Subject[dq] Racial Modifiers - Proposed Ammendment
FromStephen Martin
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 08:16:27 +1200 (NZST)
I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial Modifier change.

Racial Modifiers
A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will become 1.0 once the character has earned 500,000 experience
points (before EM is applied).

----------------------

As per previous discussions, I feel that this calculation is more fair and balanced across the races.

Cheers, Stephen.


Jonathan Bean wrote:
>
> I would like to add to the agenda for next gods meeting a proposed rule
> change for the next rulebook at the end of section 2.2
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Racial Modifiers
> A Racial Modifier above 1.0 will be lowered by 0.1 (to a minimum of 1.0)
> for each 200,000 experience points that the character has earned.
>
> Example:
> A Giant starts with a 1.5 Racial Modifier. Once the character has had
> 200,000 experience points their modifier will be lowered to 1.4 Racial
> Modifier. The same Giant after earning an additional 200,000 experience
> points will again lower their Racial Modifier to 1.3 etc
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Jono Bean
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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Subject[dq] DQ Guild meeting
FromJonathan Bean
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 09:42:56 +1200
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Hi all,

=20

I added the Guild meeting info to Google maps.

=20

You are now able to go to:

URL: maps.google.com

=20

Search for:

DQ Guild meeting, Auckland

=20

Ta

=20

Jono

=20


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<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I added the Guild meeting =
info to
Google maps.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>You are now able to go =
to:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>URL: =
maps.google.com<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Search =
for:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>DQ Guild meeting, <st1:City =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:place
 =
w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:place></st1:City><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Ta<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Jono<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></fo=
nt></p>

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</body>

</html>

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Subject[dq] DQ Wiki - Your feedback
FromKeith Smith
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 09:41:22 +1200
Now that we've been using the Wiki for a while, I'd like to see your feedback.

Is there anything you feel that can be improved.

How can we make it easier to use?

What do you like/don't like about it.

If you're not using it, is there any reason why not .. and is there 
anything we can do to help?

Reply either on or off list, or let me know your opinions at the 
upcoming Guild meeting.

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 10:00:10 +1200 
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This is getting fairly messy. Lets talk about the best way to handle it.

How about:

1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a
character's entire life? Y/N
2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most?
A/B/maybeC
3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N

(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system
change.)

If 1=Y but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals.

Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 08:16
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Proposed Ammendment


I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial Modifier
change.

Racial Modifiers
A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will become 1.0 once the character has
earned 500,000 experience
points (before EM is applied).

----------------------

As per previous discussions, I feel that this calculation is more fair and
balanced across the races.

Cheers, Stephen.


Jonathan Bean wrote:
>
> I would like to add to the agenda for next gods meeting a proposed rule
> change for the next rulebook at the end of section 2.2
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Racial Modifiers
> A Racial Modifier above 1.0 will be lowered by 0.1 (to a minimum of 1.0)
> for each 200,000 experience points that the character has earned.
>
> Example:
> A Giant starts with a 1.5 Racial Modifier. Once the character has had
> 200,000 experience points their modifier will be lowered to 1.4 Racial
> Modifier. The same Giant after earning an additional 200,000 experience
> points will again lower their Racial Modifier to 1.3 etc
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Jono Bean
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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<P><FONT SIZE=2>This is getting fairly messy. Lets talk about the best way to handle it.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>How about:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a character's entire life? Y/N</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most? A/B/maybeC</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system change.)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>If 1=Y but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A HREF="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Stephen Martin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 08:16</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Proposed Ammendment</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial Modifier change.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Racial Modifiers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will become 1.0 once the character has earned 500,000 experience</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>points (before EM is applied).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>----------------------</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>As per previous discussions, I feel that this calculation is more fair and balanced across the races.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Cheers, Stephen.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Jonathan Bean wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; I would like to add to the agenda for next gods meeting a proposed rule</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; change for the next rulebook at the end of section 2.2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; --</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Racial Modifiers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; A Racial Modifier above 1.0 will be lowered by 0.1 (to a minimum of 1.0)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; for each 200,000 experience points that the character has earned.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Example:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; A Giant starts with a 1.5 Racial Modifier. Once the character has had</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; 200,000 experience points their modifier will be lowered to 1.4 Racial</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Modifier. The same Giant after earning an additional 200,000 experience</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; points will again lower their Racial Modifier to 1.3 etc</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Kind regards,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Jono Bean</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;</FONT>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Proposed Ammendment
FromHelen Saggers
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 10:07:18 +1200
I like it.
Nice, simple, one number to remember.
A one time only draging out of 10-20yrs worth of old ep slips (for those
that have them) to prove the total.
Then you can get a signed X character has now earned 500,000 ep write up
from the GM you proved your total to, to wave at all the future GMs and your
done.
No keeping track of totals for another 8 to 10 yrs or more as slowly by your
modifer down.
No periodic draging out of ep slips or having do tiresome character audits
every few years.
And there is still a light at the end of the tunnel for those of us with
Racial modifers.

Helen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Martin" <stephenm@aklnz.net>
To: <dq@dq.sf.org.nz>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:16 AM
Subject: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Proposed Ammendment


I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial Modifier
change.

Racial Modifiers
A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will become 1.0 once the character has
earned 500,000 experience
points (before EM is applied).

----------------------

As per previous discussions, I feel that this calculation is more fair and
balanced across the races.

Cheers, Stephen.


Jonathan Bean wrote:
>
> I would like to add to the agenda for next gods meeting a proposed rule
> change for the next rulebook at the end of section 2.2
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Racial Modifiers
> A Racial Modifier above 1.0 will be lowered by 0.1 (to a minimum of 1.0)
> for each 200,000 experience points that the character has earned.
>
> Example:
> A Giant starts with a 1.5 Racial Modifier. Once the character has had
> 200,000 experience points their modifier will be lowered to 1.4 Racial
> Modifier. The same Giant after earning an additional 200,000 experience
> points will again lower their Racial Modifier to 1.3 etc
>
>
> Kind regards,
> Jono Bean
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromJonathan Bean
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 10:17:48 +1200
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Errol said:

This is getting fairly messy. Lets talk about the best way to handle it.

=20

Fine by me.

=20

=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Sales Executive

M

+64 21 917 173

Office

Level 1, 4 Newton Road, Auckland (Click here for a Google map
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Skype

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gtalk

jonobean@gmail.com

real time accountability software for clarity

  <http://www.timedisciple.com/>=20

T

+64 9 361 6500

F

+64 9 361 6504

E

jonathanb@timedisciple.com

W

http://www.timedisciple.com <http://www.timedisciple.com/>=20

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Errol =
said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is getting fairly messy. Lets talk about the =
best way
to handle it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Fine by me.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kind =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><st1:PersonName
tabIndex=3D"0"
style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
w:st=3D"on"><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#52717f" =
face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span
 lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet =
MS";color:#52717F'>Jonathan
 Bean</span></font></b></strong></st1:PersonName><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'color:navy'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#52717f" face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F'>Sales =
Executive</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D5 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D637
 style=3D'width:477.7pt;margin-left:-5.25pt'>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>M</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5" =
face=3DVerdana><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 21 917 =
173</span></font><font
  size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D199 rowspan=3D5 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:149.3pt;border:none;
  border-left:dotted #CCCCCC 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
0cm;height:9.1pt'>
  <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D5 =
cellpadding=3D0 width=3D253
   style=3D'width:189.7pt'>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Office</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
    style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Level 1, =
<st1:address
    tabIndex=3D"0"
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
    w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on">4 Newton Road</st1:Street>, =
<st1:City
     w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City></st1:address> </span></font><font =
size=3D1
    color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:6.0pt;font-family:
    Verdana;color:navy'>(<a
    =
href=3D"http://maps.google.com/maps?f=3Dq&amp;hl=3Den&amp;geocode=3D&amp;=
q=3D4+Newton+Rd,+Newton,+Auckland+1010,+New+Zealand&amp;sll=3D40.03804,-7=
6.30126&amp;sspn=3D0.125644,0.32135&amp;ie=3DUTF8&amp;ll=3D-36.860068,174=
.753363&amp;spn=3D0.008206,0.020084&amp;z=3D16&amp;iwloc=3Daddr&amp;om=3D=
1">Click
    here for a Google map</a>)</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Postal</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:address tabIndex=3D"0"
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
    w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>PO Box
      2343</span></font></st1:Street><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'> <st1:City
     w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City></span></font></st1:address><font =
size=3D1
    color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
    Verdana;color:navy'> 1140</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Skype</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack =
face=3DVerdana><span
    lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Time
    Disciple</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D21 style=3D'height:15.4pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D21 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:15.4pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>gtalk</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
    style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D21 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:15.4pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue =
face=3DVerdana><span
    lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><a
    =
href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a></span></font><f=
ont
    color=3Dblue><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><b><font size=3D1
  color=3D"#52717f" face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F;font-weight:bold'>real time =
accountability
  software for clarity</span></font></b><b><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#52717f"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#52717F;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D221 rowspan=3D5 valign=3Dbottom =
style=3D'width:165.45pt;border:none;
  border-left:dotted #CCCCCC 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
0cm;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><a
  href=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/"><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;
  text-decoration:none'><img border=3D0 width=3D185 height=3D92 =
id=3D"_x0000_i1025"
  src=3D"cid:image002.jpg@01C7F06F.2C6DD4E0" alt=3D"Time =
Disciple"></span></font></a></span></font><font
  color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>T</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5" =
face=3DVerdana><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 9 361 =
6500</span></font><font
  size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>F</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 9 361 =
6504</span></font><font
  color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D21 style=3D'height:15.4pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D21 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:15.4pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>E</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D21 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:15.4pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><a
  =
href=3D"mailto:jonathanb@timedisciple.com">jonathanb@timedisciple.com</a>=
</span></font><font
  color=3Dblue><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
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 <tr height=3D19 style=3D'height:14.5pt'>
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style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:14.5pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>W</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D19 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:14.5pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#52717f" =
face=3DVerdana><span
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  title=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/"><a =
href=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/">http://www.timedisciple.com</a></sp=
an></font><font
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style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
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  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0cm'><font size=3D1 color=3Dgray =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font =
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style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 10:27:29 +1200
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Lets use this set of steps for the decision making process.  Ian suggested
it Errol seconded it and I agree.

The questions I have added address all of the elements of the discussion I
think.

1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a
character's entire life? Y/N 
2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most? 

A = 200,000 per point /B = 500,000 magic Number method  / C = Sliding Scale
starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000 


3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N 

(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system
change.) 

If 1=Y but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals. 

4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N

5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM multiplier and spend that
portion of your ep on new hoopy abilities?  Y/N

Hamish

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Lets =
use this set
of steps for the decision making process. &nbsp;Ian suggested it Errol =
seconded
it and I agree.</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Book Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The questions I have added address =
all of
the elements of the discussion I think.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1: Do we
want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a =
character's
entire life? Y/N</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2: If 1=3DY, Which of =
the specific
proposals put forward do we like the most? <font color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>A<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> =3D 200,000 per point =
</span></font>/B<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> =3D 500,000 magic Number method =
&nbsp;</span></font>/<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> </span></font>C<font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'> =3D Sliding Scale starting at 50,000 ending at =
250,000</span></font></span></font>
<font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>3: Do we =
want to put
the prefered proposal in place? Y/N</span></font> <font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(Note
that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system =
change.)</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>If 1=3DY
but 3=3DN, then we can develop more acceptable proposals.</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>4: Do we make it retrospective?&nbsp; =
Y/N<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>5: Do we make some system to </span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
color:navy'>continue</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> <font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'>with an EM multiplier and spend that portion of =
your ep on
new hoopy abilities? =
&nbsp;Y/N<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Hamish</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 10:30:57 +1200
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Voting option for RM Rule Change

 

I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial Modifier
change.

 

Racial Modifiers

A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will be reduced to 1.0 according to the
following Scale.


1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw

 

Hamish

 







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Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:navy'>Voting =
option
for RM Rule Change<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>I would like to put to the Agenda an amendment to the Racial =
Modifier
change.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>Racial Modifiers<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt'>A Racial Modifier that is not 1.0 will be reduced to 1.0 =
according to
the following Scale.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
1.5 to 1.4: 50,000 raw<br>
1.4 to 1.3: 100,000 raw<br>
1.3 to 1.2: 150,000 raw<br>
1.2 to 1.1: 200,000 raw<br>
1.1 to 1.0: 250,000 raw<font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromCosmo
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 10:48:16 +1200
1:Y
2:B
3:Y (though the point of the his question evades me)
4:N
5:Not formally.  It happens naturally, which is why most adventurers above Medium
DA as <metal voice> "Guild Beast" </metal voice>.



ben


On Thu Sep  6 10:27 , Johanna and Hamish  sent:

>
>RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>Lets use this set
>of steps for the decision making process.  Ian suggested it Errol seconded
>it and I agree.
>
>The questions I have added address all of
>the elements of the discussion I think.
>
>1: Do we
>want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a character's
>entire life? Y/N 
>
>2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most? 
>
>A = 200,000 per point /B = 500,000 magic Number method  / C = Sliding Scale
starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000
>
>3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N 
>
>(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system change.)
>
>If 1=Y
>but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals. 
>
>4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N
>
>5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM multiplier and spend that
portion > of your ep on new hoopy abilities?  Y/N
>
>Hamish
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromMichael Woodhams
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 11:32:50 +1200
Errol wrote:
> 1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying
> for a character's entire life? Y/N
> 2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the
> most? A/B/maybeC
> 3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N

On Thu, 2007-09-06 at 10:48, Cosmo wrote:
> 1:Y
> 2:B
> 3:Y (though the point of the his question evades me)

It is possible that some people will vote "yes" to 1 because they prefer
their favoured RM reduction system to the current rule, but "no" to 3
because another RM reduction system was chosen at step 2, which they
think is inferior to the current rule.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 11:39:44 +1200 
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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Question 3 is so we can have the situation of "Things should change, but we
don't think what has been put forward in the last 2 weeks gives the best
solution that we are going to get."

I think it is a better method than having one vote that puts the current
situation on the same standing as 3 other ways of doing things, or having to
chose NOW between options for addressing a complex, wide-ranging issue that
have been put together in a relative hurry.

Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Cosmo
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:48
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method


1:Y
2:B
3:Y (though the point of the this question evades me)
4:N
5:Not formally.  It happens naturally, which is why most adventurers above
Medium
DA as <metal voice> "Guild Beast" </metal voice>.



ben


On Thu Sep  6 10:27 , Johanna and Hamish  sent:

>
>RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>Lets use this set
>of steps for the decision making process.  Ian suggested it Errol seconded
>it and I agree.
>
>The questions I have added address all of
>the elements of the discussion I think.
>
>1: Do we
>want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a
character's
>entire life? Y/N 
>
>2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most?

>
>A = 200,000 per point /B = 500,000 magic Number method  / C = Sliding Scale
starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000
>
>3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N 
>
>(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system
change.)
>
>If 1=Y
>but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals. 
>
>4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N
>
>5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM multiplier and spend that
portion > of your ep on new hoopy abilities?  Y/N
>
>Hamish
>


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<TITLE>RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Question 3 is so we can have the situation of =
&quot;Things should change, but we don't think what has been put =
forward in the last 2 weeks gives the best solution that we are going =
to get.&quot;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I think it is a better method than having one vote =
that puts the current situation on the same standing as 3 other ways of =
doing things, or having to chose NOW between options for addressing a =
complex, wide-ranging issue that have been put together in a relative =
hurry.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cosmo</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:48</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting =
method</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>1:Y</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2:B</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>3:Y (though the point of the this question evades =
me)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>4:N</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>5:Not formally.&nbsp; It happens naturally, which is =
why most adventurers above Medium</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>DA as &lt;metal voice&gt; &quot;Guild Beast&quot; =
&lt;/metal voice&gt;.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>ben</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Thu Sep&nbsp; 6 10:27 , Johanna and Hamish&nbsp; =
sent:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Lets use this set</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;of steps for the decision making process.&nbsp; =
Ian suggested it Errol seconded</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;it and I agree.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;The questions I have added address all of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;the elements of the discussion I think.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;1: Do we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;want to change the current situation of Racial =
Mods applying for a character's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;entire life? Y/N </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;2: If 1=3DY, Which of the specific proposals put =
forward do we like the most? </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;A =3D 200,000 per point /B =3D 500,000 magic =
Number method&nbsp; / C =3D Sliding Scale</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in =
place? Y/N </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;(Note that this is basically what happened for =
the NZ Electoral system change.)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;If 1=3DY</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;but 3=3DN, then we can develop more acceptable =
proposals. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;4: Do we make it retrospective?&nbsp; Y/N</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM =
multiplier and spend that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>portion &gt; of your ep on new hoopy =
abilities?&nbsp; Y/N</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Hamish</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 11:50:46 +1200 
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Ian suggested votes on individual aspects of new methods (including the EP
values involved). I'm suggesting voting on specific, complete proposals. IMO
There are methods that have been proposed that are reasonable, but grossly
unfair if the wrong EP values are used - I would rather not be in the
situation of voting on such a method when I don't know the EP value that is
going to be used.
 
I think that the retrospective part has such a large impact in this case
that it should be part of the specific proposals. Also, I don't _think_ that
anyone is currently advocating refunding EP already spent/lost.
 
I worded the other votes widely enough so that 5 below could be a future
proposal (if the ones that have been put forward don't pass). If 3 and 5
both pass, we end up with an awkward limbo.
 
I also think that it would be OK for a proposal that failed at September to
be re-submitted at December. This is mainly because the relatively short
timeframes so far haven't given us enough time to trash out options.  People
may think that a better solution to this issue has a good chance of being
thought up given a couple of months - any such proposals should be able to
be put against proposals already submitted. I think it would be a mistake to
have the current proposals being in a position of "if not passed at
September then can't be voted on again."
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Johanna and Hamish
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:27
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method



Lets use this set of steps for the decision making process.  Ian suggested
it Errol seconded it and I agree.

The questions I have added address all of the elements of the discussion I
think.

1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a
character's entire life? Y/N 
2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most? 

A = 200,000 per point /B = 500,000 magic Number method  / C = Sliding Scale
starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000 


3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N 

(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system
change.) 

If 1=Y but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals. 

4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N

5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM multiplier and spend that
portion of your ep on new hoopy abilities?  Y/N

Hamish

 


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<BODY lang=3DEN-US vLink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Ian=20
suggested votes on individual aspects of new methods (including the EP =
values=20
involved). I'm suggesting voting on specific, complete&nbsp;proposals. =
IMO There=20
are methods that have been proposed that are reasonable, but grossly =
unfair if=20
the wrong EP values are used - I would rather not be in the situation =
of voting=20
on such a method when I don't know the EP value that is going to be=20
used.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
think that the retrospective part has such a large impact in this case =
that it=20
should be part of the specific proposals. Also, I don't _think_ that =
anyone is=20
currently advocating refunding EP already =
spent/lost.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I=20
worded the other votes widely enough so that 5 below could be a future =
proposal=20
(if the ones that have been put forward don't pass).&nbsp;If 3&nbsp;and =
5 both=20
pass, we end up with an awkward limbo.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I also=20
think that it would be OK for a proposal that failed at September to be =

re-submitted at December. This is mainly because the relatively short =
timeframes=20
so far haven't given us enough time to trash out options.&nbsp; People =
may think=20
that a better solution to this issue has a good chance of being thought =
up given=20
a couple of months - any such proposals should be able to be put =
against=20
proposals already submitted. I think it would be a mistake to have the =
current=20
proposals being in a position of "if not passed at September then can't =
be voted=20
on again."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D220313722-05092007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=20
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Johanna and=20
  Hamish<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:27<BR><B>To:</B> =

  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting =

  method<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DSection1>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Book Antiqua" color=3Dblue =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Book =
Antiqua'">Lets use=20
  this set of steps for the decision making process. &nbsp;Ian =
suggested it=20
  Errol seconded it and I agree.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"=20
  size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Book =
Antiqua'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The =
questions I have=20
  added address all of the elements of the discussion I=20
  think.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">1: Do we=20
  want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a =
character's=20
  entire life? Y/N</SPAN></FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2: If 1=3DY, Which of the specific =
proposals put forward=20
  do we like the most? <FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">A<FONT=20
  color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"> =3D 200,000 per point=20
  </SPAN></FONT>/B<FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"> =3D =
500,000 magic=20
  Number method &nbsp;</SPAN></FONT>/<FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN =
style=3D"COLOR: navy">=20
  </SPAN></FONT>C<FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: navy"> =3D =
Sliding Scale=20
  starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT> =
<FONT=20
  color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: =
navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal =
in place?=20
  Y/N</SPAN></FONT> <FONT color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">(Note=20
  that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system=20
  change.)</SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">If 1=3DY=20
  but 3=3DN, then we can develop more acceptable =
proposals.</SPAN></FONT>=20
  <o:p></o:p></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">4: Do we =
make it=20
  retrospective?&nbsp; Y/N<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">5: Do we =
make some=20
  system to </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'">continue</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"> <FONT =
color=3Dnavy><SPAN=20
  style=3D"COLOR: navy">with an EM multiplier and spend that portion of =
your ep on=20
  new hoopy abilities? =
&nbsp;Y/N<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Courier New" color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'">Hamish</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTM=
L>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromCosmo
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 11:54:03 +1200
Ah right, it's not just a ballot sheet, but also a flowchart.

Wouldn't giving Q2 and option "D: None of the above" be simpler?



ben


On Thu Sep  6 11:39 , Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> sent:

>
>RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>Question 3 is so we can have the situation of "Things should change, but we
don't think what has been put forward in the last 2 weeks gives the best solution
that we are going to get."
>
>I think it is a better method than having one vote that puts the current
situation on the same standing as 3 other ways of doing things, or having to
chose NOW between options for addressing a complex, wide-ranging issue that have
been put together in a relative hurry.
>
>Cheers
>
>Errol
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>Cosmo
>
>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:48
>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>
>1:Y
>2:B
>3:Y (though the point of the this question evades me)
>4:N
>5:Not formally.  It happens naturally, which is why most adventurers above Medium
>DA as <metal voice> "Guild Beast" </metal voice>.
>
>
>
>ben


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 12:13:41 +1200 
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Simpler yes, fairer, I don't think so.

If a majority of people don't think there is a problem, then we stop
spending time thinking up unwanted solutions.

If a majority of people do think there is a problem, but we don't like the
solutions put forward at this point, then we have a good incentive to put
more work in.

If we are happy with a change put forward now, all good.



A single-round vote between the current situation and 3 alternatives could
easily leave most of the people present unhappy with the result, and no
clear signals on what we should do next.

For example, the Australians recently had a vote on becoming a Republic.
However it was a straight vote between the current setup, and a system that
gave existing politians a lot of power. The current system won, even though
a majority of Australians want to move away from Queen as Head of State -
they just didn't like the choice they were given.

Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Cosmo
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 11:54
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method



Ah right, it's not just a ballot sheet, but also a flowchart.

Wouldn't giving Q2 and option "D: None of the above" be simpler?



ben


On Thu Sep  6 11:39 , Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> sent:

>
>RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>Question 3 is so we can have the situation of "Things should change, but we
don't think what has been put forward in the last 2 weeks gives the best
solution
that we are going to get."
>
>I think it is a better method than having one vote that puts the current
situation on the same standing as 3 other ways of doing things, or having to
chose NOW between options for addressing a complex, wide-ranging issue that
have
been put together in a relative hurry.
>
>Cheers
>
>Errol
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>Cosmo
>
>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:48
>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
>
>
>1:Y
>2:B
>3:Y (though the point of the this question evades me)
>4:N
>5:Not formally.  It happens naturally, which is why most adventurers above
Medium
>DA as <metal voice> "Guild Beast" </metal voice>.
>
>
>
>ben


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Simpler yes, fairer, I don't think so.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If a majority of people don't think there is a =
problem, then we stop spending time thinking up unwanted =
solutions.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If a majority of people do think there is a problem, =
but we don't like the solutions put forward at this point, then we have =
a good incentive to put more work in.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If we are happy with a change put forward now, all =
good.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>A single-round vote between the current situation and =
3 alternatives could easily leave most of the people present unhappy =
with the result, and no clear signals on what we should do =
next.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>For example, the Australians recently had a vote on =
becoming a Republic. However it was a straight vote between the current =
setup, and a system that gave existing politians a lot of power. The =
current system won, even though a majority of Australians want to move =
away from Queen as Head of State - they just didn't like the choice =
they were given.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cosmo</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 11:54</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting =
method</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Ah right, it's not just a ballot sheet, but also a =
flowchart.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Wouldn't giving Q2 and option &quot;D: None of the =
above&quot; be simpler?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>ben</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>On Thu Sep&nbsp; 6 11:39 , Errol Cavit =
&lt;ecavit@tollnz.co.nz&gt; sent:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;RE: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Question 3 is so we can have the situation of =
&quot;Things should change, but we</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>don't think what has been put forward in the last 2 =
weeks gives the best solution</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>that we are going to get.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;I think it is a better method than having one =
vote that puts the current</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>situation on the same standing as 3 other ways of =
doing things, or having to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>chose NOW between options for addressing a complex, =
wide-ranging issue that have</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>been put together in a relative hurry.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Errol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Cosmo</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:48</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting =
method</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;1:Y</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;2:B</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;3:Y (though the point of the this question =
evades me)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;4:N</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;5:Not formally.&nbsp; It happens naturally, =
which is why most adventurers above Medium</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;DA as &lt;metal voice&gt; &quot;Guild =
Beast&quot; &lt;/metal voice&gt;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;ben</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 13:55:24 +1200
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I think that the retrospective part has such a large impact in this case
that it should be part of the specific proposals. Also, I don't _think_ that
anyone is currently advocating refunding EP already spent/lost.

 

Except that it would be no good if the most preferred proposal was not voted
in because it stipulated a retrospective ep evaluation which made it
unacceptable.  Weather we need Ians step 5 at this time I'm not sure.
Hamish

 

I worded the other votes widely enough so that 5 below could be a future
proposal (if the ones that have been put forward don't pass). If 3 and 5
both pass, we end up with an awkward limbo.

 

I also think that it would be OK for a proposal that failed at September to
be re-submitted at December. This is mainly because the relatively short
timeframes so far haven't given us enough time to trash out options.  People
may think that a better solution to this issue has a good chance of being
thought up given a couple of months - any such proposals should be able to
be put against proposals already submitted. I think it would be a mistake to
have the current proposals being in a position of "if not passed at
September then can't be voted on again."

 

Cheers

Errol

 

I really liked 3 steps you proposed Errol.

 

Hamish

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Johanna and Hamish
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 10:27
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Voting method

Lets use this set of steps for the decision making process.  Ian suggested
it Errol seconded it and I agree.

The questions I have added address all of the elements of the discussion I
think.

1: Do we want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a
character's entire life? Y/N 
2: If 1=Y, Which of the specific proposals put forward do we like the most? 

A = 200,000 per point /B = 500,000 magic Number method  / C = Sliding Scale
starting at 50,000 ending at 250,000 


3: Do we want to put the prefered proposal in place? Y/N 

(Note that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system
change.) 

If 1=Y but 3=N, then we can develop more acceptable proposals. 

4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N

5: Do we make some system to continue with an EM multiplier and spend that
portion of your ep on new hoopy abilities?  Y/N

Hamish

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think that the retrospective part =
has
such a large impact in this case that it should be part of the specific
proposals. Also, I don't _think_ that anyone is currently advocating =
refunding
EP already spent/lost.</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dred face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red'>Except that it would be no good if =
the most
preferred proposal was not voted in because it stipulated a =
retrospective ep
evaluation which made it unacceptable.&nbsp; Weather we need Ians step 5 =
at this
time I&#8217;m not sure. &nbsp;Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I worded the other votes widely =
enough so
that 5 below could be a future proposal (if the ones that have been put =
forward
don't pass).&nbsp;If 3&nbsp;and 5 both pass, we end up with an awkward =
limbo.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I also think that it would be OK =
for a
proposal that failed at September to be re-submitted at December. This =
is
mainly because the relatively short timeframes so far haven't given us =
enough
time to trash out options.&nbsp; People may think that a better solution =
to
this issue has a good chance of being thought up given a couple of =
months - any
such proposals should be able to be put against proposals already =
submitted. I
think it would be a mistake to have the current proposals being in a =
position
of &quot;if not passed at September then can't be voted on =
again.&quot;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I really liked 3 steps you proposed =
Errol.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of</span></b>
Johanna and Hamish<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 6 =
September 2007
10:27<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers
- Voting method</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book Antiqua";color:blue'>Lets =
use this
set of steps for the decision making process. &nbsp;Ian suggested it =
Errol
seconded it and I agree.</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Book =
Antiqua"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Book =
Antiqua"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The questions I have added address =
all of
the elements of the discussion I think.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>1: Do we
want to change the current situation of Racial Mods applying for a =
character's
entire life? Y/N</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>2: If 1=3DY, Which of =
the specific
proposals put forward do we like the most? <font color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>A<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> =3D 200,000 per point =
</span></font>/B<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> =3D 500,000 magic Number method =
&nbsp;</span></font>/<font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'> </span></font>C<font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'> =3D Sliding Scale starting at 50,000 ending at =
250,000</span></font></span></font>
<font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>3: Do we =
want to put
the prefered proposal in place? Y/N</span></font> <font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>(Note
that this is basically what happened for the NZ Electoral system =
change.)</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>If 1=3DY
but 3=3DN, then we can develop more acceptable proposals.</span></font> =
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>4: Do we make it retrospective?&nbsp; =
Y/N<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>5: Do we make some system to </span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
color:navy'>continue</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'> <font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'>with an EM multiplier and spend that portion of =
your ep on
new hoopy abilities? =
&nbsp;Y/N<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";color:navy'>Hamish</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</blockquote>

</div>

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Subject[dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromAndrew Withy
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 14:03:46 +1200
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Hi,

What is the problem with racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters
people from taking non-human characters, but parties still often look like
the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) - and humans are the only race
we can really understand / role-play / identify with. Is it just that people
taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) character didn't understand
the cost? If so, is this just a matter of education for the future? Are
people so hard-done by from RM? It seems that many of the old (15-25 year)
characters in play are non-human, so in practise it doesn't seem that
broken. Why are people suddenly bitter now? - have they talked themselves
into a state of righteous indignation over a perceived (or possibly actual)
slight? Or what has brought this to a head? Possibly the number of giants in
play? ( which should be well below 6% - but that's another issue). Should we
just change the Giant & Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?

 

This is a serious set of questions (as well as a little bit of a diatribe).
If everyone has the same specific problem, we may be able to produce a
specific solution. If everyone has a different problem, then either a
wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, or maybe there is
no single solution for the problems. People seem to be baying for a
solution, not identifying the problem, and that's sometimes a sign of
popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other sociological
phenomena. I want us to stop and think if we are all addressing the same
issue.

 

Tax cuts for all.

 

Andrew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is the problem with racial =
modifiers?
It is true that the RM deters people from taking non-human characters, =
but parties
still often look like the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) =
&#8211; and humans
are the only race we can really understand / role-play / identify with. =
Is it
just that people taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) =
character
didn&#8217;t understand the cost? If so, is this just a matter of =
education for
the future? Are people so hard-done by from RM? It seems that many of =
the old
(15-25 year) characters in play are non-human, so in practise it =
doesn&#8217;t
seem that broken. Why are people suddenly bitter now? &#8211; have they =
talked
themselves into a state of righteous indignation over a perceived (or =
possibly
actual) slight? Or what has brought this to a head? Possibly the number =
of
giants in play? ( which should be well below 6% - but that&#8217;s =
another
issue). Should we just change the Giant &amp; Shapechanger EM by 0.2 =
instead?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is a serious set of questions =
(as
well as a little bit of a diatribe). If everyone has the same specific =
problem,
we may be able to produce a specific solution. If everyone has a =
different problem,
then either a wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, =
or
maybe there is no single solution for the problems. People seem to be =
baying
for a solution, not identifying the problem, and that&#8217;s sometimes =
a sign
of popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other =
sociological phenomena.
I want us to stop and think if we are all addressing the same =
issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tax cuts for =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromAndrew Luxton-Reilly
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 14:42:26 +1200
Historical precedent is not the best reason to keep a given rule :)

Perhaps I could turn around your questions and ask "what is the problem 
with *not* having any racial modifiers at all?"  In other words, how and 
why do we justify *having* them?  How is the game better by having RM? 
What purpose do they serve?

In DQ, EXP and time are the two main constraints that restrict character 
development (the treasure you get from your GM is another major one, but 
that is really another can of worms).  By giving someone less exp than 
normal, their character develops slower.  At the end of a game, some 
players get to develop their character more than others.  The RM 
dictates that.

Why do we (collectively) believe that characters that are non-human 
*should* develop slower and why do we think that it makes the game more 
fun for anyone?

Personally, I don't see the RM as any more justifiable than giving 
players less exp because their character is left-handed or is or noble 
birth.  People that have a college have more abilities than those 
without a college.  How about we apply an exp penalty to anyone that has 
a college :)

I propose that we simply eliminate the racial modifier entirely and 
allow people to role-play the character that they want without penalty.

Andrew
(the other one)

Andrew Withy wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What is the problem with racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters 
> people from taking non-human characters, but parties still often look 
> like the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) – and humans are the 
> only race we can really understand / role-play / identify with. Is it 
> just that people taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) 
> character didn’t understand the cost? If so, is this just a matter of 
> education for the future? Are people so hard-done by from RM? It seems 
> that many of the old (15-25 year) characters in play are non-human, so 
> in practise it doesn’t seem that broken. Why are people suddenly bitter 
> now? – have they talked themselves into a state of righteous indignation 
> over a perceived (or possibly actual) slight? Or what has brought this 
> to a head? Possibly the number of giants in play? ( which should be well 
> below 6% - but that’s another issue). Should we just change the Giant & 
> Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?
> 
>  
> 
> This is a serious set of questions (as well as a little bit of a 
> diatribe). If everyone has the same specific problem, we may be able to 
> produce a specific solution. If everyone has a different problem, then 
> either a wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, or 
> maybe there is no single solution for the problems. People seem to be 
> baying for a solution, not identifying the problem, and that’s sometimes 
> a sign of popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other 
> sociological phenomena. I want us to stop and think if we are all 
> addressing the same issue.
> 
>  
> 
> Tax cuts for all.
> 
>  
> 
> Andrew
> 

-- 
-------------------------------
Andrew Luxton-Reilly
Department of Computer Science
University of Auckland
Email: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Phone: +649-373-7599 x 85654


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 14:52:08 +1200 
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Two quick points:

There _is_ an EP penalty for having (getting) a college; 6,500EP

And Stephen set out the basic premise on RMs (reposted below) that I think
many assume.

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 11:16
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?


The EM is and always has been a balance for the non-human abilities and
stats that works well
enough in a short to medium term campaign.  Our campaign is LONG.

As a player of a character who has discarded a lot of xp over the years, I'd
love to get rid of
the EM.
A variety of options have been discussed over the years, and some have been
applied to specific
characters.  Could some of those players volunteer what was done for them
and how they think it
worked?

In the interests of fair-play and our preference to promote diversity and
avoid too many 'best'
options (Colleges, Races, Skills, etc.), I think it is important that any
adjustment to EMs as the
balance for Racial benefits should be carefully checked.
<snip>

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Andrew Luxton-Reilly
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:42
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?


Historical precedent is not the best reason to keep a given rule :)

Perhaps I could turn around your questions and ask "what is the problem 
with *not* having any racial modifiers at all?"  In other words, how and 
why do we justify *having* them?  How is the game better by having RM? 
What purpose do they serve?

In DQ, EXP and time are the two main constraints that restrict character 
development (the treasure you get from your GM is another major one, but 
that is really another can of worms).  By giving someone less exp than 
normal, their character develops slower.  At the end of a game, some 
players get to develop their character more than others.  The RM 
dictates that.

Why do we (collectively) believe that characters that are non-human 
*should* develop slower and why do we think that it makes the game more 
fun for anyone?

Personally, I don't see the RM as any more justifiable than giving 
players less exp because their character is left-handed or is or noble 
birth.  People that have a college have more abilities than those 
without a college.  How about we apply an exp penalty to anyone that has 
a college :)

I propose that we simply eliminate the racial modifier entirely and 
allow people to role-play the character that they want without penalty.

Andrew
(the other one)

Andrew Withy wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> What is the problem with racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters 
> people from taking non-human characters, but parties still often look 
> like the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) - and humans are the 
> only race we can really understand / role-play / identify with. Is it 
> just that people taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) 
> character didn't understand the cost? If so, is this just a matter of 
> education for the future? Are people so hard-done by from RM? It seems 
> that many of the old (15-25 year) characters in play are non-human, so 
> in practise it doesn't seem that broken. Why are people suddenly bitter 
> now? - have they talked themselves into a state of righteous indignation 
> over a perceived (or possibly actual) slight? Or what has brought this 
> to a head? Possibly the number of giants in play? ( which should be well 
> below 6% - but that's another issue). Should we just change the Giant & 
> Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?
> 
>  
> 
> This is a serious set of questions (as well as a little bit of a 
> diatribe). If everyone has the same specific problem, we may be able to 
> produce a specific solution. If everyone has a different problem, then 
> either a wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, or 
> maybe there is no single solution for the problems. People seem to be 
> baying for a solution, not identifying the problem, and that's sometimes 
> a sign of popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other 
> sociological phenomena. I want us to stop and think if we are all 
> addressing the same issue.
> 
>  
> 
> Tax cuts for all.
> 
>  
> 
> Andrew
> 

-- 
-------------------------------
Andrew Luxton-Reilly
Department of Computer Science
University of Auckland
Email: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Phone: +649-373-7599 x 85654


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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Two quick points:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>There _is_ an EP penalty for having (getting) a college; 6,500EP</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>And Stephen set out the basic premise on RMs (reposted below) that I think many assume.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A HREF="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Stephen Martin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 11:16</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>The EM is and always has been a balance for the non-human abilities and stats that works well</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>enough in a short to medium term campaign.&nbsp; Our campaign is LONG.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>As a player of a character who has discarded a lot of xp over the years, I'd love to get rid of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the EM.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>A variety of options have been discussed over the years, and some have been applied to specific</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>characters.&nbsp; Could some of those players volunteer what was done for them and how they think it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>worked?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>In the interests of fair-play and our preference to promote diversity and avoid too many 'best'</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>options (Colleges, Races, Skills, etc.), I think it is important that any adjustment to EMs as the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>balance for Racial benefits should be carefully checked.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&lt;snip&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A HREF="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Andrew Luxton-Reilly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:42</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Historical precedent is not the best reason to keep a given rule :)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Perhaps I could turn around your questions and ask &quot;what is the problem </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>with *not* having any racial modifiers at all?&quot;&nbsp; In other words, how and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>why do we justify *having* them?&nbsp; How is the game better by having RM? </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>What purpose do they serve?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>In DQ, EXP and time are the two main constraints that restrict character </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>development (the treasure you get from your GM is another major one, but </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>that is really another can of worms).&nbsp; By giving someone less exp than </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>normal, their character develops slower.&nbsp; At the end of a game, some </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>players get to develop their character more than others.&nbsp; The RM </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>dictates that.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Why do we (collectively) believe that characters that are non-human </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>*should* develop slower and why do we think that it makes the game more </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>fun for anyone?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Personally, I don't see the RM as any more justifiable than giving </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>players less exp because their character is left-handed or is or noble </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>birth.&nbsp; People that have a college have more abilities than those </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>without a college.&nbsp; How about we apply an exp penalty to anyone that has </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a college :)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I propose that we simply eliminate the racial modifier entirely and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>allow people to role-play the character that they want without penalty.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Andrew</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>(the other one)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Andrew Withy wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Hi,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; What is the problem with racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; people from taking non-human characters, but parties still often look </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; like the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) - and humans are the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; only race we can really understand / role-play / identify with. Is it </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; just that people taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; character didn't understand the cost? If so, is this just a matter of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; education for the future? Are people so hard-done by from RM? It seems </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; that many of the old (15-25 year) characters in play are non-human, so </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; in practise it doesn't seem that broken. Why are people suddenly bitter </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; now? - have they talked themselves into a state of righteous indignation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; over a perceived (or possibly actual) slight? Or what has brought this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; to a head? Possibly the number of giants in play? ( which should be well </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; below 6% - but that's another issue). Should we just change the Giant &amp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; This is a serious set of questions (as well as a little bit of a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; diatribe). If everyone has the same specific problem, we may be able to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; produce a specific solution. If everyone has a different problem, then </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; either a wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, or </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; maybe there is no single solution for the problems. People seem to be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; baying for a solution, not identifying the problem, and that's sometimes </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; a sign of popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; sociological phenomena. I want us to stop and think if we are all </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; addressing the same issue.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Tax cuts for all.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; Andrew</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>-------------------------------</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Andrew Luxton-Reilly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Department of Computer Science</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>University of Auckland</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Email: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Phone: +649-373-7599 x 85654</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromCosmo
DateThu, 06 Sep 2007 15:00:40 +1200
Whuh? Stephen, why are you posting from the past?

It's very confusing!



ben

On Thu Sep  6 14:52 , Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> sent:

[body]

>-----Original Message-----
>
>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>Stephen Martin
>Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 11:16
>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?

[body]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
>Andrew Luxton-Reilly
>Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:42
>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
>Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?

[body]


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromChris Caulfield
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 15:25:12 +1200
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Can we add a point to the discussion - if the vote is successful in changing
the modifier.

   1. Existing current characters stay as they are with no change to EM
   as they are who they are.
   2. New PC's can have the change from that point forward.

This will make the book keeping issue easy as there won't be one for anyone
but new PC's and the existing characters keep the race (with benefits they
have enjoyed for some time - many years for the majority), persona and other
characteristics of their character.

On 9/6/07, Cosmo <cosmo@evilbadandwrong.com> wrote:
>
> Whuh? Stephen, why are you posting from the past?
>
> It's very confusing!
>
>
>
> ben
>
> On Thu Sep  6 14:52 , Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> sent:
>
> [body]
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >
> >From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> >Stephen Martin
> >Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 11:16
> >To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?
>
> [body]
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
> >Andrew Luxton-Reilly
> >Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:42
> >To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
>
> [body]
>
>
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>

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<div>Can we add a point to the discussion - if the vote is successful in changing the modifier.</div>
<ol>
<li>Existing current characters stay as they are with no change to EM as they are who they are.</li>
<li>New PC&#39;s can have the change from that point forward.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</li></ol>
<p>This will make the book keeping issue easy as there won&#39;t be one for anyone but new PC&#39;s and the existing characters keep the&nbsp;race (with benefits they have enjoyed for some time - many years for the majority), persona and other characteristics of their character.
</p>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/6/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Cosmo</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:cosmo@evilbadandwrong.com">cosmo@evilbadandwrong.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">Whuh? Stephen, why are you posting from the past?<br><br>It&#39;s very confusing!<br><br><br><br>ben<br><br>
On Thu Sep&nbsp;&nbsp;6 14:52 , Errol Cavit &lt;<a href="mailto:ecavit@tollnz.co.nz">ecavit@tollnz.co.nz</a>&gt; sent:<br><br>[body]<br><br>&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>&gt;<br>&gt;From: <a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]On Behalf Of<br>&gt;Stephen Martin<br>&gt;Sent: Friday, 24 August 2007 11:16<br>&gt;To: <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz
</a><br>&gt;Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - Rule change?<br><br>[body]<br><br>&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>&gt;From: <a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]On Behalf Of<br>&gt;Andrew Luxton-Reilly<br>&gt;Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2007 14:42<br>&gt;To: <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>&gt;Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
<br><br>[body]<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromJohanna and Hamish
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 18:36:38 +1200
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Andrew L has said this quite well IMV however from my perspective:

 

This is a conversation about the limitations of a rule set which were never
designed for a long term campaign. 

 

Racial abilities have a value just like everything else in dq.

 

In a long term campaign the racial abilities must be paid for at some point
- this is a conversation about what that point is.

 

WHY?  Because why should some PC's be penalized forever, its like being put
into the stocks FOREVER, not that some PC's don't seem to deserve it and
they generally do seem to be the ones that are more than human.   Also
Losing EP for no reason is very sad and depressing IMV it would lighten my
world to know one day my elf will grow out of his 1.2

 

 

 

 

Benefits for the poor.

 

Hamish    

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

What is the problem with racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters
people from taking non-human characters, but parties still often look like
the Fellowship (which had 2 humans out of 9) - and humans are the only race
we can really understand / role-play / identify with. Is it just that people
taking non-humans as their first (or near-first) character didn't understand
the cost? If so, is this just a matter of education for the future? Are
people so hard-done by from RM? It seems that many of the old (15-25 year)
characters in play are non-human, so in practise it doesn't seem that
broken. Why are people suddenly bitter now? - have they talked themselves
into a state of righteous indignation over a perceived (or possibly actual)
slight? Or what has brought this to a head? Possibly the number of giants in
play? ( which should be well below 6% - but that's another issue). Should we
just change the Giant & Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?

 

This is a serious set of questions (as well as a little bit of a diatribe).
If everyone has the same specific problem, we may be able to produce a
specific solution. If everyone has a different problem, then either a
wide-ranging solution such as those proposed may be best, or maybe there is
no single solution for the problems. People seem to be baying for a
solution, not identifying the problem, and that's sometimes a sign of
popularist politics, or irrational mass movements, or other sociological
phenomena. I want us to stop and think if we are all addressing the same
issue.

 

Tax cuts for all.

 

Andrew


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew L has said this quite well =
IMV
however from my perspective:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is a conversation about the
limitations of a rule set which were never designed for a long term =
campaign. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Racial abilities have a value just =
like
everything else in dq.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In a long term campaign the racial
abilities must be paid for at some point &#8211; this is a conversation =
about
what that point is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>WHY?&nbsp; Because why should some =
PC&#8217;s
be penalized forever, its like being put into the stocks FOREVER, not =
that some
PC&#8217;s don&#8217;t seem to deserve it and they generally do seem to =
be the
ones that are more than human.&nbsp; &nbsp;Also Losing EP for no reason =
is very
sad and depressing IMV it would lighten my world to know one day my elf =
will
grow out of his 1.2<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Benefits for the =
poor&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What is the =
problem with
racial modifiers? It is true that the RM deters people from taking =
non-human
characters, but parties still often look like the Fellowship (which had =
2
humans out of 9) &#8211; and humans are the only race we can really =
understand
/ role-play / identify with. Is it just that people taking non-humans as =
their
first (or near-first) character didn&#8217;t understand the cost? If so, =
is
this just a matter of education for the future? Are people so hard-done =
by from
RM? It seems that many of the old (15-25 year) characters in play are =
non-human,
so in practise it doesn&#8217;t seem that broken. Why are people =
suddenly
bitter now? &#8211; have they talked themselves into a state of =
righteous
indignation over a perceived (or possibly actual) slight? Or what has =
brought
this to a head? Possibly the number of giants in play? ( which should be =
well
below 6% - but that&#8217;s another issue). Should we just change the =
Giant
&amp; Shapechanger EM by 0.2 instead?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is a =
serious set of
questions (as well as a little bit of a diatribe). If everyone has the =
same
specific problem, we may be able to produce a specific solution. If =
everyone
has a different problem, then either a wide-ranging solution such as =
those
proposed may be best, or maybe there is no single solution for the =
problems.
People seem to be baying for a solution, not identifying the problem, =
and
that&#8217;s sometimes a sign of popularist politics, or irrational mass
movements, or other sociological phenomena. I want us to stop and think =
if we
are all addressing the same issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tax cuts for =
all.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - (Retrospective)
FromStephen Martin
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 22:16:54 +1200 (NZST)
Hamish wrote:

> 4: Do we make it retrospective?  Y/N

Hamish, do you support making it retrospective?
Do you have reasons to back it up that outweigh the issues raised against this idea?

Jono had this as part of his original proposal but withdrew it after discussion.

I ask because I see no point in having something on the agenda that nobody actually wants and
nobody will vote for.

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Racial Modifiers - What was the problem again?
FromMichael Scott
DateThu, 6 Sep 2007 23:10:59 +1200
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> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:42:26 +1200> Subject: Re: [dq] Racial Modifiers =
- What was the problem again?> From: andrew@cs.auckland.ac.nz> To: dq@dq.sf=
.org.nz> > Historical precedent is not the best reason to keep a given rule=
 :)> Perhaps I could turn around your questions and ask;=20
=20
>"What is the problem with *not* having any racial modifiers at all?"
=20
Everything becomes the same and we lose variety which is the spice of life.
=20
>"In other words, how and why do we justify *having* them?"
=20
People and races are different and the RMs are our way (however imperfect) =
of reflecting those differences
=20
>"How is the game better by having RM?"
=20
well besides adding variety it gives starting characters abilities before s=
pending ep (buy now pay later, although currently you never seem to end up =
paying it off)=20
=20
My human would be quite prepared to spend ep or a wish on elven style racia=
l witchsight or stat bonuses (and has). That is a wish that my Elf, dwarf o=
r giant could use on something else
>"What purpose do they serve?"
=20
To outline differences between the races and make those races less attracti=
ve reflecting the fact that the western kingdoms is a predomently human cul=
ture ie 100 humans to every 1 non-human
> > In DQ, EXP and time are the two main constraints that restrict characte=
r > development (the treasure you get from your GM is another major one, bu=
t > that is really another can of worms). By giving someone less exp than >=
 normal, their character develops slower. At the end of a game, some > play=
ers get to develop their character more than others. The RM > dictates that=
.
Which is why many are advocating change, unfortunatly they are getting bogg=
ed down in the nature of the chage needed
=20
Also those who play non-human characters do so knowing about and accepting =
the RMs penalty
> Why do we (collectively) believe that characters that are non-human > *sh=
ould* develop slower and why do we think that it makes the game more > fun =
for anyone?
We don't. And the fun for me at least is in trying to balance/develop my no=
n-human characters despite the penilties. Not that I want to pay those pena=
lties indefinatly.
=20
If you have a system that more accurately depicts the differences between t=
he races please share and we can play test/vote on it
> Personally, I don't see the RM as any more justifiable than giving > play=
ers less exp because their character is left-handed or is or noble > birth.
=20
IMV they are.
=20
> People that have a college have more abilities than those > without a col=
lege. How about we apply an exp penalty to anyone that has > a college :)
They already have one. besides every non-mage I know has gotten some sort o=
f ep leech like spells or talents at first oppotunity. Even those with coll=
eges seem to want to pick up more abilities spells wierd shit to spend ep o=
n.
> I propose that we simply eliminate the racial modifier entirely and > all=
ow people to role-play the character that they want without penalty.
So I could play my halfling were-rhino who is a master tattoist and ex pira=
te with a magical hook and peg leg?
Cool!
> Andrew> (the other one)
TTFN
Michael Scott
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&gt; Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:42:26 +1200<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq] Racial =
Modifiers - What was the problem again?<BR>&gt; From: andrew@cs.auckland.ac=
.nz<BR>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Historical precedent is no=
t the best reason to keep a given rule :)<BR><BR>&gt; Perhaps I could turn =
around your questions and ask; <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;"What is the problem with *not* having any racial modifiers at all?"<BR=
>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Everything becomes the same and we lose variety which=
 is the spice of life.</FONT><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;"In other words, how and why do we justify *having* them?"<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>People and races are different and the RMs are our wa=
y (however imperfect) of reflecting those differences</FONT><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;"How is the game better by having RM?"<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>well besides adding variety it gives starting charact=
ers abilities before spending ep (buy now pay later, although currently you=
 never seem to end up paying it off)</FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>My human would be quite prepared to spend ep or a wis=
h on elven style racial witchsight or stat bonuses (and has). That is a wis=
h that my Elf, dwarf or giant&nbsp;could use on something else<BR></FONT><B=
R>
&gt;"What purpose do they serve?"<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>To outline differences between the races and make tho=
se races less attractive reflecting the fact that the western kingdoms is a=
 predomently human culture ie 100 humans to every 1 non-human</FONT><BR>
<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; In DQ, EXP and time are the two main constraints that res=
trict character <BR>&gt; development (the treasure you get from your GM is =
another major one, but <BR>&gt; that is really another can of worms). By gi=
ving someone less exp than <BR>&gt; normal, their character develops slower=
. At the end of a game, some <BR>&gt; players get to develop their characte=
r more than others. The RM <BR>&gt; dictates that.<BR><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Which is why&nbsp;many are advocating change, unfortu=
natly they are getting bogged down in the nature of the chage needed</FONT>=
<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Also those who play non-human characters do so knowin=
g about and accepting the RMs penalty</FONT><BR>
<BR>&gt; Why do we (collectively) believe that characters that are non-huma=
n <BR>&gt; *should* develop slower and why do we think that it makes the ga=
me more <BR>&gt; fun for anyone?<BR><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>We don't. And the fun for me at least is in trying to=
 balance/develop my non-human characters despite the penilties. Not that I =
want to pay those penalties indefinatly.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>If you have a system that more accurately depicts the=
 differences between the races please share and we can play test/vote on it=
</FONT><BR>
<BR>&gt; Personally, I don't see the RM as any more justifiable than giving=
 <BR>&gt; players less exp because their character is left-handed or is or =
noble <BR>&gt; birth.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>IMV they are.</FONT><BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; People that have a college have more abilities than those <BR>&gt; wit=
hout a college. How about we apply an exp penalty to anyone that has <BR>&g=
t; a college :)<BR><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>They already have one. besides every non-mage I know =
has gotten some sort of ep leech like spells or talents at first oppotunity=
. Even those with colleges seem to want to pick up more abilities spells wi=
erd shit to spend ep on.</FONT><BR>
<BR>&gt; I propose that we simply eliminate the racial modifier entirely an=
d <BR>&gt; allow people to role-play the character that they want without p=
enalty.<BR><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>So I could play my halfling were-rhino who is a maste=
r tattoist and ex pirate with a magical hook and peg leg?</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Cool!</FONT><BR>
<BR>&gt; Andrew<BR>&gt; (the other one)<BR><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>TTFN</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=3D#0000ff>Michael Scott</FONT><BR><br /><hr />Invite your mail =
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