Hi all,

I have done some work on Carzala. Since it may impact on players/GMs please
can I get people to review it and give feedback or comments. At some point I
want to work the areas up into defined Baronies.

Back CAP names are the district capital.
Village names are in Dark Blue.
Roads (all year around) are in red.
Paths and trails (and sessional roads) are in Pink.
Light Blue lines are streams.
Dark Green - woods etc
Black lower case texted are points of interest.

Gugnir's Hope http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Gugnir%27s_Hope

Northfield http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Northfield

Seacroft http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Seacroft

Monch's Corner
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Monck%27s_Corners

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Business Development Manager +64 21 173 4060, www.tme.co.nz
TME -it's all about time
NZ Toll Free 0800 55 33 66, Aust Toll Free 1800 30 51 75


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Being completely ignorant of appropriate population numbers and distribution of villages in
pseudo-medieval times, it looks good to me.

The maps look good.  Makes it easy for characters who are from Carzala or wish to establish their
homes in Carzala to be specific about where they live.
And great for adventures that travel from the guild by land (apparently some people do this) to
have named villages to pass through or stop at.

It is my understanding that (central) Carzala is the size of a Barony, it became a Duchy through
some politicking and bullying by some guild members.
Or as scurrilous rumour has it, the adventurers in question were confused but powerful enough that
when they mistakenly referred to Baron Leto as Duke of Carzala nobody was willing to argue and
then the promotion stuck.

History aside I believe that a town and surrounds of a couple of thousand people is not a Barony. 
The local noble would be a Knight or Lord, probably live in a big house with stone walls and have
gardens with inedible crops like flowers and decorative shrubs, resolve disputes, collect taxes,
and socialise.
Some villages might have a local Knight or Squire, but he probably has a real job running a farm
or pub as well as resolving disputes, etc.

Cheers, Stephen.

Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have done some work on Carzala. Since it may impact on players/GMs please
> can I get people to review it and give feedback or comments. At some point I
> want to work the areas up into defined Baronies.
>
> Back CAP names are the district capital.
> Village names are in Dark Blue.
> Roads (all year around) are in red.
> Paths and trails (and sessional roads) are in Pink.
> Light Blue lines are streams.
> Dark Green - woods etc
> Black lower case texted are points of interest.
>
> Gugnir's Hope http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Gugnir%27s_Hope
>
> Northfield http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Northfield
>
> Seacroft http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Seacroft
>
> Monck's Corner
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Monck%27s_Corners


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Evil, Evil, Evil, GM. :-)
There aren't enough water mages in the guild to move 2-3,000 head by =
sea.=20
It would take a hundred trips, they have to go by land.
Jono knows what I'm on about.=20

Other than that:
I agree with Stephen that the local nobles would probably be knights =
and/or a squires.=20
Although the actual knight is probably away at the war. That's the whole =
point of giving knights land so they can afford to be knights.

The main towns populations don't look too bad considering the average =
family would be 7 or  8 and crafts masters could have an apprentices or =
journeymen to support too.  1000 people is only 120 or so houses.=20
From a recent ad for a new paperboy, I know there are 280 homes in just =
the few streets around my place and modern housing density is much lower =
than a walled town.

Although if these populations stand the main carzala page will need =
amending for these towns.

Helen

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</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Evil, Evil, Evil, GM. :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There aren't enough water mages in the =
guild to=20
move 2-3,000 head by sea. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It would take&nbsp;a hundred trips, =
they have to go=20
by land.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jono knows what I'm on about. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Other than=20
that:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with Stephen that the local =
nobles would=20
probably be knights and/or a squires. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Although the actual knight is probably =
away at the=20
war. That's the whole point of giving knights land so they can afford to =
be=20
knights.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main towns populations don't look =
too bad=20
considering the average family would be 7 or&nbsp; 8 and crafts masters =
could=20
have an apprentices or journeymen to support too.&nbsp; 1000 people is =
only 120=20
or so houses. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From a recent ad for a new paperboy, I =
know there=20
are 280 homes in just the few streets around my place and&nbsp;modern =
housing=20
density is much lower than a walled town.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Although if these populations stand the =
main=20
carzala page will need amending for these towns.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Stephen wrote:
> Being completely ignorant of appropriate population numbers and 
> distribution of villages in pseudo-medieval times, it looks good to me.

Given the effect of magic we have a range of options which we can use.
This can and seems to range from minor magic of blessing on crops to 
weather control and blessing on crops, livestock and children. 

> The maps look good.  
Thank you. I agree.

> Makes it easy for characters who are from 
> Carzala or wish to establish their
> homes in Carzala to be specific about where they live.
> And great for adventures that travel from the guild by land 
> (apparently some people do this) to
> have named villages to pass through or stop at.

I agree, and hope others do also.
 
> History aside I believe that a town and surrounds of a couple of 
> thousand people is not a Barony. The local noble would be a Knight 
> or Lord, probably live in a big house with stone walls and have
> gardens with inedible crops like flowers and decorative shrubs, 
> resolve disputes, collect taxes, and socialise.

At this point given Carzala's location, and wealth of Seagate both 
from Adventures and from trade, we can if we wish safely say there
is 1,500 people happily living in each hex which is approx 21 Sq Miles.

Carzla has (by the Frontiers of Alusia map) around 120 hexes of 
settled and farmed land. Northfield is around 10 hex of the 120, 
which at 1,500 per hex is 15,000 in the area. A population of 15,000 
could have a Baron.

But this gets to the next and bigger question...

If each hex has 1,500 people living and farming in it, then the 
population for Carzala is not correct. If the current population of 
Carzala is correct then we as GMs need to add large amounts of wilderness 
to the mix and have a lower populations in some (read most) hexes.

So which way should we go? Increase the population? lower the area of 
settled land? For me given the large population of Seagate I would like 
to increase the population in the settled areas to match at a base of 
1,500 people per hex. What do people think?

...Cut...



 
> Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have done some work on Carzala. Since it may impact on 
> players/GMs please
> > can I get people to review it and give feedback or comments. At 
> some point I
> > want to work the areas up into defined Baronies.
> >
> > Back CAP names are the district capital.
> > Village names are in Dark Blue.
> > Roads (all year around) are in red.
> > Paths and trails (and sessional roads) are in Pink.
> > Light Blue lines are streams.
> > Dark Green - woods etc
> > Black lower case texted are points of interest.
> >
> > Gugnir's Hope 
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Gugnir%27s_Hope
> >
> > Northfield http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Northfield
> >
> > Seacroft http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Seacroft
> >
> > Monck's Corner
> > http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Monck%27s_Corners
> 
> 
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
> 
> !DSPAM:44b18d5a373911935220040!
> 
> 
>


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Hi all,

I think keep the village level at the local level so that main pages of
Carzala do not end up cluttered or unusable.

So the Northfield page would have on it all the info for a small village in
the area (as per the map) until the village needed its own page, such as the
Gugnir's Hope page and Candlestone Farm page. I see little point in making
lots of new pages with mostly the same info: A small farming village with
400 to 600 people living in it. Unless that named village is differant dont
add clutter.

But within the main page of eash area add the Village name so we can search
for it.
So on the Northfield page would be;
Bayview, Greenwood, Hogalton, Eastfield, Blackcrow, Dunhill, Bardview,
Bluehill, Silkfield, Evergreen.

This would (I guess) allow players and GMs to search the wiki for it.

Jonathan

  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
  Sent: Monday, 10 July 2006 1:42 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala


  Evil, Evil, Evil, GM. :-)
  There aren't enough water mages in the guild to move 2-3,000 head by sea.
  It would take a hundred trips, they have to go by land.
  Jono knows what I'm on about.

  Hehe - I know.

  Other than that:
  I agree with Stephen that the local nobles would probably be knights
and/or a squires.
  Although the actual knight is probably away at the war. That's the whole
point of giving knights land so they can afford to be knights.

  The main towns populations don't look too bad considering the average
family would be 7 or  8 and crafts masters could have an apprentices or
journeymen to support too.  1000 people is only 120 or so houses.
  From a recent ad for a new paperboy, I know there are 280 homes in just
the few streets around my place and modern housing density is much lower
than a walled town.

  Although if these populations stand the main carzala page will need
amending for these towns.





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<HTML><HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-15">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>Hi=20
all,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>I=20
think keep the village level at the local level so that main pages of =
Carzala do=20
not end up cluttered or unusable.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>So the=20
Northfield page would have on it all the info for a small village in the =
area=20
(as per the map) until the village needed its own page, such as the =
Gugnir's=20
Hope page and Candlestone Farm page. I see&nbsp;little point in making =
lots of=20
new pages with mostly the same info: A small farming village with 400 to =
600=20
people living in it. Unless that named village is differant dont add =
clutter.=20
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>But=20
within the main page of eash area add the Village name so we can search =
for=20
it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>So on=20
the Northfield page would be;</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006>Bayview, Greenwood, Hogalton, Eastfield, =
Blackcrow,=20
Dunhill, Bardview, Bluehill, Silkfield, Evergreen.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D631043101-10072006>This=20
would (I guess) allow players and GMs to search the wiki for=20
it.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Jonathan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Helen=20
  Saggers<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 10 July 2006 1:42 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] DQ: =
Carzala<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Evil, Evil, Evil, GM. =
:-)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>There aren't enough water mages in =
the guild to=20
  move 2-3,000 head by sea. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It would take&nbsp;a hundred trips, =
they have to=20
  go by land.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jono knows what I'm on about. =
</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
  size=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hehe=20
  - I know.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D631043101-10072006>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  size=3D2>Other than that:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree with Stephen that the local =
nobles would=20
  probably be knights and/or a squires. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Although the actual knight is =
probably away at=20
  the war. That's the whole point of giving knights land so they can =
afford to=20
  be knights.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main towns populations don't look =
too bad=20
  considering the average family would be 7 or&nbsp; 8 and crafts =
masters could=20
  have an apprentices or journeymen to support too.&nbsp; 1000 people is =
only=20
  120 or so houses. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From a recent ad for a new paperboy, =
I know there=20
  are 280 homes in just the few streets around my place and&nbsp;modern =
housing=20
  density is much lower than a walled town.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>Although if these populations =
stand the=20
  main carzala page will need amending for these towns.<SPAN=20
  class=3D631043101-10072006><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D631043101-10072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D631043101-10072006>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</BODY></HTML>

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Jonno wrote:
> So which way should we go? Increase the population? lower the area of
> settled land? For me given the large population of Seagate I would like
> to increase the population in the settled areas to match at a base of
> 1,500 people per hex. What do people think?

A bit of both?

Possible to do if your braking Carzala up into districts or baronies or
whatever, but not if you are just doing a general description of the whole
settled area.

Along the rivers, (logically more arable & accessible), & close to seagate,
Raise the population density.
Along the edge of the fastness, rough lands, drop the proportion of settled
land. (Access, arability, danger level, making population growth slower)
You could even end up with a higher population density than current given in
those areas and still be dropping the amount of settled land.

Helen


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Plugging in some appropriate values into
http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/

(Namely, 30 persons / sq km, 6600 sq km, 8 km across ) results in
numbers that seem right to me.

But also I'd prefer to see some "adventuring" areas close to Carzala
and always liked the Plains of Desai as those.

TTFN, Struan

On 7/10/06, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
> Jonno wrote:
> > So which way should we go? Increase the population? lower the area of
> > settled land? For me given the large population of Seagate I would like
> > to increase the population in the settled areas to match at a base of
> > 1,500 people per hex. What do people think?
>
> A bit of both?
>
> Possible to do if your braking Carzala up into districts or baronies or
> whatever, but not if you are just doing a general description of the whole
> settled area.
>
> Along the rivers, (logically more arable & accessible), & close to seagate,
> Raise the population density.
> Along the edge of the fastness, rough lands, drop the proportion of settled
> land. (Access, arability, danger level, making population growth slower)
> You could even end up with a higher population density than current given in
> those areas and still be dropping the amount of settled land.
>
> Helen
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Pop of ~ 75/ sqm mile is roughly France in the early 1300's, I think. Please someone correct me here.

France was a (the most?) densely populated area, and had been settled for many hundreds of years. Frontier areas are much less densely populated. Its tricky to get an exact analogy in Europe, but Poland was more like 30 pp/sqm, and England 50-ish. I'd be happy with 75-100 for Bowcourt/Aquila, large, stable, long-term areas. A frontier area which has just had a devistating war through it for 10 years is going to be more like 10-15 pp/sqm, and they'd be clustered, with large areas unreclaimed for a generation or two. This also has the advantage of allowing lower level and frontier-type games in Carzala, which seems to fit its history. Seagate is the extra-planar hub and gold coinage source of the west, and so is effectively a trading port like Venice/Florence, which does a distorting population thing for the area around it, particularly with dragging the young and keen off the fields in unusual proportions.

Can we keep the populations low, with a single great big city of Seagate ? It takes decades to build up towns when things are prosperous - popn just doesn't grow that fast (without Witches/Healers in every village).

Note, I like the stuff in general. Just me and numbers...
BTW, for those who are keen, I reckon we should be able to get a post-Black Death population / economic/social freedom boom thing happening in Carzala for the next little while.


Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Monday, 10 July 2006 1:27 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala


Stephen wrote:
> Being completely ignorant of appropriate population numbers and 
> distribution of villages in pseudo-medieval times, it looks good to me.

Given the effect of magic we have a range of options which we can use.
This can and seems to range from minor magic of blessing on crops to weather control and blessing on crops, livestock and children. 

> The maps look good.  
Thank you. I agree.

> Makes it easy for characters who are from Carzala or wish to establish 
> their homes in Carzala to be specific about where they live.
> And great for adventures that travel from the guild by land 
> (apparently some people do this) to have named villages to pass 
> through or stop at.

I agree, and hope others do also.
 
> History aside I believe that a town and surrounds of a couple of 
> thousand people is not a Barony. The local noble would be a Knight or 
> Lord, probably live in a big house with stone walls and have gardens 
> with inedible crops like flowers and decorative shrubs, resolve 
> disputes, collect taxes, and socialise.

At this point given Carzala's location, and wealth of Seagate both from Adventures and from trade, we can if we wish safely say there is 1,500 people happily living in each hex which is approx 21 Sq Miles.

Carzla has (by the Frontiers of Alusia map) around 120 hexes of settled and farmed land. Northfield is around 10 hex of the 120, which at 1,500 per hex is 15,000 in the area. A population of 15,000 could have a Baron.

But this gets to the next and bigger question...

If each hex has 1,500 people living and farming in it, then the population for Carzala is not correct. If the current population of Carzala is correct then we as GMs need to add large amounts of wilderness to the mix and have a lower populations in some (read most) hexes.

So which way should we go? Increase the population? lower the area of settled land? For me given the large population of Seagate I would like to increase the population in the settled areas to match at a base of 1,500 people per hex. What do people think?

...Cut...



 
> Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have done some work on Carzala. Since it may impact on
> players/GMs please
> > can I get people to review it and give feedback or comments. At
> some point I
> > want to work the areas up into defined Baronies.
> >
> > Back CAP names are the district capital.
> > Village names are in Dark Blue.
> > Roads (all year around) are in red.
> > Paths and trails (and sessional roads) are in Pink.
> > Light Blue lines are streams.
> > Dark Green - woods etc
> > Black lower case texted are points of interest.
> >
> > Gugnir's Hope
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Gugnir%27s_Hope
> >
> > Northfield http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Northfield
> >
> > Seacroft http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Seacroft
> >
> > Monck's Corner
> > http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Monck%27s_Corners
> 
> 
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How about this option;
Since we have about 12 towns (smaller ones) on the map and one large city
and 6363 sq km approx, I think we should try to fit with what we have so -
we could do this;

This could mean if we wish it to;
6363 sq km with 40 people per sq km (being; Abundent arable land)

Carzala's population is approximately 254,520 persons.
This is a total of 279,750 persons (including a bonus of 25,230 for
Seagate).

  5,092 residents are isolated or itinerant. (Keep it).
226,522 residents live in 504 villages. (we can fit 504 on the map).
 22,906 residents live in 12 towns (Average 1,908).
 25,230 residents live in Seagate. (From wiki, and fits with city map).

The website says: average distance between villages is 4 km, (we should
change it to fit with the map).
The website says: average distance between towns is 41 km, (we should change
it to fit with the map).

Website also says (livestock and fowl and dairy) which I feel is to much
information and worthless to me.
559,944 livestock.
380,761 fowl (ducks chickens etc).
179,183 dairy and meat animals (pigs goats cows etc).

Jono

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
> Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Monday, 10 July 2006 3:46 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
>
> Pop of ~ 75/ sqm mile is roughly France in the early 1300's, I
> think. Please someone correct me here.
>
> France was a (the most?) densely populated area, and had been
> settled for many hundreds of years. Frontier areas are much less
> densely populated. Its tricky to get an exact analogy in Europe,
> but Poland was more like 30 pp/sqm, and England 50-ish. I'd be
> happy with 75-100 for Bowcourt/Aquila, large, stable, long-term
> areas. A frontier area which has just had a devistating war
> through it for 10 years is going to be more like 10-15 pp/sqm,
> and they'd be clustered, with large areas unreclaimed for a
> generation or two. This also has the advantage of allowing lower
> level and frontier-type games in Carzala, which seems to fit its
> history. Seagate is the extra-planar hub and gold coinage source
> of the west, and so is effectively a trading port like
> Venice/Florence, which does a distorting population thing for the
> area around it, particularly with dragging the young and keen off
> the fields in unusual proportions.
>
> Can we keep the populations low, with a single great big city of
> Seagate ? It takes decades to build up towns when things are
> prosperous - popn just doesn't grow that fast (without
> Witches/Healers in every village).
>
> Note, I like the stuff in general. Just me and numbers...
> BTW, for those who are keen, I reckon we should be able to get a
> post-Black Death population / economic/social freedom boom thing
> happening in Carzala for the next little while.
>
>
> Andrew
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of Jonathan Bean - TME
> Sent: Monday, 10 July 2006 1:27 p.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
>
> Stephen wrote:
> > Being completely ignorant of appropriate population numbers and
> > distribution of villages in pseudo-medieval times, it looks good to me.
>
> Given the effect of magic we have a range of options which we can use.
> This can and seems to range from minor magic of blessing on crops
> to weather control and blessing on crops, livestock and children.
>
> > The maps look good.
> Thank you. I agree.
>
> > Makes it easy for characters who are from Carzala or wish to establish
> > their homes in Carzala to be specific about where they live.
> > And great for adventures that travel from the guild by land
> > (apparently some people do this) to have named villages to pass
> > through or stop at.
>
> I agree, and hope others do also.
>
> > History aside I believe that a town and surrounds of a couple of
> > thousand people is not a Barony. The local noble would be a Knight or
> > Lord, probably live in a big house with stone walls and have gardens
> > with inedible crops like flowers and decorative shrubs, resolve
> > disputes, collect taxes, and socialise.
>
> At this point given Carzala's location, and wealth of Seagate
> both from Adventures and from trade, we can if we wish safely say
> there is 1,500 people happily living in each hex which is approx
> 21 Sq Miles.
>
> Carzla has (by the Frontiers of Alusia map) around 120 hexes of
> settled and farmed land. Northfield is around 10 hex of the 120,
> which at 1,500 per hex is 15,000 in the area. A population of
> 15,000 could have a Baron.
>
> But this gets to the next and bigger question...
>
> If each hex has 1,500 people living and farming in it, then the
> population for Carzala is not correct. If the current population
> of Carzala is correct then we as GMs need to add large amounts of
> wilderness to the mix and have a lower populations in some (read
> most) hexes.
>
> So which way should we go? Increase the population? lower the
> area of settled land? For me given the large population of
> Seagate I would like to increase the population in the settled
> areas to match at a base of 1,500 people per hex. What do people think?
>
> ...Cut...
>
>
>
>
> > Jonathan Bean - TME wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have done some work on Carzala. Since it may impact on
> > players/GMs please
> > > can I get people to review it and give feedback or comments. At
> > some point I
> > > want to work the areas up into defined Baronies.
> > >
> > > Back CAP names are the district capital.
> > > Village names are in Dark Blue.
> > > Roads (all year around) are in red.
> > > Paths and trails (and sessional roads) are in Pink.
> > > Light Blue lines are streams.
> > > Dark Green - woods etc
> > > Black lower case texted are points of interest.
> > >
> > > Gugnir's Hope
> > http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Gugnir%27s_Hope
> > >
> > > Northfield http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Northfield
> > >
> > > Seacroft http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Seacroft
> > >
> > > Monck's Corner
> > > http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Monck%27s_Corners
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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On 7/10/06, DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> <Andrew\Withy\\> wrote:
>
> Pop of ~ 75/ sqm mile is roughly France in the early 1300's, I think.
> Please someone correct me here.


Figures I've seen would put France of that period at around 80, and Germany
at around 70. We are talking a later period analogue, plus fertility magics,
but minus settlement period, and recent conflict.

A frontier area which has just had a devistating war through it for 10 years
> is going to be more like 10-15 pp/sqm, and they'd be clustered, with large
> areas unreclaimed for a generation or two.


That would be a solution.  Keep the towns and the areas needed to sensibly
support them, perhaps reduce their pops (they were generally increased from
the Frontiers figures), so set them back a bit to represent the effects of
the war.

Can we keep the populations low, with a single great big city of Seagate ?


Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like Seacroft,
population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop increased),
needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which given that the
Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests
that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures).

At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.  (At 10-15
pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).  Another option is that
only part of the town's pop is urban, and some work the land around the town
settlement (which would decrease the supporting population).

Original figures aside, most of the towns and villages in Frontiers have had
their populations increased (Six of the "towns" mentioned in the Frontiers
had pops of 400-600 which really made them villages not towns):

(pop: Frontiers Pop / Wiki Pop)
Seagate (pop: 3000 / 25230
Stonesboro (pop: 1100 / 1100)
Monck's Corners (pop: 1400 / 2400)
Seacroft (pop: 1300 / 1300)
Crystal Spring (pop: 1200 / 800)
Venture (pop: 900 / 2340)
Slippery Rock (pop: 400-600 / 800)
Arn's Ferry (pop: 400-600 / 4200)
Bolton (pop: 400-600 / 1470)
Southgate (pop: 400-600 / no entry)
Northfield (pop: 400-600 / 2600)
Gugnir's Hope  (pop: 400-600 / 2830)

Total Frontiers: 12,000 (listed), 11,900 (adding towns)
Total Wiki: 45,500 approx

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On 7/10/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">DSL AK) &lt;<a href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt;</b> &lt;Andrew\Withy\\&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Pop of ~ 75/ sqm mile is roughly France in the early 1300's, I think. Please someone correct me here.</blockquote><div><br>Figures I've seen would put France of that period at around 80, and Germany at around 70. We are talking a later period analogue, plus fertility magics, but minus settlement period, and recent conflict.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">A frontier area which has just had a devistating war through it for 10 years is going to be more like 10-15 pp/sqm, and they'd be clustered, with large areas unreclaimed for a generation or two.
</blockquote><div><br>That would be a solution.&nbsp; Keep the towns and the areas needed to sensibly support them, perhaps reduce their pops (they were generally increased from the Frontiers figures), so set them back a bit to represent the effects of the war.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Can we keep the populations low, with a single great big city of Seagate ?</blockquote>
<div><br>Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures).
<br><br>At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.&nbsp; (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).&nbsp; Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and some work the land around the town settlement (which would decrease the supporting population).
<br><br>Original figures aside, most of the towns and villages in Frontiers have had their populations increased (Six of the &quot;towns&quot; mentioned in the Frontiers had pops of 400-600 which really made them villages not towns):
<br><br>(pop: Frontiers Pop / Wiki Pop)<br>Seagate (pop: 3000 / 25230<br>Stonesboro (pop: 1100 / 1100)<br>Monck's Corners (pop: 1400 / 2400)<br>Seacroft (pop: 1300 / 1300)<br>Crystal Spring (pop: 1200 / 800)<br>Venture (pop: 900 / 2340)
<br>Slippery Rock (pop: 400-600 / 800)<br>Arn's Ferry  (pop: 400-600 / 4200)<br>Bolton  (pop: 400-600 / 1470)<br>Southgate  (pop: 400-600 / no entry)<br>Northfield  (pop: 400-600 / 2600)<br>Gugnir's Hope&nbsp; (pop: 400-600 / 2830)
<br></div><br>Total Frontiers: 12,000 (listed), 11,900 (adding towns)<br>Total Wiki: 45,500 approx<br></div>

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On 7/10/06, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Carzala's population is approximately 254,520 persons.
> This is a total of 279,750 persons (including a bonus of 25,230 for
> Seagate).


Hi Jono,

Before we start setting Carzala's population at quarter of a million to
support the listed urban population perhaps we should reconsider the town
populations both in light of the conflict of several years, and because
there is desire (majority desire?) to have Carzala be rather less than more
civilized for adventuring scope.

The Frontiers guide gave the urban population of the "Barony of Carzala",
discounting Seagate, and the "towns" of 400-600 people (really villages) as:
5,900.  This has been increased in the Wiki listings to around 20,000.

The former figure requires perhaps 60k people to support it, the latter
requires 200k.

What is the value in increasing the urban numbers (and hence supporting
rural numbers) so much?

Cheers,
Martin

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On 7/10/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jonathan Bean - TME</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">Jonathan@tme.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>Carzala's population is approximately 254,520 persons.<br>This is a total of 279,750 persons (including a bonus of 25,230 for<br>Seagate).</blockquote><div><br>Hi Jono,<br><br>Before we start setting Carzala's population at quarter of a million to support the listed urban population perhaps we should reconsider the town populations both in light of the conflict of several years, and because there is desire (majority desire?) to have Carzala be rather less than more civilized for adventuring scope.
<br><br>The Frontiers guide gave the urban population of the &quot;Barony of Carzala&quot;, discounting Seagate, and the &quot;towns&quot; of 400-600 people (really villages) as: 5,900.&nbsp; This has been increased in the Wiki listings to around 20,000.
<br><br>The former figure requires perhaps 60k people to support it, the latter requires 200k.<br><br>What is the value in increasing the urban numbers (and hence supporting rural numbers) so much?<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin
<br></div></div><br>

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----- Original Message -----=20
From: Martin Dickson=20
Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like Seacroft, =
population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop increased), =
needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which given that the =
Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate =
suggests that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures).=20

At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.  (At =
10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).  Another option =
is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and some work the land =
around the town settlement (which would decrease the supporting =
population).=20


One Town needing a rual area of  8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be okay if =
we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close.=20
Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general feel I =
get from posts is we don't want things that civilised.=20
But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we aint got =
enough hexs between towns to support the "town" population in any case.

One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop per sq =
mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if the town ends =
up a village so be it.=20
Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by refugees =
from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now drifting away again. =
We have all heard of ghost towns, populations move and change.

Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame the =
unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from Brastor =
Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say the towns =
import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.

I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town. Things =
like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited.=20



Helen

PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for a supply =
post and as port to move on the rest of the country, that attracted camp =
followers to the fort and Merchants to the port, pretty soon there was a =
town, and then a city. And it had nothing to do with farm land or local =
urban population, and everything to do with trade routes, the river, and =
the towns population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and =
traders.
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>From: Martin=20
Dickson <BR>Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like=20
Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop=20
increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which =
given that=20
the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate =
suggests=20
that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures). <BR><BR>At 1500 =
per hex=20
that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.&nbsp; (At 10-15 pp/sqm =
its about=20
50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).&nbsp; Another option is that only part =
of the=20
town's pop is urban, and some work the land around the town settlement =
(which=20
would decrease the supporting population). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>One Town needing =
a rual area=20
of&nbsp; 8 hexs at 1500 a hex&nbsp;would be&nbsp;okay if we were working =
a blank=20
map but&nbsp;Cazarla's "towns" are too close. </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Now 1500 a hex is the =
70 to 80 pp per=20
sq mile, and the general feel I get from posts is&nbsp;we don't want =
things that=20
civilised. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>But what ever our per =
sq mile=20
numbers,&nbsp;we're screwed cause we aint got&nbsp;enough hexs between =
towns to=20
support the "town" population in any case.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>One solution is to =
throw out all the=20
old figures work out a pop per sq mile we like, then rework the town =
figures to=20
match and if the town ends up a village so be it. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Blame the war, or the =
population=20
being previously boosted by refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where =
ever, that=20
are now drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns, =
populations move=20
and change.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Like wise we could =
<STRONG>keep=20
the&nbsp;current</STRONG> urban population and<STRONG> blame the =
unusally=20
high</STRONG> urban pop on the war, displaced persons from =
Brastor&nbsp;Holding=20
and camp followers of the various armies, and say the towns import from =
beyond=20
the normal local area, just as seagate must.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I also =
</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>kind of like the idea land =
being worked=20
from the town. Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem =
suited.=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Helen</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>PS London was a =
Roman military=20
post, built at a good point for a supply post and as port to move on the =
rest of=20
the country, that attracted camp followers to the fort&nbsp;and =
Merchants to the=20
port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had nothing =
to do=20
with farm land or local urban population, and everything to do with =
trade=20
routes, the river, and the towns population mix of military, local =
governors tax=20
collectors and traders.</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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