SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromMichael Woodhams
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:32:23 +1200
Stephen Martin wrote:
> The '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 - Rk days to Regen vital organs and the (size of the missing
> piece on the _player_ in inches)
GM: "Hm, how long will this take? Bob, here's a ruler, now drop your 
trousers."


> At least the Organ regen time was based on Rk, sort of!  It took 15 - Rk days but could only be
> done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)
>   
Demons lords get to regenerate organs in a pulse (but still take a month 
to do a leg.) Andrew Withy did something like this to us once - the 
demon (expecting us) had prepared a pile of fresh corpses, and 
pulse-resurrected them to mess up the 1/3 of the party who were death 
aspected.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromIan Wood
DateThu, 24 Apr 2008 10:31:47 +1000 (EST)
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yay - I vote for sane, simple rules that ignore reality once magic kicks in=
..=0A=0AWe could just say there is no benefit being rank 10 rather than rank=
 9 for this, and demons can suck air.=0A=0AIf variable time is 'such a majo=
r component of this skill, then something like a range of 24 hours (-2/Rank=
 over 9) to 72 hours (-6/Rank over 9) to 168 hours (-10/Rank over 9) depend=
ing on volume. =0AAFterall, you cannot do this until Rank 9, so the base ti=
me should be at the entry point. =0A=0A=0Aa shorter amount of time may be r=
equired to reattach or if a major amount is still there.=0A=0AIan=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Errol Cavit <ecavit@tollnz.co.nz>=
=0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=0ASent: Thursday, 24 April, 2008 9:39:51 AM=0ASubjec=
t: Re: [dq] Healer - Regeneration=0A=0A=0AOverall, I'd be happy with Rules =
for min and max times (rank based), and guidelines for the GM on where in t=
hat range to choose. Trying to set a hard rule that works in every situatio=
n isn't worth the effort IMO, as GMs will fudge it to do what works anyway.=
=0ACheers =0AErrol =0A-----Original Message----- =0AFrom: dq-owner@dq.sf.or=
g.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of =0AStephen Martin =0ASent: =
Wednesday, 23 April 2008 17:15 =0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz =0ASubject: Re: [dq] =
Healer - Regeneration =0A=0A=0AThe '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 - Rk days=
 to Regen vital organs and the (size of the missing =0Apiece on the _player=
_ in inches) days to Regen missing body parts. =0AObviously even more insan=
e than the current rules in that it would take longer to regenerate my =0AH=
alfling's arm than it would to regenerate your Giants arm because I'm talle=
r.  And no benefit for =0Abeing Rk 10 over Rk 9. =0AAt least the Organ rege=
n time was based on Rk, sort of!  It took 15 - Rk days but could only be =
=0Adone by Rk 10 Healers. :-) =0AI guess that the 1 week was a compromise b=
etween the 5 days for organs and one month for legs. =0AAnd while it is an =
improvement over the v1.1 Healer, I think we can do better. =0A=0A=0AStruan=
 Judd wrote: =0A> The first thought that popped into my mind (and I think i=
t's from an =0A> older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hou=
rs (-4 per =0A> Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of the longest di=
mension to =0A> be regenerated. =0A> =0A> TTFN, Struan =0A> =0A=0A=0A-- to =
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><P>yay - I vote for sane, simple rules that ignore reality =
once magic kicks in.</P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P>We could&nbsp;just say there =
is no benefit being rank 10 rather than rank 9 for this, and demons can suc=
k air.</P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P>If variable time is 'such a major component=
 of this skill, then something like a range of 24 hours (-2/Rank over 9) to=
 72 hours (-6/Rank over 9) to 168 hours (-10/Rank over 9) depending on volu=
me. </P>=0A<P>AFterall, you cannot do this until Rank 9, so the base time s=
hould be at the entry point. </P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P>a sh=
orter amount of time may be required to reattach or if a major amount is st=
ill there.</P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<P>Ian</P>=0A<P>&nbsp;</P>=0A<DIV style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR=
><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new yo=
rk, times, serif">----- Original Message ----<BR>From: Errol Cavit &lt;ecav=
it@tollnz.co.nz&gt;<BR>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR>Sent: Thursday, 24 April, 200=
8 9:39:51 AM<BR>Subject: Re: [dq] Healer - Regeneration<BR><BR>=0A<P><FONT =
size=3D2>Overall, I'd be happy with Rules for min and max times (rank based=
), and guidelines for the GM on where in that range to choose. Trying to se=
t a hard rule that works in every situation isn't worth the effort IMO, as =
GMs will fudge it to do what works anyway.</FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT size=3D2>C=
heers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Errol</FONT> </P>=0A<P><FONT size=3D2>-----=
Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=
 [<A href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow y=
mailto=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]On=
 Behalf Of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Stephen Martin</FONT> <BR><FONT size=
=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 17:15</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>To: dq@=
dq.sf.org.nz</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] Healer - Regenerat=
ion</FONT> </P><BR>=0A<P><FONT size=3D2>The '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 =
- Rk days to Regen vital organs and the (size of the missing</FONT> <BR><FO=
NT size=3D2>piece on the _player_ in inches) days to Regen missing body par=
ts.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Obviously even more insane than the current r=
ules in that it would take longer to regenerate my</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D=
2>Halfling's arm than it would to regenerate your Giants arm because I'm ta=
ller.&nbsp; And no benefit for</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>being Rk 10 over R=
k 9.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>At least the Organ regen time was based on R=
k, sort of!&nbsp; It took 15 - Rk days but could only be</FONT> <BR><FONT s=
ize=3D2>done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)</FONT> </P>=0A<P><FONT size=3D2>I guess =
that the 1 week was a compromise between the 5 days for organs and one mont=
h for legs.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>And while it is an improvement over t=
he v1.1 Healer, I think we can do better.</FONT> </P><BR>=0A<P><FONT size=
=3D2>Struan Judd wrote:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; The first thought th=
at popped into my mind (and I think it's from an</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>=
&gt; older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hours (-4 per</=
FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of =
the longest dimension to</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; be regenerated.</FO=
NT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt; TTFN, Struan</FO=
NT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>&gt;</FONT> </P><BR>=0A<P><FONT size=3D2>-- to unsub=
scribe notify <A href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D_blank re=
l=3Dnofollow ymailto=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-request@d=
q.sf.org.nz</A> --</FONT> </P></DIV><BR></DIV></div></body></html>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromStruan Judd
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 16:47:32 +1200
The first thought that popped into my mind (and I think it's from an
older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hours (-4 per
Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of the longest dimension to
be regenerated.

TTFN, Struan

On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:
> Healer ver 1.3 (2006 Rulebook)
>
>  Regeneration
>  Time: 1 week (per organ or body part)
>
>  Can anyone give me a good reason why Regeneration is the only major Healer ability that does not
>  get faster to do as rank increases?
>
>  And does it bother anyone else that it takes the same amount of time to regenerate an arm as it
>  does a finger? - both are 'body parts'
>
>  Repair no longer applies and Regeneration comes in when more than half of something is missing.
>  But is that assessed on a muscle-by-muscle / bone-by-bone / organ-by-organ basis?
>  Or at the other extreme can I asses it at a holistic level? half of their body is still there so
>  it's Repair.
>
>  As an odd example:
>  Due to a freak magical accident, the left half of your left leg falls off.
>  A Rk 10 Healer can Repair this in 20 hours.
>  But if was the bottom half of your leg then that would be regeneration and it would take the same
>  Healer one week.
>
>  If I lose a toe, am I regenerating the toe (1 week) or repairing the foot (20 hours)?
>
>
>  Regen is the more powerful ability, it does the stuff repair can't.  That's fine, Regen is a Rk
>  9-10 ability and Repair is a Rk 5-7 ability.
>  But due to the time it takes Regen is effectively the poor cousin, in practice it only gets used
>  after the adventure is over or when the adventure depends on it and no items/wishes are available
>  to do the job faster.
>  It is more likely that the GM will introduce a 'force majuere' to fix the character and get the
>  story back on track than stalling things and having everyone sit around or roleplay a week of
>  waiting while the Healer in the party does their thing.
>
>  [rant mode off - or mostly off...]
>
>  I don't want to make Regen trivial.  But I think it needs to be on the same scale as Repair in
>  terms of time taken so that it is a viable option in the field without effectively stopping the
>  game for it to happen.
>
>  In terms of exact numbers and rules - I don't know yet, but I'm thinking Regen should take about
>  twice as along as it takes to repair.
>
>  Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
>  -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromStephen Martin
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:14:38 +1200 (NZST)
The '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 - Rk days to Regen vital organs and the (size of the missing
piece on the _player_ in inches) days to Regen missing body parts.
Obviously even more insane than the current rules in that it would take longer to regenerate my
Halfling's arm than it would to regenerate your Giants arm because I'm taller.  And no benefit for
being Rk 10 over Rk 9.
At least the Organ regen time was based on Rk, sort of!  It took 15 - Rk days but could only be
done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)

I guess that the 1 week was a compromise between the 5 days for organs and one month for legs.
And while it is an improvement over the v1.1 Healer, I think we can do better.


Struan Judd wrote:
> The first thought that popped into my mind (and I think it's from an
> older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hours (-4 per
> Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of the longest dimension to
> be regenerated.
>
> TTFN, Struan
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromMichael Woodhams
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:22:26 +1200
Struan Judd wrote:
> The first thought that popped into my mind (and I think it's from an
> older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hours (-4 per
> Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of the longest dimension to
> be regenerated.
>   
I'd tend to go for a base time + increment based on size, e.g. 8 hours + 
1 hour per inch. (Numbers are off the top of my head, no attempt made at 
play-balancing them.) This means that small regens take a non-negligible 
length of time, and large ones take time approximately proportional to 
the amount to be regenerated. The size increment could be by length, 
mass, volume or percentage of body mass/length. (Should it take twice as 
long to regenerate a giant's leg compared to a human's?) Length seems 
easiest to estimate, however. I'd also suggest that all wounds 
regenerate simultaniously: if you've lost four fingers, regenerating 
them takes no longer than regenerating one. This saves bizarre behaviour 
like, in the lost-four-fingers case, it being more sensible to cut off a 
bit more before regenerating. (One half hand instead of four separate 
fingers.)

Then you have to decide what is repairable and what requires 
regeneration. Perhaps repair is only capable of sticking stuff together 
(and maybe rearanging correctly if the wound was mangled.) Perhaps this 
is already clear - I don't have the rules to hand. So you couldn't 
replace missing body parts (no matter how minor) with repair, but you 
could make the stump nice and neat, or close up gashes.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromHelen Saggers
DateThu, 24 Apr 2008 00:41:46 +1200
In my Opinion use of the Any Healer ability Rk 4 and above is a Miracle

While Neutralize Poison and Repair may not be quite as big a miracle as 
Resurrection or Regeneration, the Healer is significantly reducing the 
amount of time it is taking the patient to recover from many months (if they 
survive that long) to a couple of days. And unlike the natural healing of 
potentially crippling injuries, the patient is not left with weakened, 
deformed limbs or malfunctioning organs.

Where Resurrection and Regeneration become Miracles in the rule book sense 
is that they Heal stuff that the body has no hope of  healing naturally you 
don't grow new limbs (unless your a troll) or come back from the dead.

However regrowing severed or missing limbs or organs doesn't strike me as 
being significantly more time consuming than for example, repairing a liver 
where a creature has bitten off a piece of it and the surrounding muscle, or 
fixing the broken and splintered bones and mangled tissue of a limb crushed 
by the impact of some heavy object.
One is still pseudo-magically altering speed and way which the tissue, bone 
etc. grow regardless of weather your replacing less than half a lost Liver 
or a whole one.

I can see that more skill is required to make the body regrow totally 
missing things as there is no template present, no tissue with a memory of 
how it should be put back together or made whole.
But as Stephen suggests regrowing half a liver should take half as long as 
regrowing a whole one.

I propose a formula for Regen similar to that of Repair where
Time: 85 hours-5/rank

Thus a rank nine healer regrows limbs in 40 hrs (holding the party up for 
only 2 days not 7) and a rank ten healer Regens in 35 which if timed right 
could only hold up a party for one full day (and 2 nights), just as a low 
ranked Repair would.

This also then covers those with 11 or more in the skill.

As for Jacqui's question about Adventurers collecting up the lost bits I'd 
go for the repair as long as the piece was not off the patient for many 
hours before the healer began the work.
The re-attachment of severed appendages in real life requires quick action 
less the cells die. Healer preservation may extend this time, but if in the 
time since the separation the stump has started to heal naturally, or the 
Patient had a healing on the stump (such as a skin graft) to prevent 
bleeding and infection. I would say it would no longer match the severed 
limb and a repair would no longer be possible, as for the Body a Repair 
would then be to finish Healing the stump as is, not join back to the lost 
part.

As keeping the stump clear of infection and preventing one from bleeding to 
death is not something that is practical or easy long term, if you can't get 
that bit put back on quickly the need to regrowing you limb later is the 
least of your worries.
And if we reduce the time required to grow back limbs etc as is suggested, 
the benefit from and thus the desire/need to re-attach severed bits would be 
reduced even further for those who do not have a healer that can perform a 
Repair right there at the time of severing.

 Helen


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromErrol Cavit
DateThu, 24 Apr 2008 09:39:51 +1200
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Overall, I'd be happy with Rules for min and max times (rank based), and
guidelines for the GM on where in that range to choose. Trying to set a hard
rule that works in every situation isn't worth the effort IMO, as GMs will
fudge it to do what works anyway.

Cheers
Errol

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]On Behalf Of
Stephen Martin
Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 17:15
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Healer - Regeneration


The '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 - Rk days to Regen vital organs and the
(size of the missing
piece on the _player_ in inches) days to Regen missing body parts.
Obviously even more insane than the current rules in that it would take
longer to regenerate my
Halfling's arm than it would to regenerate your Giants arm because I'm
taller.  And no benefit for
being Rk 10 over Rk 9.
At least the Organ regen time was based on Rk, sort of!  It took 15 - Rk
days but could only be
done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)

I guess that the 1 week was a compromise between the 5 days for organs and
one month for legs.
And while it is an improvement over the v1.1 Healer, I think we can do
better.


Struan Judd wrote:
> The first thought that popped into my mind (and I think it's from an
> older ruleset) is that the regeneration should take 48 hours (-4 per
> Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of the longest dimension to
> be regenerated.
>
> TTFN, Struan
>


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Overall, I'd be happy with Rules for min and max =
times (rank based), and guidelines for the GM on where in that range to =
choose. Trying to set a hard rule that works in every situation isn't =
worth the effort IMO, as GMs will fudge it to do what works =
anyway.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cheers</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Errol</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>]O=
n Behalf Of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Stephen Martin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Wednesday, 23 April 2008 17:15</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: [dq] Healer - Regeneration</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The '97 Rules version (1.1) was 15 - Rk days to Regen =
vital organs and the (size of the missing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>piece on the _player_ in inches) days to Regen =
missing body parts.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Obviously even more insane than the current rules in =
that it would take longer to regenerate my</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Halfling's arm than it would to regenerate your =
Giants arm because I'm taller.&nbsp; And no benefit for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>being Rk 10 over Rk 9.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>At least the Organ regen time was based on Rk, sort =
of!&nbsp; It took 15 - Rk days but could only be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I guess that the 1 week was a compromise between the =
5 days for organs and one month for legs.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>And while it is an improvement over the v1.1 Healer, =
I think we can do better.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Struan Judd wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The first thought that popped into my mind (and =
I think it's from an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; older ruleset) is that the regeneration should =
take 48 hours (-4 per</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Rank) times the size (in feet, minimum 1) of =
the longest dimension to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; be regenerated.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; TTFN, Struan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- to unsubscribe notify <A =
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Subject[dq-announce] DQ list test .. it's rollcall time
FromKeith Smith
DateThu, 17 Apr 2008 10:54:02 +1200
Could everyone who receives this.. please send back to private 
message, direct to me ...

Apparently there has been problems with emails - especially to Xtra 
so I'd like to test the list and see who's receiving this

Keith


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Subject[dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromStephen Martin
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 16:00:19 +1200 (NZST)
Healer ver 1.3 (2006 Rulebook)

Regeneration
Time: 1 week (per organ or body part)

Can anyone give me a good reason why Regeneration is the only major Healer ability that does not
get faster to do as rank increases?

And does it bother anyone else that it takes the same amount of time to regenerate an arm as it
does a finger? - both are 'body parts'

Repair no longer applies and Regeneration comes in when more than half of something is missing.
But is that assessed on a muscle-by-muscle / bone-by-bone / organ-by-organ basis?
Or at the other extreme can I asses it at a holistic level? half of their body is still there so
it's Repair.

As an odd example:
Due to a freak magical accident, the left half of your left leg falls off.
A Rk 10 Healer can Repair this in 20 hours.
But if was the bottom half of your leg then that would be regeneration and it would take the same
Healer one week.

If I lose a toe, am I regenerating the toe (1 week) or repairing the foot (20 hours)?


Regen is the more powerful ability, it does the stuff repair can't.  That's fine, Regen is a Rk
9-10 ability and Repair is a Rk 5-7 ability.
But due to the time it takes Regen is effectively the poor cousin, in practice it only gets used
after the adventure is over or when the adventure depends on it and no items/wishes are available
to do the job faster.
It is more likely that the GM will introduce a 'force majuere' to fix the character and get the
story back on track than stalling things and having everyone sit around or roleplay a week of
waiting while the Healer in the party does their thing.

[rant mode off - or mostly off...]

I don't want to make Regen trivial.  But I think it needs to be on the same scale as Repair in
terms of time taken so that it is a viable option in the field without effectively stopping the
game for it to happen.

In terms of exact numbers and rules - I don't know yet, but I'm thinking Regen should take about
twice as along as it takes to repair.

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromClare Baldock
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:33:59 +1200
On 23/04/2008, at 17:14 , Stephen Martin wrote:

> At least the Organ regen time was based on Rk, sort of!  It took 15  
> - Rk days but could only be
> done by Rk 10 Healers. :-)

Or rank 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15 healers :-)

cheers,

Clare


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer - Regeneration
FromJacqui Smith
DateWed, 23 Apr 2008 17:23:50 +1200
Healer ver 1.3 (2006 Rulebook)
> Regeneration
> Time: 1 week (per organ or body part)
>
> Can anyone give me a good reason why Regeneration is the only major Healer ability that does not
> get faster to do as rank increases?
>
> And does it bother anyone else that it takes the same amount of time to regenerate an arm as it
> does a finger? - both are 'body parts'
>
> Repair no longer applies and Regeneration comes in when more than half of something is missing.
> But is that assessed on a muscle-by-muscle / bone-by-bone / organ-by-organ basis?
> Or at the other extreme can I asses it at a holistic level? half of their body is still there so
> it's Repair.
>   
And what if the prudent adventurer gathers up the severed body part, has 
it preserved, and hands it to the healer and sayes please fix.... The 
healer rules don't cover this possibility at all, and yet the 
re-attachment of severed appendages is not uncommon in real life.  
Personally I think probably comes under repair.... and again the 
difficulty should depend on the mass of the severed part, and also on 
the cleaness of the cut as it were....

Jacqui


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