Subject[dq] Rulebook fixing
FromJonathan Bean
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 08:53:37 +1200
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Errol said:

> Good point in your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't
support the way things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so
we should update it.

=20

If you would like to fix something that is clearly broken and people use
all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to
do with having spells.

Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then
following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an
entity and get both effects in effect at once.

Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the spell stopping
when the points of protection are used. Because the second effect is the
same as the first, they Queue. Again not good.

=20

All in all the effect of this poor rule is not good.

=20

Quote from DQ Rulebook 2006 page 26

=20

Queueing

Spells that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast
on a target that is already under the

effect of a spell which has the same effect, then the spell "queues".
This means that, although the spell is

in effect on the target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is
gone.

=20

Spells with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that
it is the spells' effects that are important,

not the spell itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g.
defence), they queue. If two spells affect=20

different attributes (e.g. PS & FT), they stack.

=20

This rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that
contains a magical effect that can

be caused by a spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon
with a magical bonus to hit or damage

may not stack with Weapon of Flames).

=20

The duration of the second, queueing, spell is measured from casting,
but it only takes effect when the

first spell wears off.

=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Sales Executive

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________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Errol Cavit
Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 4:57 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] College and non-college magics

=20

A logical argument.

It would follow (barring a special exception) that you have to learn an
'off-college' counter from someone who is the same college as you. I
don't think we want that to be a rule.

=20

I'm fine with 'Off-college counters are cast as SK spells of the adept's
college', so long as the teaching of them reflects what has been the
practice for some time (as I understand it) - anyone who knows the
counterspell for a college can teach it to any other adept.

=20

It's quite possible that we clarified/decided this already, and just
omitted to get it into the Rulebook in an obvious fashion. If anyone
finds a decision recorded anywhere, please note it at

http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_Issues

=20

Good point in your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't
support the way things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so
we should update it.

=20

Cheers

Errol

	-----Original Message-----
	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On
Behalf Of Jonathan Bean
	Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 16:33
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] College and non-college magics

	Don't forget there are two types here -=20

	College Mages Section 10 and Non-College magic's Section 11.

	Counter Spells are in the first section college magic.=20

	=20

	Kind regards,

	=20

	=20

	=20

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On
Behalf Of Errol Cavit
	Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 4:18 p.m.
	To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
	Subject: Re: [dq] College and non-college magics

	=20

	Actually, that isn't as clear-cut as I thought.

	They are clearly Special Knowledge (so 2 FT to cast etc). I seem
to remember discussing who can teach who 'off-college' counters. I think
we decided that if was best for everyone's sanity if anyone that knew a
college's counterspells could teach them to anybody else. This suggests
that 'off-college' counters have no college themselves, and college
bonuses and restrictions don't apply?

	=20

	This is all from memory, and we quite possibly didn't think
about it at the time anyway.

	=20

	We should decide how we want to treat them, and state what we
decide clearly - putting the bit about off-college counters at the start
of 10.2 Counterspell (rather than the end) would be an improvement as
well I think.

	If we decide they are college spells, a specific note about
flexible ability to teach widely would be good.

	=20

	I haven't done a detailed check off the Rulebook to see if it is
clarified anywhere outside the 'College Magic' section.

	=20

	Cheers

	Errol

		-----Original Message-----
		From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Keith Smith
		Sent: Monday, 10 September 2007 15:50
		To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
		Subject: Re: [dq] College and non-college magics

			 <snip>=20

	=09
		Agreed. Speaking of counterspells, I take it that
counterspells learnt that are not of your college, e.g. a Celestial
casting Fire Special Counter,  are also non-colleged magic.
	=09
		Keith


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Errol =
said:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&gt; Good point in your other post =
Jono.
It looks like the Rulebook doesn't support the way things are done =
(certainly
not in a clear fashion), so we should update =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If you would like to fix something =
that is
clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of =
spells in
the magic section, to do with having =
spells.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Given that the effect of Strength =
of
Stones can be on PS or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules =
below you
can cast twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at =
once.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also Fire Armour is the other =
classic example
with the spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because =
the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not =
good.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>All in all the effect of this poor =
rule is
not good.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Medi><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Medi'>Quote
from DQ Rulebook 2006 page 26<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Medi><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Medi'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Medi><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Medi'>Queueing<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>Spells
that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast on a =
target
that is already under the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>effect
of a spell which has the same effect, then the spell =
&#8220;queues&#8221;. This
means that, although the spell is<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>in
effect on the target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is =
gone.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>Spells
with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that it is =
the
spells&#8217; effects that are important,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>not
the spell itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g. =
defence), they
queue. If two spells affect <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>different
attributes (e.g. PS &amp; FT), they stack.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>This
rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that =
contains a
magical effect that can<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>be
caused by a spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon with =
a
magical bonus to hit or damage<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>may
not stack with Weapon of Flames).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>The
duration of the second, queueing, spell is measured from casting, but it =
only
takes effect when the<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:
8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>first spell wears =
off.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
    w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on">4 Newton Road</st1:Street>, =
<st1:City
     w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City></st1:address> </span></font><font =
size=3D1
    color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:6.0pt;font-family:
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href=3D"http://maps.google.com/maps?f=3Dq&amp;hl=3Den&amp;geocode=3D&amp;=
q=3D4+Newton+Rd,+Newton,+Auckland+1010,+New+Zealand&amp;sll=3D40.03804,-7=
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1">Click
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color=3D"#859ba5"
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6500</span></font><font
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color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>F</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
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lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 9 361 =
6504</span></font><font
  color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
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  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 =
September 2007
4:57 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College =
and
non-college magics</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>A&nbsp;logical =
argument.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It would follow (barring a special
exception) that you have to learn an 'off-college' counter from someone =
who is
the same college as you. I don't think we want that to be a =
rule.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I'm fine with 'Off-college counters =
are
cast as SK spells of the adept's college', so long as the teaching of =
them
reflects what has been the practice for some time (as I understand it) - =
anyone
who knows the counterspell for a college can teach it to any other =
adept.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It's quite possible that we
clarified/decided this already, and just omitted to get it into the =
Rulebook in
an obvious fashion. If anyone finds a decision recorded anywhere, please =
note
it at</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><a
href=3D"http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_I=
ssues">http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_Is=
sues</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Good point in your other post Jono. =
It
looks like the Rulebook doesn't support the way things are done =
(certainly not
in a clear fashion), so we should update =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Jonathan Bean</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 =
September 2007
16:33<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College =
and
non-college magics</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Don't forget there are two types =
here - <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>College Mages Section 10 and =
Non-College
magic's Section 11.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Counter Spells are in the first =
section
college magic. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kind =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 =
September 2007
4:18 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College =
and
non-college magics</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Actually, that isn't as clear-cut =
as I
thought.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>They are clearly Special Knowledge =
(so 2
FT to cast etc). I seem to remember discussing&nbsp;who can =
teach&nbsp;who
'off-college' counters. I think we decided that if was best for =
everyone's
sanity if anyone that knew a college's counterspells could teach them to
anybody else. This suggests that 'off-college' counters have no college
themselves, and college bonuses and restrictions don't =
apply?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>This is all from memory, and we =
quite
possibly didn't think about it at the time =
anyway.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>We should decide how we want to =
treat
them, and state what we decide clearly - putting the bit about =
off-college
counters at the start of 10.2 Counterspell (rather than the end) would =
be an
improvement as well I think.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>If we decide they are college =
spells, a
specific note about flexible ability to teach widely would be =
good.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I haven't done a detailed check off =
the
Rulebook to see if it is clarified anywhere outside the 'College Magic'
section.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Errol</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original =
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Keith
Smith<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 =
September 2007 15:50<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College =
and
non-college magics</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' cite=3D"" =
type=3Dcite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</span></fon=
t><o:p></o:p></p>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Agreed. Speaking of counterspells, I take it that counterspells learnt =
that are
not of your college, e.g. a Celestial casting Fire Special =
Counter,&nbsp; are
also non-colleged magic.<br>
<br>
Keith<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</blockquote>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</body>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook fixing
FromStruan Judd
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 09:51:23 +1200
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I actually like some of the effects from this rule, but agree that some of
the others are very problematic. The main problem I see is, as alluded, from
the queuing of 'ablative' or 'multiple-choice effect' spells.

I propose the following simple ( :-) ) fix.

Add the following clause to the Restrictions on Magic section:

----

Uniqueness

A Target can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell cast by
an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the same Spell by the
same Adept against the same Target will simply fail for that Target.

Example: Straka the Warrior is being boosted by Sheyas the Earth Mage.
Sheyas cast Strength of Stone (SoS) on Strength on Straka. Straka asks that
his Endurance be boosted as well, but this is not possible. Sheyas only
option is to counterspell the current SoS and recast SoS on Endurance.

----

This will remove the possibility of 'rolling' Fire Armour, multiple Curses
from the same Adept.

It will also provide a benefit to having two party members with the the same
college as then this 'rolling' becomes possible. ie. With two Earth Mages,
Strength of Stone on both Endurance and Strength is possible, though
probably at different Ranks of effect.


TTFN, Struan.


On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:
>
>  Errol said:
>
> > Good point in your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't
> support the way things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so we
> should update it.
>
>
>
> If you would like to fix something that is clearly broken and people use
> all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to do
> with having spells.
>
> Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then
> following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an entity
> and get both effects in effect at once.
>
> Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the spell stopping when
> the points of protection are used. Because the second effect is the same as
> the first, they Queue. Again not good.
>
>
>
> All in all the effect of this poor rule is not good.
>
>
>
> Quote from DQ Rulebook 2006 page 26
>
>
>
> Queueing
>
> Spells that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast
> on a target that is already under the
>
> effect of a spell which has the same effect, then the spell "queues". This
> means that, although the spell is
>
> in effect on the target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is gone.
>
>
>
> Spells with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that
> it is the spells' effects that are important,
>
> not the spell itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g.
> defence), they queue. If two spells affect
>
> different attributes (e.g. PS & FT), they stack.
>
>
>
> This rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that
> contains a magical effect that can
>
> be caused by a spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon with
> a magical bonus to hit or damage
>
> may not stack with Weapon of Flames).
>
>
>
> The duration of the second, queueing, spell is measured from casting, but
> it only takes effect when the
>
> first spell wears off.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> *Jonathan Bean*
> Sales Executive
>
> M
>
> +64 21 917 173
>
> Office
>
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>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf Of
> *Errol Cavit
> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 4:57 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] College and non-college magics
>
>
>
> A logical argument.
>
> It would follow (barring a special exception) that you have to learn an
> 'off-college' counter from someone who is the same college as you. I don't
> think we want that to be a rule.
>
>
>
> I'm fine with 'Off-college counters are cast as SK spells of the adept's
> college', so long as the teaching of them reflects what has been the
> practice for some time (as I understand it) - anyone who knows the
> counterspell for a college can teach it to any other adept.
>
>
>
> It's quite possible that we clarified/decided this already, and just
> omitted to get it into the Rulebook in an obvious fashion. If anyone finds a
> decision recorded anywhere, please note it at
>
> http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_Issues
>
>
>
> Good point in your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't
> support the way things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so we
> should update it.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Errol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]*On Behalf Of
> *Jonathan Bean
> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 16:33
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] College and non-college magics
>
> Don't forget there are two types here -
>
> College Mages Section 10 and Non-College magic's Section 11.
>
> Counter Spells are in the first section college magic.
>
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf Of
> *Errol Cavit
> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 4:18 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] College and non-college magics
>
>
>
> Actually, that isn't as clear-cut as I thought.
>
> They are clearly Special Knowledge (so 2 FT to cast etc). I seem to
> remember discussing who can teach who 'off-college' counters. I think we
> decided that if was best for everyone's sanity if anyone that knew a
> college's counterspells could teach them to anybody else. This suggests that
> 'off-college' counters have no college themselves, and college bonuses and
> restrictions don't apply?
>
>
>
> This is all from memory, and we quite possibly didn't think about it at
> the time anyway.
>
>
>
> We should decide how we want to treat them, and state what we decide
> clearly - putting the bit about off-college counters at the start of 10.2Counterspell (rather than the end) would be an improvement as well I think.
>
> If we decide they are college spells, a specific note about flexible
> ability to teach widely would be good.
>
>
>
> I haven't done a detailed check off the Rulebook to see if it is clarified
> anywhere outside the 'College Magic' section.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Errol
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]*On Behalf Of
> *Keith Smith
> *Sent:* Monday, 10 September 2007 15:50
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] College and non-college magics
>
>  <snip>
>
>
> Agreed. Speaking of counterspells, I take it that counterspells learnt
> that are not of your college, e.g. a Celestial casting Fire Special
> Counter,  are also non-colleged magic.
>
> Keith
>
>
>

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I actually like some of the effects from this rule, but agree that some of the others are very problematic. The main problem I see is, as alluded, from the queuing of &#39;ablative&#39; or &#39;multiple-choice effect&#39; spells.
<br><br>I propose the following simple ( :-) ) fix.<br><br>Add the following clause to the Restrictions on Magic section:<br><br>----<br><br>Uniqueness<br><br>A Target can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell cast by an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the same Spell by the same Adept against the same Target will simply fail for that Target.
<br><br>Example: Straka the Warrior is being boosted by Sheyas the Earth Mage. Sheyas cast Strength of Stone (SoS) on Strength on Straka. Straka asks that his Endurance be boosted as well, but this is not possible. Sheyas only option is to counterspell the current SoS and recast SoS on Endurance.
<br><br>----<br><br>This will remove the possibility of &#39;rolling&#39; Fire Armour, multiple Curses from the same Adept.<br><br>It will also provide a benefit to having two party members with the the same college as then this &#39;rolling&#39; becomes possible. ie. With two Earth Mages, Strength of Stone on both Endurance and Strength is possible, though probably at different Ranks of effect.
<br><br><br>TTFN, Struan.<br><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jonathan Bean</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">













<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">

<div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Errol said:</span></font></p>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&gt; Good point in your other post Jono.
It looks like the Rulebook doesn&#39;t support the way things are done (certainly
not in a clear fashion), so we should update it.</span></font></p>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">If you would like to fix something that is
clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in
the magic section, to do with having spells.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Given that the effect of Strength of
Stones can be on PS or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules below you
can cast twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at once.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Also Fire Armour is the other classic example
with the spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not good.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">All in all the effect of this poor rule is
not good.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Medi" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi;">Quote
from DQ Rulebook 2006 page 26</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Medi" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Medi" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi;">Queueing</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">Spells
that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast on a target
that is already under the</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">effect
of a spell which has the same effect, then the spell "queues". This
means that, although the spell is</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">in
effect on the target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is gone.</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">Spells
with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that it is the
spells' effects that are important,</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">not
the spell itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g. defence), they
queue. If two spells affect </span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">different
attributes (e.g. PS &amp; FT), they stack.</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">This
rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that contains a
magical effect that can</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">be
caused by a spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon with a
magical bonus to hit or damage</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">may
not stack with Weapon of Flames).</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p style=""><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">The
duration of the second, queueing, spell is measured from casting, but it only
takes effect when the</span></font></p>

<p><font face="NimbusRomNo9L-Regu" size="1"><span style="font-size: 8pt; font-family: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu;">first spell wears off.</span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">
</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Kind regards,</span></font></p>

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><strong><b><font color="#52717f" face="Trebuchet MS" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(82, 113, 127);" lang="EN-NZ">Jonathan Bean</span></font></b></strong><font color="navy">
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<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;"></span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">

<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">

</span></font></div>

<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 September 2007
4:57 p.m.<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College and
non-college magics</span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">A&nbsp;logical argument.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">It would follow (barring a special
exception) that you have to learn an &#39;off-college&#39; counter from someone who is
the same college as you. I don&#39;t think we want that to be a rule.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I&#39;m fine with &#39;Off-college counters are
cast as SK spells of the adept&#39;s college&#39;, so long as the teaching of them
reflects what has been the practice for some time (as I understand it) - anyone
who knows the counterspell for a college can teach it to any other adept.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">It&#39;s quite possible that we
clarified/decided this already, and just omitted to get it into the Rulebook in
an obvious fashion. If anyone finds a decision recorded anywhere, please note
it at</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><a href="http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_Issues" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
http://www.dragonquest.org.nz/dqwiki/index.php/Noticed_Rulebook_Issues</a></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Good point in your other post Jono. It
looks like the Rulebook doesn&#39;t support the way things are done (certainly not
in a clear fashion), so we should update it.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Errol</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 5pt;">

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Jonathan Bean<br>

<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 September 2007
16:33<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College and
non-college magics</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Don&#39;t forget there are two types here - </span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">College Mages Section 10 and Non-College
magic&#39;s Section 11.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Counter Spells are in the first section
college magic. </span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Kind regards,</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">

<div>

<div style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">

<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">

</span></font></div>

<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">
<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Errol Cavit<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 September 2007
4:18 p.m.<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College and
non-college magics</span></font></p>

</div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Actually, that isn&#39;t as clear-cut as I
thought.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">They are clearly Special Knowledge (so 2
FT to cast etc). I seem to remember discussing&nbsp;who can teach&nbsp;who
&#39;off-college&#39; counters. I think we decided that if was best for everyone&#39;s
sanity if anyone that knew a college&#39;s counterspells could teach them to
anybody else. This suggests that &#39;off-college&#39; counters have no college
themselves, and college bonuses and restrictions don&#39;t apply?</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">This is all from memory, and we quite
possibly didn&#39;t think about it at the time anyway.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">We should decide how we want to treat
them, and state what we decide clearly - putting the bit about off-college
counters at the start of 10.2 Counterspell (rather than the end) would be an
improvement as well I think.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">If we decide they are college spells, a
specific note about flexible ability to teach widely would be good.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">I haven&#39;t done a detailed check off the
Rulebook to see if it is clarified anywhere outside the &#39;College Magic&#39;
section.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Cheers</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">Errol</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">

<p style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith
Smith<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, 10 September 2007 15:50<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] College and
non-college magics</span></font></p>

<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" type="cite">

<p><font color="blue" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br>
Agreed. Speaking of counterspells, I take it that counterspells learnt that are
not of your college, e.g. a Celestial casting Fire Special Counter,&nbsp; are
also non-colleged magic.<br>
<br>
Keith</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</div>


<br clear="all"></blockquote></div><br>

------=_Part_88190_14774655.1189461083486--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 10:19:07 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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If we make this the standard (rather than restricting it to ablative or
multi-choice spells), then one of the effects is that it's much more
difficult in practice to renew a party's flying magics in the air. Likewise
waterbreathing underwater, etc.
 
I hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports Str of Stone on EN and PS -
I've always seen it played as only one of those active (and using Waters of
Str to buff up for the big fight in practice). Was this intended when we
last changed the wording for queuing?
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Struan Judd
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 09:51
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook fixing


I actually like some of the effects from this rule, but agree that some of
the others are very problematic. The main problem I see is, as alluded, from
the queuing of 'ablative' or 'multiple-choice effect' spells. 

I propose the following simple ( :-) ) fix.

Add the following clause to the Restrictions on Magic section:

----

Uniqueness

A Target can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell cast by
an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the same Spell by the
same Adept against the same Target will simply fail for that Target. 

Example: Straka the Warrior is being boosted by Sheyas the Earth Mage.
Sheyas cast Strength of Stone (SoS) on Strength on Straka. Straka asks that
his Endurance be boosted as well, but this is not possible. Sheyas only
option is to counterspell the current SoS and recast SoS on Endurance. 

----

This will remove the possibility of 'rolling' Fire Armour, multiple Curses
from the same Adept.

It will also provide a benefit to having two party members with the the same
college as then this 'rolling' becomes possible. ie. With two Earth Mages,
Strength of Stone on both Endurance and Strength is possible, though
probably at different Ranks of effect. 


TTFN, Struan.



On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean < jonathanB@timedisciple.com
<mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com> > wrote: 

Errol said:

> Good point in your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't
support the way things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so we
should update it.

 

If you would like to fix something that is clearly broken and people use all
the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to do with
having spells.

Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then
following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an entity
and get both effects in effect at once.

Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the spell stopping when
the points of protection are used. Because the second effect is the same as
the first, they Queue. Again not good.

 

All in all the effect of this poor rule is not good.

 

Quote from DQ Rulebook 2006 page 26

 

Queueing

Spells that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast on
a target that is already under the

effect of a spell which has the same effect, then the spell "queues". This
means that, although the spell is

in effect on the target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is gone.

 

Spells with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that it
is the spells' effects that are important,

not the spell itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g.
defence), they queue. If two spells affect 

different attributes (e.g. PS & FT), they stack.

 

This rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that
contains a magical effect that can

be caused by a spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon with a
magical bonus to hit or damage

may not stack with Weapon of Flames).

 

The duration of the second, queueing, spell is measured from casting, but it
only takes effect when the

first spell wears off. 

 

Kind regards,


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<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>If we 
make this the standard (rather than restricting it to ablative or multi-choice 
spells), then one of the effects is that it's much more difficult in practice to 
renew a party's flying magics in the air. Likewise waterbreathing underwater, 
etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports Str of Stone on EN and PS - I've 
always seen it played as only one of those active (and using Waters of Str to 
buff up for the big fight in practice). Was this intended when we last changed 
the wording for queuing?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=16005821-10092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Struan Judd<BR><B>Sent:</B> 
  Tuesday, 11 September 2007 09:51<BR><B>To:</B> 
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Rulebook 
  fixing<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>I actually like some of the effects from this rule, 
  but agree that some of the others are very problematic. The main problem I see 
  is, as alluded, from the queuing of 'ablative' or 'multiple-choice effect' 
  spells. <BR><BR>I propose the following simple ( :-) ) fix.<BR><BR>Add the 
  following clause to the Restrictions on Magic 
  section:<BR><BR>----<BR><BR>Uniqueness<BR><BR>A Target can only be currently 
  affected once by a particular Spell cast by an particular Adept. Any 
  subsequent successful cast of the same Spell by the same Adept against the 
  same Target will simply fail for that Target. <BR><BR>Example: Straka the 
  Warrior is being boosted by Sheyas the Earth Mage. Sheyas cast Strength of 
  Stone (SoS) on Strength on Straka. Straka asks that his Endurance be boosted 
  as well, but this is not possible. Sheyas only option is to counterspell the 
  current SoS and recast SoS on Endurance. <BR><BR>----<BR><BR>This will remove 
  the possibility of 'rolling' Fire Armour, multiple Curses from the same 
  Adept.<BR><BR>It will also provide a benefit to having two party members with 
  the the same college as then this 'rolling' becomes possible. ie. With two 
  Earth Mages, Strength of Stone on both Endurance and Strength is possible, 
  though probably at different Ranks of effect. <BR><BR><BR>TTFN, 
  Struan.<BR><BR><BR>
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 9/11/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Jonathan 
  Bean</B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</A>&gt; 
  wrote:</SPAN> 
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
    <DIV>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Errol 
    said:</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&gt; Good point in 
    your other post Jono. It looks like the Rulebook doesn't support the way 
    things are done (certainly not in a clear fashion), so we should update 
    it.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If you would like 
    to fix something that is clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the 
    Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to do with having 
    spells.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Given that the 
    effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then following the Spell 
    overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an entity and get both effects 
    in effect at once.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Also Fire Armour is 
    the other classic example with the spell stopping when the points of 
    protection are used. Because the second effect is the same as the first, 
    they Queue. Again not good.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">All in all the 
    effect of this poor rule is not good.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Medi size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi">Quote from DQ 
    Rulebook 2006 page 26</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Medi size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Medi size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Medi">Queueing</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">Spells that have the 
    same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is cast on a target that is 
    already under the</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">effect of a spell 
    which has the same effect, then the spell "queues". This means that, 
    although the spell is</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">in effect on the 
    target, it has no effect until the earlier spell is gone.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">Spells with any 
    overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note that it is the spells' 
    effects that are important,</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">not the spell 
    itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g. defence), they queue. 
    If two spells affect </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">different attributes 
    (e.g. PS &amp; FT), they stack.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">This rule also 
    applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any item that contains a magical 
    effect that can</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">be caused by a 
    spell, cannot be affected by that spell (e.g. a weapon with a magical bonus 
    to hit or damage</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">may not stack with 
    Weapon of Flames).</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">The duration of the 
    second, queueing, spell is measured from casting, but it only takes effect 
    when the</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=NimbusRomNo9L-Regu size=1><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt; FONT-FAMILY: NimbusRomNo9L-Regu">first spell wears 
    off.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <DIV>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Kind 
    regards,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromStruan Judd
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 10:33:58 +1200
On 9/11/07, Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
> If we make this the standard (rather than restricting it to ablative or
> multi-choice spells), then one of the effects is that it's much more
> difficult in practice to renew a party's flying magics in the air. Likewise
> waterbreathing underwater, etc.

Yup.

And I like that.

> I hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports Str of Stone on EN and PS -
> I've always seen it played as only one of those active (and using Waters of
> Str to buff up for the big fight in practice). Was this intended when we
> last changed the wording for queuing?
>
> Cheers
> Errol

Well it's the same in the 2004 edition (I don't have earlier editions
at work to check with).

And I've always assume that the main reason it's not done is to save
money for the party, else you'd be looking at ~1,000sp per day (for
Restorative / Healing potion combo) from the doubling of the drain on
the Earth Mage's FT each day.

TTFN, Struan.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromKeith Smith
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 10:33:29 +1200
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>If we make this the standard (rather than restricting it to ablative 
>or multi-choice spells), then one of the effects is that it's much 
>more difficult in practice to renew a party's flying magics in the 
>air. Likewise waterbreathing underwater, etc.
>
>I hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports Str of Stone on EN and 
>PS - I've always seen it played as only one of those active (and 
>using Waters of Str to buff up for the big fight in practice). Was 
>this intended when we last changed the wording for queuing?

Personally I don't see a problem with SoS being able to cast twice on 
people, once for Str, the other for End. Mind you, the poor Earth 
mage doing it might be complaining, especially after the second or 
third restorative.  However, the spell itself could have a line added 
to it to explicitly state that only one instance of the spell can be 
on a target at any instance - otherwise the queuing rules apply.

As Errol pointed out, being able to recast spells on people before 
the current ones run out is a definate advantage.

Keith





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<body>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=2 color="#0000FF">If
we make this the standard (rather than restricting it to ablative or
multi-choice spells), then one of the effects is that it's much more
difficult in practice to renew a party's flying magics in the air.
Likewise waterbreathing underwater, etc.<br>
</font>&nbsp;<br>
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">I hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports
Str of Stone on EN and PS - I've always seen it played as only one of
those active (and using Waters of Str to buff up for the big fight in
practice). Was this intended when we last changed the wording for
queuing?</font></blockquote><font size=1><br>
</font>Personally I don't see a problem with SoS being able to cast twice
on people, once for Str, the other for End. Mind you, the poor Earth mage
doing it might be complaining, especially after the second or third
restorative.&nbsp; However, the spell itself could have a line added to
it to explicitly state that only one instance of the spell can be on a
target at any instance - otherwise the queuing rules apply.<br><br>
As Errol pointed out, being able to recast spells on people before the
current ones run out is a definate advantage. <br><br>
Keith<br><br>
<br><br>
<br>
</body>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromKeith Smith
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 10:47:56 +1200
> > I hadn't realised that the Rulebook supports Str of Stone on EN and PS -
> > I've always seen it played as only one of those active (and using Waters of
> > Str to buff up for the big fight in practice). Was this intended when we
> > last changed the wording for queuing?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Errol
>
>Well it's the same in the 2004 edition (I don't have earlier editions
>at work to check with).

I could check all the earlier copies I got bit I'm fairly sure it is  the same.

>And I've always assume that the main reason it's not done is to save
>money for the party, else you'd be looking at ~1,000sp per day (for
>Restorative / Healing potion combo) from the doubling of the drain on
>the Earth Mage's FT each day.

Agreed.

However, I see where Jono is coming from with the Ablative Armour. 
Assuming the firemage cast two armour spells on the same target with 
one running and the other queued in the background. The way I'd play 
it as a GM is that once an attack brings down the first spell, the 
remaining points of damage would still get through but, at the end of 
the pulse, the second Fire Armour would be up at full protection and 
with whatever remaining duration is left.

Again, if we wanted to do so, an explicit clause in the spell 
description could prevent this from happening by stating that "any 
subsequent attempts to overlay a second Fire Armour on one that is 
currently in effect will automatically fail'".

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromHelen Saggers
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 12:10:49 +1200
Keiths got it in a nut shield.
Rather than change the general rule because of the effects of one or two
spells thus creating a headache of knock on effects for all spells, lets
just  change the description of the spells themselves to disallow the
effect.
Although as others have said is it really a problem?

Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromStruan Judd
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 12:53:24 +1200
Yes it is a problem. It is a way around some specific limitations in a
number of spells and it gives further reasons for party's to assemble.

And the per spell fix runs the risk of missing some, or not being
applied to new spells designed or gifted.

Yes it, depowers (usually very slightly) some spells and will force
party's to plan better.

Not neccessarily a bad thing either.

TTFN, Struan.

On 9/11/07, Helen Saggers <helen@owbn.net.nz> wrote:
> Keiths got it in a nut shield.
> Rather than change the general rule because of the effects of one or two
> spells thus creating a headache of knock on effects for all spells, lets
> just  change the description of the spells themselves to disallow the
> effect.
> Although as others have said is it really a problem?
>
> Helen
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook fixing
FromMichael Woodhams
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 13:04:13 +1200
Note that this will substantially depower Damnum Minatum as a combat
spell. 

On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 09:51, Struan Judd wrote:
> Uniqueness
> 
> A Target can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell
> cast by an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the
> same Spell by the same Adept against the same Target will simply fail
> for that Target.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 13:45:39 +1200
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>
> On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:
> >
> >  If you would like to fix something that is clearly broken and people
> > use all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to
> > do with having spells.
> >
> > Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then
> > following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an entity
> > and get both effects in effect at once.
> >
> > Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the spell stopping
> > when the points of protection are used. Because the second effect is the
> > same as the first, they Queue. Again not good.
> >
>
Hi Jono,

That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I'm having a little trouble
understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could you perhaps
expand a bit?

SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule, but
that could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase changing: "If a
spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of a spell which
has the same effect", to "If a spell is cast on a target that is already
under the effect of the same spell or a spell which has the same effect".

This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar
spells unless explicitly permitted. E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum can
be cast more than once on the same target provided that each bestows a
different curse effect.

Cheers,
Martin

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<div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><blockquote><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">
Jonathan 
  Bean</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt; 
  wrote:</span> 
  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
    <div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-US">
    <div><p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">If you would like 
    to fix something that is clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the 
    Queueing part of spells in the magic section, to do with having 
    spells.</span></font></p>
    <p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Given that the 
    effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS or EN then following the Spell 
    overlapping rules below you can cast twice on an entity and get both effects 
    in effect at once.</span></font></p>
    <p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial;">Also Fire Armour is 
    the other classic example with the spell stopping when the points of 
    protection are used. Because the second effect is the same as the first, 
    they Queue. Again not good.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br>Hi Jono,<br><br>That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I&#39;m having a little trouble understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could you perhaps expand a bit?
<br><br><span>SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule, but that could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase changing: &quot;If a spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of a spell which has the same effect&quot;, to 
</span><span>&quot;If a spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of <span style="font-weight: bold;">the same spell or </span>a spell which has the same effect&quot;.<br><br>This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar spells unless explicitly permitted. 
E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum can be cast more than once on the same target provided that each bestows a different curse effect.<br><br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br></span></div><br></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook fixing
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 13:49:01 +1200
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Not unless its explicit permission to effect the same target with more than
one (different) curse was removed.

On 9/11/07, Michael Woodhams <mdw@free.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Note that this will substantially depower Damnum Minatum as a combat
> spell.
>

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Not unless its explicit permission to effect the same target with more than one (different) curse was removed.<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Michael Woodhams</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:mdw@free.net.nz">
mdw@free.net.nz</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Note that this will substantially depower Damnum Minatum as a combat spell.
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromJonathan Bean
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:11:22 +1200
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Hi all,

=20

With Fire Armour and the current rules you could reasonably say:

=20

Get the fire mage to cast 10 Fire Armour spells on the warrior at rank
10 for a duration of 11 hours (1 in effect and 9 queuing).

The warrior goes into battle and gets hit with a lot of fire damage.

Once the points of protection from the first fire armour is used up the
spell will end.

Then the second one will kick in because the first fire armour spells
duration would have ended (when the points of protection are used up).=20

This means that given a rank 10 fire armour spell (44 points of fire
protection) the warrior can in effect have 440 points of protection.=20

=20

I do not feel comfortable with this seemingly reasonable interpretation.


=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
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________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 1:46 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects

=20

		On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com>
wrote:=20

		If you would like to fix something that is clearly
broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in
the magic section, to do with having spells.

		Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS
or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast
twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at once.

		Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the
spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not good.


Hi Jono,

That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I'm having a little
trouble understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could
you perhaps expand a bit?=20

SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule,
but that could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase
changing: "If a spell is cast on a target that is already under the
effect of a spell which has the same effect", to "If a spell is cast on
a target that is already under the effect of the same spell or a spell
which has the same effect".

This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar
spells unless explicitly permitted. E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum
can be cast more than once on the same target provided that each bestows
a different curse effect.

Cheers,
Martin

=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>With Fire Armour =
and the
current rules you could reasonably say:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Get the fire =
mage to cast
10 Fire Armour spells on the warrior at rank 10 for a duration of 11 =
hours (1
in effect and 9 queuing).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The warrior goes =
into
battle and gets hit with a lot of fire =
damage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Once the points =
of
protection from the first fire armour is used up the spell will =
end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Then the second =
one will kick
in because the first fire armour spells duration would have ended (when =
the
points of protection are used up). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This means that =
given a
rank 10 fire armour spell (44 points of fire protection) the warrior can =
in
effect have 440 points of protection. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I do not feel =
comfortable
with this seemingly reasonable interpretation. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

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Roman"><span
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</div>

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lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 =
September 2007
1:46 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Rulebook -
multiple spell effects</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 9/11/07, <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><b><span
 style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Jonathan Bean</span></b></st1:PersonName> =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</span></font></span><span lang=3DEN-NZ> <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div vlink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If you would like to fix something that is
clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of =
spells in
the magic section, to do with having spells.</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Given that the effect of Strength of =
Stones can
be on PS or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules below you can =
cast
twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at =
once.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also Fire Armour is the other classic =
example
with the spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because =
the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not =
good.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Hi Jono,<br>
<br>
That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I'm having a little =
trouble
understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could you =
perhaps
expand a bit? <br>
<br>
SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule, =
but that
could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase changing: =
&quot;If a
spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of a spell =
which has
the same effect&quot;, to &quot;If a spell is cast on a target that is =
already
under the effect of <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>the same spell =
or </span></b>a
spell which has the same effect&quot;.<br>
<br>
This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar =
spells
unless explicitly permitted. E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum can be =
cast
more than once on the same target provided that each bestows a different =
curse
effect.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromJonathan Bean
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:21:12 +1200
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=20

Martin said:

"If a spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of the
same spell or a spell which has the same effect".

=20

I feel that higher ranked effects need to be taken into account -
otherwise we will end up with odd things happening like;

=20

The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at
rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not
get the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.

Entities are not able to resist 'E&E Enchant Armour spell' and with a
range of 15+15 feet it's pretty good.

=20

Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells within the
game what we want?

=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Sales Executive

M

+64 21 917 173

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________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 1:46 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects

=20

		On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com>
wrote:=20

		If you would like to fix something that is clearly
broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of spells in
the magic section, to do with having spells.

		Given that the effect of Strength of Stones can be on PS
or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules below you can cast
twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at once.

		Also Fire Armour is the other classic example with the
spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not good.


Hi Jono,

That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I'm having a little
trouble understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could
you perhaps expand a bit?=20

SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule,
but that could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase
changing: "If a spell is cast on a target that is already under the
effect of a spell which has the same effect", to "If a spell is cast on
a target that is already under the effect of the same spell or a spell
which has the same effect".

This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar
spells unless explicitly permitted. E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum
can be cast more than once on the same target provided that each bestows
a different curse effect.

Cheers,
Martin

=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Martin =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&quot;If a spell is cast on a target that is =
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or </span></b>a
spell which has the same effect&quot;.</span></font><font size=3D2 =
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face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I feel that =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>higher ranked effects</span></b> need to be =
taken into
account &#8211; otherwise we will end up with odd things happening =
like;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The E&amp;E =
Mages could
start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect =
(giving 2%
defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the benefit of a =
higher
ranked defence spell.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Entities are not =
able to
resist &#8216;E&amp;E Enchant Armour spell&#8217; and with a range of =
15+15
feet it&#8217;s pretty good.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this kind of =
tactical casting
of non-resistible spells within the game what we =
want?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 =
September 2007
1:46 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Rulebook -
multiple spell effects</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Dgmailquote><font size=3D3 =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 9/11/07, <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><b><span
 style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Jonathan Bean</span></b></st1:PersonName> =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com" =
target=3D"_blank">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</span></font></span><span lang=3DEN-NZ> <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div vlink=3Dpurple link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If you would like to fix something that is
clearly broken and people use all the time, fix the Queueing part of =
spells in
the magic section, to do with having spells.</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Given that the effect of Strength of =
Stones can
be on PS or EN then following the Spell overlapping rules below you can =
cast
twice on an entity and get both effects in effect at =
once.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also Fire Armour is the other classic =
example
with the spell stopping when the points of protection are used. Because =
the
second effect is the same as the first, they Queue. Again not =
good.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Hi Jono,<br>
<br>
That you see a problem here is clear to me, but I'm having a little =
trouble
understanding the problem as explained around Fire Armour, could you =
perhaps
expand a bit? <br>
<br>
SoS does seem to fall through the cracks in the current Queuing rule, =
but that
could be quite easily fixed by adding one extra phrase changing: =
&quot;If a
spell is cast on a target that is already under the effect of a spell =
which has
the same effect&quot;, to &quot;If a spell is cast on a target that is =
already
under the effect of <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>the same spell =
or </span></b>a
spell which has the same effect&quot;.<br>
<br>
This would then prevent two different version of SoS, and other similar =
spells
unless explicitly permitted. E.g. Per its write-up Damnum Minatum can be =
cast
more than once on the same target provided that each bestows a different =
curse
effect.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromJacqui Smith
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:15:44 +1200
At 12:53 p.m. 11/09/2007, you wrote:
>Yes it is a problem. It is a way around some specific limitations in a
>number of spells and it gives further reasons for party's to assemble.
>
>And the per spell fix runs the risk of missing some, or not being
>applied to new spells designed or gifted.
>
>Yes it, depowers (usually very slightly) some spells and will force
>party's to plan better.
>
>Not neccessarily a bad thing either.

It strikes me that the only type of spell which creates a real 
problem are the ablative armour spells....
I, for one, am not keen on running into enemies with apparently 
inexhaustible fire armour.

Perhaps a single statement regarding this type of spell would 
suffice. "An entity may not benefit from multiple casts of the same 
spell where that spell confers an ablative effect eg fire armour."

If the desire is that it is not possible to benefit from a SoS on 
endurance and on strength simultaneously, then it would be 
appropriate to reword that particular spell accordingly.

I like the idea of being able to overlap water breathing and flight 
spells... rewarding common sense and planning is all to the good.... 
and it feels intuitively correct. "Cast the new wings now, we've only 
five minutes to go....!"

Jacqui


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:21:57 +1200
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On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:
>
>  The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at
> rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get
> the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.
>
> Entities are not able to resist 'E&E Enchant Armour spell' and with a
> range of 15+15 feet it's pretty good.
>

Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target were
not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up.

Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells within the game
> what we want?
>

It is what we already have.  How often have you seen the tactic used /
abused?  How broken is this?

Cheers,
Martin

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On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">Jonathan Bean</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">














<div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US">

<div><span class="q"></span>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">The E&amp;E Mages could
start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect (giving 2%
defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the benefit of a higher
ranked defence spell.</span></font></p>

<p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">Entities are not able to
resist 'E&amp;E Enchant Armour spell' and with a range of 15+15
feet it's pretty good.</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target were not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up.
<br></div><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link="blue" vlink="blue" lang="EN-US"><div><p><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2">
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">Is this kind of tactical casting
of non-resistible spells within the game what we want?</span></font></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>It is what we already have.&nbsp; How often have you seen the tactic used / abused?&nbsp; How broken is this?<br><br>Cheers,
<br>Martin<br></div></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromJonathan Bean
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:36:49 +1200
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I think that Fire Armour is the only one I have a real issue with. Yes
the others can be used tactically but I don't think it's a real issue.=20

=20

Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
Sales Executive

M

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http://www.timedisciple.com <http://www.timedisciple.com/>=20

The information contained in this message and any files transmitted with
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________________________________

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 2:22 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects

=20

On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:

	The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour
spell at rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they
can not get the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.

	Entities are not able to resist 'E&E Enchant Armour spell' and
with a range of 15+15 feet it's pretty good.


Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target
were not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would
queue up.=20

	=20

	Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells within
the game what we want?


It is what we already have.  How often have you seen the tactic used /
abused?  How broken is this?

Cheers,=20
Martin

=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think that Fire Armour is the =
only one I
have a real issue with. Yes the others can be used tactically but I =
don&#8217;t
think it&#8217;s a real issue. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kind =
regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><st1:PersonName
style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
tabIndex=3D"0" w:st=3D"on"><strong><b><font size=3D3 color=3D"#52717f"
 face=3D"Trebuchet MS"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Trebuchet MS";
 color:#52717F'>Jonathan =
Bean</span></font></b></strong></st1:PersonName><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'color:navy'><br>
</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#52717f" face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F'>Sales =
Executive</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D5 cellpadding=3D0 =
width=3D637
 style=3D'width:477.7pt;margin-left:-5.25pt'>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>M</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5" =
face=3DVerdana><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 21 917 =
173</span></font><font
  size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D199 rowspan=3D5 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:149.3pt;border:none;
  border-left:dotted #CCCCCC 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
0cm;height:9.1pt'>
  <table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D5 =
cellpadding=3D0 width=3D253
   style=3D'width:189.7pt'>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Office</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
    style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Level 1, =
<st1:address
    tabIndex=3D"0"
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
    w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on">4 Newton Road</st1:Street>, =
<st1:City
     w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City></st1:address> </span></font><font =
size=3D1
    color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:6.0pt;font-family:
    Verdana;color:navy'>(<a
    =
href=3D"http://maps.google.com/maps?f=3Dq&amp;hl=3Den&amp;geocode=3D&amp;=
q=3D4+Newton+Rd,+Newton,+Auckland+1010,+New+Zealand&amp;sll=3D40.03804,-7=
6.30126&amp;sspn=3D0.125644,0.32135&amp;ie=3DUTF8&amp;ll=3D-36.860068,174=
.753363&amp;spn=3D0.008206,0.020084&amp;z=3D16&amp;iwloc=3Daddr&amp;om=3D=
1">Click
    here for a Google map</a>)</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Postal</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:address tabIndex=3D"0"
    style=3D"BACKGROUND-POSITION: left bottom; BACKGROUND-IMAGE: =
url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x"
    w:st=3D"on"><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span
      lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>PO Box
      2343</span></font></st1:Street><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DVerdana><span
     lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'> <st1:City
     w:st=3D"on">Auckland</st1:City></span></font></st1:address><font =
size=3D1
    color=3Dnavy face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:
    Verdana;color:navy'> 1140</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3Dnavy
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>Skype</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D12 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:9.1pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack =
face=3DVerdana><span
    lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>Time
    Disciple</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
   <tr height=3D21 style=3D'height:15.4pt'>
    <td width=3D38 height=3D21 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:28.45pt;background:
    #EBEFF0;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:15.4pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
    face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
    color:#859BA5'>gtalk</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
    style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
    <td width=3D200 height=3D21 style=3D'width:150.15pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
    height:15.4pt'>
    <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
    auto;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue =
face=3DVerdana><span
    lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><a
    =
href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a></span></font><f=
ont
    color=3Dblue><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
    </td>
   </tr>
  </table>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><b><font size=3D1
  color=3D"#52717f" face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F;font-weight:bold'>real time =
accountability
  software for clarity</span></font></b><b><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#52717f"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#52717F;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D221 rowspan=3D5 valign=3Dbottom =
style=3D'width:165.45pt;border:none;
  border-left:dotted #CCCCCC 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
0cm;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center'><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><a
  href=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/"><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy;
  text-decoration:none'><img border=3D0 width=3D185 height=3D92 =
id=3D"_x0000_i1026"
  src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01C7F480.1F71EE60" alt=3D"Time =
Disciple"></span></font></a></span></font><font
  color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>T</span></font><font size=3D1 color=3D"#859ba5" =
face=3DVerdana><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#859BA5'><o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 9 361 =
6500</span></font><font
  size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D12 style=3D'height:9.1pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D12 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>F</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D12 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:9.1pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.1pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblack face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:black'>+64 9 361 =
6504</span></font><font
  color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D21 style=3D'height:15.4pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D21 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:15.4pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>E</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D21 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:15.4pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3Dblue face=3DVerdana><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:blue'><a
  =
href=3D"mailto:jonathanb@timedisciple.com">jonathanb@timedisciple.com</a>=
</span></font><font
  color=3Dblue><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D19 style=3D'height:14.5pt'>
  <td width=3D12 height=3D19 bgcolor=3D"#EBEFF0" =
style=3D'width:8.8pt;background:#EBEFF0;
  padding:0cm 0cm 0cm .75pt;height:14.5pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
  auto;text-align:center;line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 =
color=3D"#859ba5"
  face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;
  color:#859BA5'>W</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-NZ
  style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  <td width=3D181 height=3D19 style=3D'width:135.65pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 6.0pt;
  height:14.5pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
  line-height:9.0pt'><font size=3D1 color=3D"#52717f" =
face=3DVerdana><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F'><span
  title=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/"><a =
href=3D"http://www.timedisciple.com/">http://www.timedisciple.com</a></sp=
an></font><font
  size=3D1 color=3D"#52717f" face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.5pt;
  font-family:Verdana;color:#52717F'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
  </span>
 </tr>
 <tr height=3D80 style=3D'height:60.05pt'>
  <td width=3D627 colspan=3D4 height=3D80 valign=3Dtop =
style=3D'width:470.3pt;padding:
  0cm .5pt 0cm .5pt;height:60.05pt'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;
  margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:0cm'><font size=3D1 color=3Dgray =
face=3DArial><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:gray'>The information
  contained in this message and any files transmitted with it are =
private and
  confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual(s) =
or
  entity to whom they are addressed. Any unauthorised disclosure, =
reproduction,
  distribution or improper use of this communication is strictly =
prohibited. If
  you are not the intended recipient please contact Time Disciple =
Limited on
  +6493616500 or notify sender by replying and deleting the message =
without
  copying or disclosing it. No warranties or assurances are made or =
given as to
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this
  e-mail and any attachments. </span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy><span
  lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.5pt;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 =
September 2007
2:22 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Rulebook -
multiple spell effects</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 9/11/07, <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Jonathan
 Bean</span></b></st1:PersonName> &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>=
&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The E&amp;E Mages could start casting =
their rank
15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy =
targets
so that they can not get the benefit of a higher ranked defence =
spell.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Entities are not able to resist 'E&amp;E =
Enchant
Armour spell' and with a range of 15+15 feet it's pretty =
good.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target =
were not
already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC =
1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div>

<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Is this kind of tactical casting of
non-resistible spells within the game what we =
want?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
It is what we already have.&nbsp; How often have you seen the tactic =
used /
abused?&nbsp; How broken is this?<br>
<br>
Cheers, <br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromMichael Woodhams
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:41:01 +1200
On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 14:21, Jonathan Bean wrote:
> The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell
> at rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can
> not get the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.

I've thought of such things in the past: 

Get a friendly witch to cast DM to give you a single boil in the
location of your choice, and then no hostile witch can give you 21 boils
in the location of her choice (unless she counterspells the one-boil
spell first.)

Wards can't overlap. They have a size equal to their range. Some spells
have *very large* range. So create a very large ward of who-cares-what
spell which triggers on 12 archangels dancing in a chorus line. You've
just created a region in which no other wards can be created, unless
your ward is dispelled first. (Alternatively you can try to create large
wards to detect whether there are any other wards in the range: if there
are, your ward creation will fail.)

I agree that a good solution would be to give the recipient the 'better'
of the two effects. However this gets complicated when one spell is
better in one sense (e.g. defense bonus) but worse in another (e.g.
duration.) 

For fire armour, a new casting should 'refresh' the old casting. Rank 10
cast, giving 44 pts, 11 hours. 5 hours later, target takes 20 points
damage, now having 24 pts, 6 hours. Mage recasts, and they have 44 pts,
11 hours again. 
BUT: Initial cast was double effect, on duration: 44 pts, 22 hours. 5
hours later they take damage: 24 pts, 17 hours. Then the recast: what is
the result? (a) 44 pts, 17 hours  (b) 44 pts, 11 hours (c) 24 pts, 17
hours (d) recipient's choice of b or c (what if they're unconscious?)
(e) caster's choice of b or c.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromErrol Cavit
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 15:11:52 +1200
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-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 14:22
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects


On 9/11/07, Jonathan Bean < jonathanB@timedisciple.com
<mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com> > wrote: 


The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank
0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the
benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.

Entities are not able to resist 'E&E Enchant Armour spell' and with a range
of 15+15 feet it's pretty good.


Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target were
not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up.




Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells within the game
what we want?


It is what we already have.  How often have you seen the tactic used /
abused?  How broken is this?

 


I worked out this trick some years ago, and can remember using it once -
some kind of Leprechaun was irritating us, so Darien cast a Rk0-effect
Shadowform on it. I can remember considering (maybe actually casting, can't
remember) using it once or twice more, always it situations where it would
cause the target embarrassment (Shadowform being very visible), rather than
making it easier to hit them. Note range is 10 + 1', so 25'-odd for Darien.
The general reaction from other players + GMs that I remember was 'cool
use', rather than 'that's broken'.
 
Cheers
Errol

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  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Martin 
  Dickson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, 11 September 2007 14:22<BR><B>To:</B> 
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell 
  effects<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>On 9/11/07, <B class=gmail_sendername>Jonathan 
  Bean</B> &lt;<A 
  href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</A>&gt; 
  wrote:
  <DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV lang=EN-US vlink="blue" link="blue">
    <DIV><SPAN class=q></SPAN>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-NZ 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The E&amp;E Mages 
    could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect 
    (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the benefit of 
    a higher ranked defence spell.</SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-NZ 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Entities are not 
    able to resist 'E&amp;E Enchant Armour spell' and with a range of 15+15 feet 
    it's pretty good.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the 
  target were not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would 
  queue up. <BR></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
    <DIV lang=EN-US vlink="blue" link="blue">
    <DIV>
    <P><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN lang=EN-NZ 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Is this kind of 
    tactical casting of non-resistible spells within the game what we 
    want?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><BR>It is what we already have.&nbsp; 
  How often have you seen the tactic used / abused?&nbsp; How broken is 
  this?<BR><BR><SPAN class=745065902-11092007>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><SPAN 
  class=745065902-11092007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN class=745065902-11092007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I worked out this trick some years ago, and can 
remember using it once -&nbsp;some kind of Leprechaun was irritating us, so 
Darien cast a Rk0-effect Shadowform&nbsp;on it. I can remember considering 
(maybe actually casting, can't remember) using it once or twice more, always it 
situations where it would cause the&nbsp;target embarrassment (Shadowform being 
very visible), rather than&nbsp;making it easier to hit them. Note range is 10 + 
1', so 25'-odd for Darien.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN class=745065902-11092007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The general reaction from other players + GMs 
that I remember was 'cool use', rather than 'that's broken'.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN class=745065902-11092007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN class=745065902-11092007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><SPAN class=745065902-11092007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Errol</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Subject[dq] List test - please ignore
FromKeith Smith
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 15:23:36 +1200
Test


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Subject[dq-pub] golems
FromRPer 4eva
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 15:31:50 +1200
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Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for what weights
can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a few ranks) Also
when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first about
aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.

Dylan

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<div>Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for what weights can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a few ranks) Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first about aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Dylan</div>

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Subject[dq] dq list test - please ignore
FromKeith Smith
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 15:31:09 +1200
test


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SubjectRe: [dq-pub] golems
FromRMansfield@ingnz.com
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 15:51:34 +1200
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There is a simple rule for this.  Break the strength down into chunks and=20
add up the result.

E.g. If your golem has 55 strength take the carrying capacity for 40=20
strength and add it to the carrying capacity for 15 strength and you have=20
the total number.  Ditto AG adjustments

Regards,
Rosemary




RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com>=20
Sent by: dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
11/09/2007 03:31 p.m.
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Subject
[dq-pub] golems






Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for what=20
weights can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a few=20
ranks) Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say=20
first about aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.=20
=20
Dylan

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<br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">There is a simple rule for this. &nb=
sp;Break
the strength down into chunks and add up the result.</font><br><br><font si=
ze=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">E.g. If your golem has 55 strength take
the carrying capacity for 40 strength and add it to the carrying capacity
for 15 strength and you have the total number. &nbsp;Ditto AG adjustments</=
font><br><br><font size=3D2 face=3D"sans-serif">Regards,<br>Rosemary<br></f=
ont><br><br><br><table width=3D100%><tr valign=3Dtop><td width=3D40%><font =
size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif"><b>RPer 4eva &lt;msnoverflow@gmail.com&gt;</b>=
</font><br><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Sent by: dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.o=
rg.nz</font><p><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">11/09/2007 03:31 p.m.</fo=
nt><table border><tr valign=3Dtop><td bgcolor=3Dwhite><div align=3Dcenter><=
font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">Please respond to<br>dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz<=
/font></div></table><br><td width=3D59%><table width=3D100%><tr valign=3Dto=
p><td><div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">To</font></div>=
<td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz</font><tr valign=
=3Dtop><td><div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">cc</font><=
/div><td><tr valign=3Dtop><td><div align=3Dright><font size=3D1 face=3D"san=
s-serif">Subject</font></div><td><font size=3D1 face=3D"sans-serif">[dq-pub=
] golems</font></table><br><table><tr valign=3Dtop><td><td></table><br></ta=
ble><br><br><br><font size=3D3>Just ranking my binder and I wondered if the=
re is any
list for what weights can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems
with a few ranks) Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what
do DAs say first about aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.
</font><br><font size=3D3>&nbsp;</font><br><font size=3D3>Dylan</font><br><=
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SubjectRe: [dq-pub] golems
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 16:40:54 +1200
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On 9/11/07, RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first
> about aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.
>

I would suggest that before you possess it the answer would be:
"Non-sentient Animate/Undead, plane of origin: Fish", and after you possess
it: "Sentient Animate/Undead, plane of origin: Fish".

Other than aura strength (which I would expect to increase with possession
-- at least by most PCs) the visible aura belongs to the physical object.

YMMV of course depending on GM interpretation and whim.

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On 9/11/07, <b class="gmail_sendername">RPer 4eva</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:msnoverflow@gmail.com">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><span class="gmail_quote"></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first about aura strength and secondly about plane of origion.
</div></blockquote><div><br>I would suggest that before you possess it the answer would be: &quot;Non-sentient Animate/Undead, plane of origin: Fish&quot;, and after you possess it: &quot;Sentient Animate/Undead, plane of origin: Fish&quot;.
<br><br>Other than aura strength (which I would expect to increase with possession -- at least by most PCs) the visible aura belongs to the physical object.<br><br>YMMV of course depending on GM interpretation and whim.<br>
</div></div>

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SubjectRe: [dq-pub] golems
FromClare Baldock
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 16:45:44 +1200
On 11/09/2007, at 15:31 , RPer 4eva wrote:

> Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for what  
> weights can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a  
> few ranks) Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what  
> do DAs say first about aura strength and secondly about plane of  
> origion.

If the write up doesn't give plane of origin then your next GM will  
add it. Its aura strength is unaffected by its plane of origin.

cheers,

Clare


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromBernard Hoggins
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 14:55:16 +1000 (EST)
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There is a simple answer to Fire Armour.  The spell currently has an explicit statement that it disipates when the protection is reduced to 0.
If it didn't have that it would still be an active spell with 0 protection for the remainder of it's duration.

Now a fire mage(or namer with dispel magic) could then dispel the active Fire Armour, and a queued one behind pop up but that requires the casting of a spell rather than an automatically wrapping fire armour.  I allways imagined queueing spells as being a usefull way to deal with dispel magic if you had the fatigue to spare.

Also on the SoS point, I specifically play that they can stack them like that, and generally inform my parties, yet they still almost never use it.  Only when going into a big fight and even then only on a couple of people with the double Str & End stacking.  Waters of Strength also happen to give a larger str boost for the same rank.  It's the straight fatigue question.

So I see no problem to the general queueing rule as writen in the book, and think if a specific spell is an issue (Fire armour still takes those 10+fails fatigue for that low ranked fire mage to stack up that much protection, and the damage in the inbetween bits still gets through also) we should adress that one spell, not try rewriting a rule that affects half the spells in the game.

Bernard

Jonathan Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:        v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}        st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }                     I think that Fire Armour is the only one I have a real issue with. Yes the others can be used tactically but I don’t think it’s a real issue. 
   
    Kind regards,
  Jonathan Bean
 

    
        
---------------------------------
  
  From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Martin Dickson
 Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 2:22 p.m.
 To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
 Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
  
   
  On 9/11/07, Jonathan  Bean <jonathanB@timedisciple.com> wrote:
          The E&E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.
  Entities are not able to resist 'E&E Enchant Armour spell' and with a range of 15+15 feet it's pretty good.
  
  
      
 Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target were not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up. 
  
     
      Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells within the game what we want?
  
  
      
 It is what we already have.  How often have you seen the tactic used / abused?  How broken is this?
 
 Cheers, 
 Martin
  
  
   
  
  
  

       
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There is a simple answer to Fire Armour.&nbsp; The spell currently has an explicit statement that it disipates when the protection is reduced to 0.<br>If it didn't have that it would still be an active spell with 0 protection for the remainder of it's duration.<br><br>Now a fire mage(or namer with dispel magic) could then dispel the active Fire Armour, and a queued one behind pop up but that requires the casting of a spell rather than an automatically wrapping fire armour.&nbsp; I allways imagined queueing spells as being a usefull way to deal with dispel magic if you had the fatigue to spare.<br><br>Also on the SoS point, I specifically play that they can stack them like that, and generally inform my parties, yet they still almost never use it.&nbsp; Only when going into a big fight and even then only on a couple of people with the double Str &amp; End stacking.&nbsp; Waters of Strength also happen to give a larger str boost for the same rank.&nbsp; It's the straight
 fatigue question.<br><br>So I see no problem to the general queueing rule as writen in the book, and think if a specific spell is an issue (Fire armour still takes those 10+fails fatigue for that low ranked fire mage to stack up that much protection, and the damage in the inbetween bits still gets through also) we should adress that one spell, not try rewriting a rule that affects half the spells in the game.<br><br>Bernard<br><br><b><i>Jonathan Bean &lt;jonathanB@timedisciple.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padding-left: 5px;">    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style> <![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
 namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="address"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="Street"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="PersonName"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> <!--  /* Font Definitions */  @font-face  {font-family:"MS Mincho";  panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;} @font-face  {font-family:Tahoma;  panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face  {font-family:Verdana;  panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} @font-face  {font-family:"Trebuchet MS";  panose-1:2 11 6 3 2 2 2 2 2 4;} @font-face  {font-family:"\@MS Mincho";  panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}  /* Style Definitions */  p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal  {margin:0cm;  margin-bottom:.0001pt;  font-size:12.0pt;  font-family:"Times New Roman";} a:link,
 span.MsoHyperlink  {color:blue;  text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed  {color:blue;  text-decoration:underline;} p  {mso-margin-top-alt:auto;  margin-right:0cm;  mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;  margin-left:0cm;  font-size:12.0pt;  font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.EmailStyle20  {mso-style-type:personal-reply;  font-family:Arial;  color:navy;} @page Section1  {size:612.0pt 792.0pt;  margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;} div.Section1  {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">   <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />  </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->   </o:SmartTagType></o:SmartTagType></o:SmartTagType></o:SmartTagType><div class="Section1">  <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I think that Fire Armour is the only one I have a
 real issue with. Yes the others can be used tactically but I don’t think it’s a real issue. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div>  <div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><st1:PersonName style="background-position: left bottom; background-image: url(res://ietag.dll/#34/#1001); background-repeat: repeat-x;" tabindex="0" w:st="on"><strong><b><font color="#52717f" face="Trebuchet MS" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Trebuchet MS&quot;; color: rgb(82, 113, 127);" lang="EN-NZ">Jonathan Bean</span></font></b></strong></st1:PersonName><font color="navy"><span style="color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ"><br>
 </span></font><font color="#52717f" face="Verdana" size="1"><span style="font-size: 7.5pt; font-family: Verdana; color: rgb(82, 113, 127);" lang="EN-NZ"></span></font></div></div><font color="navy" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div>  <div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">  <div>  <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;" align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">  <hr tabindex="-1" align="center" size="2" width="100%">  </span></font></div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
 font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 September 2007 2:22 p.m.<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects</span></font><o:p></o:p></div>  </div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">On 9/11/07, <st1:PersonName w:st="on"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Jonathan  Bean</span></b></st1:PersonName> &lt;<a
 href="mailto:jonathanB@timedisciple.com">jonathanB@timedisciple.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div>  <div>  <blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;">  <div link="blue" vlink="blue">  <div>  <div><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">The E&amp;E Mages could start casting their rank 15 Enchant Armour spell at rank 0 effect (giving 2% defence) on enemy targets so that they can not get the benefit of a higher ranked defence spell.</span></font><o:p></o:p></div>  <div><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">Entities are not able to resist 'E&amp;E Enchant Armour spell' and with a range of 15+15 feet
 it's pretty good.</span></font><o:p></o:p></div>  </div>  </div>  </blockquote>  <div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br> Not an unreasonable point, although that would only work if the target were not already under a running defence spell, otherwise the Rk0 would queue up. <o:p></o:p></span></font></div>  </div>  <blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color rgb(204, 204, 204); border-width: medium medium medium 1pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;">  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div>  <div link="blue" vlink="blue">  <div>  <div><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;" lang="EN-NZ">Is this kind of tactical casting of non-resistible spells
 within the game what we want?</span></font><o:p></o:p></div>  </div>  </div>  </blockquote>  <div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><br> It is what we already have.&nbsp; How often have you seen the tactic used / abused?&nbsp; How broken is this?<br> <br> Cheers, <br> Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></div>  </div>  </div>  <div class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div>  </div>  </div>  </blockquote><br><p>&#32;


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SubjectRe: [dq-pub] golems
FromAndrew Withy
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 17:25:05 +1200
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(1) section 5.4, bottom paragraph of the middle column of page 21.
When an entity has a Physical Strength value greater

than 40, the GM divides that value by 40. Multiply

the quotient by the entry for 40, and add the entry corresponding

to the remainder to determine that entity's

capabilities.

 

(2) GM Whim, I think. I'd go for sentient animate & the other plane -
banishment may or may not work, depending on circumstance.

 

Don't forget how heavy and noisy & intrusive stone golems are - they have a
severe trade off for their PS.

 

Regards

 

Andrew

 

  _____  

From: dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf
Of RPer 4eva
Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2007 3:32 p.m.
To: dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq-pub] golems

 

Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for what weights
can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a few ranks) Also
when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first about
aura strength and secondly about plane of origion. 

 

Dylan


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(1) section
5.4, bottom paragraph of the middle column of page 21.<br>
</span></font><font size=3D1><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>When an =
entity has a
Physical Strength value greater<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>than 40, the GM =
divides
that value by 40. Multiply<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>the quotient by =
the entry
for 40, and add the entry corresponding<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>to the =
remainder to
determine that entity&#8217;s<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>capabilities.</span></font><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(2) GM Whim, I think. I&#8217;d go =
for
sentient animate &amp; the other plane &#8211; banishment may or may not =
work,
depending on circumstance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Don&#8217;t forget how heavy and =
noisy
&amp; intrusive stone golems are &#8211; they have a severe trade off =
for their
PS.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-pub-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>RPer 4eva<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 =
September 2007
3:32 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
dq-pub@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq-pub] =
golems</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Just ranking my binder and I wondered if there is any list for =
what
weights can be carried over 40 str. (Easy for stone golems with a few =
ranks)
Also when I possess a golem made on another plane what do DAs say first =
about
aura strength and secondly about plane of origion. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Dylan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromCosmo
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 17:44:29 +1200
Personally, I can live with that with the proviso that any damage that 
is left after ablating the final points of one layer of Fire Armour is 
applied to the character before the next ready to protect them.

However, it does strongly resemble the situation that got Protection 
from Magical Fire removed from the rulebook all those years ago, though 
with a lot more perspiration from the Fire mage.

Basically, if a party are expecting this much fire damage they are 
either paranoid or need it direly.

And congratulations, they are playing "well hard".


(Disclaimer: Never used Fire magics on a party as GM. Should probably 
try it out.)

ben

Jonathan Bean wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>  
>
> With Fire Armour and the current rules you could reasonably say:
>
>  
>
> Get the fire mage to cast 10 Fire Armour spells on the warrior at rank 
> 10 for a duration of 11 hours (1 in effect and 9 queuing).
>
> The warrior goes into battle and gets hit with a lot of fire damage.
>
> Once the points of protection from the first fire armour is used up 
> the spell will end.
>
> Then the second one will kick in because the first fire armour spells 
> duration would have ended (when the points of protection are used up).
>
> This means that given a rank 10 fire armour spell (44 points of fire 
> protection) the warrior can in effect have 440 points of protection.
>
>  
>
> I do not feel comfortable with this seemingly reasonable interpretation.
>
>  
>
> Kind regards,
>
> **Jonathan Bean**
> Sales Executive
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook fixing
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 21:36:53 +1200
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> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:04:13 +1200> Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook fixing>=
 From: mdw@free.net.nz> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz> > Note that this will substant=
ially depower Damnum Minatum as a combat> spell. > > On Tue, 2007-09-11 at =
09:51, Struan Judd wrote:> > Uniqueness> > > > A Target can only be current=
ly affected once by a particular Spell> > cast by an particular Adept. Any =
subsequent successful cast of the> > same Spell by the same Adept against t=
he same Target will simply fail> > for that Target.
So after the first whitefire/fireball etc hit I don't have to worry about a=
nother one? Or do you mean only duration spells like agony/charm?
=20
Does a backfire that "works' count as a successful cast?
=20
What about healing/empathy?
=20
Restoritives? A second Quickness if the fight lasts long enough?
=20
If I lose control of my elemental does this mean I shouldn't try to recast =
my control becuase it won't work?
=20
My vote is change the wording spell by spell so that all ramifications can =
be taken under advisement.
=20
TTFN
Michael Scott
_________________________________________________________________
Discover the new Windows Vista
http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=3Dwindows+vista&mkt=3Den-US&form=3DQBR=
E=

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<BR><BR>&gt; Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:04:13 +1200<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: [dq=
] Rulebook fixing<BR>&gt; From: mdw@free.net.nz<BR>&gt; To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=
<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Note that this will substantially depower Damnum Minatum =
as a combat<BR>&gt; spell. <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 09:51, S=
truan Judd wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; Uniqueness<BR>&gt; &gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; A Targ=
et can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell<BR>&gt; &gt; c=
ast by an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the<BR>&gt; &=
gt; same Spell by the same Adept against the same Target will simply fail<B=
R>&gt; &gt; for that Target.<BR><BR>
So after the first whitefire/fireball etc hit I don't have to worry about a=
nother one? Or do you mean only duration spells like agony/charm?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Does a backfire that "works' count as a successful cast?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
What about healing/empathy?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Restoritives? A second Quickness if the fight lasts long enough?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
If I lose control of my elemental does this mean I shouldn't try to recast =
my control becuase it won't work?<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
My vote is change the wording spell by spell so that all ramifications can =
be taken under advisement.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
TTFN<BR>
Michael Scott<BR><br /><hr />Discover the new Windows Vista <a href=3D'http=
://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=3Dwindows+vista&mkt=3Den-US&form=3DQBRE' t=
arget=3D'_new'>Learn more!</a></body>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook - multiple spell effects
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 21:40:43 +1200
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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:11:22 +1200Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multiple =
spell effectsFrom: jonathanB@timedisciple.comTo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz








Hi all,
=20
With Fire Armour and the current rules you could reasonably say:
=20
Get the fire mage to cast 10 Fire Armour spells on the warrior at rank 10 f=
or a duration of 11 hours (1 in effect and 9 queuing).
The warrior goes into battle and gets hit with a lot of fire damage.
Once the points of protection from the first fire armour is used up the spe=
ll will end.
Then the second one will kick in because the first fire armour spells durat=
ion would have ended (when the points of protection are used up).=20
This means that given a rank 10 fire armour spell (44 points of fire protec=
tion) the warrior can in effect have 440 points of protection.=20
=20
I do not feel comfortable with this seemingly reasonable interpretation.=20
=20

won't the enemy namer just dispell counter disjunction or whatever the fire=
 armour which would remove the running spell and those cued?=20
_________________________________________________________________
Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger=A0
http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=3Den-us&sourc=
e=3Dwlmailtagline=

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<HR>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:11:22 +1200<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook - multi=
ple spell effects<BR>From: jonathanB@timedisciple.com<BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.n=
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<DIV class=3DEC_Section1>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi all,=
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<=
/SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">With Fi=
re Armour and the current rules you could reasonably say:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<=
/SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Get the=
 fire mage to cast 10 Fire Armour spells on the warrior at rank 10 for a du=
ration of 11 hours (1 in effect and 9 queuing).</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The war=
rior goes into battle and gets hit with a lot of fire damage.</SPAN></FONT>=
</P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Once th=
e points of protection from the first fire armour is used up the spell will=
 end.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Then th=
e second one will kick in because the first fire armour spells duration wou=
ld have ended (when the points of protection are used up). </SPAN></FONT></=
P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This me=
ans that given a rank 10 fire armour spell (44 points of fire protection) t=
he warrior can in effect have 440 points of protection. </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<=
/SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I do no=
t feel comfortable with this seemingly reasonable interpretation. </SPAN></=
FONT></P>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;<=
/SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DEC_MsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-NZ style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">won't the enemy namer just&nbsp;dispell =
counter disjunction or whatever the fire armour which would remove the&nbsp=
;running spell and those cued?&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQU=
OTE><br /><hr />Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger=A0  <a href=
=3D'http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=3Den-us&s=
ource=3Dwlmailtagline' target=3D'_new'>Get it now! </a></body>
</html>=

--_7ae68907-db6c-4e20-99c6-21fca01d67cd_--

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--_4f99a15a-2649-442f-96a3-8bbb11953c5a_--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Rulebook fixing
FromStruan Judd
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 22:33:02 +1200
On 9/11/07, Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:04:13 +1200
> > Subject: Re: [dq] Rulebook fixing
> > From: mdw@free.net.nz
> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> >
> > Note that this will substantially depower Damnum Minatum as a combat
> > spell.
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-09-11 at 09:51, Struan Judd wrote:
> > > Uniqueness
> > >
> > > A Target can only be currently affected once by a particular Spell
> > > cast by an particular Adept. Any subsequent successful cast of the
> > > same Spell by the same Adept against the same Target will simply fail
> > > for that Target.
>
>  So after the first whitefire/fireball etc hit I don't have to worry about
> another one? Or do you mean only duration spells like agony/charm?

Most damage spell have duration Immediate so the spell is finished,
just the damage remains.

>  Does a backfire that "works' count as a successful cast?

Nope, just like you can't counterspell a backfire.

>  What about healing/empathy?

Again, duration is immediate, but the healing remains.

>  Restoritives?

Still Immediate.

> A second Quickness if the fight lasts long enough?

Can't have the second one till the first one runs out.

>  If I lose control of my elemental does this mean I shouldn't try to recast
> my control becuase it won't work?

Hmm, Suspect the duration of the Control is Concentration, so no problems there.

>  My vote is change the wording spell by spell so that all ramifications can
> be taken under advisement.

I'll restate my case. I greatly prefer general rules to case by case exceptions.

>  TTFN
>  Michael Scott

TTFN, Struan.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
Subject[dq] Spell queuing from 1996
FromRoss Alexander
DateTue, 11 Sep 2007 12:45:26 +0100
This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format.

--------------ms090902030108060905010901
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Below is the text for spell stacking / queuing from r1.1 (1996).  I 
don't believe it has changed in 10 years.  This is one of the most 
fundamental sections of the rules at it governs how all durational spell 
effects interact.  Note that is a general rule and will be overridden by 
spell specific rules (eg counterspells).

-------------
\subsubsection{Queuing}

Spells that have the same effects are not cumulative. If a spell is
cast on a target that is already under the effect of a spell which has
the same effect, then the spell "queues". This means that, although
the spell is in effect on the target, it has no effect until the
earlier spell is gone.

Spells with any overlapping effects are affected by this rule. Note
that it is the spells' effects that are important, not the spell
itself. If the spells both affect one attribute (e.g., defence), they
queue. If two spells affect different attributes (e.g., PS \& FT), they
stack. This rule also applies to items. Unless stated otherwise, any
item that contains a magical effect that can be caused by a spell,
cannot be affected by that spell (eg; a weapon with a magical bonus to
hit or damage may not stack with Weapon of Flames).

The duration of the second, queuing, spell is measured from casting,
but it only takes effect when the first spell wears off.
---------------

On the two particular spells in question, ie Fire Armour and Strength of 
Stone, there are problems.

For Fire Armour, the current rules would allow multiple spells to be 
running, and when the first one is used up, the next will kick in.  If 
there is a consensus that this is a problem, simple add "The Fire Armour 
spell will not work if the target is currently already under the affects 
of a Fire Armour spell."

For Strength of Stone, vote either 1) it is allowed simutanously on PS & 
EN, 2) it isn't, 3) GM's choice.

As for the "Putting a rank 0 spell on an enemy so they can't put on 
their Rank 20" spells has been mentioned in the past, but it has never 
come up in a game, mostly I guess because PCs have better things to do 
with their actions, and a lot of GMs would simply ignore it as an abuse 
of the rules.


Ross Alexander
Phone: +44 20 8752 3394
SAP Basis, Technical Support Services, Corporate IT Centre, NEC Europe 
Limited

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