Before I go adding stuff to the Wiki about the river, I'd like to run 
it past people first to see if I missed anything

First off - over a mile wide through most of it's course seems to be 
an exaggeration. Certainly it may be that way near Seagate bit I 
suspect it's more the width of the Waikato once you get as far as 
Ramshead Crossing. Al;so, I was told that it is navigatable along 
most of its length so I suspect there is a regular ferry/barge 
service that goes up from Seagate, all the way up to just before 
where the Gilder Rithe meets the Sweetwater (I assume those markings 
in that hex are rapids)

It would not surprise me if there are settlements near  Ramshead 
Crossing, The Fords of Chir, Briansford, the Fords of Gar, and the 
Jackal Crossing. being the only places where the Sweetwater can be 
crossed (apart from Seagate). Granted that they have been run over by 
the Dark Circle, at least twice, but I believe it would not be too 
long before they are set up again as they would be on major potential 
trade routes.

I can't see why it is not possible for a system of barges and portage 
routes along the entire length of the Sweetwater, all the way up to 
the Jackal Crossing near the edge of the Sea of Grass. There could be 
a trading post there that could trade with the local Plains Nomads.

Has any other Guild party gone up the Sweetwater to it's source? I 
understand it starts off in a High Mana zone and, at the headwaters, 
it is possible to drink from the waters and get Life Aspected.  Also, 
is there any other information gained about the Sweetwater that has 
been obtained so that can be added to the Wiki as well.

Thanks

Keith


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Before I go adding stuff to the Wiki about the river, I'd like to run 
it past people first to see if I missed anything

First off - over a mile wide through most of it's course seems to be 
an exaggeration. Certainly it may be that way near Seagate bit I 
suspect it's more the width of the Waikato once you get as far as 
Ramshead Crossing. Al;so, I was told that it is navigatable along 
most of its length so I suspect there is a regular ferry/barge 
service that goes up from Seagate, all the way up to just before 
where the Gilder Rithe meets the Sweetwater (I assume those markings 
in that hex are rapids)

It would not surprise me if there are settlements near


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On settlements:
Where are all these people coming from.  Alusia doesn't have the huge=20
overcrowded dirt poor cities of the Victorian times that fueled emigration =

to the empty parts of the world.

I would expect it to take generations for areas run over by the Dark=20
Circle to repopulate.

On Trade:
I've always imagined regular river trade to Barastor - but not any further =

because what is there to bring down the river from the Sea of Grass?=20
Horses would be quicker to transport overland.
Also the volume of trade coming from/to Brastor will be low so a couple of =

barges at the moment, going up over the next decade.  During harvest it=20
will be heaps busier.

Regards,
Rosemary



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<br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">On settlements:</font><br><font size=
=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Where are all these people coming from.
&nbsp;Alusia doesn't have the huge overcrowded dirt poor cities of the
Victorian times that fueled emigration to the empty parts of the world.</fo=
nt><br><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">I would expect it to take gen=
erations
for areas run over by the Dark Circle to repopulate.</font><br><br><font si=
ze=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">On Trade:</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-=
serif">I've always imagined regular river trade
to Barastor - but not any further because what is there to bring down the
river from the Sea of Grass? &nbsp; Horses would be quicker to transport
overland.</font><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Also the volume of t=
rade coming from/to
Brastor will be low so a couple of barges at the moment, going up over
the next decade. &nbsp;During harvest it will be heaps busier.</font><br><b=
r><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Regards,<br>Rosemary<br></font><font f=
ace=3D"sans-serif"><BR><BR><FONT Size=3D1><BR>Attention: This message and a=
ccompanying data are confidential and may contain information that is subje=
ct to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notif=
ied that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message or=
 data is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notif=
y us immediately and erase all copies of the message and attachments. This =
email and any attachments may contain views or opinions that are those of t=
he sender and not necessarily the view or opinions of ING (NZ) Limited and/=
or its=20
associated entities.<BR></FONT>
</font>

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> First off - over a mile wide through most of it's course seems to be
> an exaggeration. Certainly it may be that way near Seagate bit I
> suspect it's more the width of the Waikato once you get as far as
> Ramshead Crossing.

I hate to tell you this Keith but the Waikato is just a baby river.
Even allowing for the area that drains into Lake Taupo, it doesn't collect
water from nearly as big an area as the Sweetwater. The Sweetwater is the
main waterway draining the frontiers map and goes on beyond the map, it has
several major rivers feeding into it on the map, and probably more beyond
the map. Its a continental drain, like the Danube,  or the Amazon. These
sorts of rivers 'are' a mile wide over much of their lenght unless they are
constircted though cannons or split into a number of channels over flat
areas.
Just to give people an idea of the amount of land the Sweetwater drains,
lake Gordon on the frontiers map is only slightly smaller than lake Taupo,
and the settled  area if cazarla proper, inside the dark wall, is as large
as the lower north island up as far as Palmerston North, and the distance
between Seagate and Newhaven is like the lenght of the North Island.
You can Put the Whole of NZ, both islands twice in just Half the Frontiers
Map and still rattle it.... leave the Sweetwater at a mile wide.

Helen


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>> First off - over a mile wide through most of it's course seems to be
>> an exaggeration. Certainly it may be that way near Seagate bit I
>> suspect it's more the width of the Waikato once you get as far as
>> Ramshead Crossing.

Further to this, the main part of the Amazon is between one and six miles wide, but the Amazon is
over 6,000 miles long.  I'd estimate the Sweetwater to be under 1,000mi long, probably closer to
700mi.
The Waikato is about 260mi long.

Probably better to compare with the Loire River in France, the Targus in Spain/Portugal, or other
Eurpoean rivers like Rhine, Elbe, or Vistula.

It is easy to find the Length and Discharge of rivers, but width is a less common statistic
because it varies so much.  The discharge (width*depth*speed) is a better measure of the size of
rivers as the three factors vary to generally maintain a constant discharge rate (obviously
getting bigger as it gets closer to the sea).

I would say that the Sweetwater is a wide slow river as it crosses the sweet riding, it probably
gets up to more than a mile wide in several places.  When it runs alongside the mountains north of
Brastor it is probably narrower (and deeper and faster), widening out again and slowing as it
crosses the Sea of Grass but not to the same extent as at this point it is just one of many
tributaries.


Do not specify anything definite about getting to the source.  A few parties have done it and have
had different paths and different levels of difficulty.
What is commonly agreed about the source is that it is a place of life and healing.


On the frontiers map, Carzala is settled and Brastor is settled.  So there is obviously some
reason why settlement has not followed the river inland and has instead jumped across the plains
to Brastor.
I'm thinking raiding plainsmen, goblinoids and other general beasties, and seasonal flooding of
the river turning the surrounding plains into bogs.
Brastor has several natural boundaries so the area can be made reasonably secure by securing just
a few passes.


As to use of the river for shipping, I figure the banks are too soft for horses or oxen to tow
barges up river and crossing the plains to Brastor with wagons is easy so there has never been a
good enough reason to develop much river traffic.

A keen water mage could run a shipping service between Seagate and Brastor but the level of trade
isn't what it used to be, there'd be conflict with the carters guilds, and getting work on sea
ships is easier and probably safer.

Cheers, Stephen.


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I concur with Stephen - oddities offer explanations, and the reasons can give plot devices - yay!

The Frontiers map was supposed to be frontier - odd that - so regular settlements would be less frontier and more 'The Settled Map'. I imagine there are irregular settlements of no fixed loyalty. More like the American west before the roads and railroads.

I am not so sure i agree with Rosemary about timeframes, as humans breed like rabbits and witches keep them healthy, so repopulation (overpopulation) may be quite quick. But if it wasnt settled before, why would it suddenly be a target for settling now? Of course a question would be which race gets going first, as hobbits populate like cream buns. though baking may distract couples from putting a bun in the oven. Goblins?  "óooeu, my horse just stood on something"

I think it is best to leave it alone, and let GMs develop it as they run games, rather than create settlements 'because we think some should be there'.

Ian

> 
> On the frontiers map, Carzala is settled and Brastor is settled.  So there is obviously some
> reason why settlement has not followed the river inland and has instead jumped across the plains
> to Brastor.
> I'm thinking raiding plainsmen, goblinoids and other general beasties, and seasonal flooding of
> the river turning the surrounding plains into bogs.
> Brastor has several natural boundaries so the area can be made reasonably secure by securing just
> a few passes.
> 
> 
> As to use of the river for shipping, I figure the banks are too soft for horses or oxen to tow
> barges up river and crossing the plains to Brastor with wagons is easy so there has never been a
> good enough reason to develop much river traffic.
> 
> A keen water mage could run a shipping service between Seagate and Brastor but the level of trade
> isn't what it used to be, there'd be conflict with the carters guilds, and getting work on sea
> ships is easier and probably safer.
> 
> Cheers, Stephen.
> 
> 
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----- Original Message -----=20
Further to this, the main part of the Amazon is between one and six =
miles wide, but the Amazon is
over 6,000 miles long.  I'd estimate the Sweetwater to be under 1,000mi =
long, probably closer to
700mi.
The Waikato is about 260mi long.

Probably better to compare with the Loire River in France, the Targus in =
Spain/Portugal, or other
Eurpoean rivers like Rhine, Elbe, or Vistula.

The whole point was that you can't use an NZ river as a bench mark for =
the Sweetwater, the catchment area of the Sweetwater is bigger than the =
land area of NZ.

It is easy to find the Length and Discharge of rivers, but width is a =
less common statistic
because it varies so much.  The discharge (width*depth*speed) is a =
better measure of the size of
rivers as the three factors vary to generally maintain a constant =
discharge rate (obviously
getting bigger as it gets closer to the sea).

I would say that the Sweetwater is a wide slow river as it crosses the =
sweet riding, it probably
gets up to more than a mile wide in several places.  When it runs =
alongside the mountains north of
Brastor it is probably narrower (and deeper and faster), widening out =
again and slowing as it
crosses the Sea of Grass but not to the same extent as at this point it =
is just one of many
tributaries.

Agreed except....
Once the Sweetwater leaves the settled area of Cazarla it runs mostly =
though forest or the mountains north of Brastor, until it enters the =
plains in the east.=20
Id say this would be a big factor in preventing settlement and the =
pulling of barges up river, sailing too would be difficult with the wind =
blocked by trees.
Forests are dangerous places, whole armies of bandits raider could be =
hiding in wait along a tow path, or at the ford, and a river boat =
usually has to stop for the night.=20
By cart across the sweetriding was/is probably the much safer, and =
easier route to take east.

Helen

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charset=3Diso-8859-15">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- =
<BR>Further to this,=20
the main part of the Amazon is between one and six miles wide, but the =
Amazon=20
is<BR>over 6,000 miles long.&nbsp; I'd estimate the Sweetwater to be =
under=20
1,000mi long, probably closer to<BR>700mi.<BR>The Waikato is about 260mi =

long.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Probably better to compare with the =
Loire River=20
in France, the Targus in Spain/Portugal, or other<BR>Eurpoean rivers =
like Rhine,=20
Elbe, or Vistula.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The whole point =
was that you=20
can't use an NZ river as a bench mark for the Sweetwater, the=20
catchment&nbsp;area of the Sweetwater is bigger than the land area of=20
NZ.</FONT><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>It is easy to find =
the Length=20
and Discharge of rivers, but width is a less common statistic<BR>because =
it=20
varies so much.&nbsp; The discharge (width*depth*speed) is a better =
measure of=20
the size of<BR>rivers as the three factors vary to generally maintain a =
constant=20
discharge rate (obviously<BR>getting bigger as it gets closer to the=20
sea).</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>I would say that the Sweetwater is a wide slow river as it =
crosses the=20
sweet riding, it probably<BR>gets up to more than a mile wide in several =

places.&nbsp; When it runs alongside the mountains north of<BR>Brastor =
it is=20
probably narrower (and deeper and faster), widening out again and =
slowing as=20
it<BR>crosses the Sea of Grass but not to the same extent as at this =
point it is=20
just one of many<BR>tributaries.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Agreed except....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Once the Sweetwater leaves the settled area =
of Cazarla=20
it runs mostly though forest or the mountains north of Brastor, until it =
enters=20
the plains in the east. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Id say this would be a big factor in =
preventing=20
settlement and the pulling of barges up river, sailing too would be =
difficult=20
with the wind blocked by trees.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Forests are dangerous places, w</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>hole armies of bandits raider could be hiding in wait =
along a tow=20
path, or at the ford, and a river boat&nbsp;usually has to&nbsp;stop for =
the=20
night. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>By cart across the sweetriding was/is =
probably the much=20
safer, and easier route to take east.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Helen<BR></FONT></DIV></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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>On Trade:
>I've always imagined regular river trade to Barastor - but not any 
>further because what is there to bring down the river from the Sea 
>of Grass?   Horses would be quicker to transport overland.
>Also the volume of trade coming from/to Brastor will be low so a 
>couple of barges at the moment, going up over the next 
>decade.  During harvest it will be heaps busier.

Fair comment  although I was thinking that there would also be more 
traffic to Brastor because of all the rebuilding efforts going on 
down there as well.  But yeah .. I conceed that point.

Keith

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<body>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2>On
Trade:</font><br>
<font size=2>I've always imagined regular river trade to Barastor - but
not any further because what is there to bring down the river from the
Sea of Grass?&nbsp;&nbsp; Horses would be quicker to transport
overland.</font><br>
<font size=2>Also the volume of trade coming from/to Brastor will be low
so a couple of barges at the moment, going up over the next decade.&nbsp;
During harvest it will be heaps busier.</font></blockquote><br>
Fair comment&nbsp; although I was thinking that there would also be more
traffic to Brastor because of all the rebuilding efforts going on down
there as well.&nbsp; But yeah .. I conceed that point.<br><br>
Keith<br>
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</html>

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