SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromRPer 4eva
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 00:07:15 +1300
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I'm just curious. Is there any reason a race that has a few mages must have
a language going up to rank 8? Couldn't those mages have been trained to
rank 8 in common or any other language that goes that high? This would allo=
w
for the rare troll shaman etc.
Dylan


On 2/21/06, raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz <raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> Quoting Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> > >Reply-To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > >To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > >Subject: Re: [dq] Languages
> > >Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:00:04 +1300
> > >
> > >Quoting Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com>:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Are not the ranks be a reflection of understanding an alien culture=
.
> > > > It may simply be that we humans (or dwarves, or elves etc) are not
> > > > phyiscally capible of comunicating at rk 10 in a language you need
> gills
> > >to
> > > > proberly pronounce.
> > > >
> > >There are deaf people whose language skills are highly polished.
> >
> > And yet they proberly would have a hard time making people who can not
> sign
> > understand them espeacally if there hand gestures are different. The
> problem
> > would be with the person recieving the message as much as the one tryin=
g
> to
> > make him/herself understood.
>
> No, I didn't mean the use of sign, which most people consider a separate
> language, or at least a creole. I meant that there ability to understand
> and
> use an oral language. Just because you're deaf doesn't mean you can't
> learn to
> speak one or to understand what others mean when they use one.
>
> I've no doubt it's more difficult, 'though.
>
> >
> > At the end of the day it is a fantasy game and we can only come so clos=
e
> to
> > reality before it becomes unplayable. As a sword fighter I can see many
> > unrealistic parts to the weapons and combat in the game but understand
> > conseesions must be made to ensure playability and fairness.
> >
> > Susgestions on making the game more realistic are fine as long as they
> > enhance the fun and don't screw the system.
>
> Varying ranks for languages based on some weird notion that some language
> is
> more or less capable of expressing 'elevated' concepts are crap. Language
> is at
> the root of the way we play the game, because ultimately it's about the
> way the
> information reaches the player from the DM.
>
> Jim
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>I'm just curious. Is there any reason a race that has a few mages must=
 have a language going up to rank 8? Couldn't those mages have been trained=
 to rank 8 in common or any other language that goes that high? This would =
allow for the rare troll shaman etc.
</div>
<div>Dylan<br><br>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"gmail_quote">On 2/21/06, <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">=
<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a><=
/b> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac=
.nz
</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Quoting Michael Scott &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><br>=
&gt;
<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &gt;From: <a href=3D"mailto:raro002@ec.auckland.ac=
.nz">raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</a><br>&gt; &gt;Reply-To: <a href=3D"mailto:=
dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>&gt; &gt;To: <a href=3D"mailto:dq@d=
q.sf.org.nz">
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>&gt; &gt;Subject: Re: [dq] Languages<br>&gt; &gt;Dat=
e: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:00:04 +1300<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt;Quoting Michael=
 Scott &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com">big_mac_kd@hotmail.com
</a>&gt;:<br>&gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Are not the rank=
s be a reflection of understanding an alien culture.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; It m=
ay simply be that we humans (or dwarves, or elves etc) are not<br>&gt; &gt;=
 &gt; phyiscally capible of comunicating at rk 10 in a language you need gi=
lls
<br>&gt; &gt;to<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; proberly pronounce.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt; &gt;There are deaf people whose language skills are highly polished.<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt; And yet they proberly would have a hard time making people w=
ho can not sign
<br>&gt; understand them espeacally if there hand gestures are different. T=
he problem<br>&gt; would be with the person recieving the message as much a=
s the one trying to<br>&gt; make him/herself understood.<br><br>No, I didn'=
t mean the use of sign, which most people consider a separate
<br>language, or at least a creole. I meant that there ability to understan=
d and<br>use an oral language. Just because you're deaf doesn't mean you ca=
n't learn to<br>speak one or to understand what others mean when they use o=
ne.
<br><br>I've no doubt it's more difficult, 'though.<br><br>&gt;<br>&gt; At =
the end of the day it is a fantasy game and we can only come so close to<br=
>&gt; reality before it becomes unplayable. As a sword fighter I can see ma=
ny
<br>&gt; unrealistic parts to the weapons and combat in the game but unders=
tand<br>&gt; conseesions must be made to ensure playability and fairness.<b=
r>&gt;<br>&gt; Susgestions on making the game more realistic are fine as lo=
ng as they
<br>&gt; enhance the fun and don't screw the system.<br><br>Varying ranks f=
or languages based on some weird notion that some language is<br>more or le=
ss capable of expressing 'elevated' concepts are crap. Language is at<br>
the root of the way we play the game, because ultimately it's about the way=
 the<br>information reaches the player from the DM.<br><br>Jim<br><br><br>-=
- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">
dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ ownership?
FromClare Baldock
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 06:11:15 +1300
On 21/02/2006, at 10:21, Cosmo wrote:

> But my dim recollection of previous conversations on the topic is  
> that obtaining the
> right would involve incorporating a company/whatever and other  
> onerous things, that
> would affect the groups not-for-profit nature.

Incorporated societies can be not-for-profit. I am sure it does cost  
a small amount though if that is what you mean,

cheers,

Clare


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 08:07:15 +1300
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Dylan,
There are starting PCs with Rank 6 in their native tongue & Rank 8
common who become mages.
=20
I also have found that a Rank 8 language is not needed for all magic -
certainly faeries use magic a lot ?racially? instinctively?, and they
often don't have Rank 8.
=20
I would say this is a guideline for PCs, not a hard & fast rule for
NPCs.
=20
As always, I make my NPCs seem realistic in whatever numbers I give
them, and waive rules that get in the way of NPC flavour. Others may be
more formal.
=20
NB: This is a description of what I have seen, not how it works in
reality or how it should work.
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of RPer 4eva
	Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 12:07 a.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Languages
=09
=09
	I'm just curious. Is there any reason a race that has a few
mages must have a language going up to rank 8? Couldn't those mages have
been trained to rank 8 in common or any other language that goes that
high? This would allow for the rare troll shaman etc.=20
	Dylan
=09
	=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006>Dylan,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D474190219-21022006>There=20
are starting PCs with Rank 6 in their native tongue &amp; Rank 8 common =
who=20
become mages.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D474190219-21022006>I also=20
have found that a Rank 8 language is not needed for all magic - =
certainly=20
faeries use magic a lot ?racially? instinctively?, and they often don't =
have=20
Rank 8.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D474190219-21022006>I=20
would say this is a guideline for PCs, not a hard &amp; fast rule for=20
NPCs.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D474190219-21022006>As=20
always, I make my NPCs seem realistic in whatever numbers I give them, =
and waive=20
rules that get in the way of NPC flavour. Others may be more=20
formal.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D474190219-21022006>NB:=20
This is a description of what I have seen, not how it works in reality =
or how it=20
should work.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D474190219-21022006>Andrew</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>RPer=20
  4eva<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 12:07 =
a.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Languages<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>I'm just curious. Is there any reason a race that has a few mages =
must=20
  have a language going up to rank 8? Couldn't those mages have been =
trained to=20
  rank 8 in common or any other language that goes that high? This would =
allow=20
  for the rare troll shaman etc. </DIV>
  <DIV>Dylan<BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromZane Mendoza
DateTue, 21 Feb 2006 12:53:28 -0800 (PST)
> I am thinking SOCIAL, as the term refers to people
> who develop lanuguage.
> Chimpanzees and baboons might have a culture, and
> even social structures, but
> they don't have language.

Jim, 
just as a side point what makes you so sure Animals
don't have a language? given all a language is for is
expressing oneself so others can understand it. Take a
baby monkey it will have various types of cry/squeel
etc which the parent will understand and react to,
that seems representative of a very simplistic
language to me, a concept that is expressed. Or take
Horses, if there is danger a horse is likely to rear
and whinny which other horses in the same group will
react to, again a very simplistic language in use
expressing concepts. There are also Birds... but I
think you have gotten the point. 

Zane

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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 10:00:48 +1300
I believe its to do with extensibility and creativity. Studies have
shown that chimps with a 1000 word vocab aren't creative in the use of
language - they don't seem to form syntactic structures from which they
can extend their communication. Human language use is inherently
creative, while animals just make sounds to mean an emotion or thought.
Animals use the same "sentence" each time, while human express the same
concept in a myriad of ways, creating unique sentences each time.

Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Zane Mendoza

> I am thinking SOCIAL, as the term refers to people
> who develop lanuguage.
> Chimpanzees and baboons might have a culture, and
> even social structures, but
> they don't have language.

Jim, 
just as a side point what makes you so sure Animals
don't have a language? given all a language is for is expressing oneself
so others can understand it. Take a baby monkey it will have various
types of cry/squeel etc which the parent will understand and react to,
that seems representative of a very simplistic language to me, a concept
that is expressed. Or take Horses, if there is danger a horse is likely
to rear and whinny which other horses in the same group will react to,
again a very simplistic language in use expressing concepts. There are
also Birds... but I think you have gotten the point. 

Zane


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
From
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 11:49:22 +1300
i saw a study some years ago of a small village in eastern europe (details very fuzzy) that was 'rediscovered' a couple of centuries ago. the village had been isolated for some time (many decades if not longer). The villagers had about 150 words or phrases. these were all they used for their everyday life.
Ok, sure, they could learn a modern language (the modern, fuller version of their own perhaps) and become familiar with modern concepts, BUT their native language did not have the flexibility to discuss politics or science. 

In DQ I would put them at the level of Rank 1, and any attempt to gain information or assistance beyond the basics would fail. 

Not everyone has Rank 8. it is stupid to suggest that all peasants have a full linguistic capability when a casual glance at the NZ Herald will show most journalists have only a passing familiarity with grammer and other English conventions. We put in place difficulties and frustrations for PCs to get around. Not every thing is a highway to the next combat. That way the rewards are more richly deserved.

And some use Rank 10, to share nuances that the lesser peoples do not understand, thinking they are all pure synonyms. and thus we encode concepts and conceipts in our dialogue, enriching the game and our experience thereof. 

And then there was Sam the Orc 'explaining' the rules to Gobbo. Rank 0 Boot was the language in common.

Pure roleplaying: not a dice in sight!

Ian



> 
> From: "Andrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)" <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz>
> Date: 2006/02/22 Wed AM 10:00:48 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Languages
> 
> I believe its to do with extensibility and creativity. Studies have
> shown that chimps with a 1000 word vocab aren't creative in the use of
> language - they don't seem to form syntactic structures from which they
> can extend their communication. Human language use is inherently
> creative, while animals just make sounds to mean an emotion or thought.
> Animals use the same "sentence" each time, while human express the same
> concept in a myriad of ways, creating unique sentences each time.
> 
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Zane Mendoza
> 
> > I am thinking SOCIAL, as the term refers to people
> > who develop lanuguage.
> > Chimpanzees and baboons might have a culture, and
> > even social structures, but
> > they don't have language.
> 
> Jim,
> just as a side point what makes you so sure Animals
> don't have a language? given all a language is for is expressing oneself
> so others can understand it. Take a baby monkey it will have various
> types of cry/squeel etc which the parent will understand and react to,
> that seems representative of a very simplistic language to me, a concept
> that is expressed. Or take Horses, if there is danger a horse is likely
> to rear and whinny which other horses in the same group will react to,
> again a very simplistic language in use expressing concepts. There are
> also Birds... but I think you have gotten the point.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
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>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
Fromraro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 12:06:16 +1300
Well, in a nutshell, read Andrew's post. What he calls extensibility, linguists
call 'underlying syntax'. What he calls creativity, linguists call
'expressiveness'. There's a lot of other crap that differentiates language from
informative noises, but frankly, if someone found an animal or a thing capable
of communicating with some kind of syntax and expressivity, not too many people
would argue that it was a language.

Jim

Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:

>
> > I am thinking SOCIAL, as the term refers to people
> > who develop lanuguage.
> > Chimpanzees and baboons might have a culture, and
> > even social structures, but
> > they don't have language.
>
> Jim,
> just as a side point what makes you so sure Animals
> don't have a language? given all a language is for is
> expressing oneself so others can understand it. Take a
> baby monkey it will have various types of cry/squeel
> etc which the parent will understand and react to,
> that seems representative of a very simplistic
> language to me, a concept that is expressed. Or take
> Horses, if there is danger a horse is likely to rear
> and whinny which other horses in the same group will
> react to, again a very simplistic language in use
> expressing concepts. There are also Birds... but I
> think you have gotten the point.
>
> Zane
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
Fromraro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 12:32:14 +1300
Quoting dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz:

> i saw a study some years ago of a small village in eastern europe (details
> very fuzzy) that was 'rediscovered' a couple of centuries ago. the village
> had been isolated for some time (many decades if not longer). The villagers
> had about 150 words or phrases. these were all they used for their everyday
> life.
> Ok, sure, they could learn a modern language (the modern, fuller version of
> their own perhaps) and become familiar with modern concepts, BUT their native
> language did not have the flexibility to discuss politics or science.

I've never heard of this study, and in Prague, there's a major centre of
linguistic study that would be on that village like a vampire on a throat
wound.

I am not convinced that such a place exists. And, I'm not convinced that you can
form a language out of so few lexical entries as 150. Assuming, however, that
this is the case, then they would be severely hampered, and not just in the way
you suggest.

You cannot learn any other language to a greater extent than the language you
learnt while you were a baby. Any other language you learn is a comparison
between your native tongue, which they call L1, and the others, which they
cleverly call L2.
>
> In DQ I would put them at the level of Rank 1, and any attempt to gain
> information or assistance beyond the basics would fail.
>
> Not everyone has Rank 8. it is stupid to suggest that all peasants have a
> full linguistic capability when a casual glance at the NZ Herald will show
> most journalists have only a passing familiarity with grammer and other
> English conventions. We put in place difficulties and frustrations for PCs to
> get around. Not every thing is a highway to the next combat. That way the
> rewards are more richly deserved.

True, I don't think all players need to be rank 8 in a language. I am just
saying that a natural langauge has to be fully expressive and that means it has
to progress to rank 10. Individuals might not have any particularly high rank
in a language, even their mother tongue, and they might acquire higher ranks as
they develop. But, to argue that one language or another is inherently more
expressive is simply fatuous.

People are hard wired for language, and even though there are lots of different
languages around the world, some of them very odd, they all do one thing. They
let you describe the world.

Presumably, the cultures where the languages that didn't let you dynamically
describe the world all died out in situations like:

"Look out, Fred, there's an ... gosh, now, what is that thing. Haven't seen one
of them before. Well, it can't be dangerous, then. It does have big teeth,
though, doesn't it...O, they're for EATING with..."
>
> And some use Rank 10, to share nuances that the lesser peoples do not
> understand, thinking they are all pure synonyms. and thus we encode concepts
> and conceipts in our dialogue, enriching the game and our experience thereof.

It seems to me that the higher your rank in a language, the more complex and
involved a concept you can explain, with differing degrees of ease. If you have
rank 10 in a language, you can explain things to me, who only speaks the
language at rank 5, even though I might not be able to pass them on to someone
else. According to this system.

Having high rank doesn't mean you automatically understand these concepts, but
that if you do, there is no barrier to your ability to describe it to others.

Jim


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 14:08:57 +1300
Looking at the current rule book there are very few languages that do not go
to rank 6, normal every day fluency.
The higher ranks are perhaps indicative of technological or magically
advance cultures and races/species. So they have a commonly used word or
words for things like a block and tackle, or the magical concept of things
like Mana, rather than having to describe the idea or object in detail.
It is likely your average peasant only uses to rank 6 in a language, Mages
with more education use to 8, and Elven philosophers use rank 10 to describe
esoteric Elven ideas.
Try explaining a how a lightbulb, or a plane works to a child some time, it
gets easier as they get older and more educated, but your still both
speaking English
Technological Advancement explains why some only go to 6, take some tribe of
savages from the darkest rain forest who have never left the jungle. While a
fully grown man can express himself and describe his world in his own
tongue, he has no word for electricity, culturally he had no need for one.

Only 3 or 4 species have languages that can not be learned above 3 or 4,
Trolls, & Wyvern, being
examples already used.
However in reading the language rules further, they say that the ranks given
are the maximum achievable.
Presumably achievable means to PCs, the Wyvern gets to be fluent in his own
language, but PCs be it because there are no teachers of Wyvern above 4, or
because there is some other limitation on the PCs ability to use/understand
the language. Eg part of the communication is in ranges beyond PC hearing
,(it is a fantasy world), they don't get to become fluent in the language.
This would nicely explain the odd Troll Mage, he is educated, but as most
trolls are just peasant types, (as most humans would be) they only need and
speak the language to rank 6 or 7.
And Traders, Spies, Former prisoners, Missionaries or whoever they are that
teach PCs have only managed to learn up to rank 4.

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 14:09:10 +1300
Looking at the current rule book there are very few languages that do not go
to rank 6, normal every day fluency.
The higher ranks are perhaps indicative of technological or magically
advance cultures and races/species. So they have a commonly used word or
words for things like a block and tackle, or the magical concept of things
like Mana, rather than having to describe the idea or object in detail.
It is likely your average peasant only uses to rank 6 in a language, Mages
with more education use to 8, and Elven philosophers use rank 10 to describe
esoteric Elven ideas.
Try explaining a how a lightbulb, or a plane works to a child some time, it
gets easier as they get older and more educated, but your still both
speaking English
Technological Advancement explains why some only go to 6, take some tribe of
savages from the darkest rain forest who have never left the jungle. While a
fully grown man can express himself and describe his world in his own
tongue, he has no word for electricity, culturally he had no need for one.

Only 3 or 4 species have languages that can not be learned above 3 or 4,
Trolls, & Wyvern, being
examples already used.
However in reading the language rules further, they say that the ranks given
are the maximum achievable.
Presumably achievable means to PCs, the Wyvern gets to be fluent in his own
language, but PCs be it because there are no teachers of Wyvern above 4, or
because there is some other limitation on the PCs ability to use/understand
the language. Eg part of the communication is in ranges beyond PC hearing
,(it is a fantasy world), they don't get to become fluent in the language.
This would nicely explain the odd Troll Mage, he is educated, but as most
trolls are just peasant types, (as most humans would be) they only need and
speak the language to rank 6 or 7.
And Traders, Spies, Former prisoners, Missionaries or whoever they are that
teach PCs have only managed to learn up to rank 4.

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 14:09:15 +1300
Looking at the current rule book there are very few languages that do not go
to rank 6, normal every day fluency.
The higher ranks are perhaps indicative of technological or magically
advance cultures and races/species. So they have a commonly used word or
words for things like a block and tackle, or the magical concept of things
like Mana, rather than having to describe the idea or object in detail.
It is likely your average peasant only uses to rank 6 in a language, Mages
with more education use to 8, and Elven philosophers use rank 10 to describe
esoteric Elven ideas.
Try explaining a how a lightbulb, or a plane works to a child some time, it
gets easier as they get older and more educated, but your still both
speaking English
Technological Advancement explains why some only go to 6, take some tribe of
savages from the darkest rain forest who have never left the jungle. While a
fully grown man can express himself and describe his world in his own
tongue, he has no word for electricity, culturally he had no need for one.

Only 3 or 4 species have languages that can not be learned above 3 or 4,
Trolls, & Wyvern, being
examples already used.
However in reading the language rules further, they say that the ranks given
are the maximum achievable.
Presumably achievable means to PCs, the Wyvern gets to be fluent in his own
language, but PCs be it because there are no teachers of Wyvern above 4, or
because there is some other limitation on the PCs ability to use/understand
the language. Eg part of the communication is in ranges beyond PC hearing
,(it is a fantasy world), they don't get to become fluent in the language.
This would nicely explain the odd Troll Mage, he is educated, but as most
trolls are just peasant types, (as most humans would be) they only need and
speak the language to rank 6 or 7.
And Traders, Spies, Former prisoners, Missionaries or whoever they are that
teach PCs have only managed to learn up to rank 4.

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Languages
Fromraro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 14:06:47 +1300
Quoting Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>:

> Looking at the current rule book there are very few languages that do not go
> to rank 6, normal every day fluency.
> The higher ranks are perhaps indicative of technological or magically
> advance cultures and races/species. So they have a commonly used word or
> words for things like a block and tackle, or the magical concept of things
> like Mana, rather than having to describe the idea or object in detail.
> It is likely your average peasant only uses to rank 6 in a language, Mages
> with more education use to 8, and Elven philosophers use rank 10 to describe
> esoteric Elven ideas.
> Try explaining a how a lightbulb, or a plane works to a child some time, it
> gets easier as they get older and more educated, but your still both
> speaking English
> Technological Advancement explains why some only go to 6, take some tribe of
> savages from the darkest rain forest who have never left the jungle. While a
> fully grown man can express himself and describe his world in his own
> tongue, he has no word for electricity, culturally he had no need for one.

Which has actually been done. Ideas in quantum mechanics were described to a
group of Kalahari bushmen using Xhosa, a language which has little or no
exposure to technology. As for why it's hard to explain how a light bulb works
to a child, mostly it's because the person doing the explaining doesn't really
know how a light bulb works, or if they do, they have difficulty explaining it.

Children, by and large, have a humbling propensity for learning.

Technological advances are not a factor for determining whether a language is
expressive. If that were the case, how would anyone ever explain something new?

Think of language as a systematic way of describing the world. It doesn't matter
if there is no word for green in your language. You might then say that
something is grass-coloured? The absence or presence of particular vocabulary
doesn't make any real difference. People just use a phrase to express what
might be uttered in a single word.

I expect there's a critical mass of total vocabulary, but once established,
there's no apparent semantic difference between languages. There is, very
occasionally, a cognitive difference between some of them.


>
> Only 3 or 4 species have languages that can not be learned above 3 or 4,
> Trolls, & Wyvern, being
> examples already used.
> However in reading the language rules further, they say that the ranks given
> are the maximum achievable.
> Presumably achievable means to PCs, the Wyvern gets to be fluent in his own
> language, but PCs be it because there are no teachers of Wyvern above 4, or
> because there is some other limitation on the PCs ability to use/understand
> the language. Eg part of the communication is in ranges beyond PC hearing
> ,(it is a fantasy world), they don't get to become fluent in the language.
> This would nicely explain the odd Troll Mage, he is educated, but as most
> trolls are just peasant types, (as most humans would be) they only need and
> speak the language to rank 6 or 7.

I'm not terribly worried by the ranks of language creatures like a wyvern might
have. It derives its language skills from the same strange magical background
that lets it fly. And, if a DM wants to have a Troll mage that can cast, then
they can always create one, with rank 8 in a language or not as they see fit.


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Subject[dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning
FromErrol Cavit
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 15:33:33 +1300
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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It was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on generating
new Rune mages be lifted.
 
This means that a version of the College that has been in the Rulebook as
'under review' for many years is available to be in play. In light of the
issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this college in their games,
I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would be appropriate.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<TITLE>Rulebook stuff needing vote</TITLE>

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=09321102-22022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>It was 
resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on generating new Rune 
mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=09321102-22022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=09321102-22022006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>This 
means that a version of the College that has been in the Rulebook as 'under 
review' for many years is available to be in play. In light of the issues that 
I'm told some GMs have with having this college in their games, I'm thinking 
that a stronger warning than normal would be 
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject[dq] Rune
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 15:53:54 +1300
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Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general
perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback to?
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Errol Cavit
	Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning
=09
=09
	It was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on
generating new Rune mages be lifted.
	=20
	This means that a version of the College that has been in the
Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in play. In
light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this college
in their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would
be appropriate.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Do we=20
have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general perusual? =
Is=20
there a contact to give feedback to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Errol=20
  Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] {Rulebook} Rune=20
  warning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It=20
  was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on generating =
new=20
  Rune mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This=20
  means that a version of the College that has been in the Rulebook as =
'under=20
  review' for many years is available to be in play. In light of the =
issues that=20
  I'm told some GMs have with having this college in their games, I'm =
thinking=20
  that a stronger warning than normal would be=20
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
=00
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SubjectRe: [dq] Rune
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 16:15:53 +1300
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MessageWhich one of the three versions in general play test are you talking
about Andrew?

Jonathan


  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
  Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: [dq] Rune


  Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general
perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback to?

  Andrew
    -----Original Message-----
    From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
    Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 p.m.
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning


    It was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on
generating new Rune mages be lifted.

    This means that a version of the College that has been in the Rulebook
as 'under review' for many years is available to be in play. In light of the
issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this college in their games,
I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would be appropriate.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Which=20
one of the three versions in general play test are you talking about=20
Andrew?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Do=20
  we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general =
perusual? Is=20
  there a contact to give feedback to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =

    </B>Errol Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34=20
    p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] =
{Rulebook} Rune=20
    warning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It=20
    was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on =
generating new=20
    Rune mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>This means that a version of the College that has been in =
the=20
    Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in =
play. In=20
    light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this =
college in=20
    their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would =
be=20
    =
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rune
FromAndrew\ Withy\ \(DSL\ AK\)
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 16:19:10 +1300
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Which version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have one version at
a time in play-test?
=20
=20
Andrew

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
	Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:16 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Rune
=09
=09
	Which one of the three versions in general play test are you
talking about Andrew?
	=20
	Jonathan
	=20
	=20

		-----Original Message-----
		From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
		Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 p.m.
		To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
		Subject: [dq] Rune
	=09
	=09
		Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available
for general perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback to?
		=20
		Andrew

			-----Original Message-----
			From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Errol Cavit
			Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 p.m.
			To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
			Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning
		=09
		=09
			It was resolved at the December meeting that the
proabition on generating new Rune mages be lifted.
			=20
			This means that a version of the College that
has been in the Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available
to be in play. In light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with
having this college in their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning
than normal would be appropriate.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Which=20
version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have one version at a =
time in=20
play-test?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Jonathan Bean - TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 =
4:16=20
  p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
  Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Which one of the three versions in general play test are you =
talking=20
  about Andrew?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
    [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
    AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
    dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Do=20
    we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general =
perusual?=20
    Is there a contact to give feedback to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
      face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
      dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf =
Of=20
      </B>Errol Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34=20
      p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] =
{Rulebook} Rune=20
      warning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>It was resolved at the December meeting that the =
proabition on=20
      generating new Rune mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>This means that a version of the College that has been in =
the=20
      Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in =
play. In=20
      light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this =
college=20
      in their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal =
would be=20
      =
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>
=00
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SubjectRe: [dq] Rune
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 16:25:19 +1300
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MessageI understand that Chris Caulfield and Dean Ellis are ment to have
gotten back to the 'working group' on Rune in Dec 2005 about a 4th super
version to replace the other verions that are currently in play test (some
have been for 5+ years).

I understand that this has not happend as yet.

Jonathan

 -----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:19 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rune


  Which version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have one version at a
time in play-test?


  Andrew
    -----Original Message-----
    From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
    Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:16 p.m.
    To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
    Subject: Re: [dq] Rune


    Which one of the three versions in general play test are you talking
about Andrew?

    Jonathan


      -----Original Message-----
      From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
      Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 p.m.
      To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
      Subject: [dq] Rune


      Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general
perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback to?

      Andrew
        -----Original Message-----
        From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf
Of Errol Cavit
        Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 p.m.
        To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning


        It was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on
generating new Rune mages be lifted.

        This means that a version of the College that has been in the
Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in play. In
light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this college in
their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would be
appropriate.

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	charset="us-ascii"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
understand that Chris Caulfield and Dean Ellis are ment to have gotten =
back to=20
the 'working group' on Rune in Dec 2005 about a 4th super version to =
replace the=20
other verions that are currently in play test (some have been for 5+=20
years).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
understand that this has not happend as yet.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006></SPAN><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D840132103-22022006>Jonathan</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D840132103-22022006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D840132103-22022006>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Andrew=20
Withy (DSL AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:19=20
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
Rune<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Which version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have one =
version=20
  at a time in play-test?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of =

    </B>Jonathan Bean - TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 =
4:16=20
    p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
    Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Which one of the three versions in general play test are =
you talking=20
    about Andrew?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
      [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy =
(DSL=20
      AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
      dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available =
for=20
      general perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback=20
      to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
        face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
        dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
        </B>Errol Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 =

        p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] =
{Rulebook}=20
        Rune warning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>It was resolved at the December meeting that the =
proabition on=20
        generating new Rune mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>This means that a version of the College that has been =
in the=20
        Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in =
play. In=20
        light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this =
college=20
        in their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal =
would=20
        be=20
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C637CC.928D55F0--


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rune
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 22 Feb 2006 16:46:25 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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MessageBTW I understand that Dean is not on the list but Chris is and he may
be able to cast some light on this?

Jonathan
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
  Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:25 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Rune


  I understand that Chris Caulfield and Dean Ellis are ment to have gotten
back to the 'working group' on Rune in Dec 2005 about a 4th super version to
replace the other verions that are currently in play test (some have been
for 5+ years).

  I understand that this has not happend as yet.

  Jonathan

   -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
  Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:19 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] Rune


    Which version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have one version at
a time in play-test?


    Andrew
      -----Original Message-----
      From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Bean - TME
      Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:16 p.m.
      To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
      Subject: Re: [dq] Rune


      Which one of the three versions in general play test are you talking
about Andrew?

      Jonathan


        -----Original Message-----
        From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf
Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
        Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 p.m.
        To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
        Subject: [dq] Rune


        Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be available for general
perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback to?

        Andrew
          -----Original Message-----
          From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Errol Cavit
          Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:34 p.m.
          To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
          Subject: [dq] {Rulebook} Rune warning


          It was resolved at the December meeting that the proabition on
generating new Rune mages be lifted.

          This means that a version of the College that has been in the
Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be in play. In
light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having this college in
their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning than normal would be
appropriate.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1528" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D556524503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>BTW I=20
understand that Dean is not on the list but Chris is and he may be able =
to cast=20
some light on this?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D556524503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D556524503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jonathan Bean -=20
  TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:25 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  understand that Chris Caulfield and Dean Ellis are ment to have gotten =
back to=20
  the 'working group' on Rune in Dec 2005 about a 4th super version to =
replace=20
  the other verions that are currently in play test (some have been for =
5+=20
  years).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
  understand that this has not happend as yet.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006></SPAN><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT =

  size=3D2><SPAN class=3D840132103-22022006><FONT face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D+0><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =

  class=3D840132103-22022006>Jonathan</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D840132103-22022006></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D840132103-22022006>&nbsp;</SPAN>-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy (DSL=20
  AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 4:19 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] =
Rune<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Which version(s) are in play-test? Shouldn't we only have =
one version=20
    at a time in play-test?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D820411803-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
      face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
      dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf =
Of=20
      </B>Jonathan Bean - TME<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February =
2006 4:16=20
      p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq]=20
      Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Which one of the three versions in general play test are =
you=20
      talking about Andrew?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D185021503-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
        size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
        [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Andrew Withy =
(DSL=20
        AK)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 3:54 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
        dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] =
Rune<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>Do we have a time-frame that a new Rune may be =
available for=20
        general perusual? Is there a contact to give feedback=20
        to?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><SPAN class=3D788485202-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
        size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          <DIV></DIV>
          <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
          face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
          dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On =
Behalf Of=20
          </B>Errol Cavit<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 22 February 2006 =
3:34=20
          p.m.<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] =
{Rulebook}=20
          Rune warning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>It was resolved at the December meeting that the =
proabition on=20
          generating new Rune mages be lifted.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D09321102-22022006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>This means that a version of the College that has =
been in the=20
          Rulebook as 'under review' for many years is available to be =
in play.=20
          In light of the issues that I'm told some GMs have with having =
this=20
          college in their games, I'm thinking that a stronger warning =
than=20
          normal would be=20
    =
appropriate.</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C637CF.85028290--


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