SubjectRe: [dq] Mage Current -- modification discussion
FromMichael Scott
DateThu, 6 Mar 2008 23:28:40 +1200
--_0d683214-55ef-4b76-8c88-c267864a5676_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I assumed the disscussion portion would take 3-6 months there by allowing p=
lenty of time for people to become aware of voting issues, but as changes w=
ounldn't take effect until the next meeting anyway I don't see any problem =
in taking a bit longer.
=20
TFFN
Michael



Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:22:22 +1100Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modif=
ication discussionFrom: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nzTo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz




interesting, though i think we should have a season to vote rules in - what=
 is the rush? I travel a lot and dont check teh wiki that often, changes co=
uld go through before i was aware of discussions.
=20
Actively seeking votes for change at least makes it mandatory to make peopl=
e aware of possible rule changes.
=20
Ian
----- Original Message ----From: Martin Dickson <martin..dickson@gmail.com>=
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nzSent: Thursday, 6 March, 2008 9:18:28 AMSubject: Re: [dq=
] Mage Current -- modification discussionOn Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, M=
ichael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> wrote:



Could I sugest that instead of voting at a Gods meeting there be a page on =
the wiki where porposals are put foward for discussion and after a set peri=
od of time put to a vote. Each GM has one week in which to register his/her=
 vote and then it closes and we have an actionable result. I believe this w=
ill give everyone a chance to have there say and vote without worring about=
 availablity issues or cetain personalities being in the same space. To fur=
ther ensure every gm knows about discussions and votes a notification can b=
e e-mailed to all. Just a thought.
Good thought. :-) Sounds like a reasonable starting place for a discussion =
around revising the way proposals & voting occur.Cheers,Martin

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/=

--_0d683214-55ef-4b76-8c88-c267864a5676_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<FONT color=3D#ff6600>I assumed the disscussion portion would take 3-6 mont=
hs there by allowing plenty of time for people to become aware of voting is=
sues, but as changes wounldn't take effect until the next meeting anyway I =
don't see any problem in taking a bit longer.</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=3D#ff6600></FONT>&nbsp;<BR>
<FONT color=3D#ff6600>TFFN</FONT><BR>
<FONT color=3D#ff6600>Michael<BR>
<BR><BR><BR></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:22:22 +1100<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- m=
odification discussion<BR>From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz<BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=
<BR><BR>
<META content=3D"Microsoft SafeHTML" name=3DGenerator>
<STYLE>
.ExternalClass DIV
{;}

</STYLE>

<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">interesting, though i&nbsp;think we should have a season to vote =
rules in - what is the rush? I travel a&nbsp;lot and dont check teh wiki th=
at often, changes could go through before i was aware of discussions.</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">Actively seeking votes for change at least makes it mandatory to =
make people aware of possible rule changes.</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">Ian<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Martin Dickson &lt;martin..d=
ickson@gmail.com&gt;<BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 200=
8 9:18:28 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification discussion<B=
R><BR>On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Michael Scott &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:=
big_mac_kd@hotmail.com" rel=3Dnofollow>big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</A>&gt; wrote=
:<BR>
<DIV class=3DEC_gmail_quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3DEC_gmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT:=
 rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=3D#800080>Could I sugest that instead of voting at =
a Gods meeting there be a page on the wiki where porposals are put foward f=
or discussion and after a set period of time put to a vote. Each GM has one=
 week in which to register his/her vote and then it closes and we have an a=
ctionable result. I believe this will give everyone a chance to have there =
say and vote without worring about availablity issues or cetain personaliti=
es being in the same space. To further ensure every gm knows about discussi=
ons and votes a notification can be e-mailed to all.</FONT><BR><FONT color=
=3D#800080></FONT>&nbsp;<BR><FONT color=3D#800080>Just a thought.</FONT></B=
LOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><BR>Good thought. :-) Sounds like a reasonable starting place for a di=
scussion around revising the way proposals &amp; voting occur.<BR><BR>Cheer=
s,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, time=
s, serif"><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><br /><hr />Express yourself instant=
ly with MSN Messenger! <a href=3D'http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200471av=
e/direct/01/' target=3D'_new'>MSN Messenger</a></body>
</html>=

--_0d683214-55ef-4b76-8c88-c267864a5676_--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting methods
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 08:55:51 +1300 
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FC4.14A5A68B
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Some general thoughts.
 
It is rare for new discussion to happen on an issue more than a couple of
weeks after it is brought up. I'm NOT saying that this should be the
minimum/maximum/standard period allowed, it's just an observation.
 
If we use wiki-voting, once a period for voting is set, it should be emailed
to DQ-announce. The wiki is a passive 'pull' method of communication, while
email is 'push'. The point of using DQ-announce is that the volume of posts
is small, so it should be easy for people to direct it to a mail folder that
they look at fairly often, while still avoiding the possible large volume of
general discussion if they desire. Reminders of approaching closure of
voting windows should also be sent.
Related to this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, this
season's venue change provides a good example of why.
 
Notifications of decisions should be made at guild meetings (as well as on
e-lists) to make sure that everyone is aware of up-coming changes.
 
If we use proxies, they should be as public as possible (to minimise
allegations of stacking etc). I'm not sure how to handle timing issues (e.g.
going incommunicado before proposals are finalised, discovering that you are
unable to attend at short notice).
 
Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Michael Scott
Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 00:29
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification discussion


I assumed the disscussion portion would take 3-6 months there by allowing
plenty of time for people to become aware of voting issues, but as changes
wounldn't take effect until the next meeting anyway I don't see any problem
in taking a bit longer.
 
TFFN
Michael





  _____  

Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:22:22 +1100
Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification discussion
From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz


interesting, though i think we should have a season to vote rules in - what
is the rush? I travel a lot and dont check teh wiki that often, changes
could go through before i was aware of discussions.
 
Actively seeking votes for change at least makes it mandatory to make people
aware of possible rule changes.
 
Ian


----- Original Message ----
From: Martin Dickson <martin..dickson@gmail.com>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Sent: Thursday, 6 March, 2008 9:18:28 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification discussion

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Michael Scott < big_mac_kd@hotmail.com
<mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> > wrote:


Could I sugest that instead of voting at a Gods meeting there be a page on
the wiki where porposals are put foward for discussion and after a set
period of time put to a vote. Each GM has one week in which to register
his/her vote and then it closes and we have an actionable result. I believe
this will give everyone a chance to have there say and vote without worring
about availablity issues or cetain personalities being in the same space. To
further ensure every gm knows about discussions and votes a notification can
be e-mailed to all.
 
Just a thought.


Good thought. :-) Sounds like a reasonable starting place for a discussion
around revising the way proposals & voting occur.

Cheers,
Martin





  _____  

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! MSN
<http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/> Messenger 


------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FC4.14A5A68B
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<STYLE>.hmmessage P {
	PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
BODY.hmmessage {
	FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma
}
</STYLE>

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY class=hmmessage>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>Some general 
thoughts.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>It is rare 
for new discussion to happen on an issue more than a couple of weeks after it is 
brought up. I'm NOT saying that this should be the minimum/maximum/standard 
period allowed, it's just an observation.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>If we use 
wiki-voting, once a period for voting is set, it should be emailed to 
DQ-announce. The wiki is a passive 'pull' method of communication, while email 
is 'push'. The point of using DQ-announce is that the volume of posts is small, 
so it should be easy for people to direct it to a mail folder that they look at 
fairly often, while still avoiding the possible large volume of general 
discussion if they desire. Reminders of approaching closure of voting windows 
should also be sent.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>Related to 
this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, this season's venue 
change provides a good example of why.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>Notifications 
of decisions should be made at guild meetings (as well as on e-lists) to make 
sure that everyone is aware of up-coming changes.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=996412619-06032008>If we use 
proxies, they should be as public as possible (to minimise allegations of 
stacking etc). I'm not sure how to handle timing issues (e.g. going 
incommunicado before proposals are finalised, discovering that you are unable to 
attend at short notice).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008>Cheers</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN 
class=996412619-06032008>Errol</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman">-----Original 
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Michael 
  Scott<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, 7 March 2008 00:29<BR><B>To:</B> 
  dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification 
  discussion<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>I assumed the disscussion 
  portion would take 3-6 months there by allowing plenty of time for people to 
  become aware of voting issues, but as changes wounldn't take effect until the 
  next meeting anyway I don't see any problem in taking a bit 
  longer.</FONT><BR><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT>&nbsp;<BR><FONT 
  color=#ff6600>TFFN</FONT><BR><FONT 
color=#ff6600>Michael<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE>
    <HR>
    Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 18:22:22 +1100<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- 
    modification discussion<BR>From: dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz<BR>To: 
    dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><BR>
    <META content="Microsoft SafeHTML" name=Generator>
    <STYLE>.ExternalClass DIV {
	
}
</STYLE>

    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">interesting, 
    though i&nbsp;think we should have a season to vote rules in - what is the 
    rush? I travel a&nbsp;lot and dont check teh wiki that often, changes could 
    go through before i was aware of discussions.</DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Actively 
    seeking votes for change at least makes it mandatory to make people aware of 
    possible rule changes.</DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Ian<BR><BR></DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- 
    Original Message ----<BR>From: Martin Dickson 
    &lt;martin..dickson@gmail.com&gt;<BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>Sent: Thursday, 
    6 March, 2008 9:18:28 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Mage Current -- modification 
    discussion<BR><BR>On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Michael Scott &lt;<A 
    href="mailto:big_mac_kd@hotmail.com" 
    rel=nofollow>big_mac_kd@hotmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>
    <DIV class=EC_gmail_quote>
    <BLOCKQUOTE class=EC_gmail_quote 
    style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">
      <DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#800080>Could I sugest that instead of voting at 
        a Gods meeting there be a page on the wiki where porposals are put 
        foward for discussion and after a set period of time put to a vote. Each 
        GM has one week in which to register his/her vote and then it closes and 
        we have an actionable result. I believe this will give everyone a chance 
        to have there say and vote without worring about availablity issues or 
        cetain personalities being in the same space. To further ensure every gm 
        knows about discussions and votes a notification can be e-mailed to 
        all.</FONT><BR><FONT color=#800080></FONT>&nbsp;<BR><FONT 
        color=#800080>Just a thought.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <DIV><BR>Good thought. :-) Sounds like a reasonable starting place for a 
    discussion around revising the way proposals &amp; voting 
    occur.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>Martin<BR></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
  <HR>
  Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! <A 
  href="http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/" target=_new>MSN 
  Messenger</A> </BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FC4.14A5A68B--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting methods
FromKeith Smith
DateFri, 07 Mar 2008 09:42:19 +1300
--=====================_219370531==.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


>If we use wiki-voting, once a period for voting is set, it should be 
>emailed to DQ-announce. The wiki is a passive 'pull' method of 
>communication, while email is 'push'. The point of using DQ-announce 
>is that the volume of posts is small, so it should be easy for 
>people to direct it to a mail folder that they look at fairly often, 
>while still avoiding the possible large volume of general discussion 
>if they desire. Reminders of approaching closure of voting windows 
>should also be sent.

Agreed.

>Related to this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, 
>this season's venue change provides a good example of why.

Everyone should be on dq-announce by default. The way the system is 
set up, adding to dq or dq-pub automatically adds to dq-announce.

>Notifications of decisions should be made at guild meetings (as well 
>as on e-lists) to make sure that everyone is aware of up-coming changes.

Yes ... they also should be in the minutes. Believe it or not, we 
still have a minute book of sorts.

>If we use proxies, they should be as public as possible (to minimise 
>allegations of stacking etc). I'm not sure how to handle timing 
>issues (e.g. going incommunicado before proposals are finalised, 
>discovering that you are unable to attend at short notice).

Proxies, IMHO, should be double signed, by the person making the 
proxy, and by the person presenting the proxy to verify it's 
authenticity.  Not sure how that's going to work for email proxies, I 
guess they should be sent, either to the Secretary, or whoever is 
going to be chairing that meeting.

Keith

--=====================_219370531==.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

<html>
<body>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font color="#0000FF">If we use
wiki-voting, once a period for voting is set, it should be emailed to
DQ-announce. The wiki is a passive 'pull' method of communication, while
email is 'push'. The point of using DQ-announce is that the volume of
posts is small, so it should be easy for people to direct it to a mail
folder that they look at fairly often, while still avoiding the possible
large volume of general discussion if they desire. Reminders of
approaching closure of voting windows should also be
sent.</font></blockquote><br>
Agreed. <br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font color="#0000FF">Related to
this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, this season's
venue change provides a good example of why.</font></blockquote><br>
Everyone should be on dq-announce by default. The way the system is set
up, adding to dq or dq-pub automatically adds to dq-announce.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font color="#0000FF">
Notifications of decisions should be made at guild meetings (as well as
on e-lists) to make sure that everyone is aware of up-coming
changes.</font></blockquote><br>
Yes ... they also should be in the minutes. Believe it or not, we still
have a minute book of sorts. <br>
&nbsp;<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font color="#0000FF">If we use
proxies, they should be as public as possible (to minimise allegations of
stacking etc). I'm not sure how to handle timing issues (e.g. going
incommunicado before proposals are finalised, discovering that you are
unable to attend at short notice).</font></blockquote><br>
Proxies, IMHO, should be double signed, by the person making the proxy,
and by the person presenting the proxy to verify it's authenticity.&nbsp;
Not sure how that's going to work for email proxies, I guess they should
be sent, either to the Secretary, or whoever is going to be chairing that
meeting.<br><br>
Keith<br>
</body>
</html>

--=====================_219370531==.ALT--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting methods
FromErrol Cavit
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 10:02:22 +1300 
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FCD.5F9BAF51
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

 

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of Keith
Smith
Sent: Friday, 7 March 2008 09:42
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Voting methods




Related to this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, this
season's venue change provides a good example of why.


Everyone should be on dq-announce by default. The way the system is set up,
adding to dq or dq-pub automatically adds to dq-announce.
 
 

Yes, but we should make sure that players know that being on DQ-announce is
a good and useful (as well as low-volume) thing, even if they have no
interest in the other two lists.
 
Cheers
Errol 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FCD.5F9BAF51
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">


<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz 
  [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]<B>On Behalf Of</B> Keith Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B> 
  Friday, 7 March 2008 09:42<BR><B>To:</B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B>Subject:</B> 
  Re: [dq] Voting methods<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT color=#0000ff>Related to 
    this, we should encourage everyone to be on DQ-announce, this season's venue 
    change provides a good example of why.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><BR>Everyone should be on dq-announce by default. The way the system is 
  set up, adding to dq or dq-pub automatically adds to 
  dq-announce.<BR>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN class=465535820-06032008><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV><SPAN class=465535820-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Yes, 
but we should make sure that players&nbsp;know that being on DQ-announce is a 
good and useful (as well&nbsp;as low-volume) thing, even if they have no 
interest in the other two lists.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=465535820-06032008></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=465535820-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=465535820-06032008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>Errol</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C87FCD.5F9BAF51--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting methods
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 10:20:08 +1300 (NZDT)
Simple enough to implement voting on-line, provided we can agree on a process and rules.

For example, the process might be:

1. Discussion, draft ideas, informal polling, to refine issue and solutions.

2. Define issue and proposed solution.

3. Voting to accept into play test.

4. Voting to accept into the rules.

And the rules:

A. All issues must be accompanied by a solution.  No solution, nothing to vote on.

B. Play Test Voting requires 50% approval from at least 10 GMs, voting will be open for 6 weeks
from posting.

C. Issues and Solutions may be changed but must be re-submitted to Play Test Voting.

D. Final Acceptance Voting must be at least 3 months after initial Play Testing Voting and at
least 1 month from the last PTV.

E. Final Acceptance Voting requires 70% approval from at least 12 GMs, voting will be open for 6
weeks.

Cheers, Stephen.


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
Subject[dq] Voting on line
FromHelen Saggers
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 10:55:15 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C88041.B9CBCD30
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, Michael Scott <big_mac_kd@hotmail.com> =
wrote:

Could I sugest that instead of voting at a Gods meeting there be a page =
on the wiki where porposals are put foward for discussion and after a =
set period of time put to a vote. Each GM has one week in which to =
register his/her vote and then it closes and we have an actionable =
result. I believe this will give everyone a chance to have there say and =
vote without worring about availablity issues or cetain personalities =
being in the same space. To further ensure every gm knows about =
discussions and votes a notification can be e-mailed to all.
=20
Just like Jacqui, I don't think this is a good Idea.

Yes voting at a gods meeting can mean that rules get passes/or failed by =
the small group of  GMs present.
And at first glance it seems like a good Idea.... many on line =
organizations do things that way, but....

The Guild is supposed to be a face to face gaming group, we are supposed =
to get together.... =20
We have noted a drop in attendance of guild meetings as people sign up =
for games on line....
I note that some GMs that are at guild meetings choose not to attend =
Gods meetings....
I note that when something controversial or important comes up for vote =
that both guild meeting and Gods meeting attendance increases.....

I fear that if Gods can vote on line, there will be even less reason for =
GMs to attend guild/gods meetings...=20
I fear that all we will get at the Gods meeting are those GMs without =
full games... just as we have seen a trend of mostly players without =
games for the meetings.
I fear we will not have the GMs who are not already running that season =
to "encourage to volunteer" for overflows.
This in turn could result in people not getting games.
As we know fear of being gameless is one of the causes for the trend of =
prearranging games, which combined with busy lives drops guild meeting =
attendance.

Not to mention the difficulty of deciding who gets to vote.
If voting goes on line you have all sorts of  issues with policing who =
is able to vote... just as you do with authenticating proxies.
Currently if you attend the gods meeting you get a vote, keeping track =
of who is a GM or who is still active isn't an issue.=20
If your there your active.

While I won't deny the global wanderers their right to have input or  to =
express their opinion etc. After what period of time not actually GMing =
or playing should you loose your vote?

Its better to leave things as they are, and maybe looking at  the issue =
of allowing proxy votes for those who like Bernard are active and =
regularly GMing but are kept from the meeting by work or other such =
commitments.


Helen.
------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C88041.B9CBCD30
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<STYLE></STYLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16608" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY class=3Dhmmessage bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D"">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 12:39 AM, =
Michael Scott=20
&lt;big_mac_kd@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<BR><BR>Could I sugest that instead =
of=20
voting at a Gods meeting there be a page on the wiki where porposals are =
put=20
foward for discussion and after a set period of time put to a vote. Each =
GM has=20
one week in which to register his/her vote and then it closes and we =
have an=20
actionable result. I believe this will give everyone a chance to have =
there say=20
and vote without worring about availablity issues or cetain =
personalities being=20
in the same space. To further ensure every gm knows about discussions =
and votes=20
a notification can be e-mailed to all.<BR>&nbsp;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Just=20
like Jacqui, I don't think this is a good Idea.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Yes voting at a gods =
meeting can mean=20
that rules get passes/or failed&nbsp;by&nbsp;the small group of&nbsp; =
GMs=20
present.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>And at first glance it =
seems like a=20
good Idea.... many on line organizations do things that way,=20
but....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The Guild is supposed =
to be a face to=20
face gaming group, we are supposed to get together....&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>We have noted a drop in =
attendance of=20
guild meetings as people sign up for games on line....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I note that some GMs =
that are at=20
guild meetings choose not to attend Gods meetings....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I note that when =
something=20
controversial or important comes up for vote that both guild meeting and =
Gods=20
meeting attendance increases.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I fear that if Gods can =
vote on line,=20
there will be even less reason for GMs to attend guild/gods meetings...=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I fear that all we will =
get at the=20
Gods meeting&nbsp;are those GMs without full games... just as we have =
seen a=20
trend of mostly players without games for the meetings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I fear we will not have =
the GMs who=20
are not already running that season to "encourage to volunteer" for=20
overflows.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>This in turn&nbsp;could =
result in=20
people not getting games.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As we know fear of =
being gameless is=20
one of the causes&nbsp;for the trend of&nbsp;prearranging games, which =
combined=20
with busy lives drops guild meeting attendance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Not to mention the =
difficulty of=20
deciding who gets to vote.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>If voting goes on line =
you have all=20
sorts of&nbsp; issues with policing who is able to vote... just as you =
do with=20
authenticating proxies.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Currently if you attend =
the gods=20
meeting you get a vote,&nbsp;keeping track of who is a GM or who is =
still active=20
isn't an issue. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>If your there your=20
active.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>While I won't =
deny&nbsp;the=20
global&nbsp;wanderers their right to have input or &nbsp;to express =
their=20
opinion etc. After what period of time not actually GMing or playing =
should you=20
loose your vote?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Its better to leave =
things as they=20
are, and maybe looking at&nbsp; the issue of allowing proxy votes for =
those who=20
like Bernard are active and regularly GMing but are kept from the =
meeting by=20
work or other such&nbsp;commitments.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Helen.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004E_01C88041.B9CBCD30--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting on line/Proxies.
FromBernard Hoggins
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 11:44:42 +1100 (EST)
--0-1749720266-1204850682=:7516
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Even though I'd seem to be the one who sparked this discussion with the proxy question, I'm still in favour of voting happening at the gods meetings still.

This has a double effect in keeping it face to face as I see it.

Firstly, face to face, we can discuss things very fast compared to E-mail, and we can actually see the people at the other end, which helps reduce any misunderstandings.  E-mail is toneless after all and sometimes very hard to read in terms of why a person is saying the things they are.

Secondly, it ensures that the people making the votes are the people activly involved at the time.  DQ has been around a long time and anyone who has GM'ed in that lengthy time is technically allowed to show up to a gods meeting as I understand it, which is a LOT of people.  If we moved to voting online, any of those people could then vote even if they haven't shown for 10 years or played for 5 or whatever.  Having to actually turn up to a meeting shows a commitment to the active DQ guild still.


As for proxy votes, perhaps something to be voted on at the next gods meeting as to if we allow them and how to handle them since it seems unclear at the moment.  This meeting is probably too close to allow decent discussion and drawing up of clear procedures, as proxy votes being used to stack something is an issue judging from comments people have made.

Bernard

       
---------------------------------
Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address.
--0-1749720266-1204850682=:7516
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Even though I'd seem to be the one who sparked this discussion with the proxy question, I'm still in favour of voting happening at the gods meetings still.<br><br>This has a double effect in keeping it face to face as I see it.<br><br>Firstly, face to face, we can discuss things very fast compared to E-mail, and we can actually see the people at the other end, which helps reduce any misunderstandings.&nbsp; E-mail is toneless after all and sometimes very hard to read in terms of why a person is saying the things they are.<br><br>Secondly, it ensures that the people making the votes are the people activly involved at the time.&nbsp; DQ has been around a long time and anyone who has GM'ed in that lengthy time is technically allowed to show up to a gods meeting as I understand it, which is a LOT of people.&nbsp; If we moved to voting online, any of those people could then vote even if they haven't shown for 10 years or played for 5 or whatever.&nbsp; Having to actually turn up
 to a meeting shows a commitment to the active DQ guild still.<br><br><br>As for proxy votes, perhaps something to be voted on at the next gods meeting as to if we allow them and how to handle them since it seems unclear at the moment.&nbsp; This meeting is probably too close to allow decent discussion and drawing up of clear procedures, as proxy votes being used to stack something is an issue judging from comments people have made.<br><br>Bernard<br><p>&#32;


      <hr size=1>
Get the name you always wanted with the <a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/y7mail/default/*http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail/?p1=ni&p2=general&p3=tagline&p4=other" target=_blank>new y7mail email address</a>.

--0-1749720266-1204850682=:7516--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Voting on line/Proxies.
FromJonathan Bean
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 13:48:47 +1300
------=_Part_21730_16749906.1204850927746
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Hi Bernard,

As I understand our current system (which may or may not change over time)
we do not have proxy votes accepted at the Gods meetings.

Jono

On 07/03/2008, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Even though I'd seem to be the one who sparked this discussion with the
> proxy question, I'm still in favour of voting happening at the gods meetings
> still.
>
> This has a double effect in keeping it face to face as I see it.
>
> Firstly, face to face, we can discuss things very fast compared to E-mail,
> and we can actually see the people at the other end, which helps reduce any
> misunderstandings.  E-mail is toneless after all and sometimes very hard to
> read in terms of why a person is saying the things they are.
>
> Secondly, it ensures that the people making the votes are the people
> activly involved at the time.  DQ has been around a long time and anyone who
> has GM'ed in that lengthy time is technically allowed to show up to a gods
> meeting as I understand it, which is a LOT of people.  If we moved to voting
> online, any of those people could then vote even if they haven't shown for
> 10 years or played for 5 or whatever.  Having to actually turn up to a
> meeting shows a commitment to the active DQ guild still.
>
>
> As for proxy votes, perhaps something to be voted on at the next gods
> meeting as to if we allow them and how to handle them since it seems unclear
> at the moment.  This meeting is probably too close to allow decent
> discussion and drawing up of clear procedures, as proxy votes being used to
> stack something is an issue judging from comments people have made.
>
> Bernard
>
> ------------------------------
> Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address<http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/y7mail/default/*http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail/?p1=ni&p2=general&p3=tagline&p4=other>.
>
>
>


-- 
Jonathan Bean

H: +64 9 828 2959
M: +64 21 917 173
G: jonobean@gmail.com

------=_Part_21730_16749906.1204850927746
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Hi Bernard,<br><br>As I understand our current system (which may or may not change over time) we do not have proxy votes accepted at the Gods meetings.<br><br>Jono<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 07/03/2008, <b class="gmail_sendername">Bernard Hoggins</b> &lt;<a href="mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Even though I&#39;d seem to be the one who sparked this discussion with the proxy question, I&#39;m still in favour of voting happening at the gods meetings still.<br><br>This has a double effect in keeping it face to face as I see it.<br>
<br>Firstly, face to face, we can discuss things very fast compared to E-mail, and we can actually see the people at the other end, which helps reduce any misunderstandings.&nbsp; E-mail is toneless after all and sometimes very hard to read in terms of why a person is saying the things they are.<br>
<br>Secondly, it ensures that the people making the votes are the people activly involved at the time.&nbsp; DQ has been around a long time and anyone who has GM&#39;ed in that lengthy time is technically allowed to show up to a gods meeting as I understand it, which is a LOT of people.&nbsp; If we moved to voting online, any of those people could then vote even if they haven&#39;t shown for 10 years or played for 5 or whatever.&nbsp; Having to actually turn up
 to a meeting shows a commitment to the active DQ guild still.<br><br><br>As for proxy votes, perhaps something to be voted on at the next gods meeting as to if we allow them and how to handle them since it seems unclear at the moment.&nbsp; This meeting is probably too close to allow decent discussion and drawing up of clear procedures, as proxy votes being used to stack something is an issue judging from comments people have made.<br>
<br>Bernard<br><p> 


      </p><hr size="1">
Get the name you always wanted with the <a href="http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/taglines/au/y7mail/default/*http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail/?p1=ni&amp;p2=general&amp;p3=tagline&amp;p4=other" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">new y7mail email address</a>.
<p></p></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Jonathan Bean<br><br>H: +64 9 828 2959<br>M: +64 21 917 173<br>G: <a href="mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a>

------=_Part_21730_16749906.1204850927746--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Mage Current -- speed etc
FromMichael Parkinson
DateFri, 7 Mar 2008 18:08:03 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C88011.38CEA5F6
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is the false analogy

	You might as well say that fly spells should be removed becuase
humans don't naturally have wings.

	=20

	A false analogy; which was so irritating that I almost missed an
interesting comment from the same writer.

	=20

	False?

	=20

=20


------_=_NextPart_001_01C88011.38CEA5F6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:SimSun;
	panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
	{font-family:SimSun;
	panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Tahoma;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Verdana;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:"\@SimSun";
	panose-1:2 1 6 0 3 1 1 1 1 1;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0cm;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
p
	{mso-style-priority:99;
	mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0cm;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0cm;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ecmsochpdefault, li.ecmsochpdefault, div.ecmsochpdefault
	{mso-style-name:ec_msochpdefault;
	mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0cm;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0cm;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
p.ecmsochpdefault1, li.ecmsochpdefault1, div.ecmsochpdefault1
	{mso-style-name:ec_msochpdefault1;
	mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0cm;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0cm;
	font-size:10.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
span.EmailStyle20
	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
	font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
	color:windowtext;
	font-weight:normal;
	font-style:normal;
	text-decoration:none none;}
.MsoChpDefault
	{mso-style-type:export-only;
	font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
	{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
	margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
  <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
 </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>

<body lang=3DEN-NZ link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>This is the
false analogy<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:red'>You might as well say that fly spells should be removed =
becuase
humans don't naturally have wings.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:red'>&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>A
false analogy; which was so irritating that I almost missed an =
interesting
comment from the same writer.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";
color:blue'>False?</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C88011.38CEA5F6--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --