| Subject | Re: [dq] Ships etc ... |
|---|---|
| From | Andrew Withy |
| Date | Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:20:40 +1300 |
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The current ships stuff was put together from a couple of days of reading
the wiki, the old ships supplement, and tweaking numbers to be comparable
and to make the "better" ships better. When in doubt, I added a knot or two
more speed. The numbers could easily be wrong, particularly the angles to
wind. The length and tonnage are median or typical figures - e.g. tonnage
varies by x5.
Any informed commentary that wishes to tweak the numbers should be
encouraged, being in mind that the ships are supposed to be "balanced" by
cost, speed, tech rating, and size. The Caravel is intended to be the best
adventuring ship, as that is what explorers and adventurers used in C1500.
The Longship is also a good cheap option. The Elven Trimarans are there to
make us adventurers weep and turn green with envy, as the Sea Elves just
have better tech/magic in this specialist area than us.
I really like Helen's comments about Knots/Force, and think it's an
excellent rule of thumb, with a note that the Max Wind Force & Best Sail
Speed for a ship are similar but not identical.
Andrew
_____
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Tuesday, 11 March 2008 4:18 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Ships etc ...
Must be an old GMs Guide cKeith ause I have some stuff on Ships in mine on
pages 21-24.
Speaking of Ships
While trolling around the Net looking for data on the speeds of old sailing
vessels I had problems finding hard data on the speeds of the various types
of vessels because if speeds were given it was usually a max and gave no
indication of how strong a wind was needed to get this.
Then I found this paper on the sailing properties of the Hanse Cog they dug
out of the mud in some Port and used both wind tunnel and sea trials with a
replica to get the data for.
While most of the speed stuff was in mathematical formulas they had produced
a very nice table which showed the ships average speed over all courses to
the wind in relation to wind speed. And roughly it worked out that the speed
of this boat in knots was roughly the same as the Force of the wind. i.e.
that in a force 4 wind it averaged 4 knots as it tacked along and in a
force 6 wind it averaged 6
The stuff below is copied from this report
A Hanse cog was discovered during dredging work in the port of Bremen in
1962. The cog's construction was dated to the year 1380 by means of
dendrochronological analysis. Until this finding was made, virtually nothing
was known about the shape and rigging of Hanse cogs. The sole source for
information on their appearance had been illustrations on seal impressions,
which provide only an approximate idea. Accounts of possible traveling
speeds vary greatly, i.e. between 3.3 and 10 knots; data on weather
conditions and wind directions are completely absent from reports.
The Hanse cog's average statistical speeds for all courses to the wind,
calculated from the readings, were:
Beaufort
average ship
speed over all
courses to the wind
3
3.4 kn
4
4.0 kn
5
5.1 kn
6
6.0 kn
Sailing on a reach with a wind of Bft. 7, the ship attained a speed of 8
knots for short periods; this reading corresponds to a Froude number of 0.3.
I have a similar top speed for Longships of 8 knots... Looking at this I
suspect its because no one is game to go sailing in anything more than a
force 7 or so gale, higher winds are storm conditions.
As the subject of Mage wind as a means of moving a vessel was put forward at
the gods meeting this data gives you all an Idea of why I said that Mage
wind is no problem and even using both the boats max sailing speed is its
unchanged as Sailing Ships don't go the wind speed.
Mage wind only gets strong enough for a good strong breeze at max rank
(force 6), and this relationship between sailing speed and wind force means
that all the air mage is able to give the ship is the Idea wind to get its
max speed from.( A good strong breeze being what the GMs Guide means by
'fair conditions, IMO.)
Where the mage has less than max rank you can use the winds Force to
guestimate the proportion of the max speed you can achieve. e.g. at rank 0
the wind speed is 5 mph or force 2 so 2/6th of max speed: or at rank 6 it
would be 11mph or force 3 so ship speed is 3/6 or 1/2 max sailing speed.
Thus we get some nice rules of thumb for GMing sailing ships the Average
speed of a ship in a natural (but not ideal) wind is the wind force and the
speed of a ship under an Ideal or mage wind is its 1/6th its max speed x
the force of that wind.
Helen
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The current ships stuff was put =
together
from a couple of days of reading the wiki, the old ships supplement, and
tweaking numbers to be comparable and to make the “better” =
ships
better. When in doubt, I added a knot or two more speed. The numbers =
could
easily be wrong, particularly the angles to wind. The length and tonnage =
are
median or typical figures – e.g. tonnage varies by =
x5.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Any informed commentary that wishes =
to
tweak the numbers should be encouraged, being in mind that the ships are
supposed to be “balanced” by cost, speed, tech rating, and =
size. The
Caravel is intended to be the best adventuring ship, as that is what =
explorers
and adventurers used in C1500. The Longship is also a good cheap option. =
The
Elven Trimarans are there to make us adventurers weep and turn green =
with envy,
as the Sea Elves just have better tech/magic in this specialist area =
than us.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I really like Helen’s =
comments about
Knots/Force, and think it’s an excellent rule of thumb, with a =
note that the
Max Wind Force & Best Sail Speed for a ship are similar but not =
identical.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andrew<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Helen Saggers<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 11 March =
2008 4:18
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Ships =
etc ... </span></font><span
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Must be an old GMs Guide cKeith =
ause I
have some stuff on Ships in mine on pages =
21-24.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Speaking of Ships =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>While trolling around the Net =
looking for
data on the speeds of old sailing vessels I had problems finding hard =
data on
the speeds of the various types of vessels because if speeds =
were
given it was usually a max and gave no indication of how strong a wind =
was
needed to get this.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Then I found this paper =
on the
sailing properties of the Hanse Cog they dug out of the mud in =
some Port
and used both wind tunnel and sea trials with a replica to get =
the
data for.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>While most of the speed stuff was =
in
mathematical formulas they had produced a very nice table which showed =
the
ships average speed over all courses to the wind in relation to =
wind
speed. And roughly it worked out that the speed of this boat in knots =
was
roughly the same as the Force of the wind. i.e. that in a =
force 4
wind it averaged 4 knots as it tacked along and in a =
force 6
wind it averaged 6 </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The stuff below is copied from this =
report</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A
Hanse cog was discovered during dredging work in the <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on">port</st1:PlaceType> of <st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Bremen</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>
in 1962. The cog's construction was dated to the year 1380 by means of
dendrochronological analysis. Until this finding was made, virtually =
nothing
was known about the shape and rigging of Hanse cogs. The sole source for
information on their appearance had been illustrations on seal =
impressions,
which provide only an approximate idea. Accounts of possible traveling =
speeds
vary greatly, i.e. between 3.3 and 10 knots; data on weather conditions =
and
wind directions are completely absent from reports. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The
Hanse cog's average statistical speeds for all courses to the wind, =
calculated
from the readings, were:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div align=3Dcenter>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D1 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Beaufort </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>average ship <br>
speed over all <br>
courses to the wind </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3.4 =
kn</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>4</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>4.0 =
kn</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>5</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>5.1 =
kn</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>6</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
</td>
<td style=3D'padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>6.0 =
kn</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>
<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Sailing
on a reach with a wind of Bft. 7, the ship attained a speed of 8 knots =
for
short periods; this reading corresponds to a Froude number of 0.3. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I<font
color=3Dblue><span style=3D'color:blue'> have a similar top speed for =
Longships of
8 knots... Looking at this I suspect its because no one is game to go =
sailing
in anything more than a force 7 or so gale, higher winds are storm =
conditions. </span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>As the subject of Mage wind as a means of moving a =
vessel was
put forward at the gods meeting this data gives you all an Idea of =
why I
said that Mage wind is no problem and even using both the boats max =
sailing
speed is its unchanged as <strong><b><font face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:
Arial'>Sailing Ships don't go the wind speed. =
</span></font></b></strong></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Mage wind only gets strong enough for a good strong =
breeze at
max rank (force 6), and this relationship between sailing speed and wind =
force
means that all the air mage is able to give the ship is the Idea wind to =
get
its max speed from.( A good strong breeze being what the GMs =
Guide
means by 'fair conditions, IMO.)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Where the mage has less than max rank you can use the
winds Force to guestimate the proportion of the max speed you can =
achieve.
e.g. at rank 0 the wind speed is 5 mph or force 2 so 2/6th of max speed:
or at rank 6 it would be 11mph or force 3 so ship speed is 3/6 or =
1/2 max
sailing speed.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><strong><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Thus we get some nice rules of thumb =
for
GMing sailing ships the Average speed of a ship in a natural =
(but not
ideal) wind is the wind force and the speed of a ship under an Ideal
or mage wind is its 1/6th its max speed x the force of that =
wind.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>Helen</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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| |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Ships etc ... |
|---|---|
| From | Ian Wood |
| Date | Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:22:03 +1100 (EST) |
--0-974907735-1205277723=:73799
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a hard copy of the ships supplement - which i think Martin created f=
rom several sources (trimming the copyright?)=0AI can scan and email or ask=
someone to put on the dq wiki site.=0A=0AIMO, historical ships discussed i=
n literature were typically only the European ships, as the world view of t=
he authors was that all others were inferior. (I recall that English histor=
ians said that maori could not have deliberately crossed the pacific before=
the europeans crossed the atlantic. wrong in so many counts.)=0A=0ADiffere=
nt designs (such as lateen rigged) had different characteristics up wind. A=
nd some like the caravel incorporated square and lateen rigs. Simple, small=
, light lateens were great for river travel where there were changeable win=
ds.=0AWe play in a magical realm, with different races. One of the benefits=
of this is the ability to warp wood, or bone or similar, to any shape and =
make it waterproof, so that, with thought and experience something like the=
wave piercing designs used for Earth race http://www.earthrace.net/index.p=
hp?section=3D42 would be available, especially for sea-elves.=0AAnd yes, th=
is is really looks modern, but hey, so could elves. Modern large bulk carri=
ers can have almost no streamlining as they are big enough to shoulder thei=
r way through waves, making them more blunt nosed that old style galleons e=
tc. And a similar craft, made out of bone and propelled by mage current and=
wind whistle, would fit in on alusia.=0A=0AFor me, simple is best, especia=
lly for travel. Bligh spent something like 3 months trying to sail westward=
s past Cape Horn - IIRC they could see the cape for many weeks at a time on=
ly to be pushed eastwards by another storm - and in the end he sailed the o=
ther way around the world to Tahiti and the bread fruits. This would make f=
or boring play. =0AEasier to say that few ship designs could sail closer th=
an 55 degrees off the wind, and some (square rigs) could only sail downwind=
, so that speeds made good can vary from maximum speed to, say, one third o=
f that. Speciallised sloops etc could sail up to say 35 degrees off the win=
d and hence their speed made good was only reduced by, say, half.=0AWell cr=
afted ships could sail closer still, but would probably (IIRC) make their b=
est speed made good at about 25 degrees off the wind, so speed reduced by s=
ay, a quarter. =0A=0AIn conclusion then, if my limited time looking at this=
is comprehensive, speed-made-good is a function of (navigational skill, di=
rection relative to wind, wind strength, maximum speed of boat, hull stabil=
ity, sea state). The GM controls the wind direction, wind speed and the sea=
state, so all they need do is look at the maximum speed of the boat, facto=
r in weird magics (unbreakable sails and rigging on a ship that stays uprig=
ht in the wind would be good) and give a speed made good that suits the nee=
ds of the GM - they can then back analyse to say that it is windy that day.=
The rest, tacking etc, is dressing for the PC that wants to use their navi=
gator skills but should not do more than improve speed made good by 50%.=0A=
=0AI do really like the idea of humans grunting and groaning to get a 300 t=
on ship to tack up wind whilst they are past by a 20,000 ton barge crewed b=
y two elves, and a 500 ton elvish yacht screams by with a rooster tail and =
the pop of champagne. And i ignore the aeir ship that brings fresh provissi=
ons for the play mates on the yacht.=0A=0AIan=0A=0A=0A----- Original Messag=
e ----=0AFrom: Helen Saggers <Helen@darksoft.co.nz>=0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=
=0ASent: Tuesday, 11 March, 2008 4:17:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: [dq] Ships etc .=
...=0A=0A=0AMust be an old GMs Guide cKeith ause I have some stuff on Ships =
in mine on pages 21-24.=0A =0ASpeaking of Ships =0A =0AWhile trolling aroun=
d the Net looking for data on the speeds of old sailing vessels I had probl=
ems finding hard data on the speeds of the various types of vessels because=
if speeds were given it was usually a max and gave no indication of how st=
rong a wind was needed to get this.=0AThen I found this paper on the sailin=
g properties of the Hanse Cog they dug out of the mud in some Port and used=
both wind tunnel and sea trials with a replica to get the data for.=0AWhil=
e most of the speed stuff was in mathematical formulas they had produced a =
very nice table which showed the ships average speed over all courses to th=
e wind in relation to wind speed. And roughly it worked out that the speed =
of this boat in knots was roughly the same as the Force of the wind. i.e. t=
hat in a force 4 wind it averaged 4 knots as it tacked along and in a forc=
e 6 wind it averaged 6 =0AThe stuff below is copied from this report=0AA Ha=
nse cog was discovered during dredging work in the port of Bremen in 1962. =
The cog's construction was dated to the year 1380 by means of dendrochronol=
ogical analysis. Until this finding was made, virtually nothing was known a=
bout the shape and rigging of Hanse cogs. The sole source for information o=
n their appearance had been illustrations on seal impressions, which provid=
e only an approximate idea. Accounts of possible traveling speeds vary grea=
tly, i.e. between 3.3 and 10 knots; data on weather conditions and wind dir=
ections are completely absent from reports. =0AThe Hanse cog's average stat=
istical speeds for all courses to the wind, calculated from the readings, w=
ere:=0ABeaufort average ship =0Aspeed over all =0Acourses to the wind =0A33=
..4 kn=0A44.0 kn=0A55.1 kn=0A66.0 kn=0A=0ASailing on a reach with a wind of =
Bft. 7, the ship attained a speed of 8 knots for short periods; this readin=
g corresponds to a Froude number of 0.3. =0AI have a similar top speed for =
Longships of 8 knots... Looking at this I suspect its because no one is gam=
e to go sailing in anything more than a force 7 or so gale, higher winds ar=
e storm conditions. =0AAs the subject of Mage wind as a means of moving a v=
essel was put forward at the gods meeting this data gives you all an Idea o=
f why I said that Mage wind is no problem and even using both the boats max=
sailing speed is its unchanged as Sailing Ships don't go the wind speed. =
=0AMage wind only gets strong enough for a good strong breeze at max rank (=
force 6), and this relationship between sailing speed and wind force means =
that all the air mage is able to give the ship is the Idea wind to get its =
max speed from.( A good strong breeze being what the GMs Guide means by 'fa=
ir conditions, IMO.)=0AWhere the mage has less than max rank you can use th=
e winds Force to guestimate the proportion of the max speed you can achieve=
.. e.g. at rank 0 the wind speed is 5 mph or force 2 so 2/6th of max speed: =
or at rank 6 it would be 11mph or force 3 so ship speed is 3/6 or 1/2 max =
sailing speed.=0AThus we get some nice rules of thumb for GMing sailing sh=
ips the Average speed of a ship in a natural (but not ideal) wind is the wi=
nd force and the speed of a ship under an Ideal or mage wind is its 1/6th =
its max speed x the force of that wind.=0AHelen
--0-974907735-1205277723=:73799
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman=
, new york, times, serif">I have a hard copy of the ships supplement - whic=
h i think Martin created from several sources (trimming the copyright?)</DI=
V>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york,=
times, serif">I can scan and email or ask someone to put on the dq wiki si=
te.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, ne=
w york, times, serif"> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FA=
MILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">IMO, historical ships d=
iscussed in literature were typically only the European ships, as the world=
view of the authors was that all others were inferior. (I recall that Engl=
ish historians said that maori could not have deliberately crossed the paci=
fic before the europeans crossed the atlantic. wrong in so many counts.)</D=
IV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york=
, times, serif"> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
times new roman, new york, times, serif">Different designs (such as lateen =
rigged) had different characteristics up wind. And some like the caravel in=
corporated square and lateen rigs. Simple, small, light lateens were g=
reat for river travel where there were changeable winds.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">=
We play in a magical realm, with different races. One of the benefits of th=
is is the ability to warp wood, or bone or similar, to any shape and make i=
t waterproof, so that, with thought and experience something like the wave =
piercing designs used for Earth race <A href=3D"http://www.earthrace.net/in=
dex.php?section=3D42">http://www.earthrace.net/index.php?section=3D42</A>&n=
bsp;would be available, especially for sea-elves.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">=
And yes, this is really looks modern, but hey, so could elves. Modern large=
bulk carriers can have almost no streamlining as they are big enough to sh=
oulder their way through waves, making them more blunt nosed that old style=
galleons etc. And a similar craft, made out of bone and propelled by mage =
current and wind whistle, would fit in on alusia.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> <=
/DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new yo=
rk, times, serif">For me, simple is best, especially for travel. Bligh spen=
t something like 3 months trying to sail westwards past Cape Horn - IIRC th=
ey could see the cape for many weeks at a time only to be pushed eastwards =
by another storm - and in the end he sailed the other way around the world =
to Tahiti and the bread fruits. This would make for boring play. </DIV>=0A<=
DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times=
, serif">Easier to say that few ship designs could sail closer than 55 degr=
ees off the wind, and some (square rigs) could only sail downwind, so that =
speeds made good can vary from maximum speed to, say, one third of that. Sp=
eciallised sloops etc could sail up to say 35 degrees off the wind and henc=
e their speed made good was only reduced by, say, half.</DIV>=0A<DIV s=
tyle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, ser=
if">Well crafted ships could sail closer still, but would probably (IIRC) m=
ake their best speed made good at about 25 degrees off the wind, so speed r=
educed by say, a quarter. </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMI=
LY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"F=
ONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">In co=
nclusion then, if my limited time looking at this is comprehensive, speed-m=
ade-good is a function of (navigational skill, direction relative to wind, =
wind strength, maximum speed of boat, hull stability, sea state). The GM co=
ntrols the wind direction, wind speed and the sea state, so all they need d=
o is look at the maximum speed of the boat, factor in weird magics (unbreak=
able sails and rigging on a ship that stays upright in the wind would be go=
od) and give a speed made good that suits the needs of the GM - they can th=
en back analyse to say that it is windy that day. The rest, tacking etc, is=
dressing for the PC that wants to use their navigator skills but should no=
t do more than improve speed made good by 50%.<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FO=
NT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">I do r=
eally like the idea of humans grunting and groaning to get a 300 ton ship t=
o tack up wind whilst they are past by a 20,000 ton barge crewed by two elv=
es, and a 500 ton elvish yacht screams by with a rooster tail and the pop o=
f champagne. And i ignore the aeir ship that brings fresh provissions for t=
he play mates on the yacht.</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAM=
ILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"=
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">Ian<=
/DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new yo=
rk, times, serif"><BR> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FA=
MILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<=
BR>From: Helen Saggers <Helen@darksoft.co.nz><BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<=
BR>Sent: Tuesday, 11 March, 2008 4:17:54 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Ships etc =
....<BR><BR>=0A<STYLE></STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Must be an old GMs Guide cKeith ause I have some stuff on Ships in=
mine on pages 21-24.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000f=
f size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff si=
ze=3D2>Speaking of Ships </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0=
000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000f=
f size=3D2>While trolling around the Net looking for data on the speeds of =
old sailing vessels I had problems finding hard data on the speeds of =
the various types of vessels because if speeds were given it was usual=
ly a max and gave no indication of how strong a wind was needed to get this=
..</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Then =
;I found this paper on the sailing properties of the Hanse Cog they du=
g out of the mud in some Port and used both wind tunnel and =
sea trials with a replica to get the data for.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT fa=
ce=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>While most of the speed stuff was in ma=
thematical formulas they had produced a very nice table which showed the sh=
ips average speed over all courses to the wind in relation to wind spe=
ed. And roughly it worked out that the speed of this boat in knots was roug=
hly the same as the Force of the wind. i.e. that in a force 4 win=
d it averaged 4 knots as it tacked along and in a force 6 w=
ind it averaged 6 </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff s=
ize=3D2>The stuff below is copied from this report</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<=
P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A Hanse cog was discovered during dredging wo=
rk in the port of Bremen in 1962. The cog's construction was dated to the y=
ear 1380 by means of dendrochronological analysis. Until this finding was m=
ade, virtually nothing was known about the shape and rigging of Hanse cogs.=
The sole source for information on their appearance had been illustrations=
on seal impressions, which provide only an approximate idea. Accounts of p=
ossible traveling speeds vary greatly, i.e. between 3.3 and 10 knots; data =
on weather conditions and wind directions are completely absent from report=
s. </FONT></P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Hanse cog=
's average statistical speeds for all courses to the wind, calculated from =
the readings, were:</FONT></P>=0A<CENTER>=0A<TABLE border=3D1>=0A<TBODY>=0A=
<TR>=0A<TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Beaufort </FONT></TD>=0A<TD>=0A<CENT=
ER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>average ship <BR>speed over all <BR>co=
urses to the wind </FONT></P></CENTER></TD></TR>=0A<TR>=0A<TD vAlign=3Dcent=
er align=3Dmiddle><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3</FONT></TD>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTE=
R>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3.4 kn</FONT></P></CENTER></TD></TR>=0A=
<TR>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4</FONT></P></CENTE=
R></TD>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>4.0 kn</FONT></P=
></CENTER></TD></TR>=0A<TR>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=
=3D2>5</FONT></P></CENTER></TD>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial s=
ize=3D2>5.1 kn</FONT></P></CENTER></TD></TR>=0A<TR>=0A<TD>=0A<CENTER>=0A<P>=
<FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6</FONT></P></CENTER></TD>=0A<TD vAlign=3Dcente=
r align=3Dmiddle><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6.0 kn</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY=
></TABLE></CENTER>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sailing on a reach with=
a wind of Bft. 7, the ship attained a speed of 8 knots for short periods; =
this reading corresponds to a Froude number of 0.3. </FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>I<FONT color=3D#0000ff> have a similar top speed for =
Longships of 8 knots... Looking at this I suspect its because no one is gam=
e to go sailing in anything more than a force 7 or so gale, higher winds ar=
e storm conditions. </FONT></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000=
0ff size=3D2>As the subject of Mage wind as a means of moving a vessel was =
put forward at the gods meeting this data gives you all an Idea of why=
I said that Mage wind is no problem and even using both the boats max sail=
ing speed is its unchanged as <STRONG>Sailing Ships don't go the wind speed=
.. </STRONG></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Mag=
e wind only gets strong enough for a good strong breeze at max rank (force =
6), and this relationship between sailing speed and wind force means that a=
ll the air mage is able to give the ship is the Idea wind to get its max sp=
eed from.( A good strong breeze being what the GMs Guide means by=
'fair conditions, IMO.)</FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=
size=3D2>Where the mage has less than max rank you can use the winds =
Force to guestimate the proportion of the max speed you can achieve. e.g. a=
t rank 0 the wind speed is 5 mph or force 2 so 2/6th of max speed: or =
at rank 6 it would be 11mph or force 3 so ship speed is 3/6 or 1/2 max sai=
ling speed.</FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><ST=
RONG>Thus we get some nice rules of thumb for GMing sailing ships the=
Average speed of a ship in a natural (but not ideal) wind is the=
wind force and the speed of a ship under an Ideal or mage wind =
is its 1/6th its max speed x the force of that wind.</STRONG></FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Helen</FONT></P></DIV></DIV>=
=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, t=
imes, serif"><BR></DIV></div></body></html>
--0-974907735-1205277723=:73799--
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