My 2 sp's worth. 

> 1.Re-write to give Weaponsmiths discount on cost of
> silvering etc, and cost
> formula per
>
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Silvering_Change
> 

All good I like the way you spelt the table out so
that new people won't get confused and also that it is
in line with what's written.

> 2.Take references to rank-based limits for Control
> Weather off the Weather
> Table.
> (If anyone wants to write a proposal to introduce
> rank-based limits to the
> effects possible with Control Weather, feel free to
> do so).

Happy with that. Will look forward to such a proposal.

 
> 3.A beefed-up warning for Rune College.

Thumbs up.
 
> 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> and 1 week.

A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.
 
> 5.Ignore December's vote re Alternate Spec Grev
> table. General note re
> alternative rules/tables should be in other
> documents (or the Rulebook intro
> if we had one).
> If someone wants to do some design notes/suggestions
> for any tables, we can
> include them.

ok
 
> 6.Clarifications (that might be thought rule
> changes)
> Namers get to learn (as well as rank higher than
> rk1) names in their extra
> training slot.
> Golem Statistics. Change MA: 0 to MA: None to
> reflect text of rituals 
> Stream of Corruption (S-14) reword
> Shaping Flesh Golems (R-4) Add sentence saying that
> they are sentient (to
> match given MA of 0) 
> Spy, Clarify that get to choose an optional ability
> at Rank 0 
> Armourer says that Weaponsmiths get EP discount,
> should also be stated in Weaponsmith

All good with these ones.

> Weapons Table, Note F s/be can throw 3 darts (at up
> to 3 targets) per
> Action, not pulse.
 
not 100% on this one, am not for or against at this
stage.



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RE: [dq-announce] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
>From: Errol Cavit
>4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
and 1 week.

Yeah, having a time in the book would be good for us newbies :)

Karen


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Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:


>
> > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> > and 1 week.
>
> A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.

I would have thought that the reason a time to learn them wasn't mentioned
because you don't learn them.

Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that all adventurers can climb
unless there's a reason that they can't. When you put on climbing claws (or
crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to climb with them.

That's all. End of story.

What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend some time learning how to
swim with flippers?

Jim


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:10
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
> 
> 
> Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:
> 
> 
> >
> > > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> > > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> > > and 1 week.
> >
> > A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.
> 
> I would have thought that the reason a time to learn them 
> wasn't mentioned
> because you don't learn them.

Well if you read the skill, you would know that using them is additional
ability, costing EP to learn.

However no mention is made of how long this takes, or if you can learn at
the same time as taking a rank, or some other arrangement.

> 
> Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that all 
> adventurers can climb
> unless there's a reason that they can't. When you put on 
> climbing claws (or
> crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to climb with them.
> 
> That's all. End of story.
> 
> What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend some 
> time learning how to
> swim with flippers?

How about checking your facts before making aggressive posts?

Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th =
March - Rules Votes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Quoting Zane Mendoza =
&lt;zcmendoza@yahoo.com&gt;:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; 4.Time taken for learning Claws and =
Ropes for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; and 1 week.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; A good addition given there is no time =
mentioned atm.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I would have thought that the reason a time to =
learn them </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; wasn't mentioned</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; because you don't learn them.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Well if you read the skill, you would know that using =
them is additional ability, costing EP to learn.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>However no mention is made of how long this takes, or =
if you can learn at the same time as taking a rank, or some other =
arrangement.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed =
that all </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; adventurers can climb</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; unless there's a reason that they can't. When =
you put on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; climbing claws (or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus =
to climb with them.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; That's all. End of story.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; What next? Are we going to presume you have to =
spend some </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; time learning how to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; swim with flippers?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>How about checking your facts before making =
aggressive posts?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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Just because it costs xp to advance something doesn't mean that it takes time to
learn it.

Raising a stat or advancing talents or adventuring skills doesn't take time, and
these are part of adventuring skills.

Quoting Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> > raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> > Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:10
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
> >
> >
> > Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> > > > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> > > > and 1 week.
> > >
> > > A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.
> >
> > I would have thought that the reason a time to learn them
> > wasn't mentioned
> > because you don't learn them.
>
> Well if you read the skill, you would know that using them is additional
> ability, costing EP to learn.
>
> However no mention is made of how long this takes, or if you can learn at
> the same time as taking a rank, or some other arrangement.
>
> >
> > Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that all
> > adventurers can climb
> > unless there's a reason that they can't. When you put on
> > climbing claws (or
> > crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to climb with them.
> >
> > That's all. End of story.
> >
> > What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend some
> > time learning how to
> > swim with flippers?
>
> How about checking your facts before making aggressive posts?

How about engaging your brain?

Jim


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

The theory behind Stats, Talents and Adventuring Skills is that you get better at them from using
them but don't get the benefit until you spend the xp.
Alternatively you can train Adventuring Skills as per normal skills by spending the time as well.

I think a week or two to learn to use climbing claws and ropes with climbing is excessive, what
about applying a variant of the Adv Skill rules - if you use them on adventure or are spending
time ranking Climbing then there is no time cost, otherwise they take 1 week each.

Cheers, Stephen.

> Just because it costs xp to advance something doesn't mean that it takes time to learn it.
>
> Raising a stat or advancing talents or adventuring skills doesn't take time, and these are part
> of adventuring skills.
>
> Quoting Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>:
>
>>
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
>> > Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:10
>> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>> > Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
>> >
>> >
>> > Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
>> > > > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
>> > > > and 1 week.
>> > >
>> > > A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.
>> >
>> > I would have thought that the reason a time to learn them
>> > wasn't mentioned
>> > because you don't learn them.
>>
>> Well if you read the skill, you would know that using them is additional ability, costing EP
>> to learn.
>>
>> However no mention is made of how long this takes, or if you can learn at the same time as
>> taking a rank, or some other arrangement.
>>
>> >
>> > Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that all
>> > adventurers can climb
>> > unless there's a reason that they can't. When you put on
>> > climbing claws (or
>> > crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to climb with them.
>> >
>> > That's all. End of story.
>> >
>> > What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend some
>> > time learning how to
>> > swim with flippers?
>>
>> How about checking your facts before making aggressive posts?
>
> How about engaging your brain?
>
> Jim
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --


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How about just not bothering to change the rule in anyway at all.

It's not necessary, and it doesn't do anything productive for the game. We
probably shouldn't even make people pay experience to use them. If you can
climb, then you just get a bonus for having a rope to do it with?

Otherwise, the skill reads that you either don't use the rope, or you can't use
it, when anyone who has climbed even a little tree can tell that it makes a
hell of a lot of difference whether or not you have a rope or not.

Jim.

Quoting Stephen Martin <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>:

> The theory behind Stats, Talents and Adventuring Skills is that you get
> better at them from using
> them but don't get the benefit until you spend the xp.
> Alternatively you can train Adventuring Skills as per normal skills by
> spending the time as well.
>
> I think a week or two to learn to use climbing claws and ropes with climbing
> is excessive, what
> about applying a variant of the Adv Skill rules - if you use them on
> adventure or are spending
> time ranking Climbing then there is no time cost, otherwise they take 1 week
> each.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> > Just because it costs xp to advance something doesn't mean that it takes
> time to learn it.
> >
> > Raising a stat or advancing talents or adventuring skills doesn't take
> time, and these are part
> > of adventuring skills.
> >
> > Quoting Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> >> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> >> > Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:10
> >> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >> > Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> >> > > > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> >> > > > and 1 week.
> >> > >
> >> > > A good addition given there is no time mentioned atm.
> >> >
> >> > I would have thought that the reason a time to learn them
> >> > wasn't mentioned
> >> > because you don't learn them.
> >>
> >> Well if you read the skill, you would know that using them is additional
> ability, costing EP
> >> to learn.
> >>
> >> However no mention is made of how long this takes, or if you can learn at
> the same time as
> >> taking a rank, or some other arrangement.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that all
> >> > adventurers can climb
> >> > unless there's a reason that they can't. When you put on
> >> > climbing claws (or
> >> > crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to climb with them.
> >> >
> >> > That's all. End of story.
> >> >
> >> > What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend some
> >> > time learning how to
> >> > swim with flippers?
> >>
> >> How about checking your facts before making aggressive posts?
> >
> > How about engaging your brain?
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:53
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes
> 
> 
> How about just not bothering to change the rule in anyway at all.
> 


Because, as it stands, players read the Rulebook, and don't know what the
time requirement are. It could be no time, can be ranked if the GM says
someone taught you ropes/claws on adventure, 'free' with any other Climbing
ranking, an unknown period of time that was left out of the Rulebook by
accident....

In my experience climbing is very rarely used 'extensively' on adventure, if
you want to rank it you really have to spend money and explicit training
time.

> It's not necessary, and it doesn't do anything productive for 
> the game. 


People getting confused, or spending time looking around the Rulebook trying
to find what to do, or making an assumption and wondering if they are doing
it right is a good and useful thing is it? When it is easily removed as an
issue by deciding what the time requirements are (which could be 'none'),
and writing them down in the appropriate place? It's not that important, or
any kind of showstopper, but addressing it is useful.

I've pulled this out as a separate issue (rather than including it in the
group of Rulebook changes that aren't actual rule changes) because it isn't
clear how it 'should' be done. 

> We
> probably shouldn't even make people pay experience to use 
> them. If you can
> climb, then you just get a bonus for having a rope to do it with?


A perfectly reasonable suggestion for a rule change. 
Note that the current bonus is that you get to make one roll if you are
using ropes, rather than the standard one roll per 20 or 10 feet, . The
current rules on climbing don't appear that logical (you have to make a roll
per x feet, AND there is a small modifier for the structure height?). There
was a lot of discussion (which wasn't really resolved) about climbing when
we discussed Thief a while back.



> 
> Otherwise, the skill reads that you either don't use the 
> rope, or you can't use
> it, 

Yes, although there is a 'GM modifier' explicitly allowed for in the
formula.


> when anyone who has climbed even a little tree can tell 
> that it makes a
> hell of a lot of difference whether or not you have a rope or not.

Yes, and under the current rules if it's a short climb you don't get any
real benefit even if you have spent EP on Ropes.


<snip>

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:53</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; How about just not bothering to change the rule =
in anyway at all.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Because, as it stands, players read the Rulebook, and =
don't know what the time requirement are. It could be no time, can be =
ranked if the GM says someone taught you ropes/claws on adventure, =
'free' with any other Climbing ranking, an unknown period of time that =
was left out of the Rulebook by accident....</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In my experience climbing is very rarely used =
'extensively' on adventure, if you want to rank it you really have to =
spend money and explicit training time.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It's not necessary, and it doesn't do anything =
productive for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the game. </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>People getting confused, or spending time looking =
around the Rulebook trying to find what to do, or making an assumption =
and wondering if they are doing it right is a good and useful thing is =
it? When it is easily removed as an issue by deciding what the time =
requirements are (which could be 'none'), and writing them down in the =
appropriate place? It's not that important, or any kind of showstopper, =
but addressing it is useful.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've pulled this out as a separate issue (rather than =
including it in the group of Rulebook changes that aren't actual rule =
changes) because it isn't clear how it 'should' be done. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; We</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; probably shouldn't even make people pay =
experience to use </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; them. If you can</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; climb, then you just get a bonus for having a =
rope to do it with?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A perfectly reasonable suggestion for a rule change. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Note that the current bonus is that you get to make =
one roll if you are using ropes, rather than the standard one roll per =
20 or 10 feet, . The current rules on climbing don't appear that =
logical (you have to make a roll per x feet, AND there is a small =
modifier for the structure height?). There was a lot of discussion =
(which wasn't really resolved) about climbing when we discussed Thief a =
while back.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Otherwise, the skill reads that you either =
don't use the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rope, or you can't use</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it, </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes, although there is a 'GM modifier' explicitly =
allowed for in the formula.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; when anyone who has climbed even a little tree =
can tell </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that it makes a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; hell of a lot of difference whether or not you =
have a rope or not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Yes, and under the current rules if it's a short =
climb you don't get any real benefit even if you have spent EP on =
Ropes.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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currently there is no time component involved with
learning them in fact you can just buy the ability
regardless of skill level. Also learning how to use
climbing "Claws" and Ropes isn't something inherant
you would have to learn how to use the equipment to
ensure that you can safely climb a surface and
learning how to tie appropriate knots. ALso atm you
can just buy the skill when your not ranking anything
to do with climbing, as there is nothing in the rules
which forces you to buy the skills to use Claws/Ropes
while learning how to climb.

Zane

--- raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz wrote:

> Quoting Zane Mendoza <zcmendoza@yahoo.com>:
> 
> 
> >
> > > 4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for
> > > Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
> > > and 1 week.
> >
> > A good addition given there is no time mentioned
> atm.
> 
> I would have thought that the reason a time to learn
> them wasn't mentioned
> because you don't learn them.
> 
> Climbing is an adventuring skill. It is assumed that
> all adventurers can climb
> unless there's a reason that they can't. When you
> put on climbing claws (or
> crampons) of if you use ropes, you get a bonus to
> climb with them.
> 
> That's all. End of story.
> 
> What next? Are we going to presume you have to spend
> some time learning how to
> swim with flippers?
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify
> mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 


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without the rule in front of me, is it worth the following:

Takes one week, plus xx ep to learn to use ropes or claws. The Climber then gains blah bonus to climbing skills. Any other climber gets half that bonus is they are climbing under the Climber's direction. And they get a half amount(cumulative) if they are roped to the Climber.


Makes it much more useful to a party and might enable them to stay together (if teh knock kneed can also climb the wall), and could explain why it takes a week to learn - a week being the quantum of skill time. Advanced falling is a difficult skill to get right, and i assume the skill is meant to cover climbs a bit more taxing than a stupid tree. An advanced climb covers planning teh route, use of holds, placing rope ties, rest spots etc.

giving clues to the GM for when to give bonuses, or to not require rolls, is useful in a rule book because not everyone has needed a rope to climb a tree.


Ian

> 
> From: Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>
> Date: 2006/03/03 Fri PM 12:00:07 GMT+13:00
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> > raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz
> > Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:53
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> > Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes
> > 
> > 
> > How about just not bothering to change the rule in anyway at all.
> > 
> 
> 
> Because, as it stands, players read the Rulebook, and don't know what the
> time requirement are. It could be no time, can be ranked if the GM says
> someone taught you ropes/claws on adventure, 'free' with any other Climbing
> ranking, an unknown period of time that was left out of the Rulebook by
> accident....
> 
> In my experience climbing is very rarely used 'extensively' on adventure, if
> you want to rank it you really have to spend money and explicit training
> time.
> 
> > It's not necessary, and it doesn't do anything productive for 
> > the game. 
> 
> 
> People getting confused, or spending time looking around the Rulebook trying
> to find what to do, or making an assumption and wondering if they are doing
> it right is a good and useful thing is it? When it is easily removed as an
> issue by deciding what the time requirements are (which could be 'none'),
> and writing them down in the appropriate place? It's not that important, or
> any kind of showstopper, but addressing it is useful.
> 
> I've pulled this out as a separate issue (rather than including it in the
> group of Rulebook changes that aren't actual rule changes) because it isn't
> clear how it 'should' be done. 
> 
> > We
> > probably shouldn't even make people pay experience to use 
> > them. If you can
> > climb, then you just get a bonus for having a rope to do it with?
> 
> 
> A perfectly reasonable suggestion for a rule change. 
> Note that the current bonus is that you get to make one roll if you are
> using ropes, rather than the standard one roll per 20 or 10 feet, . The
> current rules on climbing don't appear that logical (you have to make a roll
> per x feet, AND there is a small modifier for the structure height?). There
> was a lot of discussion (which wasn't really resolved) about climbing when
> we discussed Thief a while back.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Otherwise, the skill reads that you either don't use the 
> > rope, or you can't use
> > it, 
> 
> Yes, although there is a 'GM modifier' explicitly allowed for in the
> formula.
> 
> 
> > when anyone who has climbed even a little tree can tell 
> > that it makes a
> > hell of a lot of difference whether or not you have a rope or not.
> 
> Yes, and under the current rules if it's a short climb you don't get any
> real benefit even if you have spent EP on Ropes.
> 
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Cheers
> Errol
> 
> 

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A HREF="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; raro002@ec.auckland.ac.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 10:53</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; How about just not bothering to change the rule in anyway at all.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Because, as it stands, players read the Rulebook, and don't know what the time requirement are. It could be no time, can be ranked if the GM says someone taught you ropes/claws on adventure, 'free' with any other Climbing ranking, an unknown period of time that was left out of the Rulebook by accident....</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>In my experience climbing is very rarely used 'extensively' on adventure, if you want to rank it you really have to spend money and explicit training time.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; It's not necessary, and it doesn't do anything productive for </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; the game. </FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>People getting confused, or spending time looking around the Rulebook trying to find what to do, or making an assumption and wondering if they are doing it right is a good and useful thing is it? When it is easily removed as an issue by deciding what the time requirements are (which could be 'none'), and writing them down in the appropriate place? It's not that important, or any kind of showstopper, but addressing it is useful.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I've pulled this out as a separate issue (rather than including it in the group of Rulebook changes that aren't actual rule changes) because it isn't clear how it 'should' be done. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; We</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; probably shouldn't even make people pay experience to use </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; them. If you can</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; climb, then you just get a bonus for having a rope to do it with?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>A perfectly reasonable suggestion for a rule change. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Note that the current bonus is that you get to make one roll if you are using ropes, rather than the standard one roll per 20 or 10 feet, . The current rules on climbing don't appear that logical (you have to make a roll per x feet, AND there is a small modifier for the structure height?). There was a lot of discussion (which wasn't really resolved) about climbing when we discussed Thief a while back.</FONT></P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Otherwise, the skill reads that you either don't use the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; rope, or you can't use</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; it, </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, although there is a 'GM modifier' explicitly allowed for in the formula.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; when anyone who has climbed even a little tree can tell </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; that it makes a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; hell of a lot of difference whether or not you have a rope or not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, and under the current rules if it's a short climb you don't get any real benefit even if you have spent EP on Ropes.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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> Takes one week, plus xx ep to learn to use ropes or claws. 
> The Climber then gains blah bonus to climbing skills. Any 
> other climber gets half that bonus is they are climbing under 
> the Climber's direction. And they get a half 
> amount(cumulative) if they are roped to the Climber.

Just out of interest, does anyone have an idea of how these ropes are
used in regard to the skill?

Is it climbers roped together? Is it ropes attached to spikes to add
some level of safety? Or is it a top roped belayed climb?

Ropes don't actually help you climb things. Unless you are climbing the
rope or being pulled up. 

Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to come rock-climbing sometime,
I would be happy to organise a day to do so. 

They do stop you plumetting to your death and to be honest you don't
really need to learn how to do that, you simply dangle as seems
appropriate. 

Climbing claws I have never seen or used but from the description I
cannot see these being a rockclimbing thing at all, but would certainly
assist in the climbing of trees as I presume they are the archaic
equivilent of the spikes used by lumberjack to scale tree's. 

In game the reality of climbing is meaningless and frankly the skill is
pretty much ignored other than a number to hand to the GM. Any of the
changes mentioned will have no impact on the game and so it really
doesn't matter what we do. If we choose to redo the skill so it is used
and is possibly a bit more realistic then that's fine to but dabbling in
the edges of this is going to cause more arguments than it is worth (as
it already has) and is not going to add anything to the game at all. 

To sum up. Change the time, it doesn't really change anything and a few
people may feel happier about their ranking. 

Jim stop hassling minor changes. Sure they add nothing to the game but
they don't detract either and if people want to waste time with minor
changes it's their perogative. Save the rants for changes that actually
make a difference. 

Mandos
/s


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Quoting Mandos Mitchinson <MandosM@adhb.govt.nz>:
>
> Jim stop hassling minor changes. Sure they add nothing to the game but
> they don't detract either and if people want to waste time with minor
> changes it's their perogative. Save the rants for changes that actually
> make a difference.


Yes, they do make a difference.

It is the death of the game by inches, and the imposition of rules without
thought.

Jim.


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> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Zane Mendoza
> Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 08:41
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes

<snip>
>  
> > 6.Clarifications (that might be thought rule
> > changes)
<snip>
> 
> > Weapons Table, Note F s/be can throw 3 darts (at up
> > to 3 targets) per
> > Action, not pulse.
>  
> not 100% on this one, am not for or against at this
> stage.

Normally you get one action per pulse, the rulebook as originally written
tended to reflect this. However you throw 3 darts as an Action, and you can
do so at up to 3 targets. Strictly applying the rule as written would mean a
quickened character couldn't throw darts at 3 targets in first Action, and 3
more at 3 different targets in their second. This isn't what was intended,
and changing pulse to action sorts it out. Note there are some things that
deliberately take a pulse (e.g. triggering an invested).
I've listed it because I might have made a mistake in the above logic, and
pointing out the change increases the chances of someone noticing any
stuff-up.

Cheers
Errol

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Zane Mendoza</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 08:41</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th =
March - Rules Votes</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; 6.Clarifications (that might be thought =
rule</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; changes)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Weapons Table, Note F s/be can throw 3 =
darts (at up</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; to 3 targets) per</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; &gt; Action, not pulse.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not 100% on this one, am not for or against at =
this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; stage.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Normally you get one action per pulse, the rulebook =
as originally written tended to reflect this. However you throw 3 darts =
as an Action, and you can do so at up to 3 targets. Strictly applying =
the rule as written would mean a quickened character couldn't throw =
darts at 3 targets in first Action, and 3 more at 3 different targets =
in their second. This isn't what was intended, and changing pulse to =
action sorts it out. Note there are some things that deliberately take =
a pulse (e.g. triggering an invested).</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I've listed it because I might have made a mistake in =
the above logic, and pointing out the change increases the chances of =
someone noticing any stuff-up.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

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<P>Some may consider this pedantry, but it may also a good point to clarify that you should also be able to prepare those three darts in a single action, and clarify if the listed weight of 3lbs is per dart or per set of three.<BR>
</P>
<P>Though, if they do weight that much, you may be better off just dropping them on people from a height.<BR>
</P>
<P>ben<BR>
<BR>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P><STRONG></STRONG><BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; Weapons Table, Note F s/be can throw 3 darts (at up</FONT> <BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; to 3 targets) per</FONT> <BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; Action, not pulse.</FONT> <BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT><BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt; not 100% on this one, am not for or against at this</FONT> <BR>
<FONT size=2>&gt; stage.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Normally you get one action per pulse, the rulebook as originally written tended to reflect this. However you throw 3 darts as an Action, and you can do so at up to 3 targets. Strictly applying the rule as written would mean a quickened character couldn't throw darts at 3 targets in first Action, and 3 more at 3 different targets in their second. This isn't what was intended, and changing pulse to action sorts it out. Note there are some things that deliberately take a pulse (e.g. triggering an invested).</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>I've listed it because I might have made a mistake in the above logic, and pointing out the change increases the chances of someone noticing any stuff-up.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT> <BR>
<FONT size=2>Errol</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
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That would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!
 
The rules on preparing weapons look to be fairly vague, just given as an
example under Pass Actions. 
"Typical Pass Actions include: preparing an item or weapon;"
 
I think we can leave this to GMs (if you don't have some kind of bandolier
etc good luck). Likewise if your targets are spread around you in a circle
the GM might have issues with firing at all of them, but a note covering a
rarely-used provision isn't the place to write an essay.
The main reason I'm doing the Action/Pulse thing is that there are a few
things that specifically take a pulse, and this isn't one of them AFAIK. 
 
What might be useful to point out is that you can do this using just one
hand. I'll had it to the bottom of the list.
 
Cheers
Errol
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Cosmo
Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 13:55
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes



Some may consider this pedantry, but it may also a good point to clarify
that you should also be able to prepare those three darts in a single
action, and clarify if the listed weight of 3lbs is per dart or per set of
three.


Though, if they do weight that much, you may be better off just dropping
them on people from a height.


ben




> > Weapons Table, Note F s/be can throw 3 darts (at up 
> > to 3 targets) per 
> > Action, not pulse. 
>  
> not 100% on this one, am not for or against at this 
> stage. 

Normally you get one action per pulse, the rulebook as originally written
tended to reflect this. However you throw 3 darts as an Action, and you can
do so at up to 3 targets. Strictly applying the rule as written would mean a
quickened character couldn't throw darts at 3 targets in first Action, and 3
more at 3 different targets in their second. This isn't what was intended,
and changing pulse to action sorts it out. Note there are some things that
deliberately take a pulse (e.g. triggering an invested).

I've listed it because I might have made a mistake in the above logic, and
pointing out the change increases the chances of someone noticing any
stuff-up.

Cheers 
Errol 


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<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That 
would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The 
rules on preparing weapons look to be fairly vague, just given as an example 
under Pass Actions. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff>"</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>Typical Pass Actions include:<SPAN 
class=839510701-03032006> </SPAN>preparing an item or 
weapon;"</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
think we can leave this to GMs (if you don't have some kind of bandolier etc 
good luck). Likewise if your targets are spread around you in a circle the GM 
might have issues with firing at all of them, but a note covering a rarely-used 
provision isn't the place to write an essay.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The 
main reason I'm doing the Action/Pulse thing is that there are a few things that 
specifically take a pulse, and this isn't one of them AFAIK. 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>What 
might be useful to point out is that you can do this using just one hand. I'll 
had it to the bottom of the list.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=839510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Cosmo<BR><B>Sent:</B> 
  Friday, 3 March 2006 13:55<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> 
  Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P>Some may consider this pedantry, but it may also a good point to clarify 
  that you should also be able to prepare those three darts in a single action, 
  and clarify if the listed weight of 3lbs is per dart or per set of 
  three.<BR></P>
  <P>Though, if they do weight that much, you may be better off just dropping 
  them on people from a height.<BR></P>
  <P>ben<BR><BR></P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <P><STRONG></STRONG><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; Weapons Table, Note F s/be 
    can throw 3 darts (at up</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; to 3 targets) 
    per</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; &gt; Action, not pulse.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
    size=2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; not 100% on this one, am not 
    for or against at this</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; stage.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT size=2>Normally you get one action per pulse, the rulebook as 
    originally written tended to reflect this. However you throw 3 darts as an 
    Action, and you can do so at up to 3 targets. Strictly applying the rule as 
    written would mean a quickened character couldn't throw darts at 3 targets 
    in first Action, and 3 more at 3 different targets in their second. This 
    isn't what was intended, and changing pulse to action sorts it out. Note 
    there are some things that deliberately take a pulse (e.g. triggering an 
    invested).</FONT></P>
    <P><FONT size=2>I've listed it because I might have made a mistake in the 
    above logic, and pointing out the change increases the chances of someone 
    noticing any stuff-up.</FONT></P>
    <P><FONT size=2>Cheers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Errol</FONT> 
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Quoting Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>:

> That would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!

Darts of the kind used on battlefields are not small. Roman darts were about the
length of your forearm. I believe they would have weighed about a half lb.
Still, much less than three lbs

Jim


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Quoting Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>:

> That would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!
>

I thought about this some more.

While it's true that a dart wouldn't have weighed as much as 3lbs, it might
reasonably encumber by that much. I would imagine that they're tricky to carry
around in numbers.

Jim.


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<B>On Fri Mar 3 14:46 , Errol Cavit &lt;ecavit@tollnz.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
<BR>
</B>
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<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So it is!&nbsp; I was taken&nbsp; it from a derivative source which dropped the "oz"&nbsp;and I'll arrange to get that updated.&nbsp; But I will raise the quibbling defense it is rather ill-mannered to have a table with fractions, different units, and variables in a table&nbsp; :)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The rules on preparing weapons look to be fairly vague, just given as an example under Pass Actions. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff>"</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>Typical Pass Actions include:<SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006> </SPAN>preparing an item or weapon;"</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think we can leave this to GMs (if you don't have some kind of bandolier etc good luck). Likewise if your targets are spread around you in a circle the GM might have issues with firing at all of them, but a note covering a rarely-used provision isn't the place to write an essay.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The main reason I'm doing the Action/Pulse thing is that there are a few things that specifically take a pulse, and this isn't one of them AFAIK. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Very fair. The main reason I'm sticking my hand up is that I've got a character who has been carrying darts around for five years or more, I've always shied waay from pulling them out because of the vagueness of the rules.&nbsp; It generally seems simpler and far more polite to cast another spell than launch into a possible rules debate in the middle of a combat.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>What might be useful to point out is that you can do this using just one hand. I'll had it to the bottom of the list.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN classƒ9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Then the preparing becomes of great interest as you could, by stretching your iMutchkination a little, prepare and throw two handfuls of darts every two actions,&nbsp; which is a lot of darts.&nbsp; It may make a great more sense to treat them like a two-handed missile weapon, the off hand holding the ammunition while the other throws.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>At least that gives some scope for funky abilities to improve on that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ben</FONT></DIV>
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4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks
and 1 week.  
 
Take it out.
 
It's stupid.
 
How can any rank of climber have to ignore a rope?
 
Kelsie 

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>RE: [dq-announce] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - =
Rules Votes</TITLE>
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>4.Time taken for learning =
Claws and Ropes=20
for Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks and 1 week.</FONT>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Take it out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It's stupid.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>How&nbsp;can any rank of climber have to ignore =
a=20
rope?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Kelsie</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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 Having looked at what is in the rules regarding climbing currently.

I says  the skill allows the character to climb without specialized
equipment
That the use of equipment may improve the chances for climbing but you need
to be familiar with it. Presumably the writers where thinking that you need
to know how to tie things properly and not get rope rapped around your neck,
or a claw coming loose.

The ep cost for claws and ropes is Additional.
As it is an Adventuring skill that can in theory be improved by use, I agree
it is unclear as to when the Additional EP is applied.
My call as a GM from the current wording would be that to gain familiarity
you would add the extra ep to the ep value of an improvement to rank your in
climbing. Thus the familiarity in there use would be gained either in
training at the guild  for said rank or alternately after extensive use of
the items and skill on adventure without the added chance of success to the
skill the items give.

While I have no strong objection to giving them a learning time.

It seems to me it would be just as easy to add a line or two saying  that:
Familiarity is gained by use during the time towards the characters next
rank, without the improved chance of climbing if on adventure. The
additional ep cost is add to the cost of your next rank at the time of
ranking. If learned after rank 10 then they take a weeks training and the
required ep.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@castle.pointclark.net>

> The theory behind Stats, Talents and Adventuring Skills is that you get
better at them from using
> them but don't get the benefit until you spend the xp.
> Alternatively you can train Adventuring Skills as per normal skills by
spending the time as well.
>
> I think a week or two to learn to use climbing claws and ropes with
climbing is excessive, what
> about applying a variant of the Adv Skill rules - if you use them on
adventure or are spending
> time ranking Climbing then there is no time cost, otherwise they take 1
week each.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>


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I support removing this rule.

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Kelsie
	Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 3:53 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes
=09
=09
	4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing. I
suggest 2 weeks and 1 week. =20
	=20
	Take it out.
	=20
	It's stupid.
	=20
	How can any rank of climber have to ignore a rope?
	=20
	Kelsie=20


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D830205702-03032006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
support removing this rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B>On Behalf Of=20
  </B>Kelsie<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 3 March 2006 3:53 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th =
March -=20
  Rules Votes<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT size=3D2>4.Time taken for learning =
Claws and Ropes=20
  for Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks and 1 week.</FONT>&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Take it out.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It's stupid.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>How&nbsp;can any rank of climber have to =
ignore a=20
  rope?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D906545102-03032006></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D906545102-03032006><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Kelsie</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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I've always considered the rope 'skill' to be the ability to set up ropes 
for other people to use - and that's how I've used it in game.

Regards,
Rosemary




Kelsie <kelsie@orcon.net.nz> 
Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
03/03/2006 03:53 p.m.
Please respond to
dq@dq.sf.org.nz


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cc

Subject
Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March - Rules Votes






4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing. I suggest 2 weeks 
and 1 week.  
 
Take it out.
 
It's stupid.
 
How can any rank of climber have to ignore a rope?
 
Kelsie 

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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I've always considered the rope 'skill'
to be the ability to set up ropes for other people to use - and that's
how I've used it in game.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,<br>
Rosemary<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Kelsie &lt;kelsie@orcon.net.nz&gt;</b>
</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/03/2006 03:53 p.m.</font>
<table border>
<tr valign=top>
<td bgcolor=white>
<div align=center><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to<br>
dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font></div></table>
<br>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td>
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<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [dq] Guild Meeting Sunday 12th March
- Rules Votes</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2>4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing.
I suggest 2 weeks and 1 week.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Take it out.</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">It's stupid.</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">How can any rank of climber have
to ignore a rope?</font>
<br><font size=3>&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Kelsie</font><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=3><br>
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-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Cosmo
Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 15:17
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes - darts


On Fri Mar 3 14:46 , Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> sent:



That would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!
 

So it is!  I was taken  it from a derivative source which dropped the "oz"
and I'll arrange to get that updated.  But I will raise the quibbling
defense it is rather ill-mannered to have a table with fractions, different
units, and variables in a table  :)

 
Don't forget the V's :-)
 

 
 
 
 
The rules on preparing weapons look to be fairly vague, just given as an
example under Pass Actions. 
"Typical Pass Actions include: preparing an item or weapon;"
 
I think we can leave this to GMs (if you don't have some kind of bandolier
etc good luck). Likewise if your targets are spread around you in a circle
the GM might have issues with firing at all of them, but a note covering a
rarely-used provision isn't the place to write an essay.
The main reason I'm doing the Action/Pulse thing is that there are a few
things that specifically take a pulse, and this isn't one of them AFAIK. 
 

Very fair. The main reason I'm sticking my hand up is that I've got a
character who has been carrying darts around for five years or more, I've
always shied waay from pulling them out because of the vagueness of the
rules.  It generally seems simpler and far more polite to cast another spell
than launch into a possible rules debate in the middle of a combat. 
 

 
I know the feeling. 
My Namer has some darts in his floating chest, figuring that they could be
useful to fling at something he's caught in his magical net one day.
 
 

 
What might be useful to point out is that you can do this using just one
hand. I'll had it to the bottom of the list.
 

Then the preparing becomes of great interest as you could, by stretching
your iMutchkination a little, prepare and throw two handfuls of darts every
two actions,  which is a lot of darts.   
 
 

 
As Jim pointed out, actually arranging significant numbers on your person
could be an issue. Much past the first 6 as quick draw seems dodgy to me. 
I seem to remember Eric(? Kin?) using a couple of sets of 3 to useful effect
on Purple 5 years ago. Probably magical.
I'm not sure that having D+0 damage from them is reasonable . OK for larger
ones maybe, in which case the x3 seems less likely.

I'm thinking that this discussion is more thought than the original DQ
writers put into the point! :-)

 

 
 

 
 It may make a great more sense to treat them like a two-handed missile
weapon, the off hand holding the ammunition while the other throws.
 
At least that gives some scope for funky abilities to improve on that.
 

3 a pulse with the ~half pound ones feels vaguely reasonable using 2 hands.
Any one know how the Romans used them? Were they shield-mounted or anything
like that?
 
Cheers
Errol

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Cosmo<BR><B>Sent:</B> 
  Friday, 3 March 2006 15:17<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> 
  Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes - darts<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><B>On Fri Mar 3 14:46 
  , Errol Cavit &lt;ecavit@tollnz.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR><BR></B>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><DEFANGED_META 
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    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>That 
    would be 3 ounces per dart, not pounds!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>So it 
  is!&nbsp; I was taken&nbsp; it from a derivative source which dropped the 
  "oz"&nbsp;and I'll arrange to get that updated.&nbsp; But I will raise the 
  quibbling defense it is rather ill-mannered to have a table with fractions, 
  different units, and variables in a table&nbsp; 
:)</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006>Don't forget the V's :-)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The 
    rules on preparing weapons look to be fairly vague, just given as an example 
    under Pass Actions. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT size=+0><FONT size=2><FONT 
    face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff>"</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>Typical Pass 
    Actions include:<SPAN class=839510701-03032006> </SPAN>preparing an item or 
    weapon;"</FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
    think we can leave this to GMs (if you don't have some kind of bandolier etc 
    good luck). Likewise if your targets are spread around you in a circle the 
    GM might have issues with firing at all of them, but a note covering a 
    rarely-used provision isn't the place to write an essay.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The 
    main reason I'm doing the Action/Pulse thing is that there are a few things 
    that specifically take a pulse, and this isn't one of them AFAIK. 
    </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2>Very fair. The main reason I'm sticking my hand up is that I've got a 
  character who has been carrying darts around for five years or more, I've 
  always shied waay from pulling them out because of the vagueness of the 
  rules.&nbsp; It generally seems simpler and far more polite to cast another 
  spell than launch into a possible rules debate in the middle of a combat.<SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  size=2><SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=340132602-03032006>I know the feeling. 
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
size=2><SPAN class=340132602-03032006>My Namer has some darts in his floating 
chest, figuring that they could be useful to fling at something he's caught in 
his magical net one day.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>What 
    might be useful to point out is that you can do this using just one hand. 
    I'll had it to the bottom of the list.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class&#402;9510701-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
    size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Then the preparing becomes of great 
  interest as you could, by stretching your iMutchkination a little, prepare and 
  throw two handfuls of darts every two actions,&nbsp; which is a lot of 
  darts.&nbsp;&nbsp;<SPAN class=340132602-03032006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=340132602-03032006>As Jim 
pointed out, actually arranging significant numbers on your person could be an 
issue. Much past the first 6 as quick draw seems dodgy to me. 
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=340132602-03032006>I seem 
to remember Eric(? Kin?) using a couple of sets of 3 to useful effect on Purple 
5 years ago. Probably magical.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><SPAN class=340132602-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<P>I'm not sure that having D+0 damage from them is reasonable<SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006>&nbsp;.&nbsp;</SPAN>OK for larger ones maybe<SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006>, in which case the x3 seems less likely.</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=340132602-03032006>I'm thinking that this discussion is more 
thought than the original DQ writers put into the point! :-)</SPAN></P>
<P><SPAN class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2><SPAN class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=340132602-03032006>&nbsp;</SPAN>It may make a great more sense to treat 
  them like a two-handed missile weapon, the off hand holding the ammunition 
  while the other throws.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>At least that gives some scope for 
  funky abilities to improve on that.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=340132602-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>3 a 
pulse with the ~half pound ones feels vaguely reasonable using 2 hands. Any one 
know how the Romans used them? Were they shield-mounted or anything like 
that?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=340132602-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=340132602-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=340132602-03032006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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I'm convinced.  Remove Ropes and Claws as purchaseable skills/add-ons.

If you have them you can use them to a level of competency based on your rank in Climbing.
From memory claws give you a BC bonus, and rope reduces the number of rolls per climb.
The downside of using them is that you have to carry them around when you're not climbing.

Cheers, Stephen.

DSL AK said:
> I support removing this rule.
>
> 	-----Original Message-----
> 	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of Kelsie
>
> 	4.Time taken for learning Claws and Ropes for Climbing. I
> suggest 2 weeks and 1 week.
>
> 	Take it out.
>
> 	It's stupid.
>
> 	How can any rank of climber have to ignore a rope?
>
> 	Kelsie


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Agreed Roman Dart  may have been more on the lines of a very small spear or
more arrow sized.

Now by the rules 20 arrows only  weighs 2 lb by that scale 1 arrow weighs
1/10th of a pound or 1.6 oz
So throwing darts being 3 oz makes them twice as heavy or as encumbering as
an arrow.

I see nothing wrong with the weight.

Helen


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.Any one know how the Romans used them? Were they shield-mounted or anything
like that?

Cheers
Errol

The theory bases on scant evidance is they were in some sort of quiver,
possibly mounted behind the sheild, or some think hung from the saddle on
the side of the horse.
Such darts are more the domain of the light roman cavalry than roman
infantry.
And like a lot of these things how and where was never writen down, (at
least not in surviving text), and the pictorial evidance is ambigous.

Helen


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Plumbata or Mattiobarbuli were lead weighted darts hurled underarm and
mounted on the inside of the shield.

The excerpt below is from the wiki entry

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 5:38 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes - darts


.Any one know how the Romans used them? Were they shield-mounted or anything
like that?

Cheers
Errol

The theory bases on scant evidance is they were in some sort of quiver,
possibly mounted behind the sheild, or some think hung from the saddle on
the side of the horse.
Such darts are more the domain of the light roman cavalry than roman
infantry.
And like a lot of these things how and where was never writen down, (at
least not in surviving text), and the pictorial evidance is ambigous.

Helen


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There were much thicker than arrows, which, when all is said and done are about
the thickness of a heavy pencil.

Empirically, you cannot throw an arrow with the same kind of force, unless you
can get your armspeed up to something unusually quick.

Darts were heavy, and short range. As I recall from the Commentaries, they used
them when they were making landings and things like that.

A reasonable number could be thrown quite quickly, the idea being not really to
hurt the enemy so much as to worry them about engaging as the Romans were
wading ashore. No doubt they caused a vicious wound or two, but I suspect that
much of the harm was negligible.

They may not have bothered with them against groups that routinely used shields.
Shields are pretty damned good against darts.

Jim.

Quoting Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz>:

> Agreed Roman Dart  may have been more on the lines of a very small spear or
> more arrow sized.
>
> Now by the rules 20 arrows only  weighs 2 lb by that scale 1 arrow weighs
> 1/10th of a pound or 1.6 oz
> So throwing darts being 3 oz makes them twice as heavy or as encumbering as
> an arrow.
>
> I see nothing wrong with the weight.
>
> Helen
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Quoting William Dymock <dworkin@ihug.co.nz>:

> Plumbata or Mattiobarbuli were lead weighted darts hurled underarm and
> mounted on the inside of the shield.
>
> The excerpt below is from the wiki entry


I don't know about these terms. We were told to translate as darts the word
'telos'. Which I always thought odd, since it sounds more Greek than Latin.
Nevertheless, it is apparently something that they threw as they were leaping
onto British beaches.

Jim


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> Helen Saggers
> Sent: Friday, 3 March 2006 5:38 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] March - Rules Votes - darts
>
>
> .Any one know how the Romans used them? Were they shield-mounted or anything
> like that?
>
> Cheers
> Errol
>
> The theory bases on scant evidance is they were in some sort of quiver,
> possibly mounted behind the sheild, or some think hung from the saddle on
> the side of the horse.
> Such darts are more the domain of the light roman cavalry than roman
> infantry.
> And like a lot of these things how and where was never writen down, (at
> least not in surviving text), and the pictorial evidance is ambigous.
>
> Helen
>
>
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