Messages for 18 February 2006

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	Johanna and Hamish
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:31:00 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6347E.CB34DA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=92ve been pondering over the last few sessions about what creates the = game dynamics we experience in DQ. =20 This post has been prompted by the threads about GMing as an art and a science and to me about 60% of what makes a great game, the rules being = only about 10 =96 15%. =20 =20 It seems to me there are a wide range of forces interacting that create = the dynamics we experience as players =96 including many things the GM does = and doesn=92t do and also how the players interact with each other. =20 There are 3 areas I will raise specifically not with the intention to = say =91this is how we should do it=92, rather to engage dialogue if people = are interested. Since I have not GMed in DQ I will do this by referring to things I have experienced as a player. My intention is for us to get = some positive things from all of this. =20 The first area relates to the fast combat thread of a few weeks ago. I = have also been playing in Jono=92s game. What I noticed was that the GM = insisted we got into action quickly, on the first session the party employer introduced himself quickly told us we where already late, and by =BD way through the first session we where in a combat. Players had to play = their character in response to the situation because it was immediately = infront of us, there was not time to argue together, plan a lot, or suss everything out. =20 This had some consequences. The party seemed to form its self as a unit based on what skills and abilities players contributed to each other = during the rampant action. The party dynamic / relationship was based on what players contributed, not how well they could argue the rules, how loud = they where, how much everyone liked them, how long they had been playing, = etc. because of this players became valued for what they actually contributed = to the action =96 (action includes everything that players actually do =96 = as opposed to discussion and theorizing). =20 =20 Some players used to getting to talk a lot about tangential topics = during the action got quite confronted one player saying =93Oh my god I had no = idea high level games where so full on=94. While these players seemed shell shocked at first, they quite quickly got into the mode of staying = focused on the action and responding to it rather than talking about it or asking = the GM lots of questions to try and work out the best response. The GM = expected immediate response, =93I=92m doing this=94 if this was not forth coming = then the turn was lost, also unprepared numbers, e.g. defense, meant that the = enemy automatically hit etc. Players adjusted to this very quickly by = becoming more focused. =20 Later in the session the party operated like a well oiled machine is was = a joy to be part of a highly effective team dynamic. Some of the things I noticed where =96 Party members acted based on what they thought would = be best for the party and without a lot of discussion, when a party member took = a risky action, such as charging an enemy, they always had the support of = at least one other party member. There were very few long conversations = about what course to take, players where willing to listen to other opinions = and agree to a course of action they had not thought of themselves = relatively freely. There was a sense of generosity and acceptance of characters foibles. (GoK a notoriously chaotic character actually became a team player). =20 The party leader and mil-sci both contributed to this, the mil-sci let characters simply declare their actions only countermanding them when = their was something the party required the character to do which they had not = seen themselves (and this was very rear). Neither the party leader not the mil-sci told characters what they had to do, the flavour was much more collegial. Because the players where focused on the story/world/action there was no need for the party leader (or others) to try to control characters who where acting against the party interests. Also because mic-sci time out was the only time in combat to talk about what was happening these became extremely focused whith out a lot of unnecessary = talk =96 later in the session they became almost unnecessary. =20 =20 The second area is to do with player focus on action vs discussion and = fear of action. I need to declare that I really like a lot of action =96 not combat only, but things happening, characters acting =96 I have a low tolerance for hours of discussion unless it is really necessary and I suspect that all players are slightly different in this regard. =20 However another dynamic I wonder about in DQ is weather players are risk averse. This may explain why some parties seem to spend hours in = discussion before agreeing what to do. This may be a controversial idea, however = there are two areas. =20 =20 On the one hand a party that spends hours coming up with the perfect = plan then, unintentionally, put a lot of pressure on the GM to have the plan work. Such plans are often based on incomplete situation knowledge and = thus it is never really possible to have a perfect plan. However every time = I have been in a party which has spent hours creating a perfect plan it = has succeed =96 even though there where many things the parties did not = know, they all turned out to be exactly as we decided they probably where and thus = had planed for. =20 =20 On the other hand I think it is very easy for GM=92s intentionally or unintentionally to punish players that take action (some might call it = risky action). By this I mean that immediate action fails and results in catastrophic damage to the character or party. The result - over time players try to work everything out before acting, an impossible task = which results in the discussion rather than action dynamic. =20 =20 An unintended consequence of lots of discussion is that the players that find this boring as all heck tend to act-out doing stupid things to = relieve boredom and then requiring the other party members to act in response to them rather than the plot/world. Perhaps because there is risk = aversion, the response is often to control the acting out party member in some way = =96 another response would be to join them making the action more likely to succeed and by valuing the characters action making them more likely to = act responsibly in the future, or for a more experience character to educate = or mentor them. =20 =20 I think there is a big GM challenge in facilitating action oriented = parties. The GM has to respond to a fast moving pace judging how to respond to characters as they do things, they have to stay clear about how a number = of NPC=92s and the world generally should respond, both to be believable to = the players and to keep creating an environment that challenges and = stimulates the characters =96 being neither too easy (heroics gone mad), nor to devastating (causing the plan it all out response). =20 =20 The final thing is regarding treasure and character life span. I notice = now it is a different topic so I=92ll put it on a different post. =20 Cheers Hamish =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Hamish Brown Director =20 Zenergy Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world 119 Mt Eden Rd, Auckland www.zenergyglobal.com=20 =20 _____ =20 From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Errol Cavit Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:45 AM To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather =20 The new values are at =20 http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pending_Rule_Changes#Weath= er_ Scale_Table -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Withy (DSL AK) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 08:41 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather I'm hoping that Michael's comments apply to the current, broken table, = not the version it is being replaced with, which is supposed to reduce the rainfall amount? =20 Otherwise, I completely agree with Michael. =20 Andrew -----Original Message----- From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of mhyoung Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 1:44 a.m. To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz Subject: Re: [dq] {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather Well given the greatest rainfall is 73.62 inches in 24 hours I think the inches per hour could use a look at. This is 7,435 tons per acre. Must = make some sort of dent on a mole hill....... =20 Divide them all by 2 and make it inches per 24 hours or something. If = you round up to make it a multiple of 12, you end up with 8 inches per hour = at Scale 12, 4 per hour at 11, 2 per hour at 10, 1 per hour at 9, 1/2 an = inch per hour at 8, 1/4 at 7, 1/8 at 6, 1/16 at 5 and <=3D 4, its not = raining. =20 I have an idea there is another weather table about somewhere. Ask Jono. =20 I would remove the sentence "This ritual cannot backfire." Theres not = enough backfires in the game. =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6347E.CB34DA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Diso-8859-1"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--> <title>Message</title> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"State"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"Street"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"address"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"PersonName"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- / Font Definitions / @font-face {font-family:Tahoma; panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:"Book Antiqua"; panose-1:2 4 6 2 5 3 5 3 3 4;} / Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I’ve been pondering over the = last few sessions about what creates the game dynamics we experience in = DQ.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This post has been prompted by the = threads about GMing as an art and a science and to me about 60% of what makes a = great game, the rules being only about 10 – 15%.=A0 = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It seems to me there are a wide = range of forces interacting that create the dynamics we experience as players = – including many things the GM does and doesn’t do and also how the = players interact with each other.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>There are 3 areas I will raise specifically not with the intention to say ‘this is how we should = do it’, rather to engage dialogue if people are interested.=A0 Since I have not = GMed in DQ I will do this by referring to things I have experienced as a = player.=A0 My intention is for us to get some positive things from all of = this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The first area relates to the fast = combat thread of a few weeks ago.=A0 I have also been playing in Jono’s = game.=A0 What I noticed was that the GM insisted we got into action quickly, on = the first session the party employer introduced himself quickly told us we = where already late, and by =BD way through the first session we where in a = combat.=A0 Players had to play their character in response to the situation because it was = immediately infront of us, there was not time to argue together, plan a lot, or suss = everything out.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>This had some consequences.=A0 The = party seemed to form its self as a unit based on what skills and abilities = players contributed to each other during the rampant action.=A0 The party = dynamic / relationship was based on what players contributed, not how well they = could argue the rules, how loud they where, how much everyone liked them, how = long they had been playing, etc.=A0 because of this players became valued for = what they actually contributed to the action – (action includes = everything that players actually do – as opposed to discussion and = theorizing).=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Some players used to getting to = talk a lot about tangential topics during the action got quite confronted one = player saying “Oh my god I had no idea high level games where so full = on”.=A0 While these players seemed shell shocked at first, they quite quickly = got into the mode of staying focused on the action and responding to it rather = than talking about it or asking the GM lots of questions to try and work out = the best response.=A0 The GM expected immediate response, “I’m = doing this” if this was not forth coming then the turn was lost, also unprepared = numbers, e.g. defense, meant that the enemy automatically hit etc. =A0Players adjusted = to this very quickly by becoming more focused.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Later in the session the party = operated like a well oiled machine is was a joy to be part of a highly effective = team dynamic.=A0 Some of the things I noticed where – Party members = acted based on what they thought would be best for the party and without a lot of discussion, when a party member took a risky action, such as charging an = enemy, they always had the support of at least one other party member.=A0 There = were very few long conversations about what course to take, players where = willing to listen to other opinions and agree to a course of action they had not = thought of themselves relatively freely. =A0There was a sense of generosity and = acceptance of characters foibles.=A0 (GoK a notoriously chaotic character actually = became a team player).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The party leader and mil-sci both contributed to this, the mil-sci let characters simply declare their = actions only countermanding them when their was something the party required the character to do which they had not seen themselves (and this was very = rear).=A0 Neither the party leader not the mil-sci told characters what they had to do, = the flavour was much more collegial.=A0 Because the players where focused on = the story/world/action there was no need for the party leader (or others) to = try to control characters who where acting against the party interests.=A0 Also = because mic-sci time out was the only time in combat to talk about what was = happening these became extremely focused whith out a lot of unnecessary talk = – later in the session they became almost unnecessary.=A0 = =A0=A0=A0=A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The second area is to do with = player focus on action vs discussion and fear of action.=A0 I need to declare that I = really like a lot of action – not combat only, but things happening, = characters acting – I have a low tolerance for hours of discussion unless it = is really necessary and I suspect that all players are slightly different = in this regard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>However another dynamic I wonder = about in DQ is weather players are risk averse.=A0 This may explain why some = parties seem to spend hours in discussion before agreeing what to do.=A0 This may be = a controversial idea, however there are two areas.=A0 = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>On the one hand a party that spends = hours coming up with the perfect plan then, unintentionally, put a lot of = pressure on the GM to have the plan work.=A0 Such plans are often based on = incomplete situation knowledge and thus it is never really possible to have a perfect = plan.=A0 However every time I have been in a party which has spent hours creating a = perfect plan it has succeed – even though there where many things the parties = did not know, they all turned out to be exactly as we decided they probably = where and thus had planed for.=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>On the other hand I think it is = very easy for GM’s intentionally or unintentionally to punish players that = take action (some might call it risky action).=A0 By this I mean that = immediate action fails and results in catastrophic damage to the character or party.=A0 = The result - over time players try to work everything out before acting, an = impossible task which results in the discussion rather than action dynamic. = =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>An unintended consequence of lots = of discussion is that the players that find this boring as all heck tend to = act-out doing stupid things to relieve boredom and then requiring the other = party members to act in response to them rather than the plot/world.=A0 Perhaps = because there is risk aversion, the response is often to control the acting out party = member in some way – another response would be to join them making the = action more likely to succeed and by valuing the characters action making them = more likely to act responsibly in the future, or for a more experience character to = educate or mentor them. =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think there is a big GM challenge = in facilitating action oriented parties.=A0 The GM has to respond to a fast = moving pace judging how to respond to characters as they do things, they have = to stay clear about how a number of NPC’s and the world generally should = respond, both to be believable to the players and to keep creating an environment = that challenges and stimulates the characters – being neither too easy (heroics gone mad), nor to devastating (causing the plan it all out = response).=A0 <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The = final thing is regarding treasure and character life span.=A0 I notice now it is a = different topic so I’ll put it on a different = post.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cheers = Hamish<font color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> = =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></= font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>=A0 = =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = =A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>=A0=A0=A0=A0<o:p></o:p></span></font= ></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>=A0 = =A0=A0=A0=A0<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Hamish = Brown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'>Director<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D4 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'>Zenergy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Whole = People Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: "Book Antiqua";color:black'>119 Mt Eden = Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: "Book = Antiqua";color:black'>Auckland</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:black'>www.zenergyglobal.com <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font = size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1> </span></font></div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span = style=3D'font-weight: bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, February = 15, 2006 8:45 AM<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName = w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] = {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The new values are = at</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><a href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pending_Rule_Chang= es#Weather_Scale_Table">http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Pe= nding_Rule_Changes#Weather_Scale_Table</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Andrew Withy = (<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:City w:st=3D"on">DSL</st1:City> <st1:State = w:st=3D"on">AK</st1:State></st1:place>) [mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz]<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 15 = February 2006 08:41<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName = w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] = {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'm hoping that Michael's comments = apply to the current, broken table, not the version it is being replaced with, = which is supposed to reduce the rainfall amount?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Otherwise, I completely agree with = Michael.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Andrew</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 = face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original = Message-----<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> = dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On = Behalf Of </span></b>mhyoung<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 15 = February 2006 1:44 a.m.<br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName = w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] = {Rulebook} The Weather Table again and Control Weather</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Well given the greatest rainfall is 73.62 inches = in <strong><b><font face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-family:Arial'>24 hours = </span></font></b></strong>I think the inches per hour could use a look at. This is 7,435 tons per = acre. Must make some sort of dent on a mole = hill.......</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Divide them all by 2 and make it inches per 24 hours = or something. If you round up to make it a multiple of 12, you end up with = 8 inches per hour at Scale 12, 4 per hour at 11, 2 per hour at 10, 1 per = hour at 9, 1/2 an inch per hour at 8, 1/4 at 7, 1/8 at 6, 1/16 at 5 and <=3D = 4, its not raining.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>I have an idea there is another weather table about somewhere. Ask Jono.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>I would remove the sentence "This ritual cannot backfire." Theres not enough backfires in the = game.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C6347E.CB34DA00-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics Treasure/life span
From	Johanna and Hamish
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:11:53 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63484.8172CE30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Regarding treasure and character life span. Over time I have heard various GM's proudly proclaiming that they are very stingy when it comes to giving out treasure. Another (perhaps related) dynamic is characters getting items which, on their own, change the nature and power of the character. I think there may be a treasure giving / not giving vicious cycle going on. It might go like this. Some GM's worried about character life span and the abundance of magic items stop giving out many magic items. Other GM's worried about slow character advancement/boredom and an inability for a particular character to individualise itself with unusual abilities give out major items which change/advance the character. The first group see this and become even more convinced that they should not give out many magic items/treasure. And so it goes on. Eventually of cause some GM's are known as too generous and others too stingy - and each is convinced they are right in their approach. The thing is that if items are more freely available players are more inclined to use their gold brick one off items. This means that when the party is in a sticky life threatening situation rather than the GM having to fudge what is going on to stop the party all being killed, the party will sort it out themselves by using their special one off items. Knowing that they are not too hard to come by makes this easier / more likely. This approach assists the action oriented party a lot, which is encouraged to enter more freely into the dangerous world, rather than stingily holding onto their gold bricks for that really special occasion. Also if a GM knows that a party has a few gold bricks they can more freely put them in life threatening situations - creating more fear and enjoyment. Solutions - powerful items sometimes have a life span say two years. Items are designed to increase X a bit, creating smooth development over time (e.g. an item that gives +5 -10% MR against the elemental collages) - this only works if many GM's have this approach, otherwise Bob gets +5% from one GM while Jill gets a +50% one off special item from another. More one off gold brick items with a life span e.g. 2 years are given out. Collectively we give up on the idea that characters will be able to play frequently after about 10 years (or keep playing forever) - perhaps only going out on world destroying missions once every 2 or 3 years, otherwise semi-retired. We are not very good at death in NZ. I often find in working with organisations that the best thing would be for the people involved to stop what they are doing and start something different, people are very reluctant to do this I think we like the certainty of what we know. Rather than trying to make the rules fit a longer and longer character life span we collectively accept that after a certain point we start a new character. This takes away the pressure on the rules and the pressure not to give out too many items. It also has the added benefit of keeping the game fresh and action oriented. Cheer H Hamish Brown Director Zenergy Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world 119 Mt Eden Rd, Auckland www.zenergyglobal.com ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63484.8172CE30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <title>Message</title> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"Street"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"address"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"City"/> <o:SmartTagType = namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name=3D"place"/> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!-- / Font Definitions / @font-face {font-family:"Book Antiqua"; panose-1:2 4 6 2 5 3 5 3 3 4;} / Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle18 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; font-family:Arial; color:navy;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> </head> <body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Regarding treasure and character life span.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Over = time I have heard various GM’s proudly proclaiming that they are very stingy = when it comes to giving out treasure.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Another = (perhaps related) dynamic is characters getting items which, on their own, change the = nature and power of the character.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I think = there may be a treasure giving / not giving vicious cycle going on.  It might = go like this.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some = GM’s worried about character life span and the abundance of magic items stop = giving out many magic items.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Other = GM’s worried about slow character advancement/boredom and an inability for a particular character to individualise itself with = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>unusual abilities give out major items which = change/advance the character.  The first group see this and become even more = convinced that they should not give out many magic items/treasure. And so it goes = on.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Eventually of cause some GM’s are known as too = generous and others too stingy - and each is convinced they are right in their = approach.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>The thing is that if items are more freely available = players are more inclined to use their gold brick one off items.  This = means that when the party is in a sticky life threatening situation rather than the = GM having to fudge what is going on to stop the party all being killed, the = party will sort it out themselves by using their special one off items. Knowing = that they are not too hard to come by makes this easier / more likely.  = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>This approach assists the action oriented party a = lot, which is encouraged to enter more freely into the dangerous world, rather than = stingily holding onto their gold bricks for that really special occasion.  = Also if a GM knows that a party has a few gold bricks they can more freely put = them in life threatening situations – creating more fear and enjoyment. =    <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Solutions – powerful items sometimes have a = life span say two years. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Items are designed to increase X a bit, creating = smooth development over time (e.g. an item that gives +5 -10% MR against the = elemental collages) – this only works if many GM’s have this approach, otherwise Bob gets +5% from one GM while Jill gets a +50% one off = special item from another.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>More one off gold brick items with a life span e.g. 2 = years are given out.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Collectively we give up on the idea that characters = will be able to play frequently after about 10 years (or keep playing forever) - = perhaps only going out on world destroying missions once every 2 or 3 years, = otherwise semi-retired.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>We are not very good at death in NZ.  I often = find in working with organisations that the best thing would be for the people = involved to stop what they are doing and start something different, people are = very reluctant to do this I think we like the certainty of what we = know.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Rather than trying to make the rules fit a longer and = longer character life span we collectively accept that after a certain point we = start a new character.  This takes away the pressure on the rules and the pressure not to give out too many items.  It also has the added = benefit of keeping the game fresh and action oriented.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>Cheer H =     <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial'>   <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>   <o:p></o:p= ></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.5in'><font = size=3D2 face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></fo= nt></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Hamish = Brown<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'>Director<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D4 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:blue'>Zenergy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Whole = People Co-operating in a Sustainable world<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address = w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: "Book Antiqua";color:black'>119 Mt Eden = Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'>,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font = size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family: "Book = Antiqua";color:black'>Auckland</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoAutoSig><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Book = Antiqua"><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Book = Antiqua";color:black'>www.zenergyglobal.com <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'= > <blockquote = style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span = style=3D'font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </blockquote> </blockquote> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01C63484.8172CE30-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	Mandos Mitchinson
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:41:51 +1300
> It seems to me there are a wide range of forces interacting that create the dynamics > we experience as players � including many things the GM does and doesn�t do and also > how the players interact with each other. Very good post. Lots of interesting details, but I think you miss one vital point. Action oriented games are great but they are focussed on action oriented players playing action oriented characters, which is great if everyone is. But we arn't. I would probably guess that the guild is split pretty evenly amongst the action 'gamer' style of player and the story focussed 'roleplayer' style, with a reasonable amount of crossover between the two. We also have a few power gamers and munchkins just to mix things up but the majority would be in the gamer/roleplayer camps. The gamer style players like the action to flow, the story to roll out in front of them and for the waffle to be minimised, a good rolicking adventure with plenty of pace and a god climactic finish. Roleplayers tend to be happy with a slower meandering adventure with lots of in character waffle and a vague direction so that there is a point to all the chatter. What works for one doesn't work for others, which is one of the reasons cliques form. People like to play with people who like the same kind of games, with Gm's who run that kind of game. Most players would be a mix of the two styles as well so I am for example about 60% roleplayer and 40% gamer. I like a nice action oriented adventure now and then but I also like sitting around and waffling in character alot. Faced with the games you described in your Email I will only get 40% of the possible enjoyment out of the game. Some people are more heavily into one direction, a number of players out there get very frustrated when the party is waffling and wandering aimlessly simply soaking in the atmosphere and having a bit of a laugh, while others get dragged along at a breakneck pace and get tired of the combat and the planning. Basically what it boils down to is that there are many styles of play and most GM's should probably be aware of what style of adventure their players are looking for and aim for something that is going to make most people happy. Players should try out as many different GM's as possible to find the ones that play the kind of games they like. This also affect player lifespan, characters that go for the action and adventure will tend to gain power, items etc faster than those that don't. They will rank things to be tough and competant. All of which is great, but it pushes th inflation rate in the game building the pressures you mentioned. Engleton is a classis example. Jono likes an action focussed game, he likes the teamwork focus and the well oiled machine feeling of a team working together. As such he worked with a few others to create a team that worked very well together, and they did, doing tougher and tougher things all the time, gaining items and Ep at a phenomenal rate. Now those characters are effectivly outside the game of DQ being so tough and so extreme that they are in their own catagory, like playing Superheros in a normal world. Other character of the same age have pottered around, ranked sloppily, not bothered with items and while being the same age as Engleton are barely up to high. My point with all this is that both directions and actions are fine, Jono seems pretty happy and enjoying playing Engleton and players like Ben seem pretty happy playing Haann who is solidly medium yet was first played only a few sessions after Engleton. The direction your Email describes is good but only for some of our players and it is important to ensure we have a diverse collection of GM's and games to cater for just about everyone, even the munchkins :-) Mandos /s -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	[dq] Curses from the Other Side
From	Michael Scott
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:54:55 +1300
In the Seagate Adventurers Guild waiting room in Purgatory a charred spirit resembling Human the Fool moans to anyone who will listen. "Damn it! Gakked again, this makes three times. Stupid bloody save or die spells, how was I to know the bastard had Whitefire as well as Blackfire when I tuanted him, stinking celestials.' 'I really wish they'd change the magazines up here this seagate times is five years old." His monkey having been killed the week before kicks him in the shins and walks into the light in disgust. TTFN Michael _________________________________________________________________ Shop �til you drop at XtraMSN Shopping http://shopping.xtramsn.co.nz/home/ -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	Johanna and Hamish
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:12:36 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C634A6.23926510 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Action oriented games are great but they are focussed on action oriented players playing action oriented characters, which is great if everyone is. But we arn't. I would probably guess that the guild is split pretty evenly amongst the action 'gamer' style of player and the story focussed 'roleplayer' style, with a reasonable amount of crossover between the two. We also have a few power gamers and munchkins just to mix things up but the majority would be in the gamer/roleplayer camps. The gamer style players like the action to flow, the story to roll out in front of them and for the waffle to be minimised, a good rolicking adventure with plenty of pace and a god climactic finish. Roleplayers tend to be happy with a slower meandering adventure with lots of in character waffle and a vague direction so that there is a point to all the chatter. What works for one doesn't work for others, which is one of the reasons cliques form. People like to play with people who like the same kind of games, with Gm's who run that kind of game. Most players would be a mix of the two styles as well so I am for example about 60% roleplayer and 40% gamer. I like a nice action oriented adventure now and then but I also like sitting around and waffling in character alot. Faced with the games you described in your Email I will only get 40% of the possible enjoyment out of the game. Some people are more heavily into one direction, a number of players out there get very frustrated when the party is waffling and wandering aimlessly simply soaking in the atmosphere and having a bit of a laugh, while others get dragged along at a breakneck pace and get tired of the combat and the planning. Basically what it boils down to is that there are many styles of play and most GM's should probably be aware of what style of adventure their players are looking for and aim for something that is going to make most people happy. Players should try out as many different GM's as possible to find the ones that play the kind of games they like. I agree with this, it is necessary to provide games which meet all the different kinds of players. I think the things I am saying do not contradict this sentiment which I agree with. (perhaps it might be helpful for GM's to present their adventure as heroic / high fantasy or problem solving / high interaction along side saying weather high, med, or low.) By action I do not mean combats all the time - or clear plot which just has to be pursued through a number of obstacles to the climatic end point, though I don't mind these games. What I am suggesting by action is where players are focused on the world, each other and the objective. Players interacting together and taking in / interacting with the atmosphere is a kind of action. However players are sometimes in the situation were a richer game world would keep the action happening as they interacted with it or responded to it. I think the thing for GM's to notice is the kind of action / interaction that is happening and consider what, in the game world I am providing, is creating this. For example I think there are probably indicators that the characters need things to move at a faster pace. E.g. when players start going on about how tuff they are or comparing themselves to each other (a kind on in character communication which I think sets up un-fun dynamics) I think the GM could hear this something like "I want an opportunity to prove to the party that I am tuff and useful". And thus provide some opportunities. I think there are probably many other kinds of indicators for other things also. I also think I am on dodgy ground since I might be perceived as criticizing GM's when I am not GMing myself - this is not my intention - in fact I think players are as responsible for the party dynamics as GM's though perhaps less able to influence them. Hamish ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C634A6.23926510 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"> <meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 77.95pt 1.0in 77.95pt;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> </head> <body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple> <div class=3DSection1> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Action oriented games are great but they are focussed on action oriented<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>players playing action oriented characters, which is great if = everyone is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>But we arn't.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>I would probably guess that the guild is split pretty evenly = amongst the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>action 'gamer' style of player and the story focussed = 'roleplayer' style,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>with a reasonable amount of crossover between the two. We also = have a few<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>power gamers and munchkins just to mix things up but the = majority would be<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>in the gamer/roleplayer camps.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>The gamer style players like the action to flow, the story to = roll out in<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>front of them and for the waffle to be minimised, a good = rolicking adventure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>with plenty of pace and a god climactic = finish.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Roleplayers tend to be happy with a slower meandering adventure = with lots of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>in character waffle and a vague direction so that there is a = point to all<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>the chatter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>What works for one doesn't work for others, which is one of the = reasons<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>cliques form. People like to play with people who like the same = kind of<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>games, with Gm's who run that kind of = game.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Most players would be a mix of the two styles as well so I am = for example<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>about 60% roleplayer and 40% gamer. I like a nice action = oriented adventure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>now and then but I also like sitting around and waffling in = character alot.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Faced with the games you described in your Email I will only get = 40% of the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>possible enjoyment out of the game.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Some people are more heavily into one direction, a number of = players out<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>there get very frustrated when the party is waffling and = wandering aimlessly<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>simply soaking in the atmosphere and having a bit of a laugh, = while others<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>get dragged along at a breakneck pace and get tired of the = combat and the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>planning.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>Basically what it boils down to is that there are many styles of = play and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>most GM's should probably be aware of what style of adventure = their players<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>are looking for and aim for something that is going to make most = people<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>happy. Players should try out as many different GM's as possible = to find the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'>ones that play the kind of games they = like.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I agree with = this, it is necessary to provide games which meet all the different kinds of = players.  I think the things I am saying do not contradict this sentiment which I = agree with.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>(perhaps it = might be helpful for GM’s to  present their adventure as heroic / high fantasy or problem solving / high interaction along side saying weather = high, med, or low.) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>By action I do = not mean combats all the time – or clear plot which just has to be pursued = through a number of obstacles to the climatic end point, though I don’t = mind these games.  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>What I am = suggesting by action is where players are focused on the world, each other and the = objective.  Players interacting together and taking in / interacting with the = atmosphere is a kind of action.  However players are sometimes in the situation = were a richer game world would keep the action happening as they interacted = with it or responded to it.  I think the thing for GM’s to notice is the = kind of action / interaction that is happening and consider what, in the game = world I am providing, is creating this. =     <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>For example I = think there are probably indicators that the characters need things to move at a = faster pace.  E.g. when players start going on about how tuff they are or = comparing themselves to each other (a kind on in character communication which I = think sets up un-fun dynamics) I think the GM could hear this something like = “I want an opportunity to prove to the party that I am tuff and = useful”.  And thus provide some opportunities.  I think there are probably = many other kinds of indicators for other things also. = <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I also think I = am on dodgy ground since I might be perceived as criticizing GM’s when I = am not GMing myself - this is not my intention – in fact I think players = are as responsible for the party dynamics as GM’s though perhaps less = able to influence them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Hamish<o:p></o:p>= </span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'>  =             <= o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Courier = New"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>= <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span = style=3D'font-size: 10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html> ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C634A6.23926510-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:49:40 +1300
Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <mandos@allowed.to>: > > It seems to me there are a wide range of forces interacting that create > the dynamics > > we experience as players � including many things the GM does and doesn�t > do and also > > how the players interact with each other. > > Very good post. Lots of interesting details, but I think you miss one vital > point. > > Action oriented games are great but they are focussed on action oriented > players playing action oriented characters, which is great if everyone is. > But we arn't. No, he doesn't miss the point out. He mentions that he prefers action, and that he is making comments from that perspective. > > I would probably guess that the guild is split pretty evenly amongst the > action 'gamer' style of player and the story focussed 'roleplayer' style, > with a reasonable amount of crossover between the two. We also have a few > power gamers and munchkins just to mix things up but the majority would be > in the gamer/roleplayer camps. A story-focused role player will be what you call an 'action gamer'. Story is the development of character in the face of an unfolding event or events. Role playing games are story-telling events where there is interactive dialog between players and the DM. The 'action gamer' has become involved in the story and is expressing their character's nature. Story is the way a character changes in response to, in our case, stimulus from the DM. Two dimensional characters are created when their properties and responses are delivered rather than played. Three dimensionality is a function of interacting. Players who tell everyone about the inner turmoil of their characters are a lot like the pages of introspection you get in Dickensian novels where he lists the kinds of torment they're going through. This may have worked for Victorian readers, but I doubt it. It certainly doesn't work for modern readers. > > The gamer style players like the action to flow, the story to roll out in > front of them and for the waffle to be minimised, a good rolicking adventure > with plenty of pace and a god climactic finish. What kind of story did you think you were supposed to be telling, George? A Joycean Stream-of-Consciousness novel? The form is constrained by the demands of the media. > > Roleplayers tend to be happy with a slower meandering adventure with lots of > in character waffle and a vague direction so that there is a point to all > the chatter. There might be a point to it, but it's got nothing to do with the revelation of story. I misdoubt me not that it is almost entirely an attempt to slow the action down, reducing the tension to the manageable. Concomitantly, sucking the drama out of the game. > > What works for one doesn't work for others, which is one of the reasons > cliques form. People like to play with people who like the same kind of > games, with Gm's who run that kind of game. I don't think so. Look at the cliques you see. They're not made up of people who come together because they prefer the same kind of game. They're usually made up of people that they came into the game with. If anything, the style of gaming responds to the aggregate of what the clique is happy playing, not the other way around. > > Most players would be a mix of the two styles as well so I am for example > about 60% roleplayer and 40% gamer. I like a nice action oriented adventure > now and then but I also like sitting around and waffling in character alot. > Faced with the games you described in your Email I will only get 40% of the > possible enjoyment out of the game. I don't believe the people George calls role players are, in fact, playing roles. Their characterisation is so poor they'd have difficulty playing a triangle. In my experience, they spend an awful lot of time expalaining why they're not going to do anything that might even by accident engage the story. > > Some people are more heavily into one direction, a number of players out > there get very frustrated when the party is waffling and wandering aimlessly > simply soaking in the atmosphere and having a bit of a laugh, while others > get dragged along at a breakneck pace and get tired of the combat and the > planning. > > Basically what it boils down to is that there are many styles of play and > most GM's should probably be aware of what style of adventure their players > are looking for and aim for something that is going to make most people > happy. Players should try out as many different GM's as possible to find the > ones that play the kind of games they like. > > This also affect player lifespan, characters that go for the action and > adventure will tend to gain power, items etc faster than those that don't. > They will rank things to be tough and competant. All of which is great, but > it pushes th inflation rate in the game building the pressures you > mentioned. Engleton is a classis example. Jono likes an action focussed > game, he likes the teamwork focus and the well oiled machine feeling of a > team working together. As such he worked with a few others to create a team > that worked very well together, and they did, doing tougher and tougher > things all the time, gaining items and Ep at a phenomenal rate. Now those > characters are effectivly outside the game of DQ being so tough and so > extreme that they are in their own catagory, like playing Superheros in a > normal world. Other character of the same age have pottered around, ranked > sloppily, not bothered with items and while being the same age as Engleton > are barely up to high. > > My point with all this is that both directions and actions are fine, Jono > seems pretty happy and enjoying playing Engleton and players like Ben seem > pretty happy playing Haann who is solidly medium yet was first played only a > few sessions after Engleton. > > The direction your Email describes is good but only for some of our players > and it is important to ensure we have a diverse collection of GM's and games > to cater for just about everyone, even the munchkins :-) I am trying to be charitable here. Okay, I give up, I'm not good at charity. George, face it, some games are just good, and some are a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME. The kind of game where the players sit around and explain the intimate goings on in their character's rich and varied inner lives are the ones where most people nod off. Or leave so that they can spend more time with their lint collection. Your concerns about inflation are, by and large, your own worry. I don't think there is a real basis for it. Inflation, where it happens in the game, is not an issue when it is a single character or even a group. It is a problem when the game engine cannot produce enough threat that you have to go outside of the game to engineer it. But, player characters exist outside of the game. They start out as abiding by the rules, and every iteration of their development takes them further and further afield, as they acquire individuation upon individuation. That is a natural progression, and happens regardless of the game. It is a function of the story element of roleplaying. Being a good DM isn't much about rules. It is about knowing how to engineer tension and drama, how to create situations where players are forced to make real decisions, decisions that reveal the nature of the character to the rest of the group. It's about taking an active hand in the development of a player character, so that that character reflects something special and different which makes the game more rewarding and engaging. To a large extent, a good DM won't put the rule book aside. They will fling it away with great force. The top end of the game is not broken because the rules don't work so well at that point. They have never worked there. That's not to say that players shouldn't exist in that niche. That's just a neurotic devotion to the rules speaking. Jim. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:56:02 +1300
Quoting Johanna and Hamish <perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz>: > > I also think I am on dodgy ground since I might be perceived as criticizing > GM's when I am not GMing myself - this is not my intention - in fact I think > players are as responsible for the party dynamics as GM's though perhaps > less able to influence them. Criticise away. It's not like the Guild is filled with any surfeit of good'uns. The average is a very poor showing. Having said that, there's no reason for you not to be running a game, and it is clear to me that is only laziness preventing you from doing something about it. I look forward to the advertisement of your next game. There will be consequences I do not seem some evidence of it. Jim. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:00:04 +1300
> Having said that, there's no reason for you not to be running a game, and it is > clear to me that is only laziness preventing you from doing something about it. Seems a little harsh, Jim, as some may not see the evil grin spreading across your face... You may find time or priorities could be more of an impediament than application. I am certain Hamish will announce when he is able to... :-D Ian > > I look forward to the advertisement of your next game. There will be > consequences I do not seem some evidence of it. > > Jim. > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Game dynamics
From	raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:04:44 +1300
Quoting dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz: > > Having said that, there's no reason for you not to be running a game, and > it is > > clear to me that is only laziness preventing you from doing something about > it. > > Seems a little harsh, Jim, as some may not see the evil grin spreading across > your face... You may find time or priorities could be more of an impediament > than application. I am certain Hamish will announce when he is able to... :-D I'm not grinning. That might reveal the fangs. Jim. -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Problems with spam
From	Keith Smith
Date	Sat, 18 Feb 2006 22:09:25 +1300
>while the vast majority of my spam gets to me via more normal means. >I get the occasional piece to > > clare.west@dq.sf.org.nz > >I may well have been aware of this address being set up, but I >really have no recollection of it at all. Who do I see about getting >this address deleted, I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure everyone has an address <firstname>.<lastname>@dq.sf.org.nz It's an alternate address that's pointed to the real one so it can be used if the proper one is unknown. Why you're getting spam on it, if no one knows it's there, is really weird. I've forwarded your message to the sysadm so he can sort it out Keith -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --