SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromMichael Scott
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 08:18:43 +1200
Magical plagues will replace natural plagues if you wipe out malaria (and 
don’t forget that we can't wipe it out in C21 Earth). And without disease 
and famine, the popn will explode until internal conflict breaks out.

As far as magical healing goes any truely virilent plauge would over whelm 
healers killing off huge portions of the pop simply because they would be 
limited by time and Ft constraints. Besides in my understanding of Healer 
you either the desease from the pataint which does not stop the spread if it 
is animal or as malaria, insect bourne. Healers cure they don't vaccinate, 
any antibodies magically created dissapear after the job is done leaving the 
immune system ready to be comprimised again, which means they are never out 
of a job.

As to the other points arn't mages fairly rare and don't they like geting 
paid. While there will be some major infrasructure improvements due to magic 
it is uncommen enough the the daily lot of your peasents won't have change 
signifently.

TTFN
Michael

_________________________________________________________________
Find the coolest online games @ http://xtramsn.co.nz/gaming


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Subject[dq] DQ: Carzala Map
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 09:11:57 +1200
Hi all,

For those that have been following this I updated the Duchy of Carzala map I
have been working on with a title, north point, border, and scale. The
map/image is still a large file as its set currently at 150DPI aimed at
printing. We can put up a 72DPI aimed at computer screen.

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Jono_Bean

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Business Development Manager +64 21 173 4060, www.tme.co.nz
TME -it's all about time
NZ Toll Free 0800 55 33 66, Aust Toll Free 1800 30 51 75


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Subject[dq] DQ: Carzala
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 09:13:19 +1200
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This was only sent to Ben not the list so I have posted it again.

Ben said:
>Before we elect a Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are
not talking just about the changing
>abstract population numbers, but the setting of all of the local adventures
and many adventurer's home-lives,
>and how we want to alter it.

I think this is over stating it more than a little. I do not feel that it
will impact that much. Players will gain more of a feeling from any map than
a range of numbers, which often disappair into the background.

>I see from the Wiki history you've been updating the population numbers
yourself, whereabouts did these changes
>come from and what events prompted them to occur?  And what would you like
to see happen?

The Arny's Ferry I was trying to bring in line with events (Dark Circle). It
seems that the wiki numbers have not be adjusted for any of the major events
to take place in the game. The wiki needs to be update with dates. We have
entries like 700 currently and growing. This needs to be Winter 806 -
Currently 700 and growing. Same with Arny's Ferry I updated it to reflect
the game impact of the people fleeing from Barstor Holdings.

Number of population should IMO have grown since the publication of FoA
Booklet 25 years ago, but I dont realy mind either way. As far as what I
would like to see;

Jono

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D035431221-11072006>This was only sent to Ben not the list so I =
have posted=20
it again.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D035431221-11072006>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR>Ben said:<BR>&gt;Before we =
elect a=20
Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are not talking just =
about=20
the changing <BR>&gt;abstract population numbers, but the setting of all =
of the=20
local adventures and many adventurer's home-lives, <BR>&gt;and how we =
want to=20
alter it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I think this is over =
stating it more=20
than a little. I do not feel that it will impact that much. Players will =
gain=20
more of a feeling from any map than a range of numbers, which often =
disappair=20
into the background.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>&gt;I see from the Wiki =
history=20
you've been updating the population numbers yourself, whereabouts did =
these=20
changes <BR>&gt;come from and what events prompted them to occur?&nbsp; =
And what=20
would you like to see happen?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The Arny's Ferry I was =
trying to=20
bring in line with events (Dark Circle). It seems that the wiki numbers =
have not=20
be adjusted for any of the major events to take place in the game. The =
wiki=20
needs to be update with dates. We have entries like 700 currently and =
growing.=20
This needs to be Winter 806 - Currently 700 and growing. Same with =
Arny's Ferry=20
I updated it to reflect the game impact of the people fleeing from =
Barstor=20
Holdings. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Number of population =
should IMO have=20
grown since the publication of FoA Booklet 25 years ago, but I dont =
realy mind=20
either way. As far as what I would like to see;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Jono</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromErrol Cavit
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 09:49:50 +1200
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Bean - TME [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 12 July 2006 09:13
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] DQ: Carzala


 
This was only sent to Ben not the list so I have posted it again.

Ben said:
>Before we elect a Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are
not talking just about the changing 
>abstract population numbers, but the setting of all of the local adventures
and many adventurer's home-lives, 
>and how we want to alter it.
 
I think this is over stating it more than a little. I do not feel that it
will impact that much. Players will gain more of a feeling from any map than
a range of numbers, which often disappair into the background.
 
 

One of the things that the map shows is population centre size (within
certain bands). In order to show it, we need to know what it is (within
certain bands). We may/should work out the sizes by deciding how we would
like the map to look in order to provide the best roleplaying environment.
Part of that environment is a preference for having things set up in an
internally consistent fashion, rather than having elements of geography
scattered over the map in a semi-random fashion.
It doesn't have to be a multi-thousand-word thesis backing this up, but the
process will benefit from a loose framework and consistent set of
assumptions being applied IMO. If someone is willing put the work required
into this, great!
 
 

 
 
>I see from the Wiki history you've been updating the population numbers
yourself, whereabouts did these changes 
>come from and what events prompted them to occur?  And what would you like
to see happen?
 
The Arny's Ferry I was trying to bring in line with events (Dark Circle). It
seems that the wiki numbers have not be adjusted for any of the major events
to take place in the game. The wiki needs to be update with dates. We have
entries like 700 currently and growing. This needs to be Winter 806 -
Currently 700 and growing. Same with Arny's Ferry I updated it to reflect
the game impact of the people fleeing from Barstor Holdings. 
 
Number of population should IMO have grown since the publication of FoA
Booklet 25 years ago, but I dont realy mind either way. As far as what I
would like to see;
 

Good points. Changes (over game and real) time should be justified, even if
it's "the old number was wrong". Again the environment is better if it is
internally consistent.
 
Cheers
Errol

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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jonathan Bean - TME 
  [mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 12 July 2006 
  09:13<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> [dq] DQ: 
  Carzala<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=035431221-11072006></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=035431221-11072006>This was only sent to Ben not the list so I have 
  posted it again.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN 
  class=035431221-11072006></SPAN><BR>Ben said:<BR>&gt;Before we elect a 
  Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are not talking just about 
  the changing <BR>&gt;abstract population numbers, but the setting of all of 
  the local adventures and many adventurer's home-lives, <BR>&gt;and how we want 
  to alter it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think this is over stating it 
  more than a little. I do not feel that it will impact that much. Players will 
  gain more of a feeling from any map than a range of numbers, which often 
  disappair into the background.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=148041521-11072006>One of the things that the map shows is population 
centre size (within certain bands). In order to show it, we need to know what it 
is (within certain bands). We may/should work out the sizes by deciding how we 
would like the map to look in order to provide the best roleplaying environment. 
Part of that environment is a preference for having things set up in an 
internally consistent fashion, rather than having elements of geography 
scattered over the map in a semi-random fashion.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=148041521-11072006>It doesn't have to be a multi-thousand-word thesis 
backing this up, but the process will benefit from a loose framework and 
consistent set of assumptions being applied IMO. If someone is willing put the 
work required into this, great!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>&gt;I see from the Wiki history 
  you've been updating the population numbers yourself, whereabouts did these 
  changes <BR>&gt;come from and what events prompted them to occur?&nbsp; And 
  what would you like to see happen?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The Arny's Ferry I was trying to 
  bring in line with events (Dark Circle). It seems that the wiki numbers have 
  not be adjusted for any of the major events to take place in the game. The 
  wiki needs to be update with dates. We have entries like 700 currently and 
  growing. This needs to be Winter 806 - Currently 700 and growing. Same with 
  Arny's Ferry I updated it to reflect the game impact of the people fleeing 
  from Barstor Holdings. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Number of population should IMO 
  have grown since the publication of FoA Booklet 25 years ago, but I dont realy 
  mind either way. As far as what I would like to see;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=148041521-11072006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Good points. Changes (over game and real) time should be justified, even 
if it's "the old number was wrong". Again the environment is better if it is 
internally consistent.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=148041521-11072006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=148041521-11072006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><SPAN class=148041521-11072006><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject[dq] DQ: Carzala
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 10:11:50 +1200
Hi all,

Ben said:
>And what would you like to see happen?

I printed out the map I made and counted the locations. Here's a ball park
figure as I understand the current map I have drawn up:

Villages 95, Abby's 2, Towns 12, Keeps 1 + Castle Chilton, City 1

Assuming 1 hamlit & 1 village (with a combined pop of 500 between them, and
is a single blue dot on teh map) = 47,500
12 towns at 800 to 1,200 each average 1,000 (marked on the map as low mana
areas [Black stars])= 12,000
2 Abby's (red dots on the map) = 500 people.
Keep and Castle (Riger's Keep & Castle Chilton [Seagate map])= 500 people.
Seagate 25,250

= a total of 85,000

Jono


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Subject[dq] =?US-ASCII?B?UmU6IFtkcV0gRFE6IENhcnphbGE=?=
From=?US-ASCII?B?Q29zbW8=?=
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 10:39:47 +1200
<html>
<B>On Wed Jul 12 9:13 , Jonathan Bean - TME &lt;Jonathan@tme.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
</B>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><BR>
Ben said:<BR>
<B>&gt;</B>Before we elect a Census-taker-for-life, can we be establish that we are not talking just about the changing <BR>
<B>&gt;</B>abstract population numbers, but the setting of all of the local adventures and many adventurer's home-lives, <BR>
<B>&gt;</B>and how we want to alter it.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I think this is over stating it more than a little. I do not feel that it will impact that much. Players will gain more of a feeling from any map than a range of numbers, which often disappair into the background.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I am uncertain whether I can say this more clearly, but maps are&nbsp;GREAT and the ideal way to present both players and GMs with indicative and usefully vague information about the world.&nbsp; I like maps.&nbsp; They rock.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>But a map that suddenly quintuples(?) the numbers of settlements in the area on the doorstep of the Guild, and by implication greatly increases the population in and around Seagate is going to change the nature of the world, and will have all sorts of exciting ramifications.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Personally, the type of games I like to run will benefit greatly from the increased urban population, with it's attendant evils of unemployment, poverty, disease, crime, violence, and social disorder.&nbsp; But&nbsp;I prefer working on darker social canvas than some people do and I would rather give people fair warning before inflicting a genre change of that magnitude.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The Arny's Ferry I was trying to bring in line with events (Dark Circle). It seems that the wiki numbers have not be adjusted for any of the major events to take place in the game. The wiki needs to be update with dates. We have entries like 700 currently and growing. This needs to be Winter 806 - Currently 700 and growing. Same with Arny's Ferry I updated it to reflect the game impact of the people fleeing from Barstor Holdings. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Number of population should IMO have grown since the publication of FoA Booklet 25 years ago, but I dont realy mind either way. As far as what I would like to see;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Jono</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>There will have definitely been demographic changes during the campaign caused the DC, the Guild's fabulous wealth, and the passsage of time.&nbsp; My only strongly held opinion on the matter is that, since we are able to choose the outcome we want, then we should choose the outcome that we, collectively,&nbsp;want.&nbsp; Simply that. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The rest, as they say, is hand-waving and cartography.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ben</FONT></DIV>
</html><BR>


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Subject[dq] DQ: Carzala
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 11:14:25 +1200

Ben said:
...cut ...
>But a map that suddenly quintuples(?) the numbers of settlements in the
area on the doorstep of the Guild,
>and by implication greatly increases the population in and around Seagate
is going to change the nature of
>the world, and will have all sorts of exciting ramifications.

What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was not
there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and Seagate (what
ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you. More likely they
are trying to gloss over it as no map they dont want to define it on the
fly. I have always in all my games had many small places between the towns
as I think other GMs do. Its already marked on the map as cultivated area,
which diven that people live local means that you need villages/hamlets
between the towns regardless of the economic support for the towns that is
needed.

I guess my point is without a map like this, GMs will continue to gloss over
it, the places between towns have always been their just players are not
encouraged to interact with them at all.

The other point is it may be a matter of scale. The size of Carzala is from
north to south about the same distance as Auckland CBD to Wellsford in the
north of Auckland. Its a big area for people without cars.

The map looks crowed but its not. We are talking about around 4-8 miles
between villages. If we increase the size of the paper, and decress the font
of the village names, then it would seem less settled. But real world trying
to keep it to an A4 page is also useful.

... cut ...
>There will have definitely been demographic changes during the campaign
caused the DC, the Guild's
>fabulous wealth, and the passsage of time.  My only strongly held opinion
on the matter is that, since
>we are able to choose the outcome we want, then we should choose the
outcome that we, collectively, want.
> Simply that.
>The rest, as they say, is hand-waving and cartography.

This is not true Ben. When Martin made a 5th Arch Angle, then it was from in
game events and the rest of us had to lump it.
Like this in game events have more value.

Jono


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Subject[dq] =?US-ASCII?B?UmU6IFtkcV0gRFE6IENhcnphbGE=?=
From=?US-ASCII?B?Q29zbW8=?=
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 13:37:45 +1200
<html>
<BR>
<B>On Wed Jul 12 11:14 , Jonathan Bean - TME &lt;Jonathan@tme.co.nz&gt; sent:<BR>
<BR>
</B>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P><BR>
What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was not<BR>
there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and Seagate (what<BR>
ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you. More likely they<BR>
are trying to gloss over it as no map they dont want to define it on the<BR>
fly. I have always in all my games had many small places between the towns<BR>
as I think other GMs do. Its already marked on the map as cultivated area,<BR>
which diven that people live local means that you need villages/hamlets<BR>
between the towns regardless of the economic support for the towns that is<BR>
needed.<BR>
<BR>
I guess my point is without a map like this, GMs will continue to gloss over<BR>
it, the places between towns have always been their just players are not<BR>
encouraged to interact with them at all.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>Excellent.&nbsp; If the rationale for the work is to address that old FoA map underrepresents amount of rural settlements in Cazarla, that's a good reason.&nbsp; If it is to give GMs nearly one hundred locations to add to their local games, that's a fine reason.&nbsp; If it's to take account of the changes that passed two decades of meddling and mayhem have wrought to the place, that is an excellent reason.</P>
<P>If we don't know what you've set out to do, we can't really tell if you've succeeded, if we agree or disagree,&nbsp;or make suggestions without likely pulling in different directions.&nbsp; An objective for the exercise is all I wanted to hear.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P>The other point is it may be a matter of scale. The size of Carzala is from<BR>
north to south about the same distance as Auckland CBD to Wellsford in the<BR>
north of Auckland. Its a big area for people without cars.<BR>
<BR>
The map looks crowed but its not. We are talking about around 4-8 miles<BR>
between villages. If we increase the size of the paper, and decress the font<BR>
of the village names, then it would seem less settled. But real world trying<BR>
to keep it to an A4 page is also useful.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I did try and stress that that was a personal view.&nbsp; I also hold the personal view that Wellsford is only slight closer than the moon, and about half as hospitable, but the comparison is still a useful one.&nbsp; The version of the map you produced is a bit busy looking, but it was the purpose that I&nbsp;was interested in.</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #5167c6 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<P><FONT color=#004182>&gt;There will have definitely been demographic changes during the campaign </FONT>caused the DC, the Guild's<BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;fabulous wealth, and the passsage of time. My only strongly held opinion </FONT>on the matter is that, since<BR>
<FONT color=#004182>&gt;we are able to choose the outcome we want, then we should choose the </FONT>outcome that we, collectively, &gt; want.&nbsp;<FONT color=#004182> Simply that.</FONT></P>
<P>This is not true Ben. When Martin made a 5th Arch Angle, then it was from in<BR>
game events and the rest of us had to lump it.<BR>
Like this in game events have more value.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I'm fascinated to learn that my opinion that the GMs and players of the game have more say about the world than a map (be it from the venerable FoA or more recently) is categorically false.&nbsp; I could accept that it is unconvincing or even held only by myself, but...</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>ben</P>
</html><BR>


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromMartin Dickson
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 13:45:59 +1200
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On 7/12/06, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was not
> there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and Seagate
> (what
> ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you.


Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for the other
settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not as I
understand the numbers.

One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 square miles. Some of this will be waste
area and no good for farming. Assuming the settlers picked the good hexes
this should be a low waste percentage (say 20%). That leaves 16 sq/m =
10,240 acres = 341 hides (using a conservative 30 modern acres). 341 hides
supports 341 households, which using a pre-Black Death average figure of 5
persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total supported population of 1,705.

1,700 is larger than any of the named settlements in the FoA and gives most
considerable growing room before satellite villages are a necessity.

Its already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that people
> live local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns regardless
> of the economic support for the towns that is needed.


Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the FoA guide and
the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.

The question is: which should be changed to fit the other?

Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and farms
end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled, and
with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large villages?

Cheers,
Martin

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On 7/12/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jonathan Bean - TME</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">Jonathan@tme.co.nz</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was not<br>there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and Seagate (what<br>ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you.</blockquote>
<div><br>Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for the other settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not as I understand the numbers.<br><br>One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 square miles. Some of this will be waste area and no good for farming. Assuming the settlers picked the good hexes this should be a low waste percentage (say 20%). That leaves 16 sq/m = 10,240 acres = 341 hides (using a conservative 30 modern acres). 341 hides supports 341 households, which using a pre-Black Death average figure of 5 persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total supported population of 1,705.
<br><br>1,700 is larger than any of the named settlements in the FoA and gives most considerable growing room before satellite villages are a necessity.<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Its already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that people live local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns regardless of the economic support for the towns that is needed.</blockquote><div>
<br>Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the FoA guide and the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.<br><br>The question is: which should be changed to fit the other?<br><br>Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and farms end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled, and with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large villages?
<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></div></div>

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 14:16:13 +1200
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jonathan Bean -
> The other point is it may be a matter of scale. The size of Carzala is
from
> north to south about the same distance as Auckland CBD to Wellsford in the
> north of Auckland. Its a big area for people without cars.
>
> The map looks crowed but its not. We are talking about around 4-8 miles
> between villages. If we increase the size of the paper, and decress the
font
> of the village names, then it would seem less settled. But real world
trying
> to keep it to an A4 page is also useful.
>

As you say Jono things are a question of scale most of us Myself included
have grown up in the cities with cars, busses and trains. The most we walk
is a kilometer or two around the park, the most we run is under a hundred
meters across the car park in the rain.
Distances of miles either seem enormous when we think of walking them or
small in relation to driving (or flying) at 30 miles/hr
The only map most people deal with is the wises road map and we never look
at the scale.

I have a couple of government topographical maps at a scale of 1:50 000, at
that scale 1 km is 2cm.
These are A1 sized maps of  Whangaparoa & Auckland, they don't show
Warkworth it's on the one above.
What they do show is that the old settlements of, Riverhead, Albany,
Silverdale, Puhoi are all 1/ at the end of a navigable river and 2/ about 8
to 10 km apart. (5+ miles)
This says to me that the distance on your map are about right for village we
just need to work out the population.

As to population
I have seen local histories produced by the Silverdale Historic society and
have read old land title records for some of these areas. Most of these
settlements where founded by a single large extended family or two: A patron
his adult children and their families, subadult children by the second wife,
(who was a daughter or sister of the neighbor). Or two or more brothers
(in-law) and there families. Family holiday photos of this period often end
up with 30 or 40 people mostly children.

It doesn't seem too hard to me for the Cazarlan hamlets/ villages around the
12 "towns" to get to a couple of hundred people, most of whom would be
related.
At 1 family a sq mile with families of  say 8 to10  thats 170 to 200 people
a hex. or village.

If those families have 6 or so adults (Pa and two adults sons and their
wives) the numbers of children are greater too raising the family size to
say 20 (mostly babies and little ones) the amount of land they can work
probably doesn't change much but the village population is now 400 ish over
60% of which is unproductive minors.

And just to give you a scale for a square mile One tree hill domain is only
about a 2/3rds mile across east west. So its bigger than Auckland's biggest
urban park.
1 sq mile is about the size of Shakespear regional park at the end of the
Whangaparaoa Peninsula.
And both these parks swallow up 100s an 100s of  visitors a day in summer

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromJonathan Bean - TME
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 14:11:41 +1200
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Martin said:
>The question is: which should be changed to fit the other?
>Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and
farms end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled,
>and with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large villages?


I am thinking that the villages on the map of Carzala I have done - falls in
line with the low population, lots of wild area's within Carzala (not that
the origanal map indecates this wilderness), with over a days walk to most
other places. I see it as very low population area. Yes the map looks busy
but the area's between the villages/hamlets is large.

The area of Carzala can support on paper 200,000-250,000 people with easy.
It can have 600 villages and settlements.
The map currently has 61,000 people and around 100 settlements. Note: This
does not include Seagate. Total with Seagate 85,000 people.

I see this as a low population area, with lots of areas, of wilderness.

Jono

  -----Original Message-----
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
  Sent: Wednesday, 12 July 2006 1:46 p.m.
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
  Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala


  On 7/12/06, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:

    What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was
not
    there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and Seagate
(what
    ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you.

  Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for the other
settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not as I
understand the numbers.

  One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 square miles. Some of this will be
waste area and no good for farming. Assuming the settlers picked the good
hexes this should be a low waste percentage (say 20%). That leaves 16 sq/m =
10,240 acres = 341 hides (using a conservative 30 modern acres). 341 hides
supports 341 households, which using a pre-Black Death average figure of 5
persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total supported population of 1,705.

  1,700 is larger than any of the named settlements in the FoA and gives
most considerable growing room before satellite villages are a necessity.



    Its already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that
people live local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns
regardless of the economic support for the towns that is needed.

  Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the FoA guide
and the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.

  The question is: which should be changed to fit the other?

  Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and
farms end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled,
and with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large villages?

  Cheers,
  Martin

  !DSPAM:44b4546b688141288074411!

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D654395401-12072006>Martin=20
said:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><SPAN class=3D654395401-12072006>&gt;The question is: which =
should be=20
changed to fit the other?<BR>&gt;Do people generally want a settled =
Carzala,=20
with villages, hamlets and farms end to end? Or do they prefer a more =
frontier=20
area, lightly settled, </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT><SPAN class=3D654395401-12072006>&gt;and with 1/2 a day =
between (most=20
probably fortified) large villages? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D654395401-12072006>I am=20
thinking that the villages on the map&nbsp;of Carzala I have done =
-&nbsp;falls=20
in line with the low population, lots of wild area's within Carzala (not =
that=20
the origanal map indecates this wilderness), with over a days walk to =
most other=20
places. I see it as very low population area. Yes the map looks busy but =
the=20
area's between the villages/hamlets is large. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D654395401-12072006>The=20
area of Carzala can support on paper 200,000-250,000 people with easy. =
It can=20
have 600 villages and settlements.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D654395401-12072006>The=20
map currently has 61,000 people and around 100 settlements. Note: This =
does not=20
include Seagate. Total with Seagate 85,000 people.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D654395401-12072006>I see this as a low population =
area, with=20
lots of areas, of wilderness.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006>Jono</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D654395401-12072006></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin=20
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 12 July 2006 1:46 =
p.m.<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] DQ: =
Carzala<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On=20
  7/12/06, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>Jonathan Bean - TME</B> &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">Jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>&gt; wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>What=20
    can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was=20
    not<BR>there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and =
Seagate=20
    (what<BR>ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing=20
  you.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for =
the other=20
  settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not =
as I=20
  understand the numbers.<BR><BR>One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 =
square=20
  miles. Some of this will be waste area and no good for farming. =
Assuming the=20
  settlers picked the good hexes this should be a low waste percentage =
(say=20
  20%). That leaves 16 sq/m =3D 10,240 acres =3D 341 hides (using a =
conservative 30=20
  modern acres). 341 hides supports 341 households, which using a =
pre-Black=20
  Death average figure of 5 persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total =
supported=20
  population of 1,705. <BR><BR>1,700 is larger than any of the named =
settlements=20
  in the FoA and gives most considerable growing room before satellite =
villages=20
  are a necessity.<BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Its=20
    already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that =
people live=20
    local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns =
regardless of=20
    the economic support for the towns that is needed.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the =
FoA=20
  guide and the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.<BR><BR>The =
question=20
  is: which should be changed to fit the other?<BR><BR>Do people =
generally want=20
  a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and farms end to end? Or do =
they=20
  prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled, and with 1/2 a day =
between (most=20
  probably fortified) large villages?=20
  =
<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV>!DSPAM:44b4546b688141288074411! =

</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 15:21:28 +1200
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I think what Martins just proved is that Jono's proposed village/ hamlet =
map leaves plenty of room between villages.=20
That over two thirds of most hexes is sill undeveloped land that only =
the town hex would be fully farmed.

As to his question of  weather we want villages/ hamlets, given the =
towns could be just about supported from the land in their hex.

Well, the Travel Guide for FoA describes Cazarla as a fruitful plowed =
fields and rich pastures, it says the largest Towns are and gives =
populations for towns. Villages are ignored. The terrain type is Fields, =
not Fields(woods) or some such.
And right at the end it say you  are supposed to encounter a peasant =
every 2 hrs.
The map implies the designer meant for the hexes to all be the same. =
I've always taken the written description and the map to mean that there =
were villages and/or large farmsteads between the towns.

That seen from the air there would be patches of plowed fields, orchards =
and vineyards around buildings with common grazing land and/or small =
(several hundred acres or more) woods in between. The distances between =
these buildings getting longer and the woods and commons getting bigger =
as you get farther from Seagate and out to the edges of the barony.

Much as Jono has done with his map.=20

Helen
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Martin Dickson=20
  To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 1:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala


  On 7/12/06, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:

    What can I say, first off if you think that the people/population =
was not
    there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and =
Seagate (what
    ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing you.

  Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for the other =
settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not as =
I understand the numbers.

  One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 square miles. Some of this will be =
waste area and no good for farming. Assuming the settlers picked the =
good hexes this should be a low waste percentage (say 20%). That leaves =
16 sq/m =3D 10,240 acres =3D 341 hides (using a conservative 30 modern =
acres). 341 hides supports 341 households, which using a pre-Black Death =
average figure of 5 persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total supported =
population of 1,705.=20

  1,700 is larger than any of the named settlements in the FoA and gives =
most considerable growing room before satellite villages are a =
necessity.



    Its already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that =
people live local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns =
regardless of the economic support for the towns that is needed.

  Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the FoA =
guide and the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.

  The question is: which should be changed to fit the other?

  Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and =
farms end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly =
settled, and with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large =
villages?=20

  Cheers,
  Martin

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think what Martins just proved is =
that Jono's=20
proposed village/ hamlet map leaves plenty of room between villages.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That over two thirds of most hexes is =
sill=20
undeveloped land that only the town hex would be fully =
farmed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As to his question of&nbsp; weather we =
want=20
villages/ hamlets, given&nbsp;the towns could be just about supported =
from the=20
land in their hex.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Well, the Travel Guide for FoA =
describes Cazarla as=20
a fruitful plowed fields and rich pastures, it says the largest Towns =
are and=20
gives populations for towns. Villages are ignored. The terrain type is =
Fields,=20
not Fields(woods) or some such.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And right at the end it say&nbsp;you =
&nbsp;are=20
supposed to encounter a peasant every 2 hrs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The map implies the designer meant for =
the hexes to=20
all be the same. I've always taken the written description and the map =
to mean=20
that there were villages and/or large farmsteads between the =
towns.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That seen from the air there would be =
patches of=20
plowed fields, orchards and vineyards around buildings with common =
grazing land=20
and/or small (several hundred acres or more) woods in between. The =
distances=20
between these buildings getting&nbsp;longer and the woods and commons =
getting=20
bigger as you get farther from Seagate and out to the edges of the=20
barony.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Much as Jono has done with his map. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dmartin.dickson@gmail.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">Martin Dickson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Ddq@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 12, 2006 =
1:45=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] DQ: =
Carzala</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>On 7/12/06, <B class=3Dgmail_sendername>Jonathan Bean - =
TME</B>=20
  &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:Jonathan@tme.co.nz">Jonathan@tme.co.nz</A>&gt; =
wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><BR>What=20
    can I say, first off if you think that the people/population was=20
    not<BR>there before supporting these towns marked on teh FoA Map and =
Seagate=20
    (what<BR>ever their pop new or old), then your GMs are failing=20
  you.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Seagate aside for a moment, the populations in the FoA for =
the other=20
  settlements do not necessitate a plethora of villages... at least not =
as I=20
  understand the numbers.<BR><BR>One hex on the FoA map is approx 20 =
square=20
  miles. Some of this will be waste area and no good for farming. =
Assuming the=20
  settlers picked the good hexes this should be a low waste percentage =
(say=20
  20%). That leaves 16 sq/m =3D 10,240 acres =3D 341 hides (using a =
conservative 30=20
  modern acres). 341 hides supports 341 households, which using a =
pre-Black=20
  Death average figure of 5 persons (BBC's h2g2), means a total =
supported=20
  population of 1,705. <BR><BR>1,700 is larger than any of the named =
settlements=20
  in the FoA and gives most considerable growing room before satellite =
villages=20
  are a necessity.<BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: =
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Its=20
    already marked on the map as cultivated area, which diven that =
people live=20
    local means that you need villages/hamlets between the towns =
regardless of=20
    the economic support for the towns that is needed.</BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Yes, there does seem to be a disjoint between the text of the =
FoA=20
  guide and the amount of land coloured in settled / fields.<BR><BR>The =
question=20
  is: which should be changed to fit the other?<BR><BR>Do people =
generally want=20
  a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and farms end to end? Or do =
they=20
  prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled, and with 1/2 a day =
between (most=20
  probably fortified) large villages?=20
<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromKeith Smith
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 16:54:40 +1200
>As you say Jono things are a question of scale most of us Myself included
>have grown up in the cities with cars, busses and trains. The most we walk
>is a kilometer or two around the park, the most we run is under a hundred
>meters across the car park in the rain.
>Distances of miles either seem enormous when we think of walking them or
>small in relation to driving (or flying) at 30 miles/hr
>The only map most people deal with is the wises road map and we never look
>at the scale.

I was thinking of the early settlement of North Taranaki, where I 
grew up,  and in those days, there were very small farming 
communities with a maybe a hall, a small school, and perhaps a 
shop.  There were lots of little places marked on the map, most of 
which are physically gone now, but the names still remain - and the 
distances between them would have been on the five to ten mile range. 
Farmers would take their milk to the local factory by horse and cart 
and occasionally travel to some of the bigger settlements to buy and 
sell produce.

I first thought the map was crowded, but, upon reflection, Jono's map 
seems to suggest this state of affairs, with every named dot being a 
small farming community, probably clustered together from the need 
for mutual co-operation and protection.  There might not be much in 
each dot but to each small village, that may well be the centre of their world.

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromKeith Smith
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 17:00:47 +1200
>I think what Martins just proved is that Jono's proposed village/ 
>hamlet map leaves plenty of room between villages.
>That over two thirds of most hexes is sill undeveloped land that 
>only the town hex would be fully farmed.

That works for me .. May not be all the hex though .. remember that 
each hex is five miles across on the FoA map.

That seen from the air there would be patches of plowed fields, 
orchards and vineyards around buildings with common grazing land 
and/or small (several hundred acres or more) woods in between. The 
distances between these buildings getting longer and the woods and 
commons getting bigger as you get farther from Seagate and out to the 
edges of the barony.
>
>Much as Jono has done with his map.

Agreed .. miles upon miles of fields etc with the odd spot of 
buildings below .. sort of reminds me of the Taranaki plateau *g*

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromMichael Scott
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 17:57:45 +1200
Maybe the duke will pay the guild to do a Census (or protect the bean 
counters) for post invasion tax perposes?

TTFN
Michael

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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 18:15:57 +1200
Keith & all
(Using Martins figures)
30 acres supports one family of 5, so every village of 500 is 100 families
which farm 100 hides (this figure rings a bell isn't 1 hundred hides enough
to support a knight).
That's 3,000 acres of farms per village, or about 4.5 sq miles of a hex with
a total area of 21 sq miles
So you get a village of 100 houses with just over a miles worth of plowed up
farm land around it.
If each village was in the middle of a hex you would have approx 3 miles of
wilderness between each civilized patch. As Jono's proposed villages are not
so grid like you may get only a mile of woods in some spots and  8-10 miles
of wilderness in others.
I think most of the map is more of the 8 -10 mile or more between villages
than only 5 or less
Plenty of room  for witches houses, Strange goings on out on the commons, or
creatures out in the woods.

And if I'm right about the knight thing Jono's village density fits well
with the number of knights the Duke is supposed to have.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Smith" <phaeton@ihug.co.nz>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2006 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [dq] DQ: Carzala


>
> >I think what Martins just proved is that Jono's proposed village/
> >hamlet map leaves plenty of room between villages.
> >That over two thirds of most hexes is sill undeveloped land that
> >only the town hex would be fully farmed.
>
> That works for me .. May not be all the hex though .. remember that
> each hex is five miles across on the FoA map.
>
> That seen from the air there would be patches of plowed fields,
> orchards and vineyards around buildings with common grazing land
> and/or small (several hundred acres or more) woods in between. The
> distances between these buildings getting longer and the woods and
> commons getting bigger as you get farther from Seagate and out to the
> edges of the barony.
> >
> >Much as Jono has done with his map.
>
> Agreed .. miles upon miles of fields etc with the odd spot of
> buildings below .. sort of reminds me of the Taranaki plateau *g*
>
> Keith
>
>
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>


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
From
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 20:12:03 +1200
---- Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: 
> On 7/12/06, Jonathan Bean - TME <Jonathan@tme.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> Do people generally want a settled Carzala, with villages, hamlets and farms
> end to end? Or do they prefer a more frontier area, lightly settled, and
> with 1/2 a day between (most probably fortified) large villages?
> 

I prefer semi-continuous near Seagate (surounding 12 hexes?), partly cultivated (next 25 miles) and then sparsely settled (one town evry 5 hexes) for the rest. That would give densities of about 90/sq mile, 50, 10.

Ian


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SubjectRe: [dq] DQ: Carzala
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 12 Jul 2006 23:09:00 +1200
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
> I prefer semi-continuous near Seagate (surounding 12 hexes?), partly
cultivated (next 25 miles) and then sparsely settled (one town evry 5 hexes)
for the rest. That would give densities of about 90/sq mile, 50, 10.

To get this sort of thing with the current map all we need do is to adjust
Jono's village population figures.

Make the inner layer of villages large 500 + with some outlying farms, the
next villages about what they are 500 + or - and drop the populations on the
edges down to around 200- 250.

The problem then is describing it and that's where the small, town and
surrounding area maps that Jono's done for Gugnirs Hope etc. would come in.
you can list individual populations, and describe the general land use eg.
sparsely settled with the population all in villages for protection,
Semi-continuous farmland with  the odd small wood, Or partly cultivated with
large areas of grass lands (or woods).

With these small maps you can even go so far as to put in one line
descriptions, eg Luck (pop 620) is well-known for it Orange groves, or
Gowrock (pop 190) has a timber mill, milling logs rafted down from seasonal
logging camps along the sweet water.

Whatever we say it has to be better than fertile plowed fields and rich
pasture to describe it all.

Helen


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