hi all,

it is cool over here in Mauritania today, only 27 degrees by 9 am and 34 at noon, heading towards a max of about 42 degrees. cool enough to break out the beanies. sunny though and the beach is not crowded.

Well done Jono, and to all of the contributions.

I also like a varied rural-population density. it would be good to take several things into account, and i am guessing the campaign committee is looking at these.

Magic changes many things, and modern technologies, or even predicted future technologies can be used to emulate this. Not that i want a techno feel, just to know what can be done wiht magic, and how that would affect the world.

15th C Europe was rather smelly, much like Paris is now on a warm summer day. People are crammed into small towns and cities and urban drift barely keeps up with the death rate (50% of adult death is by homicide, probably 50% of children die before 5 years old). Urban sprawl is not going to happen as it takes up valuable farm land. There were no sewers nor (clean) reticulated water. I do not think this is how we want to play. Moorish Spain of the previous century had them before the Christian French captured their towns, slaughtered the inhabitants and destroyed the infrastructure, but the mooors were nasty people given to keeping their word and other bad things so they had it coming. 

IMO universally available magic will:
1. improve farming yeilds so a smaller acerage of farms is needed to support a given urban population. the amount of waste ground, which was not normally farmed as it does not provide sufficient yeild to the labour required (IE you get thiner farming it) may increase or it may decrease - an increase in % waste will enlarge the about of wild between each arable area around a village, and may make the arable area quite spotchy.
2. improve agricultural practice so fewer farmers are needed to feed a town.
3. improve transport of said produce so that a greater acerage is available to feed a town. It used to be that market gardens (perisheable produce) had to be within half a days walk or ox cart (same distance) of the town they were supplying. Villagers all worked within 1 hours walk of their fields (farmers lived in hamlets and vilages not on the farm itself, as the term farm actually has a quite different meaning at this stage in history, being a verb).
4. infrastructure is be built. the use of golems will reduce the 1000s of tons of horse and oxen manure on the streets and reduce the noisome smell and noxious vapours.
5. common diseases will be eradicated, such as malaria, bubonic plague.
6. death rate by disease will dramtically fall, survival to 15 years (breeding) will be more common and manslaughter may now acocunt for 70% of adult deaths. 

Summary: Urban populations can be much bigger than historical towns, although the towns will have a greater population density.

Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say, 70. At about 60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20 villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000 people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 + 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125 per square mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The town itself ofcourse would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four storied buildings would be useful. So a population density of 50 per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) town-village complex every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. (a pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes - there would be almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30 miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).

This compares to England where IIRC a 3,500 pop town would have 50 villages of pop 150 each within a 2 mile radius (rural density of (7500/12.5=) 600 per sq mile). Ofcourse it is ludicrous to suggest that England was covered in back to back town-villages complexs. There would be 12 miles between centres (centre of this town-vilage and the centre of the next town-village conurbation) (assuming a regular grid layout) to give a population density of 70 per sq mile. This is one 2 mile radius town-village every 2 to 3 hexes! so there is lots of wilderness in between. (one town-vilage every 15 miles gives a population density of 50 per sq mile.)

So what would i like to see in Carzala? 
some areas of higher rural population density (90/sq mile = almost continuous cultivation but with pockets of waste within that)
lots of areas with moderate pop density (50 / sq mile = partial cultivation)
some logical areas with low population (10/sq mile = an island of cultivation well away from everywhere else.

so the average pop density would be 50 per sq mile. There would be avenues of wilds where adventure can happen, and some areas of near-continous cultivation where people will see what you are up to.

I am sure you can think of where these should be - it just means that 'cultivated' on teh map means different things in different areas - so change the map a little to have places like Regars Keep surrounded by wilds etc.

Ian


---- Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote: 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Martin Dickson 
> Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures). 
> 
> At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.  (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).  Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and some work the land around the town settlement (which would decrease the supporting population). 
> 
> 
> One Town needing a rual area of  8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be okay if we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close. 
> Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general feel I get from posts is we don't want things that civilised. 
> But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we aint got enough hexs between towns to support the "town" population in any case.
> 
> One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop per sq mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if the town ends up a village so be it. 
> Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns, populations move and change.
> 
> Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame the unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from Brastor Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say the towns import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.
> 
> I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town. Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited. 
> 
> 
> 
> Helen
> 
> PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for a supply post and as port to move on the rest of the country, that attracted camp followers to the fort and Merchants to the port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had nothing to do with farm land or local urban population, and everything to do with trade routes, the river, and the towns population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and traders.


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oops, lost my direction with this paragraph:
>
Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say, 70. At about 
60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20 villages within 5 miles. A 
village will have between 300 and 2000 people (average 500). Allowing that some 
hamlets would take the place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 
+ 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125 per square 
mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The town itself ofcourse 
would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four storied buildings would be useful. So 
a population density of 50 per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) 
town-village complex every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. 
(a pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes - there would be 
almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a pop density of 10 would see 
one town-village complex every 30 miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).
<

I think i meant the following, but Andrew can probably help out here with the numbers:

Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say, 90. A town of 5,000 people would have about 15 villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000 people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 5,000 
+ 10x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125 per square 
mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The town itself ofcourse 
would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four storied buildings would be useful. 

So a population density of 50 per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) 
town-village complex every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. moderate village based magics would be supported by transport mages in the towns (who link the towns together).

A pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes - there would be 
almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections. This one would need fewer town-mages and more transport mages in the villages.

A pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30 miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness). surprisingly this would require significant, centralised magic to support the distant towns if the lord wanted to knit the various parts together: magic for the roads, magic to patrol, magic to carry messages etc. I guess i now know what the lords mages do each day - darn useful things but not overly impressive.

From this sort of consideration, we can predict the distribution of mages, their acceptance in society, and how things would go wrong if they were killed or otherwise absent.

If we do not like the results of this contemplation, we can do an inverse transform to find out what urban/rural/magical ballance will give the societie we wish to roleplay through.

Goodness but it is an almost warm 46 degrees with 33 percent humidity.

Ian


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Too much population is a bad thing in my view.
(1) it makes things "modern", settled, and civilised.
(2) it gives little room for wilderness, with ruins, forests for ambushes, room for faerie & weird beasts, and witches in cottages
(3) it leads to mass unemployment. Hear me out on this.

In 1320-1348, Western Europe was over-populated. There was an economic depression, with many peasants unable to work the land because there wasn't enough land - they leeched off their relatives. This helped the lords oppress the peasants. The loss of 40%+ of the popn in the Black Death of 1348-9 created a booming economy, freedoms for women (joining craft guilds, etc), physical and social mobility for the better-off peasants and so much work available for the peasants that their salaries doubled and laws were passed to curb wage inflation - unemployment disappeared. Of course this all wore off after a generation, but the population didn't reach its 1320/30s high again until the 1600s, when it could cope. These peak figures of 80+pp/sqm are extreme, and unsustainable without magic or technology or depravation.

If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by witches, etc., then you had better be prepared to have cursing on crops, magical storms, drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we did), and other downsides that come with the upsides of magic. Magical plagues will replace natural plagues if you wipe out malaria (and don’t forget that we can't wipe it out in C21 Earth). And without disease and famine, the popn will explode until internal conflict breaks out. An over-populated, 50% unemployed, 70% of deaths via homicide, carts flying in the food to distribute to the urban poor, type of world is not my vision of Carzala. 80% of magic is destructive, and much of the rest belongs to Binders.



Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:07 a.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala

hi all,

it is cool over here in Mauritania today, only 27 degrees by 9 am and 34 at noon, heading towards a max of about 42 degrees. cool enough to break out the beanies. sunny though and the beach is not crowded.

Well done Jono, and to all of the contributions.

I also like a varied rural-population density. it would be good to take several things into account, and i am guessing the campaign committee is looking at these.

Magic changes many things, and modern technologies, or even predicted future technologies can be used to emulate this. Not that i want a techno feel, just to know what can be done wiht magic, and how that would affect the world.

15th C Europe was rather smelly, much like Paris is now on a warm summer day. People are crammed into small towns and cities and urban drift barely keeps up with the death rate (50% of adult death is by homicide, probably 50% of children die before 5 years old). Urban sprawl is not going to happen as it takes up valuable farm land. There were no sewers nor (clean) reticulated water. I do not think this is how we want to play. Moorish Spain of the previous century had them before the Christian French captured their towns, slaughtered the inhabitants and destroyed the infrastructure, but the mooors were nasty people given to keeping their word and other bad things so they had it coming. 

IMO universally available magic will:
1. improve farming yeilds so a smaller acerage of farms is needed to support a given urban population. the amount of waste ground, which was not normally farmed as it does not provide sufficient yeild to the labour required (IE you get thiner farming it) may increase or it may decrease - an increase in % waste will enlarge the about of wild between each arable area around a village, and may make the arable area quite spotchy.
2. improve agricultural practice so fewer farmers are needed to feed a town.
3. improve transport of said produce so that a greater acerage is available to feed a town. It used to be that market gardens (perisheable produce) had to be within half a days walk or ox cart (same distance) of the town they were supplying. Villagers all worked within 1 hours walk of their fields (farmers lived in hamlets and vilages not on the farm itself, as the term farm actually has a quite different meaning at this stage in history, being a verb).
4. infrastructure is be built. the use of golems will reduce the 1000s of tons of horse and oxen manure on the streets and reduce the noisome smell and noxious vapours.
5. common diseases will be eradicated, such as malaria, bubonic plague.
6. death rate by disease will dramtically fall, survival to 15 years (breeding) will be more common and manslaughter may now acocunt for 70% of adult deaths. 

Summary: Urban populations can be much bigger than historical towns, although the towns will have a greater population density.

Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say, 70. At about 60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20 villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000 people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 + 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125 per square mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The town itself ofcourse would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four storied buildings would be useful. So a population density of 50 per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) town-village complex every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. (a pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes - there would be almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30 miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).

This compares to England where IIRC a 3,500 pop town would have 50 villages of pop 150 each within a 2 mile radius (rural density of (7500/12.5=) 600 per sq mile). Ofcourse it is ludicrous to suggest that England was covered in back to back town-villages complexs. There would be 12 miles between centres (centre of this town-vilage and the centre of the next town-village conurbation) (assuming a regular grid layout) to give a population density of 70 per sq mile. This is one 2 mile radius town-village every 2 to 3 hexes! so there is lots of wilderness in between. (one town-vilage every 15 miles gives a population density of 50 per sq mile.)

So what would i like to see in Carzala? 
some areas of higher rural population density (90/sq mile = almost continuous cultivation but with pockets of waste within that) lots of areas with moderate pop density (50 / sq mile = partial cultivation) some logical areas with low population (10/sq mile = an island of cultivation well away from everywhere else.

so the average pop density would be 50 per sq mile. There would be avenues of wilds where adventure can happen, and some areas of near-continous cultivation where people will see what you are up to.

I am sure you can think of where these should be - it just means that 'cultivated' on teh map means different things in different areas - so change the map a little to have places like Regars Keep surrounded by wilds etc.

Ian


---- Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote: 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Martin Dickson
> Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked too hard at his figures). 
> 
> At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.  (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).  Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and some work the land around the town settlement (which would decrease the supporting population). 
> 
> 
> One Town needing a rual area of  8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be okay if we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close. 
> Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general feel I get from posts is we don't want things that civilised. 
> But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we aint got enough hexs between towns to support the "town" population in any case.
> 
> One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop per sq mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if the town ends up a village so be it. 
> Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns, populations move and change.
> 
> Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame the unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from Brastor Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say the towns import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.
> 
> I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town. Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited. 
> 
> 
> 
> Helen
> 
> PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for a supply post and as port to move on the rest of the country, that attracted camp followers to the fort and Merchants to the port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had nothing to do with farm land or local urban population, and everything to do with trade routes, the river, and the towns population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and traders.


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Hi all,

In truth I do not mind what all the numebrs work out at. I do think I would
like to work from the ground up instead of top down.
To this end I have made a map of Carzala with place names on it. All of it
can be changed if people wish. The URL (600k) is:
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Jono_Bean#Carzala_Maps.


Little point in any of the numbers without a common point within the game to
focus on (at game time) and in my book thats a map.

Given that this map could - if we wish server as a good starting point for
pratical playing reasons, we can use it now, lets change stuff to
fit the map and this does mean a lower population that 250k people.

It does given the number of locations on it support more of Andrews/Martins
view/desire for lower population that what I was at first surgesting.
I think someone else can make the numbers work, and I would like to pick
Andrew as a random dictactor on the subject.
Its not a big deal so go with one persons view, as long as they can express
it in writting, and are willing too?

Are others willing to support Andrew doing this?
Is Andrew willing to do it and write it up?

Jono

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
> Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 8:17 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
>
> Too much population is a bad thing in my view.
> (1) it makes things "modern", settled, and civilised.
> (2) it gives little room for wilderness, with ruins, forests for
> ambushes, room for faerie & weird beasts, and witches in cottages
> (3) it leads to mass unemployment. Hear me out on this.
>
> In 1320-1348, Western Europe was over-populated. There was an
> economic depression, with many peasants unable to work the land
> because there wasn't enough land - they leeched off their
> relatives. This helped the lords oppress the peasants. The loss
> of 40%+ of the popn in the Black Death of 1348-9 created a
> booming economy, freedoms for women (joining craft guilds, etc),
> physical and social mobility for the better-off peasants and so
> much work available for the peasants that their salaries doubled
> and laws were passed to curb wage inflation - unemployment
> disappeared. Of course this all wore off after a generation, but
> the population didn't reach its 1320/30s high again until the
> 1600s, when it could cope. These peak figures of 80+pp/sqm are
> extreme, and unsustainable without magic or technology or depravation.
>
> If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by
> witches, etc., then you had better be prepared to have cursing on
> crops, magical storms, drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we
> did), and other downsides that come with the upsides of magic.
> Magical plagues will replace natural plagues if you wipe out
> malaria (and don’t forget that we can't wipe it out in C21
> Earth). And without disease and famine, the popn will explode
> until internal conflict breaks out. An over-populated, 50%
> unemployed, 70% of deaths via homicide, carts flying in the food
> to distribute to the urban poor, type of world is not my vision
> of Carzala. 80% of magic is destructive, and much of the rest
> belongs to Binders.
>
>
>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:07 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
> hi all,
>
> it is cool over here in Mauritania today, only 27 degrees by 9 am
> and 34 at noon, heading towards a max of about 42 degrees. cool
> enough to break out the beanies. sunny though and the beach is
> not crowded.
>
> Well done Jono, and to all of the contributions.
>
> I also like a varied rural-population density. it would be good
> to take several things into account, and i am guessing the
> campaign committee is looking at these.
>
> Magic changes many things, and modern technologies, or even
> predicted future technologies can be used to emulate this. Not
> that i want a techno feel, just to know what can be done wiht
> magic, and how that would affect the world.
>
> 15th C Europe was rather smelly, much like Paris is now on a warm
> summer day. People are crammed into small towns and cities and
> urban drift barely keeps up with the death rate (50% of adult
> death is by homicide, probably 50% of children die before 5 years
> old). Urban sprawl is not going to happen as it takes up valuable
> farm land. There were no sewers nor (clean) reticulated water. I
> do not think this is how we want to play. Moorish Spain of the
> previous century had them before the Christian French captured
> their towns, slaughtered the inhabitants and destroyed the
> infrastructure, but the mooors were nasty people given to keeping
> their word and other bad things so they had it coming.
>
> IMO universally available magic will:
> 1. improve farming yeilds so a smaller acerage of farms is needed
> to support a given urban population. the amount of waste ground,
> which was not normally farmed as it does not provide sufficient
> yeild to the labour required (IE you get thiner farming it) may
> increase or it may decrease - an increase in % waste will enlarge
> the about of wild between each arable area around a village, and
> may make the arable area quite spotchy.
> 2. improve agricultural practice so fewer farmers are needed to
> feed a town.
> 3. improve transport of said produce so that a greater acerage is
> available to feed a town. It used to be that market gardens
> (perisheable produce) had to be within half a days walk or ox
> cart (same distance) of the town they were supplying. Villagers
> all worked within 1 hours walk of their fields (farmers lived in
> hamlets and vilages not on the farm itself, as the term farm
> actually has a quite different meaning at this stage in history,
> being a verb).
> 4. infrastructure is be built. the use of golems will reduce the
> 1000s of tons of horse and oxen manure on the streets and reduce
> the noisome smell and noxious vapours.
> 5. common diseases will be eradicated, such as malaria, bubonic plague.
> 6. death rate by disease will dramtically fall, survival to 15
> years (breeding) will be more common and manslaughter may now
> acocunt for 70% of adult deaths.
>
> Summary: Urban populations can be much bigger than historical
> towns, although the towns will have a greater population density.
>
> Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say,
> 70. At about 60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20
> villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000
> people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the
> place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 +
> 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125
> per square mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The
> town itself ofcourse would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four
> storied buildings would be useful. So a population density of 50
> per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) town-village complex
> every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. (a
> pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes -
> there would be almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a
> pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30
> miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).
>
> This compares to England where IIRC a 3,500 pop town would have
> 50 villages of pop 150 each within a 2 mile radius (rural density
> of (7500/12.5=) 600 per sq mile). Ofcourse it is ludicrous to
> suggest that England was covered in back to back town-villages
> complexs. There would be 12 miles between centres (centre of this
> town-vilage and the centre of the next town-village conurbation)
> (assuming a regular grid layout) to give a population density of
> 70 per sq mile. This is one 2 mile radius town-village every 2 to
> 3 hexes! so there is lots of wilderness in between. (one
> town-vilage every 15 miles gives a population density of 50 per sq mile.)
>
> So what would i like to see in Carzala?
> some areas of higher rural population density (90/sq mile =
> almost continuous cultivation but with pockets of waste within
> that) lots of areas with moderate pop density (50 / sq mile =
> partial cultivation) some logical areas with low population
> (10/sq mile = an island of cultivation well away from everywhere else.
>
> so the average pop density would be 50 per sq mile. There would
> be avenues of wilds where adventure can happen, and some areas of
> near-continous cultivation where people will see what you are up to.
>
> I am sure you can think of where these should be - it just means
> that 'cultivated' on teh map means different things in different
> areas - so change the map a little to have places like Regars
> Keep surrounded by wilds etc.
>
> Ian
>
>
> ---- Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Martin Dickson
> > Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like
> Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its
> pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it
> (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala
> at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked
> too hard at his figures).
> >
> > At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.
>  (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).
> Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and
> some work the land around the town settlement (which would
> decrease the supporting population).
> >
> >
> > One Town needing a rual area of  8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be
> okay if we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close.
> > Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general
> feel I get from posts is we don't want things that civilised.
> > But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we
> aint got enough hexs between towns to support the "town"
> population in any case.
> >
> > One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop
> per sq mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if
> the town ends up a village so be it.
> > Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by
> refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now
> drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns,
> populations move and change.
> >
> > Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame
> the unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from
> Brastor Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say
> the towns import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.
> >
> > I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town.
> Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited.
> >
> >
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for
> a supply post and as port to move on the rest of the country,
> that attracted camp followers to the fort and Merchants to the
> port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had
> nothing to do with farm land or local urban population, and
> everything to do with trade routes, the river, and the towns
> population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and traders.
>
>
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On 7/10/06, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we aint
> got enough hexs between towns to support the "town" population in any case.
>
> One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop per sq
> mile we like...
>

Actually, I think the solution is to throw out the NEW figures. :-)

Northfield (for instance) has an OLD figure (Frontiers of Alusia guide)
population of 400-600 (big village), but a NEW population figure (currently
on the wiki) of 2600, making it a town in need of rural support.

Of the 7 big villages in the named in the guide, (including Venture with its
old pop of 900), 5 of them have been elevated to towns (assuming a break
point of 1k people).

Not sure where all these figures have come from -- I don't believe there has
ever been an organized intent towards increasing Carzala's population in
this way.

...then rework the town figures to match and if the town ends up a village
> so be it.
> Blame the war...
>

Absolutely.  The end of the war, the repopulation of Brastor (or is that
re-repopulation) are good reason for population adjustment in Carzala.

Most people seem to want a less rather than more populous "home counties"
area so we should generally be dropping numbers rather than increasing.

Reducing some (all) of these village to town increases back to villages
would significantly reduce the required rural support population.

Cheers,
Martin

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On 7/10/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Helen Saggers</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:helen@owbn.net.nz">helen@owbn.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>





<div bgcolor="#ffffff" background="http://"></div><div><span class="q">
<div><br><font face="Arial" size="2"></font></div></span></div><div><div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">But what ever our per sq mile 
numbers,&nbsp;we're screwed cause we aint got&nbsp;enough hexs between towns to 
support the &quot;town&quot; population in any case.</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">One solution is to throw out all the 
old figures work out a pop per sq mile we like...</font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Actually, I think the solution is to throw out the NEW figures. :-)<br><br>Northfield (for instance) has an OLD figure (Frontiers of Alusia guide) population of 400-600 (big village), but a NEW population figure (currently on the wiki) of 2600, making it a town in need of rural support.
<br><br>Of the 7 big villages in the named in the guide, (including Venture with its old pop of 900), 5 of them have been elevated to towns (assuming a break point of 1k people).<br><br>Not sure where all these figures have come from -- I don't believe there has ever been an organized intent towards increasing Carzala's population in this way.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div><div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">...then rework the town figures to 
match and if the town ends up a village so be it. </font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial" size="2">Blame the war...</font></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Absolutely.&nbsp; The end of the war, the repopulation of Brastor (or is that re-repopulation) are good reason for population adjustment in Carzala.
<br><br>Most people seem to want a less rather than more populous &quot;home counties&quot; area so we should generally be dropping numbers rather than increasing.<br><br>Reducing some (all) of these village to town increases back to villages would significantly reduce the required rural support population.
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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<html>

<P>Jono, you are absolutely correct that a visual representation like a map is an extremely important and powerful focus but "the numbers", however arbitrarily arrived at, are implicit in the representation.&nbsp; Relative distance and scale are quite obvious, being the point of most maps, but even they tell us how far someone would have to travel to get help or how many "locals" might turn up at a fair (or for a witch-burning).&nbsp; That sort of thing occurs even with my non-grasp of medieval demographics and it's arcana.</P>
<P>As a map is (usually) an abstraction of data such as distance and geography, it is about as "top down" as it is possible to get, so it is better to get an idea of what we want to accomplish first.</P>
<P>Before we elect a Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are not talking just about the changing abstract population numbers, but the setting of all of the local adventures and many adventurer's home-lives, and how we want to alter it.</P>
<P>I see from the Wiki history you've been updating the population numbers yourself, whereabouts did these changes come from and what events prompted them to occur?&nbsp; And what would you like to see happen?</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&lt;personal note&gt;</P>
<P>The map you have been working on is a fine map, but it seems quite at odds with what I have "seen" while I've been playing the game.&nbsp; There are apparently 40+ settlements that I've never heard the names of (or mentioned to my players) and Carzala suddenly seems like a very busy, crowded place.&nbsp; I understand that it could be a concatination of the all the PC homesteads and farms that people have told you about, but even for 20+ years of Guild meddling in the region, it still seems a drastic change.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>ben<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<B>On Tue Jul 11 8:47 , Jonathan Bean - TME &lt;Jonathan@tme.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
<BR>
</P></B>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
In truth I do not mind what all the numebrs work out at. I do think I would<BR>
like to work from the ground up instead of top down.<BR>
To this end I have made a map of Carzala with place names on it. All of it<BR>
can be changed if people wish. The URL (600k) is:<BR>
<A href="parse.pl?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dragonquest.org.nz%2Fdqwiki%2Findex.php%2FJono_Bean%23Carzala_Maps" target=_blank><SPAN class=links>http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Jono_Bean#Carzala_Maps</SPAN></A>.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Little point in any of the numbers without a common point within the game to<BR>
focus on (at game time) and in my book thats a map.<BR>
<BR>
Given that this map could - if we wish server as a good starting point for<BR>
pratical playing reasons, we can use it now, lets change stuff to<BR>
fit the map and this does mean a lower population that 250k people.<BR>
<BR>
It does given the number of locations on it support more of Andrews/Martins<BR>
view/desire for lower population that what I was at first surgesting.<BR>
I think someone else can make the numbers work, and I would like to pick<BR>
Andrew as a random dictactor on the subject.<BR>
Its not a big deal so go with one persons view, as long as they can express<BR>
it in writting, and are willing too?<BR>
<BR>
Are others willing to support Andrew doing this?<BR>
Is Andrew willing to do it and write it up?<BR>
<BR>
Jono<BR>
<BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; From: <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A> [<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('<a href=" javascript:top.opencompose(?dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz?,??,??,??)?><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A>','','','')"&gt;<SPAN class=links><A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A></SPAN></A>]On</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 8:17 a.m.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; To: <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A></FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Too much population is a bad thing in my view.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (1) it makes things "modern", settled, and civilised.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (2) it gives little room for wilderness, with ruins, forests for</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; ambushes, room for faerie & weird beasts, and witches in cottages</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (3) it leads to mass unemployment. Hear me out on this.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; In 1320-1348, Western Europe was over-populated. There was an</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; economic depression, with many peasants unable to work the land</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; because there wasn't enough land - they leeched off their</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; relatives. This helped the lords oppress the peasants. The loss</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; of 40%+ of the popn in the Black Death of 1348-9 created a</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; booming economy, freedoms for women (joining craft guilds, etc),</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; physical and social mobility for the better-off peasants and so</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; much work available for the peasants that their salaries doubled</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; and laws were passed to curb wage inflation - unemployment</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; disappeared. Of course this all wore off after a generation, but</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the population didn't reach its 1320/30s high again until the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 1600s, when it could cope. These peak figures of 80+pp/sqm are</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; extreme, and unsustainable without magic or technology or depravation.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; witches, etc., then you had better be prepared to have cursing on</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; crops, magical storms, drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; did), and other downsides that come with the upsides of magic.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Magical plagues will replace natural plagues if you wipe out</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; malaria (and don?t forget that we can't wipe it out in C21</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Earth). And without disease and famine, the popn will explode</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; until internal conflict breaks out. An over-populated, 50%</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; unemployed, 70% of deaths via homicide, carts flying in the food</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; to distribute to the urban poor, type of world is not my vision</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; of Carzala. 80% of magic is destructive, and much of the rest</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; belongs to Binders.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Andrew</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; -----Original Message-----</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; From: <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A> [<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('<a href=" javascript:top.opencompose(?dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz?,??,??,??)?><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A>','','','')"&gt;<SPAN class=links><A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A></SPAN></A>] On</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Behalf Of <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</SPAN></A></FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:07 a.m.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; To: <A href="javascript:top.opencompose('dq@dq.sf.org.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>dq@dq.sf.org.nz</SPAN></A></FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; hi all,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; it is cool over here in Mauritania today, only 27 degrees by 9 am</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; and 34 at noon, heading towards a max of about 42 degrees. cool</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; enough to break out the beanies. sunny though and the beach is</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; not crowded.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Well done Jono, and to all of the contributions.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; I also like a varied rural-population density. it would be good</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; to take several things into account, and i am guessing the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; campaign committee is looking at these.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Magic changes many things, and modern technologies, or even</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; predicted future technologies can be used to emulate this. Not</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; that i want a techno feel, just to know what can be done wiht</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; magic, and how that would affect the world.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 15th C Europe was rather smelly, much like Paris is now on a warm</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; summer day. People are crammed into small towns and cities and</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; urban drift barely keeps up with the death rate (50% of adult</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; death is by homicide, probably 50% of children die before 5 years</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; old). Urban sprawl is not going to happen as it takes up valuable</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; farm land. There were no sewers nor (clean) reticulated water. I</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; do not think this is how we want to play. Moorish Spain of the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; previous century had them before the Christian French captured</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; their towns, slaughtered the inhabitants and destroyed the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; infrastructure, but the mooors were nasty people given to keeping</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; their word and other bad things so they had it coming.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; IMO universally available magic will:</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 1. improve farming yeilds so a smaller acerage of farms is needed</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; to support a given urban population. the amount of waste ground,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; which was not normally farmed as it does not provide sufficient</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; yeild to the labour required (IE you get thiner farming it) may</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; increase or it may decrease - an increase in % waste will enlarge</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the about of wild between each arable area around a village, and</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; may make the arable area quite spotchy.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 2. improve agricultural practice so fewer farmers are needed to</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; feed a town.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 3. improve transport of said produce so that a greater acerage is</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; available to feed a town. It used to be that market gardens</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (perisheable produce) had to be within half a days walk or ox</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; cart (same distance) of the town they were supplying. Villagers</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; all worked within 1 hours walk of their fields (farmers lived in</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; hamlets and vilages not on the farm itself, as the term farm</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; actually has a quite different meaning at this stage in history,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; being a verb).</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 4. infrastructure is be built. the use of golems will reduce the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 1000s of tons of horse and oxen manure on the streets and reduce</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the noisome smell and noxious vapours.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 5. common diseases will be eradicated, such as malaria, bubonic plague.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 6. death rate by disease will dramtically fall, survival to 15</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; years (breeding) will be more common and manslaughter may now</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; acocunt for 70% of adult deaths.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Summary: Urban populations can be much bigger than historical</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; towns, although the towns will have a greater population density.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 70. At about 60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 +</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; per square mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; town itself ofcourse would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; storied buildings would be useful. So a population density of 50</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) town-village complex</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. (a</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes -</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; there would be almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; This compares to England where IIRC a 3,500 pop town would have</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 50 villages of pop 150 each within a 2 mile radius (rural density</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; of (7500/12.5=) 600 per sq mile). Ofcourse it is ludicrous to</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; suggest that England was covered in back to back town-villages</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; complexs. There would be 12 miles between centres (centre of this</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; town-vilage and the centre of the next town-village conurbation)</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (assuming a regular grid layout) to give a population density of</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 70 per sq mile. This is one 2 mile radius town-village every 2 to</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; 3 hexes! so there is lots of wilderness in between. (one</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; town-vilage every 15 miles gives a population density of 50 per sq mile.)</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; So what would i like to see in Carzala?</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; some areas of higher rural population density (90/sq mile =</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; almost continuous cultivation but with pockets of waste within</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; that) lots of areas with moderate pop density (50 / sq mile =</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; partial cultivation) some logical areas with low population</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (10/sq mile = an island of cultivation well away from everywhere else.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; so the average pop density would be 50 per sq mile. There would</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; be avenues of wilds where adventure can happen, and some areas of</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; near-continous cultivation where people will see what you are up to.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; I am sure you can think of where these should be - it just means</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; that 'cultivated' on teh map means different things in different</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; areas - so change the map a little to have places like Regars</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Keep surrounded by wilds etc.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Ian</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; ---- Helen Saggers &lt;<A href="javascript:top.opencompose('helen@owbn.net.nz','','','')"><SPAN class=links>helen@owbn.net.nz</SPAN></A>&gt; wrote:</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message -----</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; From: Martin Dickson</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; too hard at his figures).</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; some work the land around the town settlement (which would</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; decrease the supporting population).</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; One Town needing a rual area of 8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; okay if we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; feel I get from posts is we don't want things that civilised.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; aint got enough hexs between towns to support the "town"</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; population in any case.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; per sq mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the town ends up a village so be it.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; populations move and change.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Brastor Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; the towns import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; Helen</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; &gt; PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; a supply post and as port to move on the rest of the country,</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; that attracted camp followers to the fort and Merchants to the</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; nothing to do with farm land or local urban population, and</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; everything to do with trade routes, the river, and the towns</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt; population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and traders.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;</FONT><BR>
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Yep good suggestion to have someone (Andrew) do the population numbers.  

Andrews ideas seem not too radical, and to be taking important aspects of
the game into account.  I agree Andrew should do if he is willing.  

Ben I think the reason you and I have not heard of these villages hamlets
etc is that no one took the time to make a map before so GMs had adhoc
villages at about the flight of the wings the party had distance from
Seagate.  I can remember writing down the 'invented on the spot' names of
several such villages (about one shadow wings distance) over the years.  

I have always felt that there were a few gaps re the surrounding area since
Seagate seemed to be a thriving small city.  Its good to see this addressed
- and so long as it is done in a manner not too radical it will be a good
development.

Lets not kill it will over analysis.  Andrews line is good enough and he can
take a range of views into account in working out the detail, i.e. consider
the views of others. 

Hamish   


Hamish Brown
Director

Zenergy
Whole People Co-operating in a Sustainable world
119 Mt Eden Rd,
Auckland
www.zenergyglobal.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Bean - TME
Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 8:48 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala

Hi all,

In truth I do not mind what all the numebrs work out at. I do think I would
like to work from the ground up instead of top down.
To this end I have made a map of Carzala with place names on it. All of it
can be changed if people wish. The URL (600k) is:
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Jono_Bean#Carzala_Maps.


Little point in any of the numbers without a common point within the game to
focus on (at game time) and in my book thats a map.

Given that this map could - if we wish server as a good starting point for
pratical playing reasons, we can use it now, lets change stuff to
fit the map and this does mean a lower population that 250k people.

It does given the number of locations on it support more of Andrews/Martins
view/desire for lower population that what I was at first surgesting.
I think someone else can make the numbers work, and I would like to pick
Andrew as a random dictactor on the subject.
Its not a big deal so go with one persons view, as long as they can express
it in writting, and are willing too?

Are others willing to support Andrew doing this?
Is Andrew willing to do it and write it up?

Jono

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
> Behalf Of Andrew Withy (DSL AK)
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 8:17 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
>
> Too much population is a bad thing in my view.
> (1) it makes things "modern", settled, and civilised.
> (2) it gives little room for wilderness, with ruins, forests for
> ambushes, room for faerie & weird beasts, and witches in cottages
> (3) it leads to mass unemployment. Hear me out on this.
>
> In 1320-1348, Western Europe was over-populated. There was an
> economic depression, with many peasants unable to work the land
> because there wasn't enough land - they leeched off their
> relatives. This helped the lords oppress the peasants. The loss
> of 40%+ of the popn in the Black Death of 1348-9 created a
> booming economy, freedoms for women (joining craft guilds, etc),
> physical and social mobility for the better-off peasants and so
> much work available for the peasants that their salaries doubled
> and laws were passed to curb wage inflation - unemployment
> disappeared. Of course this all wore off after a generation, but
> the population didn't reach its 1320/30s high again until the
> 1600s, when it could cope. These peak figures of 80+pp/sqm are
> extreme, and unsustainable without magic or technology or depravation.
>
> If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by
> witches, etc., then you had better be prepared to have cursing on
> crops, magical storms, drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we
> did), and other downsides that come with the upsides of magic.
> Magical plagues will replace natural plagues if you wipe out
> malaria (and don't forget that we can't wipe it out in C21
> Earth). And without disease and famine, the popn will explode
> until internal conflict breaks out. An over-populated, 50%
> unemployed, 70% of deaths via homicide, carts flying in the food
> to distribute to the urban poor, type of world is not my vision
> of Carzala. 80% of magic is destructive, and much of the rest
> belongs to Binders.
>
>
>
> Andrew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
> Behalf Of dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
> Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 1:07 a.m.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala
>
> hi all,
>
> it is cool over here in Mauritania today, only 27 degrees by 9 am
> and 34 at noon, heading towards a max of about 42 degrees. cool
> enough to break out the beanies. sunny though and the beach is
> not crowded.
>
> Well done Jono, and to all of the contributions.
>
> I also like a varied rural-population density. it would be good
> to take several things into account, and i am guessing the
> campaign committee is looking at these.
>
> Magic changes many things, and modern technologies, or even
> predicted future technologies can be used to emulate this. Not
> that i want a techno feel, just to know what can be done wiht
> magic, and how that would affect the world.
>
> 15th C Europe was rather smelly, much like Paris is now on a warm
> summer day. People are crammed into small towns and cities and
> urban drift barely keeps up with the death rate (50% of adult
> death is by homicide, probably 50% of children die before 5 years
> old). Urban sprawl is not going to happen as it takes up valuable
> farm land. There were no sewers nor (clean) reticulated water. I
> do not think this is how we want to play. Moorish Spain of the
> previous century had them before the Christian French captured
> their towns, slaughtered the inhabitants and destroyed the
> infrastructure, but the mooors were nasty people given to keeping
> their word and other bad things so they had it coming.
>
> IMO universally available magic will:
> 1. improve farming yeilds so a smaller acerage of farms is needed
> to support a given urban population. the amount of waste ground,
> which was not normally farmed as it does not provide sufficient
> yeild to the labour required (IE you get thiner farming it) may
> increase or it may decrease - an increase in % waste will enlarge
> the about of wild between each arable area around a village, and
> may make the arable area quite spotchy.
> 2. improve agricultural practice so fewer farmers are needed to
> feed a town.
> 3. improve transport of said produce so that a greater acerage is
> available to feed a town. It used to be that market gardens
> (perisheable produce) had to be within half a days walk or ox
> cart (same distance) of the town they were supplying. Villagers
> all worked within 1 hours walk of their fields (farmers lived in
> hamlets and vilages not on the farm itself, as the term farm
> actually has a quite different meaning at this stage in history,
> being a verb).
> 4. infrastructure is be built. the use of golems will reduce the
> 1000s of tons of horse and oxen manure on the streets and reduce
> the noisome smell and noxious vapours.
> 5. common diseases will be eradicated, such as malaria, bubonic plague.
> 6. death rate by disease will dramtically fall, survival to 15
> years (breeding) will be more common and manslaughter may now
> acocunt for 70% of adult deaths.
>
> Summary: Urban populations can be much bigger than historical
> towns, although the towns will have a greater population density.
>
> Rural population densities will therefore be between 10 and say,
> 70. At about 60, a town of 2,000 people would have about 20
> villages within 5 miles. A village will have between 300 and 2000
> people (average 500). Allowing that some hamlets would take the
> place of villages on poorer land (pop 100), that is 2,000 +
> 15x500 + 5 x 100 = 10,000 at a population density of about 125
> per square mile, or 100 per sq mile for the rural population. The
> town itself ofcourse would cover less than a sq mile: 3 or four
> storied buildings would be useful. So a population density of 50
> per sq mil would require one (5 mile radius) town-village complex
> every 15 miles or 3 hexes with 5 miles of wilds in between. (a
> pop density of 90 would see one town-village every 2 hexes -
> there would be almost continuous vilage-to-vilage connections) (a
> pop density of 10 would see one town-village complex every 30
> miles or 6 hexes = lots of wilderness).
>
> This compares to England where IIRC a 3,500 pop town would have
> 50 villages of pop 150 each within a 2 mile radius (rural density
> of (7500/12.5=) 600 per sq mile). Ofcourse it is ludicrous to
> suggest that England was covered in back to back town-villages
> complexs. There would be 12 miles between centres (centre of this
> town-vilage and the centre of the next town-village conurbation)
> (assuming a regular grid layout) to give a population density of
> 70 per sq mile. This is one 2 mile radius town-village every 2 to
> 3 hexes! so there is lots of wilderness in between. (one
> town-vilage every 15 miles gives a population density of 50 per sq mile.)
>
> So what would i like to see in Carzala?
> some areas of higher rural population density (90/sq mile =
> almost continuous cultivation but with pockets of waste within
> that) lots of areas with moderate pop density (50 / sq mile =
> partial cultivation) some logical areas with low population
> (10/sq mile = an island of cultivation well away from everywhere else.
>
> so the average pop density would be 50 per sq mile. There would
> be avenues of wilds where adventure can happen, and some areas of
> near-continous cultivation where people will see what you are up to.
>
> I am sure you can think of where these should be - it just means
> that 'cultivated' on teh map means different things in different
> areas - so change the map a little to have places like Regars
> Keep surrounded by wilds etc.
>
> Ian
>
>
> ---- Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Martin Dickson
> > Yes and no. Even going by the Frontiers figures a town like
> Seacroft, population 1300 (and one of the few that hasn't had its
> pop increased), needs at least 12k rural population to support it
> (which given that the Frontiers lists the entire pop of Carzala
> at 12k inc 3k in Seagate suggests that the writer hadn't looked
> too hard at his figures).
> >
> > At 1500 per hex that's 8 hexes needed for that one little town.
>  (At 10-15 pp/sqm its about 50 hexes -- or half of Carzala).
> Another option is that only part of the town's pop is urban, and
> some work the land around the town settlement (which would
> decrease the supporting population).
> >
> >
> > One Town needing a rual area of  8 hexs at 1500 a hex would be
> okay if we were working a blank map but Cazarla's "towns" are too close.
> > Now 1500 a hex is the 70 to 80 pp per sq mile, and the general
> feel I get from posts is we don't want things that civilised.
> > But what ever our per sq mile numbers, we're screwed cause we
> aint got enough hexs between towns to support the "town"
> population in any case.
> >
> > One solution is to throw out all the old figures work out a pop
> per sq mile we like, then rework the town figures to match and if
> the town ends up a village so be it.
> > Blame the war, or the population being previously boosted by
> refugees from Brastor, Novadom or where ever, that are now
> drifting away again. We have all heard of ghost towns,
> populations move and change.
> >
> > Like wise we could keep the current urban population and blame
> the unusally high urban pop on the war, displaced persons from
> Brastor Holding and camp followers of the various armies, and say
> the towns import from beyond the normal local area, just as seagate must.
> >
> > I also kind of like the idea land being worked from the town.
> Things like market gardens, vineyards, or orchards seem suited.
> >
> >
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > PS London was a Roman military post, built at a good point for
> a supply post and as port to move on the rest of the country,
> that attracted camp followers to the fort and Merchants to the
> port, pretty soon there was a town, and then a city. And it had
> nothing to do with farm land or local urban population, and
> everything to do with trade routes, the river, and the towns
> population mix of military, local governors tax collectors and traders.
>
>
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<html>
<BR>
<B>On Tue Jul 11 11:22 , Johanna and Hamish &lt;perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
<BR>
</B>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>Ben I think the reason you and I have not heard of these villages hamlets<BR>
etc is that no one took the time to make a map before so GMs had adhoc<BR>
villages at about the flight of the wings the party had distance from<BR>
Seagate. I can remember writing down the 'invented on the spot' names of<BR>
several such villages (about one shadow wings distance) over the years. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Exactly, I'm guilty of the same, though the recent proliferation of access to maps and other resources has been a boon.&nbsp; I had figured that I wasn't familiar with every&nbsp;passing fancy that a GM has invented over the years, so it was squarely under the "personal note" heading.&nbsp; The presentation of as much (non-contradictory) details&nbsp;about &nbsp;the world is what will make the environment interesting (and easier to run games in). </P>
<P>However, if a change like this is accepted as a general resource it will shape how Carzala is portrayed in games from this point.&nbsp; I'm just&nbsp;be wary about rejigging something as fundemental as that without a clear idea as to&nbsp;what we trying reflect.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>I have always felt that there were a few gaps re the surrounding area since<BR>
Seagate seemed to be a thriving small city. Its good to see this addressed<BR>
- and so long as it is done in a manner not too radical it will be a good<BR>
development.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I'd always imagined, and my succession of illustrious GMs have done much to reinforce this, that it was another of Seagates mutlitude of&nbsp;anomalous&nbsp;characteristics that largely stemmed from the Guild's presence on the hill nearby.&nbsp; While I can see that spreading further than that as well, we get to decide how much and to what degree.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>Lets not kill it will over analysis. Andrews line is good enough and he can<BR>
take a range of views into account in working out the detail, i.e. consider<BR>
the views of others. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Analysis?&nbsp; I'm sure you're not talking about my&nbsp;post, but whoever gets drafted it would be unfair&nbsp;not to give them some idea what their objective is, even if they have carte blanche to sink the whole place and retrofit the indigenous popualtion as Saurime.</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>ben</P>
</html><BR>


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One thing that I have noticed, is that when their is no map, and then
someone like me makes one, then even if its only used by a couple or few GMs
in an unoffical way then it becomes the norm, quickly.

I would like to see the map I am surgesting take into account other peoples
views and understanding of Carzala.
At the end of the day we will end up with a map and it will either be
'offical' or 'unoffical' and either way I expect that it will be used.

So given all of this - I would like to get it roughly correct, other than
just my view.
The other point I have noticed is that no map often means that GMs dont put
in detail.
I also have seen that a few people would like and think a map of Carzala is
a good idea.

So given all of this I think Andrew (if willing) is the best person to put
numbers to it/or other maps of Carzala.
Any feedback welcome, and changes needed to the current map I am happy to
make for people.

Jono
  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Cosmo
  Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:26 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: [dq] Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala



  On Tue Jul 11 11:22 , Johanna and Hamish <perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz> sent:


    Ben I think the reason you and I have not heard of these villages
hamlets
    etc is that no one took the time to make a map before so GMs had adhoc
    villages at about the flight of the wings the party had distance from
    Seagate. I can remember writing down the 'invented on the spot' names of
    several such villages (about one shadow wings distance) over the years.

  Exactly, I'm guilty of the same, though the recent proliferation of access
to maps and other resources has been a boon.  I had figured that I wasn't
familiar with every passing fancy that a GM has invented over the years, so
it was squarely under the "personal note" heading.  The presentation of as
much (non-contradictory) details about  the world is what will make the
environment interesting (and easier to run games in).

  However, if a change like this is accepted as a general resource it will
shape how Carzala is portrayed in games from this point.  I'm just be wary
about rejigging something as fundemental as that without a clear idea as to
what we trying reflect.

    I have always felt that there were a few gaps re the surrounding area
since
    Seagate seemed to be a thriving small city. Its good to see this
addressed
    - and so long as it is done in a manner not too radical it will be a
good
    development.

  I'd always imagined, and my succession of illustrious GMs have done much
to reinforce this, that it was another of Seagates mutlitude of anomalous
characteristics that largely stemmed from the Guild's presence on the hill
nearby.  While I can see that spreading further than that as well, we get to
decide how much and to what degree.

    Lets not kill it will over analysis. Andrews line is good enough and he
can
    take a range of views into account in working out the detail, i.e.
consider
    the views of others.

  Analysis?  I'm sure you're not talking about my post, but whoever gets
drafted it would be unfair not to give them some idea what their objective
is, even if they have carte blanche to sink the whole place and retrofit the
indigenous popualtion as Saurime.





  ben


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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
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thing that I have noticed, is that when their is no map, and then =
someone like=20
me makes one, then even if its only used by a couple or few GMs in an =
unoffical=20
way then it becomes the norm, quickly.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D229083600-11072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>I=20
would like to see the map I am surgesting take into account other =
peoples views=20
and understanding of Carzala.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>At the=20
end of the day we will end up with a map and it will either be 'offical' =
or=20
'unoffical' and either way I expect that it will be =
used.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D229083600-11072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>So=20
given all of this - I would like to get it roughly correct, other than =
just my=20
view.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>The=20
other point I have noticed is that no map often means that GMs dont put =
in=20
detail.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>I also=20
have seen that a few people would like and think a map of Carzala is a =
good=20
idea.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D229083600-11072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>So=20
given all of this I think Andrew (if willing) is the best person to put =
numbers=20
to it/or other maps of Carzala.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D229083600-11072006>Any=20
feedback welcome, and changes needed to the current map I am happy to =
make for=20
people.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D229083600-11072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D229083600-11072006>Jono</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Cosmo<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
  Tuesday, 11 July 2006 12:26 p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] Re: [dq] DQ:=20
  Carzala<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><B>On Tue Jul 11 11:22 , Johanna and =
Hamish=20
  &lt;perfect_brown@xtra.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR><BR></B>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <P>Ben I think the reason you and I have not heard of these villages =

    hamlets<BR>etc is that no one took the time to make a map before so =
GMs had=20
    adhoc<BR>villages at about the flight of the wings the party had =
distance=20
    from<BR>Seagate. I can remember writing down the 'invented on the =
spot'=20
    names of<BR>several such villages (about one shadow wings distance) =
over the=20
    years. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P>Exactly, I'm guilty of the same, though the recent proliferation of =
access=20
  to maps and other resources has been a boon.&nbsp; I had figured that =
I wasn't=20
  familiar with every&nbsp;passing fancy that a GM has invented over the =
years,=20
  so it was squarely under the "personal note" heading.&nbsp; The =
presentation=20
  of as much (non-contradictory) details&nbsp;about &nbsp;the world is =
what will=20
  make the environment interesting (and easier to run games in). </P>
  <P>However, if a change like this is accepted as a general resource it =
will=20
  shape how Carzala is portrayed in games from this point.&nbsp; I'm=20
  just&nbsp;be wary about rejigging something as fundemental as that =
without a=20
  clear idea as to&nbsp;what we trying reflect.</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <P>I have always felt that there were a few gaps re the surrounding =
area=20
    since<BR>Seagate seemed to be a thriving small city. Its good to see =
this=20
    addressed<BR>- and so long as it is done in a manner not too radical =
it will=20
    be a good<BR>development.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P>I'd always imagined, and my succession of illustrious GMs have done =
much to=20
  reinforce this, that it was another of Seagates mutlitude=20
  of&nbsp;anomalous&nbsp;characteristics that largely stemmed from the =
Guild's=20
  presence on the hill nearby.&nbsp; While I can see that spreading =
further than=20
  that as well, we get to decide how much and to what degree.</P>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <P>Lets not kill it will over analysis. Andrews line is good enough =
and he=20
    can<BR>take a range of views into account in working out the detail, =
i.e.=20
    consider<BR>the views of others. </P></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <P>Analysis?&nbsp; I'm sure you're not talking about my&nbsp;post, but =
whoever=20
  gets drafted it would be unfair&nbsp;not to give them some idea what =
their=20
  objective is, even if they have carte blanche to sink the whole place =
and=20
  retrofit the indigenous popualtion as Saurime.</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>&nbsp;</P>
  <P>ben</P><BR>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz =
--=20
  !DSPAM:44b2f04e558033676221168! </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Maps have been done and look nice, let's keep them as much as we can.

Seagate is an oddity primarily because of the loonies who bleed gold into the economy.  A lot of
food is imported partly to support the overly inflated population, but mostly because said loonies
like the elitism of eating foreign foods.

The rest of Carzala should be relatively normal frontier style settlements.  Adjusted for the
relatively high levels of magic (mostly caused by the loonies), refugees, dark circle, etc.

The Key/Interpretaion of these maps can be easily changed.
E.g.
The (Black Caps) settlements are the major village/town of the region and usually the official
home of the local Lord.

The (Blue) settlements are hamlets/villages.

The Wiki definitions can include population estimates and any known details.
Some major settlements will be towns of over a thousand people.  Others will small villages with
delusions of grandeur.

Some hamlets could be as small as a couple of families.

Cheers, Stephen.
All of the above with a silent IMO of course. :-)

PS Did you know that the official population of Seacroft is significantly higher than the actual
population because of a contest between several inhabitants to see who could be counted the most
times.  The winner is reported to have been counted as over 50 different people.
Tax collectors always return from Seacroft well below budget.

btw Hamish, these maps we're discussing are within a couple of hours flight of the guild.  One
days flight will usually take you beyond the borders of Carzala.


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On 7/11/06, DSL AK) <AndrewW@datacom.co.nz> <Andrew\Withy\\> wrote:
>
> Too much population is a bad thing in my view.


Agree with all your reasons.

The primary purpose of Alusia is to provide a basis for games, not to be our
best model for a magical-pseudo-renaissance world.

The majority of the games run are "adventuring" style. This is the primary
scenario / use case for Alusia. Alusia needs to support this use case while,
where possible, supporting minority use cases such as political games. But
support for minority use cases should not hinder the primary purpose.

If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by witches, etc.,
> then you had better be prepared to have cursing on crops, magical storms,
> drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we did), and other downsides that
> come with the upsides of magic.


I think there is room for a middle ground here: enough magic that it is
obvious that Alusia is a magical / fantasy world rather than purely
historical while not distorting the world so far from pseduo-historical that
we loose any ability to apply historical analogues or use historical data.

There is some mainstream DQ magic (i.e. the magic available to PCs) that can
perhaps be more reasonably expected to be "pervasive" than others. This is a
function of its difficulty, area of effect, duration, and to some extent,
college.  A good example of this is Blessing on Crops.  It has a 50+% BC (if
cast rural after-dark), lasts years and effects acres. It also only improves
something: if you don't plant crops you still won't get food.  Having a
reasonable amount of crops blessed will increase yields but overall isn't
that distorting... especially since the spell gives no real idea of the
bonus. (+33% yield is a big bonus, and yet that's only going to up the yield
from mediveal averages of 6 bushels per acre to 8 bushels... which was not
unusual in some fertile areas).

Other magic seems (to me) to be "high level", active, and distorting. Flight
magics last minutes/hours and have moderate BC. If the effects are going to
be on-going (re-cast) the mage has to stick around, suggesting that its use
will be the realm of nobles able to pay for expensive servants/services. The
Duke might have flying scouts, but flying turnip carts will be exceptional
and remarkable.

Elementals fall into the same category... there may be parts of the world
where the trash is removed by elementals, but I would prefer that this is
both exceptional and remarkable (as in, the PCs will remark: "Holy &^#@!
They have earth elementals shovelling manure!) :-)

Cheers,
Martin

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On 7/11/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">DSL AK) &lt;<a href="mailto:AndrewW@datacom.co.nz">AndrewW@datacom.co.nz</a>&gt;</b> &lt;Andrew\Withy\\&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Too much population is a bad thing in my view.</blockquote><div><br>Agree with all your reasons.<br><br>The primary purpose of Alusia is to provide a basis for games, not to be our best model for a magical-pseudo-renaissance world.
<br><br>The majority of the games run are &quot;adventuring&quot; style. This is the primary scenario / use case for Alusia. Alusia needs to support this use case while, where possible, supporting minority use cases such as political games. But support for minority use cases should not hinder the primary purpose.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">If you want to have transport mages, most fields blessed by witches, etc., then you had better be prepared to have cursing on crops, magical storms, drought, invasions of undead (oh wait, we did), and other downsides that come with the upsides of magic.
</blockquote><div><br>I think there is room for a middle ground here: enough magic that it is obvious that Alusia is a magical / fantasy world rather than purely historical while not distorting the world so far from pseduo-historical that we loose any ability to apply historical analogues or use historical data.
<br><br>There is some mainstream DQ magic (i.e. the magic available to PCs) that can perhaps be more reasonably expected to be &quot;pervasive&quot; than others. This is a function of its difficulty, area of effect, duration, and to some extent, college.&nbsp; A good example of this is Blessing on Crops.&nbsp; It has a 50+% BC (if cast rural after-dark), lasts years and effects acres. It also only improves something: if you don't plant crops you still won't get food.&nbsp; Having a reasonable amount of crops blessed will increase yields but overall isn't that distorting... especially since the spell gives no real idea of the bonus. (+33% yield is a big bonus, and yet that's only going to up the yield from mediveal averages of 6 bushels per acre to 8 bushels... which was not unusual in some fertile areas).
<br><br>Other magic seems (to me) to be &quot;high level&quot;, active, and distorting. Flight magics last minutes/hours and have moderate BC. If the effects are going to be on-going (re-cast) the mage has to stick around, suggesting that its use will be the realm of nobles able to pay for expensive servants/services. The Duke might have flying scouts, but flying turnip carts will be exceptional and remarkable.
<br><br>Elementals fall into the same category... there may be parts of the world where the trash is removed by
elementals, but I would prefer that this is both exceptional and
remarkable (as in, the PCs will remark: &quot;Holy &amp;^#@! They have earth
elementals shovelling manure!) :-)</div><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div><br>

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Test message - please ignore this

Keith


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