. Maybe a little more.</div>
<div>D8 base. +x strength if its a mighty composite longbow which has no ma=
ximum strength bonus</div>
<div>same magical strength bonus for the bow and you can have magical arrow=
s which do more damage on top of that. Weapon specialisation and improved s=
pecialisation both apply to both. In fact as far as I can tell you can do m=
ore with a bow in potentia just because of the arrows also being magical=20
</div>
<div>D8 +4 (SPECS) +str +5 bow +5 arrow.</div>
<div>2 handed sword: 2d6 +4 (specs) +str +5 magic.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Bows can be quite scarey in there capabilities.<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"q"><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"g=
mail_sendername"><a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)=
" href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz" target=3D"_blank">raro002@ec.au=
ckland.ac.nz
</a></b> &lt;<a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz" target=3D"_blank">raro002@ec.auckla=
nd.ac.nz</a> &gt; wrote:</span> </span>
<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_10928107d3d9c152_2">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Quoting RPer 4eva &lt;<a onclick=
=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:msnoverflo=
w@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">
msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt; Using D&amp;D and not going into=
 epic levels you could obtain up to 6 shots a <br>&gt; round and doing a fa=
ir whack of damage. Equivalent to a long sword.<br>&gt; Dylan<br>&gt;<br>
A weapon specialised fighter at the same level would be doing about twice a=
s<br>much damage.<br><br>Jim.<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto: <=
a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:d=
q-request@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">
dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></span></div></div><br></blo=
ckquote></div><br>

------=_Part_7791_10973004.1138838759228--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C627FC.EF5CDC40
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

RE: [dq] {Rulebook} Languages - Eloran and KipchakAll good with me.

Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a Vote?

MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work.
It should be none or Adepts when possessed.

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Errol Cavit=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM
  Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table


  I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there is no reason =
not to have everything transparent.=20

   =
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics=20

  I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to reflect the =
December approval vote.

  Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive =
numbers in the 'TMR Mod' column of the table, and that this is just =
improving readability?
  I'll also put a "*" after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.

  Cheers
  Errol 
------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C627FC.EF5CDC40
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [dq] {Rulebook} Languages - Eloran and =
Kipchak</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All good with me.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in =
the table=20
with out a Vote?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like =
inteligance=20
dosn't work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It should be none or Adepts when=20
possessed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Decavit@tollnz.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">Errol Cavit</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 02, =
2006 11:17=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [dq] {Rulebook} Golem=20
Table</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I guess this is =
mainly for Helen=20
  and Stephen, but there is no reason not to have everything=20
  transparent.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Stati=
stics"><FONT=20
  size=3D+0><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D944265221-01022006>&nbsp;</SPAN>http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqw=
iki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics</FONT></FONT></FONT></A><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN class=3D944265221-01022006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to =
reflect the=20
  December approval vote.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D944265221-01022006>Can=20
  you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive =
numbers in=20
  the 'TMR Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving=20
  readability?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006>I'll&nbsp;also put a "*" after the "Rk" at =
the bottom=20
  of each sub-table.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D944265221-01022006>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D944265221-01022006>Errol&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0099_01C627FC.EF5CDC40--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_27467_32213367.1138839158173
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:
>
> > Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrows per minute for a
> > trained medieval archer.  I've never seen a rate of fire of around 30
> > mentioned. Do you have a source for this?
>
> Philip Contamine: European Warfare in the Middle Ages


Thanks Jim.  Seems a well repected author/book from the reviews on-line --
wonder where his figures came from... just insofar as they are quite
different from the norm... but then it is always possible that 10-12 is one
of those oft-repeated numbers with little or no basis.  Quite interesting.

Cheers,
Martin

------=_Part_27467_32213367.1138839158173
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckl=
and.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@=
ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Quoting Ma=
rtin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson=
@gmail.com
</a>&gt;:<br><br>&gt; Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrow=
s per minute for a<br>&gt; trained medieval archer.&nbsp;&nbsp;I've never s=
een a rate of fire of around 30<br>&gt; mentioned. Do you have a source for=
 this?
<br><br>Philip Contamine: European Warfare in the Middle Ages</blockquote><=
div><br>Thanks Jim.&nbsp; Seems a well repected author/book from the review=
s on-line -- wonder where his figures came from... just insofar as they are=
 quite different from the norm... but then it is always possible that 10-12=
 is one of those oft-repeated numbers with little or no basis.&nbsp; Quite =
interesting.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br><br></div><br></div><br>

------=_Part_27467_32213367.1138839158173--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_7799_11691283.1138839190299
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

Is it really animal intelligence? I mean it can have all kinds of skills.
That seems to me to imply a limited sentience. No amount of training even i=
n
DQ gives animals access to the skills a golem can have.
Dylan


On 2/2/06, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
>
> All good with me.
>
> Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a Vote?
>
> MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work.
> It should be none or Adepts when possessed.
>
> Helen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM
> *Subject:* [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
>
>
> I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there is no reason not
> to have everything transparent.
>
>  http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics<h=
ttp://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics>
>
>
> I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to reflect the
> December approval vote.
>
> Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive
> numbers in the 'TMR Mod' column of the table, and that this is just
> improving readability?
> I'll also put a "*" after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.
>
> Cheers
> Errol
>
>

------=_Part_7799_11691283.1138839190299
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>Is it really animal intelligence? I mean it can have all kinds of skil=
ls. That seems to me to imply a limited sentience. No amount of training ev=
en in DQ gives animals access to the skills a golem can have.</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">H=
elen Saggers</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">helen@owbn.net.nz=
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">All good with me.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in =
the table with out a Vote?</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">MA 0 on a construct with an Animal lik=
e inteligance dosn't work.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">It should be none or Adepts when posse=
ssed.</font></div><span class=3D"sg">
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Helen</font></div></span>
<div><span class=3D"e" id=3D"q_109281729490cef7_2">
<blockquote dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MAR=
GIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a title=
=3D"ecavit@tollnz.co.nz" onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,=
this)" href=3D"mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">Errol Cavit</a=
> </div>

<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title=3D"dq@dq.sf.org.nz" onc=
lick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.=
sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a> </div>
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 02, 2006 11=
:17 AM</div>
<div style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table=
</div>
<div><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font face=3D"Arial"><font size=3D"2"><span><f=
ont color=3D"#0000ff">I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but the=
re is no reason not to have everything transparent.&nbsp;</font></span></fo=
nt></font>
</font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font face=3D"Arial"><font size=3D"2"><span></=
span></font></font></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><a onclick=3D"return top.js.OpenExtLink(window=
,event,this)" href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems=
#Golem_Statistics" target=3D"_blank"><font size=3D"+0"><font size=3D"2"><fo=
nt face=3D"Arial">
<span>&nbsp;</span>http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Go=
lem_Statistics</font></font></font></a><span><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2=
">&nbsp;</font></span></font></div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><span></span></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color=3D"#0000ff"><span><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">I've upd=
ated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to reflect the December appr=
oval vote.</font></span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span></span></font>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>Can you confir=
m that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive numbers in the 'TM=
R Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving readability?</s=
pan>
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>I'll&nbsp;also=
 put a &quot;*&quot; after the &quot;Rk&quot; at the bottom of each sub-tab=
le.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span></span></font>=
&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>Cheers</span><=
/font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"><span>Errol&nbsp;</s=
pan></font></div></blockquote></span></div></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_7799_11691283.1138839190299--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:

> On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
> >
> > Quoting Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Most of the material I've seen has quoted 10-12 arrows per minute for a
> > > trained medieval archer.  I've never seen a rate of fire of around 30
> > > mentioned. Do you have a source for this?
> >
> > Philip Contamine: European Warfare in the Middle Ages
>
>
> Thanks Jim.  Seems a well repected author/book from the reviews on-line --
> wonder where his figures came from... just insofar as they are quite
> different from the norm... but then it is always possible that 10-12 is one
> of those oft-repeated numbers with little or no basis.  Quite interesting.

I read it some time ago, and I may have misremembered or misread it, but I have
this recollection of him talking about how they set up arrows behind them which
they walked backwards to. I don't know where dozen a minute comes from. It may
be that Contamine is talking about an exceptional circumstance. Who are you
reading?

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

All good points Andrew, and I totally agree.

Sadly I do not see people willing to talking about how to run better or more
fun games.

I think the 'DQ list' culture would only change with a real effort was put
in on part of users, which I do not think they are willing to do. People are
happy to talk about rules and let it go around in circles.

Sadly very few people (IMO) are willing to talk about their ideas on how to
improve the running of the games, or GMing skills needed to run a fun game.

Jono


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Andrew Luxton-Reilly
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 12:58 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List
>
>
> It seems to me that we should consider rule changes with respect to the
> ultimate goal of having fun when we roleplay.  I don't see all that many
> suggestions or discussions revolving around the concept of what engages
> people more and what result in a more exciting, more fun game.
>
> Now it could be that a given rule is too awkward for a GM, or that it
> slows the game down at run-time.  In this case, removing the rule, or
> altering it will probably make the game run smoother, make life easier
> for the GM and therefore the game will be more fun.
>
> If a rule is not going to make the game any more fun to play (or GM),
> then why bother imposing it?
>
> E.g. If a character in a given situation can raise their PS to 50, who
> cares?  Would you, your fellow adventurers and the GM have *more* fun if
> there was a limit that restricted the PS bonus to 16 in that case?
>
>  From a personal point of view, I quite enjoy games where people get to
> do amazing things.  Drinking a potion that gave outrageous PS for a
> limited time and allowed something fantastic to happen in the story is a
> *good* thing :)
>
> I would like to see some discussion along the lines that Jono has
> suggested... how to run a fun DQ game.  How tension can be introduced
> into a game, how foreshadowing works, how to work within the episodic
> nature of a DQ game and still have larger story arcs that engage players
> etc.  Common flaws in DQ games, techniques that work, things that people
> have tried and don't work and so on.
>
> Anything that improves the quality of GMing and playing (or at least
> exposes people to new ideas, even if they don't agree with them) seems
> like a better use of time that obsessing over the minutiae of rules that
> rarely impact on a game.
>
> Ciao,
> Andrew
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C627FD.08553990
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi all,


I have found over the last five weeks that running combats at speed and
being hard on players to quickly make up there minds or be forced to take
pass actions, has really helped move combats along. It has ment that the
story moves more quickly, that the players do not care as much now about
pass actions as they will have another chance at an action shortly.

With my current group it takes around 90 to 120 sec to resolve a pulse of
combat with 7 characters, and only one caster.
What are other peoples views? on how hard a GM should be on the players and
if they have noticed that speed is important.

Jono



------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C627FD.08553990
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hi=20
all,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I have=20
found over the last five weeks that running combats at speed and being =
hard on=20
players to quickly make up there minds or be forced to take pass =
actions, has=20
really helped move combats along. It has ment that the story moves more =
quickly,=20
that the players do not care as much now about pass actions as they will =
have=20
another chance at an action shortly.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>With=20
my current group it takes around 90 to 120 sec to resolve a pulse of =
combat with=20
7 characters, and only one caster.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>What=20
are other peoples views? on how hard a GM should be on the&nbsp;players =
and if=20
they have noticed that speed is important.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jono</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D739192700-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C627FD.08553990--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Given that people can learn things we should put more effort into learning
GMing tips and tricks from others.
Do other GMs have this view? Is it worth people putting effort into?

Jonathan


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Fine by me Errol.

And I'm in favour of making them MA none.  As the person who made the mistake of putting 0 instead
of none, I can confirm that it was a mistake.  They are non-sentient entities.  As such they
should have MA none not 0.

Cheers, Stephen.

Helen Saggers said:
>
> Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a Vote?
>
> MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work.
> It should be none or Adepts when possessed.
>
> Helen
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Errol Cavit
>   To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM
>   Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
>
>
>   I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there is no reason not to have everything
> transparent.
>
>    http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics
>
>   I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to reflect the December approval vote.
>
>   Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of the positive numbers in the 'TMR
> Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving readability? I'll also put a "*"
> after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.
>
>   Cheers
>   Errol


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_27775_15879189.1138841262707
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> I read it some time ago, and I may have misremembered or misread it, but =
I
> have
> this recollection of him talking about how they set up arrows behind them
> which
> they walked backwards to.


Setting up the arrows point first in the ground seems to be a common
description. One diagram I recall showed the archer bending forward from th=
e
waist to nock the arrow (still planted), and then standing up and drawing
back the shaft as one action before releasing as soon as the arrow was at
full draw. Accuracy wouldn't be great I imagine, but if you're shooting at =
a
great mass of troops that wouldn't matter.

I don't know where dozen a minute comes from. It may
> be that Contamine is talking about an exceptional circumstance.


Always possible it was a record, or a best speed.

Who are you reading?


Pratchett.  :-)  Nah, not sure where I first saw the 10-12 figure (though i=
t
may have been Oman's "Art of War in the Middle Ages" -- considered rather
outdated these days). **Doing a bit of tracing back from online quotes of
rate of fire seems to sometimes point to Bradbury's "The Medieval Archer"..=
.
so that could be another source.

No idea though how any of them got their figure, 'cos I can't see that
anyone was timing with a stopwatch at Crecy or Poictiers. :-)

Regards,
Martin

------=_Part_27775_15879189.1138841262707
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"><a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckl=
and.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a></b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@=
ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class=
=3D"gmail_quote">
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I read it =
some time ago, and I may have misremembered or misread it, but I have<br>th=
is recollection of him talking about how they set up arrows behind them whi=
ch
<br>they walked backwards to.</blockquote><div><br>Setting up the arrows po=
int first in the ground seems to be a common description. One diagram I rec=
all showed the archer bending forward from the waist to nock the arrow (sti=
ll planted), and then standing up and drawing back the shaft as one action =
before releasing as soon as the arrow was at full draw. Accuracy wouldn't b=
e great I imagine, but if you're shooting at a great mass of troops that wo=
uldn't matter.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> I =
don't know where dozen a minute comes from. It may<br>be that Contamine is =
talking about an exceptional circumstance.
</blockquote><div><br>Always possible it was a record, or a best speed. <br=
></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px soli=
d rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Who a=
re you reading?
</blockquote><div><br><span>Pratchett.&nbsp; :-)&nbsp; Nah, not sure where =
I first saw the 10-12 figure (though it may have been Oman's &quot;</span><=
span>Art of War in the Middle Ages&quot; -- considered rather outdated thes=
e days).&nbsp;
</span><b class=3D"sans"></b><span>Doing a bit of tracing back from online =
quotes of rate of fire seems to sometimes point to Bradbury's &quot;The Med=
ieval Archer&quot;... so that could be another source.<br><br>No idea thoug=
h how any of them got their figure, 'cos=20
</span>I can't see that anyone was timing with a stopwatch at Crecy or Poic=
tiers. :-)<br><br>Regards,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_27775_15879189.1138841262707--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Hi all,

Would it be worth creating a new DQ emailing list, which people could join
if they wished?

The aim of the list is more along the lines of:
'Aiming at improving and increasing the skills of GMs to empower them to run
better and fun games'.

Jonathan


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

90% of the list conversations you have started since returning to DQ have been about rule changes.

If you think they are unimportant, then don't start them.  Don't contribute to them.  Vote with
your feet (or emails in this case).

Start more email topics like your email just now about running combats.

The list is supposed to be for discussions about rules, campaign, and GMing in DQ.
People contribute as they have time to the topics that interest or annoy them enough.  If there
are interesting conversations about GMing style and techniques then I'm sure some people will get
involved in them and more will lurk quietly reading them with interest and maybe learn or consider
something new.

Cheers, Stephen.

Jonathan Bean - TME said:
> All good points Andrew, and I totally agree.
>
> Sadly I do not see people willing to talking about how to run better or more fun games.
>
> I think the 'DQ list' culture would only change with a real effort was put in on part of users,
> which I do not think they are willing to do. People are happy to talk about rules and let it go
> around in circles.
>
> Sadly very few people (IMO) are willing to talk about their ideas on how to improve the running
> of the games, or GMing skills needed to run a fun game.
>
> Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I also agree with Andew on both points. DQ is a fantasy game. Being so,
things should be well, fantastical. If your 8 PS weed can get 40 with an
item and a big spell, well, hooray. Throw some carts arround and break bones
when you bitch-slap the foe.
One of the funnier moments was in a Dan game when the gobbo's drank their
waters of strength.

On the other I've been wondering about two things:

1) Engagement style encounters: Ideally IMNSHO an encounter should start st
extreme ranges of when you see the potential enemy. The PCs then get lots of
room to manouver, wonder if the tiny dots are enemies, friends and whether a
pre-emptive assault will change matters. It gives them an oppotunity to try
and arrange things so that combat is uneeded.
My only wondering is do Players like this or would they rather just get to
blows at 'knife range' more quickly?

2)Law of Melodrama. Borrowed from TORG's Nile Empire realm. Everyone is
either Good or Evil and there is no middle ground. Most people you meet in
civilised areas are 'Good' except for the genuine rotters. Good people may
still be mercanaries, assassians, pirates and so forth but deep down
(sometimes really deep) there is a heart of gold. Evils are also deep down
complete scum. Khassire is the world I run where this specifically applies.
To those who have adventured there, what did you think?

William
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.14.23/243 - Release Date: 27/01/2006


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> 
>I have 
>found over the last five weeks that running combats at speed and being hard on 
>players to quickly make up there minds or be forced to take pass actions, has 
>really helped move combats along. It has ment that the story moves more quickly, 
>that the players do not care as much now about pass actions as they will have 
>another chance at an action shortly.
> 
>With my current group it takes around 90 to 120 sec to resolve a pulse of combat 
> with 7 characters, and only one caster.
>What are other peoples views? on how hard a GM should be on the players and if 
>they have noticed that speed is important.

Kudos, guys. That's about 10x faster than most DQ combats I've run or participated 
in, so you are either engaging some tough fights or getting a lot of extra 
roleplaying time.  Provided you're not out of breath  :)

However, this approach would have to very responsive to the level and capability of 
the players (and the poor GM) to prevent people making humiliating mistakes, getting 
left behind, or feeling unduly under pressure.

The "hard-core" player may enjoy this style, but I think that newbies, the disnumeric 
among us, and terminally ill-prepared would suffer.  While being ill-prepared is 
definitely nothing to admire, this is rather punative method of addressing it and it 
would alienate many of the others.  And if there's no fun, there's no point.

It's absolutely your and any other GM's prerogative to run combats hard and fast, but 
it's not going to suit everybody, especially nice-guy GM's like yours truly. And if 
you advertised your games as 'Medium-Fast' that might be a consideration.


...but DQ combats do run too long.  Any other "soft-sore" options out there?



ben


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> 90% of the list conversations you have started since returning to
> DQ have been about rule changes.

Yes 90% is fair number. I do feel that it leaves 10% on GM stuff and I see
few others willing to try to move the topics or willing to move the topics
towards better GMing (what ever that is).

> If you think they are unimportant, then don't start them.  Don't
> contribute to them.  Vote with your feet (or emails in this case).

You are missing the point Stephen, I think they are important but I think
they are often miss focused, on rules and number rather than the effects in
the game on fun and usability at run time.

> Start more email topics like your email just now about running combats.
Yes I will try too.

> The list is supposed to be for discussions about rules, campaign, and
GMing in DQ.
The list at the moment is almost totally dominated by rules topics. This is
not to say they are unimportant, its just maybe they are drowning out other
topics.

A new email list without rules maybe the correct way to move forward?

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> On the other I've been wondering about two things:
>
> 1) Engagement style encounters: Ideally IMNSHO an encounter
> should start st
> extreme ranges of when you see the potential enemy. The PCs then
> get lots of
> room to manouver, wonder if the tiny dots are enemies, friends
> and whether a
> pre-emptive assault will change matters. It gives them an
> oppotunity to try
> and arrange things so that combat is uneeded.
> My only wondering is do Players like this or would they rather just get to
> blows at 'knife range' more quickly?

Interesting, when I can I do the other and aim at 'knife range' as this
often means that the party dont just melt the oppentents at range with large
spells. I like the nuke mages to get blood and bones over their robes if are
dominating a game. I also find that 'knife point' means that teh poor
fighters with 2 or 3 TMR can do stuff. In short its more fun for people I
think. But at the same time, lots of places are automatical short or close
range - like cities and dungeons, buildings, tunnels, ships  so I have been
able to see the effect of 'knife point' more clearly.

> 2)Law of Melodrama. Borrowed from TORG's Nile Empire realm. Everyone is
> either Good or Evil and there is no middle ground. Most people you meet in
> civilised areas are 'Good' except for the genuine rotters. Good people may
> still be mercanaries, assassians, pirates and so forth but deep down
> (sometimes really deep) there is a heart of gold. Evils are also deep down
> complete scum. Khassire is the world I run where this
> specifically applies.
> To those who have adventured there, what did you think?

I haven't played any TORG to speak of sorry.

Jono


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62795.7BB15A4E
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper trail?

Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you indicate a correct
version?


Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook on the basis of
strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had evidence in History
of which was correct)


Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out anywhere?

Thanks
Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Stephen Martin
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
> 
> 
> Fine by me Errol.
> 
> And I'm in favour of making them MA none.  As the person who 
> made the mistake of putting 0 instead
> of none, I can confirm that it was a mistake.  They are 
> non-sentient entities.  As such they
> should have MA none not 0.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> Helen Saggers said:
> >
> > Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a Vote?
> >
> > MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work.
> > It should be none or Adepts when possessed.
> >
> > Helen
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: Errol Cavit
> >   To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM
> >   Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
> >
> >
> >   I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there 
> is no reason not to have everything
> > transparent.
> >
> >    
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics
> >
> >   I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to 
> reflect the December approval vote.
> >
> >   Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of 
> the positive numbers in the 'TMR
> > Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving 
> readability? I'll also put a "*"
> > after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.
> >
> >   Cheers
> >   Errol
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62795.7BB15A4E
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To save future arguments, are you able to give a =
paper trail?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you =
indicate a correct version?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the =
Rulebook on the basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ =
vs 40+ had evidence in History of which was correct)</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt =
out anywhere?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Stephen Martin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Fine by me Errol.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; And I'm in favour of making them MA none.&nbsp; =
As the person who </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; made the mistake of putting 0 instead</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; of none, I can confirm that it was a =
mistake.&nbsp; They are </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; non-sentient entities.&nbsp; As such =
they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should have MA none not 0.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Helen Saggers said:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the =
table with out a Vote?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like =
inteligance dosn't work.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; It should be none or Adepts when =
possessed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Helen</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original Message =
-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: Errol Cavit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Thursday, February 02, =
2006 11:17 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem =
Table</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess this is mainly for =
Helen and Stephen, but there </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is no reason not to have everything</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; transparent.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Stat=
istics" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#=
Golem_Statistics</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've updated the note on the =
Wiki version of the Table to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; reflect the December approval vote.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can you confirm that I'm =
correct to add a '+' in front of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the positive numbers in the 'TMR</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Mod' column of the table, and that this is =
just improving </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; readability? I'll also put a =
&quot;*&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; after the &quot;Rk&quot; at the bottom of =
each sub-table.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Errol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</=
A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C62795.7BB15A4E--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> All good points Andrew, and I totally agree.
> 
> Sadly I do not see people willing to talking about how to run 
> better or more fun games.
> 
> I think the 'DQ list' culture would only change with a real 
> effort was put in on part of users, which I do not think they 
> are willing to do. People are happy to talk about rules and 
> let it go around in circles.
> 
> Sadly very few people (IMO) are willing to talk about their 
> ideas on how to improve the running of the games, or GMing 
> skills needed to run a fun game.

I think it is a great idea. However I think that this particular list
was set up to discuss the rules and changes that we plan. That said I
don't see why another list cannot be set up for GM hints tips and
tricks.

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I think it goes without saying that everyone has their own style of 
GMing and playing.  Nobody can require you to play or GM in a given 
style.  However, it is good to hear what works for others and consider 
if it might work in your own games.

I have not actually played in any of Jono's games for many years, so I 
don't know how well the fast combat works.  However, Jono (and some of 
his players) report that it works well.

Specifically, Jono requires players to make up their minds quickly, 
otherwise their characters take a pass action.  If a player does not 
know their base chance then they automatically fail.  If a player is 
unprepared then they lose.

This has a number of reported effects:
1.  Players show up prepared.  This is beneficial for everyone since the 
rest of the entire group does not have to sit around and wait for one 
person to muck around for 5 mins working out a base chance in the middle 
of combat.
2.  The game moves rapidly.  This means that a lot of stuff happens in 
an evening.  This may not be to everyone's tastes, but it appears to 
work for the players in the party.
3.  The level of tension is higher and players seem to be more engaged 
with the game.  Players are concentrating on the combat and it appears 
to be exciting for them.  If you want to engender a sense of excitement 
in the game, then this could be one way to achieve it.

I have not heard of any downsides.  Perhaps Jono could comment in more 
detail on any advantages, disadvantages or problems for the GM or 
players that this has caused.  Players involved in the game may want to 
comment on how the fast combat style has impacted on them.

Ciao,
Andrew


Cosmo wrote:
> It's absolutely your and any other GM's prerogative to run combats hard and fast, but 
> it's not going to suit everybody, especially nice-guy GM's like yours truly. And if 
> you advertised your games as 'Medium-Fast' that might be a consideration.

-- 
-------------------------------
Andrew Luxton-Reilly
Department of Computer Science
University of Auckland
Email: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Phone: +649-373-7599 x 85654


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Yes, it was good.

Dylan playing his Namer was rocking back and forth on his seat with his
knees hunched up after the first night say is it normally like this. It was
faster and seemed successful in creating tention.

Jono


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Cosmo
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 1:56 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Fast combats
>
>
>
> > 
> >I have
> >found over the last five weeks that running combats at speed and
> being hard on
> >players to quickly make up there minds or be forced to take pass
> actions, has
> >really helped move combats along. It has ment that the story
> moves more quickly,
> >that the players do not care as much now about pass actions as
> they will have
> >another chance at an action shortly.
> > 
> >With my current group it takes around 90 to 120 sec to resolve a
> pulse of combat
> > with 7 characters, and only one caster.
> >What are other peoples views? on how hard a GM should be on the 
> players and if
> >they have noticed that speed is important.
>
> Kudos, guys. That's about 10x faster than most DQ combats I've
> run or participated
> in, so you are either engaging some tough fights or getting a lot
> of extra
> roleplaying time.  Provided you're not out of breath  :)
>
> However, this approach would have to very responsive to the level
> and capability of
> the players (and the poor GM) to prevent people making
> humiliating mistakes, getting
> left behind, or feeling unduly under pressure.
>
> The "hard-core" player may enjoy this style, but I think that
> newbies, the disnumeric
> among us, and terminally ill-prepared would suffer.  While being
> ill-prepared is
> definitely nothing to admire, this is rather punative method of
> addressing it and it
> would alienate many of the others.  And if there's no fun,
> there's no point.
>
> It's absolutely your and any other GM's prerogative to run
> combats hard and fast, but
> it's not going to suit everybody, especially nice-guy GM's like
> yours truly. And if
> you advertised your games as 'Medium-Fast' that might be a consideration.
>
>
> ...but DQ combats do run too long.  Any other "soft-sore" options
> out there?
>
>
>
> ben
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Fair enough.  It may of course take some time to set up a new list.  In 
the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss GM hints, tips etc. 
could preface the message subject with [DQ-GM].  That way, people that 
are not interested can set up a filter to trash the non-rules stuff. 
People that only want the discussion about GMing can filter all the non 
[DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)

In any case, I would still prefer to see rules discussions tempered with 
consideration for "How does this change make the game more fun for GMs 
and players alike".

Ciao,
Andrew

Mandos Mitchinson wrote:
> I think it is a great idea. However I think that this particular list
> was set up to discuss the rules and changes that we plan. That said I
> don't see why another list cannot be set up for GM hints tips and
> tricks.

-- 
-------------------------------
Andrew Luxton-Reilly
Department of Computer Science
University of Auckland
Email: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Phone: +649-373-7599 x 85654


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> I also agree with Andew on both points. DQ is a fantasy game. 
> Being so, things should be well, fantastical. If your 8 PS 
> weed can get 40 with an item and a big spell, well, hooray. 
> Throw some carts arround and break bones when you bitch-slap 
> the foe. One of the funnier moments was in a Dan game when 
> the gobbo's drank their waters of strength.

I prefer the gritty more down and dirty less heroic style of game
myself. Powerful things are scary, characters make do with what they
have and struggle through to success. I find my suspension of disbelief
is to hard to maintain when things get big "heroic" and to my mind
silly. 

> 1) Engagement style encounters: Ideally IMNSHO an encounter 
> should start st extreme ranges of when you see the potential 
> enemy. The PCs then get lots of room to manouver, wonder if 
> the tiny dots are enemies, friends and whether a pre-emptive 
> assault will change matters. It gives them an oppotunity to 
> try and arrange things so that combat is uneeded. My only 
> wondering is do Players like this or would they rather just 
> get to blows at 'knife range' more quickly?

As both a GM and a player I quite like enclosed fights with odd terrain.
Small camps, areas that need to be defended, inns, sewers etc. Things
that make the players think about where they can move to and how best to
engage are good. 

I think despite the feeling that talking is the best option there are a
lot of players who just want to get to DQ after a hard day at work and
beat the snot out of something. ~60% of Ep ends up spent on things to do
in combat so it should be an important part of the game. 


> 2)Law of Melodrama. Borrowed from TORG's Nile Empire realm. 
> Everyone is either Good or Evil and there is no middle 
> ground. Most people you meet in civilised areas are 'Good' 
> except for the genuine rotters. Good people may still be 
> mercanaries, assassians, pirates and so forth but deep down 
> (sometimes really deep) there is a heart of gold. Evils are 
> also deep down complete scum. Khassire is the world I run 
> where this specifically applies. To those who have adventured 
> there, what did you think?

Not a huge fan. I like people to be shades of Grey, their own
motivations, the abilty to sink lower into Evil or rise up and redeem
themselves is important. I like games to involve moral quandries. Do we
support this guy who is killing thousands of people because it will save
millions in the long run? Do we support the person who used the souls of
an evil guys relatives to imprison the really evil guy? Can we trust the
guy that gives to the poor and heals the sick, when he might be using it
to trick us into helping him? etc. 

When playing on your world I never really noticed the black/white
because I always assume grey :-) 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> In any case, I would still prefer to see rules discussions 
> tempered with consideration for "How does this change make the game
more 
> fun for GMs and players alike".

The Fun aspect was the driver behind the slowness discussion. Not taking
an action for a pulse is dull and encourages people to  stop focussing
on what is going on. Hence trying to change the rules to ensure an
action every pulse. The advantages for a GM in terms are a secondary
consideration. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.0BEC20F6
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Without being able to quote sources, I've always had three figures in my
head, one which seemed to contradict the others.
=20
An OK Long bow archer could fire 6+ arrows a minute
A well-trained and physically-fit specialist could fire 10-12 arrows a
minute.
=20
And then, sourced from one of the Hundred Years battle - a good archer
could have three arrows in the air at once. I'm come across this several
times, implying a common source from a description of the time? Anyway,
this always seemed odd - maybe because I'm not thinking of the "arch" in
archery.
=20
Andrew
=20

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Martin Dickson
	Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 1:48 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Archers (was [dq] Quickness and Slowness.)
=09
=09
	On 2/2/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz>
wrote:=20
=09

		I read it some time ago, and I may have misremembered or
misread it, but I have
		this recollection of him talking about how they set up
arrows behind them which=20
		they walked backwards to.


	Setting up the arrows point first in the ground seems to be a
common description. One diagram I recall showed the archer bending
forward from the waist to nock the arrow (still planted), and then
standing up and drawing back the shaft as one action before releasing as
soon as the arrow was at full draw. Accuracy wouldn't be great I
imagine, but if you're shooting at a great mass of troops that wouldn't
matter.=20
=09


		I don't know where dozen a minute comes from. It may
		be that Contamine is talking about an exceptional
circumstance.=20


	Always possible it was a record, or a best speed.=20
=09


		Who are you reading?=20


	Pratchett.  :-)  Nah, not sure where I first saw the 10-12
figure (though it may have been Oman's "Art of War in the Middle Ages"
-- considered rather outdated these days).  Doing a bit of tracing back
from online quotes of rate of fire seems to sometimes point to
Bradbury's "The Medieval Archer"... so that could be another source.
=09
	No idea though how any of them got their figure, 'cos I can't
see that anyone was timing with a stopwatch at Crecy or Poictiers. :-)
=09
	Regards,
	Martin
=09



------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.0BEC20F6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Without being able to quote sources, I've always had three =
figures in my=20
head, one which seemed to contradict the others.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>An OK=20
Long bow archer could fire 6+ arrows a minute</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>A=20
well-trained and physically-fit specialist could fire 10-12 arrows a=20
minute.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>And=20
then, sourced from one of the Hundred Years battle - a good archer could =
have=20
three arrows in the air at once. I'm come across this several times, =
implying a=20
common source from a description of the time? Anyway, this always seemed =
odd -=20
maybe because I'm not thinking of the "arch" in =
archery.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D372493201-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Martin Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 2 February 2006 1:48=20
  p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Archers =
(was=20
  [dq] Quickness and Slowness.)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 2/2/06, <B=20
  class=3Dgmail_sendername><A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A></=
B>=20
  &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</A>&g=
t;=20
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I=20
    read it some time ago, and I may have misremembered or misread it, =
but I=20
    have<BR>this recollection of him talking about how they set up =
arrows behind=20
    them which <BR>they walked backwards to.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Setting up the arrows point first in the ground seems to be a =
common=20
  description. One diagram I recall showed the archer bending forward =
from the=20
  waist to nock the arrow (still planted), and then standing up and =
drawing back=20
  the shaft as one action before releasing as soon as the arrow was at =
full=20
  draw. Accuracy wouldn't be great I imagine, but if you're shooting at =
a great=20
  mass of troops that wouldn't matter. <BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I=20
    don't know where dozen a minute comes from. It may<BR>be that =
Contamine is=20
    talking about an exceptional circumstance. </BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Always possible it was a record, or a best speed. =
<BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Who=20
    are you reading? </BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR><SPAN>Pratchett.&nbsp; :-)&nbsp; Nah, not sure where I first =
saw the=20
  10-12 figure (though it may have been Oman's "</SPAN><SPAN>Art of War =
in the=20
  Middle Ages" -- considered rather outdated these days).&nbsp; =
</SPAN><B=20
  class=3Dsans></B><SPAN>Doing a bit of tracing back from online quotes =
of rate of=20
  fire seems to sometimes point to Bradbury's "The Medieval Archer"... =
so that=20
  could be another source.<BR><BR>No idea though how any of them got =
their=20
  figure, 'cos </SPAN>I can't see that anyone was timing with a =
stopwatch at=20
  Crecy or Poictiers.=20
:-)<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HT=
ML>
=00
------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.0BEC20F6--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.5CA67932
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Luxton-Reilly [mailto:andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:24
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  It may of course take some time to set up a new 
> list.  In 
> the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss GM hints, tips etc. 
> could preface the message subject with [DQ-GM].  That way, 
> people that 
> are not interested can set up a filter to trash the non-rules stuff. 
> People that only want the discussion about GMing can filter 
> all the non 
> [DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)
> 
> In any case, I would still prefer to see rules discussions 
> tempered with 
> consideration for "How does this change make the game more 
> fun for GMs 
> and players alike".
> 

The most-discussed topic of late has been due to a specifc issue of player
boredom, and how to address it (via the rules, as that is the only practical
way).

Also look at what is driving (drove?) most issues on
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pending_Rule_Changes

Rules generally change to provide more fun overall. Otherwise why bother?

Cheers
Errol

------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.5CA67932
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Fun?  A change of discussion direction in the DQ =
List</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Andrew Luxton-Reilly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz">mailto:andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz=
</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:24</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion =
direction in the DQ List</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Fair enough.&nbsp; It may of course take some =
time to set up a new </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; list.&nbsp; In </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss =
GM hints, tips etc. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; could preface the message subject with =
[DQ-GM].&nbsp; That way, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; people that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; are not interested can set up a filter to trash =
the non-rules stuff. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; People that only want the discussion about =
GMing can filter </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; all the non </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; [DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In any case, I would still prefer to see rules =
discussions </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; tempered with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; consideration for &quot;How does this change =
make the game more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; fun for GMs </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and players alike&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The most-discussed topic of late has been due to a =
specifc issue of player boredom, and how to address it (via the rules, =
as that is the only practical way).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Also look at what is driving (drove?) most issues =
on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pending_Rule_Chan=
ges" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pending=
_Rule_Changes</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Rules generally change to provide more fun overall. =
Otherwise why bother?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C62799.5CA67932--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I have deliberately used both a Good/Bad dichotomy and an all-is-grey,
as well as an Alfalfa-Tortoise dichotomy (i.e. not the same moral
compass as PCs, but clearly moral rules).

In my opinion, it depends what atmosphere you are trying to create. For
a demon-rich adventure, I like to paint everything in greys, with slips
showing that everything is actually black & white, but its easier to
think in greys because then the party can forgive itself. For a weird
adventure (Oz, Procenia, cross-genre stuff), having a different moral
compass altogether is interesting, but can be bloody hard work and easy
to get wrong in communicating with the party. Basic NPCs I like to paint
as having much simpler motivations than PCs. A Good/Evil presentation of
them gives a nice stereotype, even if later a party finds out that the
grumpy and secretive (thus bad) old man is in fact the one who saved the
babies from the friendly, helpful (thus good) barmaid. Having actual
Good/Evil at the core of people only works with Demons & maybe Angels.
Evenyone is redeemable or partially good - otherwise, slaughtering
anyone bad is an easy out with no moral consequences or guilt or doubt.

If the players don't doubt the death of 20% of the NPCs they slaughter
(deliberately, not accidents), then the world is black & white. That's
fine for some adventures, but not for all - it becomes too comic-book
heroic for me if there is no self-doubt. And too soap-opera if every
death is second guessed - most of the deaths should be "splat, who's
next".

Andrew

-----Original Message-----

2)Law of Melodrama. Borrowed from TORG's Nile Empire realm. Everyone is
either Good or Evil and there is no middle ground. Most people you meet
in civilised areas are 'Good' except for the genuine rotters. Good
people may still be mercanaries, assassians, pirates and so forth but
deep down (sometimes really deep) there is a heart of gold. Evils are
also deep down complete scum. Khassire is the world I run where this
specifically applies. To those who have adventured there, what did you
think?

William


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I put [DQ-GM] in the title of my last post. The list server removed it
and replaced it with [DQ]. Simplicity defeated by Tech, again.

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List


Fair enough.  It may of course take some time to set up a new list.  In 
the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss GM hints, tips etc. 
could preface the message subject with [DQ-GM].  That way, people that 
are not interested can set up a filter to trash the non-rules stuff. 
People that only want the discussion about GMing can filter all the non 
[DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279B.3951DEDE
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I noticed that with [Rulebook].
Use {GM}, that should come out as "[DQ] {GM}"

Errol

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:48
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List
> 
> 
> I put [DQ-GM] in the title of my last post. The list server removed it
> and replaced it with [DQ]. Simplicity defeated by Tech, again.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List
> 
> 
> Fair enough.  It may of course take some time to set up a new 
> list.  In 
> the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss GM hints, tips etc. 
> could preface the message subject with [DQ-GM].  That way, 
> people that 
> are not interested can set up a filter to trash the non-rules stuff. 
> People that only want the discussion about GMing can filter 
> all the non 
> [DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279B.3951DEDE
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2658.2">
<TITLE>RE: [dq] Fun?  A change of discussion direction in the DQ List</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I noticed that with [Rulebook].</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Use {GM}, that should come out as &quot;[DQ] {GM}&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [<A HREF="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 14:48</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; I put [DQ-GM] in the title of my last post. The list server removed it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; and replaced it with [DQ]. Simplicity defeated by Tech, again.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Fair enough.&nbsp; It may of course take some time to set up a new </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; list.&nbsp; In </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; the meantime, perhaps people wanting to discuss GM hints, tips etc. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; could preface the message subject with [DQ-GM].&nbsp; That way, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; people that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; are not interested can set up a filter to trash the non-rules stuff. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; People that only want the discussion about GMing can filter </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; all the non </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; [DQ-GM] stuff that comes in :)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify <A HREF="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279B.3951DEDE--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279D.3F3AF29E
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<Very Rules>
=20
7.8 Magic resistance (Of course):
Sentient entities are those with an MA of 0 or greater.
=20
9
List of Aura strengths. Stone Golems are non-sentient.
=20
13.6 Golem Intellience
Golems have an animal level intelligence.
Golem Animal Equivalents: Clay =3D Ox; Rag & String =3D Monkey; Iron =3D
Tiger; Stone =3D Elephant; Wood =3D Dog.
=20
All those players with golems (Stephen and Helen - are there any
others?) are trying to either depower their own rituals, or fix a
typo/contradiction. Its clearly an oops, and most everyone plays the
animal intelligence as per the ritual descriptions.
=20
Unless it is controversial?...
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Errol Cavit
	Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:11 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
=09
=09

	To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper trail?=20

	Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you indicate a
correct version?=20


	Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook on
the basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had
evidence in History of which was correct)


	Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out
anywhere?=20

	Thanks=20
	Errol=20

	> -----Original Message-----=20
	> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
Behalf Of=20
	> Stephen Martin=20
	> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42=20
	> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
	> Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table=20
	>=20
	>=20
	> Fine by me Errol.=20
	>=20
	> And I'm in favour of making them MA none.  As the person who=20
	> made the mistake of putting 0 instead=20
	> of none, I can confirm that it was a mistake.  They are=20
	> non-sentient entities.  As such they=20
	> should have MA none not 0.=20
	>=20
	> Cheers, Stephen.=20
	>=20
	> Helen Saggers said:=20
	> >=20
	> > Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a
Vote?=20
	> >=20
	> > MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't
work.=20
	> > It should be none or Adepts when possessed.=20
	> >=20
	> > Helen=20
	> >   ----- Original Message -----=20
	> >   From: Errol Cavit=20
	> >   To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
	> >   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM=20
	> >   Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table=20
	> >=20
	> >=20
	> >   I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there=20
	> is no reason not to have everything=20
	> > transparent.=20
	> >=20
	> >   =20
	>
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics=20
	> >=20
	> >   I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to=20
	> reflect the December approval vote.=20
	> >=20
	> >   Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of=20
	> the positive numbers in the 'TMR=20
	> > Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving=20
	> readability? I'll also put a "*"=20
	> > after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.=20
	> >=20
	> >   Cheers=20
	> >   Errol=20
	>=20
	>=20
	> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --=20
	>=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279D.3F3AF29E
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&lt;Very Rules&gt;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>7.8=20
Magic resistance (Of course):</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Sentient entities<SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006> </SPAN>are =
those with an=20
MA of 0 or greater.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>9</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>List=20
of Aura strengths. Stone Golems are non-sentient.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>13.6 Golem=20
Intellience</FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D1>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Golems =
have an animal=20
level intelligence.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Golem =
Animal Equivalents:=20
Clay =3D Ox; Rag &amp; String<SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006> =
</SPAN>=3D Monkey; Iron=20
=3D Tiger; Stone =3D Elephant; Wood =3D<SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006> =

</SPAN>Dog.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>All=20
those players with golems (Stephen and Helen - are there any others?) =
are trying=20
to either depower their own rituals, or fix a typo/contradiction. Its=20
clearly&nbsp;an oops, and most everyone plays the animal intelligence as =
per the=20
ritual descriptions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Unless=20
it is controversial?...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Errol=20
  Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:11 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem=20
  Table<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>To save future arguments, are you able to give a =
paper=20
  trail?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you =
indicate=20
  a correct version?</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the =
Rulebook on=20
  the basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had =
evidence=20
  in History of which was correct)</FONT></P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt =
out=20
  anywhere?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On=
 Behalf=20
  Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Stephen Martin</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
To:=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] =
{Rulebook}=20
  Golem Table</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Fine by me Errol.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; And I'm in favour of making them MA =
none.&nbsp;=20
  As the person who </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; made the mistake of =
putting 0=20
  instead</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; of none, I can confirm that it =
was a=20
  mistake.&nbsp; They are </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; non-sentient=20
  entities.&nbsp; As such they</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; should =
have MA none=20
  not 0.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
Cheers,=20
  Stephen.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
Helen=20
  Saggers said:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt; Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a =
Vote?</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; MA 0 =
on a=20
  construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work.</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt; It should be none or Adepts when possessed.</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; Helen</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; ----- Original Message -----</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; From: Errol Cavit</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem =
Table</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess this is mainly for Helen and =
Stephen, but=20
  there </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; is no reason not to have =
everything</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; transparent.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Stati=
stics"=20
  =
target=3D_blank>http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Gol=
em_Statistics</A></FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've=20
  updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to </FONT><BR><FONT=20
  size=3D2>&gt; reflect the December approval vote.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can you confirm =
that I'm=20
  correct to add a '+' in front of </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; the =
positive=20
  numbers in the 'TMR</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; Mod' column of =
the=20
  table, and that this is just improving </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt;=20
  readability? I'll also put a "*"</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt; =
after the=20
  "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
&gt;</FONT>=20
  <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>&gt;=20
  &gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; Errol</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT =

  size=3D2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; -- to unsubscribe notify =
<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</A=
>=20
  --</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; =
</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
------_=_NextPart_001_01C6279D.3F3AF29E--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I think that the idea of discussing DMing as an art form is well overdue. We
spend quite a bit of time on the technical areas of the game. Which is not to
say that it's not valuable. That kind of discussion is just as necessary.

My concern with discussing the art form part of the game is, well...What do you
talk about? I mean, I could talk about how good Jono's game is, and even give
you some reasons why it's good. That might be useful to some people, but I
suspect it's not going to be handy to many.

DMing as a creative endeavour is pretty unusual. The DM must create at least one
story that is going to engage the players' attention, but not so much that they
feel that they have no choice but to pursue it. The DM must be flexible enough
so that when the players go off in an unpredictable direction, defying all
logic, then the action follows seamlessly along. Additionally, the DM must be
considering the advancement of the character.

There are more tasks that are required of the DM, but these will do for now. It
seems clear to me that this is quite similar to a number of artistic fields.
So, let's talk about writing a short story.

How do they teach someone to write a short story? They don't, really. Instead,
they get writers together to talk about how they write the things they do, and
the reasons why they have chosen particular techniques. Conveniently, there are
even books on the subject, written by people who are considered to be expert in
the area.

We don't have that luxury. What we have in the Guild is a few naturally talented
DMs, a lot of DMs who don't really know what they're doing, and an even smaller
number of DMs who have got to being good purely by hard work/trial and error.

Essentially, our expertise base is limited. Even if we identified all of the
good DMs, and we all listened to everything they had to say, I would say we are
likely to produce poor games as a result of some DMs slavishly following some
'given' form of DMing. Or being pressured into it by others. I don't know what
the rpg equivalent of the Blue Boy would be, but this is one way of encouraging
it to happen.

I think we need to discuss these things face to face. Perhaps over coffee,
perhaps in a more formal way, but I think we actually have to be able to talk
to people. I don't think the list is a good place. It's not like you can show
someone what you've written, and ask them what they think, is it? A lot of it
is about a performance, and I've yet to see an email client capable of
capturing that.

I think that Jono & Hamish's idea of a DM workshop is a good one, and we should
definitely have a go at that. But, in general, I think we could increase the
quality of DMing by just meeting with someone with the purpose of discussing
some aspect of a game as an art form. I am not convinced that an email list is
going to do anything useful, and I suspect that it will just be quite confusing
for people who are already struggling.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Thanks Andrew.

Re a paper trail - burned or thrown out years ago.
It was when we rewrote Binder a few years ago - late 90's maybe.  I put in MA=0 thinking that
meant non-sentient.  A couple of years later it was queried and the mistake revealed, now a few
years futher on we're fixing it.  Seems about the right pace for DQ - good things take time. :-)

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> <Very Rules>
>
> 7.8 Magic resistance (Of course):
> Sentient entities are those with an MA of 0 or greater.
>
> 9
> List of Aura strengths. Stone Golems are non-sentient.
>
> 13.6 Golem Intellience
> Golems have an animal level intelligence.
> Golem Animal Equivalents: Clay = Ox; Rag & String = Monkey; Iron Tiger; Stone = Elephant; Wood =
> Dog.
>
> All those players with golems (Stephen and Helen - are there any
> others?) are trying to either depower their own rituals, or fix a
> typo/contradiction. Its clearly an oops, and most everyone plays the animal intelligence as per
> the ritual descriptions.
>
> Unless it is controversial?...
>
> Andrew
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of Errol Cavit
> 	Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:11 p.m.
> 	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> 	Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
>
>
>
> 	To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper trail?
>
> 	Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you indicate a
> correct version?
>
>
> 	Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook on
> the basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had evidence in History of
> which was correct)
>
>
> 	Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out
> anywhere?
>
> 	Thanks
> 	Errol
>
> 	> -----Original Message-----
> 	> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
> Behalf Of
> 	> Stephen Martin
> 	> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42
> 	> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> 	> Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> Fine by me Errol.
> 	>
> 	> And I'm in favour of making them MA none.  As the person who
> 	> made the mistake of putting 0 instead
> 	> of none, I can confirm that it was a mistake.  They are
> 	> non-sentient entities.  As such they
> 	> should have MA none not 0.
> 	>
> 	> Cheers, Stephen.
> 	>
> 	> Helen Saggers said:
> 	> >
> 	> > Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a
> Vote?
> 	> >
> 	> > MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't
> work.
> 	> > It should be none or Adepts when possessed.
> 	> >
> 	> > Helen
> 	> >   ----- Original Message -----
> 	> >   From: Errol Cavit
> 	> >   To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> 	> >   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:17 AM
> 	> >   Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table
> 	> >
> 	> >
> 	> >   I guess this is mainly for Helen and Stephen, but there
> 	> is no reason not to have everything
> 	> > transparent.
> 	> >
> 	> >
> 	>
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Golems#Golem_Statistics
> 	> >
> 	> >   I've updated the note on the Wiki version of the Table to
> 	> reflect the December approval vote.
> 	> >
> 	> >   Can you confirm that I'm correct to add a '+' in front of
> 	> the positive numbers in the 'TMR
> 	> > Mod' column of the table, and that this is just improving
> 	> readability? I'll also put a "*"
> 	> > after the "Rk" at the bottom of each sub-table.
> 	> >
> 	> >   Cheers
> 	> >   Errol
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 	>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is both my first Jono game and fie=rst high level adventure.  

The combats are definitely more intersting when running at this speed 
and encorage the players to plan ahead what to do.  It has also made the 
Military Scientist Time Outs more valuable as there is not time during 
the pulse to think about things - much like a real combat would be.

The other bonus to the fast combat is that it promotes heroic style fun 
gamig in that we are generally able to clear the rabble quickly and 
focus on the big bad guys.

Scott Whitaker

Andrew Luxton-Reilly wrote:

> I think it goes without saying that everyone has their own style of 
> GMing and playing.  Nobody can require you to play or GM in a given 
> style.  However, it is good to hear what works for others and consider 
> if it might work in your own games.
>
> I have not actually played in any of Jono's games for many years, so I 
> don't know how well the fast combat works.  However, Jono (and some of 
> his players) report that it works well.
>
> Specifically, Jono requires players to make up their minds quickly, 
> otherwise their characters take a pass action.  If a player does not 
> know their base chance then they automatically fail.  If a player is 
> unprepared then they lose.
>
> This has a number of reported effects:
> 1.  Players show up prepared.  This is beneficial for everyone since 
> the rest of the entire group does not have to sit around and wait for 
> one person to muck around for 5 mins working out a base chance in the 
> middle of combat.
> 2.  The game moves rapidly.  This means that a lot of stuff happens in 
> an evening.  This may not be to everyone's tastes, but it appears to 
> work for the players in the party.
> 3.  The level of tension is higher and players seem to be more engaged 
> with the game.  Players are concentrating on the combat and it appears 
> to be exciting for them.  If you want to engender a sense of 
> excitement in the game, then this could be one way to achieve it.
>
> I have not heard of any downsides.  Perhaps Jono could comment in more 
> detail on any advantages, disadvantages or problems for the GM or 
> players that this has caused.  Players involved in the game may want 
> to comment on how the fast combat style has impacted on them.
>
> Ciao,
> Andrew
>
>
> Cosmo wrote:
>
>> It's absolutely your and any other GM's prerogative to run combats 
>> hard and fast, but it's not going to suit everybody, especially 
>> nice-guy GM's like yours truly. And if you advertised your games as 
>> 'Medium-Fast' that might be a consideration.
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

It shouldn't hurt to talk. This may gather interest in the idea of
learning, and encourage people to think, and perhaps meet over coffee.

If it is not of interest, or doesn't teach people, then the emails will
die off. In themself email posts may not be useful - I certainly learn
more from talking in person.

Lets throw some ideas around and see if people want to think. Gather
momentum.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 3:27 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Fun? A change of discussion direction in the DQ List


I think that the idea of discussing DMing as an art form is well
overdue. We spend quite a bit of time on the technical areas of the
game. Which is not to say that it's not valuable. That kind of
discussion is just as necessary.

My concern with discussing the art form part of the game is, well...What
do you talk about? I mean, I could talk about how good Jono's game is,
and even give you some reasons why it's good. That might be useful to
some people, but I suspect it's not going to be handy to many.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 12:58, Andrew Luxton-Reilly wrote:
> It seems to me that we should consider rule changes with respect to the 
> ultimate goal of having fun when we roleplay.  I don't see all that many 
> suggestions or discussions revolving around the concept of what engages 
> people more and what result in a more exciting, more fun game.

It seems to me that fun is still the driving force in proposed rule
changes. E.g. the strength argument is that the pure fighters should
have high ST as an advantage over mages which can't be neutralized
simply by quaffing a potion - to make it more fun to play non-mages.
Ditto the "overpowered spells" debate - if the winning strategy is too
obvious in invariable, it reduces fun.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A5.F8DB41E6
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 15:06
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table


<Very Rules> 
 

Because everyone knows that an contradictory rulebook is fun for all the
family!!

 
 
7.8 Magic resistance (Of course):
Sentient entities are those with an MA of 0 or greater. 
 

 
Also
 
 
7.1 Introduction to Magic 
Definitions:
Mage :  Any sentient being who can manipulate mana
to produce (often fantastic) results (excluding racial
Talents). A Mage must have a Magical Aptitude characteristic.
 

 
9
List of Aura strengths. Stone Golems are non-sentient.
 
13.6 Golem Intellience

Golems have an animal level intelligence.
Golem Animal Equivalents: Clay = Ox; Rag & String = Monkey; Iron = Tiger;
Stone = Elephant; Wood = Dog.
 
All those players with golems (Stephen and Helen - are there any others?)
are trying to either depower their own rituals, or fix a typo/contradiction.
Its clearly an oops, and most everyone plays the animal intelligence as per
the ritual descriptions.
 
Unless it is controversial?...
 
Andrew 
 
 

I _suppose_ it's OK.....
 
Pity the Flesh Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are sentient (to
confirm the 0 stat given there). 
Talents, Skills and Magic should be re-written to make the position of
magical talents clear, but that is an issue for next time.
 
Cheers
Errol
 
 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table



To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper trail? 

Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you indicate a correct
version? 


Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook on the basis of
strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had evidence in History
of which was correct)


Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out anywhere? 

Thanks 
Errol 

> -----Original Message----- 
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [ mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
<mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz> ]On Behalf Of 
> Stephen Martin 
> Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42 
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
> Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table 
> 
> 
> Fine by me Errol. 
> 
> And I'm in favour of making them MA none.  As the person who 
> made the mistake of putting 0 instead 
> of none, I can confirm that it was a mistake.  They are 
> non-sentient entities.  As such they 
> should have MA none not 0. 
> 
> Cheers, Stephen. 
> 
> Helen Saggers said: 
> > 
> > Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table with out a Vote? 
> > 
> > MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't work. 
> > It should be none or Adepts when possessed. 
> > 
> > Helen 



------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A5.F8DB41E6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Andrew Withy (DSL AK) 
  [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 2 February 2006 
  15:06<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] {Rulebook} 
  Golem Table<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2>&lt;Very Rules&gt;<SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=380511302-02022006>Because everyone knows 
that an contradictory rulebook is fun for all the 
family!!</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>7.8 
  Magic resistance (Of course):</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2>Sentient entities<SPAN class=653520002-02022006> </SPAN>are those with 
  an MA of 0 or greater.<SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006>Also</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><FONT 
face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><FONT 
size=1>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff>7.1 
Introduction to Magic<SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=1><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Definitions:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Mage<SPAN class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;:&nbsp;</SPAN> 
</FONT></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Any sentient being who can manipulate mana</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>to produce (often 
fantastic) results (excluding racial</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Talents). A Mage 
must have a Magical Aptitude characteristic.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN 
class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT 
  color=#0000ff></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>9</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>List 
  of Aura strengths. Stone Golems are non-sentient.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
  class=653520002-02022006></SPAN><SPAN 
  class=653520002-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><SPAN 
  class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial size=1><FONT color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2>13.6 Golem 
  Intellience</FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=1>
  <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Golems have an animal 
  level intelligence.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Golem Animal 
  Equivalents: Clay = Ox; Rag &amp; String<SPAN class=653520002-02022006> 
  </SPAN>= Monkey; Iron = Tiger; Stone = Elephant; Wood =<SPAN 
  class=653520002-02022006> </SPAN>Dog.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>All 
  those players with golems (Stephen and Helen - are there any others?) are 
  trying to either depower their own rituals, or fix a typo/contradiction. Its 
  clearly&nbsp;an oops, and most everyone plays the animal intelligence as per 
  the ritual descriptions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Unless it is controversial?...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2>Andrew<SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=380511302-02022006>I _suppose_ it's 
OK.....</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT><FONT><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Pity the Flesh 
Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are sentient (to confirm the 0 stat given 
there). </FONT>
<DT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Talents, Skills and Magic&nbsp;should 
be re-written to make the position of magical talents clear, but that is an 
issue for next time.</FONT></DT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=380511302-02022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
class=380511302-02022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN class=653520002-02022006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=380511302-02022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
    face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of 
    </B>Errol Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 2 February 2006 2:11 
    p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] {Rulebook} 
    Golem Table<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <P><FONT size=2>To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper 
    trail?</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT size=2>Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you 
    indicate a correct version?</FONT> </P><BR>
    <P><FONT size=2>Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook 
    on the basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had 
    evidence in History of which was correct)</FONT></P><BR>
    <P><FONT size=2>Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out 
    anywhere?</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT size=2>Thanks</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Errol</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT size=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
    From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A 
    href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On 
    Behalf Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Stephen Martin</FONT> <BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 13:42</FONT> <BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: 
    [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Fine by me Errol.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; And I'm in favour of making them MA 
    none.&nbsp; As the person who </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; made the mistake 
    of putting 0 instead</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; of none, I can confirm 
    that it was a mistake.&nbsp; They are </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
    non-sentient entities.&nbsp; As such they</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
    should have MA none not 0.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; Helen Saggers said:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; Can we get rid of the anoying MA 0 in the table 
    with out a Vote?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt; &gt; MA 0 on a construct with an Animal like inteligance dosn't 
    work.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; It should be none or Adepts when 
    possessed.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
    &gt; Helen</FONT> <BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A5.F8DB41E6--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I have run a couple of sessions for new GM's with some tips and tricks
that myself and William came up with to help new GM's. 

I thought I would share these to try this discussion thing out. 

Tip 1. 
Planning. 

When I started writing games, (as opposed to making them up on the fly)
the method I used was to start with a really simple direct concept.
There are only three or four and most games regardless of complexity use
them. 

Recover something. 
Find something.
Kill something. 

The bulk of adventures use these basic ideas and then flesh them out to
make them interesting. As starting GM's there are not too many other
base story idea's that work well. Explore something or other open ended,
non focussed game concepts are generally too difficult for most new GM's
to keep up the interest in players. 

When you look back on the adventure you play on and GM they just about
always have the same 3-4 story arcs. The trick is in how the GM presents
the story and the area's and NPC's the players interract with. 


Once I have the basic simple concept I map out a 9 session game. (9
sessions always becomes 12-13 once players get involved. 

Session 1. Introduction and getting to the adventure location. 
Session 2. Get basic details about adventure and discover first issue. 
Session 3. First combat to see how the party works together. 
Session 4. Greater complexity surrounding problem 
Session 5. Working towards the solution
Session 6. Preparing final plans. 
Session 7. Main battle
Session 8. Finish battle or deal with consequences
Session 9. head home and wrap up. 

Obviously these are scoped out more and are focussed on the mission
being planned. As you work through each session I would work out the
requirements for NPC's and slowly the bulk of the adventure would come
from those ashes. 

The first one I wrote was 

1. Introduction and get players on board ship. 
2. Travel and discover strange child. 
3. Travel through lands to get to tower. (Possible bandit attack)
4. Get through portal and discover new land
5. Travel to tunnel annd city. 
6. Arrival fight. (Make capture attempt obvious so the party knows
no-one is trying to kill them)
7. Find out about actual assault and start planning
8. Big assault 
9. Rescue Mage, find out what was going on. Get home. 

In the end I had to add an extra bit on the end and flesh out some of
the shipboard travel but it worked well in general. 

So far I know of two other GM's one of them on the list who have tried
this method of planning out their games with some success. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A6.674E1DC1
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

9 List of Aura strengths. Flesh Golems are non-sentient. This confirms
the intent.
=20
Suggested consistency tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it is
sentient.
=20
------------------------------

	Pity the Flesh Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are
sentient (to confirm the 0 stat given there).=20
	Talents, Skills and Magic should be re-written to make the
position of magical talents clear, but that is an issue for next time.
	=20
	Cheers
	Errol
	=20
	=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A6.674E1DC1
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006>9<SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006> =
</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006>List of Aura strengths.&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D700101003-02022006>Flesh </SPAN>Golems are non-sentient<SPAN=20
class=3D700101003-02022006>. This c</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006>onfirms the=20
intent.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN=20
class=3D700101003-02022006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV=
>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006>Suggested =
consistency=20
tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it is=20
sentient.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN=20
class=3D700101003-02022006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV=
>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN =
class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D380511302-02022006><SPAN=20
class=3D700101003-02022006>------------------------------</SPAN></SPAN></=
FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT size=3D+0><FONT =
size=3D+0><SPAN=20
  class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Pity the Flesh=20
  Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are sentient (to confirm the 0 =
stat=20
  given there). </FONT>
  <DT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Talents, Skills and=20
  Magic&nbsp;should be re-written to make the position of magical =
talents clear,=20
  but that is an issue for next time.</FONT></DT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
------_=_NextPart_001_01C627A6.674E1DC1--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>:

> It shouldn't hurt to talk. This may gather interest in the idea of
> learning, and encourage people to think, and perhaps meet over coffee.
>
> If it is not of interest, or doesn't teach people, then the emails will
> die off. In themself email posts may not be useful - I certainly learn
> more from talking in person.

Yes, and so will any other related endeavour. We don't even have a shared
language to dicuss ideas, so how are we going to do that with this part of the
game.

This list grew out of Gods Meetings, and it was considered a good way to get
stuff discussed before a meeting so that less time was taken up with people
talking to a point. And, it has served that purpose, and others, well.

But, this proposed list or specific discussion has no experience of Gods
Meetings to draw upon, because this sort of thing was never talked about in
them. More importantly, a discussion about the rules is a discussion about the
game in a very general way. A discussion on DMing is unavoidably personal.

Consider this. Any discussion about what makes a game good or bad, inevitably
means that you are going to be talking about a source, i.e. a DM. Now, while
Jono is unlikely to worry too much if someone says 'Jono's game is good because
it had me in a fetal position for half of the playing time'. On the other hand,
he's probably not going to feel too flash hot if someonne says 'Jono's game is
boring because of <insert reason here>'.

So, let's say that you then describe what you are complaining about in some kind
of abstracted way. It's still pretty much on the cards that Jono is going to
realise that he is being talked about. If it is abstracted enough that Jono
doesn't realise that he's being talked about, then it's probably so vague and
generalised that Jono (and others) wouldn't realise what the problem is, or
what they do to recover from it.

There are SOME things you can offer as suggestions to make life more convenient
for other DMs. Develop stock encounters for when the players do things you
never expected, have an aim for the evening, etc, etc, etc. These are mostly
administrative tips, however, and you could probably write them on the back of a
matchbox. But, look at the way we talk about rules.

Most people lead with the reason that something that is currently in play is
wrong. How do you see that approach working with respect to the cherished
oeuvre of some DM? I think some people would feel that they were being
pilloried. I don't think you're going to get people lining up to DM as a result
of such a move. And, it's not like DMs are thick on the ground now.
>
> Lets throw some ideas around and see if people want to think. Gather
> momentum.
>
See, I don't think I'd have said that.

I'd have said 'Light the blue touch paper, and stand well clear' myself.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Generalising, you can have plot-driven games, situation-driven games,
and PC-driven games (or different balances of these three).

Plot-driven games are easiest to plan, and can be made more linear if a
starting GM is overwhelmed, or less linear as required. Most games are
plot-driven. Mandos's check-list works well for these.

Situation-driven games, you set up a situation and motivations for NPCs,
and provide an initial impetus for PCs, and then manage the interaction
being the different groups. I find that I need to turn back to a
plot-driven, linear scenario for the last 2-3 weeks to end with a
satisfying bang. Developing and maintaining tension and pace is also
tricky. Also, sometimes the party stalls and flounders in the middle as
it all becomes too much, and there aren't obvious ways through -
developing techniques to lessen this problem took me years and *too
many* games to resolve. For me, writing situation games takes a
completely different mindset than a plot-based game, and is harder to
get right, but much more fun as a GM when it works.

PC-driven games are really open-ended, and they are hardest to run
because more general preparation is needed. They can do anything, go
anywhere, and you don't know where they are coming from. Perhaps no game
is truly 100% PC-driven, but all games should feel that way - i.e.
little apparent constraints on their actions, except consequences.
Situation-driven games are more PC-driven than most plot-based games.

Looking forward to tip #2.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 4:08 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] {GM} Mandos Tips and tricks V1



I have run a couple of sessions for new GM's with some tips and tricks
that myself and William came up with to help new GM's. 

I thought I would share these to try this discussion thing out. 

Tip 1. 
Planning. 

When I started writing games, (as opposed to making them up on the fly)
the method I used was to start with a really simple direct concept.
There are only three or four and most games regardless of complexity use
them. 

Recover something. 
Find something.
Kill something.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this.

But, what George is discussing here is a form, as structured in its way as a
sonnet or a Greek tragedy.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with using it. There is nothing wrong with not using
it, either. And, I'm not saying that George is saying that anyone should.

George's structure has all of the elements of the seven arc story, plus two
others:
Introduction and movement to the setting (which would be required for a multi-DM
environment)

First combat to see how the party work together (which would be required for any
rpg)

The form has been around for a long time...Well, for as long as there have been
stories, I suppose. Nevertheless, not everyone sees stories unfolding in this
way, naturally, so this approach isn't always going to be that useful.

The discipline of putting things together in a structured way is helpful,
though. Even if the thing turns completely to custard. At the very least, a DM
might work out a different way that works for them and others.

Jim.


Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:


>
> Once I have the basic simple concept I map out a 9 session game. (9
> sessions always becomes 12-13 once players get involved.
>
> Session 1. Introduction and getting to the adventure location.
> Session 2. Get basic details about adventure and discover first issue.
> Session 3. First combat to see how the party works together.
> Session 4. Greater complexity surrounding problem
> Session 5. Working towards the solution
> Session 6. Preparing final plans.
> Session 7. Main battle
> Session 8. Finish battle or deal with consequences
> Session 9. head home and wrap up.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Tip 2. 
Combats and the art of fudging. 

For a starting GM and others who are easily overcome by the volumes of
numbers in a fight here is a trick I learned from William. 

The most important thing for a GM in a combat is to keep it running
smoothly. If you stop for too long or scrabble in your notes the players
will lose interest and start to talk amongst themselve further
disrupting the flow of combat. 

The most common error amongst new GM's is that they stick hard and fast
to their numbers and have not had a chance to practise and develop the
skills to keep track of the numbers, hence the resulting scrabbling
through sheaves of paper. 

To fix this and for those occasional moment where the GM's brain just
stops William came up with some simple numbers. 

On a low level Game if a roll is under 75 it's a hit. 
On a medium level game if a roll is under 50 it's a hit. 
On a high level game if it's under 25 it's a hit. 
On an extreme game you either shouldn't be GM'ing at this level or your
players will have some patience :-)

This allows you to get over the particular strike in question and
recover the paperwork without disrupting the combat. 

Obviously you use the real numbers as much as possible but if you miss
and end up fudging one as long as the combat flows nicely most players
will never notice. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Are these the kind of things people want to see and discuss or am I
missing the point somewhere?

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Situation-driven games, you set up a situation and 
> motivations for NPCs, and provide an initial impetus for PCs, 
> and then manage the interaction being the different groups. I 
> find that I need to turn back to a plot-driven, linear 
> scenario for the last 2-3 weeks to end with a satisfying 
> bang. Developing and maintaining tension and pace is also 
> tricky. Also, sometimes the party stalls and flounders in the 
> middle as it all becomes too much, and there aren't obvious 
> ways through - developing techniques to lessen this problem 
> took me years and *too many* games to resolve. 
> For me, writing situation games takes 
> a completely different mindset than a plot-based game, and is 
> harder to get right, but much more fun as a GM when it works.

Any hints on the techniques you developed? This is the kind of game I
would like to run more of but at the moment I base things on a Plot
driven game and let situational stuff develop on the fly as the
Situational adventures seem to have impetus issues. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I have a few rules of thumb. They aren't final or polished.

Have a depth of background.
Have a strong atmosphere. This creates flavour and tension.
Try to have an NPC or two with parties to give hints or background info
when required.
Have a tight timeline that is based on a party fear.
Motivate the party by making the party intimately affected by the
situation.
Make the party care about some of the individuals (not like, but have an
emotional response to).
Have feedback from actions and plots. Consequences.
Have other people doing things that impact on the party *in the right
way* to build atmosphere and depth of experience.

If you try 5-6 of these and get 3-4 working OK, its usually enough. If
not, revert to a more linear plot. These things are quite good for a
plot game, but more important for a situation game where the plot
doesn't automatically generate events and pace.

I suspect that Jono's approach of rapid combats and rapid pace would
contribute well to maintaining impetus for this story type, but I'm not
so good at doing that.

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Mandos Mitchinson
Sent: Thursday, 2 February 2006 4:34 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] {GM} Mandos Tips and tricks V1


> Situation-driven games, you set up a situation and
> motivations for NPCs, and provide an initial impetus for PCs, 
> and then manage the interaction being the different groups. I 
> find that I need to turn back to a plot-driven, linear 
> scenario for the last 2-3 weeks to end with a satisfying 
> bang. Developing and maintaining tension and pace is also 
> tricky. Also, sometimes the party stalls and flounders in the 
> middle as it all becomes too much, and there aren't obvious 
> ways through - developing techniques to lessen this problem 
> took me years and *too many* games to resolve. 
> For me, writing situation games takes 
> a completely different mindset than a plot-based game, and is 
> harder to get right, but much more fun as a GM when it works.

Any hints on the techniques you developed? This is the kind of game I
would like to run more of but at the moment I base things on a Plot
driven game and let situational stuff develop on the fly as the
Situational adventures seem to have impetus issues. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_28803_3233034.1138852475414
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, Andrew Withy (DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> wrote:
>
>  9 List of Aura strengths. Flesh Golems are non-sentient. This confirms
> the intent.
>

I think you mean "Flesh Golems ARE sentient". (Aura strength:  "8 Sentient
Animates (flesh golem) and Sentient Undead (vampire)".

Suggested consistency tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it is
> sentient.
>

Good idea.

Cheers,
Martin

------=_Part_28803_3233034.1138852475414
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</b> &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<d=
iv><span class=3D"gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">





<div>
<div><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font size=3D"2"><span>9<=
span> </span></span><span>List of Aura strengths.&nbsp;<span>Flesh </span>G=
olems are non-sentient<span>. This c</span></span><span><span>onfirms the=
=20
intent.</span></span></font></font></font></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
>I think you mean &quot;Flesh Golems ARE sentient&quot;. (Aura strength:&nb=
sp; &quot;8 Sentient Animates (flesh golem) and Sentient Undead (vampire)&q=
uot;.
<br></div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px s=
olid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><di=
v><div><font face=3D"Arial"><font color=3D"#0000ff"><font size=3D"2"><span>=
<span>
Suggested consistency=20
tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it is=20
sentient.</span></span></font></font></font></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br>Good idea.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

------=_Part_28803_3233034.1138852475414--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Have feedback from actions and plots. 

Most of the points you made I am working on and suspect I just need more
practice but this one is not something I had considere

When I try and give feedback on plots and machinations I always feel
like I am explaining what went on in a third party kind of sence even
when it comes from NPC actions. How do you deal with it and do you have
any specific ways or tricks you tend to use to provide the feedback? Do
you need to ensure the plots are more transparent from the start?

> I suspect that Jono's approach of rapid combats and rapid 
> pace would contribute well to maintaining impetus for this 
> story type, but I'm not so good at doing that.

I am definatly tempted to give it a go, I suspect some of it has to do
with Jono's natural boundless energy and frenetic natural pace :0-)

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

When GMing a combat I occasionally keep track of the current EN & FT of the NPCs, but more often I
approximate the damage they take into quarters (or halves depending on amounts of damage being
dealt) of their FT and EN as it's faster.

When playing I have seen other GMs vary from tracking every NPC in a reasonable time frame
(marvels of efficiency), to playing it entirely by ear and dropping the NPCs when it best suits
dramatic effect.

The problem with approximating is that sometimes you get it wrong and usually the players have a
pretty good idea of how much damage they have dealt and they either start making false assumptions
about your NPCs or they just feel helpless (it doesn't matter how good I am or how much damage I
do, they won't go down until the GM decides they should using some unknown criteria).

The problem with tracking exactly is that it can become a book-keeping nightmare that drags the
combat out far too much.

Does anyone have a method or balance of approximation vs detail that works well?

Cheers, Stephen.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C6281D.80397690
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

MessageAura strenght 8 sentient Animates (flesh golem)
MA given in nerco collage ritual MA 0
flesh golems seem clear enough

My thoughts on flesh golem are more that it would depend on the creature =
mix, a flesh golem made with non sentiants brains eg a bear or chimera =
would probably be non sentiant, where as one with human, orc or gryphon =
brains would be sentiant.

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK)=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 4:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} Golem Table


  9 List of Aura strengths. Flesh Golems are non-sentient. This confirms =
the intent.

  Suggested consistency tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it =
is sentient.

  ------------------------------
    Pity the Flesh Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are sentient =
(to confirm the 0 stat given there).=20
    Talents, Skills and Magic should be re-written to make the position =
of magical talents clear, but that is an issue for next time.

    Cheers
    Errol


------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C6281D.80397690
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aura strenght 8 sentient Animates =
(flesh=20
golem)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MA given in nerco collage ritual MA =
0</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>flesh golems seem clear =
enough</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My thoughts on flesh golem are more =
that it would=20
depend on the creature mix, a flesh golem made with non sentiants brains =
eg a=20
bear or chimera would probably be non sentiant, where as one with human, =
orc or=20
gryphon brains would be sentiant.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3DAndrewW@datacom.co.nz =
href=3D"mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">Andrew=20
  Withy (DSL AK)</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 02, =
2006 4:11=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] {Rulebook} =
Golem=20
  Table</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006>9<SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006> =
</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006>List of Aura strengths.&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D700101003-02022006>Flesh </SPAN>Golems are non-sentient<SPAN=20
  class=3D700101003-02022006>. This c</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006>onfirms =
the=20
  intent.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D700101003-02022006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV=
>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN class=3D700101003-02022006>Suggested =
consistency=20
  tweak : Add a line to Flesh golem to confirm it is=20
  sentient.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D700101003-02022006></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV=
>
  <DIV>
  <DIV></DIV><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><SPAN =
class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D380511302-02022006><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D700101003-02022006>------------------------------</SPAN></SPAN></=
FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D653520002-02022006><FONT =
size=3D+0><FONT=20
    size=3D+0><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Pity the Flesh Golem Ritual doesn't actually say they are =
sentient=20
    (to confirm the 0 stat given there). </FONT>
    <DT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Talents, Skills and=20
    Magic&nbsp;should be re-written to make the position of magical =
talents=20
    clear, but that is an issue for next time.</FONT></DT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><SPAN class=3D380511302-02022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

------=_NextPart_000_003A_01C6281D.80397690--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Does anyone have a method or balance of approximation vs 
> detail that works well?

I use detail + Planning. 

My bad guys are generally spreadsheeted up using an NPC generator I
have. I ensure that everything I need is on 2 sheets of paper max.
Generally 3 types of bad guys on one sheet and another sheet to track ft
and end. 

The two pieces of paper max means I can always find the paper I need and
the number I want pretty quickly. I generally hang the bad guy stats
from my GM screen and just have the FT END sheet on the table beside me.


I also use the fudging system described to cover any internal confusion.


I think for me the extra 20 mins preparing for the fight is the
important part and the planning hopefully pays off. 

The only litmus test of course is the players responses. (How was the
last fight you were in?)

The GM's whose fights I have enjoyed the most recently have been. 

Ben Taberner - Always inventive, interesting and they flow fairly well. 
Phil Judd - A bit slow and complex but given the 20-30 opposing mages
using intellegent tactics and a wide range of spells I am amazed at how
well the combat went. Very entertaining and I enjoyed every session of
it (48 pulses over 3 nights)
William Dymock - His balance in a combat is incredible. I gererally feel
nervous at some point in every fight and the fear and adrenaline is
terrific. 

Would be good to hear what these guys do. 

Mandos
/s


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

I tend to run situational games with greater or lesser levels of success.
The biggest factors in their success or failure are:
1. The players
2. The characters
3. How well the above two spark off each other and work together
4. How well you thought through the situation before presenting it
5. How well you present the situation to the players.

The main thing I have learned is to have a backup plan.  Some simple plot or plot-ettes that you
can throw to the players when the game starts floundering.

Situational games are rarely 'OK' either they work well and they're great, or they don't and then
they get pretty dire.
I've run some stinkers and I've run some that still make me smile when I think back on them.

Cheers, Stephen.

Mandos Mitchinson said:
>> Situation-driven games, you set up a situation and
>> motivations for NPCs, and provide an initial impetus for PCs,
>> and then manage the interaction being the different groups. I
>> find that I need to turn back to a plot-driven, linear
>> scenario for the last 2-3 weeks to end with a satisfying
>> bang. Developing and maintaining tension and pace is also
>> tricky. Also, sometimes the party stalls and flounders in the
>> middle as it all becomes too much, and there aren't obvious
>> ways through - developing techniques to lessen this problem
>> took me years and *too many* games to resolve.
>> For me, writing situation games takes
>> a completely different mindset than a plot-based game, and is
>> harder to get right, but much more fun as a GM when it works.
>
> Any hints on the techniques you developed? This is the kind of game I would like to run more of
> but at the moment I base things on a Plot driven game and let situational stuff develop on the
> fly as the
> Situational adventures seem to have impetus issues.
>
> Mandos
> /s
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting "Andrew Withy (DSL AK)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>:

> Generalising, you can have plot-driven games, situation-driven games,
> and PC-driven games (or different balances of these three).

What Andrew calls a situational game is more commonly called a character-driven
story. The other is called plot-driven. There is no equivalent in literature for
a PC driven story, unless you are talking about theatre sports.

>
> Plot-driven games are easiest to plan, and can be made more linear if a
> starting GM is overwhelmed, or less linear as required. Most games are
> plot-driven. Mandos's check-list works well for these.
>
> Situation-driven games, you set up a situation and motivations for NPCs,
> and provide an initial impetus for PCs, and then manage the interaction
> being the different groups. I find that I need to turn back to a
> plot-driven, linear scenario for the last 2-3 weeks to end with a
> satisfying bang. Developing and maintaining tension and pace is also
> tricky. Also, sometimes the party stalls and flounders in the middle as
> it all becomes too much, and there aren't obvious ways through -
> developing techniques to lessen this problem took me years and *too
> many* games to resolve. For me, writing situation games takes a
> completely different mindset than a plot-based game, and is harder to
> get right, but much more fun as a GM when it works.

Any of the stories that you read are a combination of both of these approaches.
A story that is not driven in any way by the desires of the characters is just
a list of events. A story that is entirely about the reactions of the
characters is just a description or internal monologue.

The combination is normally called a narrative.

If you are going to break these approaches down into techniques, then both of
them are invaluable. Tension and pace is generated by the plot, suspension of
disbelief and immersion by character reactions. A slavish adherence to the
seven point story arc will be as stultifying as not having any kind of sequence
at all.

> PC-driven games are really open-ended, and they are hardest to run
> because more general preparation is needed. They can do anything, go
> anywhere, and you don't know where they are coming from. Perhaps no game
> is truly 100% PC-driven, but all games should feel that way - i.e.
> little apparent constraints on their actions, except consequences.
> Situation-driven games are more PC-driven than most plot-based games.

If there is a hard and fast rule about this kind of thing, it is this: You
cannot have a story (in a roleplaying game) unless it involves the player
characters, and draws them into a sequence of actions to which the game reacts,
presenting the player characters with other opportunities for action.

I suppose it doesn't matter what the underlying architecture of your game is
like, so long as the players are convinced that they can do anything a person
with their abilities should be able to do, and that their actions choices are
constrained by the appropriate things but only to the appropriate degree.

If, in fact, you have worked out what the players are going to do, and have
planned for that contingency, then more power to you. But, my experience of
players is that they're almost entirely random, and some of them are more than
a little mad. I never expect them to do anything rational. Not that it helps.

Jim


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

IMHO quickness and slowness ain't broke and don't need fixing, leave them 
alone.

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
Check out the latest video  @  http://xtra.co.nz/streaming


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>The most-discussed topic of late has been due to a specifc issue of player
>boredom, and how to address it (via the rules, as that is the only 
>practical
>way).
>

Are all players bored, I'm not but then I don't have med-high characters 
like everyone who seems to be bitchin' about being bored.

Cowinkidink I think not

TTFN
Micheal

_________________________________________________________________
Need a new job? Check out XtraMSN Careers http://xtramsn.co.nz/careers


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Quoting Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>:

>
>
>
> >The most-discussed topic of late has been due to a specifc issue of player
> >boredom, and how to address it (via the rules, as that is the only
> >practical
> >way).
> >
>
> Are all players bored, I'm not but then I don't have med-high characters
> like everyone who seems to be bitchin' about being bored.
>
> Cowinkidink I think not

Of course it's not a coincidence. Where else would boredom start happening? It's
pretty unlikely to start happening at the low end of the game, is it?

What's your point? Stop development into the middle and high end of the game?
Pardon me, but I think I'll look for a solution somewhere else.

Jim.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

> Finally, it's just extremely hard to believe that you can hit with a
weapon so
> hard that it breaks with the kind of frequency they talk about. I'm sure
it
> might happen, particularly with poorly made weapons. I find it hard to
believe
> that it would happen in anything other than an exceptional situation.
>
> Jim.

You don't have to hit hard to brake weapons.
My sword broke weekend before last on a water melon. The blow was just hard
enough to split the melon and pulled enough not to hurt the hand holding it,
my other hand.
(Spliting a melon is a good stunt to remind people of how dangerous even a
blunt sword is. When it works properly :-))

Metal fatgue from years of use caused the brake, not the strenght of the
blow.

Poorly made weapons just fail faster, just like all poorly made tools.

Having cut my share of scrub with an axe, while strenght will give you a
deeper cut, the use of power with out control is more likely to result in an
axe in your foot, or some other damage to the frail human holding the haft
than to the axe.

Don't have the same sort of first hand knowledge with a sword as all my
blows are controled so as (try) not to leave a bruise. Its not consided
sporting to kill your oponent on the tourney field, not for about 400 years
or more. :-)

Helen


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>Would it be worth creating a new DQ emailing list, which people could join
>if they wished?
>
>The aim of the list is more along the lines of:
>'Aiming at improving and increasing the skills of GMs to empower them to run
>better and fun games'.

If you guys want such a list then I'll contact the system admin and 
get it organised.

What do you want to call it?

Keith


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>Is it really animal intelligence? I mean it can have all kinds of 
>skills. That seems to me to imply a limited sentience. No amount of 
>training even in DQ gives animals access to the skills a golem can have.

It doesn't to me. A golem, as far as I see it, is the fantasy 
equivalent of a robot - and a robot can be programmed to do what 
could be classed as 'skills'. However, that does not class the 
'robot' as having sentience.

Same with golems. The skills that they are given is what is 
programmed into them by their creators and that is all that they can 
do. As far as I'm aware, they cannot do anything outside their 
programming or advance in their skills.

Keith


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

------=_Part_8307_7681844.1138875991523
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

*nods* Maybe a robot is a better example than an animal but then again AI i=
s
a pretty common staple of science fiction with robots.
Dylan


On 2/2/06, Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> >Is it really animal intelligence? I mean it can have all kinds of
> >skills. That seems to me to imply a limited sentience. No amount of
> >training even in DQ gives animals access to the skills a golem can have.
>
> It doesn't to me. A golem, as far as I see it, is the fantasy
> equivalent of a robot - and a robot can be programmed to do what
> could be classed as 'skills'. However, that does not class the
> 'robot' as having sentience.
>
> Same with golems. The skills that they are given is what is
> programmed into them by their creators and that is all that they can
> do. As far as I'm aware, they cannot do anything outside their
> programming or advance in their skills.
>
> Keith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

------=_Part_8307_7681844.1138875991523
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<div>*nods* Maybe a robot is a better example than an animal but then again=
 AI is a pretty common staple of science fiction with robots.</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/2/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">K=
eith Smith</b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz">phaeton@ihug.co.nz=
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid"><br>&gt;Is it really animal inte=
lligence? I mean it can have all kinds of<br>&gt;skills. That seems to me t=
o imply a limited sentience. No amount of
<br>&gt;training even in DQ gives animals access to the skills a golem can =
have.<br><br>It doesn't to me. A golem, as far as I see it, is the fantasy<=
br>equivalent of a robot - and a robot can be programmed to do what<br>
could be classed as 'skills'. However, that does not class the<br>'robot' a=
s having sentience.<br><br>Same with golems. The skills that they are given=
 is what is<br>programmed into them by their creators and that is all that =
they can
<br>do. As far as I'm aware, they cannot do anything outside their<br>progr=
amming or advance in their skills.<br><br>Keith<br><br><br>-- to unsubscrib=
e notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf=
.org.nz
</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_8307_7681844.1138875991523--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

>To save future arguments, are you able to give a paper trail?
>
>Which Rulebook had the error introduced, and can you indicate a 
>correct version?

Binder 1.1 (the current version) was added in May 1997 into rulebook 
edition 1.1 printed that year.

I had to go right back to the original Binder 1.0 document which 
stated that Clay, Stone and Iron golems are mindless animates with 
auras equivalent to non-sentient undead. R&S and Flesh golems are 
listed as sentient entities with auras equivalent to "sentient undead".

>Without a confirmation vote, I'll only change the Rulebook on the 
>basis of strong evidence (e.g Rituals backfire on 30+ vs 40+ had 
>evidence in History of which was correct)
>
>Also, are the implications of MA:none vs MA:0 spelt out anywhere?

That I could not find quickly, not even in the old 3rd edition blue rulebook.

Keith


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --